276. Dr. John Kim: On Mold Toxicity, Mycotoxins, Heavy Metals, & Cellular Detox

Summary

The Ultimate Human with Gary Brecka

Episode 276: Dr. John Kim — On Mold Toxicity, Mycotoxins, Heavy Metals & Cellular Detox
Release Date: June 9, 2026
Guest: Dr. John Kim (PharmD, Functional Medicine Specialist)
Main Theme: Deep dive into mold toxicity, mycotoxins, heavy metal accumulation, impacts at the cellular level, effective testing and detoxification protocols, and the overlooked importance of cellular resilience.

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Episode Overview

In this rich, science-driven episode, Gary Brecka welcomes Dr. John Kim to unpack the insidious and often misunderstood world of mold toxicity, mycotoxins, and heavy metals—hidden threats rarely detected by conventional medicine, yet responsible for a spectrum of chronic health conditions. Together, they discuss the biological mechanisms, personal stories, advanced testing, and practical frameworks (including Dr. Kim’s “ENCORE Method”) for truly addressing and healing these burdens at the cellular level.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mold Toxicity & Mitochondrial Dysfunction

Timestamps: 00:00–04:00

• Dr. Kim: Mold isn't just an allergen—it deeply disrupts mitochondrial function and cell membrane integrity, with effects reaching the DNA.
  • "Mold is not just about immune dysfunction or having allergies. It actually causes mitochondrial dysfunction deep into the cellular level, down to the DNA." (Dr. John Kim, 00:00)
• Gary: Cells operate in communities—unhealthy cellular environments can "infect" healthy cells.
  • "Metabolically healthy cells can become metabolically sick because they're in an environment with other metabolically sick cells." (Gary Brecka, 00:08)

2. Dr. Kim’s "Pain to Glory" Story: The Heart Attack at 33

Timestamps: 04:24–10:41

• Dr. Kim shares his harrowing experience of a near-fatal heart attack with “perfect" labs at age 33. Underlying causes included gut issues, mold exposure, and multiple infections.
  • "I ignored chronic heartburn and anxiety, then had an 85% blockage in my 'widowmaker.'" (Dr. John Kim, 06:23)
• Discovery of multiple hidden infections (Aspergillus, Bartonella, Epstein-Barr, mercury, parasites).
• His healing journey involved functional medicine, advanced testing, and profound lifestyle overhaul.

3. Understanding and Approaching Mold, Mycotoxins, and Biofilms

Timestamps: 12:04–19:13

• Lipid membrane medicine and phospholipid therapy were foundational for Dr. Kim’s recovery.
• Biofilm Explained: Microbial 'slime' that traps mold, metals, bacteria, making them resistant to treatment.
  • "Biofilm is like the slimy film on a rock in a lake—it's how microbials protect themselves from the environment and our immune system." (Dr. John Kim, 14:51)
• Breaking down biofilms (with phospholipids, enzymes like nattokinase).
• Biofilms, mold, and heavy metals often coexist and must be addressed together.

4. Testing and Diagnostics — Moving Beyond Standard Panels

Timestamps: 19:14–25:07

• Most conventional panels miss these issues; functional interpretation and targeted testing matter.
  • RealTime Labs urine mycotoxin test
  • Organic acids test (for mitochondrial function, neurotransmitter status)
  • Comprehensive stool tests (Vibrant Wellness Gut Zoomer 5.0)
• Biofilm isn’t measurable via standard labwork; history and symptoms guide practitioners.
• SIBO/SIFO treated carefully—overuse of antibiotics/probiotics can worsen biofilms or fungal overgrowth.

5. Detox Cautions and "Provoked" Testing

Timestamps: 25:08–28:33

• Rapid fat loss or aggressive infection-clearing protocols can release hidden toxins, overwhelming detox pathways.
• For obese patients with low mycotoxin readings, provoked urine testing (using minerals and bioflavonoids) is needed to properly detect their toxic burden.

6. Cellular & Epigenetic Impact of Toxins

Timestamps: 28:34–34:52

• Mycotoxins create DNA adducts, change epigenetic expression, and can trigger autoimmunity (notably in women).
  • "Mold causes epigenetic changes—that's why, for example, you see so much lupus, Hashimoto's, and other autoimmunity." (Dr. John Kim, 28:35)
• Interventions like phospholipids (IV PC) help restore cell membrane health, but must be administered carefully.

7. The Cell Danger Response & Lasting Impact of Toxins

Timestamps: 31:29–36:41

• Dr. Robert Naviaux’s concept: The “cell danger response” is an ancient survival mechanism where mitochondria shut down energy production in response to threat—sometimes permanently, leading to chronic illness.
  • "It's like a fire alarm that never shuts off; even after escaping the moldy environment, people stay sick unless the cell danger response is resolved." (Dr. John Kim, 34:08)

8. The ENCORE Method: A Holistic Framework for Cellular Detox

Timestamps: 38:08–66:29

• E — Environment: First, address and remediate the source (e.g. mold in the home). Use dust/surface tests, not air sampling alone (WeInspect, ERMI, Dust Test).
  • Also, minimize non-native EMF and blue light exposure—these exacerbate cellular stress and impair detox.
• N — Nervous System: Regulate the nervous system out of chronic "fight or flight" (sympathetic) mode using tools like HeartMath heart-coherency breathing.
  • "Once you create coherency in the heart, symptoms disappear. One patient’s resting heart rate dropped from 90 to 60." (Dr. John Kim, 51:18)
• C — Cellular Health: Restore circadian rhythm (AM sunlight, grounding), replenish cell membrane integrity (phosphatidylcholine, SPMs, butyrate), and manage deuterium (using deuterium-depleted water, seasonal eating).
• O — Optimize Detox: Enable proper bile flow (mold reduces bile production and transport), support gut function for elimination, use binders carefully, and sequence antifungal/antimicrobial interventions.
• R — Rebuild Microbiome: Only after detoxing the terrain, reintroduce the right probiotics (often spore-based), immunoglobulins, and dietary protocols attuned to the patient’s environment and season.
  • "Clean the fish tank first, then support the fish." (Gary Brecka, 36:42)
• Enhancement of cellular resiliency is the final goal, building a robust "electric potential" in the cell membrane to repel future toxic threats.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On missed diagnoses:

  • "They're basically tired of the mold cult... But now, people's journeys show these are very real toxic loads with real consequences." (Gary Brecka, 02:16)

• On practical detox:

  • "If you are stuck in the same environment that made you sick, you're not going to get better. No chance." (Gary Brecka, 39:05)

• On EMF and Blue Light:

  • "Non-native EMF and blue light ligate the cell membrane, drive calcium in, dump magnesium—the worst thing for people with MCAS or mold issues." (Dr. John Kim, 43:27)

• On trauma and nervous system healing:

  • "I want to empower you to be the best doctor for your own. Enhancing cellular resiliency, that's it." (Dr. John Kim, 69:55)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–04:00: Mold’s deep cellular/mitochondrial effects
• 05:05–10:41: Dr. Kim’s story of unexpected heart attack and diagnostic odyssey
• 14:51: Biofilms explained (“slimy film on a rock”)
• 19:14–25:00: Advanced mycotoxin/gut/mold testing (RealTime Labs, organic acids, Gut Zoomer)
• 25:08–28:33: Dangers of too-rapid detox; provoked testing
• 31:29–34:08: Cell danger response overview
• 38:08–66:29: The ENCORE method, step-by-step framework
• 48:30–51:18: HeartMath heart-coherence breathing and dramatic case improvement
• 55:09–59:38: Circadian rhythm, deuterium, seasonal eating for mitochondrial health
• 63:07: DAMPs, SPMs, and resolving chronic inflammation at the mitochondrial level
• 65:08–66:29: Rebalancing the microbiome—sequence matters
• 69:55–70:13: Dr. Kim’s philosophy: cellular resiliency is the essence of being “an ultimate human”

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Actionable Takeaways

• True healing from biotoxin illness demands a whole-system, phased approach—starting with the environment and nervous system (calming inflammation), then rebuilding cellular resilience, not just focusing on “killing bugs” or restoring gut flora.
• EMF/blue light mitigation and circadian rhythm restoration are now non-negotiable factors in chronic illness.
• Tools like functional urine mycotoxin testing, organic acid profiles, and advanced stool analysis are peerless for uncovering what’s missed in standard labs.
• HeartMath breathing and nervous system practices are as crucial as supplements or medical interventions, especially for trauma survivors.
• Success is measured not just in symptom relief, but by restoring your body’s own resilience—the ability to repel future toxic challenges.

