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- [00:04]
Shea Hill
This episode of Therapy and Theology is brought to you by our friends at Chosen, a nonprofit that equips parents and caregivers with tools to help children heal. They're offering an exclusive webinar training for our listeners all about understanding attachment styles and how your past may be impacting your reactions to their behavior. Because you're a veteran valued Therapy and Theology podcast listener, you get exclusive Access for just $10 head to Chosen Care P31 that's Chosen Care P31 to register and be equipped to bring a deeper connection into your home.
- [00:53]
Hi friend, welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shea Hill, and I'm so glad you're joining me today for this special summer miniseries on Red Flags. In this episode, Lisa, Jim and Joel will cover questions like Is every red flag a big deal? And how is this red flag actually impacting me? But before we dive in, I have a few things that I want to share with you. First, you know we are all about equipping you with resources to help you even after an episode ends. So for this mini series, make sure you download a free resource by Lisa Terkers titled is this 15 Red Flags yous May Be Missing in youn Relationships? This resource will help you get honest about the effects unhealthy relational dynamics are having on you with a guided list to process through so you can tend to your own emotional well being in a biblical way. Next, I thought it would be fun to share this review from one of you guys. Here's what this listener said. I'm so thankful for this podcast. It has helped me work through so many issues in my life and enabled me to step outside of my whirlwind of emotions and and plant my feet on the truth, the Word of God. I hope this podcast continues. You are changing lives guys. Isn't that awesome? We love hearing how therapy and theology is making a difference in your life and we'd love to hear your story too. So just leave a rating and a written review and maybe I'll share it in an upcoming episode. Or you can even leave us a voice memo or a specific question by following the link to our listener mail in the show notes below. Lastly, we'd be so appreciative if you'd partner with Proverbs 31 Ministries financially to continue making the life changing content on the therapy and the podcast. Simply go to proverbs31.org backslash give to make a one time donation. Or you can Even partner with us monthly. Now onto the show.
- [02:36]
Lisa TerKeurst
Welcome to Therapy and Theology. I'm Lisa Terker. This is Jim Kress and Dr. Joel Mutamali. Really, you guys just don't even need introductions at this point, right? I could just say, this is our friend Jim, our friend Joel, and we would all be fine. We've been doing a very interesting look at trust in relationships. I've just written a book called I want to trust you, but I don't. And I think it's important for us to understand, like we covered in the first session, what is trust in a relationship. And when I looked at the two important factors, I really think it's connection and safety. We need to keep those in balance. And then we also considered that trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. And. But what do we do when we're in a relationship and we start to get this whoa, ick feeling that something's wrong? I don't feel safe. I feel like the connection is disintegrating a bit. I am worried that I can't trust you, but I'm not exactly sure why. So we want to examine these roots of distrust that may exist in a current relationship you have. But also these same roots of distrust can serve as red flags to consider when looking at potential relationships.
- [03:57]
Jim Kress
Hey, can we acknowledge the fourth member of Therapy and Theology?
- [04:00]
Lisa TerKeurst
I was just about to.
- [04:01]
Jim Kress
Lord Jesus Christ. I'm teeing it up because I am fascinated by this, my friend.
- [04:08]
Lisa TerKeurst
Well, if you hear a lot of God's power being demonstrated outside, it's because we are currently in a pretty impressive thunderstorm.
- [04:18]
Jim Kress
And with the red flag thing, like God is literally speaking for me through these recordings is to say, I want to peek out the window there. For us, at least we heard it just thunder. And I think, is this tornadic? We're safe, all that. But the idea, these are like red flags going off. These are like things going on and are like, ah, it's just whatever. Or do I begin to check things out often? God is allowing signs to come along. There's. There are these spectrums that we're trying to say, is that this is a great thing for weather. Is this tornadic? No. Is it just this? Is it light rainfall, but without checking your weather forecast saying, let me see what's really happening here. One can't really know.
- [04:56]
Lisa TerKeurst
Right. Jim, that was so brilliant. You just did that on the fly.
- [05:00]
Jim Kress
Yeah, well, of course.
