Dr. Joel Mutamali (8:16)

Yeah, I love that. Lysa, as you were reading each of those, I have this picture in my mind of my grandparents and my mom. My grandparents are missionaries in India. They've been there for over 60 years doing missions work. And I lived in the Chicagoland area and so not easy to get to Chicago, to India. And I didn't have the like the. I think of you Jimbo. I ran into a flight once where I was coming on and there you are with your grandkids, you know, on a flight to Houston. I just love that. And I didn't have that growing up of just going down the street to, you know, my grandparents house, we call them Ama montathia. But you know the thing that I did have that if there's anything, I know for a fact that I'm sitting here today with the two of you because of the faithful prayers of so many people. But my grandparents and my mom, particularly when I was born, I'm the first grandson out of, I think it's 27 grandkids now and then four great grandchildren. But my grandparents used to wake up at about 7am to just pray for their kids and then me. And then as each grandchild would come, they would have to wake up earlier and earlier. And we were in India just a couple months ago and my grandparents were up at 4 in the morning praying for all of their grandkids and all of their great grandchildren. And I just think what an incredible resource Lys to give people words to pray the will of God, because it does feel daunting. I have an early memory of a situation that happened in my family where my mom, I would catch my mom on her knees praying and she would invite us often to pray for this situation that was going on. And I remember starting off always on my knees with her, my siblings and we'd pray and got to the point where things weren't changing. In fact things were getting worse. Wow. And I remember I had this moment, I was like forget this, I'm not doing this anymore. Like this is so useless, futile.

Jim Kress (10:09)

Yeah, why bother?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (10:11)

And my mom just persisted in prayer and it taught me something. Years and years later and sadly that thing never changed. We still carried the real deep pain and heartache of that moment. But you know what did change? It changed me. It changed my mom, it changed our family. It caused deeper dependence in God. And I think sometimes what ends up happening from a theological standpoint is our approach to prayer almost feels like prayer has to be A plus B and I can get God to do C. It's recipe praying.

Jim Kress (10:48)

It's recipe better pop out the kid.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (10:50)

I don't think anybody would say like incantations, but that's kind of what we functionally think about it. But that's not what prayer is. In fact, I want to Go all the way back to the Garden of Eden. And there's this little detail about God that I think is really so fascinating that says in Genesis, chapter three that it was routine for Yahweh to do what with Adam and Eve?

Lysa TerKeurst (11:09)

Walk.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (11:10)

Yes. And when did he walk with them? In the cool of the day, of the evening breeze.

Jim Kress (11:16)

You would appreciate that. Cool breeze.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (11:18)

Oh, man, it was so hot in here earlier today. Yes.

Lysa TerKeurst (11:20)

Joel has been complaining all day about how hot the recording studio is.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (11:25)

It is cool right now. I'm feeling Yahweh with us. I just always think about that detail, the cool of the evening breeze, because it was at the end of the day, and Adam and Eve were tasked with work and vocation. And that Hebrew word for walk has no destination in mind.

Jim Kress (11:40)

Oh, beautiful.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (11:41)

It was a leisurely walk. And so for me, it kind of helps me thinking about what prayer is like. What is prayer? Prayer is walking and talking with God. That was the original story of Eden. And then I find it fascinating because the byproduct of spiritual warfare that takes place in Eden, the serpent waits for Adam and Eve to be isolated from each other and isolated from God. Right. And in the presence of that disconnection and isolation, the serpent comes in and gives this, like, did God really say. We've talked about this already in a previous episode. And so what ends up happening is conflict. And Adam and Eve, in the disconnection with God, they entertain a curious idea that creates all kinds of chaos for them. And so why am I talking about this one is we're talking about fighting for our family and fighting for our family on our knees.

Lysa TerKeurst (12:36)

That's right.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (12:36)

The enemy absolutely hates us. Like, I just want to say it. I want to say it to you very clear. The enemy absolutely hates you. I wrote a new book called the Unseen Battle. And in it we talk about just spiritual warfare. And spiritual warfare is simply the process by which the enemy wants to destroy God's family. Like, how do we describe the story of God? I would describe it this way. This is a gymnizim. It's a very simple statement, but far from simplistic. The story of Scripture is a story of a good God who is the cosmic king of heaven and earth, who is determined to have his family back together. So there's this enemy that wants to keep the family divided from the nuclear family to the family of God, from humanity in general. And there's this passage in Daniel chapter 10 that I think is so fascinating because, honestly, you guys, I'm such a prayer failure. I know you're like Joel, you're a theologian, you study the Bible, you do all these things, write books. Yes. And I feel like an absolute prayer failure. Like, I can do Greek and Hebrew, I can do commentaries. But you asked me to sit down and pray for 10 minutes. I feel like I'm lost. Where do I start? And then I read this passage in Daniel 10 as I was studying about spirit warfare and I was so stunned. Daniel's going through a bunch of stuff, but In Daniel chapter 10, in verse 12, he gets this incredible appearance of this angel. And this is what the angel says to Daniel. Don't be afraid, Daniel, he said to me, for from the first day that you purposed to understand and to humble yourself before your God, your prayers were heard. Amen. I have come because of your prayers. So in other words, if we want supernatural spiritual help, what Daniel 10 explicitly teaches us is the pathway to divine help is actually the path of prayer.