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Final Message

“To be an ultimate human is to have cellular resiliency. To live your full life to your potential that God has given you.”
— Dr. John Kim (70:36)

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Transcript

[Dr. John Kim]

Mold is not just about the immune dysfunction or having allergies. It actually causes mitochondrial dysfunction deep into the cellular level, down to the DNA.

[Gary Brecke]

Cells are like human beings. They behave in communities. This is the way that cellular activity influences other cells and how metabolically healthy cells can become metabolically sick because they're in an environment with other metabolically sick cells.

[Dr. John Kim]

So it's vital for the cell membrane to function well. Unfortunately, dealing with mycotoxins and mold in general, it actually damages the cell membrane integrity.

[Gary Brecke]

Unfortunately, these are not the types of infection that drive you to the er. They're ones that people learn to deal with.

[Dr. John Kim]

This reason why, when I work with clients, I want to empower you to be the best doctor for your own. And this is one thing that I'd like to teach is enhancing cellular resiliency.

[Gary Brecke]

I think there's such a paucity of expertise out there on what to do once you find these infections. How do we actually eliminate mold from the body?

[Dr. John Kim]

One of the things that worked out really well for patients and you don't need to spend a lot of money on it. And there is a company that supports this. I do.

[Gary Brecke]

Hey, guys, welcome back to the ultimate human podcast. I'm your host, human biologist Gary Brecke, where we go down the road of everything, anti aging, biohacking, longevity, and everything in between. And I should add, mold, mycotoxin, parasite, virus, heavy metal, and everything that's affecting your body. You know, today's podcast. This is a guest I've wanted to have on for a long time because I have been deep down the rabbit hole with many of you for the better part of a year now, talking about how these chronic, low grade infections are leading to systemic disease and pathology right before our eyes, not showing up on your labs and causing all, all kinds of conditions that we are chalking up to a consequence of aging or repeated infection, or we're chalking these up to a consequence of our environment or stress or a job or career or kids. And it's none of those things. Very often it is preventable toxicity. And today we're gonna talk about some of the big offenders and how we can get them out of our body. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. John Kim.

[Dr. John Kim]

Gary, thank you so much.

[Gary Brecke]

It is such a pleasure to have you. You know, before you, before the cameras started rolling today, I talked about a lecture that I gave in Salt Lake City going back about two years and the first, the morning lecture, which was about genetic methylation. I actually got a standing ovation from this crowd of physicians and Then that afternoon I did a 45 minute talk on toxicity and we talked about mold, mycotoxins, heavy metal toxicity and some of the consequences. And I was quite ridiculed and I don't want to say laughed off the stage, but I could tell they were just being tolerant until my talk ended and I actually had some ents come, come to me after the lecture and tell me that they didn't believe in mold or mycotoxins, that these were everybody, they commented, everybody's got mold, it's in and out of our bodies. They're basically tired of the mold cult. And I think over the last two years, through the detox challenges I've had, the experts like yourself that I've had on the podcast, people are accepting that these are real toxic loads with very real consequences. And I've been a part of, I've been really blessed to be a part of the journey of several people who have had young children with repeated sore throats where they were just about to remove their adenoids and they found a functional medicine doctor and said, put the brakes on this. This child has heavy metal mold and mycotoxins. Let's do a detox and see where we stand. And now they're 3, 4, 5 years symptom free. So if, if I could, for my audience, I'd like to back up to your story because a lot of the, the more influential and impactful people, really passionate people that come on this podcast are passionate and purpose driven because they solved a problem in their life, a big problem. And at 33 years old, you had a major heart attack.

[Dr. John Kim]

I did.

[Gary Brecke]

And I hope it's okay if I say that because I already said it.

[Dr. John Kim]

No, it's okay. It's okay. I call it the pain to glory story. Yeah, everybody has their.

[Gary Brecke]

I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that journey because it gives my listeners the why, you know, why are you here? Why are you so passionate? And, and at that time, I'm sure there were not a lot of resources available for you. You had to become your own citizen scientist. Thankfully, you're a pharmd, so you have an intricate knowledge of cellular biology, pharmacokinetics, so at least you had a vantage point to start from and maybe intelligently evaluate what was out there in the world. But I'd love for you to share that story.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, absolutely. So I was 33 years old, I just got back from my friend's wedding down in LA and this was exactly June 1st. And then three days later on June 4th, that's when I started having this heartburn. I always had a heartburn issue and I always had some kind of gut problem to begin with. I completely ignored it. And that particular day, for some reason, that pain was even higher. In the evening, that pain shut down right into my left arm. Completely ignored it, Went to sleep, woke up the following day like an idiot. And then having to go back to work. And then mid afternoon, that's when I decide to go to the urgent care center instead of er. And then the urgent care said, the doctor's like, you're having a heart attack right now. We have to get to the ER right away. Got into the ambulance, got to the ER and even the ER physician, even the attending cardiologist didn't believe that this 32 year old guy who actually got the cholesterol lab report from my doctor six months prior, they were looking at this. There's no sign of possibly actually having a heart attack, but this guy's having chest pain. So they were trying to rule out as being a pericarditis. And then when they did an echocardiogram, they found out that my left ventricle wasn't pumping well. So it's actually a sign of ischemia. They brought me to the cath lab. 85% blockage in my lad widowmaker.

[Gary Brecke]

Oh my gosh.

[Dr. John Kim]

Most people are not that lucky, especially for young people.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

Especially when you're in the 50s and the 60s, you have a compensatory mechanism in terms of your new formed blood vessels, basically. Right. To take care of that blockage. But generally for younger patients, they actually die quickly.

[Gary Brecke]

You know, I had a cardiologist, I watched a cardiologist give a lecture and he said, what is the first sign of advanced cardiac disease in. I think it was 35 years old and younger.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah.

[Gary Brecke]

And people gave all these answers and he said, the first sign of advanced cardiac disease is sudden death. Yeah, that's the first symptom.

[Dr. John Kim]

Absolutely.

[Gary Brecke]

So God's got a plan for you, my friend.

[Dr. John Kim]

That was, that was something that. Well, I didn't know that. But then I end up having to be in the cardiac ICU unit staring at a wall for three days wondering how did this happen? And then especially questions as of what led to this process. Right. Having to have a early cardiac disease at age of 33. And then I had this overweight physician coming in and telling me to cut out old meat, cholesterol and everything else. It put me on a atobastatin, 80 milligrams and I was like, this is nonsense. There's something wrong here. So I got home and I just sat there for seven days just wondering, like, what could I have done differently? So I went to my functional medicine doctor, who I'm good friends with. She actually asked me, I think you're dealing with tick borne illness. All I wanted to do was a vitamin C drip.

[Gary Brecke]

Tick borne illness.

[Dr. John Kim]

Wow. So she did a blood work and then after a month and a half later, that's when we tested positive For Aspergillus antibodies, IgM, IgG, Bartonella infection, Mycoplasma pneumoniae, Epstein Barr, mercury poisoning, on top of parasitic issues. So why does it occur? Well, there's an endothelial damage that occur from a bartonella infection, which is a cat scratch fever, which is common you could get to get from a tick borne illness, including a spider bite. So I actually was in Boy Scouts all my life and I probably end up having to contract it that way.

[Gary Brecke]

Okay.

[Dr. John Kim]

And then I lived in a very moldy house to begin with growing up. Right. And then also lived in a very stressful environment growing up as well. You know, living in a immigrant family, parents are constantly working, busy, et cetera. So that led to a lot of the neuroinflammation that I was dealing with. And as you know, all the cascade in terms of inflammatory response goes from the gut. So I always had a gut problem. And that was something that I should have caught, but I was just busy. And the unfortunate thing is that a lot of Americans, including entrepreneurs and executives and people that you work with, I'm quite sure the same issue where we

[Gary Brecke]

don't listen to our bodies, you know, it sends us signals.

