← Therapy and Theology
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- [00:00]
Lisa Terkeurst
Foreign this is Lisa Terkeurst and you're listening to Therapy and Theology. Before we get into today's conversation, I'd like to thank the American association of Christian Counselors for sponsoring season seven of Therapy and Theology. I love the work that my friends and I get to do through this podcast that allows for therapeutic wisdom and deep theological insights to be accessible to anyone from from anywhere. But we're really only able to scratch the surface. I know there are thousands of individual needs represented in our listeners as they navigate their own life and relationships, and that's why I always love recommending the American association of Christian Counselors. They know asking for help is hard, but finding help shouldn't be. They created the Mental Health Coach Training Program to equip each you to know how to respond when a friend comes to you for help. Featuring some of the world's leading mental health and ministry leaders, this online video based mental health Coach training program teaches you how to talk through the tough issues like what we talk about here on Therapy and Theology and how to respond to them. Visit mentalhealthcoach.org to learn how you can sign up for their Mental Health Coach Program or visit the link in the show notes to learn more. When you've been hurt or experienced real heartbreak or betrayal, it's so hard then to not fall into thought spirals. Now let me explain what I mean by thought spirals. I will have a fear usually like I'll see something and I'll fear like oh no. And I can instantly jump to worst case scenario. I'm an expert at worst case scenario. If you ever have a moment where you want to know what is the worst case scenario, I'm your girl. Call me. I can think of a worst case scenario like that so quickly now. I used to be able to control jumping to worst case scenarios by saying to myself, worst case scenarios don't usually happen, Lisa. You know, like just because they didn't return your phone call doesn't mean they've been in a horrific car accident, right? But I have experienced so many worst case scenarios actually happening in the past 10 years when my family has gone through so much hurt and heartbreak that now I cannot control my thought spirals by saying most of the time worst case scenarios don't happen because I know that they do. Maybe you have been in the same situation. One night I was writing about this in my journal and I had no idea that my thought spirals were really an attempt to be in control. I'm not a controlling person. Like I don't think you would interact with me and go, man, she's controlling, right?
- [03:02]
Jim Kress
Accepting card games.
- [03:03]
Lisa Terkeurst
Accepting card games.
- [03:04]
Joel
I don't know that that's controlling. It's just. She's winning.
- [03:07]
Jim Kress
Well, okay.
- [03:08]
Lisa Terkeurst
Except I'm good, actually. Maybe I need to refer on humility.
- [03:13]
Joel
Maybe.
- [03:14]
Lisa Terkeurst
Okay. But I never connected control and trust issues. Never did. One night, as I was really trying to get to what is causing all of these thought spirals, I wrote down in my journal, what I don't trust, I try to control.
- [03:32]
Jim Kress
Yeah.
- [03:33]
Lisa Terkeurst
Wow. And so I want to read you apart from my book. I want to trust you, but I don't. It doesn't sound so bad to try to control out of control situations, right? I mean, don't we all want to prevent bad things from happening as much as we can? Yes. But where I can slip into unhealthy patterns is trying to prevent what is beyond my ability to control. After all, I think if I can prevent bad things from happening, then I don't have to rely on or trust anyone else. I don't have to participate in that terrifying unknown of people making choices that mess everything up or put everything at risk. And I don't have to participate in that sometimes terrifyingly unknown of trusting God who allows things that are so very confusing at best and devastating at worst. But my desire to control, it's an illusion or possibly a delusion. It's presumptuous of me and so very prideful to think I know what's best. And yet the most tender places of my heart, the ones that shake with fear because I can't stand the thought of another awful thing being added to my family story, just keep saying, please try, Lisa, because maybe this time you are the one who can possibly hold it all together. And so trust. I went on to write, it kind of feels like I'm betraying my best efforts to keep it all together while others aren't paying nearly enough attention to these things. So what I don't trust, I will try to control. And I don't physically try to control people. But here's what can so easily happen to me. I want to be able to think about all of the things that I can say to help bring the narrative back to what I think is best. And I want to make sure that people know, like, if you make this decision, I can see a train wreck happening down here. I can see the train barreling towards you. And I'm not sure that you can see the train barreling towards you. And if the train hits you, it's also going to impact me. And if the train hits you, it's also going to impact me. And so it's not necessarily that I want to control what you do. I just want to control the things that feel out of control so that I can bring some sense of peace and security back into my life, which.
