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Therapy and Theology
S11 E4 | "What Does It Mean To Be Relationally Healthy?" With Lysa TerKeurst
00:51:02
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- [00:02]
Shea Hill
Sometimes prayer feels natural, and sometimes it feels like the first thing to slip when life gets heavy. Not because you don't love God, but because your thoughts are racing, your heart is overwhelmed, and you don't even know where to begin. But the beautiful thing about Jesus is that he doesn't ask us to have perfect words. He just invites us to come close. That's why I'm so excited to share a brand new prayer book from Lisa Terkers created to help you pray when you're anxious and distracted or unsure what to say. It's called Come Close to Jesus. And when you give a gift of any amount to Proverbs 31 ministries, you'll help more women receive biblical encouragement right when they need it most. And as a special thank you, we'll send you a copy of Come Close to Jesus. You can find more information using the link in our show notes below. Now onto today's episode. Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology where we help you work through what you walk through. Hi, I'm your host Shea Hill and I'm so grateful that you're joining in today. If there's one thing Lisa Terkeurst has taught us through episodes on this podcast and the countless number of books she's written, it's how to have better relationships. So I knew she was the person I wanted to talk to about relational health in this series. You guys are going to absolutely love this conversation as you listen to this season on Health Check. It's really for adults, but one of the biggest concerns I hear from youth pastors, teachers and especially parents and is this how do I really help the young people in my life who are struggling emotionally and mentally? If that's you, you are not alone. That's why I want to tell you about the Youth Mental Health Coach Program from the American association of Christian Counselors and Light University. It's a Biblically based, clinically excellent training that equips you with practical, real world tools to support youth and their families. You'll learn how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health challenges that young people are facing, including anxiety, depression, digital addiction and emotional regulation. You'll also learn how to respond with care and when to step in and when to refer to a professional. Right now you can receive a full tuition, scholarship and get started for just a one time $54 technology fee. If you're in ministry, education, counseling or simply feel called to help, this training gives you the confidence to make a real difference. Learn more and apply@mentalhealthcoach.org, or you can visit the link in our Show Notes below. And before we jump in, here are a few reminders. Number one, subscribe and receive episodes straight to your inbox by clicking on the link in our Show Notes below. Secondly, we are launching a brand new podcast exclusive segment in 2026 called Listener Mail and it's brought to you by our friends at Compassion International. These segments will include a question pulled from one of our listeners just like you, and an answer from either Lisa, Jim or Dr. Joel. Tune in on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen and make sure you listen all the way through to the end so you don't miss it. And lastly, we want to know how therapy and theology is helping you work through what you walk through. So leave us a review or a comment on YouTube and tell us all about it. Okay, now onto today's conversation.
- [03:27]
Lisa Terkeurst
Lisa, I'm so excited to be here
- [03:29]
Shea Hill
with you today and I've been loving
- [03:31]
Lisa Terkeurst
this season and just these conversations that we're having, I think it's so important as we're not just trying to heal. And I hope that's really what we're doing here on therapy and theology is helping people heal. But a big part of healing is not just moving forward and mending things that maybe felt broken, but really looking at our life holistically in these different areas of health that we've been talking through. And if people have been listening with us over the last couple of episodes, we've done a lot of inner work, I would say, in talking about these different areas of health. I hope it's been reflective and respective and help people really look inward. But I felt like as we were looking at this season it would be amiss to not talk about this category of relational health. And I knew that I wanted to talk to you about this because as I really started to think about what does it mean to be relationally healthy, I just thought about all of the things that you have taught me personally, just us doing life together, but also so many of the things that you've helped so many of us, I guess, accomplish our work on in our relationships with your last couple of books. So I'm so excited that you're here today. And is there anything you want to say before we get started?
- [04:45]
Yeah, no, I'm just really thankful as well, Shea, and I think we'll just jump right in. I, you know, I as we've gone through this series with all of the different types of help that we can pursue, I think as we enter into relational health we have to remember that a relationship can only be as healthy as the two individuals in the relationship. So I wanted to say that up front and I also want to say very clearly, I have been in healthy relationships. I have been in very unhealthy relationships. And I think most of us can identify with that. And then you can run the gamut. So on one end it's like, woo, this is the best relationship ever. Which, when we talk about extremes, that should be a reason for concern, honestly, which I'm very guilty of. I like to talk in extremes. But let's say really good relationship to destructive, really devastating relationship that we would deem unhealthy. So relationships can run on this gamut. So I want us to go right to the middle today. Yeah, we're not going to talk about the most amazing. We're not going to talk about the worst ever. We're going to just right in the middle and assume that the two people coming to a relationship are equally invested in the relationship, that they're being honest and that they're bringing their best, whole, healed, healthy self, or I should say, in the process of being whole, healthy and in the process of healing. But, but basically moving in the right direction.