[Dr. John Kim]

It does, yeah. And I wasn't listening.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

So that's when I already had an existing problem to begin with. I had anxiety left and right. I could not sleep that well when I was in my 20s and 30s. And then when I actually had that heart attack, that's when I stopped to listen and figuring out, all right, what's going on? And I got the answer. Now, it took me about two years to clear it out, but it was a very tough process. And that was the moment that I found out how cellular integrity is so vitally important for your health. And this is when start diving into lipid membrane medicine. Right. And utilizing phospholipid therapy and phosphoryl choline,

[Gary Brecke]

choline, ib, ibpc, ibc. I've done that too.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yep. But specifically at that time, I got connected with Dr. Ed Kane, who's a founder for Body Bio, and he actually read my red blood cell fatty acid analysis. And that particular test is very special. Run by Kennedy Krieger looks, looking at the entire structure of the cell membrane, looking at the lipoproxisomes and the renegade fats, looking at the fluid index of the actual cell membrane. And he designed a customized lipid therapy that I had to go through. And my goodness, for four months, I was severely sick because all that toxins dealing with was just getting dumped out and my body, especially my nervous system, was not ready for it. And I learned a lot from that point on and does how I approach, the clinical approach in dealing with mold toxicity, MCAs and all the different hyperbiotoxin issues that people dealing with. My approach is very different compared to what I had to go through, you know, back in 2015. So this is how everything came into play. So I was able to clear out Bartonella, mold toxicity issues, heavy metals.

[Gary Brecke]

And can we go into some of the details of that? Because I think there's such a paucity of expertise out there on what to do once you find these infections. How do we actually eliminate mold from the body? Or in some of these mycotoxins, how do we cleanse the body of heavy metals? Um, I'd love to start with mold because I really do feel like the medical community is finally starting to grasp these are real infections. They have real consequences, like we were talking about before the podcast started. Unfortunately, these are not the types of infections and chronic conditions that drive you to the er like your heart attack or take you to the urgent care. They're ones that people learn to deal with. Right. They just tolerate them. You tolerated the gut issues probably for years before it manifested in something that drove you to the ER and, and getting a hold of these at that stage when, you know, for people that are tuned into their body, you know, why do I have constant diarrhea, then constipation, then cramping, then irritability, then bloating, then gas and. And it seems to be intermittent and not related to what I'm eating. You know, am I fatigued all the time? Why do I seem to have brain fog at such a young age? These are. These are sort of signs your body's throwing up there. You need to pay attention to. What was the detox protocol? What did that. That look like for you? You did. You said you did the PC.

[Dr. John Kim]

So at that point in time, my doctor put me on body bowel PC for, from. From the get go, because we had to deal with the intravascular inflammation that I was dealing with. So that was something that that's really vital there. But also when you're looking at the disease states of a heart attack or any type of cardiovascular or even types of infection, that's a sign of a mitochondrial dysfunction to begin with. So that's when the lipid membrane medicines so vitally important to adding in the proper fat to quench the actual inflammation that was going on. So you're working on the upstream issue instead of the downstream problem that the person's dealing with. Right. So that was really, really vital there. And at that point in time, my doctor noticed that I was dealing with biofilm issues as well. So adding a biofilm buster. And there are companies out there utilizing different things. I mean, you could end up using prolific enzymes like nattokinase or serrapeptidase, N cysteine, phospholipid, like body bio PC I mentioned before.

[Gary Brecke]

Great company.

[Dr. John Kim]

Right. So they actually act as a biofilm buster as well. Because it dissolves. It's an emulsifier. It dissolves the biofilms. Right. And one of the inte intricate part of biofilm is that when you have history of taking antibiotic, for instance. Right. And then over exposure to deal with mold, heavy metals and immune dysfunction on top of this inflammation cascade, increased cholesterol cascade as well. All these are playing into the biofilm structure. And when you have a biofilm is very difficult to utilizing antifungal antimicrobials to collect infection. This reason why people, even though they might be gone through heavy amounts of antifungal protocol, they cannot get to the root of the issue. So that's where oftentimes just using binders or antifungals alone, it's not going to fix the problem. You got to really get to the root of the problem, which is biofilm mitochondrial dysfunction. But another thing that goes into play is the fact that these patients have trouble getting mycotoxins out to begin with because of their sympathetic nervous systems are overdriven.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

Things like detox, gut work, lymphatic drain, all these are deal with your parasympathetic nervous system state. Yeah. And oftentimes when you deal with mycotoxins, they already had existing nervous dysfunction to begin with. But when you're dealing with mycotoxins, especially chakothesins, which is a black bull coming from stachybotrys, it actually causes neural inflammation across the blood brain barrier, especially gliotoxins,

[Gary Brecke]

another one and neural inflammation. I wanted to find some of These terms like biofilm and neural inflammation and not assume that my audience knows what those, what those mean. Let's back up to biofilms. I mean, I, I have this image of like Saran wrap kind of wrapped over your cells, sort of preventing things from getting in and out, and then the cell building up this level of toxicity, but also not being able to get the nutrients. But how would you describe biofilms? You know, what are they?

[Dr. John Kim]

The easiest way to explain is, let's just you go to a lake and you have a flat surface of a rock on the, in the lake itself, and you see that there's a film, slimy film. That's biofilm.

[Gary Brecke]

Okay.

[Dr. John Kim]

It's part of our entire ecosystem for the microbials to protect itself from the environment.

[Gary Brecke]

I see.

[Dr. John Kim]

But when you're dealing with mold, it colonizes in your system, in your body, and actually has to have that particular defense to protect itself from the immune system. Right. And one of the interesting part about mold is it causes immunosuppression is one thing, but they also deal with the biophone issues. And then when you have molded, there's always heavy metal getting involved.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

So I don't tackle the heavy metal issues. I tackle that more first. Right. And then, and then when you utilizing proper lipid membrane medicine, especially using phospholipids, using essential oils, and then butyrate has to be another plate to effect because butyrate is a chemical chaperone to help decrease that DNA adduct issue coming from these biotoxins to be able to get the permanent remove all these things onto the mitochondria and the DNA.

[Gary Brecke]

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[Dr. John Kim]

kill them off and get rid of it with antimicrobials. But you got to be careful too. There has to be a step by step method there.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

So I know you had another guest here talked about Itraconazole. Yeah, yeah. And deal with that. Yeah. But one thing about those type of pharmaceutical drugs is that it's great. It works really well. And for people who are having over colonization deal mold, Itchicon is a great option. Unfortunately, it actually causes hepatotoxicity at the same time, it actually inhibits cytochrome P453A4 enzyme, which is vital for cholesterol.

[Gary Brecke]

Electron transplant chain.

[Dr. John Kim]

Oh, no, cytochrome P450, which is a cytochrome P450. Yeah. Which is a phase one metabolism. Right. So major drugs out there, statin drugs, for instance, Diltiazem, which is the blood pressure medication. Those drugs are metabolized by cytochrome P453A4 enzyme. So when you have a patient who is actually on those particular drugs, which a lot of people do. Right. And especially we talk about mold, actually increases cholesterol production in the body. These commonly actually are on statin drugs. You cannot put itraconazole on those patients right away. So you either have to take off the statins and then add in the itraconazole for a short period of time. But because of the hepatotoxicity issues, you got to do it for short burst. You cannot be putting on a patient for six months straight. So this reason why instead of actually going after those things, you got to fix the vital point. What is that? Your gut function.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

There's a causation of mold in your gut. And we could talk about why later, but that's something that first you have to do and then while you're Doing that, you try to lower the actual mold burden in the body and then once it gets lowered in enough, that's when you start to work on these systemic issue dealing with mycotoxins there.

[Gary Brecke]

So what would be, what are some of your go to tests for somebody that's having the types of symptoms that we've been talking about on the podcast? Brain fog, chronic gut issues, weight gain, water retention, poor focus and concentration, hormone imbalance. Because a lot of these are estrogen mimetics. Yeah. They're going to go and get a standard panel and they're going to get told they're fine.

[Dr. John Kim]

You could still stand a panel. There's a lot of story that could be told from the standard panel. Unfortunately not even just that. The issue is that the conventional medicine right now does not know how to read functional blood work correctly. So there are blood panels in terms of the ranges and then there's a functional ranges and there's optimal ways into looking at the blood work correctly.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

So you could tell about the story of the person's going through. But another thing is that you have to look at the biggest question is what are you trying to find? So we talked about mycotoxin for instance. So standard lab that I look to look at is real time lab urine mycotoxin testing. So this is something that looking at the metabolite of the mycotoxins that's coming out of the urine, there are certain limitations. There's no perfect test out there, but that's a gold standard that I'm to recommend.

