← Therapy and Theology
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- [00:06]
Lisa Terkers
This is Lisa Terkers and you're listening to Therapy and Theology where we help you work through what you walk through. Dealing with the aftermath of someone else deeply disappointing us can leave us hurt, weighed down with heavy emotions and doubtful of God's justice. If you're wondering if it's possible to find the healing perspective you're longing for, I created a free resource just for you called when the person who hurt you got away with it. Three days to moving forward and it pairs perfectly with today's episode topic. Together we'll have space to acknowledge our hurt, ask some hard questions, and find the healing perspectives we need. Just click the link in the show notes to get this resource for free today. Now onto the show. Well, I promised we would be back to continue this really important conversation, and we were just talking about. Sometimes we can be in denial over the severity of a situation, or we can be in denial over the fact that it's not just isolated instances or a mistake, but rather it really is a pattern. And sometimes we can live in denial of both of those things. Now, the main thing I want us to always remember is that none of all this that we're processing, none of it is to hinder our relationships, but rather we want to help our relationships be safe, respectful, and mutually beneficial for both people in the relationship. So that's where we are going after the heart of this, and that is using discernment that's based in wisdom. So it's not just our opinion. It's not just like, oh, this person aggravates me sometimes, or, oh, this person annoys me sometimes, or, oh, this person is difficult sometimes. This really is about looking and seeing. Am I pointing my life in the direction of wisdom or foolishness with the daily actions and reactions that I'm participating in? And also this person that I'm in this relationship with, wisdom or foolishness, which direction are they headed? So, Jim, I wanna ask you to continue your thoughts here. Because if we are in a relationship where we feel like it's unhealthy, maybe the relationship is being pointed because of the dynamics between us in the direction of unwise or foolishness. Or maybe it's that we are seeking wisdom, but the other person is consistently seeking what the Bible would say is foolishness. And there is this great tension that now we're like, okay, we're in a relationship where we can't keep going like this. So what else is on your list to suggest to people like, okay, you're in a healthy relationship now. What if I'm Coming into your office and saying that. What advice are you giving me?
- [03:13]
Jim
One of our favorite themes. You'll probably smile when I say this. As you said, what if we get to the point that we can't do this, and normally I'm gonna say, let.
- [03:21]
Lisa Terkers
Me anticipate what you're about to say.
- [03:23]
Jim
Read my mind.
- [03:24]
Lisa Terkers
I'm about to read your Lisa. Is it can't or is it won't?
- [03:28]
Jim
Right? Because it'll.
- [03:29]
Lisa Terkers
You won't keep doing this.
- [03:30]
Jim
It does feel like, can't we start with this? I just can't do this. And then to move to the boundaries, which we've done so much work on, that's what this very series is about. And that is to say, and I won't. I can't, and I won't go on and do this anymore.
- [03:43]
Lisa Terkers
I think that's really crucial because it's at that point where we shift from I can't do this to I won't do this, that that person is positioning themselves to have healthy boundaries and to keep them consistently because they've already decided boundaries are necessary. So I think that distinction is really important.
- [04:06]
Jim
And we've said this. I feel like we're on a game show now, but yet we're not. We want a boundary, a healthy boundary. And a boundary without a consequence is a bad suggestion. And a mere suggestion and just maybe a thought. But to say, this is my boundary, and if you do this, I do this little hamburger, right? The top bun is, here's what is okay with me in this relationship. Bottom bun is, here's what is not okay. And I won't stand for a boundary. You better have a consequence, not a punishment, but a consequence. And if you do this, here's the consequence. That's adulting. That's basically adult living. And the middle piece of meat, that little hamburger, is here's what I'm willing to negotiate. So when someone again shows you who they are, believe them. Believe what you see. We've said, consider what other people in your life think about it. We've talked earlier about community. So if I'm here, we're in community, and we really are, the three of us, to sit and say, hey, this is a sign that I see. What do you think? And you also know this person you've been around, the person I've been in relationship with. Listen, the Bible and the multitude of counselors, there's wisdom, there's safety. What are other people thinking about it or saying? And then just, you know, how safe do I feel right now? People get scared. They get scared. Maybe in their own home, if no one's around, they hear a noise. How safe do I feel? Just be honest with yourself. How safe do I feel currently in this relationship? And then after safety, do I feel like word I made up? Am I in relational claustrophobia? Like, if I'm honest, I just want to get out. I don't feel safe and I feel trapped. Or this person is manipulating and controlling. And then finally on this, as far as a sign, like a check engine light on the dashboard of your car, where am I? As far as I have put forth and clearly stated some boundaries and the person has pushed, manipulated, gone around cyclically, been nice, and then they crossed my boundaries or just simply ignored my boundaries. And remember that with the boundary again, we've said it so many times. It's not to push the other person. I boundaried you. You don't boundary another person. It is to keep me safe and throw in agape love. There my goodness is. My job is to seek the other person's highest good. If I co sign their unhealthy behavior that I'm almost in kind of an accomplice to their own sin. That's a way to look at it. That's not judgy. But yeah, I don't wanna co sign their behavior.
