S8 E2 | How To Deal With Emotional Abuse

Summary

Therapy & Theology: Episode S8 E2 | How To Deal With Emotional Abuse

Released April 10, 2025 | Host: Lysa TerKeurst | Guests: Counselor Jim Kress & Dr. Joel Mutamale

In the second episode of Season 8 of Therapy & Theology, host Lysa TerKeurst teams up with licensed professional counselor Jim Kress and Dr. Joel Mutamale, Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, to delve into the complex topic of emotional abuse. The trio explores the intricacies of emotional abuse, focusing on two prevalent tactics: love bombing and gaslighting. Through personal anecdotes, theological insights, and practical strategies, they aim to equip listeners with the understanding and tools necessary to recognize and navigate emotionally abusive relationships.

Understanding Emotional Abuse

Lysa TerKeurst sets the stage by addressing the dual nature of the term "emotional abuse," noting its frequent overuse and misuse in contemporary conversations. She emphasizes the need for sensitivity when discussing such a deeply personal and impactful subject.

"Emotional abuse is one of the most underused terms and overused terms that I think people are using in conversation right now today as we sit here."
[02:07] — Lysa TerKeurst

Love Bombing Explored

Jim Kress provides a comprehensive overview of love bombing, highlighting its nuanced manifestations. He describes love bombing as an intense and often overwhelming display of affection and attention, which can come in various forms at different stages of a relationship.

"They're coming on thick and fast... extravagant actions... all kinds of gifts, you know, statements."
[03:46] — Jim Kress

Lysa shares her personal experience with love bombing, illustrating the "famine-feast" cycle where periods of neglect are abruptly replaced by excessive displays of love and attention. This cycle creates emotional whiplash, making it difficult for individuals to maintain emotional stability.

"It went from the famine of, like, no flowers, no gifts, no love letters, to all of a sudden, things were showing up on my front doorstep constantly."
[06:29] — Lysa TerKeurst

Jim further explains the psychological impact of love bombing, likening it to "emotional vertigo," where the inconsistency between neglect and overabundance leads to confusion and emotional instability.

"That sets up emotional whiplash. It's like, whoa, wow."
[13:10] — Jim Kress

Gaslighting Unpacked

The conversation transitions to gaslighting, a manipulative tactic where the abuser causes the victim to doubt their own reality and perceptions. Jim defines gaslighting as attempts to make someone feel "crazy" or question their sanity by denying or distorting facts.

"Gaslighting is when I try to get you in what I call that emotional vertigo and try to make you think you crazy..."
[24:21] — Jim Kress

Lysa discusses how gaslighting intertwines with love bombing, creating a destructive cycle that undermines the victim's sense of self-worth and reality.

"I was suspicious, but now every time I feel suspicious, I stop and ask me. Instead of focusing on what are they doing that's making me suspicious, I would then stop and go, oh, no, I'm suspicious. I'm crazy."
[25:10] — Lysa TerKeurst

Biblical Perspectives on Love and Gaslighting

Dr. Joel Mutamale introduces a theological lens to the discussion, referencing 1 Corinthians 13 as a benchmark for authentic love. He contrasts genuine, covenantal love with the manipulative nature of love bombing.

"First Corinthians 13, 4, 7... it's not self-seeking. Love finds no joy in unrighteousness, but rejoices in truth."
[18:54] — Dr. Joel Mutamale

Joel further explores the Shema from Deuteronomy 6:4, emphasizing the importance of internalizing God's steadfast love as a foundation for recognizing and rejecting manipulative behaviors.

"Repeat these things to your children. ... you need to have some people in your life that I can rehearse the truth with."
[35:14] — Dr. Joel Mutamale

Strategies to Deal with Emotional Abuse

The panel offers practical strategies for those experiencing emotional abuse. Jim advocates for building a "personal board of directors"—a trusted group of individuals who can provide validation and perspective.

"Develop a personal board of directors and say, you know me, we have some history. What do you hear me struggling with?"
[33:53] — Jim Kress

Lysa emphasizes the importance of seeking truth and relying on trusted friends or mentors to counteract the distortions caused by gaslighting.

"Find a few safe people to gather around and give them permission. Tell me what you see."
[33:53] — Lisa TerKeurst

Joel ties these strategies back to biblical principles, suggesting that rehearsing the truth and grounding oneself in scriptural truths can aid in overcoming emotional manipulation.

"You keep me accountable to this. Is this actually true? Is this an accurate retelling of that story?"
[37:12] — Dr. Joel Mutamale

Personal Insights and Conclusion

Lysa reflects on her journey through emotional abuse, highlighting the balance between recognizing manipulative behaviors and maintaining self-worth through community support and faith.

"I believe you, even if you don't get every detail right. I believe that what you are upset about, you should legitimately be upset about."
[29:52] — Jim Kress

The discussion concludes with a reaffirmation of commitment to reality and truth, encouraging listeners to seek support and stay grounded in their faith and personal truths.

