269. Mark Manson: On Killing Your Dream, "The Subtle Art," Anxiety & Depression

Summary

The Ultimate Human with Gary Brecka

Episode 269: Mark Manson—On Killing Your Dream, "The Subtle Art," Anxiety & Depression
Released: May 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, host Gary Brecka sits down with celebrated author Mark Manson ("The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck") for a deep dive into the modern challenges of anxiety, depression, goal-setting, relationships, and defining purpose. The discussion is rich with practical wisdom, research-backed insights, and personal anecdotes that shed light on what it means to truly thrive as a human being. Touching on everything from the perils of perfectionism and societal expectations to the core skills that sustain meaningful relationships, this conversation is essential listening for anyone looking to become their "ultimate human."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rethinking Success & The "Dad Bod" Debate

[29:36–32:28]

• The episode begins mid-conversation on a viral social media trend where women reportedly preferred "dad bods" over "chiseled" physiques, while men valued the opposite.
• Mark Manson explains:

  “I think it’s reflective of how people come to the same experience with a completely different lens... The men admire the reliability, the discipline...the women are like, but yeah, am I going to feel bad around him? Is he going to be fun?” (Mark Manson, 31:07)

• The discussion emphasizes how our assumptions about what matters—like physical extremes or discipline—aren't universally valued and highlights the importance of a flexible ego.

2. The Elusive Nature of Connection

[33:10–39:51]

• Connection and community are consistently cited as the keys to longevity and satisfaction, but remain “nebulous.”
• Manson introduces the concept of "legibility bias"—our tendency to focus on what is measurable over what is meaningful.
• He points out the difficulty of quantifying social life and satisfaction:

  “On the relationship and social connection side, it’s much more difficult because ultimately it’s subjective… Everybody’s a little bit different. A lot of it has to do also with your relationship with yourself.” (Mark Manson, 35:34)

3. Relationship Quality as a Skills Issue

[39:51–42:55]

• Manson reframes relationship quality as the outcome of practicing certain skills—namely self-awareness, communication, and responsibility.
• He breaks down toxic relationships as situations where “people… try to take responsibility for the other person,” leading to chronic dysfunction:

  “When you see a dysfunctional couple…at least one of the person is trying to take ownership and responsibility for the other person’s feelings and actions.” (Mark Manson, 41:52)

• The importance of clear communication and understanding differences in definition (what a “clean kitchen” means, what constitutes “quality time”) is repeatedly emphasized.

4. Expectations, Anxiety, and "The Crisis of Hope"

[46:06–50:51]

• Brecka shares personal anecdotes about how hidden expectations breed frustration.
• Manson elaborates on anxiety as “a fear of what might happen in the future” and positions anxiety as a crisis of hope:

  “Humans need something to look forward to… The problem is they wake up the next day [after a big achievement] and they don’t know what to hope for.” (Mark Manson, 48:23)

• The modern world overexposes us to negativity and potential danger, leaving many “not really knowing what to hope for.”

5. Self-Sabotage, Mediocrity, & Self-Efficacy

[51:43–54:16]

• Brecka and Manson explore how many people unconsciously aim low to avoid disappointment.
• Manson spotlights self-efficacy—the belief that you can achieve a goal—as the single strongest predictor of whether you actually will:

  “If you just honestly believe that you’re capable of achieving something, it increases the chances that you achieve it by like 33%.” (Mark Manson, 54:09)

6. The Entrepreneur’s and Caregiver’s Dilemma

[54:58–62:33]

• The conversation shifts to young entrepreneurs, especially women, struggling to share their ideas out of fear they’re "not yet good enough."
• Brecka illustrates this with his daughter’s journey and Manson offers Elon Musk’s advice:

  “If you need words of encouragement, you shouldn’t be starting your business.” (Elon Musk, quoted by Mark Manson, 57:31)

• The hosts discuss the parallel demands (and intertwining) of business and personal relationships, the dangers of caregiver syndrome (particularly for women), and the long-term impacts on health.

7. The Courage to Care Less & Pursue Purpose

[63:35–67:19]

• Manson says women in particular ask “How do I stop giving a f*ck what other people think?” and reframes the question:

  “What are you willing to be disliked for? Because if you can’t answer that, then yes, your default is just going to be make people like me…” (Mark Manson, 65:36)

• True purpose and fulfillment require the courage to withstand disapproval and risk embarrassment for something you believe in.

8. How to Discover (or Develop) Your Purpose

[69:17–74:19]

• The discussion moves to the perennial question of finding one's purpose.
• Manson likens it to relationships: some get lucky early, but for most, it’s a slow process of cultivation.
• He offers a practical formula:

  “Purpose is when you connect those two things: the thing that is your gift, that is special and unique to you, and…you are leveraging it in a way that makes the lives of other people better.” (Mark Manson, 71:55)

• Suggested self-inquiry: “What comes easily for you that seems very difficult for other people?”

