“I’M A FORMER PICK UP ARTIST”

Summary

Therapy Gecko — “I’M A FORMER PICK UP ARTIST” (April 26, 2026) Host: Lyle (The Gecko) Episode Summary & Key Insights

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Therapy Gecko, host Lyle (dressed as a therapy gecko) takes calls from two guests: Sam, a young adult navigating questions around gender identity after moving from a conservative Midwest town to a progressive West Coast city, and Drew, a former pick-up artist and coach who delivers a wild, winding saga about the world of pick-up artistry, life coaching scams, and an ongoing hacker/paranoia nightmare involving Israeli spyware. The episode oscillates between open-hearted philosophical pondering, absurd humor, and sincerely unnerving tales of digital intrusion.

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Key Discussion Points & Memorable Moments

1. Sam’s Journey: Gender, Identity & Self-Permission (00:51–17:42)

• The struggle to define oneself (“I low key wish I was a girl.”)

• Sam (an alias chosen on the call) expresses feeling disconnected from binary gender norms, especially after moving to a progressive city from a small Midwest town. (1:42)
• Emphasizes ideal world: “In my opinion, the ideal world is one where gender doesn't exist… it causes so much more harm than good.” – Sam (05:19)
• The challenge isn’t just the outside world, but confusion within: “I feel… there’s a lot of people around me now who… really did know what they want, and they got that, and I don’t know what I want.” (04:14)

• Dealing with Perceptions and Individual Agency

• Lyle reframes vulnerability: “You really have very little control of other people's perception of you… the idea of who you are and other people’s perceptions of you doesn't have to be the way in which you live your life.” (08:23, 09:20)
• Sam says, “I'm pretty afraid of people thinking I'm evil… Like, whatever. I'm afraid that people don't see me, how I feel me, you know?” (11:22)
• The host empowers agency: “Other people can't decide my perception of myself. And that's great.” (10:03)

• Biological Programming vs. Human Autonomy

• Lyle: “Our animal brains subscribe to the idea that we need to care what other people think… but the human evolved part of your brain is like, oh, shit. I can perceive the universe above the rules of my biology.” (15:24)

• Gecko Wisdom Moments

• Sam jokes, “It’d be cool if we could all just be lizards and like lick our eyes.” (16:46)
• Lyle sums up: “Be a girl if you so desire.” (16:28)
• Sam, sounding reassured: “Therapy Gecko told me to. Told me to be a girl. It'd be cool.” (16:34)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps:

• “You can't decide other people's perception of you and just be like, I'm okay with that. And then also, other people can't decide my perception of myself. And that's great.” – Lyle (10:03)
• “I think nothing in life has any meaning except for the meaning that you give it.” – Drew (76:10), but thematically similar to the prior Sam segment.

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2. Drew: From Pickup Artist to Digital Paranoia (18:50–76:22)

• Origins of a Pickup Artist & Scene Realities (22:51–36:59)

• Drew uncovered the pickup artist scene after watching “The Pickup Artist” TV show as a desperate 16-year-old. (24:01)
• Became a major Vegas promoter and eventually ran one of the world’s largest pickup meetup groups: “I ran the largest meetup group… for pickup artistry.” (27:03)
• The lines between real seduction “tips,” gimmicks, and business are blurry. Drew notes that many famous teachers (like "Mystery") mostly milk their fame rather than offer new skills. (29:36)

• Sincerity, Skepticism & “The Game”

• Lyle gets meta: “All you really have to do, I think, is, like, be physically attractive and, like, confident… I don’t really believe in… mind manipulation tactics.” (30:47)
• Drew on logistics: “If you're pulling a girl from the club… if you're parked like 30 minutes away, she might just be like, nah, I think I'll just get an Uber.” (32:22)

• Who Attends Pickup Classes

• “80% are either in IT or autistic. Anytime, like, I had a large group, I would say, how many of you are in IT?” – Drew (35:20)
• Lyle responds, “It does make sense that a very logical thinking person would be like… let me take a course.” (35:51)

• Social Skills: Nature or Nurture?

• Lyle: “I have always wondered to myself if, like, social skills are a thing that can be taught or… either you have it or you don’t.” (36:59)
• Drew asserts: “Being social is just, like, a practice… if someone says something witty to you… at the first time, you might [freeze]. But second time around… you know what to say.” (37:38)

Notable Quotes:

• “Nice shirt, dude. Does it come in straight guy?” – Drew, offering his own line (38:48), to mutual laughter.

• Coaching, Scams & Digital Nightmares (39:53–76:22)

• As the pickup scene dissolved and social media purged pickup content, Drew shifted to (briefly) life coaching. (39:54)
• He became skeptical after realizing much of life coaching consists of unsubstantiated income claims and “coaches teaching coaches to coach coaches.” (50:16, 53:00)
• “I actually refunded everybody that paid me money. I refunded everybody because I realized… how much of a scam that… life coaching and marketing coaches and business coaches are.” (52:17)

• The Hacking Saga

• During his foray into life coaching, he called a lead who tried to sell him spyware (allegedly “Pegasus”), claiming: “All you need is their phone number and what type of phone they have… you can just go into their phone…” (46:42)
• Drew claims the man ultimately hacked him, deleting personal photos, sending texts from his number, causing relationships to unravel, and generally terrorizing his digital life for years. (61:15, 62:10)
• Lyle, oscillating between skepticism and concern: “Dude, I really… hope you're telling me the truth and you're not just… schizophrenia.” (68:40)
• Drew is now compiling evidence and considering contacting the FBI (71:15)

Quotes & Timestamps:

• “Nothing in life has any meaning except for the meaning that you give it.” – Drew (76:10)
• Lyle, darkly funny: “It’s kind of like saying… would I rather have a stranger put their hand up my ass or, like, a TSA agent?” (73:53)

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Notable Quotes Recap

• On perception & agency
  “Other people can't decide my perception of myself. And that's great.” — Lyle (10:03)

• On social anxiety
  “I think I kind of do [think I'm evil]… I don't feel empathy that often… I'm trying to… My values are like, you know, whatever, be nice and shit, but it's like I don't feel it in my heart that much...” — Sam (12:07)

• Pickup lines
  “Nice shirt, dude. Does it come in straight guy?” — Drew (38:48)

• On coaching scams
  “I was like, oh, when I realized that, nah, I'm not about that. So I refunded everybody. And then I made a documentary…” — Drew (53:34)

• On meaning
  “Nothing in life has any meaning except for the meaning that you give it.” — Drew (76:10)

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Key Timestamps

• [01:42] — Sam introduces gender questioning; moving from Midwest to West Coast city.
• [03:01] — Host and Sam discuss gender roles and new life possibilities.
• [10:03] — Lyle reframes perceptions and agency.
• [12:07] — Sam unpacks “feeling evil” and lacking empathy.
• [16:28] — Lyle: “But then, you know, be a girl if you so desire.”
• [22:51] — Drew introduces his pickup artist beginnings.
• [27:03] — Drew claims he ran the world’s largest pickup meetup group.
• [38:48] — Drew shares his infamous “straight guy shirt” line.
• [52:17] — Drew on refunding all his coaching clients.
• [62:10] — Drew describes his phone and nudes being hacked/deleted.
• [71:15] — Drew says he’s considering contacting the FBI.
• [73:53] — Lyle’s “TSA agent” analogy for digital privacy invasions.
• [76:10] — Drew’s nihilistic final advice: “Nothing in life has any meaning except for the meaning that you give it.”