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs."
[42:19] — Jim Kress

Key Takeaways

• Recognize the Signs: Understand the patterns of love bombing and gaslighting to identify emotional abuse early.
• Seek Support: Build a trusted network of friends, family, or mentors who can provide objective perspectives and validation.
• Ground Yourself in Truth: Utilize scriptural truths and personal experiences to maintain a clear understanding of reality.
• Set Boundaries: Establish and maintain healthy boundaries to protect yourself from manipulative behaviors.
• Commit to Reality: Prioritize mental and emotional health by acknowledging and addressing abusive dynamics without denial.

This episode of Therapy & Theology offers a compassionate and insightful exploration of emotional abuse, blending professional counseling with theological wisdom to empower listeners in their journey toward healing and self-discovery.

Transcript

[Lysa TerKeurst]

This season of Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Compassion International. Compassion brings real solutions to the poverty that so many children in today's world are facing, all in Jesus name and through the generosity of sponsors. Visit compassion.comproverbs 31 or click the link in our show notes to choose a child to sponsor today. As an added bonus, when you become a sponsor, Compassion will send you a copy of our study guide called the Beginning of All Wisdom. Now onto today's episode of Therapy and Theology.

[Shay Hill]

Hi friends. Welcome back to the Therapy and theology podcast by Proverbs 31 Ministries where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shay Hill, and I'm so excited for you to hear another great conversation from Lisa Terkers, counselor Jim Kress and Dr. Joel Mutamale. Remember, each episode of this season is going to help you get out of any dysfunctional dances and be bravely honest about what you may be experiencing behind closed doors. Today they're going to talk about emotional abuse, both what it is and what it isn't, as well as the terms love bombing and gaslighting. Before we jump in, I want to let you know about two things. First, we want to hear from you guys, our listeners, by clicking the link in our show notes. You can submit a question or even a voice memo for Lisa, Jim and Joel to listen to. Your question could be answered on a future episode, so make sure you check it out. Secondly, download a free resource by Lisa titled Trust is A track record 5 Scriptural Truths to remember God's faithfulness. This resource will provide you with prayers to declare when you want to stay connected to God. Guided journal prompts to help you work through your honest thoughts and struggles about trusting him and more. Because we help you work through what you walk through here on therapy and theology, I wanted to make sure you knew about this free resource that could really help you just do that. So download it today using the link in our show notes. Now let's jump in to hear from Lisa, Jim and Joel.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Emotional abuse is one of the most underused terms and overused terms that I think people are using in conversation right now today as we sit here. And so I want to approach our topic here with great sensitivity. We're not trying to once again go into your situation and prescribe exactly what you're supposed to do. We're not gonna tell you what to think. We're gonna give you a lot to think about on today's episode as we jump into two tactics that are sometimes used to emotionally abuse People, and that is love bombing and gaslighting. So, Jim, I'm gonna turn to you first about the love bombing thing. I'd love for you to give us some kind of orientation. Exactly what it is. And then I want to talk about how I have experienced that before.

[Jim Kress]

I like that you said not so much the definition of, but the orientation too, because it has many nuances. I think love bombing does. So I say often they're coming on thick and fast. I mean, they're coming on and there are two different types or entrances. I've seen love bombing come in early in a relationship, and it could come from their anxious attachment style or like, dating. Yeah. Just. I mean, it's like. And often people say, like, whoa, boy. Or whoa, you know, Are you wanting to call me all the time? We've just started dating. Obviously on the sexual arena, it could be like, well, let's go sexual early in dating. Right. But they will come on quick with all kinds of stuff and whatever. Love language stuff or flowers or we got to be together. We got to be on the phone every night or on FaceTime gifts and.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Kind of extravagant actions, which some people.

[Jim Kress]

May say, wow, this is great. But after a while, it's like, that's just too much too soon. Also, there is that entrance where a person has not been love bombed. Maybe they had some dating there together, including in a marriage. And then a person begins to pull back appropriately. Let's say, for example, one example in healthy boundaries, like now we, I'm not doing this dysfunctional dance anymore. I will begin to have boundaries and they pull back. Or even more someone saying, hey, if this is where you are, I'm going to separate. Or we break up in a relationship or in a marriage, literally to separate. Like this unhealthy dance that you're doing. I'm not going to continue to be that close or intimate with you. And then, bam. I mean, it's like circus parade. You got the jugglers. I mean, they're just pouring it on quick, that's all. With a hook. I call that a boomerang in a relationship. I'm doing all that love bombing to boomerang back to get you back. And that's a high dopamine high, norepinephrine high that someone says, you moved away and I got you back.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

So I have experienced this before in a relationship where there was a lot of rejection and a lot of hurt, a lot of pain. And I eventually made some decisions to take agency in that relationship and put up some healthy boundaries and Honestly, create some healthy separations to give myself time to get emotionally regulated. And it's like, okay, if you're going to reject me, then I am also going to create some safety around me so that the intensity of the ongoing rejection isn't something that I'm now allowing you to continue. And the minute that I started to pull back, and maybe even it wasn't that I was rejecting them, I was drawing healthy boundaries, but they perceived it as me rejecting them, then all of a sudden, it went from famine of no attention to an absolute feast of so much attention. So what this did to me emotionally is I fell right into it. I was like, wow, okay, so now this is everything I've ever dreamed of. I've dreamed of them saying, like, you're so beautiful and there's no one in the world that's as amazing as you. But I want you to listen to kind of the extreme nature of that. And it went from the famine of, like, no flowers, no gifts, no love letters, to all of a sudden, things were showing up on my. My front doorstep constantly.