- [06:22]
Yeah. That's so good. I'm glad that you identified that spectrum and moving from those two extremes, it's not just, you know, you've had some relationships in life that can be destructive or some might even say toxic, and some that have been more healthy. You can run that gamut in that spectrum. In the same relationship, there's, you know, past seasons that you can experience where you were in a severe place of unhealth and then you get great support around you or you're doing work or you're in counseling or you have support around you and then the relationship moves forward to a great place of health and it's flourishing. And I think that, that I say that to hopefully give some people hope today that if they're in a, in a place where a relationship, relationship has some frustrations or like you said, they're kind of in the middle of that spectrum and they're working on things that, with the right support around you and honestly the work of the Lord, that a relationship can get to a really healthy flourishing pace. Not just where you're surviving, but where you're really enjoying each other. So as you talk about moving forward or working on things, what are, what are some things that you would say we should look for or aim for if we are trying to become more relationally healthy?
- [07:33]
Well, Like I said before, our relationships are only going to be as healthy as what the two individuals in the relationship are bringing to the table. And so you and I had an interesting conversation about codependency. And, you know, that's definitely a tendency that both of us have. And we could spend this entire episode talking about the what, when, why, where, how, all of that. Just for those listening, though, codependency, which is quite common for Christian females, is where I need you to be. Okay. So I can feel okay. So how can I make you okay? Because I want to feel okay. Okay. And I know you have another definition that Jim Kress has given us.
- [08:19]
Yes. So Jim has used the definition. We've probably said it before on therapy and theology, that codependency is compassion taken too far. And I feel like that's really a definition that I was able to finally see myself in. Codependency, tendencies of compassion taking too far. Another way that I've said it is when someone's processing, like, a problem with me or there's something going on in their life, and rather than bringing potential solutions to them, like kind of helping them process and troubleshoot, I feel the weight or the burden of needing to be the solution, the sole solution for them. And so I feel like that's how that's kind of, like, taken shape in. In my life. But compassion taken too far. That one has stuck with me for forever. So. Thank you, Jim.
- [09:07]
Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I think those kinds of tendencies, you know, some people, it kind of holds hands with people pleasing. Some people bring people pleasing. Some people bring, like a hero complex. Some people bring, you know, kind of a little bit of an abrupt harshness that is not meant to be harsh, but it's just the way that process and express their feelings, emotions, and thoughts. So whatever it is that you're bringing to the table, I think we have to say, can. Can we just acknowledge that there are some of those things that we need to tend to personally? You know, I can't. I can't expect my partner, my husband, my friends. I can't expect them to fix my codependency. That's inner work that I have to do. Right. And I think when we don't do our inner work, we can slip into what John Gottman calls the four horsemen of a relationship. And I think these are really important. Even if you've heard them before. I feel like it's really important to think about this, because no matter where you fall on those inner, you know, inner things that you're bringing to the table, you and I, it's codependency. I think those things, unchecked and unhealed, will lead us right into these four horsemen, which are very detrimental to relationships. So John Gottman says here they are. One is criticism, two is contempt, three is defensiveness, and four is stonewalling. And just for those who aren't familiar with the four Horsemen of the, of the apocalypse is really what it's saying. And it's basically a metaphor depicting the end times in the New Testament. Okay, so as we describe that, we're thinking of conquest, war, we're thinking of, you know, all of those harder things that, that in a relationship can really tear down, break apart, or even over time, erode the very foundation of good communication and good relational skills between the two people. So I feel like it's really important for us to think through what of these four things. What's something that you need to work on? What's something that I need to work on? Because this is different than like our codependency is inner work. These four things that we're talking about here, that inner work is going to determine how we express the outer feelings and outer communication. So these are four things that need to be worked on inside of a relationship.
- [11:56]
That's so good. Will you say those four things one more time just for people taking notes or wanting to hear them all the time?