- [06:10]
Jim Kress
I guess would be controlling, to use a term, the world. But you're really trying to control yourself. And I would want to honor for a moment, no matter what your motive or modus operandi is, you're really trying to keep yourself safe, don't you think? Even if you say it's unhealthy at one level, I watched that whole thing go out, and then it came right back to you. I heard you say you want to keep yourself safe.
- [06:33]
Lisa Terkeurst
I want to keep myself safe.
- [06:34]
Jim Kress
Yeah.
- [06:34]
Lisa Terkeurst
That's my whole motivation. But where I get in trouble is, and oftentimes my thought spirals and won't land, is because I'm trying to control something that is completely out of my control. I will thought spiral around the decisions that you're making. I cannot control your decisions. I can't control what you do, what you don't do. But if what you're doing is impacting me, then somehow I feel like my brain kind of tricks, like, tricks myself into believing. No, no, There is something I can say. There is something I can do. There is something I can show him. There is something, a solution that I could possibly find that would make him finally wake up and go, wait, I'm making the wrong decisions here.
- [07:20]
Jim Kress
And you're going to feel good in the moment again, back to that brain chemistry, because you're going to be firing dopamine, likely to fire cortisol, the stress hormone in your body. There is a real sense of, like, what is a practical thing in the brain, soul, body of this is you will feel energized. I mean, as I was watching you right there, you didn't look bored. It was like, I can do this. And I felt even the level vocally pitch up. And it's like in that moment, I'm firing quite a bit of neurochemistry that I will get a buzz off of. Right? It's very practical in the body.
- [07:52]
Lisa Terkeurst
I don't know. I don't know if I feel a buzz off of it. But you're probably right. It's like some kind of energy, and I don't know what to do with this energy. And a lot of times it happens late at night. And so I will want to process with someone Late at night. You know, I'm married now to an amazing man named Chaz. But he gets super tired at about 9pm at night. And if I.
- [08:18]
Joel
And he's got the spiritual gift of napping, Lise.
- [08:21]
Lisa Terkeurst
I'll tell you what, he has a spiritual gap. Chas can nap at any time. He is 100%. And then he's zero. And so at night, sometimes I'll just be like, oh, no. Like, I just thought of something and I'll start that spiral. I've got to control this. Because if I don't control this, if I don't, like, this is out of control. What can I do? What can I do? What can I do? And I will think in my mind, if we can just talk about it, then I can just verbally process it, get it all out, then it's going to fix things. But what often happens is he'll go, honey, that is not a 9pm at night discussion. Let's do it in the morning. Let's have that talk in the morning. And I'm thinking, that's nice, because you're instantly going to fall asleep. But then I'm gonna be sitting here and I'm gonna be thought spiraling all night long. And so recently we had one of these moments and I'm like, no, it is a 9pm Conversation. You need to rally. You need to wake up because we gotta talk about this. We gotta talk about this. And things didn't go well because obviously that late at night, nothing is gonna be solved. And actually, my thought spiral. Inviting someone into my thought spiral often doesn't solve the issue. Because what's happening is I want to feel safe. That's what I want to feel safe. But instead of me verbalizing, I'm scared, I'm not safe, I will say, let's keep talking about it. If we keep talking about it, I know we're going to land. We're going to land. We're going to land. And my thought spiral just keeps going on and on and on. And it frustrates whoever I'm having a conversation with. But not only that, it exhausts me. Because ultimately I come to the same conclusion every time, which is I cannot control what is outside of my ability to control.
- [10:01]
Jim Kress
Okay. We interrupt this program for the following question. What did you do in that season? We talked about it. But when you were alone, and I know there would be a time you maybe not be able to reach a friend. I noticed, by the way, caveat that you're trying melatonin in the body. You're trying to go to sleep. You might have been stimulated. You do like to play card games and things. And you're coming there with Chaz. I want to see Chaz next time I'm seeing him, see Chaz. You need to put the words for me in there. Hey, 9:00 is not the time. Because truly in health, he would say for me, because you're like, oh, it's the right time for me. What did you do in a season when there was no one right there with you and you had the same thoughts spiraling, you had to do something with it?