- [05:01]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
And you said tornadic, which I've never heard before.
- [05:04]
Lisa TerKeurst
And so now I'm like, super tornado, like Ish might happen. Yeah, yeah, I know.
- [05:10]
Jim Kress
Convincing ChatGPT will give you everything you need.
- [05:12]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Oh, no, I don't need ChatGPT when I got chat. Jim Cross.
- [05:17]
Lisa TerKeurst
That's a whole subject matter for a different show.
- [05:19]
Jim Kress
Okay, this is a different show.
- [05:20]
Lisa TerKeurst
All right, so we have already covered some of the red flags that I talk about in my book. I want to trust you, but I don't. I identify 11. We went through six in our previous episode. Those were incongruity, insincerity, self centeredness, immaturity, immorality, incompetence. There are more, but those are the ones that we started off with. So now that we've identified some of the red flags, Roots of distrust. I want to talk about some spectrums. You know, when we're talking about medical issues or even emotional issues or other kind of issues where there's this end of the spectrum that's pretty severe, this end of the spectrum that maybe is inconvenient or disappointing or it's present, but it's not super concerning. Right. So there's the spectrum. I want to cover the spectrums. When it talks about red flags or when we're having this discussion on red flags, it's important to identify the red flags like we've already done. But it's equally as crucial to assess how serious are these? How big of a deal is this? Yeah, I'm sensing insincerity. How big of a deal is this? But I also want to add, how big of a deal is this to me in the context of our relationship? How important is this to you in the context of our relationship? So let's jump right in. Are you ready?
- [06:51]
Jim Kress
I'm ready to go.
- [06:52]
Lisa TerKeurst
The first one. Spectrum of severity, how critical is this? So when we look at severity, this is major problematic, like life altering, Right. All the way to. This is kind of inconvenient, Right. It's not necessarily that I like it. It's disappointing that it exists. It's not going to. It's not going to destroy the relationship. Right. So those are opposite ends of the.
- [07:21]
Jim Kress
Spectrum and everything in between, right?
- [07:23]
Lisa TerKeurst
That's right.
- [07:23]
Jim Kress
I use spectrums in counseling, in groups. I lead. And we'll say, you know, fear spectrum. You're totally scared to death over here. You're pretty cool. And then we always say everything in between. The people go. They line up and go. That's kind of where this is. So everything in between.
- [07:38]
Lisa TerKeurst
And we have to remember relationship dysfunction, relationship trauma, however you want to phrase it, according to. According to how serious it is. To you or to the relationship. Every trauma is fact and impact. We've talked about that before here on therapy and theology. Here's the fact of what happened. But often the severity is going to be found not just in the facts of what happened, but in the impact. What did this do to you? How does it affect you? How serious is this continuing to affect you? So as you look at spectrum of severity, I think we have to assess what impact is this having on me. I was reading a scripture the other day and this would be severity on the most serious side. It's from Psalm 36, verse 1 and it continues on through verse 4. I have a message from God in my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked. There is no fear of God before their eyes. In their own eyes they flatter themselves too much to detect or hate their sin. The words of their mouths are wicked and deceitful. They fail to act wisely or do good. Even on their beds they plot evil. They commit themselves to a sinful course and do not reject what is wrong.
- [08:56]
Jim Kress
They're busy.
- [08:57]
Lisa TerKeurst
That's pretty severe, right?
- [09:00]
Jim Kress
Did you plan that.
- [09:05]
Lisa TerKeurst
So you can see like wow, dealing with a person that they're demonstrating these kinds of red flags. I mean that that is severe on this end of the spectrum. All the way to this end of the spectrum. Like yeah, I notice it. Yeah, I don't like it, but it's not having that much of an impact on me. I don't know if either of you guys want to comment on spectrum of severity.
