S8 E4 | The Truth About Narcissism and Borderline Personality Disorder

Summary

Podcast Summary: Therapy and Theology – S8 E4 | The Truth About Narcissism and Borderline Personality Disorder

Episode Overview

In Season 8, Episode 4 of Therapy and Theology, host Shay Hill, along with guests Lysa TerKeurst, licensed professional counselor Jim Cress, and Dr. Joel Muddamalle, delve into the intricate subjects of Narcissism and Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). The conversation aims to provide listeners with a deeper understanding of these complex personality disorders, exploring their characteristics, theological implications, and practical strategies for navigating relationships affected by them.

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Understanding Narcissism and Borderline Personality Disorder

Jim Cress [02:11]:
Jim begins the episode by clarifying the objective of the discussion: "We are not trying to put labels on people... this is supposed to be informative and it's not supposed to be a diagnosis of anybody in your life." He emphasizes the importance of awareness without stigmatization, aiming to equip listeners with knowledge to better navigate their relationships.

Joel Muddamalle [03:21]:
Joel recounts a previous episode and highlights the challenges of accurately diagnosing narcissism, noting, "There is a very low percentage of people diagnostically in America who meet the criteria of narcissistic personality disorder." He explains that true personality disorders are often deeply ingrained and resistant to change, advocating for a cautious and informed approach.

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The Spectrum of Narcissism

Jim Cress [06:31]:
Jim outlines the spectrum of narcissism, differentiating between everyday selfishness and clinical Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). He states, "If we repent, then, you know, it's a garden variety sin, but as it goes more intensely, you're going to have to get help for these tendencies."

Joel Muddamalle [07:37]:
Joel elaborates on the signs of narcissism, such as grandiosity and the need for constant admiration. He shares, "Narcissists are seductive... they flip it because they are seducing you to pull you in."

Jim Cress [09:05]:
Jim provides everyday examples of narcissistic behavior, including constant self-promotion and dismissing others' experiences: "Can it also be like in a conversation, they always have a bigger, a better, a more tragic, you know, whatever?"

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Theological Perspective on Human Nature

Joel Muddamalle [05:27]:
Joel introduces the theological concept of homo incurvitis in se (Latin for "humanity curved inward"), referencing Martin Luther and John Calvin. He explains, "Prior to the Fall, we were human beings that had appropriate balance of appropriate self-love, but at the Fall, our hearts are curved inward."

Jim Cress [13:08]:
Jim connects narcissistic behavior to underlying shame rather than pride, stating, "The root is actually shame that pride helps cover up."

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Navigating Relationships with Narcissists

Jim Cress [17:34]:
Addressing those who suspect they are in relationships with narcissists, Jim advises, "Find better ways to guard your heart… don't lose who you are in the process."

Joel Muddamalle [17:51]:
Joel recommends establishing boundaries as a crucial step: "A boundary without a consequence is a mere suggestion."

Jim Cress [24:14]:
Transitioning to BPD, Jim explains that it shares some traits with narcissism but involves more emotional instability: "Emotional instability, hot and cold... a roller coaster up and down of emotions."

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Recognizing and Addressing Borderline Personality Disorder

Joel Muddamalle [27:31]:
Joel discusses the signs of BPD, such as extreme fear of abandonment and fluctuating emotions. He shares a therapeutic story: "I've seen someone say, 'I stopped walking on eggshells,' but then revert back quickly."

Jim Cress [33:46]:
Jim emphasizes the importance of setting personal boundaries: "We cannot put boundaries on another person to force them to change... you put boundaries around yourself."

Joel Muddamalle [31:34]:
Joel highlights the fear of abandonment inherent in BPD, stating, "They have an extreme fear of abandonment... there's a lot of blame, blame, blame."

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Practical Strategies for Healing and Boundaries

Joel Muddamalle [22:08]:
Joel advises gentle self-reflection and prayer: "I pray and say, Father, is this something that could be going on? Search my heart."

Jim Cress [21:10]:
Jim underscores the necessity of consequences when setting boundaries: "Boundaries always need a consequence."

Joel Muddamalle [18:19]:
Joel discusses the concept of being an "empath" and how it can lead to losing one's identity: "You are actually getting your own gratification by being the source of fuel for the other person."

Jim Cress [34:41]:
Jim points listeners to additional resources on boundaries, stressing their importance in maintaining personal well-being: "I would highly encourage you to check out that resource as well."