- [12:03]
Absolutely. So criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling. And we can go through really quickly and define those if that would be helpful. So with criticism, it's different than offering constructive criticism, which I don't even know that I really like that term because you still have criticism in there. But it's different than coming alongside your partner and saying, are you open to a thought? You know, and then giving them some critique. But the ultimate goal is to encourage them and to be helpful in maybe making it a little bit better or, you know, showing them something that maybe they missed or whatever. But criticism is different than that. Criticism is when you are dismantling that person's well being. And it's not when one fails swoop. It's like these little picks and nags that you do that basically tear at who that person is and how they operate. And so it's not constructive criticism, it's actually destructive criticism. And it can, it can also hold hands with complaining. And oftentimes when we hear a criticism, it's because we're complaining about something that that person did. Now here's the thing that's tricky about this. You may have Very justifiable reasons to complain. You may have very justifiable reasons to criticize. But if that, if that becomes a pattern of how you're talking to your friend, to your parents, to your sibling, to your spouse, whatever, whoever you're in a relationship with, where you find that this criticism can come about, when it becomes the way of communication, that's when we've hit the danger zone.
- [14:06]
Something I've heard you say before is say what you mean, mean what you say, just don't say it mean. Did I get it right? Okay.
- [14:13]
And I got that from again, Jim Kress, who, you know, all of my good therapeutic wisdom comes from him because he's the one that's helped me not be so. To. So codependent and people ple. And all of that. Now, here's the thing with me, this is usually not a struggle. I don't typically have a critical spirit. I can like let people make mistakes or let people do things in a different way than I would do them. And I don't, I don't feel this burning desire to get critical. As a matter of fact, I think I kind of have the opposite of that sometimes. I can be so positive and that hard things are never addressed. Right. And so again, talking about bringing it back to the middle, we don't want to be so positive that hard things aren't addressed, but we don't want to be so critical that we tear down the well being of the other person. We want to bring it to the middle and often to bring it to the middle. Where there's criticism, where there's conflict, where there's chaos. You know, where I'm going here, there's usually a lack of a.
- [15:18]
Boundaries.
- [15:19]
That's right. And so boundaries are going to be woven in through all four of these things that, that we talk about. But criticism is definitely something that we want to watch. And instead of being critical, we need to be better communicators of what is and is, is not okay. What we will and will not accept, what we do and do not have to give and make. Make it more focused on me. For example, like if I'm about to criticize my friend for always showing up late, I know she's not a bad person. I know she doesn't have bad intentions. But instead of me being critical and saying to her, you're always late, you disrespect my time, you know that that's not going to go well. Instead I would be more likely to say, you know, we have two different definitions of what on time means that doesn't make you bad and me good. That doesn't make me bad and you good, but it just means we're different. So how can we come to the table and put some things in place so that this doesn't become an ongoing aggravation in our relationship?
- [16:21]
I'm so glad that you gave that example, Lisa, because what you did, I don't even know if you just realized you did this, but I don't know anyone that would be approached with a, you always do this or you don't respect my time. The word you. You can't help but be put on the defense in that moment. It doesn't matter if maybe even you're aware of this weakness in your life, someone coming at you in accusatory, even if you don't mean it that way, tone or delivery, you can't help but get defensive in that moment. And so turning it to we, or even saying, I like, it's really important to me to be on time. So what can we do that we can still ride together to this event, but make sure that we're on time or, you know, whatever it looks like, but like that. But what you did was just really beautiful because I think sometimes those criticisms come from really accusing people. And instead, I think really better tool, like you said, is boundaries, but also just some better communication tactics. So that's right. Okay, so that's complaining. Let's move on to the next one.
- [17:24]
Okay, so contempt is when things that have aggravated us about that person have gone unchecked. And what started out as like a heated feeling has now become a boiling, toxic frustration that we express in a way that either mocks that other person, or our tone or our words are filled with sarcasm. We are taking the approach now in contempt is very disrespectful. So it's like eye rolling, scoffing, acting disgusted with that person. And instead of just saying, you know, hey, do you mind putting the dishes away? You know, and like, I've noticed this pattern that sometimes you're okay going to bed when the sink is still full of dishes, and since you stay up later than me, I would really appreciate it if you would put your dishes away. So instead of addressing it, you just wake up each morning, you walk in the kitchen and there's dishes in the sink, and you get aggravated and more aggravated and more aggravated and more aggravated to the point where you disrespectfully say to them, you're such a slob. Like, I really cannot stand walk into the kitchen. Every single morning. Like, it's so disrespectful what you do. You are just an absolute slob. Who raised you to be like this or whatever, you know, and it's. It's. It goes beyond criticism. It really starts to get at who this person is, what makes them unique, and turns it into something that's a major character flaw.