- [06:27]
Lisa Terkers
I think that's really a great point. So one thing that's occurring to me is I'm listening and I said I was gonna bring the experience. Joel, you're bringing the theological depth. Jim, you're bringing all of the education you have as a licensed professional Christian counselor. And I'm bringing the experience of really experiential wisdom, of having gone through this. So I can tell you that one thing that gets me in trouble when I hear you say, you know, really seek the wisdom of other people. Let other people speak into you.
- [07:03]
Jim
Safe people, people you trust who've proven that they are trustworthy to you.
- [07:07]
Lisa Terkers
Yeah, but it's my responsibility to tell that person the truth.
- [07:12]
Jim
That's right.
- [07:13]
Lisa Terkers
And to not leave out crucial details, hoping to minimize what's being done to me or what I'm experiencing in this relationship. And sometimes in my brain I have this really push and pull or like almost tug of war. It's like I want somebody's wisdom, I want them to speak into it. But I also kind of want to protect the integrity of this other person. I don't want to make them feel bad or I don't want this other person if our relationship gets repaired. I don't want this person to think so negatively about that person that then they can no longer support me being in this relationship. And so it's like, I'll say some things and want their wisdom, but if I'm not giving them the honest, full truth, then they can't possibly speak. Speak into the situation that I'm in in the same way and tell me what they're seeing. Joel, I know you mentioned that it's really for the goal of unity here, because that's what God's called us to. So it's not just so that this person and I can get along better. I mean, maybe that's part of it, but it really is. We need to be following God's example of moving toward unity, not toward this frustrated, torn apart place. I mean, love is supposed to bring us together, not rip us apart. But in some unhealthy relationships, it's just not even possible. Right, Right.
- [08:48]
Joel
Yeah. I think one of the important things as we talk about relationships is maybe even take a step back and I'll just be honest and say, sometimes I have this thought in my mind, y'all, that it would be so good to run to the hills, run to the mountains somewhere, and just peace out from everybody and just, you know, be myself, my wife, my kids, and just that's it. I don't have to deal with any other people. And then I'll realize I've got my wife and my kids and I'm dealing with other people, you know, and it's just like it would be. Life would be so easy if I didn't have to do it for people.
- [09:17]
Jim
Right?
- [09:18]
Joel
And yet it dawns on me that one of the basic tenets of our faith, our Christianity, is that God is three in one. We've got the Father, God, the Son, God, the Holy Spirit, that are in perfect unity, that are in perfect relationship. It's so much so that Jesus, In John chapter 17, he prays this prayer. Listen, this is what he says. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me. That they may be divided? No, that they may be one, even as we are one. And so it's talking about this sense of unity. And I like to think of unity, not a type of uniformity where everybody looks like carbon copies of each other, you know, and we're robots walking along. But think of, like a really great musical event that you go to and you've got the sound of the harmonies that are taking place of people singing all of their different parts. And when they all come together, you actually get Something way more magnificent than if you just had one part of the singing happening.
- [10:29]
Jim
And they all start with tuning before they do anything else. And tuning, maybe the first chair violin.
- [10:36]
Joel
Because what happens if somebody's out of tune?
- [10:38]
Jim
Yeah, well, you've got discord, not in accord.
- [10:41]
Joel
Exactly. And so I think that's kind of what's taking place here. And it's important for us to see the unity is really a type of harmony.
- [10:49]
Lisa Terkers
And I love that the Bible gives us where to sing, set our heart, or where to set our mind, where to tune our instruments, or where to attune our relationship to. And that is biblical wisdom. So this isn't just opinions, this isn't just feelings. This is. God is saying, this is wise and this is unwise.