- [10:42]
Lisa Terkeurst
Well, I had to get my thoughts out. And because I didn't have someone else to talk and verbally process it with, I would often fill my journal up with thoughts.
- [10:52]
Jim Kress
Option one.
- [10:53]
Lisa Terkeurst
But now I feel like I want deeply to respect that 9pm is not a great time of night to have my thought spirals and have an unrealistic expectation of Chaz to like want to talk about this for hours and hours and hours. Because it's not even that I'm trying to get to a solution. Yeah, I just want to.
- [11:14]
Jim Kress
You just want to process.
- [11:15]
Lisa Terkeurst
I want to process it over and over and over and over. And what I'm really looking for is I'm safe. But it's not another person telling me I'm safe. I have to believe I'm safe for myself. And that's where the thought spiral just nobody else can fix it. Like nobody else can tell me that I'm safe enough. I have to believe that for myself. And so I've learned that over processing with someone else. Processing is good, but over processing, especially late at night, it's not going to fix it.
- [11:45]
Jim Kress
It doesn't. Are you saying that tangibly, it also doesn't even help you if you over processed it with Chaz. Is there an element that. That it would actually not help you?
- [11:54]
Lisa Terkeurst
Well, it helps me because I feel like then someone else can be invited into the stress I feel and commiserate.
- [12:00]
Jim Kress
With me, share that cortisol right away.
- [12:04]
Lisa Terkeurst
But I had an epiphany the other day.
- [12:06]
Jim Kress
Oh, I can't wait.
- [12:07]
Lisa Terkeurst
And this was really, really helpful when I'm having those thought spirals. I have realized if I acknowledge what worst case scenario is and I acknowledge what best case scenario is, and I literally say out loud to myself right now, this moment, it's not worst case scenario, it's not best case scenario. It's in the middle. So I gotta bring my thoughts into the middle. And when I bring my thoughts into the middle, I'll say, is there something within my control I can do right now? Or add to my to do list tomorrow? If there is, write it down. If there's not, that's where I have to literally physically close my eyes and mentally hand this over to the Lord.
- [12:51]
Jim Kress
As in surrender.
- [12:52]
Lisa Terkeurst
As in surrender.
- [12:53]
Jim Kress
That's a good word.
- [12:55]
Lisa Terkeurst
I cannot control what this person says. I cannot control what this person does. I cannot control if this person gets elected or that person gets elected. I cannot control whatever the diagnosis is about to be. I cannot control my adult kids and what they do and what they don't do and what they think and what they don't think and how they act and how they don't act like. I cannot control those things. So what is it that I can do right now, in this minute? And bringing my thoughts back to this moment helps me so much because it helps me not run too far into the future or run too far into, like, hoping for the best, but dreading the worst, but rather acknowledging what is this moment, what can I do, and what is out of my control to do. And that has helped me a lot.
- [13:47]
Jim Kress
Well, you just saved money. Truthfully, not being silly here at all. There is a book, actually, with this title. Don't worry about it. It's called Self Therapy. I watched you just practice Nehemiah 5, 7. Just let it go. It's God's word. And so I took counsel with myself. People are missing. I mentor and counsel so many people. You've got to get off of just being dependent on the therapist. Take counsel with yourself. What is your. I am amazed living there. I thought you found your therapist. It is not Jim Kress, it's you. Therapeuo, right? In Greek, I heal then 2 Corinthians 10, 4, 5. There can be strongholds of thought spirals. Why not? And I demolish those. It's not Jesus coming to demolish those. I'm. It's not Chaz. By taking every thought. How many. I literally sit there and watch this. I hope our viewers and our listeners caught that, that you were taking literally every. I watched you name them, every thought captive. And I know because of you and your faith, and you made them obedient to Christ, who is the way, the truth and the life. And you said you landed the plane, said thought. Here you are, like me, taking this pen and laying it on the word of God and saying, this is what's true. And then I watched you, even as you're on this podcast, self regulate. You may not have Caught that in yourself. But as you were doing is like, this is this, this is this. Here's the messy middle. Here's what's true. Here's what I can control. And that's why, I mean, saving money in therapy, there are a lot of people, I want people out of the therapy office once they've done their work, to do self therapy. And just go with yourself and tell yourself the truth, especially late at night. Remember one last thing. The body again is trying to go unconscious. It needs to defrag the hard drive. It needs to let go of control. We go unconscious literally when we fall asleep. So that's where a lot of people at night rise up and they're being able to control things because their body that keeps the score is saying, let go, go off to sleep. And it mimics our coming death. One day, the old timers all knew that I will yield and let go and go off into the un, or subconscious. Just want to affirm you, I watched you do that. And if you do it, I can do it. And I do, and Joel can do it, and he does. And every viewer and listener can start practicing that counsel with oneself.