[Jim Kress]

Amazon was very happy.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Amazon was happy. The florist was happy. You know, and so the way that I took that then, because I fell right into the hook, like you said, the way I took it is this is everything I've ever dreamed of. Well, yes, the rejection was horrible, and the betrayal was really, really heartbreaking. But if it got me to the place where now we are going to have this relationship that I've always dreamed we could have, Bombs away, then this is amazing, right? The problem is then, once you settle into this, is now a safe person. I can totally trust this person again. Look how much they love me. You know, I really have great hope for the relationship. Then all of a sudden, it cycles around to now there's going to be a famine again. And in that famine, now, the rejection, the betrayal, the hurt, the heartbreak, it's almost even deeper. You know, like the Bible says, hope deferred makes the heart sick. And it's like, I had no hope. I got great hope. Now my hopes are dashed, but it becomes a cycle. So then, okay, they pull back, they reject whatever, but they still don't want to lose the relationship. So then as I pull back to create safety, draw healthy boundaries, then all of a sudden, it goes from famine to feast again, right? And then it gets my hopes up again. And then I'm like, wow, okay. This time it's real. This time they really do. They love me. And they've made some mistakes for sure, but all People make mistakes.

[Jim Kress]

Rationalizing.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

But what I missed is. No, this is a pattern.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And the thrill of getting you back is really the motivation. It has nothing to do with me. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't so that I could be well cared for and loved and treasured and all of that. It was because it was thrilling. The thrill of the chase. Like, it was thrilling to the pursuit. But then the capture lost all its thrill.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah.

[Jim Kress]

Notice the dance real quick. You've said so eloquently. You were on this side. And this is everything I could ever want. Mercy and compassion. Of course we get to be human. This was everything I ever wanted. And in that cycle, running around a little bit like the victim triangle, maybe, but all of a sudden you've literally just said in a different way. And. And that other person then finally got everything they had always wanted. Was. That's a powerful thing to go, Bo. She's bouncing away and I can do all this love bombing and I get her right back. So you, unhealthy as it may have been, were getting everything you wanted, but once you responded and loved the gifts and all that, and maybe said, okay, maybe this person's changing, they, in that moment, including dopamine firing in their brain, got everything they want. Plan, work.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I think what's fascinating about that is the way that God designed us for love compared to the way love bombing. And we're going to talk about gaslighting in a second. How that works, where God designed us to experience this consistency of love over a period of time, you know, so.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Not the famine feast.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah, that's a bipolar something. That wasn't in my notes. I'm going to spring it on you guys.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Okay.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

This is like the thing that a theologian should never do, but probably shouldn't.

[Jim Kress]

You're outing yourself.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

I do.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Are you about to love bomb us?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

No, no, this is not love bombing. This is.

[Jim Kress]

We'd like it if you would, but anyhow.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

No, this is not love bombing. This is just like. Let's take a step into speculation. What? Like, let's play a game of what if.

[Lysa TerKeurst]

Right?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

And we're going to do a what if with God.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

He's so off guard.

[Jim Kress]

Are we like the contestants?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

He's so off of our notes right now.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

He's so off of our notes. But I think it's going to be good rogue over there. Because it just kind of dawned on me. It's like, okay, imagine if God showed his love to the people of Israel through the context of love bombing. Okay, so just Think about it. Imagine if God doesn't give the people of Israel in the wilderness wandering daily manna, but instead he goes, hey, one day out of the week, I'm just gonna throw a whole bunch of manna, a whole bunch of food, but then y'all gonna have to starve for the rest of the week. You know, he doesn't do that. Imagine if God was like, hey, you're wandering the wilderness and you know, there's a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of cloud by day. But imagine if God just was just like, randomly. I'm just going to stop. I'm just not going to show up and now starve you, right, and then show back up. And I just think that it's a fascinating concept. The principle that we find throughout Scripture in terms of how God is actually trying to teach and train us to experience love, is consistent, faithful, covenantal love. The Hebrew word for this is hesed. It's a hard word to translate. Most of your Bible translate if you have like the esv, it says steadfast love. I love that. But if I were to kind of translate it, I would use a very long, long chain of words. It is the hesed love of God is faithful, enduring, loving, steadfast, covenantal, never ceasing, never. I mean, that is the essence of what that has said kind of love is. And what's fascinating with love bombing is love bombing is not a hesed kind of love. There's not faithful endurance, there's not covenant loyalty. There's not a never ceasing in. The goal of love bombing, it sounds like to me, is to overwhelm your senses to a point, to compromise your ability to think rationally.

