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Claire Aubin
A list of sensitive themes and topics included in this episode can be found in the episode description.
Host/Interviewer
Welcome to this Guy Sucked, the show,
Claire Aubin
where we prove that it's never too late to have haters and you can't libel the dead. Claire, I'm your host, Claire Aubin, and I'm a historian, writer, and most importantly, as we all know, certified hater. On this show, we talk about people from throughout history with legacies that need a little updating. Whether it's because of their politics, their behavior, or their impact on society and culture, these guys actually kind of sucked. And we bring in a new scholar
Host/Interviewer
every week to tell us why.
Claire Aubin
With me today is Devin Thomas o', Shea, a journalist and historian who teaches at Saint Louis University and whose writing you can find in places like the Nation, Slate, and Jacobin, among others.
Host/Interviewer
Like a lot of others, this is a very, very truncated list.
Co-host/Contributor
He's got a new book that caught
Host/Interviewer
my eye even before we were in talks to have him on the show. So I was very excited when this came to fruition. It's called the Veiled Secret Societies, White Supremacy, and the struggle for St. Louis. Welcome to the show, Claire.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Thank you for having me on.
Co-host/Contributor
To be a hater.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's one of my favorite activities.
Host/Interviewer
Well, great.
Co-host/Contributor
This is a safe space for you and not for the person we're talking about.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I mean, they're dead. They can't be. You know, I guess Alonzo is probably, like, following me around in the afterlife
Co-host/Contributor
as, like, a ghostly visage and just
Devin Thomas O'Shea
being like, man, I hope you, like,
Co-host/Contributor
stub your toe or whatever.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I don't know how much ghosts can, like, do to people from beyond the veil. But, yeah, if he is, he's hating on me.
Co-host/Contributor
I'm just hating back. You know, it's a mutual relationship.
I think that's totally fair.
Host/Interviewer
And also, him being a spooky ghost guy, being horrible in the afterlife fits everything that I know about this man, which, admittedly, is little compared to you.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I mean, a lot of it is in that book. We cover a lot of Alonzo in
Co-host/Contributor
that first part, especially including the magnificent ending that I can't wait to talk about.
Host/Interviewer
I am very excited about that in particular. So I like to start with a question usually, and this is probably one that you've been asked before, so please feel free to, like, roll your eyes at me when I ask it.
Co-host/Contributor
Never.
Host/Interviewer
If you were going to invent a secret society, what would you be doing? What things would you incorporate?
Co-host/Contributor
Oh, this is a great, great, great question.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I think the most important Thing that I've learned from secret societies is that you have to have a silly costume. You have to have like the veiled prophet, of course, a beautiful example of
Co-host/Contributor
just like a strange looking guy in a costume.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But also you have like the Masonic bibs. You know, if you've ever seen like
Co-host/Contributor
George Washington sort of having a bib
Devin Thomas O'Shea
is like a crazy accoutrement, you know, because it does kind of look cool. You know, if you have like a suit on and a bib that's kind of like a flex, I don't know, I like it. So I'd need something like that, some sort of like hat maybe that would also signal to other people in the society.
Co-host/Contributor
Society that like, yeah, I've got a tricorn hat on in like 2026 or something. I recognize.
Host/Interviewer
I like that. The main thing you've decided to incorporate is not a ritual, just like an
Co-host/Contributor
outfit, it's like an accessory.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's a fashion statement.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah, absolutely.
You just have to look fly as
Devin Thomas O'Shea
long as you can go out in public and be like, ah, damn, there
Co-host/Contributor
goes one of like the neo masons in the tricorn hat. You know, that's the most important that
Devin Thomas O'Shea
is a big part of secret societies is like, oh, they're secret, they're so cult and they have so much like hidden knowledge. But it's like you can't have a
Co-host/Contributor
secret society without peacocking about it, you know?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah. You have to let other people know
Co-host/Contributor
that like, don't worry, I'm a master mason, you know, I'm up in this structure.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah, I will say so. Some may know I teach at a university which is famous for having social clubs within it of a, of a, of a town.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
One of my favorite of a brand
Host/Interviewer
that's part of our campus lore.
Claire Aubin
And I will say it's quite funny
Host/Interviewer
to be walking around at night and seeing 19 year olds in cloaks.
Co-host/Contributor
Sure.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
And you know, these people will have power over all of us one day.
Co-host/Contributor
But it is funny to be like that could be a student whose paper I'm on my way to grade as
Devin Thomas O'Shea
we speak and he's dressed in a cloak and he has to go kiss
Co-host/Contributor
a skull and then later they're going to go to their island and like,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
you know, allegedly, the normal stuff that.
Co-host/Contributor
Allegedly. Allegedly. No one would ever.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Have you ever seen the Skulls? The movie?
Host/Interviewer
No.
Co-host/Contributor
Adding to list, highly recommended.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's got Pacey from Dawson's Creek in
Co-host/Contributor
it and it's just like this hyper dramatic skull and bones thing and they take lots of liberties to make it, you know, who knows what they're actually doing in there?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I don't.
Co-host/Contributor
And I don't claim to.
Host/Interviewer
I don't. I don't know. I don't know what secret society rituals I would have in my secret society. I do think the accessorizing is important to it.
Co-host/Contributor
It is, for sure.
Host/Interviewer
I didn't even really consider the costuming aspect, which also goes to. Says a lot about your guys, your society, and how important the costume thing is to them.
Co-host/Contributor
Yes, it got real important.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Speaking of the ritual, you always have to have something where every initiation is always.
Co-host/Contributor
We were talking about certain associations that's well known for having you get into
Devin Thomas O'Shea
a coffin and sort of like ceremonially
Co-host/Contributor
die and then you become reborn.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
So we would have to factor in something like that with also the fashion statements like maybe after you get resurrected,
Co-host/Contributor
you get to wear the tricorn hat.
Host/Interviewer
This is sort of. Is this the third or fourth time I've brought up Dune on the show? But you know the part where he drinks the, like, blue worm stuff and then dies and come yet or she does not. He. He doesn't. Who does it?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
He does it, she does it, he
Host/Interviewer
does it, she does it.
Co-host/Contributor
I can't remember now.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Isn't it, Timothy, that listeners get in the comments. Get in the comments. Tell us about Dune.
Co-host/Contributor
Someone drinks the worm stuff.
Host/Interviewer
I think she does it, and that's how she gets all the knowledge.
Co-host/Contributor
Oh, that's right. Yes.
Host/Interviewer
And that's why her eyes turn blue.
Co-host/Contributor
Yes, that is correct.
Host/Interviewer
I don't know. Someone drinks the worm stuff, they die, they come back, and then they get to wear a funky outfit.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Classic hero narrative, right? That you have to sort of venture into the realm of the dead and
Co-host/Contributor
come back with new knowledge. You've seen all of time.
I just know listeners are being like, what is wrong with.
Yeah.
Why can't they remember a basic fact about Dune? Who drinks the blue stuff?
It's been a minute.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Okay, I. I gotta go back to them. They haven't put out a new one
Co-host/Contributor
recently, so it's coming out in before too long.
I think the Frank Herbert heads are screaming.
Well, that's fair.
Host/Interviewer
And I've actually read.
Co-host/Contributor
Oh, have you?
Host/Interviewer
Yes. So it's extra embarrassing on this front. But you know what? My brain is chock full of knowledge.
Co-host/Contributor
Okay. Yeah, I got a lot of Nazis in here.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
A lot of Nazis up here. Thinking about a lot of swastikas.
Co-host/Contributor
We should probably talk about the guy
Host/Interviewer
who sucks at some point.
Co-host/Contributor
Absolutely.
Host/Interviewer
Who's your guy?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
My guy, and I think he has
Co-host/Contributor
just such a beautiful name for a guy who sucked. Alonzo Slayback, also a good drag name.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Oh, yeah, Slayback.
Co-host/Contributor
Ah, that's right, yes.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I'm just saying he had a nickname
Co-host/Contributor
also, which was Lon, given to him by his mother. So Lon Slayback, that would kind of
Devin Thomas O'Shea
be a cool drag name.
Co-host/Contributor
But you're retaking sort of the Confederate uniform and putting a twist on it. Maybe that could be problematic. Who knows? As with all of the veiled stuff. Yeah. The costuming is problematic.
Host/Interviewer
Lon Slayback is kind of giving Star Wars a little bit, though.
Co-host/Contributor
He's also in the cantina and represents the old south in alien form. He's got like a cappy hat on Tatooine. It's just like. Okay. I don't know, George.
Host/Interviewer
I was gonna say George Lucas has him killed because he's like my heavy handed metaphor about Vietnam needs to also
Co-host/Contributor
include the death of the south will not rise again.
Exactly. Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
We're doing sort of an Iraq War
Co-host/Contributor
parable about like Senate space politics and also Alonzo.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And we got to get a dig
Co-host/Contributor
in at the Confederacy too.
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
And they have to kill him in the way that he is actually killed in real life in order to circle back around.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Honestly. There is a shootout. Yeah. He did shoot first. Or who did.
Host/Interviewer
I know.
Co-host/Contributor
I'm talking.
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Crazy.
Co-host/Contributor
We're cooking on this.
Host/Interviewer
So Alonzo slash Lon Slayback, what is he? Well, I don't know if fate, I mean, I guess he's famous. He's famous enough that there's like a wiki site about.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Do you know about this?