9. Genetics, Happiness, and the 80/20 of Well-Being

[74:47–79:37]

• A candid detour about happiness—about 60% is genetic (“happiness center of gravity”), but meaning and strong social relationships matter most.
• To reliably increase happiness:
  • Cultivate self-efficacy (believe in your own competence)
  • Foster strong social connections
  • Seek meaning over fleeting happiness

10. Relationships: Letting Some Fights Go

[79:37–81:55]

• Manson references research showing that “every happy couple has unresolved fights.”
• Advice: don’t overanalyze every minor annoyance; pick your battles and laugh at the rest.
• “Being single is way better than being in a bad relationship.” (Mark Manson, 79:35)

11. What Is an Ultimate Human?

[82:24–83:07]

• When asked for his definition of the “ultimate human,” Manson says:

  “To live in alignment with your full potential, both physically, psychologically, and emotionally.” (Mark Manson, 82:34)

• Both agree: most people do not reach their full potential.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “So much of our stress originates in that rigidity of no, it has to be this way… Maybe you don’t need a six pack.” (Mark Manson, 32:07)
• “It’s useful to see relationship quality as the output of developing certain skills…self-awareness, quality of communication, and responsibility.” (Mark Manson, 40:01)
• “People would rather be right than happy.” (Mark Manson, 51:47)
• “There’s a certain psychological safety in underperformance. To do something truly great, you have to invest a lot…and you still might not succeed.” (Mark Manson, 52:42)
• “You should care what other people think… The question is, what do you care more than what other people think?” (Mark Manson, 65:18)
• “Purpose… it's more like develop a purpose or cultivate a purpose in your life.” (Mark Manson, 70:28)
• “It’s something that you cultivate over many, many years, both through that self exploration but also understanding: what do I value? What do I care about? How can I make the world a better place?” (Mark Manson, 74:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start Time | End Time | |-------------------------------------------------|-----------|-----------| | Rethinking the "Dad Bod" & Assumptions | 29:36 | 32:28 | | Defining Connection & Community’s Role | 33:10 | 39:51 | | Relationship Skills & Responsibility | 39:51 | 42:55 | | Expectations, Anxiety, and Hope | 46:06 | 50:51 | | Self-Sabotage & Self-Efficacy | 51:43 | 54:16 | | Entrepreneurship, Caregiving & Belief | 54:58 | 62:33 | | Courage, Disapproval & True Purpose | 63:35 | 67:19 | | Discovering/Developing Purpose | 69:17 | 74:19 | | Genetics of Happiness & Relationship Wisdom | 74:47 | 79:37 | | The Ultimate Human Defined | 82:24 | 83:07 |

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Resources

• Mark Manson: markmanson.net
• Podcast: Solved by Mark Manson (everywhere podcasts are found)

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Takeaways

• Flexibility, humility, and honest communication are the foundation of meaningful relationships and personal growth.
• Purpose is not something you find, but something you build at the intersection of your unique gifts and benefiting others.
• Happiness is mostly genetic, but meaning, self-efficacy, and connection are within your control.
• If you’re not willing to risk disapproval or embarrassment, you’ll struggle to find real fulfillment.
• Being “the ultimate human” means striving for full alignment—body, mind, and spirit—not settling for mediocrity.

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(Summary compiled and structured for clarity and depth. For more, visit the full episode or explore Mark Manson’s works.)

Transcript

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Explained and rationalized. It just made so much sense because you were like, you know, they looked at this figure and said, he doesn't actually look like he'd be that much fun. Yeah, he's probably going to leave the party at nine o'.

[Mark Manson]

Clock.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

He's probably getting up at six in the morning.

[Mark Manson]

Anything.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

He's not going to have birthday cake at my niece's birthday party.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

I don't know if I want to sign up for that level of like, discipline. The other dude looks like he'd be a freaking joy to hang out with.

[Mark Manson]

Blast.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah. And I'm going to spend time with him and I thought that reframing was, was really interesting and I think it shocked me a little bit because, I mean, intuitively I probably would have gravitated to the same thing. It's not to say that not taking

[Mark Manson]

care of yourself isn't a good idea, but it's funny. So it was a post. It was. And actually it was funny because I think it was a coach who posted a before and after picture of a client and he made kind of a joke of, look out, ladies, this guy's coming, or whatever. And then a bunch of women replied saying, I prefer in the before.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And then a bunch of guys replied to that saying, you're lying. That's impossible.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Exactly.

[Mark Manson]

So then they ran the poll and it turned out, yeah, like 80, 90% of the women preferred the dad bod and 80, 90% of the men preferred the chiseled Jack guy. And it's just, it's interesting because I think it's reflective of how people come to the same experience with a completely different lens. Right. The women were coming to it of like, how am I going to feel around this person? Whereas the men were coming to it as like, how reliable and disciplined is this person? Right. And it's. The men admire the reliability, the discipline, the ability to achieve an extremely difficult goal, whereas the women are like, but yeah, am I going to feel bad around him? Is he going to be fun? Is he going to, like, pay attention and, you know, be present if I want to do something with him? You know, and it's, it's again, it's just that it's an example. And of course, you know, both sides seem completely incapable of, like, accepting that there was another perspective out there, but it's another case of, you know, just reevaluating our own assumptions about things and being flexible with them. You know, like, it's understanding that. I think that that's another piece about the ego thing that it's not just that your ego needs to kind of reflect reality. You need to have a flexible ego. You need to be able, you need to be willing to change your mind on things. And I think it's so much of our stress originates in that rigidity of no, it has to be this way. That guy is a six pack. He has to be attractive because I want a six pack. It's like, well, maybe those things, maybe those things aren't true. And maybe you don't need a six pack, right?

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[Dr. Jason Fung]

a game is your choice. Now let's get back to the ultimate human podcast. I want to get back into the relationship thing, but you know, there's. When you talk about the, you know, research on, on longevity, cardiovascular disease, first of all, I completely agree with you. If you look at big meta analyses and blue zone data, real longevity data, there is a common thread that is a non negotiable in, in all of these blue zones and the big meta analyses. And that is this sense of community and connection and. But I don't think we really define that. Yeah, right. And you know, one of the longest running studies ever done in longevity, the Harvard longevity study, it said the number one predictor of life span was the quality of your relationships. Yeah. And yet you're right. We don't spend a lot of time talking about it. And I think a lot of it is because, and this is a question for you, we don't really know how to define connection.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Like what is it really? What does it really mean? Like, you know, I, I'm, I wake up every morning and I go to my son's house and there's like a group of guys that, you know, we, we work out, we go through this intense workout together and and it's my favorite part of the day. Yeah. And it's. And it kind of sucks during the workout, but yeah, I do feel that sense of community and connection. But maybe you could unpack that for us.