- [16:04]
Lisa Terkeurst
Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
- [16:06]
Jim Kress
Yeah, I saw it happen.
- [16:07]
Lisa Terkeurst
Joel, I want you to comment on this, but I do want to give you a second thought that has really helped me. And it comes from our good friend Leslie burning. And once I bring my thoughts back to the middle and I say, okay, this is what I can do in this present moment. This is what I cannot do in this present moment. The second layer of question is, okay, what is my problem with their problem?
- [16:38]
Jim Kress
Isn't that a great question?
- [16:39]
Lisa Terkeurst
It's such a good question. And it comes straight from Leslie Bernick. And it has helped me so much. So, in other words, I can't control the decisions that they make. So I determine that's a problem. That's their problem. They are making these choices, but I can control what is my problem with their problem. And that gives me legs for something that I can put action to. Not trying to control another person, but assessing what I can do to bring a sense of control back to my world, to bring a sense of safety back to my world. And it's a much more productive place for my thoughts to go. What is my problem with their problem?
- [17:19]
Jim Kress
And you're moving away. You know, I'm full of metaphors and maybe other things too, but moving away from the magnifying glass of someone else's thing, whatever that is, to the mirror and to look and God's word Itself is a mirror and say, what is going on for me? And there's Proverbs 25. Is it the purposes in a person's heart, my goodness, are deep waters. And a person of understanding goes down and draws them out. And I think one can be one's own person of understanding to say, what's my problem with their problem? And what's going. Let me get the focus off them. Some of you know this experience of adult children, Joel's children are not adults yet. And you think, you know, parenting and all this when they were younger and they might start rebelling or things, and then you realize how not powerful you are. And then they start having their own children and you want to go, I wouldn't do it. And it's that surrender around that. But the idea, so what does it mean if one of your kids rebelled or started going astray? I love to encourage people as I encourage myself. Jimbo, what's going on in you? And I'm curious with myself and gentle. What's this hitting in you, buddy? Counseling myself. So as you do that, even as you're getting ready to go off to sleep or another time or Leslie's words is, I just want to put the magnifying glass. It scares me what these people are doing. Matter of fact, I don't think that is wise. That's nothing wrong with that. But I want to say, what is this hitting in me? And I think that's where contemplation comes in, to really contemplate what's going on in my internal world.
- [18:51]
Joel
That's so good. You know, Jim, you mentioned Second Corinthians 10:5. You know, Lisa, as I'm thinking through your story and kind of just that example, I do have one question before I get into this. When you say you take your thoughts and you bring them back to the middle, how would you like just simply in a sentence, maybe define what is the middle?
- [19:10]
Lisa Terkeurst
Okay, it's not best case scenario, it's not worst case scenario, but it's, it's landing somewhere in between. Like, yeah, this is going to be hard, but maybe it's not going to be catastrophic. Or yes, this, this could have a wonderful outcome, but even that wonderful outcome could come with challenges. So just bringing it back to more of a realistic, like, it's not going to be perfect and it's not going to be catastrophic. It's going to be somewhere in between.
- [19:38]
Jim Kress
There must be mystery. Don't you hear that, Joel? That she has to land in the middle here, the messy middle. The middle with some mystery, which even your body language, to me, looks like you're not trying to control. You're like, it's not this. It's not that I have to be here. But you don't. You're not describing a concrete place because there is a bit of concrete here or concrete there, but here, it's like embracing the mystery of, like. I don't know, I wonder if faith rises up at that moment.
- [20:01]
Lisa Terkeurst
Yeah.