- [19:09]
Yeah. Something as you're talking about the dishes. Something that I have learned, actually. My husband taught me this. We've only been married for a little over three years, but this has been one of the savers of not just potential arguments, but I think potential traps of contempt. And I don't always get it right. But in the moment, if I can remember this, it. It has been one of the most valuable things in our marriage. And that is whoever is willing to do it is doing it the right way. And what I mean by that is whoever's willing to vacuum is doing it the right way. Whoever's willing to load the dishwasher is doing it the right way. Now, we don't have children yet, so I don't. I don't know if it will apply to parenting tactics. I can't apply it to that right now. But I can say in this category of household chores, which is so funny how that can actually be a place where this stuff can actually be really sneaky and sneak up. But I actually think it's one of the places where, you know, that contempt grows. You feel underappreciated or you buy someone or you feel disrespected by someone. And so I share that because it has saved me more times than not, because what I really do value is both of us coming together and trying to keep things moving. We're both working. We're both working out. We're both trying to, you know, do all the right things through the week to keep us afloat, but also be healthy. And so there's certain times that I might be tempted to redo something or frustrated that something wasn't done the right way. But this has saved me because really, what I value is us coming together and doing those things. And if I choose to turn towards that complaining or that contempt, it really robs us from, like, what. What is something that's so good, which is, like, shared responsibility and things together. So I don't always get that right. But when I remember, I'm always GL. That. That. That I did.
- [21:01]
Yeah. And I think another way to think of contempt, if you want a very simple definition, is simmering resentments. You know, it's where we start to feel resentful over something about this other person. And instead of addressing it, instead of navigating it in healthy conversation or healthy internal dialogue, whatever that is, or deciding to let it go, whatever it is, forgiveness, all of those things, instead of those ways to cope with a feeling of resentment, we start to really let it simmer inside of us, and then it turns into contempt. Okay, let's go on to the third one. The third one is defensiveness. And this is usually when that person is critical of something that we've done and we feel very unjustly accused or we feel very unjustly addressed, even not just accused, but addressed like, I can't even believe you're bringing this up because it feels so unfair. And so defensiveness is where we play completely innocent and then, you know, put it back on that other person that they're looking at it wrong, seeing it wrong, doing it wrong, addressing it wrong, whatever. But we get. Just get very, very defensive. Now, I have to say I want to put a little caveat in this defensiveness.
- [22:33]
Okay. Okay.
- [22:35]
Because sometimes if you're in a relationship with someone who is constantly critical and you're. They're not putting enough chips in your bank to where you can weather some of those criticisms, you're. You're feeling very bankrupt in that relationship because all you hear is negativity. It's. It's very easy to understand why someone would get defensive. Right. That doesn't make defensiveness right. It just means it's understandable. And so, yeah, I don't know if you have anything you want to say about defensiveness, but. But I've got a couple more things, but I want to hear you, too.
- [23:17]
I think as I think about defensiveness in my life, and I would even say this could be defensiveness to a person directly, or it could be feeling defensive about a relational situation. And maybe I'm quote, unquote, venting or processing to someone else about that situation. But I really think at the core of my defensiveness is feeling misunderstood. If I start to feel out of control of the narrative or their perception of my intentions or, you know, something like that. If I don't feel like we're exactly on the same page, which is going to happen in relationships, rarely do we all have, you know, the same experience with the same perception, the same perspective. Looking back, that's just not always the case that it is. And so I think where I feel misunderstood, that is my greatest propensity to feel defensive and to be defensive. But If I'm feeling misunderstood, it's really a great probably opportunity for me to ask more questions or for me to say, can we circle back about that or can we talk, talk a little bit more about that? Or when you said xyz, I really started to feel, you know, fill in the blank rather than just kind of riling up and like you said, pushing all of the blame on this other person and seeing ourselves as 100% innocent, which again, is kind of identifying those extremes. And I know that anytime we're in an extreme, that's kind of a warning sign that there's something we need to tend to with ourselves.