[Mark Manson]

I do think this is at the heart of the issue. There's a thing in psychology called the legibility bias, which is that we tend to focus on things that are easily measurable and counted and we tend to focus less on things that are kind of intangible and difficult to define.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Legibility bias. I gotta.

[Mark Manson]

So it kind of makes sense, right. Like if you, let's say you're really getting into longevity and health and you really wanna start optimizing things in your. Well, there's this whole nebulous area of relationships and community and feeling socially connected and it's like, well, what does that mean? Or I can test 500 milligrams of magnesium versus 300 and see how I feel.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah, I can look at these 58 biomarkers and I can try to move them.

[Mark Manson]

Exactly.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Which is kind of the world I live in. Right.

[Mark Manson]

And there's tons of value in that. And it's part of the value is that you get that measurement. Right. So you can see, you can experiment, you can get the outcome, you can start optimizing and all this stuff on the relationship and the social connection side, it's much more difficult because ultimately it's subjective. Right. Like maybe you feel completely connected and loved with six people really close to you. Maybe I don't feel connected and loved unless I have 10 people close to me or whatever. Some people like to have a few really strong relationships. Some people want to have many, many, many social connections and want to be able to see a lot of people at different times. So everybody's a little bit different. A lot of it has to do also with your relationship with yourself. So what you see consistently is that people who feel a lot of shame, negativity towards themselves, low self esteem, they have trouble feeling safe and secure in a social relationship or a romantic relationship. And so even though they might have a, a marriage and kids and tons of friends around them, they still feel alone. So it is difficult to measure, it's difficult to track. I mean, you can put numbers on it like the Harvard study did, but it's short of just kind of tracking things like mood, life satisfaction, psychological well being, emotional volatility. These are all self report metrics. And so you're literally just either going to people and asking them on a scale from 1 to 10, how loved and Accepted. Do you feel this week

[Dr. Jason Fung]

most people have never even considered that?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. And you can do this with yourself as well. There are a lot of mood tracking apps and things and you can actually start identifying a lot of interesting variables if you track your mood over a long period of time. But yeah, it's, I think this is why it gets overlooked in, in the, in, in the longevity and health conversation quite a bit. Just because it's like, how do you measure it?

[Dr. Jason Fung]

How do you measure it? And like, what are the, what are the ways to hack it? Yeah, right, right. I mean, we, we have ways to hack detoxification, fat loss, muscle building. You know, we got peptides for this and peptides for that and, and you know, the vast majority of. But hacking our relationships. And when I see my peers that are, you know, in, in struggling with very difficult relationships because it's the one area where we haven't really developed, you know, good hacks. Like, you know, everybody in our industry is waking up in the morning getting sunlight in their eyes. Right. The data's in on that. And so every one of us would be easy to put a hit on because within 30 minutes waking, we're all

[Mark Manson]

outside, and meanwhile, they don't talk to their wife until 12:00pm Exactly.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

And, and that's why I'm so, I was so excited to have you on today because I find what you talk about so refreshing. I feel like I accidentally figured it out with my current spouse, you know, because I'm, I'm in the place where I think people would love to be with their relationships. But if you're not there, how do you go about doing it? What are the hacks? I mean, or what are the, what are the exercises that you go through very, very specifically? Like, you know, should I sit down with my spouse and say, hey, what are your non negotiables? And here's my non negotiables. I mean, should we open that conversation like. And so to deepen the relationships that we have. Because I don't think connection comes from the time you spend around people. I think it comes from the time that you are actually connected. Yeah. With them it's quality. You know, there, there are a lot of house, houses full of husbands and wives and kids that don't really know each other. Right. They coexist. Right. It's more of like a cohabitating place. There's a dependency. But I don't know that they're really, you know, they've really woven that fabric.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. I think it's the way I would characterize it is that it's primarily a skills issue. I think it's useful to see relationship quality as the output of developing certain skills. So we've already talked about self awareness, being able to kind of question yourself, humble yourself, look at blind spots. You know, I would describe that as one fundamental skill of relationship quality, mental health. I would say another one is quality of communication, which is what you're getting at. And it's funny because it's. It's super cliche, right? It's like, oh, married couples, they've got to communicate, you know, and it's. Again, it's not just about sharing information. It's about intent and empathizing with the other person. It's understanding their values. It's understanding, you know, not just what happened at work today, but how do they feel about what happened at work today. How does that relate to, you know, the thing that they. Maybe they've been insecure about the past couple years, checking in with them about it, having that slightly uncomfortable conversation of, you know, oh, wow, that sucks that your boss said that to you. Like, how does that feel, given that you're unsure in this new role or whatever, you know, so it's like seeing the conversation underneath the conversation, empathizing with the emotion, addressing it directly, and then being comfortable, you know, kind of playing in that more vulnerable space. That's absolutely another skill. Ironically, I would say the responsibility piece comes back into play here, because what you see in a lot of unhealthy relationships, I would actually characterize, quote, unquote, a toxic relationship, as two people who chronically don't take responsibility for themselves and. Or try to take responsibility for the other person.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Hmm.

[Mark Manson]

So we come full circle a little bit here and that.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Try to fix them.