Host/Interviewer
There's like a fandom wiki, military wiki site about him. So, yeah, he is a known figure to some extent. What's his deal before we get really to why he sucks the general deal?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I mean, I think that he fits in so well with the podcast ethos because like you're saying, basically a few years ago, if you were interested in Alonzo, you would either be a Civil War buff or you would know about the Veiled prophet society in St. Louis and you would have read some sort of glossed over history about like Alonzo Slayback and his brother Charles decided that they wanted to found a civic organization that wanted to give back to St. Louis and they founded the Veiled Prophet. And that's basically the whole story.
Co-host/Contributor
Please don't look into what he was up to before that or like any of his other stuff.
And don't Google the veiled prophet.
No, don't do that.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Just trust us that it's cool and on the level and that everybody's pretty. You know, it's a ubiquitously loved thing in St. Louis.
Co-host/Contributor
Everybody. Nobody likes it.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
That's the sort of. That is the general gloss.
Co-host/Contributor
Like, when I was growing up in St. Louis, this was just like.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
That was enough to deter a lot
Co-host/Contributor
of people from, like, thinking critically about any of that.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But as we're saying, Alonzo, born in Plum Grove, Missouri, which is north of St. Louis, he was just born into this period of American history where, like, the Midwest was on fire with politics
Co-host/Contributor
because of westward expansion. And so whenever we're talking about this,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I think it's useful to think about the United States continentally as not basically
Co-host/Contributor
having California yet and sort of everything ending at the Mississippi river and then just the west on the other side of it.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so Alonzo basically is born on the western frontier. His father is a Mason.
Co-host/Contributor
I think it's very interesting that he's
Devin Thomas O'Shea
born into a Masonic legacy. His dad dies of cholera at 30
Co-host/Contributor
and he's already got like four kids, which is also very Victorian.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then he goes to a Masonic
Co-host/Contributor
college because his father was a Mason for free.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And he's just surrounded by occult mythology. And then he ends up sort of
Co-host/Contributor
in the Kansas, Missouri border wars. Right when they're popping off. He's like a young man ready to go, which, you know.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Claire, have you ever been out to Missouri? Have you been to the Midwest?
Host/Interviewer
You know. Okay, so let me just preface this by saying I have not been to Missouri. I have done a cross country road trip to move from California to New
Claire Aubin
England, where I currently live.
Host/Interviewer
So I have seen much of the Midwest. I am from the West West.
Co-host/Contributor
There you go.
Host/Interviewer
Like the West West.
Co-host/Contributor
Absolutely.
Host/Interviewer
Which we talked about with Megan Kate Nelson on her episode of the show. I spent time in places like Amarillo, Texas.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Beautiful.
Host/Interviewer
Which is where my partner is from.
Co-host/Contributor
Nice.
But I have managed to avoid Missouri.
Host/Interviewer
And that makes it sound like I'm attempting to do it, but I have not been to Missouri. So I will need a little bit of a primer on this. But I will say you have managed to skirt around a very important detail now twice in this that I'm really excited for you to get to, which is you've said Civil War buff and fought.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah, right. He. That Alonzo was a Confederate cavalry officer, basically.
Co-host/Contributor
Right.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But even before that, like, he was destined to be a man on horseback charging into a firefight for literally the most heinous.
Co-host/Contributor
Sort of causes.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
He was just a full throated supporter of slavery.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
Co-host/Contributor
So Alonzo was a pro slavery. Just like. We'll also talk more about how just chivalry was like a huge thing for
Devin Thomas O'Shea
him and that he wanted to fight for the south to let slavery spread into the west and get all the way. There's the sort of pressure cooker theory
Co-host/Contributor
of the Civil War is like the slavery model economically, as Du Bois talks about in black Reconstruction breaking down, not profitable.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
As soon as you're not getting new
Co-host/Contributor
shipments of slaves from the Triangle trade, then the plantation morphs into like the most disgusting and heinous version of itself and, like it needs to expand. And so I forgive you for not
Devin Thomas O'Shea
visiting Missouri because it's also a very
Co-host/Contributor
evil place with a lot of evil stuff that has happened here.
Oh, okay.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's beautiful. I love St. Louis.
Co-host/Contributor
I'm a full throated, you know, St. Louis advocate.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And I will also say everything is
Co-host/Contributor
covered in blood out here and it's just part of it.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. I was trying really hard not to like slander Missouri because I was like, you know, you could be like the
Co-host/Contributor
biggest Missouri booster and you're like, look, base level of understanding. A haunted, cursed, haunted, cursed land.
Yes.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
So much pain and suffering basically around every corner. So understandable but great. A lot of beautiful forests. There's a lot of beautiful rivers and wildlife.
Co-host/Contributor
And also St. Louis is cool.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Steam boats, steamboats. We love a good steamboat.
Co-host/Contributor
Very important.
That's my knowledge of.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
That's about it. When I was growing up, I was always. I hated the steamboat stuff.
Co-host/Contributor
I just seemed like the most boring. No.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But I have come to a more, you know, I've become a more mature
Co-host/Contributor
historian and now I understand. Like, actually steamboats were kind of goated with it. Like they were very important.
Right.
Host/Interviewer
It's Freud who says that the sign of the transition to adulthood is deep and abiding interest in. He doesn't say this.
Co-host/Contributor
I said this. Deep and abiding interest in transportation. All of a sudden you hit like 30 and you're like, you know, I
Host/Interviewer
think I might be a public transit head. I think I might love trains.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I think that that is.
Co-host/Contributor
I believe this. I think you should advance this theory
Devin Thomas O'Shea
because it does seem like at some point when you're growing up, it's like, God, it's like, why can't we get
Co-host/Contributor
people around all over faster? And then you're like, steamboats. Steamboats were important.
Host/Interviewer
You first start with that and then you're like, now I have to get really into Japan, because they've figured it out.
Co-host/Contributor
They figured it out. Yeah.
The slippery slope from St. Louis.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
You're going down the rabbit hole on YouTube watching like the train advocates who
Co-host/Contributor
really get into it when the train comes. I love that. I love seeing the pure enthusiasm of that, for sure.
Anyway, anyway.
Claire Aubin
Hello everybody, it's Claire. If you're hearing me, that means you're currently listening to the free version of our show. Because we're trying to make accessible, engaging history independently and sustainably. We switch off between free weeks and Patreon weeks. So if you're a fan of public history made by actual experts and it's in the budget for you, consider supporting our Patreon. It's only one tier, which means everyone who subscribes gets access to the same perks across the board. For the price of a pint of beer, you'll get access to a new episode every week instead of just the bi weekly free ones. And they'll all be ad free for you. You'll also get access to the full episode archive, bonus content, early access to merch, and lots of other fun Patreon exclusives to sweeten the deal. Just head over to patreon.com thisguysucked or follow the link in our episode description to sign up.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This kind of does dovetail with what we're talking about because the steamboat is making St. Louis into a rival to
Co-host/Contributor
New York City in this period at the turn of the century after the Civil War.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But everybody's pretty sure that it's going
Co-host/Contributor
to become this very important transit network
Devin Thomas O'Shea
because you got to get over that
Co-host/Contributor
Mississippi river, you got to build a
Devin Thomas O'Shea
bridge as soon as the railroad sort
Co-host/Contributor
of stuff, it terminates in St. Louis.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then politicians, especially from the 1800s,
Co-host/Contributor
spend their entire lives trying to get the transcontinental railroad to work.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so this all becomes the stakes
Co-host/Contributor
for what Alonzo is kind of fighting for on the Kansas, Missouri border.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
He's over in St. Joseph, Missouri for a long time pretending to study law
Co-host/Contributor
and actually sort of like stockpiling guns and ammunition for what we don't know
Devin Thomas O'Shea
is the Confederacy yet, but is like
Co-host/Contributor
forming into the Jefferson Davis splinter cult.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
So there's a lot of bloody stuff
Co-host/Contributor
happening on that, the pre Civil War era that he gets involved with a lot of raiding. They sack Lawrence, Kansas, which is also very beautiful town in the Midwest.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And Alonzo ends up just joining right away. And what was your impression of his
Co-host/Contributor
military career, if you had to boil
Host/Interviewer
it down, I mean, while reading this? So I read the Book. And then I also was doing some Googling. Like I said, I was in his. I want to find this Wikipedia page again, the Slaybacks Missouri Cavalry Regiment fandom
Co-host/Contributor
page for this, which is crazy.
Slaybacks, lancers. Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
Military history.fandom.com for this. Some things seemed like he was good at them. Other things seem like people fucking hated him.
Co-host/Contributor
So I can't really figure out what the deal is with this guy.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
He's a man of extremes. Because my like in general impression is that he is the loudest, most obnoxious cavalry officer and that there's a reputation
Co-host/Contributor
that cavalry officers have in this era
Devin Thomas O'Shea
is that they're crazy because you literally
Co-host/Contributor
have to get on a horse and charge into musket fire.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
So Alonzo is both hyper enthusiastic and wants to die gloriously.
Co-host/Contributor
Just like all the poetry he's reading, he's also writing a lot of poetry.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
So he's sort of a chivalry worshiping
Co-host/Contributor
Confederate pro slavery psycho.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But then there's. There's the flip side of it where he is like always sick. He is just like. If he's not charging into battle, he is a wilting violet who is like
Co-host/Contributor
stricken with scarlet fever and is like on a cot, like laying down, which is cool.
Host/Interviewer
He's kind of doing the two things people imagine during the Civil War, which is either like doing something actually insane or deeply in pain somewhere rotting.
Co-host/Contributor
Basically.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
You're looking at your foot, it's turning colors that you didn't know was possible
Co-host/Contributor
because you got like shrapnel in it like three weeks ago.
Yeah.