- [24:48]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Hey everybody. Dr. Joel Mutamali here. I'm pausing today's conversation real quick to tell you something, something very important. One of the biggest concerns I hear from listeners, youth pastors, teachers, and especially parents is how do I actually help the young people in their lives who are struggling mentally and emotionally? If this sounds familiar, I want to share something powerful from our friends at the American association of Christian Counselors and Light University. They've put together the Youth Mental Health Coach Program, a biblically based, clinically excellent training designed to equip you with real world skills to support parents and caregivers navigating youth mental health challenges. This course walks you step by step on how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health struggles that young people are facing today, including anxiety and depression, to digital addiction and emotional regulation. You will also learn how to relate to them, how to respond to them, and when it's necessary to refer them to a professional. The best part, you can claim a full tuition scholarship right now, just pay a one time technology fee of $54 to get started. Whether you're in ministry, a teacher, counseling, or just feel called to help, this training gives you tools and confidence to make a difference in the lives of youth and their families. To learn more and apply, visit Mental Health Coach
- [26:12]
Lisa Terkeurst
that's right. I remember Jim taught me this phrase. And again, if you're wondering who Jim is, Jim Kress, who's often heard on therapy and theology and who helped me get through the hardest 10 years of my life from a therapeutic standpoint. So he said to me, lisa, why don't you get curious, not furious, right? And I think that's really important because what frustrates me the most is if someone says something, I'm worried that if I let that sit there and I don't immediately correct it, then the narrative that they're using to justify whatever attack that they're coming at me with that, if I don't correct their narrative, then there's no hope for them to ever see a different side to this. And so my propensity is. I didn't say that. That's not what I was thinking. That was not my intention. You know, and it's not that I intend to be defensive. It's just that I want to stop the misunderstanding. I want to stop the negative narrative that may not be a proper reflection of the intention that I had in the first place. Right. And so Jim has taught me to slow down and that that's really the secret to defensiveness. It's like a holy pause. Like, slow down and then start asking questions like, well, I heard you just say that you feel like I. Whatever it is, fill in the blank. Can you give me some examples of that? Can you get a little more specific with that? Can you provide more context for that? You know, and so asking questions really gets the other person to unearth what is the true thing beneath the thing, which you and I have also talked about many times in our personal conversations. Because often, whatever someone's coming at you with that causes you to be defensive, it's. It's usually not. It's. It's usually not even that that's their problem. It's a thing beneath the thing. And so if we get curious, not furious, we'll have a much greater chance at really addressing what' really causing the tension. All right, and the last one is stonewalling. And another way to look at stonewalling is just avoiding. Just completely avoiding and trying to seek to control the situation by withdrawing from that relationship. And it often happens when someone is. Is criticized, when someone, you know, feels very defensive, and. And when someone is, you know, like, feeling attacked in any way. So you can see how the other three things that we've talked about can feed right into this reaction of stonewalling, which I understand you. You need sometimes to take a minute to process your thoughts. But what I've learned is really important is to set a time when you can come back together. But stonewalling is taking that need for space to an extreme. And it's really like putting up a stone wall between you and that person, and you give them no. No time frame of how long you need to be quiet. And in your stonewalling, there is a. The motivation is not just to protect yourself, but it's to punish the other person.
- [29:53]
Can we have a little confession time where I share a personal stonewalling moment that I had? Okay, so this was like a Temporary stonewalling. But I think it may help some people, especially if you're an internal processor like I am. I always knew that I needed some time to figure out, especially in conflict, like not just what I want to say, but like, what am I feeling in general and why am I feeling this way? And early on in marriage, my husband and I were living in a two story rental and we were in the kitchen having a conversation that we were obviously not on the same page about. And as an internal processor, I just felt so ill equipped to have this conversation and we weren't on the same page. And I got so worked up or overwhelmed that I just went upstairs. I like left the kitchen. It wasn't even really angry, I wasn't stomping, but I was just noticeably overwhelmed and remove myself from the situation. And then I get up upstairs and I'm thinking, oh no, now I don't know how to re enter this conversation. Is he now like also wondering what to do? He doesn't now know if he's supposed to come upstairs or if I want to be left alone. And I had never done that before. So just a very early on in marriage moment. But I think there's something to learn from that, which is my desire for space or feeling overwhelmed or needing a minute was totally justified. However, maybe leaving in the middle of a conversation without asking, can I take some time without communicating what I needed of him, without acknowledging, I don't think we're on the same page, maybe we should circle back here. Just getting up and leaving was not serving us the best in that moment. And it led to some really healthy discussion. But I was pretty embarrassed when I did that. But I think, you know, with the stonewalling thing, I think for me it really does come back to sometimes I do need some time. I've said it before, like it might take me three to five days, business days to figure out what I feel and then another three to five business days to figure out if I want to do something about it. And so that's now an awareness that I have, which I know we talk a lot about on therapy and theology of how to grow in self awareness. And I, as I think about some of the things we're talking about today, Lisa, the complaining, the contempt, the defensiveness, the stonewalling. A lot of times when someone is coming to us or maybe they're telling us like a experience they're having with us and we're tempted, let's say defensiveness to get defensive or to stonewall if we're able to find it within ourselves as long as this person is like healthy and a person in our life that we value and they're not coming to us in like one of these extreme, toxic or even emotional abusive scenarios. I'm not talking about that. But if they're really coming to us and sharing something with us about an experience they have with us, if we can find it in ourselves to have enough humility to really listen to that experience and to ask more questions, get curious, not furious. That's actually one of the best tools I think I have found for how to grow in self awareness. Because it's people in your inner circle that are telling you, hey, this was my experience with you, and we may be a little bit blind to some of those things, you know. So that's my stonewalling confession and what I've. What I've tried to make progress in, in the meantime. So thanks. That's funny.