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Tone & Style

The conversation remains light, open, and humorous despite the heavy topics. Lyle encourages philosophical exploration and self-permission, listens to outlandish stories with curiosity and skepticism, and keeps the mood from getting too dark with absurdist asides and gentle mockery.

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Final Takeaways

• The episode explores the difficulties of self-discovery and identity, especially amid societal expectations.
• It reveals the inner workings and darker sides of “pickup artist” and “life coaching” industries.
• Drew’s hacking saga adds a surreal but genuinely disturbing angle about privacy, scams, and digital paranoia.
• Throughout, Lyle highlights the futility of chasing others’ approval, the freedom in self-definition, and the inherent absurdity of existence.

This episode is both an earnest exploration of personal identity and meaning—and a cautionary parable about how not everything for sale (coaching, “game,” spyware) is what it seems.

Transcript

[Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Host]

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[Drew]

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[Host]

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[Drew]

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[Host]

Yo, what's up? How's it going?

[Sam]

Yo, what's up? It's going good.

[Host]

What's your name?

[Sam]

Oh, fuck, I didn't think of that.

[Host]

That's okay. I'm gonna call you Sam.

[Sam]

I like Sam. Sam is. Sam is great.

[Host]

Sam. What's up, Sam? How's life?

[Drew]

Okay.

[Sam]

What's up, Blau? Life is good. I texted you that I was eating quinoa salad and that it's delicious. Mm. I was gonna crack open a kombucha and that's about. That's about what I've. What I've got going on. How's the. How's the night? Are you still, like. Were you in Japan? Are you still in Japan?

[Host]

Sam? What? What's up, Sam? What. What. What you want to talk about today?

[Sam]

Well, I. I mean, I mean, there are multitude of things I wanted to talk about. I. I low key, wish I was a girl. There's that. Yeah, maybe that's what I want to talk about. I'll take that. So I'm. I mean, I mean, I. I don't. You know, it's. The way my voice sounds is like I'm a boy, you know? And like, I don't know, I've always, always felt like kind of, kind of different. Kind of like I was never into sports and shit like that. And lately it's like I just moved to a. I moved to a very, like, progressive town. I'm very young. And now that I'm around a bunch of people who are like, oh, you can be. You can be different than what. What you. What the world told you you were when you were born. And I'm kind of like, kind of up about that because, like, I. I don't really know what to think. It sounds like a lot of effort, but Yeah, I don't know.

[Host]

No, definitely. Way more effort than being a guy. A lot more products you're gonna have. You're gonna need a lot more shelf space on your shower, for sure. You're gonna need to start using. Yeah, I don't know if you're. I don't know if you've been using three in one shampoo, conditioner, body wash, but you're gonna have to.

[Sam]

Oh, no, see, three separate things. I got curly hair, so. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay.

[Host]

All right. So you're already doing okay on the products front.

[Sam]

I'm doing all right on the products.

[Drew]

That's true.

[Host]

So, okay. So where did you grow up?

[Sam]

I grew up in a. A small Midwest college town.

[Host]

So tell me this. So, okay, the thing of, like. Yeah, you grow up in, like, a small town, and you have this idea of the universe, and then you leave, and then you meet these other people, you have this other experience, and you're like, whoa, what the fucking? Fucking. The universe expands infinitely beyond whatever what I thought it was in my small town. You're like. And you. You said that your reaction to this was that it you up, not that it, like, excited you. Why did. Why. Why do you think this you up as opposed to exciting you?

[Sam]

Oh, that's. That's a good question. I mean, let me think. I mean, I guess right now I feel up about it because it's like, there's a lot of things I want that are new there, like, are really easy to get and hard to get in the same way. Like, I don't know. It's like now, you know, if I wanted to fucking become a girl, I could. And I don't know. It's. It fucks me up because it's like, I feel. It feels like there's a lot of people around me now who, like, really did know what they want, and they got that, and it's like, I don't know what I want. Interesting, you know?

[Host]

Yeah. No, I feel. No, no. When you're around a lot of, like, decisive people.

[Sam]

Yeah, you.

[Host]

It can if. No, it totally fucks you up. You're like, oh, fuck. Am I supposed to know exactly what I want to do? What are you indecisive about? Like, whether or not you want to be a girl?

[Sam]

I guess so. I mean, ideally, in my opinion, the ideal world is one where gender doesn't exist. Like, I think it's totally unnecessary. I think it causes so much more harm than. Than good. And, like, you know, like. But. But I don't know. It's it's like a thing that. For. It's, you know, literally binary. Literally forces you to decide.

[Host]

I mean, you can do. I mean, listen, this thing where.

[Drew]

Where you're.

[Host]

You've decided, like, oh, I can exist outside of the realm of. Of. Of. Of what the universe and what society has set as being the thing. I'm very pro that. I'm very pro. Yeah, I mean. I mean, I'm very pro that you. The problem is that you, like, yes. Like, in choosing that path, you do inevitably have to deal with, like, the inevitable cons of doing that.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, so I feel you on that There are kind of inevitable cons of going against the grain, but they also provide you with pros. But the good. I mean, the good thing for you is that you can. I mean, you can just. You can do whatever you want, like, if you want to. Especially, like. Okay, so you're in this.

[Drew]

Where.

[Host]

Where did you move to from the small town?

[Sam]

We'll say a gay west coast city. There's a couple. And I stay there all day. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

So if you're in this gay west coast city, like, how old are you?

[Sam]

I'm fucking 18. I'm in high school, bro.

[Host]

Oh, you're 18?

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

Oh, I know. You just move there for college.

[Sam]

Yeah, I am. I'm probably gonna go to college here and, like.

[Host]

Yeah, okay.

[Sam]

Yeah. I just need to kind of get out of the Midwest.

[Host]

What? I mean, shit. Fucking perfect time to just. If. If, like. But. Yeah, right, because, like, in your gut, if you're. If this is something you want to try and if it's because, like, if in. If in your gut, this is something that you wanted to try and, like, you kind of felt it the whole time, like, go. I mean, give it a. Give it a try, right? You're in a new place. You're in a new environment.

[Drew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

I mean, dog, like, give it a try. See how you feel.

[Sam]

Yeah, I feel. Yeah. I guess it's like dealing with the, like, no matter where I'm at, even if it's like, whatever, I just moved. It's like, there's people. Oh, no, man. It's like I have to deal with, like, being vulnerable with people. I don't want to. Like, it's like asking so much of people to, like, be like, yo, totally change your perception of me, you know?

[Host]

Well, so. It's. It's hard. It's hard, right? Because you can't really, like. And forget about, like, the whatever. The. The. The stupid. The politics around, like, Being transgender or whatever. Just the general idea of, like. Like, forget about. Forget about, like, just the general idea of, like, you really have very little control of other people's perception of you. You know what I mean?

[Sam]

Like, true.

[Drew]

That's.

[Sam]

That ain't.

[Host]

Why. Why is that upsetting? It just is, like, a fact of reality that you have no control of other people's perceptions of you. Right. It's a fact of reality.

[Sam]

But if.

[Host]

But if. And if. I think if you're gonna take that fact, you don't necessarily have to take that fact and look at it as inherently upsetting. But there's another fact that you've recently. But this other fact of reality has come into your life, which is exciting, which is that, like, the. The idea of who you are and other people's perceptions of you doesn't have to be the way in which you, like, live your life. You know what I mean?