- [09:29]
Jim Kress
I like to the comment I have just experientially listed to it here in this psalm is I'm like, wow. It's like I kept hearing as you read that it literally kept moving on this spectrum of severity. Like it to me kept getting more. If I'd never heard that verse before that passage more severe, more severe. And I'm thinking as a therapist, more neurochemical wiring and neural pathways of the brain. Aristotle again we are, but we repeatedly do. I'm like, after a while I'm like, wow, you're going to be so over here. Almost to the point of no return. Like no self awareness. Thus in self deception progress. I heard the fact of it, but I heard the progression. Like you're just running right down to the very bottom of this where maybe passed upon a no return.
- [10:15]
Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah, it looks like in Psalm 36 it's like they. There is no fear of God before their eyes. So that is where you know the wisdom. Wisdom starts with the fear of the Lord, right? And so there is no wisdom and then there's no self awareness. It's all self centeredness. It comes out in the words that they speak, it comes out in their actions, it comes out in their intentions. And then it goes all the way to the fact where they're not just doing wrong things or sinful behaviors, but they are actually plotting evil and committing themselves to a course that is sinful all the way to the point where they don't even reject what is wrong. So when talking about severity, I mean severity, this, this is like, this is tornadic or hurricane.
- [11:06]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
There does seem to be a direct connection too with the severity of which we have a honest awe, reverential fear of God, with the severity of its absence in our lives. Right. So to have like, I'm reading from CSB here, kind of like what they do with the translation of the Hebrew word, to have this dread, to have a trembling, to have this awareness that just like right now, if we were not inside of this room and we were outside and we heard that thunder and that lightning and we felt the severity of the rain on our heads, it would cause action.
- [11:39]
Jim Kress
Yeah, right.
- [11:39]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Like we're not just going to be.
- [11:40]
Jim Kress
Like automatically we would get in. Shut up.
- [11:43]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
That's exactly right. And so what actually happens here happening through Psalm 36 is there's a self deception that's happening because they have flattered themselves with their own opinions. And so there is a direct connection to the severity of which they are, to the extreme, flattering themselves and dishonoring the grandeur of God that is going to be absolutely destructive in their lives.
- [12:07]
Lisa TerKeurst
So again, when thinking of the spectrum of severity, think about not just the facts of what they're doing, but the impact this is having on you. All right, next spectrum is spectrum of occurrence. How often is this happening? Is it happening all the time? Is it happening sometimes? Is it happening occasionally? Is it happening? But not very often because the spectrum of occurrence also factors into how severe this is impacting you. Would you agree, Jim?
- [12:36]
Jim Kress
Yeah, I would. And I think that from both sides of me, if I'm, if I'm the person going down the spectrum myself, then I'm like, I fear that it's occurring so many times I literally will be unaware. It's like, well, this just becomes my norm. Often what we call rituals, if I'm in, somebody's in relationship with me and they see that after a while what goes on for that person like this, this is the hundredth time they've done it. This is the thirtieth time they've done it. Where am I in my story? When I see this person? They've done it a bunch. Now this is a pattern. This is not just, well, they had a bad day. What goes on in me, because what I tolerate persists. I'm always going to think story, right? Where am I? If it's hysterical, it's historical in my story that I've seen a bunch of this person do the same pattern. And I keep kind of cool co signing it. So where am I?
- [13:28]
Lisa TerKeurst
So let's make it specific. Let's say that it is an issue where they're lying, they're not telling the truth. So on this, when talking about severity on this end of the currents, it's like they stretch the details of stories. You know, they're telling a story and they're kind of caught up in the energy of it, the hypeness of it or whatever. So they're stretching details all the way to this end. Like that's full on the betrayal, right? So that's the severity. Now imagine when you combine that with occurrence, like if they are telling stories and stretching this truth, occasionally that may be something that you're like, well, I wish they wouldn't do that. But the impact on me is not tremendous. It's just an aggravation, you know, and maybe we have a conversation, maybe it gets better, maybe it doesn't. And you got to consider the ramifications of that. But if it is that they are full on betraying and they're doing it often, or even they're stretching the truth in stories, but they're doing it so often that now it feels like they're stretching the truth in every dynamic. Then when you combine those two, the spectrum of severity, the spectrum of occurrence, you start to get a real gauge of what impact this is going to have on you.
