World Champion John John Florence On The Mindset of Elite Sport, Walking Away At His Peak & Why True Mastery Begins With Surrender

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rich Roll Podcast – World Champion John John Florence On The Mindset of Elite Sport, Walking Away At His Peak & Why True Mastery Begins With Surrender

Host: Rich Roll
Guest: John John Florence, Three-Time Surfing World Champion and Two-Time Olympian
Release Date: July 7, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this enlightening episode of The Rich Roll Podcast, Rich Roll welcomes surfing legend John John Florence to discuss his remarkable career, mindset, and the profound decisions that have shaped his life both in and out of the water.

2. Stepping Back from Competition

[12:08] A: "Yeah, thanks for having me."
John John begins by addressing his recent decision to take a hiatus from professional surfing. With his son turning one, he reflects on the importance of balancing family life with the demands of being an elite athlete.

[12:36] A:
John John shares that his community wasn't surprised by his decision, attributing it to his personality as a "free surfer at heart." He articulates the internal conflict between his competitive nature and his desire to enjoy surfing without the pressures of competition.

3. The Complex Relationship with Competition

[13:15] B:
Rich Roll probes into John John's nuanced view on competition, highlighting his dual identity as a highly competitive athlete and a laid-back surfer who cherishes the joy surfing brings.

[13:57] A:
John John delves deeper, explaining that his true competition is with himself. He emphasizes the importance of "letting go" to surf authentically in each moment, noting that his happiest competitive experiences stemmed from this mindset.

4. Mindset and Mental Tools

[15:18] B:
Rich highlights the mental aspects of surfing, noting the rapid emotional shifts athletes experience.

[15:26] A:
John John discusses how competition serves as a testing ground for mental resilience. He shares strategies like simplifying actions on the wave to prevent overthinking, which helps him maintain presence and performance under pressure.

Notable Quote:
[18:49] A: "I don't think there's a master of anything. Mastery for me is really being able to handle my internal self."

5. Training Regimen and Mindfulness Practices

[28:24] A:
John John outlines his comprehensive training approach, which includes various breathing techniques and visualization practices. Initially, he struggled with visualizing specific maneuvers, but found success in focusing on the emotions he wanted to feel before a heat.

[28:49] B:
Rich commends this emotional approach to visualization, contrasting it with more traditional, detail-oriented methods.

[30:06] A:
He explains that visualizing feelings rather than specific actions allows for greater flexibility and authenticity in the unpredictable environment of surfing.

6. Balancing Family, Career, and Personal Growth

[35:12] B:
The conversation shifts to the business side of John John's life, including his entrepreneurial ventures and brand management.

[44:36] B:
Rich inquires about John John's approach to maintaining balance amidst his various roles as an athlete, entrepreneur, and father.

[45:04] A:
John John describes balance as "dynamic," likening it to adjusting knobs to find the right mix between competing, recovering, and family time. He acknowledges that perfection in balance is unattainable, advocating for adaptability and acceptance of fluctuating priorities.

7. The Influence of Mentors and Support Systems

[70:06] B:
Rich Roll asks about the key influences in John John's life, such as mentors and books that have shaped his mindset.

[70:16] A:
John John credits individuals like Chris Prosser, Tim Brown, and Mike Gervais for their roles in his physical and mental recovery. He emphasizes the importance of having collaborative, objective relationships that provide essential feedback and support.

8. Olympic Experience and Its Impact

[81:46] A:
John John recounts his experiences competing in the Tokyo and Paris Olympics, highlighting the differences from the World Surf League (WSL). He describes the Olympics as highly regimented and pressurized, contrasting it with the more relaxed atmosphere he’s accustomed to.

[84:44] A:
He expresses a desire to integrate lessons learned from the Olympics into his regular competitive mindset, aiming to treat Olympic events with the same approach as any other competition.

9. Future Aspirations and Lifelong Learning

[85:56] A:
Looking ahead, John John shares his ambitions to continue competing, explore sailing, and expand his brand. He emphasizes a year-by-year approach, focusing on personal growth and embracing new challenges without being confined to a rigid five-year plan.

10. Life Lessons from the Ocean

[89:35] B:
Rich discusses the philosophical and spiritual lessons surfers gain from their relationship with the ocean, such as humility, presence, and adaptability.

[89:48] A:
John John echoes these sentiments, highlighting how nature imparts invaluable lessons in letting go and accepting uncontrollable elements. He believes that time spent in nature fosters deep personal transformation and resilience.

11. Advice to Aspiring Surfers and Athletes

[100:26] A:
John John advises young surfers to forge their own paths and embrace mistakes as integral to personal growth. He stresses the importance of self-understanding and taking ownership of one’s actions to achieve true mastery.

[100:44] A:
He underscores the value of mentorship and collaborative relationships, recounting how his coach, Ross Williams, provided objective feedback that helped him overcome mental hurdles.

12. Closing Thoughts

[108:12] A:
In his closing remarks, John John emphasizes the significance of having a clear direction and enjoying the journey, regardless of the outcomes. He encourages embracing flexibility and taking incremental steps toward personal and professional goals.

Notable Quote:
[109:08] A: "Knowing a direction you want to go, having that goal set, but then just enjoying the process to that."

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Key Takeaways

• Mindset Over Mechanics: John John Florence emphasizes the importance of mental resilience, mindfulness, and emotional regulation in elite sports.

• Dynamic Balance: Balancing professional ambitions with personal life requires adaptability and acceptance of constant change.

• Self-Mastery: True mastery stems from understanding and mastering one's internal self, rather than solely focusing on external achievements.

• Embracing Nature: A deep connection with nature not only enhances athletic performance but also fosters personal growth and humility.

• Personal Growth Through Challenges: Facing and overcoming setbacks is crucial for continual development and achieving long-term goals.

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For More Information:
To delve deeper into John John Florence’s philosophy and journey, visit Rich Roll’s website or explore the full episode on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[A]

It's crazy. Like, the heat starts and I just click into this, like, mode where I'm just like, I'm winning.

[B]

But at the same time, you are this, you know, North Shore kid who just wants to have fun and pal around with these guys.

[A]

Competition for me has always been about can I, like, let go, to let myself be able to surf in these moments.

[B]

You were like so young when you sprung onto the scene and kind of this hometown hero. And with a young mind like that has to, you know, kind of weigh heavily on you.

[A]

I lost so much. I lost every event. First heat, and I was not doing good at all. I kind of went on these couple of just free surf trips at one point and we were filming a bunch and I just remember having so much fun. Everything started clicking for me. I can have fun like that in competition too. Knowing a direction you want to go, having that goal set, but then just enjoying the process to that. That's the direction I want to go. And I'm going to start here and then I'm just going to take it step by step, being okay whether you fail or maybe you end up doing something completely different, but just having a direction and a starting point and taking a step to do it.

[B]

Yeah, he's here. John. John Florence, the three time surfing world champion, the two time Olympian, and the guy with two times the John in his name. That guy. So you got that coming up. All right. Anything going on with you guys? Are you okay? Are you good? That is my Marc Maron impression. Mad respect for the OG of podcasting. Anyway, what can I tell you? I guess I can tell you that I'm trying to remain calm and grounded in our increasingly insane world. As some of you guys know, I'm into week five of my recovery from spinal fusion surgery entering week six. I think by the time you hear this, it's moving forward. It's a little rocky on the mental health front. I can say that I definitely underestimated the toll that this would take on me. And the closest thing it reminds me of is kind of like being back in 2020 on lockdown, except with physical pain and basically immobility, body immobility. So it's been interesting, a new kind of learning experience for me, one that I'm doing my best to embrace for its lessons as this growth opportunity. And it's funny because I had Elizabeth Gilbert in the studio today. She's just the best man. I can't wait for you to hear that conversation. And you got that to look forward to in the coming Months. But I bring her up because she talks about this idea that she has sort of an approach to life called Urban Earth School. And the basic idea is that Earth or life is this school for our souls, this academy for spiritual ascension, where we, all of us that are here in our current form and circumstances, are here because we volunteered for it, for this curriculum for the purpose of growth, evolution, and ultimately, if we can see ourselves through it, our liberation. And it's essentially this perspective on life that frames every obstacle that we face, every setback, every difficult person in our life as this intentionally designed opportunity that is delivered to us, to you, to wake us up to our true nature and help us remember our divine connection. That basically everything you face is really just an opportunity to evolve. And look, it's not a new idea. My wife talks about this all the time, but Liz has this ability to give an idea like that, the Gilbert treatment. And I don't know, I think it's a pretty great way to think about this, to approach our problems, to confront our expectations and our entitlements and meet the hard things that we face in life a little bit differently, with a little bit more of a welcoming spirit. And I guess this is what I've been trying to do with this period of forced repose that I'm in, that when I'm forced to stop and I'm prevented from being able to do the things that make me feel like me, but also when I'm prevented from being able to run away from all the things that make me uncomfortable, and I'm not able to medicate myself in things like, you know, work or other distractions. So I guess what I'm talking about is just trying to be present a little more present in my life and to ask myself, like, what happens when you're just still with yourself and there's nowhere to go? And what I'm discovering is that this is where all the juice is. This is like the place of liberation. And as you know, if you listen to my recent podcast with Bob Roth, this feels like a skill that strikes me as pretty crucial right now. To grow, to change, to evolve, to connect with yourself, of course, and a power greater than yourself of your choosing, but also enough or nothing, a way to just better deal with and navigate the accelerating insanity of our increasingly confusing world. I think that's enough for now about that. But listen, if you want more details on this, on what it's like to have your body filleted open for a hardware upgrade, you can check out the recent roll on episode that we threw up last week. But first, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible. After hosting more than 900 episodes of this podcast, I have noticed a pattern. And that pattern is that the highest performers don't buy into the latest trendy hacks. Instead, they obsess on what actually works, which is always the unassuming basics. And there is nothing more basic than hydration. But here's the kicker. Your body can't hold onto water without the right minerals. 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Mix flavors with any [e-mail] RichRoll Find your favorite Element flavor or share it with a friend. What comes to mind when you think about plant protein powders? Well, I don't know about you, but for years it's basically been thought of as this barely tolerable product. You want the benefits, but you're basically choking down chalk flavor disappointment. Well, Momentous actually decided to change the game on this, and they've done it with their newly upgraded 100% plant protein formula. They took something that was already good, in my opinion, and actually made it incredible. The formulation is a combination of pea and rice protein sourced from the United States and Canada. It contains no gums, no fillers, no stabilizers, no soy, no allergens. And remarkably, the taste is really delicious. The texture is smooth. There's no grittiness, no artificial taste, no making weird faces while you drink it. And I say this in the context of understanding that when it comes to supplements, especially protein powders, there are just endless choices out there. And as we know, and as I have discussed at length, the supplement space is completely unregulated, which is why it's important to be conscious about the brands that you choose and why I feel so strongly about aligning with Momentous. Because these people and this company are truly, absolutely obsessive when it comes to quality and sourcing. And as a result, they have earned my trust. Every batch is NSF certified for sport. They are tested for heavy metals, harmful additives, everything, Olympic level standards. Which is why Momentous is the brand of choice, not surprisingly, for professional athletes and elite high performers across the world. So whether you're plant based or just trying to include more plant protein into your routine, please do not settle for good enough when you can have protection, performance for life. So if you're like me and you want to take supplements that are made by and used by the best in the world, go to livemomentous.com rich roll to save up to 36% off your first subscription order of protein. And if you don't want to subscribe, that's fine. You can still get 20% off all of my favorite products. That's livemomentous.com Rich Roll all right, John. John Florence. Yes, he's on the podcast, one of surfing's living greats. It's interesting, this guy, from the beginning, this was a kid, a little kid growing up on Oahu's North Shore, just like steps away from Pipeline, one of the most iconic breaks in the world. And everyone knew that there was something special about this kid. And he was basically anointed at a very young age as the second coming to Kelly Slater, the guy who was just going to win it all every year, year after year. And in many ways he's lived up to that. He has won a lot, including back to back world championship titles in 2016 and 2017. But look, it's a lot to carry that label to shoulder those expectations. And it took him seven years of not winning, years of setbacks and injuries before he could finally reclaim that crown and win his third World championship title, which he did this past year. So we talk about that, we talk about all the training and performance stuff, talk about mindset and visualization. He has a very unique visualization practice. But Jon, Jon is also just a really soulful cat. A guy who has evolved his relationship with what it all means, what's important and why. And those are things that motivated him to take a very different turn this year. He's taken the year off from competition to focus on his family, to focus on sailing. And that's pretty ballsy coming off of a world championship win. And I think it speaks to somebody who has their priorities straight, somebody who is really clear on who they are and what it is that is important as a husband, as a fairly new dad, as an entrepreneur, and as somebody for whom it's very important to stay in love with the ocean. And behind all the accolades, this is a guy who's just a true waterman and also truly humble. I love talking to him. It's a great hang. So there you have it. And here we go. This is me and John. John, Florence. John. John. So nice to meet you, man. Thanks for doing this.