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Host]

So, yeah, and that's. And that's a. That's a. It's a bit of a terrifying. Why? Well, why am I saying it's terrifying? It's just a fact of reality. It can be another. It can be an exciting thing. Right. So if you want to look at these two facts, right, you can't decide other people's perception of you and just be like, I'm okay with that. And then also, other people can't decide my perception of myself. And that's great.

[Drew]

That's true.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Host]

So do with those two things what you will. Right. And what within those two things can you do to make yourself feel just, like, proud and happy of the life that you're living?

[Sam]

Yeah, that's true. I guess. I guess going forth would help the Deciding something. Just doing anything about it could help. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. I. Well, so what. What about. What do you. What are you most. What are you most afraid of?

[Sam]

What am I most afraid of? I mean, I'm pretty afraid of people thinking I'm evil. People thinking you're evil? Taking turns. Hate people seeing me. I mean, I guess it's kind of self to be like, I'm afraid of however people see me. But it's like. Like, whatever. I'm afraid that. That people don't see me, how. How I feel me, you know?

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

Why are you afraid of people seeing that you're evil? Do you. Let me. Well, do you. Do you think you're evil?

[Sam]

I think I kind of do.

[Drew]

Like, interesting.

[Sam]

Like, I kind of think I'm kind of evil, like, because a lot of time I just. I'm Just like, I should do whatever the hell I want, which is kind of evil. But. And it's like I. I don't know because. Because it like. Okay, this is another thing. Holy side tangent. But I low key don't feel empathy that often, which is kind of. But it's like. It's like. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It's like I'm trying to. My. My. My values are like, you know, whatever, be nice and shit, but it's like I don't feel it in my heart that much, which is kind of crazy. But I don't know.

[Host]

Yeah, interesting. I mean, if you want to subscribe to this, like, okay, just to keep this, like, theory, this thread going. Right. If you want to subscribe to the idea that the. The universe is fairly chaotic and subjective.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Host]

And you can be whatever you want and do whatever you want and like, whatever. Like, you kind of get to decide what's evil. Right.

[Sam]

Okay. Mm.

[Host]

So you. You get to decide. Like, you get. You can. You can if and if you want to. And I just me. What I think is the most beneficial is to, like, look at yourself and go, like, okay, how do I best, like, operate within my own, like, framework of. Of whatever, you know? I don't know if that means anything.

[Sam]

No, but. No. Yeah. Yeah. What works?

[Host]

Yeah, So I don't. I don't know. Just try your. Just try your best, I guess.

[Sam]

Okay. Okay.

[Host]

Yeah, kind of. Yeah. I don't know. Does it make sense? Am I being crazy?

[Sam]

I. I think that makes sense. I think that makes sense.

[Host]

All right.

[Sam]

It's kind of like, who gives a. But. Yeah. Okay.

[Host]

Was this helpful?

[Sam]

I think. I think this is helpful.

[Host]

Okay.

[Sam]

I think it's nice to just talk about it because it's like. Because it's like, what the. I don't talk. This is like, not this for real. Like, there's like two. There's like two people. I've. I've talked about. About that. I don't know. I think it's helpful.

[Host]

Yeah, it's easier said. It's. It's easier said than done to not care about other people's perception of you 100%. Because that's. I mean, our, like, we're like biologically wired to do that.

[Sam]

Yeah, No, I think about that all the time. It's like, it's like. It's like if you do something wrong, it's like people would kill you and it's like. Yeah, that's how we. That's how we would stay Alive. That's. That shit's fascinating.

[Host]

Yes, it is true. Our animal.

[Drew]

It's okay.

[Host]

Yeah. Our animal brains subscribe to the idea that we need to care what other people think about because us, because that's how we used to live. And like, if you got out, ousted from the tribe, you couldn't survive. But we live in a half animal, half human world. And the human evolved part of your brain is like, oh, shit. I can perceive the. The universe above. I've evolved as a organism to be able to perceive the universe beyond the rules of my biology. And I can cheat them and work with. It's kind of crazy if you think about it.

[Sam]

It's crazy. It makes it sound pretty cool.

[Host]

Yeah. So yes, it's true. So you can use your higher human intellect to go above your biological need to have everyone's approval and then enter, you know, become an evolved being who just kind of lives in their own orbits.

[Sam]

Yeah,

[Drew]

yeah.

[Host]

But then, you know, be a girl if you so desire.

[Sam]

All right. Therapy. Gecko told me to. Told me to be a girl. It'd be cool. Yeah,

[Host]

just do it. You do what you want, dog. What? What were you gonna say?

[Sam]

All right, I'll think it'd be cool if we could all just be lizards and like lick our eyes and.

[Host]

No, no, no, I mean that well. Well, this is like. This is like my whole thing. I made a whole video about this. But no, be in a human is good. It's. There's gifts there, there's this gift. There's. As with everything, it's a double edged sword. But I'll take the gifts over the. Over the cons, Sam.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Is there anything else you want to say to the people of the computer before we go.

[Sam]

Go to a hardcore punk show? Go see go or just go see live music. There's a lot of really hot people and. Bad music to be seen.

[Host]

Love bad music.

[Sam]

I do too.

[Host]

Thank you, Sam.

[Sam]

All right. Thank you. Mile.

[Liberty Mutual Ad Voice]

Liberty Mutual customizes your car and home insurance. And now we're customizing this rush hour ad to keep you calm, which could help your driving. And science says therapy is great for a healthy mindset. So enjoy this 14 second session on us. I think you've done everything right and absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, anything that hasn't gone your way could probably be blamed on your father not being emotionally available because his father wasn't emotionally available and so on. And now that you're calm and healing, you're probably driving better too.

[Sam]

Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.

[Host]

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[Drew]

Hello.

[Host]

Hi. Hello. What's up? What's your name?

[Drew]

My name is Drew.

[Host]

Drew. Drew Carey.

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

Drew, you texted me and you said, I've been calling around for lawyers about me being hacked because weird things have been happening and people have been recording my phone conversations.

[Drew]

Yeah, I know, right?

[Host]

I don't know. I have no idea. I, I'm perplexed. I'm perplexed by this. Are you? First of all, I'm not a lawyer. I'm a, I don't know what I am.

[Drew]

Right. It's still something I like to talk about, though.

[Host]

Okay, great. Okay, cool. I'm perplexed. I, I, I don't, I'm confused. I'm scared. Please.

[Drew]

As am I. So about, I don't know if you could see the text messages from like a couple of months ago, but yeah, about almost three years ago now, I've been like, I was starting up my business being like, consulting firm, like, life coaching, and called up, I was cold calling, called up this one guy and, well, we started arguing because he tried to sell to me when I was trying to, I guess, sell to him.

[Host]

Okay, stop right there. Hold on. So you're a life, you're a life coach?

[Drew]

No, not anymore. This is like three years ago, dude.

[Host]

Okay, okay, okay. Okay. So at the time, at the time, you're a life coach.

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

And you start cold calling people. How, okay, where do you find the people to cold call to? Like, how do you find people? People who, whose lives are going terribly so they need a life coach. Like, where do you get these leads?