[Mark Manson]

Exactly. When you see a dysfunctional couple, almost all in every single case, at least one of the person is trying to take ownership and responsibility for the other person's feelings and actions. They're saying, oh, no, no, no, let me tell you how to fix this in your life. Oh, no, you're angry. It's your fault that I'm angry. You shouldn't have said that. Right. It's like these things are all. It's a relinquishing of responsibility over my own actions and emotions and understanding that my wife's actions and emotions are her responsibility, and so we can come together and communicate with them. Right. It's like, I can come to my wife and say, hey, when you said that, like, I got pretty upset. Let's talk about, you know, why that happened. You know, I'd appreciate if you didn't do that again. Versus, like, I'd appreciate it if you

[Dr. Jason Fung]

didn't do that again.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, yeah. Versus, like, you made me angry. You're such a bitch. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. It's like, what's happening sub communicated in that latter accusation. Is that it? My anger or my anger is your responsibility, so don't do that again.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Wow. And how much of this is us setting the wrong expectation and being let down because we framed an unexpected outcome, and when it doesn't happen, we're let down, you know, because, you know, in. In the infrequent times where, you know, Sage and I have disagreement, it's usually because, at least from my perspective, that I've. I've set an expectation for how she should behave.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

That is not anywhere in line. There's no basis for me to do that. Yeah. Like. Like we have, you know, I have invited a bunch of guests over to the house that I didn't tell her were coming. And they're there.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

And she's in her pajamas, working on the computer, and I expect her to get dressed and come out and be happy and be engaging and come out and meet these people. And she's like, no, I'm actually doing work in here. I didn't know they were coming over. You didn't tell me. And then I'm upset with her, you know?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

And then when I reframe it, I'm like, you know what? I don't know why I set that expectation on her.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

I'd be actually pretty upset if she set that expectation on me. Yeah. You know, at least give me the courtesy if you're to, you know, if you. If you want me to be socially engaging with a bunch of new strangers, at least give me a heads up that they're. That they're coming to. Springing on me.

[Mark Manson]

It's the classic relationship scenario. I often call that the mind reading scenario. You know, it's like, my wife will get mad at me for not doing something. And I'm like, I didn't know you wanted me to do that. I can't read your mind. And then she's like, it should be obvious. And I'm like, well, it's not. That happens quite a bit. So communicating expectations, checking in on things. The other thing that happens a lot in relationships, especially early on, is that people have the different definition for things.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

So very simple and common example. My wife and I, we have a very different definition of what A clean kitchen looks like,

[Dr. Jason Fung]

oh, dude, you're hitting all the high points. So does my wife.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

I'm like, if there are no tennis shoes on the counter, we're doing well.

[Mark Manson]

We're doing pretty good. Yeah, we're doing pretty good. You know, we have different definition of, you know, what quality time looks like. We have a different definition of what a fight looks like. You know, so it's. People come from different families, they come from different cultures, they come from different backgrounds. They have different personalities. And so you have different definitions of all these things. And what's funny is that I think a lot of couples, early on, they get into trouble because they try to change their partner's definition. They're like, no, no, no, no. This is what clean is, or this is what quality time is. Right. Instead of just understanding each other's definition. Like, my definition of a clean kitchen has not really changed. And I've been with my wife for 14 years.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

But I sure as hell know what her definition of a clean kitchen is.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And so when she's coming home from a trip, I'm like, we got to get it.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

We're going to meet her definition.

[Mark Manson]

We got to get it. Fernanda clean, Not Mark clean.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah. I love that. You know, and I think, you know, this. This expectation leads to a lot of apprehension. You know, you've called anxiety a crisis of hope. You know, I. I sat with that definition for a little while because it makes a lot of sense.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

To me that, you know, hope is your at least belief that something's going to turn out a certain way and when it doesn't, or that you hope certain person isn't at a dinner party when you arrive, or you hope that you get to head home early, or you hope that the food is good at a restaurant. And. And again, I wonder if you would, like, give us some context around that, too, because when I do stage talks and podcasts and lectures and. And. And I'll just generally ask the audience, you know, how many of you suffer from anxiety? And 70% of the audience will raise their hand like, wow, there can't be a condition, you know, a pathology that exists at that scale. Yeah. Right. So it must be something endemic in society that's causing people to feel.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Anxiety. And. Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

So I. I have a pet theory around this, which is. Ties into that hope thing. So anxiety, it's. I think it's the only emotion that's very future focused. So fear is, there's a lion in front of me. It might kill me. It's present. It's like this thing is happening.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah. On the edge of a 30th floor balcony. And I'm afraid heights. I mean, that's.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. Whereas anxiety is a fear of what might happen in the future. It's like, okay, well, if I walk through the savannah, I might come across a lion. What am I gonna do if that happens? So it's kind of this mental preparation for the future. Worst case scenario, that that starts happening. And I think there are a couple things that have kind of scrambled our brains around this one is that we are so over exposed to all of the possible problems in the world that could happen in the next week, year, five years. We are constant. You go online for two seconds, you're getting hit with messages of like, you know, World War 3 is gonna start, there's gonna be another pandemic, there's gonna be global warming. Like, there's just all of these narratives that are constantly taking place that things are getting awful, things are gonna, you know, the world's gonna end on all this stuff. And so that's one piece of it. But I think the subtler piece of it, which is the crisis of hope piece, is that to really be psychologically well adjusted and happy and stable, humans need something to look forward to. Like, you need something in your life that you wake up and you're like, I'm excited for that. I can't wait for that to happen. Or I can't wait to pursue that. And this is. I think this comes back to where we started. After subtle art, people who. The altitude sickness piece, people who achieve a big dream. The problem is they wake up the next day and they don't know what to hope for. They're like, well, I just did all the good things I could have imagined, so I don't know what to hope for anymore. And so anxiety sets in, depression sets in. I think we live in a world where we're so over aware of all of the problems of everything. Like, there's just anything. Name anything interesting or exciting or, you know, whether it's a job or a relationship or moving to a certain place or a political movement or whatever. Like we are. So everything is criticized so often, and we see the downside of everything so clearly that I think it's. We've become a society of people that don't really know what to hope for. Like, I don't know what's good anymore. I don't know what a better life even looks like, much less how to get there.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