[A]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[B]

You're at a really interesting stage of your life right now. Your son is almost a year old, right?

[A]

Just turned a year. Just turned one year.

[B]

Yeah. And you made this kind of semi radical decision to hit pause on the professional circuit in your career right now, which I think is a really interesting and bold, confident move. But I'm curious around the decision making process leading up to that and how it's been going for you.

[A]

It's funny, I don't think the serving community was super surprised. I think because of my personality, I feel like people have maybe expected me to step away for a moment or two at some point.

[B]

Tell me more about that. What do you mean, your personality?

[A]

I think I'm just like kind of a. More of a free surfer at heart. Like, not a competitive surfer, but I'm very competitive at the same time. But a lot of people see me as like. At least I think like this person who wants to go off and surf good waves and just enjoy surfing.

[B]

This is like my biggest question around you and your career and your approach to life, because I think your relationship to competition is really complicated.

[A]

It is.

[B]

On the one hand, you're very much a performance machine. Like, you've got everything dialed. You're operating at a really high level. You're incredibly intentional about your approach to your craft and how you prepare for these competitions. Like, it's, it's pretty rigorous and meticulous, like at the highest level. But at the same time, you are this, you know, North Shore kid who just wants to have fun and pal around with his guys and, and make sure that you're not losing touch with the joy that it brought you, you know, throughout your childhood. Yeah, and, and, and that's a. That's like a murky. These things are, are they in competition with each other? Like, how do you synthesize those two things?

[A]

That's been, that's been the Hardest thing for me is it's always clashing. Like, I think hardest moments in my life of figuring out who I am have been during competition on the road and just going through these things of like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to be doing this. I'm not having fun doing this because, yeah, I grew up on the North Shore, surfing. My family, my friends, and I love surfing for surfing. I don't love surfing for the competing side of it. And for me, it's always clash because it's. And I'm not really the personality type to be around lots of people and be told what to do and go surf like this or surf like that. But the one thing that does keep me coming back is, like, the mental side of it. So much of me enjoys that part of it that, like, okay, I have to get into that mental side. What are these mental tools that I can learn? And it's like competing is this really compressed time of, like, tons of emotions. Right. And so, you know, one moment you get a really good wave and you're like, all up on adrenaline, and then the next moment you fall and you kind of have to come back from that. And so it's figuring. I feel like I've kind of realized that I've learned all these, like, kind of bigger life mental tools in, like, such short moments. And you can really test them and see how that works and see how that works. Kind of preparing yourself to go into these different moments.

[B]

But the competition is you against you. Yeah, that's what I'm getting from that. It's not about beating other people.

[A]

No. The competition for me has always been about can I let go, to let myself be able to surf in these moments. And so when I get in the water and my worst heats, the worst I feel is when I'm not able to let that tension go and just be able to surf how I surf and my best heats, even if I don't make it. It's funny. The ones that I'm able to let go and just surf, sometimes I lose them. But I come in totally happy and I'm like, oh, I had fun. That was super fun.

[B]

This is why surfing is such a curious, unique sport. Unlike track and field or swimming, there's so many variables, and you're contending with nature and whatever it decides to deliver to you. And you have to figure out in the moment how to work with it, not against it, for your own benefit. Right. So you push yourself, but you have to let go. You have to surrender. And you have to find a way to be sympathetic, symbiotic with this gigantic thing to prove your mastery. It's a really tricky equation to solve.

[A]

Yeah, it's so hard because sometimes you feel like I'm in my best headspace. I feel physically, mentally prepped. Everything is going right. I'm ready to do what I'm going to do. And then the wave doesn't come and you're just sitting there, you're waiting, you're waiting, you're waiting, and then it just doesn't happen. And you're looking around like, wait, I was so ready. It's really hard to kind of come to terms with that sometimes. But like you said, it's just that feeling of being able to kind of let go to it and be like, I know if I get the chance, I'm going to be able to do what I want to do, but I might not get that chance too.

[B]

But it wasn't always the case for you. I mean, you've gone through situations in which you had, I mean, it seems like pretty kind of crippling paralysis, anxiety when you were in a competition setting where you couldn't let go or you couldn't just allow yourself to find, find that, find that flow. And obviously that undermined your ability to perform.

[A]

Yeah. And I think with anyone too, like that when you're tense and when you're overthinking and overstressed, like, your body is not going to let go to do what it normally does. Like, for me, I think about it like, I. If and when I'm in my best, when I'm at my best state, like, I know how to surf. I know I could probably paddle out, get a good wave right now, not think anything of surfing. But I'm going to take off in my body. I'm just going to start, like, naturally doing it, you know. And so I have to remind myself that sometimes, like, rather than overthinking it and going like, what am I going to do? I'm going to take off on this wave and I could do an air. I could do a turn, I could. Like, there's. There's so many things that I could do rather than just I'm going to take off and I'm just going to just start surfing, you know? And I, like, over, through time, you start to learn little tools, little tricks that kind of get you into that space that, where you might be at kind of overthinking it, but then you bring it back and like one of my little ones has been just like, okay, what's the easiest thing that I can think of doing surfing. When I'm, like, overwhelmed thinking of all the things that I can do when I take off on a wave, I'm like, I'm just gonna do a cutback. And that's just where you, like, just do a simple turn back. And then once I start that, get a start doing that, like, the rest of the wave kind of just happens. But it's about just, like, for me, just kind of getting that, like, really simple start and going with it to.

[B]

Inhabit that state of no mind. Right. If you're thinking and trying to figure out what the decision is going to be, like, you're already toast.

[A]

You're already toast because you're thinking about.

[B]

Thinking about it, but you have all this muscle memory. So it's trust also in yourself. Like, I don't need to make a decision because I already know what to do, and I'll figure it out intuitively and spontaneously.

[A]

Yeah, but that's the hardest thing if.

[B]

The head gets in the way.

[A]

Yeah. To go back and trust yourself and go. Like, I know that I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, but you see someone in the heat before do a huge error, and I get caught up in that all the time. And wanting to, like, the competitive side of me, I was like, oh, he. He got a nine. I wanna get a 10, you know, or whatever the scores are. And so you get caught up in that rather than just the, like, I don't care what he did. I don't care what the other guy's doing. In my heat, whatever wave comes to me, I'm. I'm gonna surf it the best I can surf it.

[B]

Controlling the controllables. And in surfing, there's so few things that you can control.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

But the Jedi move, like the Zen master move, is to not allow any of those externalities to impact the stillness that you need to kind of allow yourself to unleash that ultimate ride.

[A]

Yeah. And I think the biggest one that I've learned, and it's, like, counterintuitive, but it's not blocking it out, but it's like just allowing things to hit you and then bounce off my headspace. Before he is like, I start getting nervous and I start feeling it in my stomach, and I kind of start noting, like, oh, wow, like, I'm feeling nervous right now. Well, that's interesting. Like, I feel it in my gut. Like, yeah, that's probably pretty normal. I'm going out for a heat There's a world championship on the line right now. Like, probably gonna be pretty nervous about this. And it's weird when you start to, like, let the things just kind of, like, come through like that, how you just kind of start to accept them one at a time rather than if I'm going to. I'm nervous. I don't want to be nervous right now.

[B]

Resisting the way that you feel.

[A]

Why am I nervous? I shouldn't be nervous. And then that just goes down a whole nother road.

[B]

It's the heart, mind, Right. Like, learning to really trust that voice. Because I've heard you talk a lot about, like, the body knows when it's in the wrong situation. And your evolution has, in part been about, like, learning how to trust that. Like, I don't feel like I should be here. This isn't right for me. Right. And instead of tuning that out.

[A]

No.

[B]

This is where I am supposed to be. And, like, trying to, like, argue with, you know, what your body is trying to tell you to instead, like, be in acceptance of that and, like, really honor and heed that.

[A]

Yeah, totally. And I think it's just. And that's what I. The last few years, at least, I've been learning more and more, is just kind of to accept those situations as they are. And, like, one instance was, like, the world championship heat at Lower Trestles here in California last year. It's like, the most. The highest pressure event I've ever served, you know? And so, like, when there's tons of people, I get really nervous and, like, tons of people watching. And, I mean, anyone would. But, like, the one thing I just remember, I was, like, walking down and I was like. At first, right when I stepped onto the sand, there's everyone's yelling and you're walking through all the people. And then I was like, kind of like, no, I'm gonna block it all out and pretend I'm here by myself, going to surf by myself. And then I was like, wait, no. Like, what a cool moment this is. I'm just gonna accept this. And then I felt like I was like, this kind of, like, opening moment for me where I just kind of was just like, this is so cool. Like, everyone's cheering me on. I'm going out for this world title heat, and I don't know what's gonna happen, but what a cool moment in my life. Like, I'm nervous. This is a lot of pressure. Like, all these things, and it's just happening right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I felt like that was like, the Moment where, for me, I was able to be, like, kind of almost laugh at the whole situation, you know, Like, I paddled out in the first heat. I sat there for 20 minutes. Not one wave came through, and I'm, like, just able to sit there. And rather than be, like, my chances now, I was just able to be like, oh, this is funny that this is happening like this.

[B]

And then it all clicks and it works.

[A]

Yeah. And then the first wave comes that you're able to take off on, and you're kind of in a good mindset about it. You're not in this tense, like, oh, this is it. This is the only chance. It's just kind of like, oh, this is. Oh, here comes a wave. Now I'm relaxed. I feel good.

[B]

How did you go from where you were to that to that kind of realization and, you know, that ability to not tune it out, but just almost leverage it, being like, what a privilege to be here. This is so cool. All these people want me to do well, like, instead of, like, you know, like, what if I fail? Like, you know, doomsday scenarios.

[A]

It's been my whole career learning to get to that point, you know, And I think, like, I've gone through so many heats where it's. I've been overly tense, overly trying to block out what's happening around it and pretending like the crowd's not there or the competition's not there. And sometimes that works, but then sometimes it just. It doesn't, and it's. I'm in this state of, like, it keeps coming back to me, you know, like a reminder of, like, all the people are there, and I'm like, no, they're not. No, they're not. You know, and it's like this, like, kind of fighting within myself rather than just being on one track and just being like, oh, I'm accepting it. I'm here.

[B]

You have to be symbiotic with the wave, but you can't be symbiotic with the wave unless you're symbiotic with yourself.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. And so once you're symbiotic with yourself, you can, like, relax and just allow it to happen.