- [20:01]
Joel
I'm going to say some stuff here. And, you know, as a. I guess as a theologian, sometimes I feel like I get tasked. Like, I probably am not gonna say the thing that you want to hear.
- [20:11]
Lisa Terkeurst
I know.
- [20:13]
Jim Kress
Right now. Coming right now.
- [20:14]
Joel
But I'm just gonna try to share what the text says.
- [20:18]
Lisa Terkeurst
Yes. You have permission to speak truth into the depths of my overthinking soul.
- [20:23]
Joel
Well, it's for you, it's for me, it's for Jim, it's really for all of us. And I think what you just described there, which this is all happening in real time. So, you know, I'm gonna process it with my friends here. Bringing your thoughts and bringing them back into the middle is actually the exercise of 2 Corinthians 10, 5. And what Paul says is. And every proud thing. The Greek word here is hypsoma. It has to do with height or lofty ideas. That's what pride is. Pride is taking us to the heights and suggesting to us that from the heights we can see incredibly clear. But actually what it's doing is it's taking us to the heights that it can push us off the cliff. Wow.
- [21:05]
Jim Kress
Right.
- [21:05]
Joel
And we will see clearly, but we're going to see the ground come crashing into our faces.
- [21:08]
Lisa Terkeurst
Wow.
- [21:09]
Joel
Right. So look at the language. And every proud thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God. And then this is kind of the operative phrase here. We take every thought captive, period. No, there's no truth.
- [21:25]
Jim Kress
That's where secular psychology stops. Nothing against it, they do. Thought stopping, that's taught.
- [21:29]
Joel
And then that's it. There's a period there. There's no period.
- [21:31]
Jim Kress
That's right.
- [21:32]
Joel
Right. There's a few more words right after that. Well, what is the capt. And this is, I think, what you're talking about, Jim, with the mystery. And Lysa, what you're saying, bring this thought to the middle, to the obedience, obedient to Christ. I mean, that's it.
- [21:46]
Lisa Terkeurst
Yeah.
- [21:46]
Joel
And so, you know, I want to actually pick up earlier because the pericope or the section should probably start in verse three. For although we live in the flesh. So here's an honest admission that we are fleshly people. We live in the flesh. So although we live in the flesh, we don't wage war according to the flesh, since the weapons of our warfare are not the flesh, but are powerful through God. For the demolition of strongholds, we demolish arguments and every proud thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ. The historical, social context. If you were in the city of Corinth and you're, you know, with the Corinthians in this church, and you're hearing this letter being read out loud in. Instantly you're thinking about your history of warfare. Instantly, you're thinking about siege warfare, and you're thinking, like, wait a minute. How do we take things captive? The only way we can take things captive is to deal with the watchtowers around and the cannons, right? So there's this sense that in order to even get to the captivity of thoughts, we have to deal with the things that are offensively attacking against us. And I think what you did for us in that example is you actually help us to determine the difference between what I want to see suggests biblically and theologically is control, which is only actually able to be done by God, and stewardship, which is given to us.
- [23:16]
Jim Kress
So good, beautiful wording.
- [23:18]
Joel
So what do I mean? Okay, Control is power, authority, and the ability to exercise that power and authority in any way that you wish and to have the outcome that you desire.
- [23:31]
Jim Kress
Almost like playing God, maybe.
- [23:32]
Joel
I mean, it is. That's exactly. That's exactly what it is.
- [23:36]
Lisa Terkeurst
Well, I mean, when I'm having my thought spirals, I'm not like, oh, I want to play God. Except I do want outcomes that I want, which is. Which is God.
- [23:47]
Joel
Okay, so again, I'm just trying to be honest with work.
- [23:51]
Lisa Terkeurst
I'm just gonna reach down and rub my toes really quick.
- [23:54]
Jim Kress
Is that grounding you? Is that helping you get back in?
- [23:56]
Lisa Terkeurst
I don't know. It's just that Joel keeps stepping on them. So I'm not out of my physical bag. Emotionally, you're physically.
- [24:02]
Jim Kress
Oh, for the listeners who cannot see blessing.
- [24:06]
Joel
Oh, that was.