So it's I ultimately see it as. There's kind of a lack of clarity of, like, what matters and what is good and what's worth pursuing. And when you remove that from people's psyches, anxiety starts setting in. Right. Cause it's like, well, I can't think of anything good in the future, but I can think of a lot of bad things in the future. Yeah, a lot. And then the brain's a predictive machine, so that's where it goes.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

And all it has to predict is what's happened in the past. I mean, it all. It has its experience. Experience. And then it just supplants that experience in, In. In the future, you know. You know. Well, you know, my. My relationships never work out, you know, so I'd be shocked if this one did, you know, And I've even heard sports psychiatrists and sports psychologists talk about how they'll work with professional athletes and a golf war will walk up to something they need to one putt, and he'll just. He'll say out loud, probably going to two putt this. Yeah. You know, in some ways, allowing themselves to fail by. But meeting their expectation of failure, which in a weird way makes them less anxious because, see, I told you I was going to two. But it.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

And. And then when they fail, they've met the expectation of failure.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. There's this classic saying in psychology, which is that people would rather be right than happy. That.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah, that's exactly.

[Mark Manson]

And it's. That's a perfect example of that.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

So do you think that we frame things like that as either as a defense mechanism or without even being aware that we're doing that, and therefore we're sort of subtly setting ourselves up to achieve mediocrity, to strive for mediocrity and just stay in that comfortable soup of, you know, not taking too much risk. Yeah. And staying. So our life is never great.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

It's just kind of okay.

[Mark Manson]

It's. In a weird way, it is the comfortable.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Like the word they see good is the enemy of great. Kind of. You know, it's. It's. If it's good, I don't want to do anything about it. You know, it's.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, there's a certain. It really. It's kind of sick. But like there's a certain psychological safety in underperformance. Right. Like, it's. To do something truly great, you have to invest a lot of energy, emotion, effort, strain.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

And you still might not succeed. So, like, that's a lot to give up for an uncertain outcome. Whereas if you kind of set the bar low, you're like, well, I'm pretty sure I can hit that and I don't have to invest as much. And yeah, it would be disappointing, but I'd rather be disappointed than give something my all and then come up short. Right. So like a lot of people, unconsciously, they kind of make that negotiation in their head and it's very tricky. I think we sabotage a lot in that way without even realizing it. It's crazy. If you look at, if you look at the research around goal achievement in psychology, the number one factor of whether somebody achieves a really difficult goal is something called self efficacy, which is literally just the belief that you're capable of achieving the goal. Yeah, it's something like if you just honestly believe that you're capable of achieving something, it increases the chances that you achieve it by like 33% or something like that. It's. Yeah, it's so stupidly simple, but it has just a massive outsized effect.

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[Dr. Jason Fung]

Now let's get back to the ultimate human podcast. I meet and deal with a lot of on, you know, young entrepreneurs and I love the entrepreneurial spirit. And you know, there's sort of careless over exuberation. Right. Without any assemblance of a plan or this is going to be a billion dollar company. I'm like, yeah, okay, let's, let's talk about how it gets to 100,000.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, right, your first sale.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah, yeah, let's talk about the first sale. And you know, and they're like, well, Coke or Pepsi or, you know, Monster Energy has done it. But, you know, and, and this tastes better. So it's going to be a billion dollars. I'm like, there's a lot of distance between cup and lip there. But by the same token, there, I feel like There's a lot of these young entrepreneurs that because everything is not mapped out and because everything is not perfect, they actually really don't believe much in their idea. You know, I went through this with, going through this with my daughter, and she's launching a chemical free skin care line which she's deeply passionate about. She's a nurse, background in health services administration, just always been healthy, always been very, very cautious about what she's put on her skin. And when she got her medical degree, she really started going down the rabbit hole of all these things that damage your skin. Phthalates, parabens, polyfluoro alcohols. And she just went head first into starting the skincare line. It's been amazing to watch her as a young entrepreneur unpack this. But what I noticed that she does a lot of times is, you know, when I ask her if she shared this idea with some of the people that she holds in the highest regard in her life, she hasn't, because she's afraid that the idea is not yet good enough. So I can see that her belief. And hopefully this podcast comes out after

[Mark Manson]

she launches this sort of throwing Madison under the bus.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

But it, but, but we talk about it a lot, but it's, you know, is her belief in it as strong as it needs to be for someone to like, lead a brand and lead a leader company that you're passionate, passionately want to start?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. You almost have to become like an evangelist for something.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Can I say, look, it can't be what you do. It's got to be who you are. Right.

[Mark Manson]

My favorite line around this was a long time ago, like 15 years ago, Elon Musk was giving a talk at a conference or something and somebody in the audience asked him, they said, what words of encouragement would you give to struggling entrepreneurs? And Elon said, none. Because if you need words of encouragement, you shouldn't be starting your business. Wow. Yeah. And it's.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

That's really powerful.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, but it's so true. It's. You need to believe in something so deeply because it's. Look, even if it is a great idea and even if people are excited about it, the, the process of building a business of like, the amount of embarrassing launches and ad campaigns and mistakes, you probably.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Failure. Fear of failure.