[Gary Brecke]

Okay, I'm going to put a link to that.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah. So that's number one thing. And I also looking at looking at organic acid testing why we want to look at the mitochondrial dysfunction. How's the Krebs cycle functioning? So looking at lactate pyruvate. Right. You're also looking at the glutathione production as well. We or based on the organic acid testing, you could also looking at neurotransmitters. So these patients oftentimes very burnt out, low, low dopamine levels to begin with. So you got to work on their neurotransmitters. But it's not the point of giving more supplements. Got to get them outside to get the sunlight UVA right into the eye actually helps to create that natural dopamine the body really needs. And oftentimes when you do mycotoxins, they have photophobia, they have very high levels of sun sensitivity issues. They get burned very quickly. So you got to build up the sun callous. But it has to be the focal point into getting the circadian rhythm really balanced there. So that is one of the things that we could talk about later. But organic acid testing is really vitally important. The next test we're looking at is a comprehensive stool testing. I like to use Vibam wellness gut zoomer 5.0. We're looking at the full spectrum in terms of their gut inflammation markers. You're looking at the causation of the actual bacteria. Looking at some of the pathogens, especially talking about like parasites, other things like Citrobacter and other types of E. Coli, other, other infection type of it. You want to rule out whether that person is dealing with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, because if they actually have sibo, most likely they have SIFO as well, small intestinal fungal overgrowth in the system. So you have to look at the comprehensive in depth sense of it by also looking at how well the gut is able to produce short chain fatty acid.

[Gary Brecke]

And as soon as somebody gets sibo, they're put on high doses of antibiotics and just buying themselves a problem down the road.

[Dr. John Kim]

Huge. And you cannot use probiotics too much in this scenario. Oftentimes if you're using the right supplements at the wrong time, you get hurt very bad. Right. And this is a part where use of the right probiotic but also use of immunoglobulins is very important. So the company called Microbiome Labs, they produce immunoglobulin G. So igg, it actually is a binder that actually binds to selectively for E. Coli, strep, enterococcus, lipoprotein saccharide, which is lps, which is a biotoxin itself that E. Coli produces. And then the other aspect is actually binds to some of the mold colonization in the body. So that's more of a gentle way into getting the gut function back. And then really looking at, to utilizing spore based probiotic there as well, because that's less reactive on the patient dealing with sibo. But the spore based probiotic actually act as an antimicrobial to deal with a bacterial overgrowth the person's dealing with. So you have to do more of a step by step approach in terms of sequential ways in terms of getting these issues instead of actually just throwing the whole thing at the person and try to see what sticks.

[Gary Brecke]

So we've done the test for the secretions from biofilm, we've done a gut stool test.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, there's no perfect markers out there to looking at biofilms. There's none. I mean, there are muscle testers out there who are very talented to check if the person's dealing biofilms. But when you're dealing with over condensation of mold, there's always a play. And then there's other multiple infections, there's always play off biofilms. And if you actually look at their person's history, if they grew up having strep throat issues, including that ear infection, they had years of taking multiple antibiotics for a long time. There's definitely biofilm issue as well. So you got to understand that that is an integral, integral part of the entire protocol. But there's no perfect test out there to check for that. I wish there was, but. So that's how we. So that's the reason why a lot of doctors, including functional medicine practitioners, and they don't often miss that part. Right. That is vital, but they often miss it. So I was looking at it as, all right, so how's a person's history, how's a function person's happening? But also how reactive are they? If they actually are reactive in terms of food, chemicals, especially if they go on a Uber, for instance, and then they actually have a car fashion in there and they're getting reactive, they're having brain fog, they're wiped out for two days. That person has major issue dealing with MCAs, which is Mast cell activation syndrome issues hypersensitivity. But also play. The fact that there's a big play of biofilms that's happening there. Right.

[Gary Brecke]

You know, it's, it's also important not to go too far too fast with these patients. You know, I've. Early in my journey and functional medicine, we opened up our clinic. You know, we, we. A lot of people were coming in for weight loss. This is pre GLP ones.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah.

[Gary Brecke]

One of the things I noticed about very obese patients that go through rapid weight loss is they become so toxic. Migraines, rashes, you know, crushing fatigue, like fatigue where they can't even get out of bed. I'm not talking about somebody lose 15, 20 pounds. I'm like, somebody's going to lose a hundred pounds, 150 pounds. And the release of these toxins without fixing their detox pathways, which is something that I learned was kind of fascinating to me because there are a lot of these toxins that are trapped in these fat cells. And the same thing is true when you start going after some of these infections, especially sporulating infections, infections that are secreting these biofilms that in and of Itself becomes another toxic load.

[Dr. John Kim]

Huge.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

It actually causes more activation of the immune response. So that could be a big problem. So for in case in point, talking about mold itself, like mycotoxin is lipophilic, where it actually lodged into fat cells a lot more readily and the tissues itself. So that's why when you're doing a urine mycotoxin testing, let's just say a person's obese, they've been chronically exposed to mold toxins in a moldy house. Oftentimes when you're doing urine mycotoxin testing, their levels of mycotoxins are very low. Sometimes you don't even see it. So what's going on? The fat is basically holding onto that. So you need to really do a provoked urine testing to get the urine mycotoxin out. So you've heard of provoke urine testing for heavy metals?

[Gary Brecke]

Yes.

[Dr. John Kim]

Same thing in this scenario.

[Gary Brecke]

I didn't know you could provoke it for.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah. So what you do is you want to utilize minerals and bioflavonoids to solubulize the mycotoxins and getting that out to the kidneys. So use of molybdenum, for instance, is great to stabilize gliotoxins. Right. You actually have resveratrol and turmeric. So another good bioflavonoids in there. Right. So there's a company out there, the company name is alight. My mentor, Dr. Jill Christa, she formulated that thing, that entire supplement just for mycotoxin purposes. And I use it a lot. And one of the key supplement that I utilize now is called a color guard. Utilized all those things in there to help to stabilize mycotoxin so that you get the patient for about two weeks prior to collecting urine so that you get a proper reading on it. So that's one way of doing it. There's some doctors who.

[Gary Brecke]

And those are oral.

[Dr. John Kim]

Oral.

[Gary Brecke]

Okay.

[Dr. John Kim]

There's some doctors who utilize sodium butyrate, for instance, which is why sodium butyrate is a chemical chaperone. It actually removes the DNA adduct of these mycotoxins that bind to the DNA. Removes it. Right. So that's another topic that we could talk about too. But this is a really integral part of why mold is not just about the immune dysfunction or having allergies. It actually causes mitochondrial dysfunction deep into the cellular level down to the DNA. So when you affect the DNA, it actually affects the epigenetic expression of the actual tissue in itself. And reason why, especially for women, why is it that they're dealing with a lot of things like lupus. You're talking about Hashimoto's.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

So these are all interplay in terms of why these type of DNA adduct changing the epigenetic expression of the cell and the tissue itself resulted in an actual disease state that we see it right now.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah. Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

So there's always a root cause.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah. And you know, I've seen so many of these. So when, when someone has this suspicion, they do, they do these tests. You know, you said that you did the ivpc, the phosphatidylcholine or the PK protocol. Similar to PK protocol. I've done that too. I had some claudication in my veins, so I stopped after a little while.

[Dr. John Kim]

Oh my God. All my veins are completely cloudy.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

I had to go through 14 IV sessions using IVPC. And it's very, it's, it's great. You know, you get your mitochondrial function back very quickly. It's just, it's very caustic for your veins.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

So everything.

[Gary Brecke]

And it takes a long time to come back.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah.

[Gary Brecke]

It's not, you know, life threatening or anything.

[Dr. John Kim]

It's not.

[Gary Brecke]

It is, it is a little unnerving when you look down and they're all hard and you can kind of roll them and you go, I feel like that's a clot. And if that leaves, you know, am I going to.

[Dr. John Kim]

It's not going to happen that way.

[Gary Brecke]

But yeah, no, it doesn't happen that way.

[Dr. John Kim]

You get scared initially.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

But it's also, you know, IVPC is great. Now the issue is that when you're looking at the entire phospholipid complex, you're not just talking about phosphocholine, you're talking about phosphoenositol, serine and ethanolamine as well. So four different lip lipic, I'm sorry, phosphobic complex that we're seeing. So when you look at a cell membrane structure, for instance, about 70% of the cell membrane structure, the outer membrane especially. So when you audience out there, people don't know what cell membrane is. It's a bilateral structure of your entire cell.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

And that bilateral structure dictates in terms of how nutrients go in, waste going out and then as well as that cell membrane potential to allowing different hormone changes and functions and everything else that goes on. So it's vital for the cell membrane to function. Well, unfortunately, dealing with mycotoxins and mold in general, including other biotoxins used like lyme it actually damages the cell membrane integrity, so specifically mold, for instance. It actually causes lipid peroxidase and then also depletes the cardiolipin in the inner part of the membrane as well. And then when you're looking at the structure in itself, the early stage of cell danger response is the mitochondria's role to cause a lockdown of the particular cell by increasing phospholipid production inside the cell to lock the cell in. And this is the issue where the lack of cell to cell communication that goes on, but that's the early sign of cell danger response and why people are stuck in this process and why it is so vital that you work on that cellular health by utilizing these types of special lipid to actually help reverse these things as well.