[B]

Your entire career, though, has. Has sort of. Burdened is the wrong word. But, you know, it's. It's. It's sort of loaded you up with a lot of external pressures. I mean, you were, like, so young when you sprung onto the scene and kind of this hometown hero and, you know, with a young mind, like, that has to, you know, kind of weigh heavily on you. And you know, all the, all the, you know, the next Kelly Slater and all this, it's like there's a lot, that's like a lot of pressure for a young kid. And then, you know, you kind of live up to it and you have those back to back world titles and then, you know, you have, then you have your struggles like any professional athlete. I mean, there's a whole journey in there to, you know, kind of arrive seven years later and win a world title and have the confidence to say, I'm going to step back for a year.

[A]

Yeah. So just my whole life has been, it's been like this just crazy kind of waves up and down and I think. But the real changing moment for me was like when I was kind of coming out of my teen years and kind of coming in like, okay, I'm really gonna pursue competition seriously. And then I, I couldn't really handle the pressure of that, you know, because like you said, like, I felt like there's a lot of expectation about what I was gonna do. And I lost so much. I lost every event, first heat, and I was not doing good at all. I was like, this isn't really working.

[B]

Because it was just weighing on. You think? It just was weighing on so much.

[A]

And I.

[B]

Do you think there was some self sabotage? Like, if I lose, then maybe I can alleviate some of this pressure.

[A]

Maybe self sabotage, but also just like, is this really how I want to surf or is this really what I want to do with myself, like surfing wise? And just, I was like, losing is not very fun. I don't know if I like this. And then I lost a bunch. And then I kind of went on these couple of just free surf trips at one point and we were filming a bunch. And I just remember having so much fun. I was like, really enjoying just trying new things and new lines and all these different things. And everything started clicking for me. And once I kind of found that without competition, I was able to come back to the competition and be like, okay, like I can have fun like that in competition too. I can do the same thing. Like, I don't have to surf a certain way. I can surf my own way with it. And I think for me that that really opened up a whole new world of like, oh, I want to compete in my own way, not someone else's way.

[B]

When the thing that you love and that you're good at becomes your job, and then all the joy is drained out of it, then you know, you're in a fast track to nowhere. Right? So like, having the wherewithal, the presence of mind to say, like, I need to. I need to stay in love with this thing. And, like, how do I do that?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And so then, like, I kind of went into this space of where I was actually. I was competing good, but pretty inconsistently. Um, I was having fun doing it, but, like I said, inconsistently. And then I got into another phase where I was like, okay, now I really want to take competition a little more seriously. And I, like, mixed in a little bit more structure and a little more mindset stuff. Just kind of into, like, pinpointing into the competition side, but allowing my surfing to still be kind of a little bit free and what I was doing. Um, and the thing that I noticed which became. Started to become really fun, was, like, I made the practice pretty structured and pretty. Pretty rigid on what I was practicing.

[B]

Mindfulness practice or a mindset practice.

[A]

Like, was it mindset practice and surfing practice, like, certain maneuvers or certain. Just things on a wave to carry speed through? I got really specific about what I was practicing. And then when I would get to a heat, the whole goal was to be able to let go and know that I had practiced it and just. Just kind of let myself do it. And I found that was, like, a really good structure for me. It kind of had the mix of both of this structured practice, and then I was still able to let go and surf how I want to surf with any heat.

[B]

I mean, that's like a theater actor who rehearses the script a thousand times so that they can show up on opening night and be off book and just.

[A]

You don't have to think about anything.

[B]

Right. What are some of the tools along the way that you've discovered that have been helpful from, like, a mindfulness and mindset perspective?

[A]

So some of the, like, there's a lot of breathing stuff that I like to do just during, before, after several different types of breathing, I guess. And then visualization for me has been a really big one. And I remember when I was getting into visualizing, at first I was visualizing, like, myself on a wave, doing a turn or surfing, and it never really worked for me. So then I started visualizing how I wanted to feel before the heat started, and that was a lot easier. And so for me, like, if I feel this just relaxed, kind of letting go, like, I'm going into the heat like this, and so that's when I do my best. And so that's what I started visualizing. I started visualizing, like, the walk down from the Contest, the getting there. The like, oh, like the waves look so fun, like, and just that kind of really relaxed feel to it. That's when things really started clicking for me on the mindset side. I was able to do that over whatever 100, a thousand times, visualizing it. And then when the moment would come, I would just kind of let it happen. And I'd be entering into these heats just feeling so relaxed and so good and just like, oh, here we go.

[B]

That's super interesting to me. Of course I've heard and I've practiced visualization. Like you visualize every tiny detail of the event and you walk through like the best case scenario, but then you do worst case scenarios so that you can be prepared when things don't go your way, et cetera. But that's all like practicalities, right?

[A]

Like how.

[B]

But the idea of approaching visualization from an emotional perspective, like how do I want to feel? I think is very cool. I've never heard anyone talk about that.

[A]

For surfing. I think it makes a lot of sense because surfing, like I can imagine visualizing specifics of what you're doing and say like track and field or something that's very like you're on a.

[B]

It's. There's only so many variables.

[A]

There's only so many variables. Exactly where surfing, it's like you can be like, okay, imagine yourself on a wave. You're like, what kind of.

[B]

It's never going to be the wave that you imagine.

[A]

Yeah, there's a million different versions of the same wave that it could happen. And so that's what I was struggling with. I was like, well, I could take off and there could be a ramp or I could take off and I could do this or that. And so that's when I was like, that doesn't work for me, just the emotional side. But I think that goes to my core of who I am when I surf is this relaxed feeling of I'm having fun and that's when I surf my best. So just kind of getting myself to that state. Foreign.

[B]

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[A]

It's just a fact.

[B]

But even if you're building one from scratch or have an allergy to technology, there's really nothing to fear because SpaceSpace's all in One platform, makes the process incredibly simple, with everything you need, from claiming a domain to building a super pro website, or even when you're ready to scale to a supersonic level, all in one place. The newest feature is their Blueprint AI, which basically creates a custom website for you in just a few steps. You tell it about your industry, your goals, your personality, and it generates content and design recommendations that actually fit who you are. But here's the thing that really matters. The real juice. They make it ridiculously easy to offer services and get paid. Consultations, coaching, workshops, whatever. You can showcase your offerings, handle scheduling, send invoices, take payments. And it's all integrated because the world needs what you have to offer. But if people can't find you or easily work with you, it doesn't matter how good you are. So head on over to squarespace.com rich roll for a free trial. And when you're ready to Launch, use code RICH ROLL to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. I had Kai Lenny in here a while back, and, you know, he was kind of walking through. Walk me through, like, his fitness regime and, like, his diet and nutrition and all of his recovery prep, like, how he trains, and it was. I was really impressed with just the. The professionalism of it all. And. And, you know, I know that you have a version of that yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But this is like a new evolution in surfing. Even from, you know, your younger years. There probably weren't that many people who were approaching the sport with that degree of intentionality.

[A]

No, I definitely think it's in the last, like, generation that's it's really come on to be like, you know, you're training, you're doing the mindfulness stuff. You're kind of doing everything you can to win. Where before is a little more of a party on the road, and then you go surf some heats, too.

[B]

And if you were taking it seriously, you know, maybe you'd be like some weird outlier. Right? Like, you wouldn't be part of the. Yeah, like, you wouldn't. You would be kind of ostracized.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, like, Kelly Slater, you know, he's like. He was doing everything differently and he was just winning everything and on top. And on top's lonely. And so, like, he was kind of this outlier, I feel like, of what was happening. And then, you know, you have like, a Mick Fanning come in, and he starts taking things really seriously also, and he starts winning. And then now, today, like, every kid is doing everything they can on the tour to win. It's fun, though, because it's made the whole level of everything go way up.

[B]

So what is a day in the life when you're super focused? Not now, because you're just sailing, spending time with your family.

[A]

A day in a life when I'm super focused is relatively structured. So if I'm getting ready for an event, so I'll just kind of take into this. Last year is like, um, I had a trainer, a nutritionist, meal plans, kind of schedules of surfing, somewhat of like, hey, tomorrow I want to work on these boards, this boards, and kind of keeping the session somewhat short.

[B]

And are you making those decisions or do you have a coach? Like, how does it work?

[A]

I have a coach, but I'm definitely making decisions on how it works for Me. And then on top of that, just recovery stuff. So it's definitely like a structured, but kind of like a loose structure almost on depending on waves and how I'm feeling. If I wake up and I'm like, I don't feel it, like, I'm not feeling good today, then, you know, I'll be like, okay. My body's saying, I need a rest. I'll rest more. I just know my. For myself, like, I will overwork rather than underwork. And so I know I'm not lazy. So if I need a day of rest, I know I'm not being lazy, um, because I tend to do the opposite if. If I don't set like a point for myself to come in. My sessions will go from an hour to four hours. I'll be. Still be in the water going, okay, yeah, I'm just. I'm gonna get one more. I think I'll get it on this next one.

[B]

And then. And then you get injured and you wonder why. And you wonder why.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. What is the out of the ocean physical training regimen? What does that look like?

[A]

So for me, my out of the ocean regimen has changed so much over the years just through injuries and figuring out what works for me. This last year I did, I worked with a GU named Chris Prosser from Australia, and he does kind of like a mix of DNS stuff mixed with movement and a lot of body weight stuff.

[B]

And so that's dynamic neuromuscular stimulation. What does that stand for?

[A]

I think so, yeah, something like that.

[B]

Stabilization.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, it's based on, like, found foundational movements of, like, the human body from when we're like a baby to, you know, where we are now. And so I worked a lot doing that, and I found that was the best for that. Felt the best on my knees, that felt the best of my back, like, everything. And I didn't add any extra load because I'm pretty physical outside of the water. I love riding my bike. I love surfing. I love downwind foiling. I love all these different things, and it's hard to keep me out of the water. And so instead of like, like limiting myself too much on those, like, I definitely limited my sessions a little bit. But I also, like, um, Kelly Stewart was one that was. Helped me. He was like, hey, let's not stop everything you're doing. Let's just do everything you need to do in order to keep doing what you're doing. And so it's like eating more rest, more sleep, recovery stuff. More movement stuff. Um, and I did a lot of Kelly's movement stuff as well. And so it was this balance of like, kind of limiting my sessions a little bit and then. But then also like adding in so I'm still enjoying it and having fun so that I can keep doing what I want to do.

[B]

And is it basically like the. The entire day is devoted to training in one form or another. Whether it's like recovery, nutrition training. I know you've got like a hyperbaric chamber and you have a float tank and you've got like the cold plunge. You got like all the, all the.

[A]

Toys, have everything you can imagine. Yeah.

[B]

So it's just kind of like one thing to the next.

[A]

Yeah. So I kind of would, in my mind, I would set up a loose schedule of like, okay, I want to try to do hyperbaric every day or every other day for the next two months while I'm home. I want to try to do the float tank. Three times a week I want to do. And I want to work on these things while I'm in the float tank.

[B]

What are you working on when you're in the float?

[A]

When I'm on the float tank, I do a lot of like, the first bit of. It's like kind of relaxing, kind of like letting the thoughts work, go through. Cause you end up. Sorry, it's just. Everything's dark and you start thinking a lot. And so I try to get through that and just breathing and just relaxing, relaxing and just thinking of myself, just like relaxing every muscle. And then from there, once I kind of feel a little more clear, I'll go into visualization stuff. And that's where I start to visualize like an event and like I said, the kind of leading up to it and how I want to feel. And I feel like I get a lot out of that. And so I did that quite a bit in there.

[B]

Is that in addition to a formal meditation practice or is that your sort of some sort of. Your version of a meditation?

[A]

It's just part of it. Like, so last year I probably meditated every single morning. It'd be the first thing I do when I wake up. I'd wake up and even if I'm just still in bed, I'd just sit there and I would kind of start like a. Some sort of 20 minute thing before I get up. Um, I found for me that worked the best because I would just, I would do it. And so if I got up and got moving and started surfing and stuff.

[B]

It'S hard for it's really, yeah, it's hard if you don't do it right away. Yeah, I, I, I know that well.