[Mark Manson]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, you fall on your face so many times and very publicly. And so, yeah, the underlying belief in the business needs to be so strong that all of that feels worth it.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah. You know, when we started the ultimate human platform, we started this media platform with the sole Intention to give without the expectation of receipt. And the reason why I did that was because I wanted to remove all of those initial expectations that would create this systemic and repeated failures. Like, oh, we didn't get enough affiliate links or we didn't put things behind a paywall or grow the Instagram account as fast as we thought. Just took all that pressure off and said, we just need to create the most intentional, authentic information and give it for, for free. And if we've accomplished that, we've succeeded.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

So that's how I'll define the success of the business. And what it allowed us to do is like, put all of the effort into the message. And you know, since then we've monetized it for sure. But put all of the intention into the messaging and not into all of those things that create all of those landmines for, for failure. Yeah. And, and, and when we got to tens of millions and then hundreds of millions of views and I saw the adoption rate and likes and shares and forwards and comments, I realized that we, we'd done it right. Yeah. And I was trying to set up the media platform to not fail. Yeah. By removing a lot of those expectations. But so for entrepreneurs, because having a relationship with your business is like having a relationship with your spouse.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

And, and I think a lot of people need to prepare for that. You know, I started a company with my spouse when we were dating. Then we got engaged and we got married. And if anybody tells you that you can start a company with your significant other and separate business from pleasure, that is the biggest lie probably ever told.

[Mark Manson]

Kudos to you. I'm sitting here in awe right now. I'm like, that's a lot of stress.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Oh, dude. And we had a mixed family. You know, I had three kids. Wow. Divorced. She had one young daughter. Divorced. We moved the families in together.

[Mark Manson]

Oh, man.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Then, you know, we started a business together and initially it did not go very well. Yeah. So we were making like, you know, 15 year married couple with the same family decisions like three years into our relationship. Wow. And I've. My view on relationships is that the best relationships are the ones that have gone through everything that is meant to tear them apart and somehow they haven't given up on each other. Yeah. But that's my sort of rudimentary definition of a good relationship because I experienced that. Because, you know, when, when you go through all those things that are meant to, to tear you apart and you somehow figure it out, then when some measure of success comes, it is such a panacea you know, especially if you've achieved it together. Yeah. But any case, I, I, I'm. What are some things that young entrepreneurs and young folks in relationships, especially women, because, you know, I always quote the statistic that 82% of all autoimmune disease is found in females. Not because autoimmune disease is selective by sex, it's selected by weakness. And what a lot of the research intimates is that women have a tendency to put the needs of other people before the needs of themselves. They call it caregiver syndrome. And by slowly but consistently putting themselves in the backseat, their spouse, their kids, their career, their girlfriends, their co workers, what have you. They haven't taken any time for like, that introspection for self care, for like, what actually makes me happy.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Like, and they wake up one day, they don't like what they see in the mirror, and then they also feel terrible very often because that kind of stress weakens the immune system. Now they end up with Hashimoto's or, or some other kind of autoimmune condition. So what would you say to those women and what would you say to, you know, young, you know, young folks in a relationship or starting a business? What are like the exercises that build the mental resiliency, that help you create community and connection, that help you sort of honestly look at yourself to see some of these blind spots, like you say, because if I was to give any advice, and I don't give any kind of relationship or advice on success, but the exercise that I inadvertently went through in my 40s, if I had done that in my 20s, I can't imagine how much different. Right. You know, my life would have been.

[Mark Manson]

Right. I think the thing that comes to mind is just. And I ask. So as you can imagine, one of the most common questions I get from people is how do I stop giving a fuck? How do I stop giving a fuck? Especially how do I stop giving a fuck what other people think? And I noticed that's a big one. This is much more prevalent in women than it is in men. And I think this is something that maybe has gotten missed or hasn't gotten broadcast. As women have ascended and achieved more educational and professional success. There's an aspect of it that I guess was never shared with them, which is that there's a piece of kind of reaching those higher rungs is being willing to embarrass yourself, being willing to be hated, being willing to fall on your face in front of thousands of people and be judged by them and be criticized by them. And it's not, you know, it's historically, all the great men of history who achieved all these extremely. The stratosphere of achievement. It was not pleasant getting there. Right.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

They say nobody enjoys the climb, everybody enjoys the view.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. It was not a picnic. And so I often hear from very talented, driven, ambitious women, and it's a very common question of, like, how do I stop giving a fuck what other people think? And I always throw a question back at them, which is, and this relates to your daughter, first of all, you're never gonna stop giving a fuck what other people think. You're a human. It's good that you give a fuck about what other people think. Otherwise you'd be a sociopath.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah. So let's, like, exactly.

[Mark Manson]

Let's. It's. First of all, let's acknowledge that, yes, you should care what other people think. The question is, what do you care more than what other people think? And what I. What the question I throw back to them is, I say, what are you willing to be? What are you believe in so strongly that you're willing to be disliked for it?

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Wow.

[Mark Manson]

Because if you can't answer that, then, yes, your default is just going to be make people like me do whatever is gonna get other people to like me. Wow. And some like to really level up. And just for entrepreneurs in general, right, it's like, to get through that pain, period, you have to be working on something that you believe in so strongly that it's like, yes, your family's gonna laugh at you. Your college friends are gonna stop returning your calls. Cause they're like, what is this guy doing? Bukowski has this amazing sequence in one of his poems about this. You know, he's like, you have to. You know, you'll be laughed at, you'll be derided, you'll be insulted, you'll be isolated. He said, isolation is the gift. Isolation is. It's the opportunity for you to hone your craft, you know, and it's a package deal. And I think it's sitting with that question of, like, what are you willing to be disliked for? What do you believe in so strongly that you're willing to embarrass yourself for it and feel like it's still worth it? It's not easy to find that thing. But I think when you do find that thing that becomes kind of that North Star, it can be that thing that you do wake up and hope for every day. Right. It alleviates the anxiety, it gives you direction, and it gives you something. They keep climbing towards yeah, you know,

[Dr. Jason Fung]