The doctor hasn't gotten around to cutting it off.
Claire Aubin
Yeah, I just.
Host/Interviewer
Okay, here's a proposal also for any historians who are interested in this. And this will also almost certainly betray my ignorance. This probably exists. These guys are charging into war right on their horses. They're getting shot. We're like, they're so crazy. What's going on with the horses? Like the horses are dying.
Co-host/Contributor
Oh yeah.
But like, where's the.
Host/Interviewer
I would.
Co-host/Contributor
My proposal. This is stupid. My proposal is for someone to write something about the horses. Please.
Host/Interviewer
Cuz I am not a horse girl.
Co-host/Contributor
But I do wanna know what the
Host/Interviewer
economy horses in war is, please.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I think, Yeah, I think that it was a very casual sort of like
Co-host/Contributor
another horse got shot because they're a giant bullet sponge.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But like, yeah, it does seem very ineffective. My big takeaway, this is in the
Co-host/Contributor
Civil War sort of like historical sense.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This is the trans Mississippian theater. Most of the Civil War stuff is
Co-host/Contributor
happening in your east coast, you know, around Richmond and, you know, all of Bull Run, all that stuff.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then there's this, like, sort of side craziness happening out on the other
Co-host/Contributor
side of the Mississippi river and that
Devin Thomas O'Shea
there's, like, a ton of people getting marched to death in the heat. Like, half of fighting the Civil War
Co-host/Contributor
is just, like, getting somewhere and not dying of thirst or hunger.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And I do wonder if, like. Yeah, what was, like, the horse situation? Because I bet they also looted a
Co-host/Contributor
bunch of horses from, like.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Imagine a horse hanging out in a, like, beautiful farm.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then, like, Alonzo Slayback just hikes over the fence and it's like, hey, buddy, we're gonna go charge into battle for slavery together.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah. First step, imagine you're a horse is hilarious. Second step, you're about to experience horror.
Horror.
Host/Interviewer
So I'm adding animal death to our
Co-host/Contributor
list of sensitive content notes on this, which I think the first time we've had to do that.
Host/Interviewer
Sure.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Happy to be a friend.
Co-host/Contributor
It's my fault, to be clear.
Yeah, absolutely.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Gotta give people fair warning.
Host/Interviewer
And part of this also, I will add, is that the Civil War thing. The Civil War thing.
Co-host/Contributor
The Civil War.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
That whole thing.
Host/Interviewer
That whole thing is, as Megan Nelson said, part of this is that, like, we are often missing the fact that the Civil War is, in large part being fought over. Like, is there going to be slavery in the West? Like, not just free state slave states, north, south stuff, but, like, there's an expansion westward. And they're being like, well, what's gonna happen out there? And so Missouri is a space in which that is, in particular is very important, like, the. What's happening in this expansion. So that's also why some of these people feel so strongly, because they're like, people are moving through here, they're moving west, they're gonna go in that direction. And we need to know what our economic situation is going to look like as a result of that as well. So, I mean, I don't know whether it's a useful dimension here, but I
Claire Aubin
think it's an interesting one in terms
Host/Interviewer
of thinking, like, why does this man care so much?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
No, that's a beautiful thing to bring up because. And this is the most obnoxious thing
Co-host/Contributor
that a Civil War history person can
Devin Thomas O'Shea
say, but, like, that conflict is super active still.
Co-host/Contributor
It's, like, encoded in the American DNA.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And especially, as you're saying, the people who end up on the border of
Co-host/Contributor
Missouri, in Kansas are radicalized on both sides.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
If you are a free soiler and an abolitionist, the most Profound thing you can do is move to Kansas and
Co-host/Contributor
try to start setting up a anti slavery government in the new territories that are coming about.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And likewise Missouri becomes a absolutely insane
Co-host/Contributor
place for pro slavery forces. Right.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
If you look at a map of like the Civil War, Missouri is always like shaded differently. We're not really sure if it was part of the Confederacy or not. And that is because, and this is still true today, St. Louis is a very progressive, beautiful city with a rich history of socialists, especially German socialists who
Co-host/Contributor
come over from the failure of the 48 revolutions. They settle in St. Louis and they
Devin Thomas O'Shea
take up the Civil War mantle as like the slave owner is the exact
Co-host/Contributor
same oppressive dictatorship as the monarchy and the church and they gotta go.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so St. Louis becomes this Union loyal Abraham Lincoln pro set of both ammunition guns, strategic location on the river and the rest of Missouri is totally controlled by the most psychotic pro slavery guys around. There's a governor named David Rice Acheson who when they were sacking Lawrence, he went to the site of the battle and personally fired a cannon at Lawrence. So like Missouri is at war with Kansas itself. It's an interesting set of politics because
Co-host/Contributor
that's also where the Potawatomi massacre happens with John Brown.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This is like still encoded in the
Co-host/Contributor
state in a profound way. I was writing about how for the
Devin Thomas O'Shea
nation Missouri politics is totally dominated by
Co-host/Contributor
Republicans and this reactionary, you know, right
Devin Thomas O'Shea
wing ethos and that St. Louis makes
Co-host/Contributor
up 40% of the GDP. All of the like, when you think of Missouri, you're mostly thinking about St. Louis or Kansas City. And yet we're totally dominated by the rural hinterlands. It's just the same dynamic.
Host/Interviewer
What gets slayback into the Confederacy? Like what makes him someone who is interested? Like we know he's pro slavery, but do you know why he like decides that this is going to be one of his things?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I mean, maybe to get a little psychoanalytic with it, but I think it's the loss of his father.
Co-host/Contributor
Okay.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I think that him being fatherless made him want to join a masculinist sort of chivalry cult. And that like at the time there is also another secret society called the
Co-host/Contributor
Knights of the Golden Circle, which was a proto Confederate secret society.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
There's a whole masculine cult of like trying to indoctrinate young men into the sort of Confederacy pipeline. Because slavery has more had its eyes set on Mexico and spreading into South America.
Co-host/Contributor
They needed a lot of guys on horseback to go and do a lot of brutal stuff in order to make that happen. And therefore, I think you get this culture of masculinist, like, pro slavery.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This is what it means to be
Co-host/Contributor
a knight and to fight for beauty and blah, blah, blah, which is just proto master race stuff.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
Claire Aubin
I mean, it does actually make a lot of sense. And I don't think that it takes
Host/Interviewer
a lot of psychoanalytic thinking to be like, people miss a certain kind of structure or feel that they lack a certain kind of structure and then seek it out somewhere else. And it happens to be in a moment when there's a group being like, hey, we're dudes and we would love you to come and hang out with us.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah. And we got secrets.
We got secrets.
Host/Interviewer
And, you know, if you do this, you get to ride horses, like, and be really hyper macho.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Absolutely. You get a saber, you get a gun.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
A cool hat. Amazing. Because there's also rival sort of abolitionist organizations.
Co-host/Contributor
I've also written about the Turner Halls, which the Germans brought over that were like the first gymnasiums where you could get, like, absolutely swole and then, like, drink a ton of beer and like, hang out and talk German philosophy and about how much you want to kill a slave owner.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
So there's also a war for the youthful masculine sort of power that's happening
Co-host/Contributor
in the lead up.
Host/Interviewer
Question, is that a possible solution?
Co-host/Contributor
Okay, wait.
Host/Interviewer
To the manosphere. But I think I'm just proposing basically, Hasan Piker versus the manosphere, which a
Co-host/Contributor
million people have already done. So I am not coming up with anything new.
Host/Interviewer
Hasan Piker is question mark. The Turner Hall.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yes.
Co-host/Contributor
I think we're on to something here.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I think we're getting there. Yeah, I think so. Honestly, in a big way, Claire, what you're saying is Slayback is a lot like the clavicular of his era and that he's looksmaxing, but that involved a
Co-host/Contributor
sort of different set of qualities back then. Yeah, yeah.
Host/Interviewer
Looks maxing, not thought maxing. And that's.
Co-host/Contributor
That's the enemy of looksmaxing in a big way. Actually thinking things through or being critical in any way.
Host/Interviewer
You can tell listeners that we are both at the end of our semesters right now, so the.
Co-host/Contributor
The insanity has really set in.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Just doing free association about current politics
Co-host/Contributor
and Dune looks maxing the manosphere, the Civil War, who knows?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Who knows?
Co-host/Contributor
Trains.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
No, no, no, no, no, no. We're coming up with some good stuff.
Co-host/Contributor
I hope people are writing this down.
Yeah. If anyone's listening, please come back to
Host/Interviewer
me when you have, for me, created
Co-host/Contributor
a good structural framework for what's happening. In this episode.
Host/Interviewer
Okay, so he's in the Confederate Army. He's started this thing. Slaybacks Cavalry Regiment.
Co-host/Contributor
What's happening with that?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I think that he distinguished himself in battle over and over again by being one of the craziest white boys to ever do it.
Co-host/Contributor
Of just, like, charging into battle.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
They were like, somebody get this guy
Co-host/Contributor
a bunch of other guys on horses to sort of command.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so you get Slayback's Lancers, which
Co-host/Contributor
is important for later in the Veiled Prophet society stuff.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
There's a, like, military Orientalist cavalry section
Co-host/Contributor
that's called the Bengal Lancers. And I think that this is a nod to that, but also Orientalist. So.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah, we can talk about that more in just a second because I. I mean, you talk about Orientalism actually, like, a lot in the book, but the.
Co-host/Contributor
It's.
Host/Interviewer
It is. Some of it is wild when you get to the veiled prophets of how much they're like. Like, let's do some mysterious Eastern things.