[Drew]

Well, some of them I got from the coach that I hired. And also interesting, like, friends. Like, like me calling around my friends and then giving. Like, there's a thing called three for free. So you help out three people or three to five people, 10 people or whatever, and then you ask them for three referrals. Okay, then. Yeah. So what kind of go down that rabbit hole?

[Host]

What kind of life coaching were you doing

[Drew]

that was helping specifically? My niche was just. At the time, it was pretty much anyone. I didn't have a niche, but I Was helping musicians, like, that were. That were, like, stuck. Yeah. That were like, oh, man, I don't. Yeah, they were like, they, like musicians. They are really creative people, but, like, they don't know the business side of it. And I'm very familiar with business and selling because I was a NYCLA promoter and a strip club promoter in Las Vegas for, like 10 years. So, like, I knew how to, like, sell music. I worked with all of the. I worked for every single nightclub and strip club in Las Vegas for over the course of, like, nine or 10 years. So I thought I could bring something to the table and. Yeah. And then called up, you know, some people, and then I got into a heated argument.

[Host]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Drew]

We're.

[Host]

We're. We're. Trust me, we're going to get there. But I have more questions about your life. You have an interesting life, man. Like, we're going to get there.

[Drew]

Well, thank you.

[Host]

But I have. I have more questions for you before we get into what's up. Why your phone has been hacked. Okay, so you worked as a strip club promoter for 10 years. We're gonna go through your entire life. I need to fill an hour of podcast and I feel like we can do it with you. I'm gonna fill as much of the. Of the you like as soon as you set. You said a few things in the past two minutes where I was like, we've got at least 45 minutes of podcasts to do. Okay,

[Drew]

I'm honored.

[Host]

You. How did you get involved as a strip club promoter? When. What does that even look like?

[Drew]

When I was, I don't know, like 16 years old or 17 years old, I stumbled across the television show,

[Sam]

the

[Drew]

Pickup Artist, and I was a loser. You know, I was like, never had a girlfriend or anything. I mean, not many people have when they were like 16 or 17 years old, but I was pretty desperate and I was like, right. Stumbling across. I stumbled across the TV show and they're like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you can learn how to pick up girls hormonal as a 17 year old OR. Yeah, I was 16 when that show came out. I was like, oh, my gosh, you can. And then I bought the books and then I went to a teen club when I was 16 when you went to it.

[Host]

Wait, you went to a teenage pickup artist club?

[Drew]

No, I mean, it wasn't a pickup artist club. It's just a nightclub for 16 year olds.

[Host]

Oh, teen club. Oh, you went to a Teen cup.

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, dude. You know, it's funny. I. No, no, I went to. I. Dude, no, I went to shit like that when I was a kid. It's so, like, as an adult, so weird.

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

Looking back on it, like, in. In Ocean City, Maryland, there was this place called H2O. Have you heard of that place?

[Drew]

Yeah, no. I went to a place called Inferno in Pontiac when I was 16.

[Host]

Okay.

[Drew]

I don't think it's around anymore.

[Host]

Okay, so you're. Okay, so I was.

[Drew]

Nervous wreck.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. Okay, so you're 16. You go to one of those, like, weird teenage nightclubs. You just read a bunch of pickup artistry book.

[Drew]

Yeah, please, God.

[Host]

So fascinated.

[Drew]

Game.

[Host]

Yeah, sure. Okay, we'll keep going.

[Drew]

And the mystery method. And when I turned 21, my friend was like, I want to move to Las Vegas. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Yes. That sounds like a great idea, because I wanted. At that time, I wanted to be a pickup coach.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Drew]

Yeah. And so at 21, I moved to Las Vegas because I thought I could be a, you know, pickup coach, hone my own craft, pick up girls.

[Host]

Were you doing. Were you doing, like. Like, when you were 18 or 17 or whatever, were you coaching other high school kids at the teen clubs on how to pick up girls?

[Drew]

No, no, I was. I was a nervous wreck. I only went that one time because I was, like, so much of a nervous wreck that I didn't go to another club until I was, like, 18.

[Sam]

Whoa.

[Host]

Interesting. Okay, so you get into. You get into all this stuff, and then at 21, you're like, I'm gonna go with my homie to Vegas and become a pickup artist coach.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay. And how did that. How did that work out?

[Drew]

Well, I ran the largest meetup group.

[Host]

Whoa.

[Drew]

In the world.

[Host]

For picking for pickup artistry.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Drew]

Like, you ran all over the world.

[Host]

You ran the largest. Because I feel like. I mean, that's a. That's a bold claim because I feel like those guys are, like, like, the most famous. What? Like the. Like, the.

[Drew]

I work with, I feel like.

[Host]

Really? Yeah. Like, those guys, like, I don't. I don't know any of their names, but I know that they exist. And, like, people done videos of them and stuff. Like. So you ran the biggest. What are you, like, a public figure of some kind?

[Drew]

I'm not. I was, like, working with the biggest people, though. Like, it's kind of a. It's kind of a thing to try and stay because everything is, like, underground. And the famous ones That I worked with all of them. Like, they gave free talks at my meetups.

[Sam]

All of them.

[Drew]

So people from Real Social Dynamics. I worked with Real Social Dynamics after about, like, five years of running my groups.

[Host]

What is Real Social Dynamics?

[Drew]

I don't think it's around anymore. But that was, like, the biggest pickup artist company. And I worked with. I met a guy named rsd Luke. Luke Krog. And anyone that's, I guess, listening would know Owen Cook, AKA Tyler Durden, from the book the Game.

[Host]

Tyler. I thought Tyler Durden was the fight club guy.

[Drew]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's the. That was his, like, stage name.

[Host]

Owen Cook.

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay. I have more. I have so many more questions. I'm so glad that we. Yeah, this is. I have so much more to talk to you about. Okay, so.

[Drew]

And then there's, like, Julian Blanc, who was famous for. He really blew up on social media. I forgot what year it was.

[Host]

But is he the guy that wears, like. I know there's one of these guys that wears, like, a funny hat.

[Drew]

Yeah, that was Mystery.

[Sam]

His name.

[Drew]

That's the stage name. His real name is Eric Von Markovic. And so, like, yeah, he was asking me for VIP tables.

[Host]

Okay, so a guy like that, right? Like, does he actually get a lot of girls? Like, he's just, like, a guy in a hat Mystery.

[Drew]

Oh, no, no. Like, maybe back in the day, like, when he wrote the book and he had the TV show. Yeah, probably. But I mean, like, the more I dove into it, the more I realized that, like, a lot of them, a lot of, like, not just mystery, but, like, most of the dating coaches and stuff, they're just, like, kind of just milking the.

[Host]

Right.

[Drew]

You know, the fame.

[Host]

Right.

[Drew]

Which, I mean, like, fame. Fame can get you laid, but they were just like, leaning heavy on that, and they're just like, you know, they got, like, wife and kids and stuff. You know, they're just like, yeah, I'll just show you how. Which is. I guess, like, that's the end goal. But they kind of, like, lost that. That edge, you know, that they lost the hunger.

[Host]

Is it the. Isn't the goal? Isn't the goal? Is the. Okay, now I actually. Okay. I actually want to talk to you about, like, again, pick up artistry in general.

[Sam]

Right?

[Host]

I. Is it, like. I don't know. I feel like, oh, is there. Is there really any. Is there really anything to. Like, all you really have to do, I think, is, like, be physically attractive and, like, confident. Like, what is with all the. What is like, what Is the, like, like, like I don't really believe in like, this whole thing of like, there's some magic, like, game that you learn or. Well, yeah, sure, but I think, but like, I, I don't like the idea that like there's a magical spell that you can say or like mind manipulation tactics or whatever.