[Jim Kress]

Very well put.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

If you are being overwhelmed and you can't think rationally now, your affections are actually in a place to be able to be manipulated.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And Jim, you've taught me, and I think this is really important, that love bombing nature of, like, I don't want you, I do want you. Lavish, lavish, lavish, lavish. You know, I don't want you, I do want you. Lavish, lavish, lavish, all kinds of gifts, you know, statements. Big, big extremes. Then what's formed in intensity is in that kind of intensity of the famine, the feast, the famine, the feast. That intensity, it's a relationship built on intensity, not intimacy.

[Jim Kress]

That's right.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And intimacy, that consistency that, like, I know I can count on you. Yes, there's going to be little ups and downs, but there's not going to be massive rejection and then big, intense love. And the massive rejection and then seemingly big, intense love. Right.

[Jim Kress]

That sets up emotional whiplash.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

It does.

[Jim Kress]

It's like, whoa, wow. And what I call also emotional vertigo, because most people know what vertigo is. Some have experienced it. But what I call relational or emotional vertigo is I begin to spin, Like, I don't even know what's going on here. So that backlash whiplash of love bombing. And certainly as we move into gaslighting, it's very dysregulating to one system, while this other person over here, they're just having a party.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

That's so true. And I do think here's something really important. I don't want you to all go, oh, wow, I sent my wife flowers two times last week. Is that love bombing? Thank you for sending your wife flowers two times last week. That's called romance, you know, and that is lovely. Some people might even call it foreplay inside of a marriage. Okay. But I'm just saying, like, to love your person. Well. And of course, like, when you're dating, you know, there is going to be, like, extra love notes.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

There'll be extravagance. There's a difference.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

But there's a motivation factor that.

[Jim Kress]

A good one. Healthy motivation.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

And there's rationale. Like, you can look at it and evaluate and be like, oh, there's rationale for why there might be a little bit more extravagance in this expression of love. I think that the challenge here is when there is love bombing and the extravagance gets into a level of intensity and there's a catch that's associated and trying to be wise.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Strings attached.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yes. And you're trying to figure out what is the catch. And if you always, like, you know, something that it's, like, happens with my kids, maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but it's like, all of a sudden, my kids are like, dad, I want to wash your car. And, dad, I want to. You know, I'm going to do all the dishes. And you're the best dad. You're the best dad in the whole world. And I could not have asked for better dad. You know, I'm just like, I feel so good.

[Jim Kress]

The boomerang is.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

And then it's like, hey, Dad, I want to go out with my friends and have a sleepover tonight. And by the way, can I have a hundred bucks? Like, excuse? Yes. Like, because I feel like I want to keep the momentum of love that's coming my way. But also, dude, you just manipulated me big time with, like, trying to shower love on Me, it's like, oh, there were strings attached to this.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

So I think you bring up a good point, Joel, is the love bombing. Then can I think where we need to take a step back from it.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Is just by the way, my kids do love me. That doesn't happen all the time.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

They do think he's the greatest dad.

[Jim Kress]

Thank you for the description.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

But I will say where the line gets crossed is love bombing. The motive behind it is not to love and care. Well, for the person that you're giving these gifts to, to you and saying these big bombastic statements to you and all of that, the motivation isn't about them. It's about getting what you want in the moment that you want it. And so I think that's really, really important. And never forget too, that when you're, when you're kind of in an unhealthy relationship, that all of a sudden starts to appear amazing. But then the pattern is we're going to go right back into these unhealthy things. This is what we call that dysfunctional dance. And I think it's really important to pay attention to this and acknowledge this is what I'm experiencing.

[Jim Kress]

So now throw in a quick test, real quick.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yes.

[Jim Kress]

James, chapter four and following. Why are there fightings and quarrels among you? It's like, oh, I want to hear the answer to this one. This is the bible. Why are there fightings and quarrels among you? Is it not this? There's something you want, which is a demand. You better give me that. Think of a love bomber. There's something you want and you don't get it. You don't get what you want, so you what, get mad, get angry? You know what it says? It says, so you murder and you have not because you ask, not all you ask to consume it upon your own lust, you adulterous people and desires.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

That rage within you.

[Jim Kress]

Yeah, just all this stuff that there. So the love bombing always ends up being true bombing. Because underneath that, when they don't get what they want, there is rage underneath that. Even you say they didn't rage, they just moved on, went to another relationship. Trust me, there will be rage in their heart going on. If we go too far into pornography, we have what we call eroticized rage. Just mad at a spouse and I'll go do this, shutting them out, stonewalling. But that's that piece of love bombing. They're always after the hundred dollar bill. They're always after getting what they want, so they will move on. And that bombing turns into Another type of bombing.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And it's hate bombing, right?