[A]

So, yeah, I, I found a, a good mixture of that. Like I would do it in the mornings and then when I was at home I would use the float tank.

[B]

Uh huh, yeah. And now that you're on this sort of sabbatical, I mean you're still surfing.

[A]

All the time, right?

[B]

But you're just not training? Training.

[A]

No, but like I said, I'm pretty physical with what I do in my daily life. I love getting to that point at the end of the day where you're like, I can't move anymore. I'm so tired pushing myself to that point. So I still do a lot of the stuff I would do when I'm at home. I ride my bike every day. I surf, I do movement stuff. I still do a lot of it just because I want to feel good and I want to feel like I can wake up and serve the best I can.

[B]

Has it been helpful to see like Kelly Slater kind of step back and dip back in and have this incredible longevity in his career? Does that like instill a little bit more confidence in you? That yeah, I can take this break and come back and I have a long career ahead of me still.

[A]

Yeah, I think just seeing him win events at 50 years old was like, for me was just like, I want to be able to do that. Even if I choose not to compete at that point, I would love to be able to still be surfing like that. You know, I love surfing and pushing myself. So it's, it's been more of an inspiration than anything to be like, oh, I want to, I want to do everything I'm doing during competition because I just feel better in that way. I think clear. I surf better everything and so, but just maybe in a slightly more family orientated way, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I'm still doing a lot of it, but it's just a little bit different.

[B]

What do people not understand about the behind the scenes of kind of keeping this machine running, like with who you are and at the level that you're at? You have all these relationships with brands and sponsors. There's duties that you know, you have to fulfill for them. You have to be a content creator, you have to be kind of an online, you have to be online in a certain way and you're also, also like an entrepreneur. You've got your Florence brand and you know there's, that's a lot, like there's a There's like. Like, do you have a team of people that help you manage that? Like, what is the. What is the kind of daily, you know, kind of routine around just like the business side of being John? John?

[A]

Yeah. The business side for me has become bigger than I ever kind of thought it would be, I guess. Um, I think when I was growing up, you just think like, oh, just surf and I get a sponsorship and I go surf events and I make little movies and stuff. But now it's just cool. Where I feel like I've really enjoyed where my life has kind of gone and I've been able to start my own brand and get to learn the back end of the business of that and growing that as well. Growing a brand has been one of the most fun things I feel like I've done in my career. And now I have my brothers on board with me. And the product side of it is something that I've just been so interested in, learning more about materials and just different things that we can do to make our life better and what we're doing in and around the water. I never even thought about how much I would enjoy that.

[B]

That's interesting. And it looks like it's going really well.

[A]

Yeah, it's been going really well.

[B]

The products are very dialed and high end.

[A]

Yeah, it just like.

[B]

You're not screwing around.

[A]

No, we're not screwing around. But like you said on the back end, it takes a lot of work. And I think I'm still figuring out what the balance of that is. And now we have a one year old. And so I'm like, okay, family life, okay, that takes up 80% of the time. And then you have this other 10%. There's no more time anymore. There's no more time just sitting there going like, oh, I'm bored right now. What am I gonna do?

[B]

But it focuses you?

[A]

It focuses me for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you think about balance?

[A]

I feel like balance for me is just. It's like dynamic. It's always moving. It's always something that's flowing and changing. And I kind of feel like I'm always trying to figure out what the right balance is. And I don't know, kind of like knobs, you know, you're like dialing one thing up, dialing one thing down, seeing how it feels. Okay, no, that. That went a little bit too much that direction. Okay, let's go back this direction a little bit and figuring out what that the right kind of path is for it. I feel like I've Done that through my competing, too, with training and everything. It's just kind of thinking of it like, knobs, like, okay, and being okay if something doesn't feel right for a week, you know, and then being like, okay, that was a weird week. Let's go back the other way a little bit.

[B]

Yeah. Not all the knobs are going to be perfectly aligned on any given day. I think it puts a lot of pressure on people, this notion that you're supposed to be in balance all the time. And certainly if you're going to excel at the highest level at something, your life is fundamentally, by definition, going to be out of balance. Like, you're not achieving these goals without it being out of balance. But I think of it as like a pendulum that's swinging.

[A]

Totally. And I think that's where I've learned to try to be okay with there being a bad week. There's gonna be bad weeks, there's gonna be bad days, and you're like, okay, that was. How did I. Like that? Was that bad because of this, or was that bad because that actually didn't make me feel good at who I am or follow my values? And so kind of following that as my guide, I guess, has been kind of what I've been learning to do.

[B]

And do you have dudes in your life that, like, check you, you know, like, hey, bro, like, you're a little off here. Like, maybe reel it in or, you know, like, who give you the hard feedback and.

[A]

My family. My family is probably the closest to that.

[B]

Like your brothers.

[A]

Yeah. Not afraid of saying, like, that was weird. Like, what are you doing there? Like. And I'm like, ah, you're right. That doesn't feel like me. Yeah, that didn't feel right. I'm glad you said something.

[B]

I'm curious around your relationship with your mom. Like, she seems like, you know, a pretty large figure in your life.

[A]

Definitely. Yeah. My mom's been a huge figure in my life. Just raising us on the North Shore, and, like, we weren't. We didn't have tons of money by any means, so, like, figuring out how to get us to go, like, to all these amazing places in the world when we were young and going to Bali for three months and then picking up all of our stuff and going to Europe for three months and just kind of felt like that was a.

[B]

Huge part of, like, single mom with three kids. Like, how do you manage that?

[A]

We were going to Bali when we were really young, and my. My brother was like, four. Broken leg with a cast up to his hip. My mom's pushing him on the car. And then me and my other brother are six and eight and we're just terrorizing. And I have my one year old now and I'm like, I don't know how you did that.

[B]

So what was it like? What, what was motivating her? Like, what was her commitment?

[A]

I think my mom just loved being or loves being in and around the ocean, you know, I think she loves surfing, she loves the beach, and she wanted to share that with us. And so, yeah, she just took us on the adventures with her.

[B]

And she's still around, right?

[A]

Yeah, my mom surfs every day. She's. She loves skateboarding. She goes to the skate park every day and she still paddles out to Pipeline on her longboard. And so it's pretty fun to see that.

[B]

Is the North Shore safe? Basically the same as it was when you were a kid and you're just running around barefoot, you know, to school and to surfing and I mean, it's sort of like free range childhood.

[A]

Definitely. I mean, it's changed a little bit for sure, but it's still pretty much the same. It's a super small community. The elementary school I went to is still there. The kids are still going to school and going to the beach after, like with the bike path that runs up and down and the kids are riding their bikes to go surf every day. And so it's pretty much the same as when I grew up.

[B]

That kind of experience is, you know, I grew, I grew up in the 70s, like that it was sort of normal, you know, but like, you see that as like quickly disappearing from most modern society. And, you know, Hawaii is pretty unique in that regard.

[A]

Yeah, it's this really special place just because of, I mean, if you've ever been there, it's like I said, a really small community. We have one bike path that runs across the whole thing or the highway that runs across it, and then the elementary school there and pipelines across the street, which for surfing is like the, one of the epicenters of surfing, I feel like. And so for me, growing up there and being a surfer and getting to watch my idols win world championships there, it was pretty incredible. And so, yeah, it's like, it's sort.

[B]

Of like Bill Gates, like growing up proximate to some kind of supercomputer at the right time. You know, like all of the, you know, like all of the elements were there. You know, it was like the, this perfect cocktail to create you. I mean, you have this mom who was enthusiastic about surfing. You literally live on the beach where the greatest waves in the world and all the greatest surfers were. You start surfing when you're, like, six months old, she's taking you out, and you're surfing on your own at five.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, it was definitely, like, a good mixture of, like, a good chain of events to get. Get me where I am today.

[B]

Of course you want your son. Your son to be a surfer, right? Like, what? But, like, in my experience, the universe sometimes wires it. Like, what if he's like, I don't like the beach?

[A]

To be honest, I don't care. Well, I would really love if he likes being in the ocean because, well, I think we'll be able to share a lot of moments like that.

[B]

I don't think he really has a choice, though, right?

[A]

Yeah, I don't think he has a choice. We're literally living on the water right.

[B]

Now in similar ways, and in different ways, you're a waterman in the way that Ky Lenny is. Like, you love the water and you like doing all different kinds of things in addition to surf, but a little bit different from Kai in that, like, sailing is your big thing. So talk to me about the whole sailing thing.

[A]

Yeah. So, like, I just. In and around the ocean, I love doing everything, like, Kai. Like, I inspired by Kai all the time. He does a million different things, and he does them all really well. So for me, I. I like sailing a lot. Um, for some whatever reason, like, I don't know, 10 or 15, 10 or 12 years ago, I got on, like, a little boat with my friend in front of our house, and I was like, this is pretty cool. And we, like, went to this. To Waimea Bay, which is down the beach. And I was like, wow, we sailed down here. That was pretty fun. And then I was like, I'm gonna get my own little boat. And then we were just, like, up and down the North Shore. And then eventually I was like, I want to be able to go to the other islands. And it just kind of became this, like. It, like, opened up my whole world of this, like, self adventure, I felt like. And then mixed in with being able to, like, like, be on the ocean and read the ocean in a whole different and new way. Like, the open ocean is so different from, like, being by the reefs. You know, the waves do different things, the swells look different. And I just really enjoyed kind of. And I'm still enjoying, like, learning that side of it.

[B]

And you've done some pretty big sales, right? Like, didn't you, didn't you sail from Hawaii to Fiji and did this New Zealand sail recently?

[A]

Yeah, we sailed from a couple years ago. We did Hawaii to Fiji and that was 3,000 miles of just. And just like, like there's not much between. But that was really cool. And then, you know, th. That trip was especially cool because it's so long you can't actually see the weather forecast for the second half, you know, of the trip. And so you're looking at the weather forecast for the leaving pretty much and you're like, okay, it looks like good time to leave. I have no idea what's going to happen on the second half. And then it turns into these just like, you're just looking at the weather where you are as you're going and trying to avoid like any systems or anything like that. Where we just did a trip from New Zealand to Fiji and it was actually the weather was a lot scarier, a lot more unstable than that trip was. But you can kind of get an idea of what the trip is going to be like the whole trip before you leave. You know, you're not guessing what the second half is going to be like. Like it's a six day trip and the weather forecast is relatively good for the six days. Um, so it was just different. But definitely the weather was.

[B]

But when you're like out there and you just can't see and you're. I mean, no one's coming to save you, like there's a high degree of like vulnerability.

[A]

Yeah. This last trip was the first time I've been, I was really like, had had a couple of nights where I was like really scared. The most scared I've been on the boat. Probably just with these moments of like, there's a current with 30 to 40 knot winds and it just makes these really steep waves that are breaking and they're really close together and the boat is just getting hit and you're in the middle of the night and you're sailing and you don't see the waves, you just hear them break and then they hit the boat and you're just like. It's that scary sinking feeling of like, what's the next one gonna do? How many more of these do I have to deal with until it gets light out? Like. So for me, like, I'm still learning a lot and I wouldn't say I'm like nearly as experienced as a lot of the captains or boat captains in the world, but so that was a moment for me. I was like, like, whoa, this is this is scary. I don't, I don't know what's gonna happen here.

[B]

And what is the perspective that you glean from that? Like, what does it give you? Like. Cause it's, it's just not an experience that, that many people have.

[A]

The perspective, I guess, was just like going through the experience. It's, it was pretty interesting how relative things are. Like, so before that trip, like 20 to 30 knots feels like a lot of wind, you know, And I'm like, whoa, this is windy. This is like, like I try to avoid that. And then after this trip, it was blowing like I felt like we, I mean, just since we left New Zealand, we saw 50 knots. A couple times we saw 30 to 40 knots of wind. And then it makes that 20 to 30 knots feel really calm. And you're like, oh, this is pretty easy, you know. And so it's pretty interesting when you like expose yourself to these like more extreme situations, how the situations that you thought were extreme before aren't as bad anymore and they feel much more manageable. Um, and I feel like that's kind of with life in general, like surfing big waves and then you go to a little bit smaller and you're like, oh, I was in that situation and now this situation feels pretty manageable.