[Drew]

Seems like, yeah, you're correct.

[Host]

I mean, they're wild to me.

[Drew]

There's, there's charisma, right? And then there's. You got to think of logistics. Like, if you want to pick up a girl tonight, well, you got to like, plan ahead, right? I mean, you could do like last moment thing, but the logistics really,

[Sam]

you're

[Host]

like, you're coaching guys. I'm like, you have to clean your room before you bring a curl.

[Drew]

Yeah, yeah, like clean the pubes around your toilet bowl, you know, because.

[Host]

Are you really, are you serious? Is that really what, like, brush your teeth, like, find like a good parking spot? Is that the kind of. You're like, talking to people?

[Drew]

Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, if you, if you're pulling a girl from the club, right, and she's got heels on, she might be a quitter after like 10 minutes of walking in those heels off, you know, but if you're, if you're parked like 30 minutes away, I mean, she might just be like, nah, I think I'll just get an Uber. You know, like, you gotta think of things like that.

[Host]

That's, you know what? Actually, I actually, you know, what, for like, all. For the guff that pickup artistry gets, that's actually rather, rather considerate, I would say, of a, of a logistical element to consider. You know, if a girl's wearing heels, you don't want her to have to walk too far. That's actually, there's something kind of sweet about that, actually.

[Drew]

And if you're going around talking to a bunch of girls in the nightclub and. Or if you're going around and talking, you know, just having general conversations, there's like a couple of questions you can ask. See, hey, is this like a good candidate for a one night stand or am I going to have to get her number for like, another time? So if she's saying, you know, because I lived in Las Vegas, oh, her plane leaves in like a couple of hours, you know, maybe that she's not, you know, she doesn't want a quickie right now, you know, like, maybe go talk to someone else and save some time or, you know, grab her phone number, grab her Instagram. I'd always go for like Instagram or Snapchat, because then you can kind of keep them in the back burner if they look at your stories and. And they get like, fomo and then they can chew up when they come back.

[Host]

Does this pursuit. Do you have a. Do you have a girlfriend?

[Drew]

Yeah, now I do. Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. I mean, after a while. Does it. Don't you get a little tired?

[Drew]

Yeah, I kind of got sick of going to nightclubs. I left, I guess, pickup artist stuff, like back in, like, 20. 2017, 2018.

[Sam]

Sure.

[Host]

I mean, it makes sense that when you're younger, but as you get older, it's like. Yeah, you know, this is.

[Drew]

I'm 34 now. Yeah. I mean, like. Yeah. I mean, I don't mind talking about this kind of stuff about, like, pickup artistry and stuff, because it's like. Yeah. I mean, I got pretty.

[Sam]

Pretty good at it.

[Drew]

You know, it's like very. Once you get, like, you kind of get a system down, going to the nightclub so often or pulling from, say, like, Tinder or any dating app.

[Host]

Okay, so you're doing these meetups, like, what kind of guys are going to the meetups? What's the demographic?

[Drew]

I would say 80% are either in it or autistic.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Drew]

Yeah, interesting. Anytime, like, I had a large group, I would say, how many of you are in it? Because they're like, very logical thinking people. And those are the people that in it that usually are either in college or they just. They're pretty well established and they got money for, like.

[Host]

I mean, it, it. I mean, no, it does make sense that a very logical thinking person would be like, oh, I want to find. I want to have sex. Let me take a course on it and find this logistical formula to, like, do that.

[Drew]

Yeah, yeah. And they get a little too logical and you gotta kind of help them out of that. That's. That's.

[Host]

Have you. Have you. Have you encountered a lot of, like, autistic or, like, people who have, like, lower social skills? Have you. Have you seen a lot of guys like that transform into, like, you know, confident people?

[Drew]

Yeah, some of them you kind of have to, like, you know, you teach body language, so that way it can kind of help them read social cues. So, like, I would recommend the book, like, the definitive book of body language.

[Host]

You know what's interesting? I actually have always. You'd be an interesting person to talk to about this. I have always wondered to myself if, like, social skills are a thing that can be taught or if, like. Because sometimes I do believe that, like, social skills and, like, charisma and whatnot are kind of a thing of, like, you either have it or you don't, you know, like. Like. Like, I meet, like, I just meet people all the time and who just, like, have the sauce, you know? Like, they just are able to, like, get people to like them very easily. Like, that, like, everything they say makes sense, you know, they just, like.

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

Know how to do it.

[Drew]

I mean, I think social is, like, being social is just, like, a practice, you know, if someone says something witty to you, if someone, like, you know, you're at the bar talking to, like, a girl, and some chode walks up and starts, like, you know, what are those? As he points at your shoes, you know, just like, how do you combat that? At the first time? You know, you might be like. You're like, I don't know what to say. But second time around, when someone comes up and they're, like, you know, trying to take your girl away that you're. That you've just been talking to for, like, 20 minutes, so she's willing to walk away at any moment. You know, you can be like, hey, nice shirt, dude. Is it coming straight guy or whatever? You know, like, just, like, just gorgeous, you know, stand in front of them.

[Host]

Is that. Is that in one of the books? Nice shirt.

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

And straight guy. Is that in one of the books?

[Drew]

That's. That was one of my lines that I would, like. It gets people, like. Because you can't get out of that, you know? But I learned if you just, like, like, kind of. Yeah, that's awesome. If. If you're just, like, kind of, like, step in front of them just, like, a little bit and just continue talking. Most guys just kind of, like, turn around there and they just give up real quick.

[Host]

Nice shirt. Does it come in straight guy? I'm gonna use that.

[Drew]

Okay, go ahead, man. I hung out my jersey.

[Host]

So you were running these pickup artist circles, and then how did that come into, like, okay, so you've been, like, a coach for a while, and this kind of led to you being. Being, like, a life coach of some kind.

[Sam]

Yeah, the.

[Drew]

And that's quite a community. Kind of just, like, blew up.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Drew]

No one was doing it anymore. Because back in 20, I'd say 2019 or so, 2018, there was, like, a kind of, like, social media was doing, like, this purge where they were, like, deleting a bunch of social media accounts of, like, all of the famous pickup artists. They're, like, deleting their, like, YouTube channels and Facebook accounts and stuff, like, that mostly because I believe. Because Julian Blanc, he was like, he. There was a picture of him that went viral of him choking a girl.

[Host]

Huh.

[Drew]

And. And then he got, like. I guess I think he got banned from, like, 30 different countries for that because he was in Australia. Makes sense when he did that.

[Host]

Yeah, sense.

[Drew]

But I mean, in his defense, like, okay, let's get.

[Host]

Let's, let's. Let's. Let's get back to your life. Let's get back to your life.

[Drew]

Right. But I mean, like, I just believe his story and, you know, because I, like, it's not like he was going around strangling women. It was just. He just did something that was, like, stupid. You know, he just kind of like, all right, let's.

[Host]

Let's.

[Drew]

Let's apologize and stuff. Okay.

[Host]

So anyway, you.

[Drew]

Okay.

[Host]

Okay. Who'd you call?

[Drew]

The. The pickup artist community kind of like, fell apart, and then covet happened. I moved back to Michigan, where I'm originally from.