Co-host/Contributor
Yes, absolutely.
Let's make up some history, guys. It's time.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's like European mythology is washed. I want to be a sultan.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
Like, the men crave the Ottoman Empire.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah. In a big way.
Okay.
Host/Interviewer
So he has this crazy regiment. They do all this stuff. They're at a bunch of battles, like we have written here. They were at the battle of Pilot Knob. Pilot Knob, Is that right?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah. It's an interesting.
Co-host/Contributor
I didn't.
Pilot Knob. Interesting.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Okay.
Co-host/Contributor
Freud would say something about that, too.
Host/Interviewer
Psychoanalytically, we can.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
A bunch of men fighting over the Pilot Knob.
Co-host/Contributor
Interesting. Okay.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This is in the sort of, like,
Co-host/Contributor
southern western corner of Missouri is where
Devin Thomas O'Shea
most of this stuff is going on. This theater is mostly locked down. What's happening is that the Union has a bunch of strongholds like in St.
Co-host/Contributor
Louis and the forts in Missouri and along the river.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Basically locked up because of the heroism
Co-host/Contributor
of The German socialist 48ers who kept the armory that was in downtown St. Louis out of the hands of the Confederacy.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so this whole theater that's happening with old Pap Price, who was the
Co-host/Contributor
sort of Confederate leader here, it is
Devin Thomas O'Shea
an annoyance, and it is kind of rightfully a sideshow to, like, the real
Co-host/Contributor
action of, like, the Confederate army might take the Capitol, that kind of thing.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But there's a lot of battles. There's a lot of running around, stealing
Co-host/Contributor
what you can from farms and like,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
threatening to, you know, siege a military base. The Confederates, I think, from people smarter
Co-host/Contributor
than me, have criticized this part as,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
like, they kind of rejected what won
Co-host/Contributor
the Revolutionary War of like doing some guerrilla theater, hijacking, like supply lines. Right.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
They're like, nah, we would rather have,
Co-host/Contributor
like, a big battle and like, kind of do the formal military thing.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And I think a lot of people
Co-host/Contributor
say that was a mistake and that they could have been more effective the other way.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
In any case, Alonzo becomes a big
Co-host/Contributor
wheel in this machine along with Joe Shelby, who is his commanding officer.
Host/Interviewer
I mean, also, when we say mistake, we mean mistaken asterisks. As in, like, some would consider it a mistake.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Oh, yeah. Some would consider it a mistake. Hypothetically. It's also. Yeah, it's a mitzvah that they were not getting more effective.
Co-host/Contributor
It is like, yeah, mistake as in. And they would consider it a mistake. We're like, keep going. Great job, guys.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Great job, guys.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Don't continue only doing battles.
Absolutely.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I mean, I also think it speaks to a certain amount of hubris that
Co-host/Contributor
some of the Confederate officers had about
Devin Thomas O'Shea
that we were going to militarily outflank
Co-host/Contributor
and like, do a big wraparound maneuver that just didn't happen, basically.
Yeah. Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Thank God.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. I mean, this lasts until the end of the Civil War. Doing all this stuff. And then he goes to me, goes to Mexico. Is kind of.
Co-host/Contributor
He's like, exiled kind of in Mexico. Is that the best way to describe this?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah. Does exiled sound too negative or. It's safe to say. This is another thing that I think is an important juncture is just like, Alonzo Slayback, Joe Shelby. They are afraid that the Union army is going to come through and just be like, all right, buddy, up against the wall.
Co-host/Contributor
And then that's it.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
That there's going to be mass executions or you're going to end up in a jail and you're going to get
Co-host/Contributor
dysentery and it's just going to be a whole mess.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so they basically devise a plan of, like, we are going to nobly and in a sort of poetic way,
Co-host/Contributor
leave the country that we just got our asses kicked in and then, like,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
try to may do something down in Mexico. Following this pattern of thought that the
Co-host/Contributor
pro slavery forces were heading coded into the Knights of the golden Circle, which was like, what we really need to
Devin Thomas O'Shea
do is just spread slavery one way or another.
Host/Interviewer
I mean, it's a, I think, a common tale actually, of guys who strike out and are like, time to go to Thailand.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
You know, like, well, I've sort of been disgraced here.
Co-host/Contributor
Let's try it over again.
Host/Interviewer
But somewhere where their economy is less strong than my one. And I can just do whatever and hopefully it'll be fine.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Which is also an egotistical mistake because they do not understand the politics of
Co-host/Contributor
Mexico when they're going down towards Mexico City. Sure. And I'm not a expert in Mexican history, unfortunately.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's really, really fascinating the political mess
Co-host/Contributor
that they end up in in Mexico City with Emperor Maximilian on the throne.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then sort of the stirrings of
Co-host/Contributor
the Mexican republic are sort of like churning out in the ungovernable, big expansive areas, especially along the border.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so they have. Imagine a supply line of ex confederates. Alonzo is like writing a little poem
Co-host/Contributor
about burying the stars and bars in the bedrocks of the Rio Grande, which actually became a hit. He's basically writing like, call me maybe of the time. That's such a dated reference. Sorry.
I'm gonna find this poem.
Host/Interviewer
The burial of Shelby's flag.
Co-host/Contributor
That's it. Joe Shelby, huh?
Host/Interviewer
It sounds horrible already just reading this. I'm sorry, I can't.
Co-host/Contributor
I can't do this.
Host/Interviewer
Continue. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing a ceremonial reading of this.
Co-host/Contributor
It's awful.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I mean, it is awful. And there is like a sort of sing songy poetry style that's hyper popular at this moment. That has a lot to do with Lord Byron.
Co-host/Contributor
Lord Byron, like popped off when he started doing just like non stop rhyming couplets and like big long poems too. And Alenzo Slayback loved all of that stuff.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It is very sing song.
Co-host/Contributor
It's very on the nose, you know, saccharine.
Host/Interviewer
Four of the same rhyme in a row is happening a lot here. We got ride side, divide and tide.
Co-host/Contributor
Beautiful, sir.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Thank you.
Host/Interviewer
Things are often said on this show that like sentences that have never been said before. And I do think Lord Byron popped
Co-host/Contributor
off is he did okay.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
He was right about the Eldren Marbles. They shouldn't have been looting them.
Co-host/Contributor
He was goated, okay, by Lord Byron.
So he goes, they go to Mexico
Host/Interviewer
and they do this weird tourist thing.
Co-host/Contributor
But also.
Host/Interviewer
So part of what I found difficult with researching this guy is like, how much random lore there is. That seems unlikely, right? Like there's some magazine that I don't think is. Well, I don't know. I don't know if I should say this, but I don't know if it's, you know, reputable. This article that I read said that he becomes the Duke of Oaxaca. And I couldn't find that anywhere else interesting. And I was like, that can't be real. I'll Send it to you, Duke of Oaxaca.
Co-host/Contributor
Interesting.
Host/Interviewer
They also said that his. His family was, like, French nobility.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. But they're like. But he's, like, of a noble line. And, like, all this stuff where I'm
Co-host/Contributor
kind of like, that's.
Host/Interviewer
I don't think this is real. I think this person is buying what
Co-host/Contributor
this obvious, like, psychopath fraud guy is selling, essentially.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
You're telling me a sort of crazy poet cavalry officer would invent some mythology
Co-host/Contributor
about himself, like, who's obsessed with chivalry.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Obsessed with chivalry. Like, born in Plum Grove.
Co-host/Contributor
Plum Grove is like, you're in a rural spot even back then.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I mean, so it makes sense that he's adding a little bit of flourish
Co-host/Contributor
to his story in general.
Host/Interviewer
Sure.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
We also have to imagine, as they're caravanning down, the local sort of, like, powers that be in, like, the rural Mexican hinterland are, like, stealing horses and
Co-host/Contributor
guns and stuff off of them, sort of rooking them for a bunch of money.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And they get to Mexico City, and also, Lon is completely sick the entire time.
Co-host/Contributor
So they're carrying him on a stretcher the entire way, which is very funny.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
They get to Mexico City.
Host/Interviewer
Glorious.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Gloriously. At first they were like, maybe we're
Co-host/Contributor
gonna sack Mexico City. And then they got there, like, halfway there, and they're like, we're gonna limp into Mexico City, barely hanging on.
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
They get in. They get put up at a hotel.
Co-host/Contributor
Emperor Maximilian has a bunch of politics between the officers where they're basically like,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
yeah, just hang out, rack up a hotel, bill, whatever, you know, I'll get you a little plot of land way far away that I kind of can't control anyway, that you can, like, go
Co-host/Contributor
and set up a slave colony called the New Virginia Colony.
Host/Interviewer
Unoriginal.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Very unoriginal.
Co-host/Contributor
Uninspired. That's like, we get it, dog. It's. We know, we know.
We understand what you're about.
Okay, yeah, we get it.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But this does end up kind of
Co-host/Contributor
working for a minute.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
They end up spending a lot of time in Mexico City. As Emperor Maximilian is, like, still trying to hold the disparate factions of Mexico
Co-host/Contributor
under, like, the colonialist thumb.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This is kind of a way of, like, well, here you can have a little colony at the edge to, like,
Co-host/Contributor
settle things down out there for me.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And Lon starts writing to his mum
Co-host/Contributor
about how, you know, successful everything is going.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And he's getting a lot of information about new kinds of products that are
Co-host/Contributor
coming out of South America and, like, entering sort of the global trade system, which then becomes Important. When his mother has to bribe him
Devin Thomas O'Shea
back to the United States with the
Co-host/Contributor
equivalent of, like, $500 to be like,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
they're not going to shoot you for.