[B]

Yeah, nobody just drops in on an 80 foot wave. They're working up to it. So gradually, you know, over a long period of time, it seems like there's so much energy in surfing around the big waves. Right. And that was a hundred foot wave. Like, you know, it's like if you're not surfing the big waves, like you're nowheresville. Right. Like, does that hold an allure for you or is that just. That's not for me. Like you. I mean, I've heard you talk about like how much you love surfing small waves.

[A]

Yeah, no, I love surfing big waves. I think growing up in Hawaii, just you're kind of like that experience thing. Like you just are naturally like put into those situations where you're experiencing it. And so it becomes kind of like part of your surfing kind of circle. My brother is. That's all he does, he chases big waves. And so for me, it's not something I'm like, oh, I want to go get the biggest wave ever at Nazare in Portugal or anything like that. Like I just like every once in a while going and having that experience, whether it's in Maui or it's in on Oahu, it's like being able to experience those sessions with your friends. There's this feeling of like after the day finishes that you're like, it's like this, like come down of the session and you're like, that was like, that was intense and that was fun. Like this whole huge adrenaline buildup and it's just, it's amazing being out there with waves when the waves are that big. Like you come over a wave before a set and you just see the next one and how much water and how big it is. And that sinking feeling you get of just like, I don't want to be here.

[B]

It doesn't matter how many videos I watch or, you know, I can watch a hundred foot wave and look at these Nazare waves and think that I know what that's like. But I know, like, there's just no way that I can even come close to grasping what it must be like when you're actually out there. You're being towed in Nasre.

[A]

I haven't served Nazare big, so that I can't say. But like just from my experiences at home and just. We do a lot of paddling, we try to paddle big waves a lot. And so that in itself is just scary because you always get put in situations where you're like, like you'll paddle for the first wave and then you'll miss it and you'll turn around and you're like, I don't even want to know what's behind me right now. And you turn around and the next one's breaking and you're like, okay, I'm good. This is going to be okay. Everything's good.

[B]

That's amazing. Have you had any close calls with sharks or some gnarly, scary wipeouts?

[A]

Wipeouts? I've had a couple. Like, nothing that I've been like really close to death. I've had, you know, moments where I've been like, oh, that was, could have been bad. But a lot where I've seen friends that are really close to us and been in the water when friends are unconscious and being resuscitated on the beach. And I think when you're that close to it and you see it happen that much, it definitely builds this little like, internal fear and causes you to be a little more calculated with what you're doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's just crazy because it could happen at any point. It happens to the best of us and, and surfing's unpredictable, so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it connects you with your own mortality in a way that I think is helpful as a life lesson.

[A]

Oh, it definitely does. It definitely makes you Realize. And I've noticed even since I've had my son, I kind of second guess things sometimes now when I'm in the water and I'm gone to another level, more calculated, of like, I'm gonna wait for a good wave, I'm not gonna force myself on a weird one, that I don't know what it's gonna do.

[B]

Do you think that. That if and when you return to competitive surfing that that little thing in the back of your head of having a son could interfere with performance?

[A]

No, because I've kind of already gone through, like, gone through half of the year. Last year, you know, we had our Tahiti event after my son, like, I. My son was born, and then I went to Tahiti eight days later. Like, it was right then. And we had a pretty good size 12 for that. And I kind of was thinking about it, but then it's crazy. Like, just from competing for so long, the heat starts and I just click into this, like, mode where I'm just like, I'm winning. I'm gonna win. I'm gonna try to win, whatever it takes.

[B]

Yeah, I don't really care about winning, and this shouldn't really be a competition, but I'm definitely gonna win.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. That's what it is. Like, you're like. Before, you're like, oh, this is cool. I'm here. And then the horn rings, and then you're just like, yeah.

[B]

Have you watched that HBO comedy, the Studio? Seen this TV show? There's a really funny episode where they're at, like, the Golden Globes, and Zoe Kravitz is, like, up for an award. And all the press, she's like, I don't understand why art has to compete with each other. And I'm just happy to be here. She's putting on a whole show about how it doesn't matter, and I haven't prepared a speech, and I'm not gonna win anyway. And then behind the scenes, she's like, oh, I'm definitely winning. I've been campaigning for this. There's no way I'm not gonna win. Is like. It's that same thing in a nutshell.

[A]

It's totally that same thing. Yeah, it's just like, there's something just in us that I feel like is competitive. And when you're competing, you're just. You just click in and you're like, I'm going to win. Like, that's what I'm here for.

[B]

What are some of the other, like, lessons that you've learned from surfing being in the ocean that you think are applicable to life. Like, I think there's so much wisdom in the kind of relationship that you have to. Have to not just sport, but, like, you're dealing with the ocean, you know, the unpredictability of it. Like, how do you manage something that's unmanageable, I think, and how that spills over into other aspects of your life.

[A]

For me, a lot of it has come from the competitive side, like I said. Like, I feel like there's so many. It's so many, like, emotional moments in such a short amount of time. And over time, I've built up these, like, tools and stuff, and. And I've been able to, like, start seeing, like, whoa. These apply to my whole life in a sense. Like, I can use these anywhere I am. Like, when I was talking about when I was scared on the boat, like, I. All of a sudden I was like, oh, my gosh, I've been nervous. I've been under pressure like this before. Like, I'm gonna do this breathing and I'm gonna kind of, like, relax into this mode. And. And then I was. I'm able to, like, click into a gear where I'm like, oh, I can make clear decisions on what we're doing now. And so it's pretty. Been pretty amazing for me to, like, be able to compete and then learn all this stuff in this, like, compressed format and then be able to take it to the rest of my life, whether it's business or being on a podcast and being, like, overly nervous of talking in front of people.

[B]

But nothing is made better by nerves and anxiety. Right. Like, you're gonna make your best decisions when you're present and you're calm. And now you have these tools that allow you to inhabit that more fluidly and frequently.

[A]

Yeah. And that's all come from my competing and being in the ocean and the unpredictability of the ocean within competing, where you're being, like, judged and scored and have to perform your best, but perform your best on something, you don't know if it's going to come or not. And so. And being okay with that. So I think I've learned a lot in that sense.

[B]

Yeah. Adaptability.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't control the ocean. You can't control what the press is going to say about you. You can't control what the competitors are going to say or what the next wave is going to be.

[A]

Exactly. And, like, my career has been a lot of injuries back to.

[B]

About expectations and attachments.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, you're expected to be this person. You probably put a lot of pressure on yourself. Things don't always work out. Like, how do you, how do you move forward?

[A]

And you go. And I. And like over time I've just learned that like, I'll go into these deep kind of hard places where I'm just like, oh. Like I feel like I'm not getting out of this hole. Like, I mean, like in this deep hole of like, I can't compete, I'm not doing what I want to do. I don't want to be here, I don't want to be doing this. And then, but just realizing that, like, it's just, it's like, like it just. Not to be cliche, but it comes in waves, you know, like it, it just is. Like you go, you go to this dark place and then you kind of come through it and then you come out of it and you're like, okay, I see that I went through that and what if that happens again? I'll go through it again and I know it won't be forever.

[B]

You know, what would you tell that young 13, 15 year old John John, like, what do you wish he knew that you now know?

[A]

So don't fight it, just enjoy it. Like, I guess just let go to the process of it. Cause what's gonna happen is gonna happen. And I don't know, like it's, it's hard because I wouldn't wanna change anything that's happened. You know, everything I feel like that has happened to me or everything that I've gone through has been because it's been this learning. It's like a life learning lesson of because I didn't know this, I was able to learn this, you know, and so I don't think I would wanna know all everything that I know now because it wouldn't have been as fun.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's a super healthy way to look at it. Of course you wouldn't be the person that you are had you not gone. You have to go through those trials and tribulations to learn these lessons. This is what we're here to do.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You go through these darker moments, these harder moments and whatever it is, and then you learn so much from that. Like, I went through Back to back ACL surgeries 1 after another. Like, and you know, the first one happened when. And I was on one of the best runs of my career. Like I had won two events, got a second, like, and I was like so far in the lead going for my third world title. @ the time. And then I tore my ACL and had it, had to go for an ACL reconstruction. Never had surgery before, done anything like that. And just, I mean, the surgeries are not fun. They're hard to recover from, you know, and so going through that was. Made me realize, like, oh, like, like I'm kind of on this. Like, yeah, like I'm competing and trying to be my best, for sure. But I'm also, it's like the bigger picture of like, my life, I feel like, has been on the mental side of it on this. Like, doesn't matter if I'm competing or if I'm recovering from an injury or if I'm trying to be a dad or whatever I'm doing. I think the process is still the same and the, the things that I'm trying to learn are still the same. So it doesn't matter what I'm doing, it's just I'm still doing, trying to accomplish the same things within my mind, if that makes sense.

[B]

But writ large, it's basically like, how do I show up as the best version of Jon Jon, you know, in the moment to be the most present and available that you possibly can for whatever your experience is.

[A]

So it's just pivoting from one thing to the next, like, oh, I'm all into competing now. Now I'm going to go all into recovering and learning how to heal myself and what are the best things to heal myself and how can I be the best healer that I can be.

[B]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. And today I want to help you better by talking about workplace stress, which is something that is real and also something that's getting worse. In fact, 61% of people globally are dealing with higher than normal stress levels, which, when you understand the very real connection between chronically elevated stress levels and chronic lifestyle disease, is concerning. While we can't walk away from our jobs this summer, we can change our relationship with what we do. Because while a vacation is great, that is not a long term solution. A long term solution requires we take steps towards reducing the negative emotions that we associate with our occupation. And those steps include learning how to navigate daily challenges, set boundaries, develop coping skills, all of which are very difficult. I say this from personal experience, to do alone, which is where therapy comes in. I'm a huge advocate for therapy. I have been for years. And this is something that really isn't just for crisis moments. It's mental maintenance, learning tools to handle whatever the workday throws at you. And BetterHelp really has done a great job of making this accessible. Over 30,000 therapists or 5 million people worldwide. 4.9 out of 5 stars from 1.7 million reviews. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp offers access to a diverse range of mental health professionals with various areas of expertise. Unwind from work with BetterHelp, all of you can get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com richroll that's BetterHelp. H E-L-P.com richroll if there's one thing, one thing that I believe in, it is the power of movement. Which is why I've proudly partnered with on since 2023. They're a premium sportswear brand and what really sets them apart is their relentless dedication to innovation and performance and truly supporting athletes at every level. So last summer I had the unique honor to join ON in Paris to support their Olympic athletes and host a few panels at the ON Labs Paris. And I got to spend time with the engineers responsible for creating ONS next generation gear. And what I walked away with is a real appreciation for the level of attention and intention and innovation that ON puts into every tiny detail of every single thing they create, from materials to construction to sustainability. And I just can't overestimate how inspiring this was to experience firsthand. And what I can tell you, based on my my personal experience and that of many ON athletes, some of the world's best, is that when you wear their gear, you can feel the difference. It's remarkably lightweight, yet also tough enough to handle whatever your training throws at it. And there's that balance between performance and comfort that is rare. And it's what makes ON gear so versatile, whether you're deep in a training cycle or just moving through your day. So head on over to on.com richroll to explore the latest innovations in performancewear. And don't forget to sign up for the newsletter to claim a 10% discount along the way. Whether it's like recovery, healing, mindset, mindfulness, breath, work, like, who have been your influences? Like, have there been books or people? You mentioned Kelly Starrett. Shout out Kelly. He's been helpful to me in my recovery from back surgery. You know, we both know like, what a gem of a human being that guy is. But who are some of the other people that you've turned to or the practices that you've adopted that have been most helpful?