- [14:44]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Yeah. And the spectrum of occurrence, I want to read from Colossians 3, saying this other day, and it's another one of those vice lists, you know, where Paul's talking about verse five, therefore put to death what belongs to your earthly nature. And this lists sexual immorality, impurity laws, like all these things. And then in verse 8, but now put away all the falling anger, wrath. Right, all this. But the thing that really caught me and goes directly with what you're saying, Elise, is in verse nine, Paul says, do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old self with its practices.
- [15:15]
Lisa TerKeurst
And I think the key word there.
- [15:17]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Is practices, no doubt about it. So the occurrence. So I want to make this connection. Theologically, occurrences don't happen arbitrary and separated from intentionality. At some point in time, there might be like a randomness to it. But occurrences that happen over and over are no longer just random occurrences. They are practices. And the things that we practice, you and I will produce. And what Paul is saying here is this list of things that you're practicing is going to produce death in your life. So put off that why and put on the list of the virtues of the Kingdom of God. In verses 12, you know, compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, patience. When we're practicing these things, we're practicing participating in the life of Christ. And so you have the occurrence of it. But that occurrence, we should never disconnect it from the intentionality of the practice and what it's actually producing.
- [16:19]
Shea Hill
Now let's take a quick break to share about our sponsor for this episode, Chosen. Chosen is a nonprofit that equips parents and kids caregivers with tools to help children heal. As a parent to five children and now Gigi to eight adorable grandchildren, I care so deeply about children's hearts, how they process or don't process, their emotions, their struggles, and a path toward healing. If you're a parent, maybe you've wondered why your child pushes away when you desperately want them to lean in. This is connected to a topic called Attachment Styles that we've discussed here on Therapy and Theology. As you explore both your own attachment style and your child's, our friends at Chosen are here to support you with compassionate trauma informed guidance. I'm excited to announce they're offering an exclusive interactive webinar to help parents and caregivers gain insight into why certain behaviors are so triggering. Learn the different types of attachment styles and discover how to build stronger connections with your child. No matter what your own upbringing, you'll walk away with practical tools that can make a real difference for you and your family. And here's the best part. Because you're a valued therapy and theology listener, you get access for just $10. So take advantage of this opportunity and head to chosen care p.31 that's chosen care p.31 to register for the webinar that's chosen care p.31. Now back to the episode.
- [18:02]
Lisa TerKeurst
Can I.
- [18:02]
Jim Kress
Speak to that real quick? I want people to ponder not I use Colossians 3 and counseling on a daily basis to ponder not being in the Puritans called it mortify and vivify.
- [18:13]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
John Owen Killing sin or sin will.
- [18:15]
Jim Kress
Kill the deeds of the flesh. And then everybody stops. Behavioral mod I get it. But vivify, vivacious, Give life to what's most alive in you as a Christian. So a person can do sin management and stop in these spectrums, including of severity and occurrence and stop doing the sin, just kind of white knuckling it or AAR recovery. People know dry drunking it. Oh, they stopped doing this. I stop and say that's neutral. Are they putting on, are they vivifying? Are they giving life to what's alive? Problem? If they don't have Christ in them and they're not aware of it or even walking in some of Christ's truth, whatever you want to call it, they're not going to put on these latter parts of Joel. Just read and that's a sign. Back to red flags. Whatever I observe and say, I don't see. See the other part of Colossians 3 coming on. That's information for me in a relationship of any type. And I go, I want to make a note of that.
- [19:12]
Lisa TerKeurst
So back to our practical example. Lying. All right, so we've considered the spectrum of severity. How severe is it? Stretching details on one end of the spectrum all the way to full on betrayal and lying about incredibly important things. So you can see the spectrum of severity. How often is it happening? Spectrum of occurrence. So I used to stop there. I used to say, okay, those are the two spectrums that I want you to remember. And for the sake of analyzing, if you want to start there, I think that's great. I want to continue though with a few other spectrums. The next one is spectrum of risk. How much will this potentially cost you emotionally, financially, mentally, spiritually, physically? So the risk is going to be higher the more intimacy you share with this person. In other words, if you are in a very close relationship, like a marriage, then the risk financially may be massive to you. If this person is lying about your finances, if they're having secret credit cards, if they are having secret accounts, if they're using money in ways that if you knew about it, you would be devastated. So you've got to think about based on how close of a relationship this is, what are the risks that I'm taking if I choose not to pay attention to this red flag or I choose to overlook this route of distrust.