[Jim Kress]

Oh, it will definitely go on.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

And I'll just jump this in here because some people might just be wondering. This is what I'd be wondering. Well, how do I know what's genuine love and what's love bombing? How do I make a distinction between them? So I just want to give you First Corinthians 13, 4, 7, which I think is going to be a perfect diagnostic tool to determine the difference between authentic has had kind of love versus love bombing. This is what Paul says to a church in Corinth that is honestly whack and wild. They're going through all kinds of stuff. And Paul is like, listen, everybody, pay attention. This is what love is. Love is patient. And I think that when he starts with patience, that is our instant, like, rebuttal to love bombing. You know, there's a patient endorsed. And he goes, and it's kind. It doesn't envy. It's not boastful. Right? It's not arrogant. Like, pay attention to the words and the phrases in love bombing. What's the goal that the other person is trying to get? Are they trying to get boastfulness? Are they trying to, like, affirm their own arrogance that they're, you know, there's.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Something super special and are they trying to do nice things and then tell lots of people about it?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yes.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Like, look how great I love her.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

That's exactly right. Exactly. And it's like that boastfulness actually feeds into arrogance. He says it's not rude. Here's the pivotal one. It's not self seeking. You know, it's not irritable. It doesn't keep records of wrong. Love finds no joy in unrighteousness, but it rejoices in truth. Then it bears all things, it believes all things, it hopes all things. And again, Paul starts the list with patience and he ends it with patience. It endures all things. And I just think that's a helpful, maybe diagnostic to be able to evaluate.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

That's so good. And like we hinted at before, if you're being love bombed and then the other person has expectations of what you are now going to do for them, and you don't do that. Like, it didn't work. They didn't get you to do what they wanted you to do. The love bombing can turn into hate bombing. You know, and that's where I want to now, kind of now that we've acknowledged that, then step into the gaslighting, because that was also part of the cycle during the. The Famine times, gaslighting would often happen because I would start questioning, why are we now back in this place? You know? And then I would have suspicions or I would have questions. But when I would ask, like, what's going on? Why have things now dramatically taken, you know, a bad turn? Or we're back to this craziness that I thought we were healed from, I thought we'd moved on from. Then it was flipped back on me and I was told, I'm the crazy one, I'm the problem. Why are you now destroying our relationship? Because you keep having these suspicions, you keep having these questions. You know, what's your problem? And that's where we get into the gaslighting. Hi, friends.

[Lysa TerKeurst]

I hope you're enjoying this episode of Therapy and Theology. Before we hear what's next, I want to pause and thank our partner for season eight, Compassion International. For years, Proverbs 31 Ministries has stood alongside Compassion International because we love their mission. Bring real solutions to the poverty that so many children in today's world are facing in Jesus name. I've seen Compassion's impact myself through the letters and updates I've received from the child I spent sponsor several of my teammates here at Proverbs 31 sponsor children as well. And we would all tell you the same thing. The work Compassion is doing is truly amazing. When you sponsor a child, you ensure access to quality education, medical checkups, healthy food, clean water, and most importantly, the love of Jesus, all delivered through their church in their community. Compassion isn't just changing the lives of children. It's changing entire families and whole, whole communities in need. And it's also changed me. So today I hope you'll join me in sponsoring a child through Compassion. All you have to do is pull out your phone and text Proverbs 3:1 with no spaces to 83393. That's Proverbs 3:1 with no Spaces to 83393. You'll get a text back with a picture of a child who is waiting for a sponsor and a link to sponsor that child. You can also go to compassion.comproverbs 31 to sponsor a child. And when you become a sponsor, Compassion will send you a copy of our study guide titled the Beginning of All Wisdom as our way of saying thank you for investing in the life of a child. Thank you for joining me in sponsoring a child through Compassion today. Now back to the show.

[Jim Kress]

Yeah. And as a bridge across May I? When you're talking about love bombing, which leads to hate bombing, spoken eloquently and you talk about gaslighting, you just shared. It ties right in. And that is lovey dovey. Lovey dovey. This is agape love. This is great love of First Corinthians 13. This reality of gaslighting and love bombing, trust me, developmentally is very young in a person. I mean, it's one of my key themes. I'm going, I have a sign in my office. How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? So would you mind you just eloquently read as a segue First Corinthians 13. Think about unhealthy infantile or adolescent behavior in this. Would you happen to read verse 11, please?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah. First Corinthians 13, 11. It says, When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became a man, I put aside childish things.

[Jim Kress]

So all that stuff that I do, that really I believe, teach that no therapist.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

That's fascinating. It comes right in the end of the love chapter.

[Jim Kress]

I've married people as a pastor have that. And I say please, even though there's a context coming up behind that. Please put verse 11. And so if you want to love well and you are love bombing or you are narcissistic or whatever words we're going to continue to use, or certainly if you're gaslighting, that's very young in a person because little kids can say, lie or say you made me do. It's a classic one. See what you made me do? I mean, gaslighting goes real early in a person. So we want to define what it is at one level.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yes.