Co-host/Contributor
It's understandable that you were worried about that. But everybody's getting forgiven if you go and take, like, the ironclad oath. Everything is basically.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This is, I think, like, two or
Co-host/Contributor
three years after the war ends, he's down there for a sizable amount of time.
Claire Aubin
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
I mean, he meets his mom in Cuba at one point because he's like, I'm not coming back to the US you can come down here. Also crazy. Don't love that. That he's like, all right, lady, just come to Cuba. We'll figure it out there. Weird.
Co-host/Contributor
Weird.
Host/Interviewer
And she gets him. I think that's part of the bribery thing, is then she's like, all right, come back. It's gonna be chill.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Come back. Your wife and I think, son, at
Co-host/Contributor
this point, like, you gotta step up and become a father. You can't be hanging out in Mexico this whole time.
Claire Aubin
Sure.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And this is also, you know, he's being bribed back. And also, I think it's clear that the Mexican Republic is about to, like,
Co-host/Contributor
burst forth and, like, dethrone Maximilian. And, yeah, he's gonna get it pretty soon. And I think everybody kind of knew. That's when the. The new Virginia colony collapses. And not long after Lon leaves, I
Host/Interviewer
will add, we are talking about Maximilian, the First of Mexico, not the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian. Different one. Different times, different places.
Co-host/Contributor
Sure.
Just as a side note, if anyone is curious about that, they're like, I
Host/Interviewer
didn't know about his Mexico arc.
Co-host/Contributor
Different. Yeah, A different one.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
That would be interesting if that was like. And then I had a little sojourn
Co-host/Contributor
down into Mexico to be the king,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
as I'm so good at doing.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
So he comes back to the U.S. he starts this political and legal career.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
He's a lawyer because, you know, he studied law before this, before the war. That's what he was doing. If people can remember back through all the twists and turns this conversation has taken them on.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
No, no, no, Straight. We're setting up a beautiful arc towards
Co-host/Contributor
becoming basically Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York. Right.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. A Slaybackian journey is actually what we've taken everyone.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Absolutely.
Host/Interviewer
He also publishes a book of his poems. Is this right?
Co-host/Contributor
Absolutely.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
The Shelby's flag poem becomes, like, really popular.
Co-host/Contributor
Like, it gets printed in newspapers all over.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This is like, the ideology of the
Co-host/Contributor
Lost cause is literally being created by guys like Alonzo who are very upset
Devin Thomas O'Shea
about the loss and are getting their way in every, like, division of the United States.
Co-host/Contributor
Like they're.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I don't know what it required to become a lawyer back then, but it didn't seem like it was too hard
Co-host/Contributor
for him to just step into a super prominent role in St. Louis after coming back from Mexico. His brother is down in New Orleans, who's also become a big finance guy and he's gotten tied in with the
Devin Thomas O'Shea
mystic crew of Comus.
Co-host/Contributor
And in New Orleans, at the same time, there's a lot of clan activity. There's the Democratic clubs, which were not democratic. They were actually very bad. Or like the Knights of the White Camellia.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
All of these sort of like clubs
Co-host/Contributor
and men's clubs are. They're a very effective social technology of the time.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Basically, you're making a union for rich
Co-host/Contributor
people or rich and powerful people and like exerting power on the post reconstruction landscape.
Host/Interviewer
Secret societies are. Unions for rich people is a really good take. That's a really good take.
Co-host/Contributor
I do think about them that way.
Host/Interviewer
If you said actually the Illuminati are just a union.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
They are. They're kind of a union of.
Co-host/Contributor
They're real and they're a union.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
The Rothschilds and Beyonce and the aliens
Co-host/Contributor
that they don't tell us about, they're all sort of in a union called the Illuminati. Yeah,
Host/Interviewer
they have great jackets and oh,
Co-host/Contributor
the swag is unbelievable. Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
So I mean, also part of this is, I think I would be remiss if I don't mention that, like, as you said, they get basically whatever they want. Like these Confederates or former Confederates get off essentially scot free, which is one of the.
Claire Aubin
There are many sins upon which I
Host/Interviewer
think the United States is founded. But I think it's not controversial amongst historians and Americanists particular to say that, like, not making the south actually pay meaningfully and the individuals within the south pay for the Civil War. Like, actually. Actually pay for it. Like, sure, there's Reconstruction. We're like, well, we do all this stuff which then later they claw back in a lot of really terrifying ways.
Co-host/Contributor
Absolutely.
Host/Interviewer
Is like one of the foundational errors of our country of being like, well, they're doing this sort of, let's reach across the aisle and let's have some unity here. And it's sor. Well, unfortunately, that leads to people being able to publish books of Byronic romantic poetry about how glorious it was that they believed human beings should be enslaved. And everyone goes, that's a good poem.
Co-host/Contributor
That's Great. Yeah, we love it.
Host/Interviewer
That's like a really. When you start to grapple with that, a really deeply horrifying and upsetting thing to understand about the United States. And also fuck this guy who's part of it.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah, absolutely. Who's doing his best to spread that ideology and to basically have lost the war and then to still be prosecuting it. Like Shelby and Alonzo Swaback continued to
Co-host/Contributor
call themselves confederates for the rest of their lives.
Host/Interviewer
Whack.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah, very whack.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But, you know, he comes back to St. Louis and becomes a lawyer. But what Alonzo is very good at is actually stirring up a mob of
Co-host/Contributor
like getting a bunch of guys together to go and stand around voting booths on like the day that some.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
A little bit of democracy has happening
Co-host/Contributor
in order to, like, intimidate people or to pack a courtroom full of, you know, half drunk sort of morons to yell at somebody.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And Lon himself is a very loud, always taking the stage, decrying, you know, the. At the time, Missouri had the Drake
Co-host/Contributor
Constitution, which was like written by the abolitionist forces. And like, in the aftermath of the
Devin Thomas O'Shea
war, black schools are being built. The Freedmen's Bureau is. I mean, it's trying to become the country that we want.
Co-host/Contributor
Right. All inclusive and rights based, law of the land.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then there's all these crazy people
Co-host/Contributor
in the hinterlands who are doing what then becomes the first wave of the clan, which is to take the plantation violence and have it re erupt in night raids and to wear a costume that basically gives you the power of the plantation owner.
Claire Aubin
Hi, haters, it's Claire popping in with my regular shout out to tell you about other multitude shows you might want to listen to this week. I want to talk about Spirits, which is the first ever multitude show to invite me to be a guest on it. Spirits is a history and comedy podcast focused on everything folklore, mythology and the occult. Extremely sick, told through the lens of feminism, queerness and modern adulthood. Every week, mythology buffs and childhood best
Host/Interviewer
friends Julia and Amanda get together to
Claire Aubin
learn about a different story from mythology and folklore over drinks. That's everything from the mythological origins of major franchises like Lord of the Rings and Wonder Woman to modern urban legends, to a roundup of werewolf stories from around the world.
Host/Interviewer
Like I said, they had me on the show a couple of years ago to talk about Nazi zombies and it was.
Claire Aubin
Is honestly really, really great. So great, in fact, that I assigned it to my students as extra credit last year. Sorry. If you're one of those students, go do your readings.
Host/Interviewer
Stop listening to Podcasts well, you can listen to my podcast, but you know,
Claire Aubin
do your homework first. You can start listening to spirits with any of the nearly 500 episodes they've released.
Host/Interviewer
There's so much to enjoy, whether you're
Claire Aubin
here for analyses of mental health and mythology or creepy modern ghost stories, you can dive in@spiritspodcast.com or search for spirits in the same app you're using right
Host/Interviewer
now to listen to me. Yappy you.
Claire Aubin
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Host/Interviewer
Speaking of costumes, we will need at some point to talk about what he does with this power when he comes back to St. Louis. Right. That's not a good segue. But you said the word costume and I thought we should probably talk about the group that your book is about.
Co-host/Contributor
Excellent segue, actually. Yes.
Host/Interviewer
So we're, you know, that's a very professional thing I'm doing here. What happens that makes him slash. Why does the Veiled Prophet come into existence? Like, why does he found it? What's happening? Why does he go from I love secret societies to like, it's time for me to make a secret society of my own.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yes, it's time to pop off the. I mean, the first thing, the first thing is that his brother down in New Orleans, him and his brother are both really hooked into the mystic crew of Comus.
Co-host/Contributor
And there is this.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
One of the parades in the post
Co-host/Contributor
war era is Lalla Rook, which is
Devin Thomas O'Shea
a poem by Thomas Moore, who was also a big.
Co-host/Contributor
One of Lord Byron's best friends, who
Devin Thomas O'Shea
wrote this poem and invented this character based on some Islamic folklo based around
Co-host/Contributor
Al Muqana, who is the veiled one.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And he has got a veil on
Co-host/Contributor
because in the Islamic lore, he has had a gnostic sort of experience. He's like glimpsed God and it's like scarred his face. And if you look him in the eye, he could do all crazy things.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so he has to wear a veil. He's the villain of the poem. But at the same time, you have the first wave of the clan that is doing more improvisational costuming than what
Co-host/Contributor
we typically associate with the Ku Klux
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Klan, because all of our view of
Co-host/Contributor
it is like tainted by the second wave that a much more standard uniform, basically.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so in the post war era, there is a fight over what kind
Co-host/Contributor
of economic system is going to.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
There's no more slavery, therefore everyone must have a wage.