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Conclusion and Encouragement

The episode concludes with Jim and Joel acknowledging the heavy nature of the discussion and offering prayers for those affected by narcissism and BPD. They encourage listeners to seek professional help and to rely on their faith for strength and guidance.

Jim Cress [34:41]:
"We pray that this information has really helped you... Thank you so much for joining this episode of Therapy and Theology."

Shay Hill [34:53]:
Shay wraps up by encouraging listeners to share the episode and utilize free resources offered by Lysa TerKeurst to build trust and reconnect with God.

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Notable Quotes

• Jim Cress [06:31]:
  "If we repent, then, you know, it's a garden variety sin, but as it goes more intensely, you're going to have to get help for these tendencies."

• Joel Muddamalle [05:27]:
  "Prior to the Fall, we were human beings that had appropriate balance of appropriate self-love, but at the Fall, our hearts are curved inward."

• Jim Cress [13:08]:
  "The root is actually shame that pride helps cover up."

• Joel Muddamalle [22:08]:
  "I pray and say, Father, is this something that could be going on? Search my heart."

• Jim Cress [24:14]:
  "Emotional instability, hot and cold... a roller coaster up and down of emotions."

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Key Takeaways

1. Awareness Over Labeling: Understanding narcissism and BPD without hastily labeling individuals fosters healthier relationships and personal boundaries.

2. Theological Context: The concept of homo incurvitis in se helps contextualize human tendencies toward self-love and the need for redemption through faith.

3. Recognizing Signs: Identifying traits such as grandiosity in narcissism and emotional instability in BPD aids in navigating complex relationships.

4. Setting Boundaries: Establishing clear, consequence-based boundaries is essential for protecting one's well-being when dealing with narcissistic or borderline individuals.

5. Personal Healing: Engaging in self-reflection, prayer, and seeking professional help are crucial steps toward healing and maintaining healthy relationships.

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This episode of Therapy and Theology provides a compassionate and insightful exploration of Narcissism and Borderline Personality Disorder, blending psychological understanding with theological wisdom. Listeners are encouraged to apply the discussed strategies to foster healthier relationships and personal growth.

Transcript

[Lisa Turkhurst]

This season of Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Compassion International. Compassion brings real solutions to the poverty that so many children in today's world are facing, all in Jesus name and through the generosity of sponsors. Visit compassion.comproverbs 31 or click the link in our show notes to choose a child to sponsor today. As an added bonus, when you become a sponsor, Compassion will send you a copy of our study guide called the Beginning of All Wisdom. Now onto today's episode of Therapy and Theology.

[Shay Hill]

Hi friends. Welcome back to the Therapy and theology podcast by Proverbs 31 Ministries where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shay Hill, and I'm so excited for you to hear another great conversation from Lisa, Jim and Joel. Remember, each episode of this season is going to help you get out of any dysfunctional dances and be bravely honest about what you may be experiencing behind closed doors. Today they're going to talk about narcissism, which we have covered on the podcast before, but it's been a couple years and you guys had so many great questions so we had to circle back to it. They're also going to cover Borderline Personality Disorder. Before we jump in, I want to let you know about two things. First, we want to hear from you guys, our listeners. By clicking the link in our show notes. You can submit a question or even a voice memo for Lisa, Jim and Joel to listen to. Your question could be answered on a future episode, so make sure you check it out. Secondly, download a free resource by Lisa titled Trust Is A track record 5 Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness. This resource will provide you with prayers to declare when you want to stay connected to God. Guided journal prompts to help you work through your honest thoughts and struggles about trusting him and more because we help you work through what you walk through here on Therapy and theology. I wanted to make sure you knew about this free resource that could really help you just do that. So download it today using the link in our show notes. Now let's jump in to hear from Lisa, Jim and Joel.

[Jim]

In this episode, we're going to talk about narcissism and Borderline Personality Disorder. These are really heavy subjects and I want to say right from the top of this show that we are not trying to put labels on people and we don't want you to take the information that's presented and start thinking of all the different people who have this disorder in your life and labeling them and then looking at them through the lens of the label that you've now put on them. This is supposed to be informative and it's not supposed to be a diagnosis of anybody in your life. However, not labeling. But these can be containers of wisdom that you can be aware of as you are in certain relationships with certain patterns of behavior. And just be aware of this. And the more awareness that we have in a situation, the better we are able to navigate it. So, Jim, I'm gonna let you kind of carry the weight of this one. So first, can you help us understand sort of the context of narcissism and then also the context of borderline personality disorder?