- [20:44]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
So good.
- [20:45]
Jim Kress
I think so much of the. Which we did this before, we've done actually a number of times for anyone, any level of like sexual infidelity, say in a marriage. And that idea that is so huge. And you know this, and many people may know this, the severity that goes on of what can happen to one's self physically in the body. We know the book. The body keeps the score. Whether that's STDs passed on something else or just cortisol levels where you're so stressed, you know, the red flags, you see it, it is severe, it occurs a lot. And you're literally, you know, just literally hurting and harming yourself by tolerating this. The physical realm gets so broad there when you're with. As we're going down through this list of what it does to harm one physically.
- [21:33]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Yeah.
- [21:34]
Lisa TerKeurst
So when talking about fact and impact, course we've talked about severity, we've talked about occurrence. But in the spectrum of risk, count the cost. That's really what it is. Count the cost. Like, how much is this really costing me? And again, financially, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically, you know, and on down the line.
- [21:54]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Can I just make that encouragement too? As you're counting the cost, fight against the tendency to count the cost individualistically.
- [22:00]
Jim Kress
Say more.
- [22:00]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
You know, the Bible consistently is less concerned with me, myself and I, and more concerned with how you are in relationship to the family of God and the people that are around you most of the time. When Paul is talking about you, you know this. Jim and Lisa, I've said this before, that Paul's language of you throughout the New Testament is often second person plural, you all, you all or y'. All. And so I do think this, like, risk, like, make it a practice, like talking about practicing, like practice. I do this personally. Right. What is the cost associated with one ridiculously silly decision that could derail my entire family, my children. Right. I'm practicing the thought not in a fearful, horrific, you know, but in an honest way. So that as I'm assessing the risk of that these things are going to become the guardrails that the Holy Spirit, Spirit is going to bring to mind as I think of not just myself, because pride is always like, you know, it's just you, yourself and yourself. That's it. It's not going to mess with anybody else. You're going to be totally good. When in reality it's always messing with other people. It's always destructive to the people that you're doing in life. And they are innocent in so much of this. And so the question is, do you want to really participate in that?
- [23:15]
Lisa TerKeurst
The next one is spectrum of proximity, which goes right along with spectrum of risk, because again, the closer you are to the person, the higher the risk. So that's going to really give you a spectrum of risk. But the Spectrum of proximity means how often is this person interacting with you? Like, how often are you with them? Is this someone you live with and see every day? Is this someone you interact with daily or is this just someone you see on occasion? Because that spectrum of proximity is also going to matter because it feels feeds right into how much this is going to impact you.
- [23:49]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Yes.
- [23:49]
Jim Kress
Some people, by the way, get a year's worth of proximity and toxic behavior with people they're around at the holidays. That's enough to film. Yeah. Just one point in time, one period, one gathering, whether it's family or whoever, is enough to fill me up. And I've got enough to deal with in therapy for the next three or four months. Right. So that piece I like, when you talk about this proximity, people think, well, I'm around them a lot. Well, maybe I'm not around them a lot all the time, but I'm around them intensely for three days and then after that, that's enough for me to deal with for months.
- [24:24]
Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah. And I think also, like considering not only proximity of how often am I with them, but also proximity of how. What kind of weight does this person, when they speak to me, what kind of weight do their words have on me?
- [24:40]
Jim Kress
You know, say, what kind of weight do I give them? The gravitas of their impact, their words that I may be unaware, but I'm actually giving them the power.