Lysa TerKeurst (14:32)

Hi everyone. Lisa Terkerst here. I'm pausing today's conversation because I want to tell you something important. One of the biggest concerns we hear from our therapy and theology listeners, pastors, teachers, and especially parents and grandparents is that they don't feel equipped to help the young people in their lives who are struggling mentally and emotionally. If that sounds familiar, I want to share something powerful from our friends at the American association of Christian Counselors and Light University. They put together the Youth Mental Health Coach Program, a biblically based, clinically excellent training designed to support parents and caregivers navigating youth mental health challenges. This course walks you step by step through how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health struggles that young people are facing today, including anxiety and depression, to digital addiction and emotional regulation. You will also find how to relate to them, how to respond to them, and when it's necessary to refer them to a professional. The best part, you can claim a full tuition scholarship right now. Just pay a one time technology fee of $54 to get started. Whether you're in ministry, a teacher, counselor, or even feel just called to help, this training gives you tools and and confidence to make a difference in the lives of youth and their families. To learn more and apply, visit mentalhealthcoach.org now let's get back to today's conversation. I love that Joel. That is so.

Jim Kress (16:14)

So that'll preach, won't it?

Lysa TerKeurst (16:16)

It'll absolutely preach. Your story reminds me of a story in my life where my early years were pretty chaotic because of my biological father and eventually he abandoned us and there was A lot of turmoil. So there was one year where my mom really. She was having to work three jobs, and it was just a lot of pressure being a single mom and just working around the clock. So I went to go live with my great grandfather and my two great aunts, and they lived up in Rocky Mount, North Carolina. So shout out to you, Aunt Jane, if you're listening. We just celebrated her 90th birthday.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (16:57)

Oh, my gosh, that's awesome.

Lysa TerKeurst (16:59)

But my great grandfather, every day when I would come home from school, it was the exact same pattern. I would make a sandwich. And usually, okay, don't get grossed out, but this really is delicious. I would make a Miracle Whip banana sandwich on white bread. And. Okay, it was amazing.

Jim Kress (17:17)

Lots of people like that.

Lysa TerKeurst (17:18)

It was amazing.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (17:18)

I want to know who likes that in the comments or wherever it be in the spot. Let me know, because I doubt that. Banana and Miracle Whip.

Lysa TerKeurst (17:25)

Okay, look, there wasn't all the talk about health stuff. I don't know, maybe something's terrible wrong with Miracle Whip these days, but I'm just saying that's what I liked. Okay?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (17:33)

Okay, sis.

Lysa TerKeurst (17:34)

And so every single day, I would make a sandwich. I'd put it on my plate, and then I'd go put my things up. I'd come back, and the sandwich would be gone. And it happened every. Every single day. Eventually, I decided to make two sandwiches because my great grandfather would come in, and every single day, he would take that sandwich. And so then I would have to go say, you know, granddad, did you take my sandwich? And he would always say this. He's like, I did. But real quick, can you come sit in my lap? I have something that I want to do. And I would go and sit in his lap, and he had this huge Bible, or at least in my little girl mind, it was huge, huge. And he would take scriptures and he would pray them out loud over me and over me and over me.

Jim Kress (18:18)

That's powerful.

Lysa TerKeurst (18:19)

And as I look back at my childhood and I look now at my life, I feel like I am living in the answered prayers of my great

Dr. Joel Mutamali (18:30)

grandfather years later, years later.

Lysa TerKeurst (18:33)

And I've been through a lot of stuff in my life, but I just need to know that there was something so powerful about his prayers that I'm still feeling the effects of it all these many, many, many years later. There's another.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (18:47)

I want to just talk because I think how that helps me as a parent right now. Like, I'm a dad right now. We've got young kids, 14, 13, 11, and 6. Sometimes it just feels so daunting. It feels like, do this person actually matter? Because everything that I'm experiencing doesn't feel like it's flowing with the goal of my prayers. So what an encouragement to like, how many years ago was that?

Lysa TerKeurst (19:11)

We're talking, oh, I was probably 12 years old and I'm 56 now, so 44 years.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (19:18)

Yeah, I mean you're living in 44 years as a perspective of a theology of remembrance to remind ourselves that God is not limited in time and space.

Jim Kress (19:27)

Amen.