[Joel]

Yeah. And we've talked so much and had a great day planning all this yesterday. And we're saying categories to think in. Interesting. There's some information here I do know. I will recount that when we did way back in therapy and theology, an episode somewhat touching on the topic of narcissism. We warned clearly on that podcast, please don't jump in and say, oh my word, I'm married to a narcissist. And I remember distinctively calling down here to talk to someone. I said, I was watching on YouTube. So when will this be released? I think it was 9:00 that morning. I went in soon, about, as we said that, started going through some information, diagnostic criteria. The comment section I was watching, I mean, I couldn't catch it. He's a narcissist. I married a narcissist. And so as much as we may warn, we have no control over that. But we're trying to be helpful to understand very low percentage of people diagnostically in America meet the criteria of narcissistic personality disorder. And one of the things around that is when there is a true personality disorder, most of the research and understanding is most of those are going to be very difficult, some say impossible to change. So I want to just do this, talk about some informative things, but not rush to that. People love doing it.

[Unknown]

I was just going to say, I think I remember when we were first having this conversation years ago, then even recently, there's some. I remember listening, sitting and listening to as you were kind of going through the characteristics. And I started sweating because I'm like, am I a narcissist? Like this is. And I think I asked you that, Jim, and you said something that was really helpful. And you said, well, actually everybody has some level of narcissistic tendencies inside of them. And so I think that that is just also a helpful kind of baseline of instead of using labels to Try to label people a certain way of just recognizing. Oh, there. And the theological principle behind that is there's this thing that happened in Genesis 3 called the Fall. And when the Fall happened, Martin Luther and John Calvin have this Latin phrase called homo incurvitis in se.

[Jim]

Okay, wait, you know you're going to say that again.

[Unknown]

They have a Latin phrase that's called homo incurvitis, say, which simply means humanity curved in. Upon itself.

[Joel]

What a picture.

[Unknown]

And so, you know, prior to the Fall, we were human beings that had appropriate balance of appropriate self love, but appropriate God love, like we're supposed to be fountains that poured out love and affection upon God and then we received appropriate love and affection. But at the Fall, our hearts are curved inward. And because our hearts are curved inward, we all have this tendency for self preservation. We all have a tendency towards self love. And so I just think that when you had said that, that was just such a helpful way for me to even recognize, oh, there's just tendencies that I might have that can be redeemed and can be restored and dealt with in the economy of the work of the Holy Spirit. And then there are also situations that are beyond just the everyday normal. And it would be wise for us to have just some diagnostic tips to help explore further conversations.

[Jim]

Absolutely. And I think just like you're referring to, there's, there's a spectrum, as with a lot of things. So you've got selfishness, like garden variety sin selfishness down here. And then as you move down the spectrum, you've got narcissistic tendencies, narcissistic traits, and then full blown narcissistic personality disorder, which Jim said is a diagnosis that you have to get. And it's a very small percentage of people who actually get diagnosed with that. And then that can even move into sociopathy, maybe even, you know, some other levels too. So. But I think finding ourselves on that spectrum and recognizing that, you know, there, there is self preservation happening at all these levels, but it's the intensity at which you, you put this out, you know, selfishness. But if we repent, then, you know, like it's a garden variety sin, you know, but, but as it goes more intensely, you're going to have to get help for these tendency, these traits, and certainly narcissistic personality disorder.

[Joel]

Yeah. And some of the signs. And we've now set this up beautifully, wonderfully. I thought you would remember too, because I'm confident I said it. Yay. Many years ago when you said, I mean, could I be a narcissist the.

[Unknown]

Fact that I asked the question, you remember? Yeah.

[Joel]

That usually. Now, look, guys, this is not always a proof. This is not. You know, you run with a Jim Said or they said on the podcast. But often when a person comes in and I'm reading their energy, I'm sitting with an incredible author who wrote a book on humility. I'm listening. Are they coming in curiously and saying, you know, I have. I look, took a test or I went on the Internet and took a test and I'm wondering, or somebody's called me a narcissist, I go, well, let's. Hey, let's have a little fun with this meaning. Let's talk about it. And if I sense humility, any level of brokenness, because a narcissistic person, let's say it that way, they're going to. Over a period of time, usually not even a long period of time, they'll show their hand, like grandiosity. That's going to be there. And other people could be grandiose without having to be a narcissist.

[Jim]

So tell me, how does that look in everyday life? Grandiosity.