Co-host/Contributor
And so then the wage system becomes the territory that we're fighting over. Well, in 1877, it's the great railroad strike, right? Railroad workers are like some of the most.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
They're the equivalent of truck drivers in
Co-host/Contributor
the United States now of how important they are and how they could shut down the system if they all just didn't go to work. Right? And so in 1877, massive railroad strike up and down the lines all through
Devin Thomas O'Shea
New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, going closer and
Co-host/Contributor
closer to the Terminus Point in St. Louis. And this freaked everyone out in St. Louis, including many of the elites, like
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Alonzo, prominent, pretty rich lawyer who, like,
Co-host/Contributor
kind of flees the city during the seven days that the workers basically control the whole city.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This involved a lot of parading.
Co-host/Contributor
It involved a lot of, like a festival sort of atmosphere of the railroaders go on strike, then the Coopers also go, and then the foundry workers and the roustabouts on the levee, who are primarily African American, doing some of the worst labor available, which is just hauling stuff on and off steamboats.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
All of these workers get together, regardless
Co-host/Contributor
of race, and exercise their power. The strike does not succeed, of course, but it does freak everybody out.
Host/Interviewer
And how beautiful that we are recording this on May 1st. First May Day.
Co-host/Contributor
Absolutely.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
We're working on May 1st, huh?
Host/Interviewer
Well, damn. But my job did unionize yesterday, so,
Co-host/Contributor
you know, hey, I'm in a Union as of 12 hours ago.
There we go. Yes, absolutely. As AM I.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
At St. Louis University.
Co-host/Contributor
All power to the people.
Hell yeah, brother.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah, it is. I mean, it does. This is a very forgotten moment, especially in the St. Louis story of itself. Thinking about the general strike is not
Co-host/Contributor
something that is, like, part of the curriculum.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's almost written about in an embarrassed way.
Co-host/Contributor
And it's only recently. Mark Krueger's book about this is very good, but it's about, you know, this was one of the first worker councils,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
the executive committee that basically ran as the de facto government for a couple
Co-host/Contributor
days in St. Louis. So you basically had a communist government suddenly erupt out of nowhere.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And in the aftermath of that, the elites in St. Louis needed to show the people that that cannot happen anymore. And the way to do that in
Co-host/Contributor
this era is to parade and to have a, like, display of force in the streets.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so Alonzo, being the poetic spirit that he is, takes the idea that
Co-host/Contributor
he saw down in New Orleans of a man in a veil who looks like a Ku Kluxer and sort of dodges around the Grant administration's prohibitions on covering your face in public.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Public getting rid of the first wave
Co-host/Contributor
of the clan was a big federal ordeal. They had to go and lock up a bunch of people.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
You weren't allowed to wear face coverings on the highways.
Co-host/Contributor
It was like a big Effort to get rid of this. And so there's a way to weasel around it. If you just make a parade character and say that we're celebrating the Veiled Prophet, who's also the police chief who also broke the strike. And he's standing on a float. Sure, sure. Right as you do.
Host/Interviewer
Uh huh.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And he's standing on a float beside
Co-host/Contributor
a man dressed in an executioner's hood with a big butcher's block and a bloody sort of like, runoff coming off the top of it. And so we're doing a very subtle set of messaging about what's going on here.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. And you're sort of like. And this kooky guy that I'm being is not a threat to anyone.
Co-host/Contributor
Not a threat.
Host/Interviewer
He's a fun.
Co-host/Contributor
Cool.
Host/Interviewer
We're just kind of doing a spooky secret society parade thing. Because a classic behavior of secret societies is to just have parades where everyone sees them.
Co-host/Contributor
You know, it is.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's truly the most paradoxical thing. It's like they're riffing on the New Orleans Mondi Gras thing, which is like, yeah, the Rex Comus Protus. They all are like secret clubs that
Co-host/Contributor
you have to be invited to and masquerading.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But it's like setting off a bunch of fireworks to be like, I have clandestine knowledge about the occult. And you're like, okay, all right, calm down, brother, that's fine.
Host/Interviewer
But people are like, into it though, right? Like, this as an institution exists until like, recently.
Co-host/Contributor
Right.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Claire, if you want to come out to St. Louis in December, we could go to the Veiled Prophet ball, which they have a couple days before Christmas every year.
Co-host/Contributor
Unfortunately, there's going to be a photo of us outside that. That says, do not allow these two into.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah, I think.
Co-host/Contributor
I don't know if I'm invited. I might have to shave the beard off and like, put on a disguise or something.
They like disguises.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
They do. They would appreciate that.
Host/Interviewer
Perhaps I'm going in and Groucho glasses and seeing if they.
Co-host/Contributor
If they'll recognize me a little.
Yeah. Mustang.
Host/Interviewer
Ish.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Like, hello, fellow secret society Scooby Doo style villain outfit.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
What's up, fellow occultists?
Co-host/Contributor
How do you do, fellow kids?
It's a good plan.
Host/Interviewer
So this still exists, like this kooky, weird thing that he starts or helps to start.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
Still exists to this day. And they're like, like, don't look at it too closely. It's, it's fine, guys.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Don't look at it. But you got to know about it
Co-host/Contributor
also, for Some reason.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's this paradoxical sort of thing because there's a tremendous amount of power in
Co-host/Contributor
saying we have secret occult knowledge and don't cross us.
Claire Aubin
Sure.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
There's a weird part of the history
Co-host/Contributor
that I think is really fascinating is in the first few years of the parade where Alonzo is in charge of. Of inventing a tradition. Right. Of, like, this is called, like, an archaic affectation where you say, I'm not
Devin Thomas O'Shea
just making this up. I actually discovered something that's like 40,000
Co-host/Contributor
years old, and now we're just going to, like, bring it forth as opposed
Devin Thomas O'Shea
to making a costume.
Co-host/Contributor
And then a bunch of parade floats. Actually, they bought the parade floats from the mystic crew of Comus and had them shipped up on the Mississippi river because a bunch of the barge barons were in the First Veiled Prophet Society. So you got a discount on your parade equipment.
Well, part of this is like, sort
Host/Interviewer
of like the camp aspect of it is very funny. And also the sort of, like, to demystify secret societies to some degree. All you have to do is explain the economies of them, like, which are so lame.
Co-host/Contributor
Right. Like, you had a buddy who had a parade float that he would sell
Host/Interviewer
to you cheap, and then now that's your parade float. And it's like, that's actually so incredibly uncool.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Uncool. Not sexy or occult at all.
Co-host/Contributor
No. You have to do some sort of magic ritual.
Host/Interviewer
It comes out of a cauldron or something. At minimum, a fire has to be involved, at least.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah, yeah. There's a bunch of interesting stuff about, like, dues payments are, like, a big
Co-host/Contributor
part of secret society problems of, like,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
the organization going into debt and needing
Co-host/Contributor
to, like, gather a bunch of funds.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This is also why this organization evolved and has been able to perpetuate itself. Not necessarily because of that First Veiled Prophet guy. That was actually, like, a little too much for everybody. So in the first few years, they
Co-host/Contributor
started, like, dialing it back and kind of like trying to figure out a better guy.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Or, like, maybe he's friendly and more
Co-host/Contributor
like Santa Claus and less like a
Devin Thomas O'Shea
murderous villain who says in the newspaper that he's coming to town to shoot striking trolley workers who's giving K kkk. They use a KKK stamp to represent
Co-host/Contributor
him in the first iteration. Very cool, guys. Thank you very much.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Except nobody actually knew about that for,
Co-host/Contributor
like, a hundred years. Like, that was a totally. Until newspapers got digitalized, we didn't know that it was the same stamp or nobody had made that connection. Useful to know.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But the real Thing that makes it solid enough to perpetuate is that it
Co-host/Contributor
develops also a ball, a dance. And there's a belle of the ball who is crowned. Of course, it's Susie Slayback is the first belle of the ball. Alonzo's daughter.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then that slowly evolves, especially when
Co-host/Contributor
they get into a financial crisis towards the end of the 1880s. It becomes a debutante ritual. And then you invent the queen of love and beauty, which our favorite actress from the office was crowned in 1999. And it kind of has like really done some serious damage to her career or at least the public perception of it.
Claire Aubin
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
Because they were like, oh, you were the belle of the ball at this racist ass society.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
Secret society thing in St. Louis that was literally invented in the first place to break the backs of striking workers.
Co-host/Contributor
Mm, sick.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Cool.
Co-host/Contributor
Yes.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
An interesting thing on the resume.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah, yeah. Kimmy Schmidt is less fun and quirky now, unfortunately.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah. I think that that is part of why that is such an effective.
Co-host/Contributor
This is the primary way that everyone comes to the veiled prophet stuff is through that scandal and that like that she has a sort of wholesome Persona
Devin Thomas O'Shea
and I think is a talented and interesting actress.
Co-host/Contributor
Sure.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
There's too much hate towards the 19
Co-host/Contributor
year old girls that get crowned queen.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
The hate needs to be trained on their parents and the people that keep perpetuating this thing.
Co-host/Contributor
Totally.
You know, her family's in charge of the Commerce bank fortune and so like you can criticize them and like that's a worthy target.
Host/Interviewer
Totally.
Co-host/Contributor
But it's just like easy to be like, oh yeah, I wrote a book about the thing that Ellie Kemper got in trouble about.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah, of course. To be like, well, that's how they're gonna first encounter this. But actually maybe let that just be like the initial first lay here and then be like, yeah, it's actually way worse than you're imagining. And it's. Her involvement in any of it is not important at all. Actually.