[Gary Brecke]

Can you describe what cell danger response is?

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, sure. Cell danger response sounds terrible. Yes. So cell danger response was a term coined by Dr. Robert Nabio. He's an MD, PhD out of UC Davis, and he's still working right now and really doing. He has a different metabolic lab that he does a lot of things and he's able to prove in terms of what his theory was at that point in time. And he explained why certain disease states, especially like auto inspection disorder, that he was working a lot with, why these patients are stuck in their healing process. Right. Everybody goes to a cell danger response, right? You woke up, that's a cell danger response.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. John Kim]

You waking up, your cortisol level shoot, riding high and you got to do all these different things, that's a cell dangerous response. Everybody goes through it. But why is it that some people going through a certain case scenario, and I call it the Humpty, Humpty Dumpty effect, reason being is the Humpty Dumpty is sitting on a wall, it's fine. But if someone comes in or some wind or something comes in and poke them aside, he falls over, his shell completely cracks. And that's how unstable people are right now. Living. And unfortunately, Covid happening, it blew up the lid in just how unstable these people were to begin with. So that's why a lot of people dealing with long Covid sequelae issues right now. So that's all sign of cell danger response. So why, what is that? It is cell danger response is a evolutionary protective mechanism that the cell actually had built into the process to protect itself. From what? From biological issues like mold, bacteria, fungi, talking about parasites, including viruses, and then all the things like physical trauma issues. Right. Could be TBI or traumatic brain injury, for instance, or Other things like UV radiation, there are other things in terms of psychological traumas, in terms of emotional or psycho or ptsd, for instance. And then there are chemical stressors like heavy metals or glyphosates. Right. All these different things, but these are causing that much stress onto the cell in itself. So instead of the mitochondria making ATP now it's actually shuts that ATP production down, shuts oxyophosphorylation, goes to complete defense mode. So this is where mitochondria dictates in terms of how the body's going to shift. But if the stress response is overwhelming, I talked about the toxic bucket effect. Everything's laid in. If that response is overwhelming, the mitochondria cannot get back to homeostasis. And then it's complete in that. On threat mode.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah, that sympathetic state, that fight or flight state.

[Dr. John Kim]

So when you think about like a fire alarm, for instance, it's keep on turned on. Doesn't know when the fire is gone, but still keep on turning on. So this reason why people who had removed themselves from a moldy environment, for instance, they're still sick because the overall cell danger response has not been resolved correctly, resulting in mitochondrial dysfunction, and they're consistently sick. In dealing with autoimmune disorders, brain fog, fatigue problem, etc. You could do all the NAD you want to do, you could do all the analytics and all these different things, but if you have an unresolved issue cellularly in dealing with toxicity, you cannot out biohack yourself out of that. You gotta resolve that cell danger response correctly.

[Gary Brecke]

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[Dr. John Kim]

Correct.

[Gary Brecke]

And so as we detoxify and we go after these biofilms and eventually go after the bugs themselves, there's going to be a period where people may get worse before they get better. Correct. Right. And you try to manage that by not going too fast, by having this graduated approach. In fact, you. You call it, which I thought was absolutely genius. The encore method, the environment, the nervous system, cellular integrity, which virtually nobody talks about. You know, Dr. Pompa and there's few other. Few other leaders in this area. Optimized detox and rebalancing in the microbiome. I think what happens is most people skip the ENCO and go right to the R and start balancing the microbiome.

[Dr. John Kim]

Correct.

[Gary Brecke]

Because they think as soon as you have gut dysbiosis, this is a probiotic floor issue, and therefore just probiotics, maybe some digestive enzymes. But the truth is that you're not getting rid of the toxins and the biofilms. And what's truly at the root cause of this, even preventing heavy metal detox, which is going to allow heavy metals to build up and even interrupting the methylation cycle for the proper use of light metals. Right. Which is the, the way that we, you know, methylate and incorporate light metals like magnesium and zinc and B12. Um, so, you know, once you've disabled or impaired this, this, this process, you have to repair that even before you restore the gut microbiome. And I love that you put that at the very end, you know, because first you clean the terrain. I've been using this analogy so much on my podcast because I, I think it just said in such a clear picture, when a, when a fish gets sick, the first thing we do is clean the tank. Right. And because it's so obvious, when you're looking through murky water, it's full algae, you know, it's full of dirt, it's cloudy. You understand why the fish is sick. But when you're looking at a human externally, you can't see the cloudy water inside. And, and so we don't think about Cleaning the tank. And, and this approach is, is, is a very restorative approach. I would love to actually just walk through the encore method.

[Dr. John Kim]

Sure.

[Gary Brecke]

Because I think it's a great foundational framework for identifying, removing the toxins, rebuilding the body's damaged cell membranes and phospholipid bilayers, and then fixing the gut microbiome. So can you, can you walk us through this?

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, absolutely. So the reason that I came up with this particular encore method was after learning and diving into the whole cell danger response method, when you look at Dr. Robert Nevio's work of cell danger response, it's a very complex and it's very difficult for you to take that information and put into clinical use of it. And so I was just thinking like, what can I do to utilize this correctly for people who are dealing with biotoxin issues? Like if it was me back in 2015, if I had a particular methodology, what would I do differently? The first thing was basically the environment factor there. Right. Environment. If you are stuck in the same environment that made you sick, you're not going to get better.

[Gary Brecke]

No chance. I always say that.

[Dr. John Kim]

Right. You cannot out biohack on that part. Right. The environment's the best thing that you could actually end up fixing. And this part is often difficult. The reason being is you live in a house where it's very moldy. It could be costly, it could be costing you $5,000 to remediate up to $150,000 or more. Right. So people who have limited budget, that becomes a very triggering issue. So you gotta. First off, what you need to do is you need to calm.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

You need to really settle down in terms of. All right, so what are the issues that we're dealing with right now? Where the most problematic areas, you need to find the right testing company to come in and assess the overall damage of the actual issue at the house. So I recommend a company called Weinspect. Weinspect, great company too, that is nationally recognized and they are one of the pinnacle in terms of looking at how proper mold testing should be done at house. It's not just about air sampling. That's the worst thing you could do, doing air sampling tests in the house because depending on whether air is being stagnant or being flowing, that mycotoxin testing is going to be affected. Right, Right. Also that's the reason why I prefer going with more surface testing. The reason being is mycotoxins especially rise on the dust particles like a, like a carpet on a, on a ride. So that's where mycotoxins settle in. So this is where when you want to looking at the overall sediment of the mycotoxin burn that goes in the house, you're looking at that. So ermi testing is a good one to looking at. And there are other testing companies that you could do as well on your own if you'd like to. Doesn't give you the overall comprehensive issues because it doesn't necessarily check for like water damages behind the wall, for instance. So a company called the Dust test is a great one that I like to utilize. Dust test.

[Gary Brecke]

Okay.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, it's like $279. You could do one sampling of the area to figure out. All right, so how much of a mycotoxin issues I'm dealing with.

[Gary Brecke]

Right, right.

[Dr. John Kim]

But it's just going to give you some pictures. But this is where you got to have to work with a professional company to look at that.

[Gary Brecke]

Okay.

[Dr. John Kim]

The second thing I would also recommend if you could hire the same people that does it. Great. But building biologist, why non native emf? Why is that? And this, I'm a strong believer in this part now, more and more the reason being is why is it that people are getting sicker and sicker even though we have advanced in medicine and such. I mean you could talk about food, the glyphosates and all these things, but when you look at the bombarding issue, dealing with the cellular stress that we're dealing right now with non heavy emf, it's over than anything we could actually fathom now. Right. Compared to what it was 100 years ago is much, much greater. Yeah. So you're looking at reducing that non heavy EMF exposure. So especially hardwire everything in the house. Maybe you want to reduce the exposure. Dealing with WI fi signal, cell phone signals, another problem too. Right. So you got to get in terms of removing that. But that could actually oversensitize a person who's dealing with hypervigilance state. Like for instance, if you're dealing with MCAs, I think you have Dr. Demsy on recently.