[Joel]

The coach said one time, hey, boys, put your press clippings away, okay? You won the game. And this person is always going back or can always go back and brag on oneself. Look at me. Look what I've done. I've done this, I've done that. Walking in, even wanting to have a take over the room presence. But there's a grandiosity, like, you know, like you're going through town as the emperor or something like that. As we know, the emperor often has no clothes.

[Jim]

And can it also be like in a conversation, they always have a bigger, a better, a more tragic, you know, whatever? Like, totally.

[Unknown]

I call them the one upper.

[Jim]

Yeah, yeah. And it's like, oh, that's nice. However, you know. You think that was bad? No, I have the worst of the.

[Joel]

Worst of the worst seesaw effect of a narcissist. They will, even if it's slow, they will push you down, even if creatively. Oh, man, that is the worst story. Oh, maybe me, I share. Narcissists are seductive and they're a narcissist if you're around them. Because I've been around it many times and I got to tell you, they are kind for a moment. They will. Bless you. They will. It's kind of a reverse, you know, every narcissist has to have a supply, I think, like Dracula, basically. That's how they are. And they will literally Go around and try to suck the life out of the people. But sometimes they will give you life. They flip it because they are seducing you to pull you in. A narcissist is going to have an empath to survive. That's a person who's lost all their identity and says, yes, you are great. I am great. I am great. So they are going to have to have that supply. But inside, what looks like even false repentance or looks like they may be saying, am I really a narcissist? Over amount of time in relationship, they can only hold that beach ball down so long, and it will come up.

[Jim]

And it's not always external.

[Joel]

Right.

[Jim]

There are narcissism. I think that there's different categories.

[Joel]

That's the scary one for me. And I'm not calling that person. We've talked, you know, anecdotally about a. They could be a sociopath, at least a narcissist. The narcissist, you know, is going to care whether they make the news or not. If they do something, the sociopath doesn't care. So the idea is, I'm looking, is there narcissist? Typically, we're using that term very globally. Again, they don't do empathy. They have grandiosity. They want to be fawned over, worshiped, adored. And they might give you all kinds of wonderful things, blessings, whatever, gifts, if you're there. They have this massive sense of entitlement. They will exploit people for their own cause. And they are, as Raquel Lerner's book on narcissism. The object of my affection is in my reflection, which goes back to the narcissist totally. And so there's a sense that ultimately they will move around to the mirror. Aren't I something? They will envy other people. And if somebody, even in a healthy way, is over here seemingly stealing their thunder or getting more attention, remember, the narcissist is probably about 4 years old with that narcissistic wound. They must be the star of the show.

[Jim]

And I love that we can hear the train in the background because it's also, you know, even if they do great acts of love or generosity or whatever, they're gonna want to toot their own horn.

[Joel]

Truly, that was unplanned. Wonderful sound effect.

[Jim]

But also, there's. There's kind of a catch to their generosity, no doubt. Like, hey, if I'm going to be generous to you, then you are forever going to owe me something, you know, and. Or if, like, whatever the example is, like, if I am going to present you with the opportunity to be in a relationship with me. You always need to realize you're the lucky one.

[Shay Hill]

Right?

[Joel]

That's the hook. The quid pro quo, tit for tat. And then you know the answer to this. Just globally. I think we all do here. And then if you don't do what I need you to do, suddenly I'm not so nice. I've seen narcissists go from. It's happened in political office, it's happened in churches, it's happened in companies, wherever that that narcissist really will. If you stay in line and do not come at them in any way, you basically obey, you bless them, be their supply, you will get quite a bit of benefits. But the first time you say no, or I'm not doing this, or you point out like the emperor's new clothes, it was the kid who said he's naked going through town, that person's going to flip pretty bad. And to get back into good graces, if you get back in worshiping, I'm sorry, make amends, they'll let you back in. But you watch people like that, that kind of scorched earth policy, after you begin to say, I'm not going to be your supply anymore, I'm not going to co sign, they flip pretty quick.

[Jim]

Yeah. And I think one misunderstanding around narcissism is often we think that the root of narcissism is pride and the root is not pride. The root is actually shame that pride helps cover up.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Jim]

So. But that narcissistic wounding that you mentioned, I think that's important to understand too, that they have experienced something at some point in their life where this wound and sometimes it becomes this untouchable. Like they'll reveal part of the story, but not the whole story about what happened. But there's this wound and they cannot let people get close to that. So I just thought maybe if you want to touch on that too.