[Sam]

Huh.

[Drew]

And then I was like, I don't want to be a pickup coach anymore. Because it's actually ironically kind of hard to be dating when you're a pickup coach. Because every girl that you date is going to be like, they're always going to be, like, questioning, like, you know.

[Host]

Oh, with him.

[Drew]

Yeah. Wait, what?

[Host]

Like, they're going to be questioned, like, if you're, like, manipulating them in some way.

[Drew]

Yeah, like, well, not manipulating them. Like, well, every. Like, if you get in an argument, every girl is going to be like, well, why don't you go pick up some other girl, then you don't need me type of stuff. Or they'd be. Or they're just, like, insecure, thinking that, like, I've never cheated on anyone.

[Host]

Sure.

[Drew]

But that would always be a thing if I'm out with a student that, like, oh, you're out teaching other guys how to pick up women, so you have to go pick up women. So it's just like, no, that's not how it works. I'm just. It is there with them.

[Host]

It is an unquestionably tough sell to anyone who does not, like, you know, there's a certain kind of. A certain kind of kind of person has to be, you know, on board. And it's definitely not going to be every kind of person.

[Drew]

So I. I was mostly looming on the whole, like, nightclub and strip club promoting. Like, just selling. Going to the club was a better profession than being a pickup coach.

[Host]

Okay, so you switched from doing this pickup coaching to coaching musicians who were having trouble with, like, their Confidence side of things. The business side of things.

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay.

[Drew]

Yeah.

[Host]

And then how did your. I'm ready to talk about how your phone got hacked. I'm very curious.

[Drew]

Yeah, I'm very eager to talk about it. I've been trying to get a hold of you for months now, like, on and off.

[Host]

Your phone's been hacked. It's been hard.

[Drew]

Yeah, well, yeah, right. You're telling me. So I got, yeah, so I was just, you know, doing my, you know, three for free, you know, business plan, calling around, and I had like, a list of people. And talked to this one individual. I don't know what kind of accent he had, but, like, I still remember his voice because I hear it almost every day. It's so tr. It's, it's so traumatic to me that since I had this conversation with this guy, it echoes in my head, like, every day. And it's just like we start talking and he, he's like, well, if I'm going to hire you, I need to know who. I need to know, you know, about you. So I started telling him about me, about how as a nightclub promoter, I was promoting strip clubs. I worked at, you know, Hakan Omnia, XS1, Oak bank had Hustlers Club, you know, all those places. I'm like. But I, I, I'm not one to really brag. It's just, just look on my social media and then you'll just see for yourself. Right? I, that's just, I'm about that life, okay? And, and then we got into, we ended up getting into an argument about religion and because I'm an atheist, and apparently that struck a chord with him because he was, I think he was a Judeo Christian or, or some sort of Christian, right? And he, Like, she was. I, I don't like to argue about religion. I just like to pretty much stand my ground. Like, I'm, People look down at atheists all the time, okay, like, heretics.

[Host]

How, how, how did your phone get hacked?

[Drew]

Right? So, like, we start arguing about, like, religion. And then, you know, at the end of the conversation, he said, I, by the way, I've been recording all. Like, he tried to sell me on this program to, because I was trying to sell to him, he was trying to sell to me. The program is to go into other people's phones. All you need is their phone number and what type of phone that they have. So if they have an Android, an Android or an Apple, it doesn't matter as long as they have their phone number and what type of Phone that they have. You can just go into their phone and just go into all their accounts, look at whatever and I'm. You don't want that. I'm like, no, yeah, it's possible. And I was like, I don't want that. I respect people's privacy.

[Host]

Wait, hold on, hold on. I'm so. Okay, first of all, first of all, there's no way that that's a real thing.

[Drew]

Yeah, it's pretty well known at this point. There's. It's called Pegasus. I don't know if that's the exact program he was trying to sell to me, but there's. There's one out there that's called Pegasus.

[Host]

Pegasus. And it's very popular. Go into anyone's phone just using their phone number.

[Drew]

Are not.

[Host]

Here we go. Oh, holy shit. Pegasus is spyware developed by the Israeli Cyber Arms Co. NSO Group. What the fuck? Oh, this is real?

[Drew]

Yeah. So I didn't want that stuff because I was like, it's only a matter of time if I would. Not only do I respect people's privacy, but I. It would only be a matter of time before I get caught with it. You know, even if I did accept that and I. Not that I even had the money at the time to like buy that from him.

[Host]

This is crazy. Oh, so, okay, so this guy tried. Wait, so this guy tried to sell you this Pegasus crazy phone thing?

[Drew]

Why would I even believe that the person even has it?

[Host]

And then he pegasist you?

[Drew]

Yeah, he said he was going to keep me in the, in his circle because he said when he's bored, he likes to just watch other people. And he told me that he likes to watch, you know, politicians poop on the toilet when they accidentally pull up their camera app.

[Host]

Yeah. What the.

[Drew]

And he said that he could just listen in to the insider trading that they do. And he said I could make so much more money. And I'm like, I don't. No, dude, I'm. I'm good. I sounds like a superpower that I don't want.

[Host]

Dude, how did you.

[Drew]

I don't.

[Host]

How did you. How did you find this guy?

[Drew]

So I was talking to cuz like I was. I hired like my own coach for myself through Tony Robbins company And like they just. Tony Robbins's coach, like, like they have their own coaching program that I went

[Sam]

through

[Drew]

and she gave me like a list of names to call.

[Host]

So this kind of sounds like a pyramid scheme, but also before that, life coaching itself.

[Drew]

Yeah, I, I don't. Yeah, I believe that Life coaching itself can sometimes be a pyramid scam.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Drew]

So I got out of that.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Host]

What exactly were. What were you trying to get a coach for?

[Drew]

Just, like, for. Because I was used to marketing nightclubs and strip clubs. I wanted to.

[Host]

Oh, you needed. You needed a coach?

[Drew]

Myself.

[Host]

You needed a. Oh, okay. So you. No, no. It's funny. I have actually. I had. No. Dude, I have seen so many, like, Facebook ads for this. They are hilarious. That's like.

[Drew]

Oh, I can get into that, too. The whole, like, I'll show you how to make 20,000amonth type of people that get rich cameras.

[Host]

No, like the Facebook ads that are like, hire a coach to. To learn how to get people to hire a coach.

[Drew]

Yeah.

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[Sam]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

[Host]

Liberty.

[Drew]

So I'm actually in the middle of editing a documentary called Coaches or Quacks that targets that exact thing.

[Host]

I mean, here's the thing.

[Drew]

Honestly, that is what it's about.

[Host]

Yeah, you kinda.

[Drew]

I mean, I am not a coach anymore. Like, I actually refunded everybody that paid me money. I refunded everybody because I realized of how much of a scam that. That life coaching and marketing coaches and business coaches are. I refunded everybody and I started doing a documentary on it.

[Host]

Whoa, you refused everybody? Wait, okay, hold on. Yeah, you. So you refunded everybody? I mean, you've. You refunded everybody that you.

[Drew]

Then I started doing it for free. Yeah.

[Host]

Okay, so you refunded everybody that you were like a dating coach for or like any kind of coach.

[Drew]

No, because, like, dating coaching is like, you know, it's not like what you said, like a pyramid scam. Like, for. It's not like you pay a coach. Make it coaching coaches to coach coaches to coach coaches. Right.