- [33:12]
When you were saying three to five days, I'm like, shay, that's an eternity. Like if you and I were in a conflict, I'm gonna like, I'll give you 20 minutes, maybe an hour. But three to five business days, that's pretty hilarious. But
- [33:27]
sometimes I'm just, you know, I just think, and it's a good reminder too, when other people are feeling off or maybe you have like a run in with someone, sometimes it's just not even about you. And I think that's what it is, is I'm. If I'm prone to codependency, if I'm prone to people pleasing, I'm terrified of saying something that I don't mean, especially towards someone else, and then really just realizing, like, I haven't slept well in five nights or like something is off in my body, you know, and so there's other things going on. But maybe if someone's right in front of us, it's tempting to think, oh, they must be the problem, you know. That's right.
- [34:03]
That's right. Well, that's good. Okay. I think it's really important because we've danced around this with each of these four things. We're talking about relational health and we're talking about bringing our best selves into a relationship. But you just said a couple of things that I think are very, very important, which will help us really, I think, make some progress, as in answering the question, what is really bothering me? So, you know, we talked about what is that thing beneath the thing? And then something else you said is, you know, when we're trying to have A relationship. And we have a reaction like, you ran away, then you felt bad about it, but you were trying to figure out what is really bothering me here. Right? And so, in my book, I want to trust you, but I don't. I have a little checklist that might be helpful in asking ourselves what is causing this breakdown or maybe even a breach of trust in our relationship? That these four horsemen, the criticism, the contempt, the defensive, the stonewalling, those are all the reactions, the responses, you know, the. The things that. That are ongoing. It's like, this is our little pattern, and now it's getting unhealthier and unhealthier and unhealthier. But. But where is the break? What's the thing beneath the thing? So I want to ask a couple of these questions. So first of all, is it because of a lack of integrity in this person that we're having a relationship with? Like, is that really the issue here? It's an integrity issue, or is it a competence issue? Like, they've said that they are capable of doing things like, I can fix your car, I can fix the sink, but you already know the last time they tried to fix the car, it didn't work. The last time they tried to fix the sink, it flooded. So, you know, it's like, do they have the ability to rightly figure out if they're competent to do something or not? The second is reliability. So, like, you've told me that you're gonna pick up something at the store, but the 10th time you come home and you've forgotten to pick up something at the store, that's not a mistake, that's a pattern. And it's starting to give me the message of questioning your liability. The next is care and compassion. Is there a lack of care and compassion? You know, is it. Is it a situation where the relationship has gotten kind of dry business, like, and you share something from your heart with the other person, and their response doesn't make you feel cared for, doesn't give you that feeling of compassion that you were looking for? Is it a lack of good judgment? You know, is it. Is it that you're starting to feel like they're. They're not making good calls in the minute here? You know, it's like, lack of good judgment? Is it a lack of humility? Is there pride that's sneaking in? Or. The last one that I put is, is it a lack of stability? You know, some days they're high, some days they're low. Now, I referred to all they issues, but that was Really a setup for us to be able to hear it, because sometimes it's easier to hear and think about these things when it's an issue with other people. But I want us to turn this and ask ourselves this question because we're talking about showing up healthier in our relationships. So is there something that with you, you're bringing to the table? A lack of integrity, a lack of competence, a lack of reliability, a lack of good care and compassion, a lack of good judgment, a lack of humility, and a lack of stability. And I think as we talk about walking into this year and desiring healthy relationships, it's not only important to talk about the reactions, which we already did, the criticism, the contempt, the defensiveness, the stonewalling, but I also think it's good to be proactive. What is something that I can work on this year? Do I need to work on being more reliable? Do I need to work on being a little more caring and compassionate and not just saying, well, that's just the way I'm wired? You know, it's like everybody, yes, we can take compassion too far, but we need to not take it to the opposite extreme, where there's a lack of care and compassion. Is it humility? You know, I know our good friend Dr. Joel Munamali has the book the Hidden Piece that talks all about biblical humility. And that's a really important thing to. For us to pursue and us to think about. Are we having any integrity issues? Are there areas in our life where we're not showing good judgment? You know, am I overspending? Am I overworking? Am I, you know, doing. Doing some things that.