[Joel]

Yeah, I want to touch on a way that you may not have thought about at this setting, because I know we've talked about it, but one of the wounds there, and I do see it now more than anything. And again, if I may, this will probably get Joel's attention. You know, no, everybody doesn't deserve a trophy in the county league, the city league, and what we're doing is what's just true, what's happening is. Or you are the best, you will grow up to be president. There's a place for affirmations. But this over affirming In a culture of little narcissists, running around is not the wound. You're thinking, well, mama left, daddy left, there was a divorce, they were sexually abused. But this either a having a narcissistic parent or two and or they were just over affirmed and over praised and, and that is also a narcissistic wound. A lot of times we don't want to look at it that way.

[Jim]

Or maybe a lie that they started to believe that turned into a liability. That is the wound.

[Joel]

Yeah. That happens even among siblings. And saying why is this person like they're the. When we do family role stuff, like they're the hero, they're the golden child, they're whatever else. And sometimes it's like heavy as the head that wears that crown. That's for all of us with children, grandchildren, whoever, just be mindful. There's a place to praise and affirm and there's a place to right size that. But it's like literally just you will be everything. Sometimes different program that leads to what we call enmeshment or emotional incest. That literally a parent has the little boy or the little girl and just fawning and saying praise over like that that kid can grow up and go, you know, mom says, or dad says, I've been amazing. Again, I see it in the sporting metaphor where I've worked with many coaches and they come in and say it is a nightmare because their kid was a rock star in a little dinky town and they moved up into a bigger high school and the parents are livid that Johnny is Michael Jordan or something, you know, and it's like, no, he's not.

[Jim]

Hi, friends.

[Lisa Turkhurst]

I hope you're enjoying this episode of Therapy and Theology. Before we hear what's next, I want to pause and thank our partner for season eight, Compassion International. For years, Proverbs 31 Ministries is stood alongside Compassion International because we love their mission. Bring real solutions to the poverty that so many children in today's world are facing in Jesus name. I've seen Compassion's impact myself through the letters and updates I've received from the child I sponsor. Several of my teammates here at Proverbs 31 sponsor children as well. And we would all tell you the same thing. The work Compassion is doing is truly amazing. When you sponsor a child, you ensure access to quality education, medical checkups, healthy food, clean water, and most importantly, the love of Jesus, all delivered through their church. In their community, Compassion isn't just changing the lives of children. It's changing entire families and whole communities. In need. And it's also changed me. So today I hope you'll join me in sponsoring a child through compassion. All you have to do is pull out your phone and text Proverbs 3:1 with no spaces to 83393. That's Proverbs 3:1 with no Spaces to 83393. You'll get a text back with a picture of a child who is waiting for a sponsor and a link to sponsor that child. You can also go to compassion.comproverbs 31 to sponsor child. And when you become a sponsor, Compassion will send you a copy of our study guide titled the Beginning of All Wisdom as our way of saying thank you for investing in the life of a child. Thank you for joining me in sponsoring a child through compassion today. Now back to the show.

[Jim]

Okay, so let's say we're listening and we realize, okay, not labeling, but containing, that this is information to help make us wise, that we suspect we're in a relationship with a narcissist. And now what do we do?

[Joel]

Well, a great book again, bestseller, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. You know, a boundary without a consequence, we've said it many times, is a mere suggestion. A boundary is not you coming in with a ball batter going, I'm boundering you. But to begin to first see things where they are, contemplate less on the narcissistic person, but on you. And to say, have I been a supply? What's been my. Very gently here, what's my payoff? And there's been a lot of rewards being in a relationship with a narcissist, whatever.

[Jim]

Give me some examples of being the.

[Joel]

Supply, having to praise the person, the person is there. And supply would be, you see something, you know, that's not cool what's going on, or it's even wrong, or it's hurtful, but you don't say anything. You're constantly. They will demand, I want this, I want sex. I'll do whatever I want with my money, our money, I'll do. So that idea is I'm there to feed them constantly so that they know if I keep them full. A lot of people, if you're full, my dog, if it's full, doesn't want to necessarily just keep eating. So I'm constantly there and basically letting the narcissist have his or her own way. Female narcissism, too. And. And they're there to kind of get by and do whatever they want. There is no, you know, in that. With the person who's in the experientially, if you're in the supply the empath there, you don't have a me. Now you do. Theologically, of course, you have a me, but you'll lose it. Everything is about that other person. But that other person who is narcissistic will give you benefits.

