Podcast
The Systemic Way
Hosted by Sezer and Julie · EN
This podcast gives the listener an opportunity to hear conversations with people from the field of systemic psychotherapy. Host Sezer and Julie, two systemic and family psychotherapists, discuss a wide range of topics, theories, practices and experiences with their guests, giving the listener an insight into this disciplines contribution to social change.
Artwork by Arai Drake Creative: http://www.araidrake.com/portfolio/thesystemicway/Music by Rena Paid
We are now being supported by the Association of Family Therapy (AFT).
25episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Reflexive Inquiry and Meaning-Making in Organisations: In conversation with Christine Oliver
1w ago01:19:47Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we are joined by pioneering systemic psychotherapist, organisational consultant, and author Christine Oliver for a rich conversation exploring systemic approaches to organisational life, leadership, and change.Drawing from over 30 years of experience across the NHS, charities, international organisations, faith communities, and private consultancy, Christine reflects on how systemic and social constructionist ideas can help organisations navigate complexity, conflict, hierarchy, and uncertainty.Together, we explore reflexive inquiry, relational leadership, organisational culture, moral story-making, appreciative inquiry, and the power of conversation in shaping teams and systems. Christine shares insights from her influential work in consultancy and psychotherapy, including how organisations can create spaces where people think together with greater clarity, accountability, and respect.We also discuss power and positionality in organisations, the challenges of leadership, and how systemic practitioners can work collaboratively in ways that move beyond expert-driven models of change.This episode will be valuable for therapists, leaders, consultants, coaches, educators, and anyone interested in applying systemic thinking beyond the therapy room.Christine brings warmth, wisdom, and decades of experience to this thoughtful and deeply practical conversation.http://www.christineoliver.net/
Transcribe →From Modalities to Relational Meaning: A Systemic Turn in Integrative Counselling - With Rick Murphy and Lisa Dvorjetz.
4w ago01:03:22Tap to summarizeIn this episode of The Systemic Way, we speak with Rick Murphy and Lisa Dvorjetz about their book A Systemic Approach to Integrative Counselling (2024) and the growing need to bring relational thinking into everyday therapeutic practice.Together, we explore how familiar counselling models such as person-centred, psychodynamic, CBT, Gestalt, and action-based approaches can be reworked through systemic ideas of context, relationships, patterns, and meaning. Rather than locating distress solely within the individual, Rick and Lisa invite us to consider how problems are shaped and sustained through interaction, culture, family histories, and wider social systems.We discuss what this means for therapists working one-to-one, how counsellors can develop systemic thinking without abandoning their core model, and why integration needs more than simply combining techniques. This is a rich conversation about practice, ethics, creativity, and the future of counselling.Essential listening for counsellors, psychotherapists, family therapists, trainees, supervisors, and anyone interested in moving beyond individualised understandings of human struggle.A Systemic Approach to Integrative Counselling (Amazon)https://amzn.eu/d/02FDlcHh
Transcribe →Inside EFTA-RELATES 2025: Challenging Indifference, Creating Connection, Shaping the Future of the Systemic Field
Mar 2701:32:53Tap to summarizeCelebrating our 100th episode of The Systemic Way Podcast.We took The Systemic Way to @EFTA-RELATES 2025 Congress in Lyon and stepped into a space shaped by change, tension, and possibility.Across four days, we spoke with therapists, researchers, and practitioners working at the edges of systemic practice. You hear their reflections, their challenges, and the moments that stayed with them. From conversations on migration, trauma, and social justice, to explorations of family therapy, organisational work, and community resilience, this episode captures what it felt like to be in the room.This congress brought together voices from across the European Family Therapy Association and Red Europea y Latinoamericana de Escuelas Sistémicas. It created dialogue across difference. It held both innovation and uncertainty. It asked what systemic practice can offer in a world shaped by rapid scientific change and ongoing violence.In this episode, you hear how people are responding. How they are working with complexity. How they are holding onto hope.Real conversations. Lived experiences. Systemic thinking in action.A massive thank you to Umberta Telfener, Parveen Kaur, Yvonne Rose, Ana Draper (she/her), Poppy Thorn, @Karen Franco; Matej Vajda, Carol Jolliffe, Jennifer McKinney, Francesca Balestra<
Transcribe →Felt Sense Polyvagal Dialogue in Family Therapy: With Jan Winhall