Co-host/Contributor
It's the other stuff that matters here.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's that the guy who founded it
Co-host/Contributor
is an ex confederate, like psycho who is drunk on power and like did
Devin Thomas O'Shea
it in order to one of the parades way back at the beginning.
Co-host/Contributor
The panorama of progress is basically a ranking of the races.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so he gets in a bunch of trouble for being racist towards my
Co-host/Contributor
people, the Irish, or I'm American, but whatever,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
he offends the Irish.
Co-host/Contributor
At a time when the Irish vote is starting to exercise some political power in the city.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
He's sort of like stepping on toes
Co-host/Contributor
on his way up the ladder more
Devin Thomas O'Shea
and more, but has successfully basically planted a clan character as the mascot of St. Louis.
Co-host/Contributor
It's like the veiled prophet celebration is
Devin Thomas O'Shea
meant to draw people into the city to spend some money. Right.
Co-host/Contributor
Of like, it's attached to the agricultural and mechanical fare. So farmers come in, you sell all the turnips that you've been producing for the entire year, and then you got a big wad of cash and that's like. That circulates capital in a really effective way. Way. And the Veiled Prophet basically says there's no workers and there's no African Americans who are going to give you any trouble when you come and visit here. It's a explicitly racist telegraphing of that, which sucks.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. Using that as sort of insurance for people to say, like, don't worry about that. It's not going to be an issue because we have this freaky guy who's the. The mascot of our city who just proves even is telegraphing that in this, like you say, in this sort of like, implicit way where people are like, okay, it's fin. Fine.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
This place is basically run by a clan adjacent group. Whether they are or not. That's the way that it's going to be interpreted by people outside of St. Louis.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This was such an effective thing that Kansas City tried to do the same
Co-host/Contributor
thing around the same time, but they invented King Kiki.
So drag name.
They're all drag names.
They're all drag names.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It's also very interesting because at this time it would be improper for a woman to be on a float.
Claire Aubin
Sure.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so if there's ever like a goddess like Demeter who had to be
Co-host/Contributor
represented in the veiled prophet parade, that
Devin Thomas O'Shea
would have to be a guy dressed as a woman. The, like, most conservative wholesaler in the
Co-host/Contributor
city, basically dressed as a Greek goddess.
Host/Interviewer
Once again, it's all gender on this show.
Co-host/Contributor
It is. It all comes back. Yeah, it's tr. Yeah. There's so much gender stuff in, like, the debutante ball stuff, man. It goes on for forever.
Host/Interviewer
Even the, like, the veiled orientalist aspect of all of this stuff. You got this sexy guy kind of hidden thing where this episode could be so long. We do need to talk about one thing because I want to make sure that we have time for this.
Co-host/Contributor
Sure.
Host/Interviewer
His death is crazy.
Co-host/Contributor
It's cuckoo.
The way that he dies is cuckoo.
Yes.
Host/Interviewer
And it starts.
Co-host/Contributor
Starts with an argument about a newspaper. With a newspaper.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah, exactly. This is apropos because you're talking about Mark twain and like St. Louis and the west is still in the public perception. This is in 1882. And St. Louis and the west are like, still the crazy sort of like, anything can happen out there. There's violence and sexual danger and like.
Co-host/Contributor
Like, booze and horses and cowboy stuff is still going on on the frontier.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And so Alonzo is exercising his political power.
Co-host/Contributor
He is trying to get one of
Devin Thomas O'Shea
his buddies elected to the state congress. And the Joseph Pulitzer run. St. Louis Post Dispatch gives some light criticism to the candidate. I think. I can't remember what he called it.
Co-host/Contributor
Them.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It was like a bump on a
Co-host/Contributor
log or something like that.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
There was, like, a not very offensive sort of exchange of words in the paper. And Alonzo, who had a open, communicative
Co-host/Contributor
relationship with the editor, the managing editor,
Devin Thomas O'Shea
decides to go to the Post Dispatch office to have a word about this incident. And the story that comes out afterwards is that like. Like, Alonzo simply showed up and wanted
Co-host/Contributor
to talk to the managing editor, and
Devin Thomas O'Shea
then the managing editor just shot him
Co-host/Contributor
right in the gut. And it's like,
Host/Interviewer
what?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
What? Yeah, they were like. It was totally like, we just. We had no idea what was going on.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then it turns out later, as they. They have to have a trial, they
Co-host/Contributor
put the managing editor on trial and Joseph Polk Pulitzer. This is like a big scandal.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And, like, it adds to the Mark Twain ethos of just, like, the stuff that's going on out there. It's only so many years removed from duels becoming illegal. There's a island in the Mississippi river
Co-host/Contributor
called Bloody island where a bunch of rich guys would go and shoot each
Devin Thomas O'Shea
other in order to settle disputes. Abraham Lincoln famously almost got into a sword fight out there with a guy, but then he demonstrated how. How far his reach was because he's
Co-host/Contributor
a giant tall guy. He, like, cut the branch of a tree.
Host/Interviewer
Lincoln.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah, Lincoln.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
He, like, cut the. The branch of a tree and it fell. And the guy was like, all right, never mind.
Co-host/Contributor
I don't want to sword fight you.
At first, I thought you were talking about the other guy. And I was like, there was a guy who was tall enough that he intimidated. Famously tall Abraham Lincoln. I'm so sad that basketball wasn't happening.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah. There was a Paul Bunyan figure that
Co-host/Contributor
sort of intimidated Little Lincoln, as he was known. Yeah, His.
His Trump nickname.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Absolutely.
Co-host/Contributor
Little Abraham Lincoln.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Little Abraham Lincoln.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Short stuff.
Co-host/Contributor
But there's.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. So, like, duels are still happening or were recently, even despite being illegal.
Co-host/Contributor
Like, to be like, well, the way
Host/Interviewer
we solve this is by shooting or stabbing each other in A mutually agreed upon way is like, not that wild.
Co-host/Contributor
Like of a.
Host/Interviewer
Of a proposition.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah. And the like. I think it's important that, like, Alonzo did a lot of violence during the Civil War. He killed a lot of people. He famously bludgeoned a union officer in order to escape jail. When he was briefly captured, I saw
Host/Interviewer
he attacked him with a bucket.
Co-host/Contributor
With a bucket?
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Imagine getting crowned with a bucket and
Co-host/Contributor
then like, a guy takes off down the river.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Crazy.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
So this is a person who is very, very willing to engage in, like, you know, serious violence. And he's being like, nah, I just want to have a little chat and say that you should apologize.
Co-host/Contributor
I'm a rich guy who just wants to chat.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And I also am packing. I got that thing on me.
Host/Interviewer
And I'm famous for having little regard
Co-host/Contributor
for my own life.
Yes. Right.
Aha.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And I will not be disgraced in the newspaper.
Co-host/Contributor
This rag, the Post Dispatch.
Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Which this is what came out is like, this was barely even a duel. Because what happened was Alonzo and his other lawyer friend showed up. Both of them had a Glock on him. And they go into the office. The managing editor has a gun ready
Co-host/Contributor
to go, too, because he's like, alonzo
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Slaback's gonna come in here, as he has done before, and he's gonna bitch
Co-host/Contributor
at me and probably threaten to kill me. And I just gotta have it out.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then, as we found out in the trial, what happened was Alonzo showed up, shows up. He's about to get for his gun. He probably pointed it or, like, had it out, but it jammed because he never cleaned it.
Co-host/Contributor
And then the managing editor got got. So that's it.
And that's the story of Alonzo Slave's life.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And then everybody had a big funeral for him where they just were like,
Co-host/Contributor
this guy was amazing. We loved him so much.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And we're so sad that these corrupt
Co-host/Contributor
journalists are murdering our, like, beloved founding fathers of St. Louis civic life.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
The managing editor had to leave.
Co-host/Contributor
Joseph Pulitzer had to be like, I'm really sorry that that happened to that guy, but he was trying to kill one of my employees. It was self defense. Very cool and normal.
Host/Interviewer
Does it feel good to be someone who, you know, one of the main ways you're known in the world is as a journalist to be like. Like, I'm taking my revenge.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah.
Co-host/Contributor
And you got shot twice.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah. It is.
Co-host/Contributor
Resurrected you to kill you, actually.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I mean, it is like, such a. Interesting because there is this sense of just like. Especially for entitled, hyper, wealthy people with all of the power. It's like, what do they spend their days doing? They're on Twitter, like, complaining about. Journalists are, like, making plans to take
Co-host/Contributor
over the Washington Post and liquidate it.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Like, even when you have all of
Co-host/Contributor
that power, even when you're at the very top of the pyramid, the thing
Devin Thomas O'Shea
that you hate the most is when
Co-host/Contributor
somebody is, like, basically evaluating how you're acting in society and being a little critical of it.
Host/Interviewer
Sure.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
And for that, you are willing to
Co-host/Contributor
duel if you're somebody like Alonzo and
Host/Interviewer
badly in his case.
Co-host/Contributor
And badly. Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Clean your gun.
Co-host/Contributor
Come on.
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
At minimum.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
At minimum, they didn't teach you anything
Co-host/Contributor
in the Confederate Army.
Yeah, I guess not.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
That also speaks to his continued hubris
Co-host/Contributor
of just like, well, of course I'll just be able to, like, put a bullet in this managing editor. And then I don't know what the plan was after that either. If he was going to say that he was trying to shoot first.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
This all comes back to Star wars
Co-host/Contributor
anyway, you know, what a full circle moment, actually. Blonde Sleep playback. Star wars character George Lucas.
Host/Interviewer
If you're a listener, he's not a listener.