[Unknown]

I think it's a displaced me. I think it's not that you lose the me. It's not that you actually now find your me in as a conduit through that other person. And I think a lot of times what happens, like with the concept of humility, there's this false humility in it, you know, where you're like, oh, I'm just serving. Oh, I'm just being kind.

[Joel]

That's rationalization.

[Unknown]

Yeah, you're rationalizing. And you know, when I was researching on humility, one of the things that I found was the most devastating types of humility is the fruit of the spirit turned inward. And I call it this hidden pride where it's think about the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness. Right? When it becomes inverted, the goal, the fruit of the spirit is always the edification of God's people and the glorification of God. So it's always aimed outward. But when you leverage the fruit of the spirit inward, it actually becomes about your self glorification and your self edification. And in this context, with the narcissistic kind of relationship, which you'll find out is you are actually getting your own gratification by being the source of fuel for the other person. So you're giving them all the love, joy, the peace, the patience, the kindness. And there is some sort of payoff that is in that relationship.

[Joel]

The rationalization too, to tie into that, wonderfully put by you is I call it, well, at least that. And then fill in the blank. Well, at least he has been faithful as far as you know, at least he provides a good living, or at least he actually goes to church or does this, or at least he coaches the kids soccer. And I would argue, and at least he's fairly predictable. And sorry, we're saying he, it could be she too. At least he's this. So that rationalization in the supply in that empath is. And after a while it's like, you know what the devil I know is better than the devil I don't know. That's a smart rationalization at one level until it becomes destructive.

[Jim]

So the number one suggestion, if you suspect that you're in a relationship with a narcissist and some of the telltale signs of that is you always have to think about what this other person needs. You have to anticipate it to the point where you're sacrificing what you need.

[Joel]

Walking on eggshells maybe, too. Be careful, be careful. That's just. Man, that's a lot of cortisol in the body just walking around like that.

[Jim]

Right. And so to start to draw boundaries, though, you know, boundaries always need a consequence. They also will have a cost, no doubt. And so the narcissist, like, probably. We've never met a true narcissist that likes a boundary ever.

[Joel]

Yeah, I think you're right.

[Jim]

And so what do we do? Like, do we just wake up one day and go, okay, I am no longer willing to blank or what? Like, how do we even start that process?

[Joel]

Well, I've got a thought. When we've talked about from Scott Pick that Mental health and spiritual health is a commitment to reality. I still hear it all day long. People hear this. It's a commitment to reality. I didn't hear that last part. I mean, people will leave it off. Quoting it at all cost is the most important part. It is not a commitment to reality. So what will it cost me? I like how you said, I wake up and I may say first I've got to name it. Without pointing a long, bony finger of judgment at my. He's just a narcissist. I began to say, you know, I kind of think that these signs and there's a lot more you can always Google and read on the Internet or books that are out there. I think this could be going on. I pray and say, father, is this something that could be going on? Search my heart. Could I be an empath and a supply. Very gentle with yourself. Once you begin to have a dawning and awareness, like, you know, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. So there, I think like Mary pondered these things in her heart. Don't just jump and get into accusing or talking. Be wise. And then I would contemplate what boundaries do I need to start with and begin to go in. And if someone's treating me wrong, or sometimes a simple boundary is no, or, you know, my language, I'll say, no, thank you for asking, and I don't have that to give. Or that doesn't work for me.

[Jim]

And I think rather than labeling like, okay, he's a narcissist, or okay, she's a narcissist, I think the more helpful thing is let me list out what I'm experiencing. And then like our wise friend Leslie says. Leslie Burnick. Amazing. Here's my problem with their problem, here's my problem with his problem. So these are the things that I'm experiencing and I cannot force him to change. I cannot force a fix to his behaviors. But I do need to recognize how it's impacting me. And then here is my problem with their problem. And you then have agency to start addressing your problems. Okay, let's shift now to borderline personality disorder.