- [11:15]
Joel
So I would even add just a little bit more to this because sometimes we try to run away from some of the hard things that are in the Bible. And I kind of like, no, let's take the whole counsel of the wisdom of scripture. And Jim, you talked about this earlier. Boundaries without consequences are what?
- [11:30]
Jim
Mere suggestion?
- [11:31]
Joel
A mere suggestion. And yet sometimes we have created a picture of God in our minds as a God of suggestions that he's just given us a whole plethora of suggestions. Right. And yet what we find over and over and over in the pages of Scripture is a God who loves us too much in order for him to just be a God of suggestions. But he's a God of covenant, a God of loyalty, a God of consequence. And so the people of Israel, when they sin, they find themselves in the wilderness for 40 years. I mean, and so I think it's important for us to see that this concept of unity and doing whatever it takes in order to maintain it is intimately tied to boundaries and keeping them. Because those consequences are not something purely punitive, but they're actually meant to be exerted in a way that is gracious, that is to call them back into the family. Redemptive, redemptive. But redemption, true, authentic redemption requires a heart change and a change of actions and behavior. And Jim, one of the things that you say that I love is trust is rebuilt by time plus believable behavior. And so all of those things are at work in the family of God.
- [12:44]
Lisa Terkers
And it's not always possible to have unity in our relationships as much as we want that. You know, I believe that we've gotta first make sure that we are at peace with our heart and God's heart. And that unity is always possible because we can make choices, we can't control the Choices of another person. But we can make choices to have that unity between us and God. So, Jim, if I am coming to see you and I'm saying, okay, I am in an unhealthy relationship, what can I do about it?
- [13:20]
Jim
We started again and we kind of come back to this theme. Believe what you see. Seek counsel from other people. Seek pastoral and maybe your small group and others and maybe a close, tight network of friends, seek counsel from them. Professional counseling is not the only show in town. Right to seek counsel from people and say, what do you see? And not just what do you see with this other person? What do you see going on in me? Where do you see me out of congruence, where you say, I know I see this, but it's like, yeah, you're not in congruence with what you see. Find out. The assessment for me as a counselor is so big to go in yourself and talk with, in this case, a professional counselor and say, hear what I see. We've said many times before, you gotta collect the dots, then connect the dots. Then boundaries, sometimes can help you correct the dots and say, here's what I see. Invite that person and say, would you be willing to come in and sit down with them? You don't have to call it marital or relational counseling. Let's get another set of eyes on us and get. And if you go to one counseling session, that's a waste of time and money. It's gonna do very little. Maybe have six sessions and say, let's have someone assess where we are. A manipulating and controlling person has never met a boundary they liked. It is their job, and we're surprised it's their job to cross that boundary. Salespeople are taught in sales, the sell only begins when the customer says, no. We're bored till you say no. Now game on. So a therapist, the most controlling person I've ever seen, cannot hold their breath through about six sessions. Because a good therapist will begin to draw things out, like Proverbs 20, verse 5, and that person will show their hand a little bit. We talk about narcissism. Feed the narcissist. Don't come at it and just control them or confront them. Eventually, in about six sessions, that person will begin to put a card or two on the table. So you're getting some help. And then just, this is so common, so simple. But just ask yourself quietly, in your prayer closet, in your car, as you're driving, am I honoring God, God's word, my relationship with God? Even in a marriage, is this a mirage? Or our marriage, what's going on. It's a picture of the world of Christ and his bride. Sometimes we stop at divorce. Is this right and wrong? And do your own work around that. But the idea of saying, is this relationship honoring to God while you're seeking all the counsel. And sometimes a person quietly says, I don't believe it is.
- [15:45]
Lisa Terkers
I think one important thing that you just said is maybe you're dealing with a narcissist. And then you made the statement, feed the narcissist. Now, I have to tell you, I know exactly what you mean by that statement, because you've taught me in all the many, many, many sessions that we've done, on a personal level, for me, I wouldn't have been able to identify. I mean, sometimes it's like unhealthy patterns, but sometimes there are bigger issues here. And just a few years ago, I didn't know the terms narcissism or I had this little vague sense like, oh, that's somebody who's too into themself, or they're demonstrating pride or whatever. It goes so much deeper than that. I wouldn't have known the term gaslighting, you know, where someone is saying to you, like, you're saying, this guy is blue, and they're saying, no, it's actually.