- [24:48]
Lisa TerKeurst
Yeah. So it's not just like, okay, we're physically together, but proximity is like, how close is this person? How. How much do their words impact me? How much do their actions impact me because of the proximity to the closeness that I have with this person too? The last one is spectrum of tolerance. In this season of your life, how much of this are you willing to tolerate? This scale may look like this. Like on one end, I am never okay with this. Like, this is a deal breaker. I am never okay with this. In the middle, I can sometimes tolerate this. I would prefer not to, but, you know, I can sometimes tolerate this. And then on the other end of the spectrum, this rarely bothers me. Now, what's interesting, with different people in different seasons, this will change. So, like, spectrum of tolerance, like Jim, in your season of life, you may say, this is not that big of a deal. It rarely bothers me. And for me, I might say, oh, no, in this season of my life, the same thing that doesn't really bother you. It is a deal breaker for me. And so I think the spectrum of tolerance, considering where you're at, what kind of emotional energy do you have. What kind of physical energy do you have? What kind of margin and white space do I have?
- [26:11]
Jim Kress
I come home and I have three kids and I got to. Which I don't. My margin gets. I can't compare to you, which you do have kids. I have grandkids that age that I have the bandwidth for that. You that though I might say, hey, let's go do something, or here's something we want to do. And your bandwidth can be much smaller because of the season time. We all know that. Or if I had sickness going on, I have the bandwidth for this much relationship. I think while the community piece is important, how are we all doing in community? It is very individualized. For one, you're in charge of your self. Care to say thank you? And we've said it a million times, thank you. And I don't have it to give or thank you. And that doesn't work for me. And I don't need to say more.
- [26:50]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Yeah, that's good.
- [26:50]
Lisa TerKeurst
And your tolerance can be like your exhaustion level. Your tolerance can be affected because of past or present trauma. You know, there's so much that can shift. So that's why I said spectrum of tolerance. Really consider the season of life you're in and how much of this can you tolerate right now?
- [27:09]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
And I think sometimes one of the things that's challenging as Christians is you might have people that mean certain well in your life. Or maybe you have said this stuff to yourself, like, well, what about Jesus? Well, Jesus did. Or well, doesn't the Bible say. And you've got these verses that seem to be like showing this, this unending love and ability and capacity. It's like, well, Jesus for like. And I just want to always point out we have to be very careful that we don't conflate what is exclusively true of God and his infinite kindness, grace, mercy and compassion and make that the same expectation of human to human relationships. God doesn't call us to that. Right. And so this question of tolerance, it's actually directly connected with honesty and honest understanding of our human limitations. So that as we are dealing honestly with our limitations, we're actually creating space and room for God to work in spaces that only he can work. And so if I were to flip the thing upside down, it's actually kind of an act of idolatry to think that you can tolerate everything.
- [28:09]
Jim Kress
I love that.
- [28:10]
Dr. Joel Mutamali
Because you're trying to do the thing that only God can do. So in this space, it's like, man, accept your limits. Know what you can tolerate in the seasons that you can and then take a step back and leave it in the faithful hands of God.
- [28:23]
Lisa TerKeurst
So good. Spectrum of severity, spectrum of occurrence, spectrum of risk, spectrum of proximity, spectrum of tolerance. Those are all good considerations as you think about how is this impacting me?
- [28:38]
Shea Hill
Thanks for tuning in today. Don't forget to download your free resource titled is this normal 15 red flags you may be missing in your relationships. We've linked it for you in the show notes below. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you know the truth and live the truth because it changes everything. That's it for today's episode. But before you go, I want to tell you about a powerful way you can help Proverbs 31 ministries bridge the gap for even more listeners who need access to trusted therapy and biblically sound theology. Since launching this podcast, we've impacted hundreds of thousands of listeners. Here's what one of them said in a recent review. I'm so thankful for this podcast. It has helped me work through so many issues in my life and enabled me to step outside of my whirlwind of emotions and plant my feet on the truth, the Word of God. I hope this podcast continues. You really are changing lives. The Therapy and Theology Podcast is one of the many free resources we offer because listeners like you make it possible. So today I want to invite you to be a part of our listeners stories. To be a part of the life change that happens every single day because of those who say yes when they're asked to give. Because when you give, you help another soul know and live the truth that truly changes everything. You can give a donation today at proverbs31.org backslash donate.