[Joel]

Yeah, I mean I'd be glad to shift. These are in my experience in the therapy realm and just in the pop realm generally. These are probably the two biggest ones I see and they're shaming usually how they're spoken. He's just a narcissist or she's a narcissist because she even a woman, very successful, the head of a major Fortune 500 company. It's like there's this thought right away where she must be a narcissist or you're a borderline. And there's a lot of, you know, the narcissist of. It's almost like ahaha, they're a narcissist. But the borderline is the word. Like she's crazy, he's crazy. So with a borderline, just think of here is the borderline where we are in Charlotte. We're right up against the border of South Carolina, North Carolina is that borderline will walk the borderline between true reality and psychosis. True reality, reality and not reality. Some telltale signs. You might see a big one again. It might vary and fluctuate. But emotional instability, hot and cold. Especially early on. As I've been a therapist for years. If I've worked with someone who may have some borderline tendencies. I know it's a dangerous thing when early on they are over fawning at me and praising me. You're the best. Because it feels good. I like words of affirmation, but what they'll do is they'll begin and they're hijacking and hot wiring a connection with you fast to say you're the best. I've heard you're the best. I come here like this sometimes. They've said, oh by the way, I've seen six other therapists so I know I'm number seven. So we've got a problem. But they will have that where there's a lot of kind of like a narcissist. They mirror in many ways. They're seducing, praising their emotions. That's why we use dialectal behavioral therapy. You can Google that DBT for this. There's just this roller coaster up and down of emotions. You'll see a lot of anger. With a borderline person, I think quicker than with a narcissist. If you boundary them because we say feed the narcissist, what we're saying to help them is feedback some of their stuff. You're kind of sneakily exposing them. But you confront, you boundary the borderline inside. You say no, you can't call me at 3 in the morning, or no, we don't get 10 extra minutes in the session or you don't and pretty quickly you're actually doing something healthy, they will begin to blow up. Obviously they can be very impulsive. They will either threaten self harm or they will actually commit self harm. And there's a huge trauma story behind any borderline person that I've seen. And like in the victim triangle, respectfully, when I see just a litany of blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, blaming other people left and right, I think that can be a sign. Also, it's somewhat a narcissistic to land this with borderline is suspicion, even to the point of paranoia. That paranoia can be really big. Like this is what you're like. No, I'm just saying it's a kind of a blue pen. No, it's more than that. And you'll see this. It doesn't often come on early, but inside there's a person. There's a great book. Stop Walking on Eggshells. Literally, it can be crazy making their whipping this way. Talk about relational whiplash over here. Very dysregulated and all like that. See the person not the problem, please see the person not the personality disorder. Right? Yeah, a lot of compassion.

[Jim]

And so then if I'm in a relationship with someone who has these traits of borderline personality disorder, what do I do? Like, what do I need to realize? How do I need to think? How do I navigate the instability? Because it's hard to be in a relationship where you're with someone. You never quite know what you're going to get.

[Joel]

Well, if you think about this is a true story, you've asked me before. Jim, share a true story. I was working with a person once and walking on egg. This person was. Was walking on eggshells with a person walking on eggshells, which is that book title. And he came in and said, I've got a victory story. I go, I love it. What is it? He said, I stopped walking on eggshells. I Said, really? What did you do? His words were on every I start stomping on eggshells and I've splattered yolk all up and down this person. And so inside the idea there is don't go from one extreme to the other. So to stop walking on eggshells to consider what will be what if you're the child of someone whose parent was borderline or narcissistic, what will this cost me? Now I'm speaking mainly to adults here because with young children, I mean there's only so much power they have. But to look and say I need to be prepared that that borderline may turn, may gossip behind my back, they may threaten their own self harm, they may blame me saying you call yourself a Christian. That happened to me once in a family situation years ago and I went, wow. So be prepared that they may go scorched earth on you. And be prepared that sometimes in a family system or just with friends like this person, you know, the person just loved. The parent just loved and the other one of their siblings they didn't love and they turned. That's that kind of almost an identified patient that why sometimes I can figure it out with people in their story, sometimes I can't. But this person is almost worshiped like a child and this person's not. So part of that is the cost of doing that and then getting oneself to safety. Especially for adults watching or listening is you often have to move away from family of origin and develop family of choice. You literally build. We are called the family of God after all. And then I hope this sounds right because I mean it from my heart, Word of God, don't answer a fool according to their folly and don't cast your pearls before swine. Almost like I just wish I could get this person to just see. I would pay for therapy, I would do anything. I own my stuff. And that's hustling for your worthiness and relationship with borderline or narcissistic personality, not disorder. Don't want to do that. But it's going to take grief. It's going to take grief to back up from all that and realize the other person goes on and can talk about you, cut you down, whatever else.