Co-host/Contributor
If you're a listener, though, if you're
Devin Thomas O'Shea
a listener, for you. Yeah.
Co-host/Contributor
Check it out, George.
If someone can get this to George Lucas.
Yes.
You will get a year of free access to our Patreon, which is not worth very many dollars.
Absolutely. That's a beautiful gift of knowledge and entertainment. Yeah.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
You got Lon Slayback, King Kiki.
Co-host/Contributor
You know, there's other characters in there.
Host/Interviewer
Susie Slayback is also a movie character kind of name, so.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
Her in there, too. Why not?
Co-host/Contributor
Absolutely.
Host/Interviewer
I think this is a great place to stop there. As I said, there are so many other things we could have talked about and continue to talk about on this front, but it's only so long and eventually people will stop listening, and I can't do this.
Co-host/Contributor
How dare they? We've got more to say, though.
Host/Interviewer
And if you want to know more. And I'm not just like, like, you know, razzing you up here, Veiled Prophet, your book is very, very good and talks about, like, so much more. He's just, like, the precursor to a lot of these things. The book opens with talking about him and his whole deal, but, like, what he founds and what it grows into and how it gets used and how it interacts with St. Louis and. And St. Louis history and all this stuff is, like, I think, so engrossing and so interesting. And it is just funny that this, like the. From Jump it's crazy. Like, the guy who comes up with it is bananas. And then it just continues on, you know, a pace from there. So thank you for this.
Co-host/Contributor
That's very high praise. Thank you very much.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
That it is so entertaining and crazy
Co-host/Contributor
is like, it feels like a jackpot because, like you say, like, this is not the most powerful version of the Veiled Prophet. Society is not at the beginning.
Host/Interviewer
No.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
It becomes like, hooked into the CIA
Co-host/Contributor
and involved in the assassination of Martin Luther King. And there's other guys like Tom Dooley and Clark Clifford. And like, it's just.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Then you get all the way caught
Co-host/Contributor
up to the Michael Brown protests. And the McCloskeys.
Host/Interviewer
Yes.
Co-host/Contributor
Who I think are the spiritual inheritors
Devin Thomas O'Shea
of the Alonzo ethos.
Co-host/Contributor
Gun wielding rich people.
Host/Interviewer
I mean, in that you have a photo of them in the book.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
Where I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I guess this does. You know, if nothing else, you really have proved, both in the book and then in this episode, how cursed of
Co-host/Contributor
a place St. Louis is covered in blood. It really is. Like, not even metaphorically. Like, it's just every single inch of
Host/Interviewer
it has had something horrifying happen, essentially.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah. It is haunted. It is a haunted city from the past that St. Louis refuses to deal with in any structural way, partly because
Co-host/Contributor
of the way the United States politics works in general.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
But it also has encoded into it,
Co-host/Contributor
and I am a stalwarts believer in
Devin Thomas O'Shea
this, that there is the socialist 48ers who helped win the Civil War. That is also encoded here in the emancipatory worker movements in the 1930s and
Co-host/Contributor
then the civil rights protesters against the Veiled Prophet. And that continues into the Black Lives Matter being birthed in Ferguson. It's like there's also this strong counter current to all of this horribly evil stuff. I'm always a little worried that, like, the book gives a overall negative impression of St. Louis. And I would like to assure the listeners that we have very beautiful punishment
Devin Thomas O'Shea
parks, a lot of very interesting architecture. The food scene punches way above what you would expect. And there's so many different kinds of
Co-host/Contributor
people who live in San. It's like a beautiful place to visit. Come see the arch. Come on. It would be cool.
They've got an arch.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
We got an arch. You got an arch, Nashville?
Co-host/Contributor
No.
Well.
Host/Interviewer
And why would you only need one?
Co-host/Contributor
You only need one, really?
Devin Thomas O'Shea
We got there first and you got it.
Co-host/Contributor
Yeah.
Host/Interviewer
I mean, it is also worth saying that we, like a city, can be both horrifyingly haunted and cursed and covered in blood. And all of these things. And also, as you are rightly pointing out, offering all of these glimpses of like optimistic futures. Like there are all of these things where you say, okay, well this is the birthplace of these other civil rights struggles, or all of these things happen and they coalesce in a place that you wouldn't necessarily expect but is actually very central. It's like this sort of like with Minnesota, right, where you're like, actually a bunch of stuff is happening in Minnesota and it's a very interesting space for that.
Co-host/Contributor
Like.
Host/Interviewer
Like that can offer some optimistic futurity. Whether that's real or not. That's. Maybe that's just my. Maybe that's just my imagination.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
No, not at all. I think that's a brilliant thing to point out because it is in these lesser understood areas of the country where the contradictions heighten in a more interesting way and become more explicit than they
Co-host/Contributor
can in like the citadels of capital in like LA and New York. It's like, like.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
No, it's actually in this sort of understudied areas where St. Louis and places like Baltimore and Minnesota and all of these places mint symbols of the country
Co-host/Contributor
because they're like, I think where the fractures of capital happen, they happen at the fringes first and then it sort of spreads to the rest of the system. And it's weird how it works that way. Or there is, I think, a lot to gain from studying small. You know, I always say that St.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Louis is too big not to pay
Co-host/Contributor
attention to and too small to care about. So it's like caught right in the middle there.
Host/Interviewer
That's a good line.
Co-host/Contributor
Thank you.
Host/Interviewer
Yeah, everybody start paying attention to the interior, please.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Yeah.
Co-host/Contributor
Flyover Country.
Thank you so, so much for coming
Host/Interviewer
on to this show.
Claire Aubin
Where can people find you online if they would like to do that or
Host/Interviewer
if you would like them to do that?
Co-host/Contributor
Absolutely.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
I'm basically on everything at devont o' Shea and you can pick up your copy of the Veiled Prophet from any of the Haymarket vendors that they have listed on their site. And leviathan Bookstore in St. Louis also, you can pre order through their site
Co-host/Contributor
or order from them. A beautiful local business.
Host/Interviewer
You know what you can also do, if you want to do a double, triple, etc whammy for everybody, you can use the TGS bookshop.org our storefront thing on there and route it through Leviathan.
Co-host/Contributor
Oh, beautiful.
Host/Interviewer
Because you can. With bookshop.org you can like select the bookshop you're supporting or if you want to buy from a specific bookshop. You can also do that so that your money goes more directly to those people. And we will link as always, as we do with everyone who comes on the show. We'll link all of this here for people to get to very easily.
Co-host/Contributor
Amazing.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Amazing.
Co-host/Contributor
That is such a good idea.
So there you go.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Damn.
Host/Interviewer
Oh hey.
Co-host/Contributor
It's like you're a professional at this.
It's crazy, you know, Some might say, not me.
Devin Thomas O'Shea
Some might say you're a professional. You got it.
Co-host/Contributor
And that's a great place to end.
Claire Aubin
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of this Guy Sucked. A member of the Multitude Podcast Collective. This episode was Hosted by me, Dr. Claire Aubin, featuring special guest Devin Thomas O', Shea, and edited by Mothman fan Julia Sheffini. All of our theme music was written and produced by California King Marshall Dean Williams. If you'd like to support the show and get access to all episodes, including two extra episodes per month, and access to our full archive of episodes, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or to our patreon@patreon.com this guy sucked. You can also support TGS by giving us a 5 star rating or a review. Wherever you're listening to the show or just by telling a friend or two
Host/Interviewer
or three, some guy at a bar, I don't know.
Claire Aubin
It's up to you to check the show out.
Host/Interviewer
That would rock.
Claire Aubin
See you next week.
Date: May 28, 2026
Host: Dr. Claire Aubin
Guest: Devin Thomas O’Shea, journalist, historian, and author of Veiled Secret Societies, White Supremacy, and the Struggle for St. Louis
This episode takes a deep dive into the life and legacy of Alonzo Slayback, a relatively obscure but deeply influential 19th-century figure in Missouri’s history. Through an expansive and irreverent conversation, host Claire Aubin and guest Devin Thomas O’Shea peel back the layers of myth, privilege, and violence surrounding Slayback—Confederate cavalry officer, poet, co-founder of the notorious Veiled Prophet Society, and all-around “guy who sucked.” The episode weaves together history, regional politics, secret societies, and the afterlife of white supremacist traditions in St. Louis.
| Time | Topic | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:00 | Secret societies & obsession with costumes | | 09:49 | Who is Alonzo Slayback? His origins | | 11:12 | Missouri’s political climate; Civil War context | | 13:36 | Slayback’s chivalry & pro-slavery activism | | 20:21 | Cavalry life: drama, disease, and violence | | 27:13 | Masculinity and cults: Knights of the Golden Circle vs. abolitionists | | 34:38 | Confederate exile in Mexico & mythmaking | | 43:10 | Return to St. Louis: postwar power politics | | 45:00 | Secret societies as “unions for the rich” | | 52:30 | Birth of the Veiled Prophet Society | | 54:19 | 1877 Railway Strike & elite backlash | | 62:54 | Evolution of the Veiled Prophet Ball, debutante rituals | | 68:21 | Slayback’s violent death; dueling culture | | 78:00 | St. Louis: dual legacy and modern echoes | | 81:00 | O’Shea’s closing thoughts on regional history |
The episode skillfully blends historical rigor with bantering critique, showing how obscure figures like Alonzo Slayback shaped American racial politics and elite power structures—legacies that remain visible today. Devin Thomas O’Shea’s book is lauded as an essential resource for understanding St. Louis’ haunted legacy and the performative power of secret societies.
[Summary by Podcast GPT | Original language and irreverent tone maintained throughout.]