Lysa TerKeurst (19:28)

And it definitely is a highlight memory. It is a core memory memory of my childhood. You know, talking about praying protection. There's another book, I mean another prayer that I wrote in my book come close to Jesus, based on scripture and I'll just read the first paragraph. It says, jehovah Nissi, God is my banner. I pray for protection over me and my family. Thank you for being our protector. Psalm 18:2 assures me that I am safe with you because you are a strong fortune fortress shielding me and defending me. You keep me from harm by watching over my comings and goings. And you are faithful to deliver me from evil people and guard me from the enemy. Jim, I know you have a teaching from Nehemiah that is so incredibly powerful and I would love for you to walk us through that.

Jim Kress (20:20)

Yeah, I'd love to. I'm mindful as just an overarching theme above this Jesus, the word of God tells us is ever interceding. He is praying for us. Even if you don't know, don't feel like it. Jesus prays for us, Satan prays upon us. P R E Y S so in that is to look. And some people say, you know, why pray? Well, I'm soon to be 64 years old and what I've learned is and this gets missed and then we'll go to Nehemiah is I will pray because Jesus told me to. And I need all these other reasons because he told me to, literally commanded me to and because he did it. And think about this recipe theology or the lack thereof of how many times he prayed. O Jerusalem, O Jerusalem man, I would gather you like a mother hen. You said no, his disciples, I mean really in the garden or outside the garden, could you just watch him pray? So a lot of that stuff is to take people hands if you're praying for them. And I think this is a lot of what Nehemiah will model for us. And to say, I'm praying because you've commanded me to, because you're doing it all the time. Does prayer change things? No. But I'll tell you what I know at 64, prayer changes me. When I pray the names of my family members, kids and grandkids, spouses, I'm praying over them and praying. And for me, from Revelation, we've all talked about this. I pray, Lord, I pray that you would cover them, which they're already covered with the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony and confessing Jesus as Lord. I don't pray applying the blood. I pray relying on the blood. It's already covered. But I want to speak the name. And many times I've heard you say during times of deep crisis, you just pray the name of Jesus. So there's power in the name of Jesus. Leave the results to God. But it changes me to say I feel like I just love calling my kids and my wife and grandchildren's name out. Father Nehemiah. This is found in chapter 10. And the setting is just simply, the walls of Jerusalem are knocked down, the gates have been destroyed by fire. He's over in Persia with King Artaxerxes. He gets bad news like Jerusalem is in trouble right now, which is where we've all been so many of your books lately. Talk about your 9 11. Many of you have a 9 11. And when you get bad news, there's many. There are many paths to take. Fight, flight, you could freeze, you could fawn people please or whatever. Here's what Nehemiah did. And I want you to slow down when you're. When you have time to slow down and read God's word in Nehemiah 1, because the words are incredible. And if you go through it quickly, you won't see it. When he got the bad news, first thing it says he did was he sat down. And there's a whole thought. And if you Google and read more about that, just to sit down without getting up and running around. Second thing he did is he cried. He wept. So the idea of sitting down and not going into fight or flight, and then secondly, he began to weep over the destruction of what had gone on in home in Jerusalem. Third thing he did is mourning. Do you know you can mourn without weeping? And Lord knows you can weep without mourning. But he mourned all that was going on. See, if you don't grieve, the pain won't leave. Grief is our friend. It's a canoe in a river guiding you through mourning. It doesn't mean that you're just in futility. He sat down, he wept, he mourned. And then he fasted. By the way, the text will reveal, and scholars tell us it's probably three to four months before he is the cupbearer to the king. Went in to allow himself to look vulnerable before the king. So probably three to four months. Some say longer. He's doing all these things. He's not rushing out to do anything else. Then also, of course, he prayed. He just called out to the God of heaven. I called out to you, O God of heaven. You know what he does? He does what my grandkids do. He said, I asked God that you. Why would you ask God this? You would open your eyes and open your ears, and my grandkids will come. Granddaddy, put that phone down. You said you would wrestle with us, as we call it. You would watch me play a video game. They call me to account. So he says, God, would you hear me? Would you see me? We get to do that. And then number six, he humbled himself as he did this in the sense that in the old language, I beseech you, God, please. He's humbling himself and not grandstanding. And then number seven, he confesses. You know what he does, though? He says he confesses his sins, the Jews sins. But he said, I confess the sins of my fathers. He looks back up generational lines. And then he adds this line. You don't hear it much. The we have acted very corruptly against you. Not well, I slipped, made a mistake. But, God, we have acted very corruptly against you. And then confession should always precede repentance. And he says, we repent. He says, God said, you told us if we don't keep your commandments, you'd scatter us. Which God did. But then these four words. And the four words are, when I think of prayer, I think of two sets of four words. One is, thy will be done. The other is from Nehemiah. One God said this. But if you return, and that's repentance to stop doing what you're doing and return and move in a new direction. Two more. And this is what happens. He says, then he asked God for success before any of the modern success writers. God grant me success today because he wants to go rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. And then he says, I ask for three favor in the sight of the king, because he's fixing to go in there and ask the king. Those are modeled in God's word. I don't want to do those y' all as a recipe. Do all those 10 things like obeying the 10 commandments. And you get this output. But my heart is there saying, lord, I can do those things. Leave the results to God.