[A]

There's been a bunch of people that I've been able to work with. Like, you know, I mentioned Chris Prosser from Australia. Like, he's was pretty big in helping me, like, learn a lot about myself last year. And then Tim Brown, he's actually here. He's like. Does a lot of. He's a chiropractor. Does a lot of really good work and just healing and stuff. The list goes on. Mike Gervais was another one that.

[B]

Yeah, I was like, I was wondering, you guys must know each other, right? Like, that guy's got to be your sensei.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, you guys are made for each other.

[A]

Yeah. So, Mike, I love that guy. Yeah, He's. He's amazing at what he does and kind of helped me get on this, like, almost, like, clarifying my thoughts on the competitive side of things and, like, putting a structure to it, almost to be able to, like, okay, this isn't like, I'm not working on something random here. This is, like something that I can, like, build and perfect, not perfect, but, like, just build on, you know, he.

[B]

Has so much clarity and his ability to kind of communicate these ideas that are hard to get your head around, to get your mind right are. I mean, he's incredibly gifted at that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's a surfer.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And so he understands it and he gets it. And so there's just been a. There's been a ton of people like that that I've been able to work with through my career and just all different sorts of things, whether it's physical recovery, mental recovery, whatever it is, and learn a lot from it and then take it and go do my own thing with it and remold it into my own thing and be like, okay, now this works for me, you know.

[B]

So if I was Mike Gervais, I would ask you, like, what does mastery look like for you? Like, how would you define mastery?

[A]

I don't think. Yeah.

[B]

Do you think in that context?

[A]

I kind of do, but I kind of don't. Like, I don't think there's. You can ever really become a master of anything. I feel like it's just endless. And I feel like mastery for me is like, I'm really into the internal thinking in the mind, you know, because I feel like once you get a handle on that, you'll never have it perfectly, but you'll be able to apply it to anything that you do. And so I think that's mastery within itself. It's just being able to get a handle on your internal self.

[B]

Mastering the self master is the key to mastering anything else.

[A]

Anything you apply yourself to, well, you're.

[B]

Not going to master Anything if you're not a master of your own mind.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you're just kind of completely acting at random, then I feel like the things you do are going to be at random.

[B]

How do you define success as that evolved over time?

[A]

Yeah, definitely. Like, it's funny, when I was competing and going for my first world title, I was like, okay, world title. That's it. That's what I want. That's like the. Once I do that, that's. I've done it, you know, like, I'll feel good and then it's. It's just the craziest thing. Cause you hear it from other athletes and stuff. They accomplish these huge goals. But when you, like, I accomplish with that and then I finish and you wake up the next day and everything resets.

[B]

You're like, why am I the same guy?

[A]

You're like, I'm the same. Nothing's changed. Like. And so you kind of just keep going on about your day. And that actually was, like, pretty hard for me. Cause I was like, I just chased this whole life thing, thinking that this would be like, I guess, like, solve all my issues and then you win and then you finish it and you're like, everything's exactly the same. Okay, now how do I cope with that? And so, like, figuring out how to cope with that and then, like, come back again and maybe like, okay, now why am I competing? What's the point? You know, because you could go into that mode of just, like, I accomplished it. I'm done. Like, there's no. There's no reason for me to do this anymore. And I think that's where I really started getting into that mode of like, oh, no, I'm kind of going on this bigger picture, longer, full life. It'll take my whole life. And I'll probably never accomplish, like, really getting to know myself and master myself and the decisions that I make.

[B]

So success then is a commitment to self mastery.

[A]

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Commitment. I guess it's a commitment. I think that's a really good way of saying it.

[B]

What's really funny is every single person who's achieved some, you know, audacious goal has the same story. Like, you know, this is like the. Because you have to be sort of insane to chase these things and to achieve them and driven in part by thinking that this is gonna fix whatever broken part you have. You know what I mean? And every single person will say, and then I did it. And then I was the same guy. And it was so disappointing. It's like, you could listen to a thousand versions of that story on a thousand podcasts and read a million books, but we all sort of think that we're gonna be the exception. Like, yeah, but not for me. Like, you don't understand. It's gonna be different. Cause this really works. Will fix me. Or. Or then. But it sounds like where the maturity is. And what you learned was you learned from that and thought, well, winning a second one isn't going to fix it. Like, a lot of people just get on that hedonic treadmill. Like, oh, well, it didn't fix me. But that's because there's this other thing.

[A]

Like, when I get. Maybe if I do this and you just.

[B]

Your whole life, you know, but to, like, learn at a young age, like, that's not the solution. It's an inside job. And there's another focus of my attention and energy that's going to be required if I want to solve that dilemma.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's where it really helps me through, like, bringing up the injuries. Because I just felt like that was such a big part of my road to this last world championship. But, like, it allowed me to go into those and be like, okay, like, like I said before, like, I'm just kind of changing what I'm doing, but I'm still going after my same, like, life goal, you know, and it allowed me to do that really well. And then. Then I healed and then I'm like, okay, now I'm competing again and I'm gonna put my mindset back into this again. And you're always building this one thing, no matter what you're doing in your life.

[B]

Right. Process over outcome. Yeah. Well, it's good that you love surfing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. It makes the process part a lot easier.

[A]

Yeah, it does.

[B]

You know, has there been any thought of thinking, like, do I need to return to WSL and do the competitive thing? Like, you could go and be a Ky Lenny type guy who's like, I don't. Or like a layer. Like, they don't do competitions. Like, they have a life around surfing and they can support themselves and, you know, have these beautiful lives, but they've opted out of that paradigm.

[A]

Yeah, I definitely see that. You know, and I really love, like, sailing and exploration. I think that's probably where I would go if I wasn't good to go back to competing. I'll just continue, like, going and trying to surf new waves and go. Try to go around the world or something. Um, but there's such a big part of me that loves the competitive side because of that, like, just. You learn so much so quickly about yourself, I feel like. And. And I really, really enjoy that. And I still am deeply competitive at heart.

[B]

Yeah. So are you going to race your boat also, or you just want to use it for adventures, or do you feel like you have to get into that world?

[A]

Uh, I don't feel like I have to get into racing. I feel like the learning of, like, exploring and going to these really remote places is enough of a challenge. It's a. Yeah, there's just so much to learn from it. It's. It feels kind of endless. Um, but. And. And that's what I'm enjoying right now. But that's. I. I really do. I go year by year. I'm like, this year, this is what I'm doing. Next year I might be doing the same thing, but I also might be doing something completely different. Different.

[B]

It is unusual for. For surfers to be sail. Like, you hear about foiling and all these different other kinds of, like, you know, like, paddling and all that, but, like, it doesn't seem like there's that many who are committed to sailing, like, at a. At a higher level.

[A]

Yeah, I think there was an era, like, early on, earlier in surfing, you know, with Hobie Alter and Joey Cabell and these earlier guys. These guys that were amazing surfers and what they were doing, but they were also building their own boats and sailing from Hawaii to Tahiti and doing all these other things. Like, it's. So I really, like, am inspired by that, like, generation of just these, like, complete watermen. And no matter what they were doing, like, it didn't have to be coastal, didn't have to be around only waves. Like, it was just the ocean in general and so. And the outdoors. Like, a lot of them did so much stuff in the mountains, and it just. They weren't, like, tied to, like, one category of it.

[B]

Do you. Are you a fan of. Is it World cup sailing? Like, with the. With those super yachts and you.

[A]

What? America.

[B]

America's Cup? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Oracle and like, all these, like, crazy. Is it like the Rolex series or something like that? Like, those insane boats? It's like the Formula One of sailing.

[A]

Yeah, I'm a fan of it. Like, the guys that do it are very athletic and very, like, that mental focus is there, you know, and so I have a few friends that. That do it, and. And so they kind of think on those same wavelengths, I feel like. And then on the other side is the technical Side of it, the things that they're building to make these boats go like, I mean these, those boats are, it can be 10 knots, 10 miles an hour of wind and they're doing 45 miles an hour. Like so that's like pretty crazy to be able to create something that's just going that quickly off the wind.

[B]

From an engineering, just from an engineering.

[A]

Perspective, like, yeah, the engineering part of that for me is really interesting.

[B]

That's an expensive world. Yeah. Like, I don't know what kind of, what kind, what is your, what kind of boat is your boat?

[A]

I have a gunboat 48, it's called, it's a catamaran. It's 48ft and it's super lightweight carbon everything strong and fast. It's a lot of fun to sail.

[B]

And to be able to take it and surf weird places that no one has ever surfed before probably. Right. Is that part of the allure?

[A]

That's definitely part of the allure. Like just like even it could be a one foot wave this big or a ten foot wave. It, it all feels like pretty similar. Like you come around the corner, you're like, look at that little wave. I wonder if someone surf that. I'm going to go surf it. So that's a pretty fun feeling.

[B]

What is your forecast for the next generation of surfers? The young crop that's coming up right now. Like you, you talked about like the professional level that, that you know, athletes are kind of unanimously taking right now. Like what, what can we expect to see like a, like a bump in performance?

[A]

That's a hard one to say. Like as for the performance side of things, I don't really know where surfing will go. I think they'll, it's at such a hard level, it's hard to think of what's going to happen. The wave pools are becoming a pretty big thing and so there's a lot of tricks being done in that.

[B]

Right. Because you can just train consistently, consistently.

[A]

On the same exact thing every time, which is so new to surfing. So it's hard to say what that will look like in 10 or 15 years.

[B]

Um, and more and more those are cropping up, right. So be more ubiquitous and just imagine some kid who was your age when you first started surfing. But they're like in that thing every single day with just, you know, being able to perfect moves on the exact same wave.

[A]

So, and who knows how big the, how big the waves get to in those pools and how good they get in the future and maybe all the events end up being run in those pools. And I think that would shift surfing so much to like a way more performance orientated thing where it's like goes back to that visualization thing where you're like, you can actually like, like visualize the same thing over and over again and work on something and you know, probably go like in the direction of like snowboarding I guess. Seems like like with more spins and flips and things like that. And then on the other side, I think that people are going to just keep taking it more and more seriously. And yeah, I don't know, maybe at some point everyone has like a physical therapist, they have a whole team with them, you know, like everyone, everyone's going to every event right now. I think there's only a few guys that travel with a full team. But like at some point everyone will have their own team and it becomes this performance level that's like across the board up here.

[B]

What was your experience surfing in the Olympics? So two time Olympian, Tokyo and Paris. Was that different from wsl?

[A]

Yeah, it's definitely different. Just because there's a lot of hype around the Olympics and you do a lot of talking before and like, and so like it's like this slow pressure buildup to it and then the realization that you only have one chance at it, you know. And I think like, it was funny when I went to Tokyo. It was like during COVID So it was a really weird Olympics. There was like, not a lot going on. You'd go down and you'd surf your heat, there's no one around and then you'd come in and that it was funny because that one, I had built it up in my head. I'm like, this is the Olympics. And everyone's like telling me, oh, I had some friends that had done the Olympics and they're like, hey, hey, it's, it's a big deal. Like, don't, don't discount that, that it is a big deal. And don't go into it thinking like, it's smaller than it is. And so I went into it and then I was like, what are they talking about?

[B]

Like, like no one's around.

[A]

This is like a normal event. Like. And so when I left like that at that Olympics, I kind of was like, I wish I would have thought more like, no, this is like a normal surf contest. Like. And so when I went into the next one, I was kind of like in more in that mindset, like, I'm going to treat it like a normal event event how I'd Approach a normal event, everything. The thing I didn't realize that was gonna be so different was the. You're. You're very controlled on the lead up to the heat. And so what does that mean? Like, so you have to sit on a certain boat with your coach, and you get the certain amount of time to watch. And then at a certain time, because it's broadcasted, everything has to happen at a certain time so that then at a specific time, you have to go to this next boat, and then you're standing there with your jersey with the other competitor for five minutes or something, and then you're sitting there for five minutes, and then the heat before ends, and you have 45 seconds to get in the water and go. And so it's like this, like, kind of stepped schedule that happens before the heat that was way different than I'm used to.