[Host]

Okay, so, but say you. You at one point I would go, coaches.

[Drew]

Yes. That's what marketing coaches and business coaches is. And I. I was like, oh. When I realized that, nah, I'm not about that. So I refunded everybody. And then I made a documentary where I started filming a documentary and I got really deep into like, you know, how unqualified that of what life coaches are. And I got life coaches at, you know, people that work at Tony Robbins Co. Trying to, trying to sell to me using unsubstantiated income claims, which is itself illegal by the ftc. And Tony Robbins can get sued once this documentary drops. And not, not just him, but other people too, because there's life coaches out there that they'll just tell you anything, like, oh, I spent over a million dollars on my own coaching and now I'm going to show you how to do it and you'll be rich just like me. And then it's like, it's the never ending cycle. I'll give you an example. I was talking to this one guy who didn't realize that he was a victim and he spent $12,000 on coaching. And I broke the news to him that the person that he bought from was scamming him. And he's like, he was crying and he broke down and he said, I'm gonna look into this. And he was in denial. Right? And I said, wait, but here's, Can

[Host]

I, can I, can I ask you, can I ask something?

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Host]

You're saying, you're saying that the guy that he spent $12,000 on is scamming him. But yeah, but the question is. Right, but like, what's a scam? Right? Because if you, because here's the if, right? Because if a coach, if a guy, if you go on, if you're on Facebook, this is what I was going to say originally. If you're on Facebook, right, And you see an ad and someone says, I'm going to coach you how to get people, I'm going to coach you how to coach people to get them to coach people. And so, and so, and then you pay some, and then you pay someone $2,000 or whatever it is to teach you how to do it, and then they do it. But that's, but yes, it's pyramid scheme. But like, were you really scammed or did you just, But I mean, what's the scam here? Right? Like, like, that's the, like you bought you. It's like if somebody, if somebody says to you, hey, I'll sell you this, this piece of dirt for $3,000 and then you buy it. Were you, were you scammed or did you just like spend money stupidly?

[Drew]

Right, Great question. It's, it comes down to straight up, just like they say, you know, I'm going to show you how to make $40,000. That itself, according to the FTC, is an unsubstantiated income claim. You cannot.

[Host]

Sure, that makes sense. That makes sense.

[Drew]

Yeah. You, you cannot say this product will help you lose ten pounds. You cannot say this product will, you know, it's unsubstantiated. It can't be proven. You can't guarantee results. Even if they say I guarantee it or you get your money back. That's just trying for themselves to get a cop out. But that won't work with the FTC and it won't work legally. And most of those people, they go broke and they can't pay you back. So specifically, the scams that I was looking into was you go on an interview with people like for them to, to join their program and then they show you their stripe dashboard. So stripe is a process, payment processing and it'll say like how much money they made in the month, right? And then there's this one person, name was Brandon Forbes, showed $207,000 a month that he was making. And then that's the point where you're like, oh, I could learn from this guy, right? And it's only going to cost like 2 to $5,000. Are you kidding me? Of course you want, if you see that stripe dashboard, you see $207,000. I want to learn from that guy. Right?

[Host]

I see, I see, I see your, I see your, I see your argument that it's like, yeah, if you're, if you're backing up your shit with unsubstantiated claims, then it is like a scam.

[Drew]

Yes, I see you go to. What they won't show you is the individual transactions. So they just show you the, like the graph that spikes up of how much money they made. But if you look at their individual, like their individual transactions, most of them are denied or they're failed, and that counts towards their gross income for the month. And, but that's not how much they make.

[Host]

Okay, so a guy. Okay, so hold on. Okay, so you had a scammy.

[Drew]

So much to unpack.

[Host]

Okay, so you had a scammy, I'm gonna coach you to coach other coaches. Person, Very brief. And, and then that person somehow connected you to this random guy who you called, trying to get him to sign up for you being a coach. And then that person was trying to get you to buy this Israeli spyware to hack into other people's phones. And then you said no, and then he used the spyware against you.

[Drew]

And now, well, when you put it.

[Sam]

That way.

[Host]

Is that, that's the story, correct?

[Drew]

Yeah, that. Yeah, that's. That's the story.

[Host]

Okay. So what? So what? Oh wait, so, so is he, he's listening to this right now. He's getting, he's, he's on the Patreon. He's getting the, the podcast early.

[Drew]

Yeah, sure. So. It's. At first I didn't notice anything. I called his bluff and he said, I'm going to put you in the loop. I'm. I'm going to like. He said that he has his own, like, group of people that he likes to just check in on every once in a while. Okay. And he said, I recorded this conversation and I want you to do what I say or else I'm gonna take your voice and splice it up in the little pit. The bits and pieces make you sound like a very terrible person. And I can just send little audio clips to random people, battery or whatever.

[Host]

I mean, people can do that with your voice. I mean anyone listening to this can do that with AI.

[Drew]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

And not that they should.

[Drew]

Not that they should. Please don't do that.

[Host]

I mean they could do that. There's enough.

[Drew]

But if you do. I didn't say it.

[Host]

I mean I've recorded 500. I mean I've recorded 500 plus hours of podcasts. I've said enough words in this podcast to give people like, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot of AI generated crap you could do with the library of my podcast. I mean, whatever if it should be. But anyway, okay, so he says that.

[Drew]

Yeah. And, And then, then I started noticing more glitches in my phone and I noticed my, specifically I noticed my nudes were deleted on my phone. I guess he didn't like what he was saying, but like even my locked folder in my phone, it was gone. You know the one that you need a password for, right? That like all, all Android phones have.

[Sam]

Uh huh.

[Drew]

And. Yeah. And I, it was maybe about a year later I started noticing that like my. I had a Google phone, a Google Pixel at the time and it was just like really going crazy, man. I don't. It was just like the. My whole phone was just like flickering like pretty much like a brand new phone. It was only like a year old. I never dropped, I never dropped it or anything. And just like my friend was like, oh, switching on iPhone. So like I have my whole life on like my phone. All of the pictures from like when smartphones just first came out basically. So I uploaded them to My Google Drive, I switched to an Apple and still, like, my. I had the iPhone 15 Pro Max at the time, and that was going crazy too. It was like. It was just like, turn on and turn off.

[Host]

And so this guy was hardcore. This guy was hardcore pegasusing.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Host]

Did he. Did he. So did he come back to you with any, like, weird, like, jigsaw messages of, like, you need to do this or else I'll delete more of your newsletter?

[Drew]

A bunch of text messages sent out to my friends.

[Host]

Whoa.

[Drew]

Off of my phone number. And then I've even had friends contact me, and I. And I text them, and I was like, yo, what do you say that for? And he was. And he was like, I. I literally. I never said that. I did not say that.

[Host]

Damn. So this guy's really with me.

[Drew]

Yeah, it's. It's like, ruining relationships. I lost my girlfriend at the time because, like, she just couldn't deal with the drama.

[Host]

She could deal with the drama of you that was happening in my life.