[Jim Kress]

Simply like you said before, not so much a definition but a description. Gaslighting is when I say, you and I are raised up. I know the truth, you know the truth. We both know what the heck's happened here. We know that. But then I try to get you in what I call that emotional vertigo and try to make you think you crazy or may even call you that when we both know exactly what I've been doing. The goal is not just lying. You know my log I use. I either lie right at you and lie. Oh, is omitting. You didn't ask that. That's very young. I ain't going to tell you, son. Did you eat the cook the chocolate chip cookie? No, but I ate the Twinkie that was over here. Or ate some candy. You didn't ask that. Mom starts very young. Lie, omitting or gaslighting? The gaslighting Is we both know the truth. But my goal is to make you feel crazy, where you're kind of spinning, and sadly, you know what?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

It works so that you doubt your own. Like, for me, it's like, I was suspicious, but now every time I feel suspicious, I stop and ask me. Instead of focusing on what are they doing that's making me suspicious, I would then stop and go, oh, no, I'm suspicious. That probably means he's right. I'm crazy. I'm crazy. I'm the crazy one. I'm seeing things that I shouldn't see. I'm, you know, I'm.

[Jim Kress]

Isn't how powerful.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Perceiving things that really aren't real. And then that also starts to wear you down to the point you don't want to invite other people in.

[Jim Kress]

Totally.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And you kind of get locked into this. This feeling of craziness. And what I feared is if I brought someone else in to ask them, am I like, could my suspicions possibly be true that I would be proven wrong, and in being proven wrong, that my suspicions weren't true, then that would automatically mean I'm the crazy person.

[Jim Kress]

And, you know, that happens. And sadly, honestly, that happens with people who are in the caregiving roles, whether they're pastors. It happens a lot with therapists, and sometimes because the therapist hasn't done their own work, and they go, well, is it biblical? Or maybe you just need to submit, or maybe not. Maybe it looks like this. It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck. It means everything. But it might not be a duck. That's crazy, isn't it? But sometimes even some therapists have done that.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yeah. And I think gaslighting came from an old movie, right?

[Jim Kress]

There's two different movies. Alfred Hitchcock has one.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yeah, yeah. Where? I don't know. I can't remember. Is it that the.

[Jim Kress]

The woman would set the gas lamp.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Would go out and turn them on, turn all the gas lanterns on, knew.

[Jim Kress]

They were on, and he would begin to. I use the dimmer switch in my office with clients. Or if we did it here, you know, it ruined the video shoot. But if you begin to dim the light. So it's not always sometimes that gas lighting, more of a dimmer. Otherwise you just go. Go click and turn the light off. She knew. And people do that today. Honey, did I leave the porch light on? We always do every night. I know I did. She knew. She turned it on. The guy came behind her and said, you didn't turn those lights on. So the gas lamps or the Gas lights, that is the gas lighting. He knew exactly that he was manipulating her. And she began to go, maybe I didn't. And then the crazy game's on. And then.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And what is he hoping to do in turning those lanterns off and her saying, I know I turned them on, but they're off, so did I turn them on?

[Jim Kress]

Get her dysregulated again, what I call emotional or relational vertigo. Because if you start spinning, if I'm an addict and Jim Kress is a recovering addict, so I can relate to it, if I see you spinning, maybe crazy, you're going to dial back, possibly saying, well, I saw this sign or I saw something else, you're going to begin to back away and not hold me accountable because you're going to think you crazy up in there and not that I'm crazy. Very functional.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

So good. And it doesn't just happen with addicts. It can happen with anyone who is trying to kind of get you off the scent of whatever it is.

[Jim Kress]

Little kids do it. They don't know the term gaslighting, but they're doing. They know the truth. You're looking right at them with chocolate all over their mouth. And little Jack, Jack, my grandson, we've got a video of it and Laura and my daughter in law is like, who got into the cookies? And then they go down the line, my three grandsons, and gets to Jack, Jack, and he says, not me. I mean it's just loaded with chocolate. So he knows completely well. So this often is why I say, had you read that verse? This is very young developmentally, why it's important to grow up and put away childish things.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

So what do we do about it? So if we're in a situation where we are either being love bombed or there's gaslighting happening, like, are there some strategies, are there some practices? Like, what do we need to do if we're caught in a situation where this is happening?

[Jim Kress]

Well, again, I'm going to go back to mental health. I've added spiritual health. From Scott Peck, the author. Mental health is a commitment to reality at all cost. I am convinced that people tune off the last part of the verse of that statement and that is at all cost. So I want to get unilaterally. If you want a practical thing, I want you. And I know for a fact you did this with my buddy, with Joel, Others, you did this with me. And that is you get your safe people, even if it's one or two, and say, yeah, I trust you. This is what's going on do you think I'm crazy? Mirror back. What do you. So often that works with a safe person at times, like a therapist to come in, and I said to you, you know, one of the things you've said about my work with you, which has been just the joy of a lifetime, and I thought, wow, I mean, I've tried to really work hard for you, and that's what you say. The best thing Jim ever did to help me was to say, I believe.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

I believe you.

[Jim Kress]

And I'm being a little facetious, but I went, no, I've realized that is the core. Because in gaslighting, emotional dysregulation, I'll question myself. So when someone says, look, my hub, I hear you. You, I understand you, and B, I believe you, that's the starting point. Who in your life do you have two or three good friends who you can go in? Therapy helps at times because it's confidential. And you say, I want to tell you what's going on. And let another wise person say, you did it with this guy especially. And I had the privilege of being there too, to go, no. This is what we hear.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Can you gaslight yourself?