- [39:08]
That.
- [39:09]
That don't show good judgment or integrity. You know, sometimes these small little compromises that we think not that big of a deal can sometimes feed into another person. If they're a rule follower and you make these compromises, then, you know, that can give them the feeling that you are lacking in the level of integrity that they would expect in that relationship. So as we turn these things on us, I'll read the list one more time, Shay, and then I want to hear from you. So are we showing a lack of integrity, competence, reliability, care and compassion? Good judgment. And I'll say one more thing about good judgment. Are we telling the truth, or do we let little white lies come in? Humility and stability.
- [39:57]
Yeah, it's so good. And I'm so glad you shared that list with us, but also identified the four horsemen, because I think what we're doing today, Lisa, is giving people tools and language. Which are very powerful things for the context of relationships. I know so many people that would say they're conflict averse or they hate conflict, or they don't know how to work through conflict in a relationship. And I really think maybe, I mean, no one really likes conflict. If you like conflict or like stirring it up, I would say that's a little bit on the unhealthy side. But I really think when you find yourself in that camp, it could be, I would be curious to see if it's because you feel ill equipped with both tools and language. And I think what you've done today is really identify some tools for people to have better communication in their relationships. And I think when we have better communication in our relationships, it doesn't mean that there won't be misunderstandings or that things will go perfectly. Actually, my counselor has said before that when two believers come together and actually get it right, meaning maybe the way you intended is the way they received it, it's actually kind of a mirac. And so I think having these better tools and having better language will help us have more of those moments where we see the progress we're making and we'll have better conversations through it, which I think is really a great goal to have in the context of relationships. If you're sitting here listening today and you're. You're feeling overwhelmed or frustrated or disappointed about relationships in your life, I. Or a relationship in your life, I can't help but wonder if some of these tools that could lead to better conversations could at least get things moving in the right direction.
- [41:43]
For those of you who have, I want to trust you, but I don't. That list is on page 76. And I would love for you to do one other thing is list these in area of importance for you. So in other words, make it, make this list. Like, this is the highest priority for me in a relationship is that the other person has integrity. And then competence may not be your second thing. Competence may actually, it's still important, but it may fall a little bit lower in your list of priorities. So take that list and rank it so that again, you can have some good conversation and have your, have your friend or your spouse or, you know, whoever also take those words and make their list as well. And then you can see where potential conflicts, conflict can come in. Because if integrity is high on your list, low on their list, then that's a good reason to go to counseling. That's a good reason to go to therapy because you may have, you may have some Serious issues because of the way you value different things that you need in a relationship.
- [42:53]
Yeah. That's so good, Lisa. Okay, one last question I have for you as we wrap up today. We've talked a lot about relational dynamics and maybe potential conversations some of us need to have or even, you know, great conversations to have with a third party, like a therapist. But how can we invite the Lord into our relationships in 2026? What does it look like, whether it's a prayer or a word of encouragement that you have, what does it look like to really not just have better relationships this year, but really inviting the Lord into those relationships and. And inviting spiritual health to be the foundation of our relationships. Getting more healthy.