[Gary Brecke]

Right. Amazing. Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

So I mean she's a foremost authority in the topic of MCAs. But when I see clients with MCAS issues, it's not the fact that's mast cell activity activity syndrome. It's not the fact that the mast cell is triggered by mold, but it's just the over response of cell danger response that had gone wrong, that the body is in that hyper vigilant state. And you got to talk about non native emf that's the really important factor.

[Gary Brecke]

What do you mean by non native.

[Dr. John Kim]

Non native emf? So especially talking about WI fi cell phone signaling. Right. There is going to be EMF naturally. Right. There's always different cosmic rays that actually occurs up in the sun. Everything else in the. But when you talk about these non native EMF that is artificially driven and built because of today's technology that we actually have is bombarding our cells and non AVMF issues, what it does is cellularly, it actually impacts. It ligates the cell membrane number one. Number two, it actually activates the voltage calcium ion channel. So you have an influx calcium going into the cell and then dumping up magnesium. So you have all these people who actually been taking magnesium supplements. They can't get it up, they can't get it better. Why? Maybe they're getting overexposure to non EMF and mold issues that you're not even aware of.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

So anytime looking at the environment factor in terms of the encore method, non IBMF is one of the top things I tell people to do. And then second thing is blue light toxicity issues as well. So obviously I'm having a blue light blocking gas.

[Gary Brecke]

I usually are wearing mine too. What happened to my glasses? Guys, are those yours? Now I need to wear them. Give me those fat actors. All right. Thank God.

[Dr. John Kim]

So blue light issues. Blue light actually affects methylation.

[Gary Brecke]

Not anymore.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, well, but think about it. People who are dealing with already MTHFR issues to begin with, and then they are already getting bombarded with different types of environmental factors. And then you're getting the issue dealing with blue light toxicity. It overwhelms the response. Why? And because blue light affects the methylione pathway, so you can't methylate well. So all this discussion about methylation. All different things. Listen, I'm. You're the first one that's been out there speaking a lot about methylation. I appreciate that.

[Gary Brecke]

Thank you.

[Dr. John Kim]

But in a scenario like a person dealing with hypersensitivity issues, you gotta look at the environment as well, not just about the whole environment.

[Gary Brecke]

You know, I've been learning this, you know, last two years especially, and I'm always trying to evolve. And there were those cases where because we had about 200,000 patients that came through our functional clinic, and I would say the majority of them healthy young adults that were dealing with some challenges. You fix methylation and there was some shift in the positive direction, sometimes dramatic shift. Other ones, there was no change at all. And sometimes they would start over methylating. They'd even have negative consequences. Those are the ones that I really started to focus in on. And in the last 24 months, I'm starting to realize that it's, it's more than just methylation. Right. And that it's, you can see the genetic breaks which makes them susceptible.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yes.

[Gary Brecke]

But it doesn't guarantee their outcomes like the epigenetic model. But now that I'm further down the rabbit hole on these environmental toxins, that was the missing link in our practice that we hadn't quite closed the gap. You know, we got the ball like 80 yards down the field. We just couldn't move it that last 20 yards in, in a lot of people. And they were very resistant to treatment. And this has a lot to do with what you're talking about. You know, this has a lot to do with.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yes, Toxic. And then there's another issue where overmethylation, you just mentioned before. So in my practice, what I do is instead of actually going after the methylation first, I'm looking at methyltransferase choline pathway. So if you look at that pathway itself, it's part of the whole homocysteine cycling. If you look at that, what is body producing? Phosphocholine and creatine.

[Gary Brecke]

Yes.

[Dr. John Kim]

So if you supplement those two, it puts less stress on the homocysteine pathway. Person is not overreactive, leaving more methyl

[Gary Brecke]

groups for homocysteine to methionine. And you know, the, the other big one that we uncovered was the saw, you know, not this, this hyper homocysteinemic symptoms, not coming from hyper homocysteinemia, but coming from elevated S adenosol homocysteine. And that's a very difficult one to test for. At least it has been historically because of the stability of how you have to keep the sample and everything else. And that was another big key that we unlocked. But what you're saying is supplement for the methyl groups that are being over utilized in the homocysteine pathway so that you can leave more of that methylation cycle for the recycling of homocysteine, which has its own set of consequences, most of these hyperhomocystinemic patients. But in fact, above a certain level, we saw hypertensive, you know, results because of the vascular constriction. We saw all kinds of, you know, you know, consequences. And it's actually rarely tested, even on cardiac panels. Yeah, you know, we're all looking to see reactive protein and CK and, and you know, the classic markers, but not looking at what could be irritating. Absolutely. Those Pathways.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah. So. So these are things that we are looking at there and then looking at the environment, more factors in terms of the person's trauma, how the relationship, they are living inside the house, are they living in an abusive household, how's their work environment? All those things are really important there. Generational trauma is a big one too.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

Right. So this is the part that e the end of the encore method dealing with nervous system regulation. Oftentimes because of the mycotoxin causing neuroinflammation, these patients are in a hyper driven, hyper vigilant, parasympathetic, sympathetic nervous system state. So how do we create that parasympathetic? One of the things that worked out really well for patients and you don't need to spend a lot of money on it. And there is a company that supports this. I do heart math breathing called the heart coherency breathing technique.

[Gary Brecke]

Wow.

[Dr. John Kim]

So I mean you probably heard of box breathing technique.

[Gary Brecke]

Oh yeah, yeah. And heart coherence too.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah. So heart coherency. Why this is such a different thing is that when you're doing that heart coherency breathing technique, it creates the coherency state from your heart to your brain and that actually helps to calm a lot of the issue dealing with mast cell immune dysfunction and. And then much more in terms of the hypersensitivity the person dealing with. So how do you do that?

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah, I was gonna say. Can you describe this first?

[Dr. John Kim]

So very easy. You could. All you need to do is close your eyes and then focus on the center of your heart. And then afterwards you want to focus on what is making you happy, joyful and grateful about. So when you think about those three positive things, what it does is shift your overall brain state into a coherency based on the positive affirmation and thoughts. And while you're doing that, you're going to breathe into the nose five seconds and you're going to exhale out five to seven seconds. Inhale through the nose again. Exhaling out. One more time. Inhale, exhaling out.

[Gary Brecke]

And that is it better?

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, that's all I do. And so what I also recommend patient to do is I give them actually, it's called the HeartMath device. It actually checks for your coherency state between your heart and your brain. There's a biofeedback device you just put in your ear. And the company called HeartMath actually sell this heart math. Yeah, HeartMath. So that's an institute that trains physicians and clinicians out there to doing this particular Breath work and management of nervous system dysregulation by creating coherency state and not only affecting positive ways into the body, but also working in terms of deep rooted issue into the trauma issue as well. Why your heart actually is another nervous sensory as 40,000 different nerves stemming from the heart. And then is able to take in all that information and bring it to your brain, not the brain, to the heart itself. So you think about persons dealing with trauma issues, hypervigilant state, all these different things. Once you create the coherency state in the heart, a lot of symptoms end up having to disappear. I'll give you a perfect example. I had a client who actually lost her son 18 years ago, had a boating accident, the sun fell off a boat, watched the son died. She's constantly dealing with hypervigilance state anxiety, et cetera was affecting her life. And she was not ready to do, to work with me. And I do work with clients one on one. And all I did was taught her how to do this particular breathing technique. Her resting heart rate used to be 90. After six weeks, her resting heart was at 60.

[Gary Brecke]

Wow.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah. Crazy. I couldn't even believe it. That particular change and one thing that you start noticing is that the person's face completely changed as well. Why? Because they're not living in the stress response state anymore. They're in a coherency state.

[Gary Brecke]

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[Dr. John Kim]

So this is the reason why when you're working with people dealing with botoxins, it's so vital that not only you work on the environment, work on the nervous system.

[Gary Brecke]

I love that.

[Dr. John Kim]

Because environment nervous system now affects your cellular health, right? Your mitochondria is not just about making ATP immune system as well. So it's not just about making ATP. Mitochondria is a sensory organelle, is able to dictate everything that goes in the body, including the mitochondria, dictating just how you methylate, also how you detox, but also how you heal.