[Jim Kress]

The research would say no, because notice, and here's why, because early in therapy and theology, I use that term, and I realized it was wrong. You get to change, because gaslighting has to have the issue that I know the truth and, like, you know the truth. So let's say I know the truth, but I'm here to overtly deceive myself. What you can do is be in denial. This is the second one that is very prominent. I think way more than denial is rationalization that's in the therapy field that I will rationalize of. Well, maybe I'm dysregulated. Maybe he's right. But I don't have the intention in true gaslighting to lie to myself, knowing I'm lying and deceive myself. That make sense?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the reason it was so important when we would do our sessions and you would say I believe you is because sometimes the narrative around a situation that happened would. His narrative would be so vastly different than my narrative. And then I was like, wow, maybe I am making too big of a deal. Maybe. Maybe it really wasn't as I remembered it. And so it was so helpful and so regulating for me to come in. And certainly you were listening to places where maybe I was taking the narrative in a wrong direction. Because I'm not saying that my narrative was always right, but what I am saying Is the consistency. You've said this before, Lisa. This is pretty consistent with that. And this is consistent with that. Like, Lisa, I. I believe you, even if you don't get every detail right. I believe that what you are upset about, you should legitimately be upset about. And that just helped me so much. It helped me stop doubting that, you know, that I was really the one at fault with everything.

[Jim Kress]

To go back to the triangle, you say, oh, that's another program we know, but the victim triangle at that moment. And you know this well, and so does Joel. I was not rescuing you. I was simply with you and holding up a mirror to say, and we know that James tells us God's word is the mirror. And I was holding it up and saying, here's what I see. And we built trust and safety versus me just being someone cutting your hair at the grocery store to say, okay, I'm going to show you back, remind you. And we know that God's word does that. Remember Zakar in Hebrew. Remember, remember. And it's like I was saying, hey, this is what I've witnessed. We all need a fair witness to our stories, our lives. And so I had a chance to witness and go, I see it, I believe it.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And so I do love that you often remind people, don't go at this alone. You know, don't. Don't try to work out everything on your own. You don't need to tell everyone, but find a few safe people to gather around and give them permission. Tell me what you see. Like, when I present this situation, help me see what I possibly can't see.

[Jim Kress]

On my own, which can be, well, you know, I call it the personal board of directors. I don't care if you only have two seats at it. Try to get four seats. But these are trusted people who've earned the right to sit at your table. So develop a personal board of directors and say, you know me, we have some history. You've seen my ups, my downs, my highs, my lows. What do you hear me struggling with?

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And what we're really after is truth. Like with love bombing, like, it's so hard to discern what is true, what is not true. With Gaslighting, it's so hard to discern what is true, what is not true. But once we have people that we trust and love and that have our best interest in mind, both to say the hard things and the good things. But once we start establishing what the truth is, the truth is a great starting point to then start to make progress toward healing or Start to make progress toward help, you know, Start to make progress in a positive direction. And that's what we want. We just don't want to stay in this dysfunctional dance that eventually creates so much emotional exhaustion that it starts to lead to spiritual confusion about everything in our life.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah. I think that there's a part of me that just wonders. It's like, okay, what do we do with this? There's a part of me that just wonders, did Moses experience a lot of gaslighting from the people of Israel? Like, I just think about, like, how many times Israelites come to Moses throughout the Exodus period, and they're just like, why did you bring us out here to die? We had meat and fish and food and all kinds of great stuff, you know? And Moses is like, wait a minute. Like, weren't y'all, like, indent, like, heavy labor slaves? Like, I don't know about you, but.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Like, extremely unfair conditions.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yeah. And I'm like, I don't know about y'all. Maybe I did because I grew up in the royal house. But, like, you guys, I don't. I don't think so. You know? And so there's even the sense there. It's like, well, what. How does Moses respond to that? And I think he gives us, in the book of Deuteronomy, the most important thing that we ought to do for sure, in the context of the biblical narrative and the biblical story. But I think it's a principle that we can apply to this conversation of gaslighting and love bombing. But it's called the shema of Deuteronomy 6. And in verse 4, Moses says, Listen, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strengths. It's like the whole of the human body. These words that I'm giving you today are to be in your heart, right? So this is where they reside. They reside in your heart. Now, we know the Hebrew word shuv. It has in mind both the wellspring of emotion and intellectual volition. So today we think of heart as this place of, like, affection and emotional, but reality. But for the Israelites, they're thinking about this both and not either or. It's like the heart and mind resides there and says this. Repeat these things to your children. When I am retelling a story, two things are happening. One is I'm remembering that story because I have to recall it. Second, as I say it, I'm actually reenacting that story. So there's this multiplicity to this. Repeat them to your children. Talk about them when you sit in your house, when you walk along the road, when you lie down, and when you get up. And I love this language. Bind them as a sign on your hand and let them be a symbol on your forehead. Write them on the doorpost of your house and on your city gate. And I just wonder what would happen if we take the same principle that we should be doing in terms of the story of God and his love for us, and then we go back to these moments of gaslighting and love bombing and go, wait, you know what? I need to have some people in my life that I can rehearse the truth with.