[B]

So for people that. That don't know, normally you would just be, you know, out with your heat in the water for a certain period of time, and you just get the waves that you get.

[A]

Yeah, well, normally, like, the lead up to your heat starting, like. So I. I have my routine, you know, so my routine. I show up usually an hour before my heat. I watch the heat, the two heats before or the heat before. Then I get ready and the heat just before mine, do my warmup, grab my jersey, go down the beach, find a little space by myself, kind of, like, get into my own little zone, get in the water, and then, like, kind of feel my thing there. And then I'm kind of heading out into my heat. I mean, I've, like, been allowed to, like, do my own little thing to get out there where the Olympics is, like, it was, like, very, like, hey, you have to be here, then you have to be here. Then you have to be here. And you're, like, looking at the time for each thing, and you're like, okay, now I gotta get over there. And then you're standing next to the competitor you're about to surf against, and the waves are big, and there's just like. He's trying to do his thing, and you're trying to do your thing, and. And it's just like a. It was way different than what I'm normally used to.

[B]

Yeah, it's all very regimented and controlled, and you're sort of, you know, corralled from place to place.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

That's ubiquitous, you know, for whatever sport you're in, I think, at the Olympics. But you guys were in a really unique situation because obviously, Paris Olympics. But you're in tv, and I'm watching this on tv. I was actually wish youhvet. I was in Paris.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And we were talking about the surfing, and I was like, it looks like those guys have it pretty good. Like, you were. You were like. Your dorms were on a cruise ship, right?

[A]

Yeah. It was like you were staying on your team. We were actually staying on land.

[B]

And you were.

[A]

Yeah. Team USA had, like, we had an incredible setup. Like. Yeah.

[B]

I was just looking at the cruise ship and I was like, this looks a lot better than, like, what all the athletes in Paris are having to deal with and having to get on buses and all that. But Gervais told me me that actually it was. It was quite challenging because that cruise ship was so far from where the surf points were, and they would have to get up early and take these other boats and then go to land and then take other boats out. Like, there was a lot of, like, logistical issues.

[A]

If you're on the cruise ship, it was a mission to get to your. He, like, even more so than I was saying. Like, yeah, you got to get on a boat to the land site, then you're on the land site waiting for another boat to get on out to the wave, and then you go through the whole thing. I just explained.

[B]

Yeah. And where I live, I walk out my front door and go right to Pipeline.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Why can't it be like that?

[A]

Yeah. So it was. It was just definitely different in that sense. Like, and I wish.

[B]

Adaptability.

[A]

Yeah. And I just didn't. I don't know. I, Like, I. I underplayed it in my mind leading up to it. And so when it came to that moment for me, I was like, oh, this is, like, way different than I was expecting also to. Not to mention the week leading up, you have set practice times. So, hey, you're gonna go practice from 9:30 to 10 tomorrow with these two other teams. Where normally it's like, I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna go surf. When I think my first. Around the same time my first heat is. And I'm gonna play it like that. Where this was just like, it was scheduled all the way through. Yeah.

[B]

So you. You. You don't have that ability to. To control your. Yeah, it was your routine.

[A]

It was really interesting, though, because it caught me off guard a little bit. And when I got caught guard, I got so nervous. And then it was really hard to come back from that nervousness of like, oh, okay. Like, wait, this is. This is not what I was expecting. And it was just one of those moments where you, like, realize you're like, I'm so far from being, like, totally a master at doing this.

[B]

Like, so do you feel the pull to go back? Like, is there unfinished business there, there?

[A]

Yeah, for sure. I think the. The Olympics is such a fun challenge just because it is pretty different and it's such a. Just a big event.

[B]

So LA28, where are they going to do the surfing?

[A]

They're having it down south at Lower Trestles.

[B]

Well, you know it well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you've done well there.

[A]

A little separated, but it would be pretty cool to be a part of that.

[B]

Well, it's a little more approximate than Tahiti and Paris.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

LA28 is going to be interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I hope. I hope the city can be ready for it. I know, but it's pretty exciting. It's going to be.

[A]

That's so exciting. I hope I can be a part of it.

[B]

In terms of. I want to get back to, like, the life lessons, you know, that you learn from the ocean. It is a very. Not necessarily Buddhist, but kind of like a Eastern philosophical, kind of spiritual relationship that you have to have with nature in order to perform. And I feel like that gives surfers a really interesting perspective on life. Like, we talked about adaptability and presence and, you know, mindfulness. Like, are there other ripples or aspects of what you do that you think are interesting for the average person to hear about, that they could glean something interesting for their own life?

[A]

It's hard to say whether it's just from the ocean or not just purely from the ocean. But I guess the one thing is just that connection to nature. You're out there, you're surfing, there's wildlife, there's waves, you're reading the ocean and you're kind of in this space. And I guess the one thing I've learned is, like, I don't know how good it is for you to be out in nature, to be out in that kind of, like, just whether it's in the mountains or in the water or whatever it is. Like, I think it's like, yeah, like, deeply, innately good for the human body and mind and everything. And I know for myself especially, like, if I go surf for 20 minutes and I'm just by myself in the water, like, I come out like a different person. You know, if I go for a hike in the mountains by myself, like, you come out like a different person and you just. That feeling of being outside and just Kind of like, like we talked about that before of that feeling of like letting go. I think that's what happens kind of in nature. It allows you to have that feeling of just like, ah, okay, I'm letting, I'm kind of letting go to just everything. Everything's just kind of happening, you know.

[B]

And a humility.

[A]

Yeah, the humility. Like you can't control it. It's just. It is what it is. And I think being okay with that, not being able to control it, you.

[B]

Live a pretty holistic lifestyle overall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would say in the grand scheme, modern society, you know, most of the time, barefoot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Salt water, drenched.

[A]

Exactly. Like, it's just every day at the beach, every day in the water. And the mountains are just where I feel the best.

[B]

Is it strange when you travel and suddenly you're in some huge city?

[A]

I think California has always been the, like, I spend a lot of time here. Our. We have our main offices for our business here and stuff. And every time I fly into California, I don't know, like when you fly in at night and it's just this like, to Los Angeles, crazy gridlock of lights, you know, it's like you're looking at it, you're just like, oh my gosh. To me, it's surreal. Every time it feels like a different world. And then you get here and it's just like life is so fast. Everything's moving so quick. It feels like everyone's in a rush to get somewhere.

[B]

No, it's just that you guys are going too slow.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Like, we travel to Hawaii and you're like, like, come on with the coffee line.

[A]

You know, everyone's just like, ah, it's all good. Like we're doing our thing.

[B]

Are you still a beekeeper?

[A]

Yeah, we have our beehive still.

[B]

What is that all about?

[A]

Just another thing that I. I don't know, I get. Get into all these different little hobbies. I see it and then I get really obsessed about it. And then I'm just like, oh, I gotta know, I gotta try. Or I gotta see what that's about.

[B]

You've been doing that for a while.

[A]

Yeah, we've had the beehives for a while. We have a couple friends that help us with. With it a lot because we travel so much. But just getting to learn it and understand. Understand it a little bit. Like, it's such a complex little system. I don't know it. It's so interesting to me to. Every time we like, open up the hives, just the system that the bees have and how they work, it's pretty incredible.

[B]

And do you keep the honey or, like, sell it at the farmer's market or.

[A]

We don't sell it, we hoard it.

[B]

That's a lot of honey.

[A]

Yeah. No, so we have the hives. Like, we lose some hives sometimes. Sometimes we get more. So we've caught like, a few swarms, and then you gain two more hives. And so sometimes we've had up to like, six hives, and then I think right now we have four. So it depends, like, and which ones are, like, producing. It's pretty amazing. Like, all the hives are within a couple feet of each other, you know, like, standing right next to each other. And one hive could have found and, like, nectar and flowers at one spot, but the hive next to it could be totally suffering and not have found it. It's so crazy how that, how that works like that. And so it's always a balance of, like, getting honey out of the right ones and leaving the other ones not touching em. So it's not always as much honey as you would think.

[B]

Yeah, I would. I. I would have thought it's just cranking out honey all the time.

[A]

No, we. We definitely get like, gallons of honey each time we harvest, like, once a year. But.

[B]

Yeah. And. And where does the photography enter the picture? Like, you're a big Leica guy, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So people who are into Leica are like, they're super into Leica.

[A]

Yeah, I like the Leica's a lot. I have two Leicas. But I got into it, like, my mom was always shooting photos when we were on the road. And then I kind of just got into it at one point. And then it was random because I was like, I was on a trip and a friend had a range finder kind of camera that's pretty cool type of camera. And then I just looked, I was like, what's the best type of rangefinder? And then everyone was like, talking about, like, leicas, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna get one of these. And that first Leica that I bought at that time, I think I was like 17 or 18 or something. I still have it. I still use it all the time. And it's just such a solid little camera. It's fun to shoot. It makes you think about the photo more. But also I just think there's. It's a little bit of a novel. Like, it's kind of a novelty of a camera.

[B]

It is. Uh, and when you see a Leica, you know, it like there's something distinctive, like you can't quite put your finger.

[A]

On it, but you can tell through the lenses. You know, they have their colors that come through the lenses, the colors that come through on their sensors also on their new cameras. Like it's pretty distinctive to Leica.

[B]

Have you been to the Leica Gallery here in la?

[A]

No, I haven't.

[B]

It's. You would, you would dig it. It's pretty cool. Yeah. So you take that when you travel and you've just been chronicling playing your life.

[A]

Yeah, I don't.

[B]

Like, I saw some videos where you're showing somebody some black and whites.

[A]

I don't know what to do with my photos and I'm like too lazy to like really actually do anything with them. So I just kind of like keep storing them and keep organizing them. But I love taking the photos. All these places we go. I have a Leica M10 and an M7 that shoots film and the M7 was the first one I bought. And then for the longest time I just shot black and white and developed my own black and white and my house mouse. And that was really fun to learn that process. It's just a whole different side to it. So many variables that you can like change and adjust. And on the back end of shooting.

[B]

A photo, do you enjoy the, the content aspect of your job? Like the idea that you have to be putting out these videos all the time? Like there seems to be like an endless appetite for surf videos. Like, people love it, but I would imagine like there's. You seem like kind of a. You don't seem like somebody who's like seeking the spotlight or who, who's like getting off on that kind of thing.

[A]

No, it's funny for me because I am torn between the whole thing. Like my brother is really good at. He has like a YouTube and he's like kind of a big personality in that way. And he gets it all out there every minute, like Instagram and YouTube and all this stuff. And for me it's a lot harder because I don't want really anything to do with that treadmill. But I love the art side of putting together projects and film and videos. And it's getting to a funny point because everyone just craves these really short YouTuber Instagram things. And they're like liking the more raw, just low edited kind of side of it. And for me I'm like, I don't want to do that. I want to put together these really nice things, but they take so long. But by the time they come out. It's like old news for everyone.

[B]

Well, this is the, this is the tension between art and commerce. Right. It's like what I like and what's cool versus what the algorithm likes or what people want to see.

[A]

I think the algorithm just wants that raw, quick, short in your face, like in the moment. I'm mad at that.

[B]

Did you. You might. You grew up with Koa Smith, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he's like making YouTube videos all the time. I've watched a bunch of his videos. He seems like he enjoys it. Like he's more of a natural. Natural making that kind of vloggy stuff.