[Drew]

Yeah, I was just, like, in my business was just, like, we just went to. Not because the, like, coaching thing, but because, like, I, I. It was just every day of just, like, changing emails. I changed my phone number, like, three times. I changed phones. Like, I got a new phone. Like, kept on returning them while, like, doing it in a specific way where I can't be hacked. I called up Verizon. I changed my modem and my router. My. I got, like, three different laptops. I think it was, like, four different laptops. Nothing was working. It was just like my, like, my laptop screen was, like, flickering. And then, like, I would have windows that would pull up and close out. And then when I talked to the people at Micro center, which is kind of like a best Buy in the Midwest, they were like, oh, you have some spyware on your. On your laptop. I'm like, wait, what? They're like, yeah, someone is, like, remotely. Sounds like someone's remotely hacking you. I never told them anything of what I. Of what I just told you. They were just saying that those are the symptoms.

[Host]

Wait a minute.

[Drew]

So my podcast microphone was cutting on. Like, how did this person, like, listening,

[Host]

Mike, how did this person get the spyware on your thing?

[Drew]

Well, he had my phone number, and he knew what kind of phone I had. I don't. I don't know.

[Host]

Can I, like, now I'm working. Is he gonna. Is he gonna hack my gecko phone?

[Drew]

I mean, I don't. I don't know, because it only sounds contagious. Not as sporadic.

[Host]

Okay.

[Drew]

It's contagious.

[Host]

Well, it's. Now I have. Now I. Now there's. There's documented evidence on this podcast that I.

[Drew]

Well, don't come out.

[Sam]

Don't.

[Drew]

Don't sue me over this, because I don't have any money to.

[Host]

Why have you been. Okay, so what have the lawyers been saying?

[Drew]

So in. In a second. So, like, it was like last. Last year, on two different occasions, I was talking to my friend. This is how I knew that he was listening to my, like, phone conversation. I was talking to my friend just casually, because I'm a truck driver now. And we were both hands free. Like, he was talking on his. Through his truck. And I was. I have a headset that when I'm driving, I can talk to people. And in the middle of his sentence, we both heard this phone call is being recorded. And I. And he was like, wait, what? Are you recording me? I'm like, no. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, he's still listening to me. He's still bugging me.

[Host]

Dude, I really don't know what you're telling. I really hope you're telling me the truth and you're not just like, schizophrenia.

[Drew]

I wish, man. No, man. Even on my Instagram from, like, a couple of years ago, I have a picture of my phone from the. My camera app. Like, I had my camera app up. I was actually filming my documentary, and I was setting up my tripod, and my phone took a picture of. Took a picture of me. If you want, I can even send you.

[Host]

You don't have to. You don't. I don't. Actually. I don't want to. I want to have as little amount of technological interaction with you as humanly possible, actually.

[Drew]

So when I was putting in my. Because I use my phone as a mirror sometimes in my truck, I was putting in my contacts. The day before Thanksgiving last year, I was taking my contacts out, and my phone took a picture of me. And I have all those settings turned off where it's like, if you smile or if you say smile or if you have your hand, I have all those settings turned off. Because I'm so, like, so paranoid at this point. My phone took a picture of me and caught me off guard. And then I'm just, like, staring at my camera, not making it. I'm not saying anything or do anything. I'm just staring at my. My. My phone, and it just takes another picture of me, a second photo right after another. So, like.

[Host]

So what did the lawyers. What did the Lawyers say. Did they say anything?

[Drew]

Yeah, so he said that they said, because I talked to Netgear, NEC EAR said to talk to the FBI. Lawyer said to talk to the FBI. And they can scrape my phone, see my metadata, and then maybe I can use that to do something either to go after Google or find out who is doing this to me.

[Host]

And so did you contact the FBI?

[Drew]

Not yet. I'm gonna do that in a couple of days.

[Host]

Dude, how did this guy get.

[Drew]

I'm on the road.

[Host]

This is crazy. I'm like on the Wikipedia page of this. This is crazy. So this. So this exists? You can just like.

[Drew]

Yes, get.

[Host]

How did this guy get this? It seems like it's like a government technology.

[Drew]

I don't know if it's specifically Pegasus or maybe the guy worked at Google for all I know. Or like Verizon. Because, like, if. If you have a problem with your phone. Because I've looked into this for last couple of. For, I guess, the last year or so. It. Like, if you have a problem with your phone, you can call up like @t or Verizon or whatever, and they can just remotely go into your phone. So like someone rogue at Verizon or AT&T could possibly do that, you know, and all you'd have to do is just send them a link and then they click on the, like, blue text and then they're in your phone.

[Host]

Well, damn, dude, you're making. I'm looking at this Wikipedia page. I'm about to put on my tinfoil hat. This is. This is.

[Drew]

Yeah, no, you know what, man?

[Host]

I gotta. I just. I just miss. I just miss so deeply, like, what life was like before I knew anything. No, just before I knew about anything. You know, like when I was just a. You were being a kid, remember? Like being outside, you know, you're just a kid. You're riding a bike. You're not thinking about fucking governments. Using high powered saw spyware to, you know, you don't care. You don't even care about, like, the. The greater.

[Drew]

Yeah, whatever.

[Host]

You just want to look.

[Drew]

Yeah. Without, like the doomsday news that's going on every day.

[Host]

Listen, man, I hope the FBI helps you get your. Get your nudes back.

[Drew]

Yeah, I mean, but like, here's another thing, man. Do I really want the feds going through my phone too? You know, I don't have anything to hide, but I mean, do I need them to be like, oh, well, look at this guy. All right, yeah, well, we'll just delete this stuff and then whatever you know,

[Host]

I mean, like, I don't know if you. I mean. Well, that's for you to decide. You're like, do I want this random, weird guy looking through my phone? Or where the feds. You know, you don't want either of them look at your phone.

[Drew]

Yeah. Do I?

[Host]

It's kind of like. It's kind of like saying, like, I actually. I don't know if it's like this at all, but go ahead. It's like, would I rather get, like, you know, like, have a stranger put their hand up my ass or, like, a TSA agent? You know?

[Drew]

That's a good way to put it.

[Host]

Neither. Neither is, like, enjoyable, but I'd rather it be the person who is.

[Drew]

That's trained it to do so.

[Host]

Yeah, trained is. Is part of an institution that I guess. Yeah, part of an institution that I guess we have some form of trust in still. But I won't discuss that, because this is really that kind of. You know, it's not really that kind of podcast. I'm not really in a gecko wars kind of a. Kind of a thing.

[Drew]

What.

[Host]

What's your name again, man?

[Drew]

Drew.

[Host]

Drew. It's been interesting talking to you, Drew. I appreciate you telling me about all this stuff. Although it's gonna be harder to sleep at night.

[Drew]

How do you think I feel for the last. Yeah, two years? And, hey, when you're talking to you. When I'm talking to my best friend about just, you know, whatever, and then you hear this phone call is being recorded.

[Host]

I was. I really. I. It would make me laugh so hard if I heard that right now.

[Drew]

Oh, maybe. Maybe he's on break.

[Host]

Yeah, maybe's on break. Hey, hey, you know what? Okay, before we go, listen, I'm going to speak directly to the person who was hacking. I mean, this is a public conversation, so whatever. But, you know, I'm gonna speak directly to the person who's hacking Drew's phone, and I'm gonna say this. I think using government spyware on someone's phone is mean, and it's bullying them, and it's. And it's mean. He shouldn't do it. That's my official stance.

[Drew]

Get him gag.

[Host]

Is there anything else you want to say to the people at the computer before we go?

[Drew]

Yeah, I think nothing in life has any meaning except for the meaning that you give it.

[Host]

Swag out. Thank you, Drew.

[Drew]

Thank you.

[Host]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.