[Gary Brecke]

So fascinating, the interconnectivity. You know, I've always said that some of the worst experiments that we do are when we take structures out of the body, cells out of the body, what have you, and we look at how they behave in a laboratory, and then we assume that when we put them back in the body, they're going to behave the same way. Way, and they don't. I mean, because cells are like human beings. They behave in communities, you know, and, you know, there's something in psychiatry called the, the herd mentality. Right. You know, when you, when you're, you're in a crowd, if the crowd starts surging and everybody just starts running one direction, you'll just start running. You don't even know why. It's like everybody else is running. And this is the way that, that cellular activity influences other cells and how metabolically healthy cells can become metabolically sick because they're an environment with other metabolically sick cells. And, and it's kind of analogous to this herd mentality. And maybe nothing that we can do would touch the entire system simultaneously as things like heart coherence and getting our autonomic nervous system out of this sympathetic state into a parasympathetic state. You know, as, as, as a, as a singular intervention. I can't think of anything that has more of a systemic effect and more of an immediate effect.

[Dr. John Kim]

Exactly. And one thing that I learned more and more about, you know, cell membrane medicine is that cortisol especially push the body to producing phospholipase, a2 enzyme, which ligates a cell membrane. So the higher stress response you're dealing with affects the cell membrane. Right. So like the works of Dr. Bruce Lipton, for instance, he talks a lot about the mindset and the feeling and how that affects the cellular health is all connected there, and it's really vital there. So one of the things that I do, obviously we talked about the lipid membrane medicine. The first thing I tell people to do is getting your circadian rhythm balanced. That's the first thing. Right. So that light day cycled aspect of it has to be really dialed in. So I actually utilize an app called my circadian. It was actually formed by my friend Sarah Kleiner. And that particular app tells you when the daylight, a daybreak is gonna be occurring to get that person out the door, getting that initial start off that blue light emitting from the sun and the infrared. The infrared affects positive changes within the overall mitochondrial function.

[Gary Brecke]

But this is the first what 45 minutes ish.

[Dr. John Kim]

I would do about. Obviously, you know, people have busy lives and you know, I'm not saying 45

[Gary Brecke]

minutes outside, I'm saying within the first 45 minutes of the sun cresting their eyes and what they call first light.

[Dr. John Kim]

I would recommend the first thing. So for instance, like we're in Miami, obviously, and the day break for this Morning was at 6:45am So I usually like to go out between, you know, within the 10 minute window of that time. Okay, so start to getting that blue light emission there. Okay. So once you start having this blue light and this first light, it actually helps to lower cortisol response. Right. Also helps with proper fatty acid metabolism and metabolic process. But another thing that the sunlight does is obviously, you know this, Our mitochondria makes its own water. So that structural water that carries in

[Gary Brecke]

the cell gallons of it every day. Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

And that structure, cell structure water is a vital point. Instead of doing cellular detox, I wonder

[Gary Brecke]

if, if the stress response increases the production of deuterium.

[Dr. John Kim]

It does, you know, it does, it does.

[Gary Brecke]

So we were told that destroys the, the, the Krebs cycle.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, so. So, you know, sometimes that is very hard to discuss with, with clients. But I started using a company called Light Water, so. So you have 5 per million is one good thing to start with. You don't want to do too high of a deuterium depleted water too fast. I mean that causes another level of issues because now you're dumping everything out.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

So you got to be very careful with that. Another water that I started using is Gerald Steiner sparkling water at the supermarket. So the higher the altitude where the water sourced, the lower the deuterium state.

[Gary Brecke]

Ah, I did not know that.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, so that's really vital.

[Gary Brecke]

Deuterium water is hard to get a hold of. There's like a place in, I want to say Bucharest.

[Dr. John Kim]

Bucharest is one, but then also one part of Mexico, Tijuana.

[Gary Brecke]

Okay.

[Dr. John Kim]

There was a, there's a crater. I might be wrong on the location, but there was one parts of Mexico where the, a meteorite hit that area. So that there, that area is depleting deuterium depleted water source there. So a lot of these mitochondriacs apparently go down there.

[Gary Brecke]

Did you just make up a word?

[Dr. John Kim]

No, no, no. This is, this is a term that's a term by. Actually Dr. Jack Cruz.

[Gary Brecke]

I've heard of hypochondriacs, mitochondriacs.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, Dr. Jack Cruz. I mean, he's foremost in terms of looking at this whole, you know, cellular health and looking at circadian rhythm. But no, it's really the powerful part. Even like deuterium is very important to. When you, the studies out also, I think it was six weeks in terms of drinking deuterium depleted water, was able to reverse type 2 diabetes.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah, no, I, I've read these studies and, and deuterium, you know, our bodies make this intracellular water and, and estimates are as high as 100 gallons a day. When you start telling people that you make 100 gallons of intracellular water every day, they go, that's amazing. Impossible. I only drank a half a gallon of water. We make it the same way we make it in space. You take two hydrogens, one oxygen, you slap it together, you have a water molecule. So we're not capable of drinking enough, enough water to feed our mitochondria. So we manufacture this from, from a gaseous state. And, and when you add this extra proton, it becomes heavy water or deuterium. And, and deuterium, when it enters the Krebs cycle is like the Tasmanian devil. It breaks it. And yeah, I've been talking about this and being a fan of it for, for a long time because, and stress and, and other things, we, we produce a lot more deuterium water. There's a lot of evidence even that keto dieting of being in a ketotic state increases the production of deuterium depleted water. Yes, it makes, it does.

[Dr. John Kim]

Okay, it does. And then, and then certain things like seafood, for instance, like oysters, wild caught fish. So the cold water fish and seafood are great for chimney depleted food source. Eating things more seasonally based on where you are is really important there. So anytime we're good with these type of biotoxin clients, you probably could ask about what kind of diet is good for you. Yeah, Paleo based seasonal diet.

[Gary Brecke]

Paleo based seasonal diet. Love that.

[Dr. John Kim]

The seasonal. Why? Because depending on where you are, that sun codes a different message into the food and that actually helps to empower your mitochondria to function. Well, it's not about picking up avocado somewhere up in the North Pole. That's not what you want to do.

[Gary Brecke]

Right, Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

Right. You don't want to eat banana in the middle of a winter either. That actually impacts more on the cellular function there. So you could do all the biohacking you want to do.

[Gary Brecke]

It's fascinating how we were just designed to be in sync with nature.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yes.

[Gary Brecke]

You know, and western medicine has been using, or Eastern medicine has been using forest bathing and things for centuries very effectively. And I always say if something has been around for centuries, like acupuncture or what have you, it's probably because it works. Right. Things don't last 5,000 years that don't work. And I think our reluctancy is to put our faith back in the basics, you know, very often because, you know, we believe a lot more in what man makes us than what God gave us. I mean, you even are a leading expert on drug induced mitochondrial dysfunction, which I find a whole. Should do a whole podcast on just that. Yeah, I want to finish the encore method. Yeah. So we went through the environment, we went through the nervous system.

[Dr. John Kim]

Cellular health right now.

[Gary Brecke]

Cellular health.

[Dr. John Kim]

So basically about the circadian rhythm and why that's important part. Grounding is another thing that you could definitely do. Really impact it.

[Gary Brecke]

I'm being so vindicated right now.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah. So really impact in terms of doing that, watching this. Why? Because that, that overall grounding actually increase redox potential in the cell membrane. Right. So all those things there. So the neck. And then while we're doing that, we could incorporate doings like lipid membrane medicine. So phospholipids, a body bowel PC specifically I recommend all the time.

[Gary Brecke]

I just take it prophylactically every morning.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, you know, that too. But I. When I work with clients who are dealing with botoxin issues, generally what I would recommend is around, you know, 10 to 15 mls of PC liquid from body bio.

[Gary Brecke]

Okay.

[Dr. John Kim]

So that's one of the vital thing. But when I work on cell membrane, I'm looking at in terms of how these biotoxins cause DNA damage. So DNA adduct we talked about.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

And we talked about how butyrate actually act as a chemical chaperone.

[Gary Brecke]

And most of us are so butyrate deficient. We're not getting enough fiber, we're not getting enough soluble fiber or insoluble fiber.

[Dr. John Kim]

And you could do a stool analysis to see that the short chain fatty acid production is down, keystone bacteria down. So all these things are affecting your butyrate production. And butyrate is vital to protect your DNA. Not only about digestion, not about feeding your colonocytes, but really impacting the DNA function.

[Gary Brecke]

Correlated links to cancer are mind numbing.