- [16:40]
Jim
Red, and they know it's blue, and they know the narcissist knows it's blue. They're trying to mess with your mind. They actually know your truth is right.
- [16:48]
Lisa Terkers
And then there's other terms like codependency, enabling. You know, there were so many terms that what I was initially just saying, ah, this really doesn't feel good in a relationship. I didn't have the proper terminology or tools to know how to deal with it. And so I think that's another benefit of going to a counselor and saying, educate me. Like, maybe I can't even within myself determine the severity of this. Is this just a selfish tendency that this person has? Or is this. Am I dealing with something a whole lot more severe here? And obviously, having the counselor say, what do you see in me? You know, do you see some things in me that I need to be aware of? Because it's. It's a little more than just a hard dynamic inside of a relationship.
- [17:42]
Jim
And, Lisa, what I love to do around that is, you know, how people come in and this happens so much. We did our series and do our series called Therapy and Theology. People will come in and go, we've seen you on that. And now I know I can tell my Husband's a narcissist, and they're wanting a vicarious indirect diagnosis by me, which I absolutely, in ethics refuse to do. But what I can do is saying, just like I can open God's word and do this, and Joel does this so well, and you do this so well and say, let's see what the word says. I can say, here are, let's just be at 30,000ft. Here are some of the signs, signs, symptoms, traits of narcissism or borderline personality disorder or other things, or depression or codependency, and say, if you had it like this, and say, here's some of the things I see. What do you relate to? See, a good therapist is not, I believe a good pastor is not gonna say, yep, they're a narcissist. Say, here's some of the signs. What do you see? And the person does their own self discovery to get back. Cause if I do that, then I'm actually being codependent as a therapist doing their work for themselves, saying, here are some of the signs. You go back, don't pathologize or Matthew 7, don't go judge that person. But do be judicious in your mind, be wise and say, seeing these signs, and people will look and say, well, the top five signs of narcissism, they meet four of them and go, how does that impact you? What do you want to do with that? Giving it back. And I believe it's what Jesus did with the woman at the well and so many places. Tell me about that. Tell me. Notice how he was so good. Tell me about your husband. Now, he could have come and said, look, let's just cut to the chase. You're living as a sexually addicted woman. Well, he just didn't do that. I want to be like Jesus there and say, here's some of the things. Tell me about this. Even with a narcissist and feeding the narcissist can be. Tell me how the. Some of your thoughts are on this and what do you think? So you repeat back. So what I'm hearing is you believe this or you do this, or you think this is okay. Well, yeah, they'll put their cards on the table.
- [19:36]
Lisa Terkers
That's really helpful. Well, we promised you more, and I think that we delivered on that. And yet you may still have some more questions, you know, so I do want to remind you we have got a whole series where it's me and Joel and Jim talking. It's called Therapy and Theology. I definitely would recommend that if you have questions around some of these topics that we've talked about, like what is a toxic relationship? And how do I know what narcissism is? And what part does codependency play? And you mentioned gaslighting. What is that? In so many of the episodes, we have covered some of these deeper topics. So if you want to stick your toes into some of those issues, I encourage you listen to some of our previous episodes. But also I do want to encourage you to find wise counsel in your life. I certainly have found. Found that in the two of you. And I'm so grateful that you're part of my everyday life. And so I want you to have that as well. And when you're dealing with some of the patterns of behavior in an unhealthy relationship, that may require more. Just like you would get a medical indoctor, a medical doctor involved if you needed more serious attention, I think it's really wise to get a Christian counselor who's trained in the specific area that you're wondering, is this possibly part of the dynamic that's feeding the unhealth of this relationship? So maybe in listening to us, you'll find that this isn't weird to combine therapy and theology.
- [21:16]
Jim
That's my goal. Seriously, I say to take weird out of therapy. Just take it. Make it normal.
- [21:22]
Lisa Terkers
That's right.
- [21:23]
Jim
Yeah.
- [21:23]
Lisa Terkers
And so we hope that this will be the appetizer, but that you will also find some wise Christian counselor that can speak into whatever dynamic is feeding that unhealth in your relationship. So thank you for joining us. God bless you. And like we said at the beginning of the show, this is not about shoving other people away or labeling other people. Right. This isn't about leaving people. This is about loving people well. And that's what we really want to do. Thank you.