Lysa TerKeurst (25:59)

It reminds me of a scripture that I read recently. I've been reading in First Corinthians, and I got to chapter four, and. And I was reading, and all of a sudden it says, we are servants of Christ and stewards of the mystery of God. And then it goes on in verse two to say, and let us be found faithful.

Jim Kress (26:19)

Amen.

Lysa TerKeurst (26:20)

And so I think sometimes we can spend so much time fighting for our family, trying to come up with strategies, trying to come up with the right conversations, trying to, you know, put things in place to soften some of the consequences of some of the people's choices. Oh, yeah, you know, draw boundaries. Boundaries are healthy. We already talked about that. But I think sometimes it's like we're doing a lot. But ultimately we have to leave room for the mystery of God because we can't dictate outcomes. That is true. We can't control people. We can't fix things that are beyond our ability to.

Jim Kress (26:58)

I've actually tried to do that a lot of times. Confession times. Yeah, I've tried to control everything.

Lysa TerKeurst (27:02)

I think we all have. Right. Because few days, come, shine your halo over there. But you know what we don't trust. We try to control. And sometimes control is fear disguised as strength. Like, I'm afraid, but I want to appear like I've still got it all together. And so I. Control in the face of.

Jim Kress (27:22)

The Lord has just told me in a word that you ought to write a book about what we can't trust. We try to control. I just feel that's a prophetic word. Would you consider. Would you pray about that?

Lysa TerKeurst (27:31)

Yes. That may or may not be coming. Honestly, yes. But I think, like, we're doing so much and we're thinking so much and we're spiraling so much and we're processing so much. But I just think, can we just sometimes leave room for the mystery of God? Sit in the midst of the unknown outcomes? The prayers that we deem have not yet been answered or answered in the way that we thought they should be. And all of our desires for things to shift, morph, change, transform, all of that. Could we just leave room for the mystery of God and sit and then let us be found, faithful, Getting into God's word, letting God's word get into us. And when we pray the word of God, we pray, pray the will of God. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Shea Hill (28:24)

And now it's time for listener mail. Where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from from poverty in Jesus name. We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 ministries study guide titled Keep holding on as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com Lisa to choose a child to sponsor today. Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener says, I'm engaged. I pray a lot about the relationship I have, and I have felt God's peace. But at the same time, I feel this hesitation and sometimes icky feeling in my gut. It's been two years and I keep looking for what's wrong. I don't know if I'm just uncomfortable with the, the attention and affection or if something is really wrong. How can I discern how to move forward? Now I'm going to pass it off to Dr. Joel Mutamali to answer this question.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (29:47)

You know, let me just start by saying I'm just empathetic to what you're experiencing right now. I personally know that feeling where you feel like everything is going in a certain direction and you're praying and still there's an unsettledness about your heart. And I actually think that the word discernment is probably the most important word that's being used here. There's an incredible quote by Charles Spurgeon where Spurgeon says that discernment isn't simply the determination of right and wrong. It's actually determining between right and almost right. And so I like to think of discernment almost, almost like an act of surgery. You have to assess and see what is true, what is right, what is honorable, what is good, and then look for those things that present as good, that present as helpful, but underneath it, there might be something that's off that is not submitted to the Lord, that might have hints of pride or arrogance or selfish ambition, really any of the vices of the flesh that Paul talks about. Then in the middle, the midst of that, what we want to do is be careful that we don't throw the baby out with the bath water, per se, and we discern and we surgically attempt to remove those things that are creating that chaos and creating that confusion. And so, you know, my encouragement to you would be to consistently bring this, like you're already doing in prayer, bring in some wise counsel. I always say, suggest having a couple girlfriends or a couple guys in your life that if you're a guy that love Jesus more than they love you, and I mean that order the way that I said it, like they love Jesus more than they love you, so they can consistently call you up to the character and to the life of King Jesus. And I don't think this is something that you just solve through perfection. I think it's something that has to be processed through discernment. Praying for you friend.

Shea Hill (31:53)

When your thoughts are racing and nothing feels clear, you need something solid to hold onto. Because of you, another woman can find that steadiness in biblical truth found in resources like therapy and theology. Your special financial gift today helps place God's word into women's hands so they can be guided by truth, not fear. Give now by going to proverbs31.org givenow or simply click the link in our show notes below.