Mar 2001:24:25Tap to summarizeIn this episode of The Systemic Way, we sit down with renowned psychotherapist, author, and educator Jan Winhall to explore the transformative power of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model (FSPM). With over four decades of clinical experience, Jan invites us into a radically compassionate, body‑based understanding of trauma, addiction, and healing.Together, we unpack how the body’s survival responses are not signs of pathology but intelligent adaptations—messages that deserve curiosity rather than shame. Jan shares the origins of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model, how it integrates polyvagal theory with focusing-oriented therapy, and why shifting from “What’s wrong with you?” to “What happened in you?” can reshape therapeutic practice.We also dive into the practical: embodied exercises, the role of safety and co-regulation, and how therapists can create spaces where clients reconnect with their felt sense and reclaim agency. Whether you’re a clinician, educator, or simply someone interested in the intersection of neuroscience and compassion, this conversation offers a grounded, hopeful reframe of what it means to heal.A rich, generous dialogue with one of the leading voices in embodied trauma work—this is an episode you won’t want to miss.Jan Winhall, M.S.W., R.S.W., F.O.T., is a psychotherapist, author, and educator with more than 40 years of experience working at the intersection of trauma, addiction, and embodied healing. She is the developer of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model (FSPM), an innovative framework that integrates polyvagal theory with focusing‑oriented therapy to offer a compassionate, non‑pathologizing understanding of human suffering and resilience.Jan is an Adjunct Lecturer at the University of Toronto, an Educational Partner with the Polyvagal Institute, and the Founder and Director of the Felt Sense Polyvagal Institute, where she trains practitioners around the world. Her influential book, Treating Trauma and Addiction with the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model, has become a touchstone for clinicians seeking embodied, relational approaches to healing.Across her teaching, writing, and clinical work, Jan invites us to listen to the body’s wisdom, honour survival responses as adaptive, and create therapeutic spaces rooted in safety, curiosity, and connection. She is widely recognised for bridging neuroscience with systemic, relational practice in ways that are accessible, hopeful, and deeply human.
Transcribe →Adolescence: Toxic Masculinity, Online Radicalisation, and Systemic Responsibility. Systemic Lens ep. 4.
Feb 401:23:52Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we’re turning our attention to the UK drama Adolescence — a series that begins with a single, shocking event but quickly reveals a much wider web of responsibility.Rather than focusing solely on the actions of one young person, the drama draws us into the interconnected systems surrounding him: family, school, peer culture, mental health services, and the criminal justice system.Using a systemic psychotherapy lens, we’ll explore how meaning, behaviour, and risk are produced within relationships — and how patterns of communication, power, silence, and inaction shape what unfolds. We’ll look at not just what happens on screen, but what fails to happen: where systems don’t speak to each other, where responsibility is displaced, and where intervention comes too late. Adolescence invites us to move away from simple narratives of blame and instead ask more complex questions about how distress is held — or missed — across the wider system.We are joined by the regular Systemic Lens Team of Becky Midlane, Anokh Goodman, Danilen Nursigadoo, Nafeesa Nizami (Naz).
Transcribe →Once Upon A Time In Grandmotherland: Myths, Meanings and Cultural Discourses with Dr Judith Edwards
Jan 1600:46:28Tap to summarizeIn Grandmotherland, Dr Judith Edwards offers an exploration of Grandmotherhood as an intergenerational, relational, and socially constructed position. Drawing on myth, fairy tales, family narratives, and contemporary lived experience, she examines how dominant cultural discourses shape expectations of grandmothers and organise family roles, boundaries, and power across generations. Judith attends to patterns of transmission, alliance, exclusion, and care, situating Grandmotherhood within wider socio-economic and cultural contexts—including the increasing reliance on grandmothers for childcare. Grandmotherland invites systemic practitioners and scholars to rethink grannyhood not as a fixed role, but as a dynamic position shaped by relationships, histories, and social structures.Judith Edwards is a child and adolescent psychotherapist who has worked for over thirty years at the Tavistock Clinic in London. Love the Wild Swan: The Selected Works of Judith Edwards was published by Routledge in their World Library of Mental Health series, and her edited book, Psychoanalysis and Other Matters: Where Are We Now? was also published by Routledge. From 1996 to 2000, she was joint editor of the Journal of Child Psychotherapy. Apart from her clinical experience, one of her principal interests is in the links between psychoanalysis, culture, and the arts, as well as making psychoanalytic ideas accessible to a wider audience. She has an international academic publishing record and in 2010 was awarded the Jan Lee memorial prize for the best paper linking psychoanalysis and the arts during that year: ‘Teaching & Learning about Psychoanalysis: Film as a teaching tool’.