[Unknown]

I think if you're going to be, if you're going to take an adequate look at the cost of what it is, it's gonna require humility. Like humility, simply self awareness. It's an awareness of who you are in light of who God is so you can rightly relate to other people and I just keep thinking about why is it in your. Every time you use that quote Jim, at the very end you start to mumble, you know, at all costs. And I think it's because part of it is just in our. In our own humanity. Like there's a sacrifice to deal with that cost.

[Joel]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And I just wonder at some level are we gonna be okay with that cost.

[Jim]

But there's a cost on both sides.

[Joel]

Zero doubt.

[Jim]

There's a cost if you stay in close proximity of that person. And there's a cost if you start to remove yourselves from really damaging, dysfunctional and often destructive situations. And by remove I don't mean like immediately abandon that person but. But like start pulling back a little bit so that the proximity isn't so close that they have the ability to destroy you. Right, right. So there's a cost if you stay. There's a cost if you start drawing those boundaries. And I think we have to have some really good self awareness on both sides of that. Yeah. I've also heard that borderline, they have an extreme fear of abandonment.

[Joel]

Totally. That's one of the biggest ones. And thank you for bringing us back to that. So inside they may had been abandoned at a child. I've never seen one that I've worked with. People who I get have so much compassion for if they have like borderline qualities. That's why I mean got to do story work people. I wish pastors and Christian leaders as they could or discipleship. Let's at least somewhat get their story out. There'll be either, you know, maybe at least three A's. I'll do four Aus. There are abandonment issues for sure. Addiction. It's not hard. A lot of homes have addiction. We're not even paying attention to abandonment addiction. This idea that can go on where there's abuse at some level and I know experience a high level of sexual abuse and then attachment, meaning the lack thereof. So the idea of there was not healthy attachment. I mean that's a lot that's in there. And I begin to look at the narrative behind that. And again there's treatment my daughter has done as she's finishing her master's in counseling in a whole center. And all they do is deal with treat borderline people. People who are struggling with that and seeing people. It's a hard road. But people be able to get set free with certain therapies and working through things. That's not one of your five sessions and you're done. But if people want to do that, they learn a system of healthy coping. They learn awareness. So narcissism too. And that's a big. People will say, well, you know, most narcissists don't change. Sorry, basketball player, but I like a good challenge. I am fairly competitive, whether it seems like I am or not. And I'm like, brother, ma'am, whoever, let's prove them wrong. And you say, well, you're just being a supply and empath. Maybe I am. But I'm like, we're going to go against the odds, but if Saul can become Paul and we have the gospel, if you want to do that, it's going to take. We're not going to do two sessions and you're done. If we. Because what? What? I don't work out, I'll act out. But let's go in and with the power of Christ, do the work. It's going to take some hard work. Right? Let's prove the stats wrong. Even if I lose with that, I, at least, as Stonewall Jackson said, throw everything into the fight. I'm going to do everything I can for my clients and leave the outcome to them and God, because this is curse, they'll never change. I'm like, put God back in this thing. Anything's possible.

[Jim]

And we've done previous episodes here before on Boundaries. And so that's one of the main things you've heard with a situation that you're dealing with someone on the spectrum of narcissism or you're dealing with someone on the spectrum of borderline personality disorder. I think it's going to be really crucial that we realize we cannot put boundaries on another person to force them to change. If they are unwilling or incapable of making those changes for themselves himself, then what do you do? You put boundaries around yourself. For more information on that, you can listen to one of the previous episodes right here at Therapy and Theology on Boundaries. We'll put some links so that you can easily access those. But also, I do have a book, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. I would highly encourage you to check out that resource as well. Jim, Joel, I know today in this subject this was kind of a really heavy, hard one.

[Joel]

It is.

[Jim]

But we pray that this information has really helped you. Again, we are not telling you what to think, but we're giving you a lot to think about. Thank you so much for joining this episode of Therapy and Theology.

[Shay Hill]

Lisa, Jim and Joel, thank you so much for today's conversation. Friend. After listening, there's a lot you can do with what you heard today. First, I would encourage you to share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it, send them the link to listen, then maybe go grab coffee and talk it over together. Or, like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you might find yourself in a really difficult place of feeling distant from God, questioning if his plans for you are really good, or maybe something else. If that's you, I want you to know that we deeply understand, but we also want to help. That's why I want to remind you about Lisa Turker's free resource titled Trust is a Track Record 5 Scriptural Truths to remember God's faithfulness. Download it today using the link in our show notes. That's all for today, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in to Therapy and Theology. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.