- [24:07]
Jim Kress
And there's room in this. Obviously, we're laughing as friends here and talking as we often do. I have to leave room for me. And what Lisa's saying of the subconscious. I'm not sitting there thinking, I now seize control of the scepter and the throne, the crown. Nevertheless, as I quiet my soul, I think, yeah, I was trying to do something that Might be God's doing, not mine. And then I can repent gently and say, lord, Job did it. My ears have seen you, heard of you, heard of you. Now my eyes, I've seen you. Yeah. I go, yeah, God, I did it again. He just. Papa, Father smiles. You think that's breaking news to me? I was trying to control. I didn't even know I was doing it.
- [24:46]
Joel
So the thing that I think that 2nd Corinthians 10:5 is doing for us, and at least as you're joking about, you know, getting our feet kind of stepped on, is it is inviting us into an honest assessment inventory. So what is the assessment inventory? What are the things in our life that we're trying to manhandle control over.
- [25:08]
Lisa Terkeurst
Or direct toward the outcome that we really think is.
- [25:12]
Jim Kress
I like that one.
- [25:13]
Lisa Terkeurst
That's nuanced, you know, because that, for me, it's like, oh, I can so clearly see how this. How this can be okay, how this can be safe, how this can turn out with a much better outcome. And so I just. It's not that I want to, like, grab everybody and force them. It's just. I just want to, like, eee, eee, eee, eee back over here, like, head in this direction. Because I see things that I'm afraid you don't see. And so have these thoughts, you know, like, consider this narrative. Like, maybe consider these actions.
- [25:43]
Jim Kress
You look like a bit of a seriously. I use this term like a relational, chiropractic person. I'm trying to real. Let me align, Let me realign, get.
- [25:50]
Lisa Terkeurst
Things going or like bowling, you know, I want to be things, and nobody's going to go in the gutter. Like, you're free to go anywhere you want to.
- [25:57]
Joel
I hate those things.
- [25:58]
Lisa Terkeurst
But you are not going to. Let's don't go in the gutter. You know what I mean?
- [26:01]
Jim Kress
Because if you score a strike, it's not real.
- [26:03]
Joel
It's not even real.
- [26:04]
Lisa Terkeurst
I know, but it is.
- [26:04]
Jim Kress
So much feels good in the moment.
- [26:06]
Lisa Terkeurst
It really does.
- [26:06]
Joel
We'll have. Need a therapy session about it later, but here are the type of things I'm talking about with control. It's like you can't have the gutters. Like. Like. Like as much as we want the gutters. Right? Like.
- [26:17]
Lisa Terkeurst
But I love where you're going here, Joel, because there's a big difference between control and stewardship. Because stewardship is still going to leave room for me to be responsible, and I want to be responsible. And sometimes I think, okay, I don't want to control. So I just have to let it all go. But that's not what you're saying.
- [26:37]
Joel
No. Control, again, is something uniquely of what God can only do in totality. And so it might be just a good opportunity to take just an inventory of things that we have in our lives that we're trying to. And again, like you said, comfortably, compassionately, honestly, just say, oh, wow, through self reflection. These are some things that I'm trying to do that is actually outside of my means. And the more that we try to do things that are outside of our means, the end result is not peace, it's anxiety, it's frustration. Right. Stewardship is actually theologically. Stewardship is the sense that God, who is in total control, has given us responsibility and vocation, and now we ought to be responsible with the things that have been given to us, which recognizes our human limits. So stewardship is a gift for us because stewardship allows us to do what we can with what we have in the means that we have. And anything that is outside of our means or things that we don't have are things that we're not required to be stewards over. And so we have to be really careful with that. And so you might just say, oh, what are some things in my life that I'm trying to control that are actually not things that are even mine to control? And what are some things that I actually ought to steward that God has given to me, but I actually might be neglecting those things because I'm so busy consumed, trying to control the things that I have no control over. And in so doing, this is what is being acted out. 2nd Corinthians 10:5. We're taking captive these thoughts that could derail us. Instead, with your language, bringing them back into the middle. And the mystery of this is when we bring it back into the middle, we don't try to control it. We don't try to try to force it into one of these lanes. We bring it to in obedience to Christ. He's the one who brings rule and reign over it.