- [43:33]
Such a good question, Shay. You know, we just went through the glorious time of the year called the Christmas season. It's one of my favorite times of the year. And now, as we enter into this new year, it can be tempting, while we pack away all of our Christmas, to also pack away the awareness of Emmanuel. You know, we hear Emmanuel, God with us. That's what it means, God with us. We hear that a lot during the Christmas season, but not so much throughout the year. And during Christmas, I really challenged myself not to make it such a big global statement that Jesus is with us, but Emmanuel, God with me in this situation. And so inviting God in, inviting the Lord's perspective and the Lord's teaching in, inviting the power of prayer and inviting the power of God's Word in this specific situation. You know, one of my favorite things to do when I'm struggling with an area of life is to go through God's word and find scriptures that apply to that very specific struggle and write those scriptures down and maybe even put them on sticky notes on my mirror so I can look at them in the morning or put them write them down in a journal. So each morning when I do my quiet time, I can pray through them. Because we know when we pray the word of God, we pray the will of God, and the Holy Spirit speaks to us using the language of God's word. So if you feel like, no, I don't really hear from the Lord, well, the more scripture that we memorize, the more you will hear from the Lord, because it'll be a prick in our heart and a scripture that comes to mind. You can also talk about these scriptures, you know, with your friend, with your spouse, whatever. Maybe the two of you can pray them together. So I think doing some of those practical things, and then I already hinted at one, inviting the Lord in is going to require that holy pause.
- [45:27]
Right?
- [45:28]
Because sometimes we look at prayer as a last resort, not as a top priority. And so I think it's really hard to stay angry at someone if the two of you sit down and pray together. Because I like when we're in prayer, and I know sometimes, like, you gotta give each person 20 minutes. That's physically, that's. That's true. Scientifically Speaking, it takes 20 minutes for that feeling of, like, that rush of adrenaline and frustration and overload and all of that. So drink, drink a glass of water. Give yourself 20 minutes. But if the two of you can pray together and let the Jesus in me talk to the Jesus in you, and the Jesus in them talk to the Jesus in you, that is just a really powerful way to invite the Lord in.
- [46:19]
So good, Lisa, thank you so much for all of your wisdom. I can't think of anyone better to teach us today how to love others well without losing the best of who we are. So thank you so much for your time today.
- [46:33]
Shea Hill
And now it's time for listener mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus name. We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 ministries study guide titled Keep holding on as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com Lisa to choose a child to sponsor today. Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener asked, do you believe in generational curses? If so, how can you break them for adult children? Let's hear what Dr. Joel Mutamali has has to say about this question.
- [47:39]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
The conversation around generational curses is often a bit complex. And so I want to give you what I think is normative, but then also some other areas that you should really consider. Often what the Bible talks about in terms of generational curses, I would opt for modern language of generational trauma. The idea in the ancient world was that if a father who led the family decided to go after the gods of the nations and idolatry, it would create a generational impact because the way the father goes is the way the family would have gone and it would have created generations of people who would have been far away from the Lord. And so this is kind of the language of a generational curse is like you have, you know, created a series of impacts that is going to go generationally because of that one kind of singular decision. Now, the reason why I talk about how we, we connect that today to generational trauma is that there are actions, there are things that we do in our life, within our family, within our parenting, within our marriage that absolutely can create trauma. And so how do we break that for our kids? One, through both spiritual, physical and emotional care. So spiritual care, pointing them to the scriptures, pointing them to prayer, even spiritual disciplines like flash fasting and meditation, emotional care, therapy, you know, having a way to process these emotions and the impact of what is actually taking place. And then also just physical, like connecting our physicality and health and walking and exercises outside with the healing process. We want to bring healing and wholeness to the whole of the human body. And the whole of a human is both who they are spiritually, who they are mentally, and who they are physically. Now, there are some cases where you can have a true curse, generational curses, because of dark malevolent powers. Often when this takes place, it's because of the presence of some kind of evil activity, whether it be with Ouija boards or boards or tarot cards or some kind of dark arts practices, Wiccan, things like that. And in light of that, it does require prayer, prayer, fasting, and getting some spiritual guidance along the way from your local pastor. I think things like having your pastor come, pray for you, do anointing, oil, all of that, the laying on, the laying on of the hands of the elders, are all biblical practices that ought to be considered in the presence of these kind of fringe scenarios that absolutely are possible. And yet most of what I've seen today is less in the area of generational curses and more in the area of trauma.
- [50:27]
Shea Hill
Thanks for listening to today's episode. I'd love to personally invite you to help share these therapy and theology episodes with even more listeners by giving a financial gift to Proverbs 31 ministries. Today, therapy and theology offers guidance that women can trust. Not quick opinions and not noise when they their searching. Therapy and theology provides biblical truth that will help them take a steady next step, even in the most uncertain situations. That's the mission behind this work, and I want you to be a part. Go to proverbs31.org givenow to give today.