[A]

Yeah, I think, I think Koa enjoys it a lot. And it's interesting to me because, like, he's. Yeah. Kind of natural, like really into mindfulness and breathing and stuff. And so I'd be. I actually haven't asked him, but I want to now. But like how he balances that, you know, because it is. They're kind of counter and counterintuitive in a way. Yeah.

[B]

Right. If you're, if you're talking about being present and mindful, but you're, you're making.

[A]

Content out of it. Yeah. So it's like, how do you do that? I want to know.

[B]

And in this sabbatical year, like, your sponsors are cool. You've got buy in and support to do this. Is that a challenge too? Back to the kind of economics and business side of how you make everything work.

[A]

Really see it as a sabbatical. It's more of like just putting my energy into a different place. And so a lot of my partnerships, I've been fortunate enough to be able to partner with people that I'm really aligned with, like, and that their values align with my values. And so when I said I was like, oh, I want to go sailing and adventure with my family and do projects around that, everyone's like, great, that sounds awesome. You know, and so I think that's the benefit of like one having my own brand, that I just do that and then the other ones are just like, everyone's in line with that and everyone is like, all about getting outdoors and the outdoor life. And that's kind of become part of my inspiration behind my own brand. And just what I kind of represent, I guess, is that trying to inspire people to get outdoors is a big one for me because I, like, I've spent so much time in and around the ocean that you just want to protect it and you want to do all these things to protect it. And then I kind of Came to a realization that, like, it's really hard to tell someone that hasn't spent much time in the ocean or around it, hey, you should protect. This is pretty important. They have to have their own connection point. They have to have their own experience with it that to want to do that. And so I figured out, I figured the best way is to get. Is to inspire people to go outside and find their own connection to it.

[B]

You know, it would be hard to. If you're somebody who's in the ocean all the time or you're in the mountains all the time, it would be difficult to not be an environmentalist.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Like, you're in it every day, you're seeing things other people change. Like, what is it, what is the message that you want to impart around sustainability and environmental awareness without bludgeoning people over the head.

[A]

No, but it's a hard one, you know, because like, if, like I said, like, if you're not out there and seeing it and feeling it and like have those amazing moments in it and then see the changes that happen, like it's really.

[B]

Yeah. Or be in the Philippines or somewhere and see all the garbage or, you.

[A]

Know, see the changes to someone who's never seen that or been a part of that. So, like, I just have gone more to the side of like, I just want to get people like excited to go outside, you know, and so on that side of it is like, yeah, I think once they get excited, then it's a lot easier to have that conversation and be like, oh, check out this. This is pretty interesting.

[B]

You know, where do you see yourself in five years? Like, do you think about that or are you just. You're so present and mindful, you're in your moment, dude.

[A]

Five years is really hard to say. I could still be on my boat.

[B]

I mean, you have goals, you have dreams, you have things you want to accomplish.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. My brand has become a really big one. Like growing that and growing that and the right way and doing things responsible and making things that are really great. Like, I think that's a big part of my five year goal. I have these competitive dreams still that I would love to do the Olympics, another world title, things like that. But then I also like want to go sailing around the world and that takes a couple years and experience all these different cultures and places way out there and surf amazing waves. So I don't know if I can do that all in five years. So I kind of got to like take it year by year and be like, okay, this year I'm doing this, I'm going all in on this.

[B]

And that pendulum swings.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

The balance meter.

[A]

Yeah. And each year you're like, okay, how am I going to.

[B]

If I'm sailing around the world, is my life in balance?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. You know, it depends on how you define that, I guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What would your advice be to a young, up and cominging surfer with dreams of glory and a commitment to excellence? Like, what have you learned that you would want to impart to the younger generation?

[A]

I think what I've learned is like, it's really important to find your own way and kind of let that process happen because you see a lot of kids now and they're being coached from such a young age to become whatever they are. But I think like, it's so important to kind of go down your own path and feel those mistakes yourself, learn things yourself, because then it's just ingrained in you and you find your own path that's going to make you your best. Like me and you, for example, like, we're going to have totally different approaches to something to be our best. And so that's what I would try to explain is like, really let it happen for yourself and make your own mistakes.

[B]

Yeah, it's self understanding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, when you're young, you need guidance and you need externality, like somebody else to like guide you. Right. But at some point, how do you have to take ownership of that?

[A]

Yeah. And being able to take it, like, I like that a lot. Like being able to take ownership of, of the mistakes or of your failures or of your losses. Not. I lost because my coach told me to do this.

[B]

Like.

[A]

No, you lost because you made that decision to do that, you know, and so taking ownership of that, that's when you really start to learn and that's when things just start to like steamroll, I feel like is when you're able to come in from a heat and you've lost and you go, yep, I didn't surf that wave. Well, I didn't go on that wave or whatever it is. It's, it's no one else's decision making but your own.

[B]

But there are like all the young kids are, have coaches, right?

[A]

Yeah, it's a crazy thing and I think I don't want to discount that at all. Like having a coach is so important. Like I worked with Ross Williams for the last eight years now, like through my three world titles, and it was so fun to be able to have someone to be able to like. But the way we worked was, like, I would. He's always there as my sounding board to be able, like, hey, I want to start going in this direction. This is what I'm looking to do. And then he would kind of give a little, oh, that looked really good when you did that. And then I would come in and look at the footage and go, oh, you're right. That did look really good. That didn't feel good when I was out there, but that actually looks good. I'm gonna keep working on that. And so just someone to kind of help pull you back to reality sometimes. Cause it's really easy to get caught up in your own mess of mental stuff.

[B]

You need an outside perspective who's objective.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that relationship should be collaborative.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, like, Ross has, like, always been there and really good at helping me get to, like, feeling my best, feeling confident and feeling like, okay, like, I'm in my space, you know? And, like, my whole team has been that, you know, like, of, like, we've kind of worked on this, like, relationship of this. Like, when I go out to heats, I, like, I feel confident, I feel good. I feel like I'm doing the right stuff. I've had so many sessions where I've come in before a contest, like, the day before, and. And I'm like, that board felt terrible. I didn't feel good. I felt slow, sluggish. And he's like, what are you talking about? Like, you look totally normal. You look fast. And just that day, in my head, I was not feeling like I thought I should be feeling. But then I come in and I talk to him. Then I watch the clips, and I'm like, you're right. That's in my head.

[B]

Short of that, like, without that external feedback, when you get into that negative mindset or you start to spiral, like, how do you. How do you pull yourself out of that? Or how do you kind of maintain a positive mental attitude?

[A]

I think breathing has been a lot of that. Like, you and self realization, like, in that, like, oh, I see that. I'm starting to spiral. Okay, I'm gonna take a couple deep breaths. I have these tools that kind of, like, help me get, like, just kind of get yourself out of that mindset for a second. And then for me, it's like. It's like a breathing, a couple thoughts to, like, reminders to, like, get myself jump started out of that. And then. Then a couple small things that I can do really easily. Like I said earlier, like, I'm gonna Take off my wave and do. Do a turn and then see what happens after that. Um, and so for me, that's like, my steps that, like, I go through during a heat, if I get into that, like, really negative space.

[B]

What is the specific breathwork practice? Is there one or you have a. Like a. A battery of different ones that you do?

[A]

I have, like, a bunch of different ones. Like, there's like a. I found like, like a Wim HOF type breathing. Like, maybe not exact, but similar. Like, before competition, I always like doing it. It, like, really helps me if I'm nervous, get like, just all the nerves and stuff out, and I feel really, like, confident after. Um, so that's like, one during. It can be more of, like, a really deep breath to, like, holding it and then, like, like, kind of one I learned from Mike, but, like, deep breath and then, like, a little more and just feeling the tension and then just relaxing and letting everything relax with that. Um, and I. Sometimes I'll do that during heats or during heats. I'll do like, like a quick, like, in and out, like, through the nose only and just kind of getting that focus and counting that. And just little ones that, like, kind of help you just, like, get you.

[B]

Out of whatever you're calm your nervous system down. Like, it's incredibly reliable and effective.

[A]

It is. You're doing it all day. You might as well.

[B]

So you are flying out tonight. You're going to Fiji. Like, you're basically living on a boat in Fiji right now. Right. And so what, you know, what is the. What's the plan for this year? Or just follow your muse and be with your family. Yeah.

[A]

So there's kind of like, a few things. Like, I really want to learn that aspect about the ocean. I want to learn more about navigating and weather and all that stuff. I want to learn, like, going to these remote areas and being able to surf. I want to learn to do it with my family on board and spend every moment with my son, watching him grow. And then it's great because my brand is, like, built around. Around being outdoors in these, like, environments.

[B]

It's also in service to the brand.

[A]

Yeah. So I get to, like, test all this amazing gear and be like, this works. This doesn't work at all. And so I feel like it's like, a really good fun. Just everything's kind of flowing together with it.

[B]

Yeah, that's beautiful, man. Where can people buy your Florence gear? Is it in retail stores?

[A]

Yeah, we're in a bunch of retail stuff, and then we're online, too, which is probably the easiest for most people.

[B]

What's the website for?

[A]

For that. It's florence marinex.com.

[B]

I think you should create a. A new website just for your photos.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As a creative project.

[A]

I've been. I've been thinking about it, like, something. Yeah, it's on my mind.

[B]

There's some beautiful stuff just in. Some of the stuff that I saw. Like, it's really nice. I think people would enjoy that.

[A]

Thanks. Yeah, it's definitely on my mind. I just have to get around it.

[B]

I always love athletes that are also artists or who aren't afraid to also pursue their creative whimsy. You know, I grew up in a time where it's like, you can't be both. Like, you're. You're an athlete or pick your lane. You know what I mean? And I. And. And it's always. It's always really cool to see athletes who, who don't buy into that and are like, no, I'm. I'm doing both of these things.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's.

[B]

And they don't compete with each other.

[A]

It's fun to be able to pursue whatever you want to pursue. Life. Life's pretty free. Like, you can just like, okay, I like taking photos. I'm going to start taking some photos, you know, and being okay with that. You're. That's how you surf, or that's how your photos look, or that's who you are.

[B]

All right, man, well, last thing. Let's wrap it up. What is. What is. What is the. The one nugget of wisdom you want to leave people with about your unique life experience, this path that you've taken, the high highs, the low, low, Those that you want to go out with here.

[A]

No pressure, I might say.

[B]

Do you want to take a brew? We'll do some breath work first.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I might say something completely different next year or the year after that, because I feel like it's.

[B]

Well, no, this is where. This is a snapshot of your life. This is where you're in your life. Like, you. I feel like you're in a really good place with your life right now. You would have to be to make the decisions that you're making right now.

[A]

Yeah, I think a snapshot of where I am right now is like, just knowing a direction. Knowing a direction you want to go, having that goal set, but then just enjoying the process to that, whatever that might be. So it's not overthinking of, like, I got to get this job or I got to win this goal. But like going like, okay, that's the direction I want to go and I'm going to start here and then I'm just going to take it step by step and enjoy whatever that process is. And I think you can apply that to kind of like anything you're doing and being okay, whether you fail or maybe you have end up doing something completely different. But just having a direction and a starting point and taking a step to do it.

[B]

I think that's solid advice, man. Great to meet you. Thanks for doing this man. I really appreciate it. This was, this was super special and super fun for me.

[A]

Yeah, fun conversation. Come back anytime. Thank you.

[B]

And you are an inspiration, dude. Like I love watching you do your thing. It's you're, you're touched in many ways ways and I'm a fan and wish you well and can't wait to see you know what the next chapter of your life looks like.

[A]

Awesome. Thanks for having me.

[B]

Cheers. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related related to everything discussed today, visit the episode [e-mail] where you can find the entire podcast archive. My books Finding Ultra Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way if you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com sponsors and finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter which you can find find on the footer of any [e-mail] Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Cameolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our Creative Director, Dan Drake, Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor and of course our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatta Wyatt and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace Plants Namaste.