[Dr. John Kim]

Absolutely. And butyrate also actually affecting positive changes in Your metabolic process, especially glucose.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

So GLP1s especially. Right. All those things. But one other thing about the DNA adduct I mentioned before is that these things like aflatoxin, even mercury, heavy metals, these things end up bind to the DNA structure, change the epigenetic of how the particular cell is supposed to function. And these reasons why your chronic disease states what butyrate does is acts as a chemical chaperone, cleaves that off and then you have phospholipid like PC for instance comes in sweeping that while helping to mend the actual cell membrane structure by adding in. And this is where the other things like bioactive oil like balance oil from body bio, adding in liner lake which is omega 6 and alpha lemonade which is omega 3 help to restructure the cell membrane. Adding in gamma linoleic like evening primrose oil help to further decreasing the inflammation pathway. Right. Adding in things like special pro resolving mediators. Right. So SPM based fish oil is really vital there. So bodybio actually has a protocol resolvent. And why am I adding spm? Is that in the early stage of cell danger response I mentioned about the ATP production is not there anymore.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

What the mitochondria does is it. It dumps out that ATP out of the cell to act as a extracellular ATP is a, is something called a damp. It's a danger associated mediator property.

[Gary Brecke]

Damps and pimps.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, damps. So that that signals to all the cells that there's a danger going on. Well, thing is, everything in terms of

[Gary Brecke]

the body is we talk about herd mentality. Here's the actual mechanism that it's creating. It's poisoning its environment.

[Dr. John Kim]

Yeah, exactly. So damp situation is unresolved issues that goes on. So what the body does is taking, taking that extracellular ATP and then turns into spm. Our body produces own special pro resolve medias SPM to shut that inflammation down. And oftentimes with an ongoing inflammation that SPM reserve goes down. Right. So this is where getting proper fresh cold water fish is very important and just adding into a particular diet. But I like to using SPM as a actual supplementation to resolving it. And then the other part that I mentioned before, the cell membrane and how the DNA adduct. Well, these type of mycotoxins also causes protein misfolding.

[Gary Brecke]

Right.

[Dr. John Kim]

When you have a protein misfolding that in itself affects how the tissues and the and proteins are being synthesized. Yeah. So how do you resolve that? Adding in Tatka which is secondary bile salt relieves pressure on the Endoplasmic reticulum as a de stressor but also helps to unfold the protein misfolding properly. So this is how you able to get the cellular impact damage from the mycotoxins there. So this is, this is a really important point. Then you start working on the optimize the detox pathway. Specifically gut function has to be number one. You got to re establish bowel flow as well. And more than mycotoxins, it actually affects bile flow, specifically mold for instance, like aflatoxin. I'm so ochratoxin and trichothesis for instance, those end up having to impact something called cytochrome 7A1. So I talked about the cytochrome P453A4. Well, there's a particular enzyme called 7A1 which is needed as a rate limiting step for bioproduction. Unfortunately mold affects that.

[Gary Brecke]

So it reduces the secretion of bile.

[Dr. John Kim]

Production of bile.

[Gary Brecke]

Right, Production of bile production.

[Dr. John Kim]

And then the other part is there's a transport chain called BSAB which is a bio salt export pump. And that particular pump gets shut down by mycotoxins as well. So you cannot produce it and you cannot even get the prop bow flow going on. So this is where people cannot get to do the natural detox they're looking looking to do.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

So this why adding in during fat

[Gary Brecke]

metabolism and all kinds.

[Dr. John Kim]

Correct. Even estrogen metabolism. Yeah. So like when you're doing a comprehensive stool analysis, I see that the person's beta glucuron is elevated. That's the number one sign that there's mold and there's a bowel flows affected. So they're recirculating, basically detoxifying the entire body because of lack of bowel flow happening.

[Gary Brecke]

That makes so much sense. And then rebalancing the microbiome.

[Dr. John Kim]

So this is where the proper use of antifungal fungal is really important there I mentioned about the spore based probiotic. But antifungals I would recommend decreasing the fungal overload in the body. Then working on the mycotoxins. And there are different herbals like Golden Thread, Milia, all the different, different type of things including olive leaf. And then the last part is the use of pharmaceuticals. And I don't say not to, I use it. At the last, I recommend using itraconazole for about two weeks just to get the internal condensation deal with mold permanently. And this is where oftentimes when I work with clients about 5 to 6 months able to reverse their mycotoxin issues there.

[Gary Brecke]

Wow.

[Dr. John Kim]

Unless they're dealing with hypersensitivity issues, but some of the minor, non complicated issues, they tend to get to recover from mold and mycotoxinship within five to six months.

[Gary Brecke]

That's fantastic. Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

Wow.

[Gary Brecke]

I, I hope that you'll come back on the podcast again because I would love to do an entire deep dive on drug induced mitochondrial dysfunction. I'd love to because I think the, the leading scientists in, in longevity and aging now are inside the mitochondria. We've actually found like the deepest tip of the root. And we understand that most of these bugs, mold, mycotoxins, parasites, viruses, heavy metals, at the end of the day, they are all disrupting this critical organelle. And the consequences of that are so vast, there's such a myriad of consequences. And even in the functional medicine space, we, we still do chase these consequences instead of getting deeper, deeper, deeper down into the mitochondrial function. So I'd love to bring you back to even just do a whole deep dive on that.

[Dr. John Kim]

May I add two things there?

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah, of course.

[Dr. John Kim]

So one thing you talked about, the drug induced mitochondrial dysfunction is something that I'm always passionate about. I'm also passionate about pharmacogenomics. This is why I looked at the whole cytochrome P450 enzymes structure.

[Gary Brecke]

That's what your PhD is into. Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

One of the things that was interesting when I was looking at the mycotoxin that we have some drugs out there that are derived from mycotoxins. Right. So there's a drug called mycophenolate. The brand name is called Cellcept. They utilize a particular drug for kidney transplant patients so that you don't have a organ rejection. Well, that mycophenolate, that's a drug name derived from mycophenolic acid, which is a mycotoxin itself.

[Gary Brecke]

Wow.

[Dr. John Kim]

So utilizing mycotoxins to drive the particulate, that's how powerful these mycotoxins are of causing immunosuppression. Reason why a lot of times when you're seeing, I'm quite sure there's parents out there listening, kids who are dealing with constant strep issues. Right. And causation dealing with these things. They are derived from mold, especially aflatoxin ochratoxin, causing that problem. Yeah. When you're having chronic UTI issues also.

[Gary Brecke]

Why?

[Dr. John Kim]

Because mold and mycotoxins unfortunately affect the mucosal lining of the bladder. Right. And then you have a higher issue dealing with uti.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Kim]

Right. So why is it the woman dealing with chronic UTI Issues and they're trying to get to the rooter. They use multiple antibiotics and I can't do it. Mycotoxins? Yeah, specifically citronin and ochratoxin. Those are the big ones that those

[Gary Brecke]

are showing up on everybody's urine test. You know, we do a lot of vibrant total toxicity testing and that one is always pegged on there.

[Dr. John Kim]

And the second thing I want to add is that this is where the enhancing the resiliency part is coming. As you start to increase the redox potential in your cell membrane, a lot of issue deal with mold, parasites and all these different biotoxins is not of an issue anymore. Reason why is you built that cellular resiliency and that negative ion charge and then the electric potential in the cell membrane, your body's mechanisms to repel those out. Unfortunately, we are losing that ability. And I strongly believe it's because of the environment is one thing, but I think it's non native EMF issues and blue light issues that's bombarding our entire system that the body doesn't have that. So this reason why when I work with clients and I jokingly say this is this, is that at some point I don't want to ever see you again.

[Gary Brecke]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. John Kim]

It's not because I don't like them. It's just that I want you to be selfish, reliant on yourself, to be the right doctor. I want to empower you to be the best doctor for your own. And this is one thing that I'd like to teach. And this is what, this is why part of the encore method is enhancing resiliency. Cellular resiliency. That is. Love that. Right?

[Gary Brecke]

Love that. So I wind down all of my. We're going to go into my VIP group because these are the guys that I let know ahead of time who's coming onto the podcast. They, they know that you're coming on. They've got a list of questions for you. So the question I want to get to my VIPs but. But I always wind down my podcast by asking every guest the same question, which is what does it mean to you to be an ultimate human? There's no right or wrong answer.

[Dr. John Kim]

Of course not. The ultimate human is, is to have cellular resiliency. To live your full life to your potential that God has given you.

[Gary Brecke]

Wow, I love that. To have the cellular resiliency. Hear that guys? The cellular resiliency. I love it. Thank you so much, Dr. Kim, for coming on the Ultimate Human podcast. I have a feeling that you're going to be a regular guest. Such a paucity of expertise in this area. And even though you provided the scientific background, I think you made it understandable for my audience. Thank you, and we deeply appreciate that. And, guys, until next time, Master Science.