Transcribe →On Age-in-Therapy: In Conversation with Carole Hunt, Daniel Blake and Polly Kaiser of the DWP Age Group
Dec 2101:20:49Tap to summarizeIn this episode of The Systemic Way, we talk about age in the room—listening for it not as decline, but as presence, memory, and becoming. Drawing inspiration from Maya Angelou’s On Aging, where she writes of being “old as the hills, and far from done,” we explore lifecycle transitions, working with older people, and how a therapist’s age is read, misread, and positioned in the therapeutic relationship.We reflect on age as a cultural and systemic story: how wisdom, power, invisibility, authority, and expectation are shaped across generations and communities. This is a conversation about the assumptions we inherit, the vitality that persists, and what age—spoken and unspoken—brings into systemic practice.
Transcribe →Why Dialogue Cures: In Conversation with Dr Jaako Seikkula
Nov 3001:19:14Tap to summarizeIn this episode we speak with no other than Dr. Jaako Seikkula on this latest bookWhy Dialogue Does Cure: Explaining What Makes Dialogue Unprecedentedly Effective in Difficult Crises (2025). The book presents the core principles of Open Dialogue, a system of psychiatric care and dialogic psychotherapy that has spread to over 40 countries. Why Dialogue Does Cure explores the transformative power of Open Dialogue, a radically humanistic approach to mental health care developed in Western Lapland. This episode unpacks why dialogic practice—where clinicians, clients, families, and networks meet in shared conversation—can lead to recoveries unimaginable in conventional psychiatry.Together we discuss the history, development and discovery of how Open Dialogue redefined care: not by aiming to eliminate symptoms, but by meeting the full human through transparent, team-based dialogue.Dr. Seikkula argues that the widening gap between humanistic and conventional approaches must be bridged—and that dialogue itself can be curative. This episode is essential listening for psychotherapists, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, and anyone interested in meeting the full human in therapeutic practice. Seikkula, J. (2025). Why dialogue does cure: explaining what makes dialogue unprecedentedly effective in difficult crises.
Transcribe →White Nanny, Black Child: Systems of Care, Silence and Survival - in conversation with Micheal Henry
Oct 2601:29:23Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we reflect on the deeply moving documentary White Nanny, Black Child (2023), which explores Britain’s “farming” system — a practice through which over 70,000 West African children were fostered by white British families between 1955 and 1995.Through the voices of nine adults who reunite to share their experiences, the film opens up tender and painful reflections on identity, belonging, and survival. We listen to the echoes of care and silence that continue to shape lives long after childhood — and we explore how systems of care can become systems of control when infused with colonial legacies and racialised assumptions.We speak with Micheal Henry, the systemic therapist who facilitated the Tree of Life work featured in the film. Himself care-experienced, he shares his personal and professional reflections on holding space for these stories — the tensions of being both witness and participant — and the power of collective narrative practices in reconnecting people with identity, community, and pride.Together, we consider what this story teaches us about how care systems remember, forget, and repair. How do we, as systemic practitioners, listen to what was once unspeakable? How do we make space for histories that live inside the present? And what might healing look like — for individuals, families, and the systems that raised them?An invitation to think, feel, and reflect systemically on survival, silence, and the enduring search for belonging.Film Reference:White Nanny Black Child. Directed by Andy Mundy-Castle, Doc Hearts and Tigerlily Productions, Channel 5, 2023.Micheal Henry Bio:Michael Henry, is an African-centred Systemic Family and Couples Psychotherapist based in North London. With over 30 years of experience supporting individuals, families, and organisations, Michael brings deep insight into complex trauma, relationships, and identity.A UKCP and AFT-accredited clinician, Michael’s approach blends Systemic Psychotherapy, African Psychology, and Integrative practice, drawing on training in Narrative Therapy, Gottman Method, Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), EMDR, and Brainspotting.Born and raised in East London to Jamaican parents, Michael’s work is grounded in cultural awareness, compassion, and wisdom. His journey—from youth work and child protection to psychotherapy and organisational consulting—reflects a lifelong commitment to understanding how people grow, heal, and connect.