I, I often when we talk about community and connection, people also talk about their purpose. And I get asked a lot on, on, on podcasts, even though I'm not a profess to be any form of relationship expert by any stretch. How do I find my purpose? Like, how do I define my purpose? You know, because it is so true that when you don't have that North Star, it's very detrimental to your health. And we've now unpacked this in a way that we can link negative emotional states and elevated catecholamines to heightened cortisol, from heightened cortisol to adrenal fatigue to impact on the immune system. So the biohackers, we can draw this biophysiological line. We can give you all of the, the rationale behind the cellular biology of how stress makes you sick. What we haven't figured out is how do we help people identify who they are and how do they figure out what their passion is? Some people are blessed. They were really good at soccer, they were a talented athlete, and they found that sport. They went to an Olympian level or they played professional sports. That was their calling. And then they were able to, you know, manage their way out of, you know, becoming a professional athlete into, into a, you know, society. And, and they did just fine. But, but for those people that are sitting around, they're, they're an entrepreneur or they're, maybe they're a nine to fiver. The one thing they do know is that they're unhappy with their status quo.

[Mark Manson]

Right.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

The one thing they haven't been able to crystallize is that why am I here and what is my purpose? Do you have any ways to help people frame that?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, it's a difficult question. And it's funny because I often, I kind of hate how this question's often.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

And I don't want to make it so keychi, because I think people stumble upon it sometimes because it's, it's the most painful thing in their life. Maybe they suffer from drug or alcohol addiction, they fixed it. Now their purpose is to help other people.

[Mark Manson]

First of all, yeah, I feel like purpose is, it's similar to spouses. Right. Some people meet their spouse when they're 15 and they're just together for their entire life. It's rare, but it happens. And I think the same thing is true with purpose. There are some people that when they're 12 years old, they're like, I'm gonna be a doctor. And then they're a doctor for their entire life. And they love it. And it's like, good for you. You won.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

I ha.

[Mark Manson]

You.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yes, little nerd.

[Mark Manson]

You won the existential lottery. Okay? But most of us. Most of us like finding our, you know, our lifelong partner. There is a very long process of trial and error in learning from the mistakes, learning from looking in the wrong places.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

So I.

[Mark Manson]

To begin with, I always like. I don't even like the verb find, even though that's what everybody uses. It's more like. It's more like develop a purpose or cultivate a purpose in your life. So what's interesting, when you look at the research around this, if you ask yourself, what is a sense of purpose? What gives your life a sense of meaning? It's interesting. It's kind of at the intersection of two things. So the first thing is, what is unique about you? What seems particularly unique or privileged or special about you or your situation or your context in life? And that could be anything from, you have an extremely unique talent or skill that most other people don't have. It could be that you grew up, you had a very unique experience or came from a very unique background that most other people don't have. It could be that you have very unique relationships or connections in the world that most other people don't have. But it should be something that is very rare or unique that you have access to or that you inhabit. So that's piece number one. Piece number two is how do you make the world a better place? And then purpose is when you connect those two things. So you're taking the thing that is your gift, that is special and unique to you, and then you are leveraging it in a way that makes the lives of other people better.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

When you combine those two things, that's when you start experiencing a sense of purpose. And those two things are hard because the first one is that a lot of people look at their lives and they're like, well, there's nothing special about me. I'm just a guy, right? I just hang out and play golf and whatever, watch the movie. You really have to sometimes dig deep and really kind of explore your interests, explore your passions, your hobbies, your talents, and get a little bit of experience in the world to really start understanding, okay, what do I have a knack for? What is kind of unique about me? What do I do a little bit differently than most people? One question I often ask people to look at is, what comes easily for you? That seems very difficult for other people. And it doesn't even have to be professionally related. It could Be something that's like, I'm really great at meeting people at parties and I'm always the one introducing my friends to people and, and I'm always connecting people. That can be your superpower. The second side is also difficult because this comes back to the hope thing of like what is worth pursuing, what makes the world a better place, what's something worth hoping for? And that really comes down to understanding your values, understanding ultimately what you care about and what is particularly important to you. And so then you kind of get a marriage of those two things, but it takes time to find them. And just from what you've shared, from your personal story, it sounds like you kind of went through a whole process. You did the nine to five thing and then kind of came into this industry later in life and then probably found a merging of your talents and skills with all of this science and all this amazing information that you can share with people. And it's like you didn't just wake up and do that. No, like that sounds like it was a multi decade process that you had to work towards. So it's. People often talk about purpose as if it's something that you find under a rock. And you know, it's like, oh, there's

[Dr. Jason Fung]

my purpose, I'm looking in for it.

[Mark Manson]

I left in the bathroom, finally found it. But no, it's something that you cultivate over many, many years, both through that self exploration but also understanding like what do I value? What do I care about? How can I make the world a better place?

[Dr. Jason Fung]

You know, back to how you frame this muscle of radical self honesty. Do you think that people that are generally happier, more satisfied, more content in their life have the, are there characteristics that they share? You know, like one, one of the. I don't read a lot of business or self help motivational books but I read Think and Grow Rich.

[Mark Manson]

Right.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

And I think the original version of that book was Pray and Grow Rich. But, but, but Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. And, and when I found out, found unique about that book and I think it was written in the like the 1920s. Yeah. Or 30s. 30s was that he wasn't actually looking at the actions like what did this person invest in to become rich? He looked at the characteristics of success, the mindsets, the mindset, the you know, the like minded people quick to decision making, you know, not afraid to make a decision. And, and he, he wrote a book about. These are the characteristics of successful people and they were across different areas of success and not all of it was socioeconomic. Some of it was religion, sports, you know, entertainment, what have you and. And identify those characteristics. Have you on your journey been able to sort of embody the, the characteristics of people that are really content and just truly happy, like lives that other people would want to emulate?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, it's funny. It's funny because like, happiness, first of all, when you ask what's the primary trait that drives happiness? The thing that no self help book will tell you is that it's genetics. It's like 60% of baseline happiness is genetically driven and personality driven. So think of it as like everybody kind of has a happiness center of gravity.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

So like you can have peak experience. Let's say most people's is around a 7. From on a 1 to 10 scale. So let's say you're at a 7 and then it's like you have a great, you know, you have a birthday party or a great vacation or whatever. So it goes to 10 for a few days. It's eventually going to come back and settle at a seven. Similarly, like, something bad happens in your life, maybe a friend passes away or, you know, a business goes under or something, it drops to a three or four. But then over the course of weeks and months, it comes back to a seven. So researchers call this baseline happiness. And what they find is that about two thirds of your baseline happiness is just kind of genetically set.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Wow.