- [28:30]
Jim Kress
Can I share a quote I made up? It's an Instagram post and it's a gym ism, so I don't know how good this one, but I liked it and some people seem to like it. And it's just simple if I can remember it. Sorry. When I try, I have a picture of a game controller on my Instagram post. When I try to control what I cannot control, I will be controlled by what I cannot control. So it's both, because I am one of the biggest controllers. Like, I want to control. You know, a moment ago, we had a small little edit because the TV went on some screensaver thing, and I got to control by going up and touch screening the thing. I like the remote control. But when I try to control what I really cannot control, then I will be controlled by what I cannot control. And the biggest place that's ever gotten me, not you two, but is parenting. And I have to realize, wow, that agency that even our kids have, or in this betrayal series we're doing in trust series, I will do all I can to control my spouse from not acting out in infidelity. Or once they do, I will control. No one knows this one, right? I will control that. They will never for sure go act out again. I will be enough this. And then you have foolish people who are out there saying, well, if you just give them more sex or if you would do more of this or if you would do this or what.
- [29:45]
Lisa Terkeurst
You'Re encouraging you to try to control things.
- [29:47]
Jim Kress
It's absolutely. And it's like.
- [29:49]
Joel
And that's not controlled.
- [29:50]
Jim Kress
Well, then if one betrays oneself, believe it or not, because they wake. And I threw everything in. Stonewall Jackson said, throw everything into the fight. I did it all. I mean, I crossed T's and dotted I's and I did everything, and they betrayed me again. And that's a setup versus a yielding of cannot. You know, and we know this, but our buddy Chaz and your husband Chaz knows this well because of his own admission of recovery. Right. I'm a 12 stepper myself, too, in recovery. And there's the idea. I do inventory work. I look, I gotta make it about me. Do we tell people this is from the 12 steps real quick. Don't take somebody else's inventory. You're over this. Obsessed with what he needs, Joel needs to do in his life. Where's your own inventory? You come back and go, okay, what do I need to do here in the middle, sure, but what do I need to do here?
- [30:38]
Lisa Terkeurst
So good. Well, let's end with this, because I think this is also coming back to that. Am I being a steward of this, or am I trying to control this? I have to be careful that I don't run into the future mentally. Like, run into the future, determine what is best, and then try to hold everyone accountable, including God, to what my version of the best is. Instead, what I have to do is recognize I've got to be right here in this moment. I can make wise decisions by considering the future, but I can't run into the future, write a script, and then try to hold God accountable to the script that I've written of how things should go. And I think one of the best ways that I can do that is to recognize yes, God may not have this future in mind. It may be different. But just because it's different doesn't mean it's bad. Different can still be good. Anything we place in God's hands will not return void anything we place. So if I place my future in God's hands, it may look different, but when it's in God's hands, it's not bad. It's just different.
- [32:02]
Unknown
Okay, honest confession here. I am someone who identifies with a tendency to reach for more control in my life. But what I never really connected the dots on before today's conversation was how control and trust are related. I thought it was such a helpful practice to to really think through the difference between stewardship and control. I know I'll be coming back to that one for a while. Before you head out, I want to make sure you know about a couple of things. First, if today's Conversation got your wheels turning about this whole topic of control, then there is a free resource by Lisa Turkers that would be a great next step for you. It's called Am I Trying to Control the Uncontrollable? And whether you identify as a control freak or not, this resource will really help you as you learn the sneaky ways that control sneaks up in your thoughts and behaviors. Like I mentioned, it's available completely for free, so download today by visiting the link in our Show Notes next. I hope you're loving all these conversations that we've had on the podcast so far this season. And what you may not know is that Lisa Turker's new book I want to trust you, but I Don't. Moving forward when you're skeptical of others, afraid of what God will allow, and doubtful of your own discernment really set the tone for all these conversations having on the podcast this season. So make sure you grab your copy from the P31 Bookstore by clicking the link in our show notes. Finally, thank you to our friends at the American association of Christian Counselors for sponsoring today's Conversation. Guys, make sure you check out our show notes to learn more about them and what they're up to and how you can even partner with them. Okay friends, be sure to come back next week for our last conversation in this series from Lisa, Jim and Joel. It's going to be so good therapy and theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe, when you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.