[Jim Kress]

That's so good.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

So good, right?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Like, I gotta. I gotta just like, hey, guys, I'm gonna tell the truth. I'm gonna say the truth as I understand it now, you keep me accountable to this. Is this actually true? Is this an accurate retelling of that story? And if so, now we're held with a responsibility to do with the truth as it demands of our lives. Right? And so if we don't make a change, then we're held accountable for that. But it starts with rehearsing the truth and communicating it and remembering it.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And I love that, Joel, because we've said before and you've said it already on this series is reality is crucial.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Yes.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

And so mental health is a commitment to what is real, what is reality, and to bring this all together. In some situations that I faced in the past, love bombing and gaslighting, they're. They're right there together. They're operating together. And what would sometimes start happening is the love bombing would make me start to develop this narrative about how awesome this person is, how incredible they are. The gaslighting was secretly making me feel like I am not awesome, I'm not incredible. Like, there's a whole lot that's wrong with me. So then the narrative, sometimes when I would speak publicly about it is I would diminish myself. I would elevate this other person. And almost I was working against myself because I was convincing other people, like, how awesome they were and how I really couldn't be trusted, which was the exact opposite. So when I got into a situation where, Jim, you could see through some of the emotional dysfunction and emotional warfare that really I was in. And Joel, through the biblical lens of truth, you know, you would ask me wise questions, but also, you guys had experiences with me that allowed me to remember I'm not terrible. Awful, crazy, Right? That actually in every other area of my life. Like, I'm not. I'm pretty sane.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

That's a big one. Because then it's like, wait a minute. Now you're held with the responsibility of truth. Because now we're talking about incongruency. One of those things has to be true. One of them can't be true. And if you've got the weight of witness on. All of these people are saying, this is true. And yet there's this one situation over here. It might be an important situation, might be a very important relationship, but you have to deal honestly with the weight of the evidence that's there. And I think that's where you were at. You're like, oh, wait a minute, hold on.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

That's right.

[Jim Kress]

I got to reevaluate what we were doing, by the way. Okay, this. There was the venom that was put into you. Right. Can I use that gaslighting and say love bombing? But let's stay with gaslighting. So I want you to see as a snake bite, which echoes Eden, although there wasn't a bite, but there was talking. So the venom went on. Joel and I and many others were the antivenom. We were coming along and we weren't telling you, I believe not much new things. We were reminding you the Jewish thing from the shaman, Deuteronomy 6. We were simply reminding you, hey, let's hold up a mirror. Let me remind you, this is who you really are. We see your truth. So that idea was not giving you all this new information. Surely there was some. But we were reminding you this is what's really true, that we've seen and know about you.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

Now, I already know Lisa, and I know in her mind, she's thinking, oh, no, people are going to think that I'm holier than now and all this other stuff. And so let me just say very clearly, there were hard conversations.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Absolutely. That were part of it.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

There was theology that I know, that I challenged you with. There was therapeutic things that Jim, you know. But the point is, like, you dealt with it.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Yes.

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

You considered it. You evaluated it on its own terms. And so I just wanted to bring that because I know.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Thank you, Joel. I always do think that. Because I just want to be careful. This isn't. I'm not a picture of perfection by any means. But also, I do want to just challenge you with this one last thought. When someone has proven to you that they don't have your best interest in mind over a long period of time, when someone has consistently lied to you, why why then do you allow that person to be the loudest voice of truth in your life?

[Dr. Joel Mutamale]

You might need to say that again.

[Lisa TerKeurst]

Say it again. So when someone has proven over a long stretch of time they don't have your best interests in mind and they've lied to you over and over, why then would we put them in the position to be the loudest voice of truth in our life? Again, we're not telling you what to think. We're just giving you a lot to think about. And so if some of today's episode really resonates with you, please know we are praying for you. We hope this information helps you be empowered to then take it and do something with it. Again, not to start accusing other people in your life or labeling other people, but use it as a reality check because mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs. Thank you for joining us with this episode of Therapy and Theology.

[Shay Hill]

Lisa, Jim and Joel, thank you so much for today's conversation. Friend, after listening, there's a lot you can do with what you heard today. First, I would encourage you to share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it. Send them the link to listen, then maybe go grab coffee and talk it over together. Or like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you. You might find yourself in a really difficult place of feeling distant from God, questioning if his plans for you are really good, or maybe something else. If that's you, I want you to know that we deeply understand, but we also want to help. That's why I want to remind you about Lysa Turker's free resource titled Trust is a Track Record. Five Scriptural Truths to remember God's Faithfulness. Download it today using the link in our show notes. That's all for today, friends. Thanks. Thank you so much for tuning in to Therapy and Theology. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.