[Mark Manson]

That doesn't mean that you can't manipulate it. There are things you can do to increase it. But it's funny because it's just.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

That's wild.

[Mark Manson]

Some people are just more predisposed to be cheerier and in a better mood than others. I personally come from a school of thought. Like, I actually have a chapter in one of my books called. The title is Happiness is Overrated because it's. Don't get me wrong, happiness is great, but it's like it's. Ultimately, I argue that you want to live a meaningful life. You want to have a impactful life. Happiness is great, but it comes and goes. It's like any other emotion. You can feel happy today, but tomorrow you might feel like shit. And then the next day something else happens and it's, you know, it's. It's just this. It's this rollercoaster ride. But meaning and impact is permanent. Like, that's what sticks around forever. Yeah, but in terms of like, what can actually raise baseline happiness reliably? There's. So there are a few mindsets and attitudes that can have an effect. Self efficacy is one of them, which we Talked about, you know, just a belief that generally I'm a capable person, I can do the things that I want to do, and also that a belief that I can handle whatever setbacks or obstacles come my way. And then the other one we talked about, which is strong social connections, again, it's like the number one driving factor of happiness in happiness research is quality of relationships. And again, it's, it's something. It's not a. It's like the relationship thing I feel like in my industry is probably like in your industry, it's like, oh, yeah, you should just eat less and exercise more.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Right, right, right.

[Mark Manson]

Everybody, everybody knows. And like everybody's sick of hearing it. But it's also just. That's the 80, 20, you know.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Really? Yeah, it's just deepening your just have

[Mark Manson]

good relationship, you know, get out, meet people, have a few good friends. On the romantic relationship, it's interesting. So no romantic relationship is better than a bad romantic relationship. But a good romantic relationship is significantly better than no romantic relationship.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

No romantic relationship is better than a bad one. Yeah. Oh, Meaning. Okay.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. So it's.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Being single is way better than being in a bad relationship.

[Mark Manson]

Exactly, Exactly.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Absolutely agree with that. Yeah. And I think so many people get into relationships to fix somebody else. And I see it all the time with our friends, even with our families. I mean, you know, with, with calling out any of my family. But there are members of my family that have been married for very, very, very long periods of time. And the conversation is always centered around fixing the other. Why don't you eat this? Why don't you? Like he hasn't eaten that for 40 years.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, he's not gonna start today.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

He's not gonna start today. You know, like that banging your head against the wall. But then they're also, you know, going on 60 years, so. But they come from a generation of, you know, if something was broke, you fixed it, you didn't throw it away. Right. Which is like my parents generation there because they're coming up on 60 years. Wow.

[Mark Manson]

There's something to that.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

More than a half a century.

[Mark Manson]

There's something to that you can problem solve.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

That's for sure.

[Mark Manson]

Because it's, it's. And also a lot of problems. Right. Relationship. A lot of fights are not significant.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Like, they're not so not significant.

[Mark Manson]

It's just, you're just arguing about how to load the dishwasher. Like, who cares? You know, and it's, you know, there's no reason to like start excavating all of this. You Know, like, deeper emotions and like, oh, that's my childhood, because my mom never let me load the day. It's like, you can overdo this stuff to quite a degree. And I do think there's a lot of wisdom. And it's actually like, so John Gottman from the University of Washington is, like, the leading relationship researcher in the world. He says this. He says every happy couple has unresolved fights and recurring fights. He says, completely normal. It's usually about stupid stuff that doesn't matter. It's like, oh, he watches too much football on weekends, and, like, they've been fighting about it for 25 years, you know? And he said it's completely normal. And he's like, it's only a problem if you let it be a problem.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah. So just maybe just relax. Yeah, yeah. Let it go. For my audience that would like to find out more about you, Obviously, we've got the book here. I'm going to link it into the Show Notes. Where can they find you?

[Mark Manson]

You can go to markmanson.net, i've got a free newsletter. I've also got a podcast called Solved, which is available everywhere. Yeah, I'm on every platform. I'm like you.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

I'm everywhere. So they'll find you. I'll link it in the Show Notes. So I wind down all of my podcasts by asking my guests the same question, and there's no right or wrong answer to this question, but what does it mean to you to be an ultimate human? I'll give you a T shirt if you get.

[Mark Manson]

If I get the right answer. Oh, man. The pressure is on. The pressure is on.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Cotton Fits Night.

[Mark Manson]

I would say being the ultimate human is to live in alignment with your full potential, both physically, psychologically, and emotionally.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Wow. Full potential. I love it. You think most people reach their full potential?

[Mark Manson]

No.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

Yeah, neither do I. Yep. That was powerful. Great answer. You got the T shirt.

[Mark Manson]

You got the T shirt.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

I'm not even throwing a trucker hat, too.

[Mark Manson]

Hell, yeah.

[Dr. Jason Fung]

I'm feeling generous today. Hang out, guys. We're heading over into the VIP room. So there was VIPs waiting in there. They have a ton of questions. But thank you for coming on the Ultimate Human Podcast. And until next time, that's just science.