Transcribe →Still We Listen - Where Whispers Move: Systemic Reverberations of Tracy Chapman's Music with DWP Race Group
Oct 1201:49:47Tap to summarizeIn this very special episode we sit down with members of the DWP - Race Group (Shakira Nkanang, Calvin Malcom and John Burnham) as we turn our systemic lens on the iconic album by Tracy Chapman (Tracy Chapman 1988). We ask, how does Tracy Chapman's album provide a soundtrack for confronting race, power, and privilege in therapeutic practice? What do the anthems of our lives reveal about the systems we live in? We unpack how "Talkin' 'bout a Revolution" isn't just a protest song, but a sharp analysis of how power maintains itself by dismissing dissent as a "whisper." We explore "Fast Car" as a devastating map of intergenerational poverty and the gendered family roles that keep people trapped in cycles of false hope. And we listen closely to "Baby Can I Hold You," hearing the profound relational miscommunication and emotional withdrawal that can microcosm the failures of larger systems to truly hear and respond. This episode connects the political, the economic, and the intimately personal, revealing how Chapman's work gives us a language to explore the systems that shape our clients' worlds—and our own. This conversation is more than an analysis of music; it's a living example of how to grapple with systemic themes to transform training, therapeutic practice, and organisations themselves. Join us for a session that bridges art and action, and discover how Chapman’s revolutionary whispers can continue to inspire our own.Calvin Malcolm is a Principal Family and Systemic Psychotherapist working in Devon Partnership Trust Adult Mental Health Services, he is also a Systemic Family Psychotherapist with 26 years of CAMHS experience. He is a Guest Lecturer on the DClinPsy Systemic Teaching at The University of Exeter, and Guest lecturer on the Plymouth University Intermediate level in Family Therapy Course. He is a Systemic Psychotherapy Tutor for doctors in training in Devon. He is also a Systemic Supervisor and a member of The Association of Family Therapy organisation that supports Family and Systemic Psychotherapy training and practice standardsJohn Burnham trained as a Social Worker in 1974 and went on to become Consultant Family and Systemic Psychotherapist in the Inpatient Service for Eating Disorders at Parkview Clinic, Birmingham Women’s and Children’s Hospital, Birmingham. John’s approach to therapy and supervision is under the influence of systemic, narrative, and social construction theories and my working class roots. His professional passions include ‘thinking theory and talking ordinary’; ‘turning practice into theory’ , ‘creating self and relationally reflexive practices’; ‘creating solidarity between young people, parents and professionals through multiple family therapy’, and using social and personal GgRRAAAACCEEEESSSS….S to enable clients and practitioners to conceptualise and influence their experiences. Shakira Nkanang is a Systemic Psychotherapist working for an Independent Fostering Agency, where she conducts therapy sessions with foster carers and social workers. She also delivers foster care and trauma-informed training, as well as systemic training to support supervising social workers. Shakira incorporates an embodied systemic approach in her work and maintains a private practice, working with culturally diverse clients. She is the facilitator of the AFT 'Race' and Diversity Working Party Group.Tracy Chapman - Tracy Chapman is an American singer-songwriter known for her soulful voice and thought-provoking lyrics. Rising to fame in the late 1980s with hits like "Fast Car" and "Give Me One Reason," her music blends folk, rock, and pop with themes of social justice, personal struggle, and hope. With a career spanning decades, Chapman has become an iconic figure in the music world for her powerful storytelling and timeless sound.
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