Cara (2:48)

Let's begin with the naming of parts, which our regular audience knows is maybe our favorite thing to do. We Must bring this up. Vanessa's taking a sip of something and almost just spit it out. We must talk about the importance of naming your anatomical parts. Oh, I don't know, six times a day, seven times a day. And that's just.

Vanessa (3:10)

That's just in our professional context, let alone with our own families and friends.

Cara (3:17)

Right. We are obsessed with this. We have shared all the reasons we think it's important. We would love to hear the Dr. Krupa playforth spin on why. If you're not buying, sell, please sell to the audience why. Why it's so important to name body parts with their correct anatomical terms.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (3:40)

I'm going to talk about it a little bit. Also from the background of being South Asian and coming from a culture where, like, we didn't really talk about any of this stuff, I think my parents still have trouble naming anatomical body parts. And that's kind of nutty at this point. But I did not grow up with this. And what I've found in practice is many parents are in the same boat and did not grow up learning that there's no shame attached to any of these body parts. And that is the message we want to teach our kids. I have three kids, 10, 7 and 4. And over the years, I have come to realize that teaching them this information helps them not associate shame with their bodies because they shouldn't, but also helps them feel more comfortable coming to me and asking me questions. And that's what you want because you're setting the foundation when they're little for the bigger questions that are going to come when they're older.

Vanessa (4:37)

And can you talk about what? Because right in line with us, thank God our answers align because otherwise we might have to just end the recording. No, I'm just kidding. And we're going to get into sort of our own personal histories and the cultural overlay of kind of what's acceptable and what's not. But before we. We go deep into this, can you talk about what the research tells us, what your training has told you about even more? The safety of kids when they know these. These terms?

Dr. Krupa Playforth (5:11)

I think parents are shocked to hear that the data shows that if we teach kids to name body parts by their actual anatomical terms, it is protective against things like being abused. It helps the kids have language to come to you and talk to you in you, in the. God forbid if something happened, but also to ask questions. And particularly when you start talking about consent and privacy, it sets the foundation for them to realize if something is not right.

Cara (5:42)

Yeah, that's right. And the other piece is just clear communication.

Vanessa (5:47)

Right.

Cara (5:47)

Do you want to talk a little bit about sort of how confusing it can get? Like, in your practice, do you have any examples of when people don't use the real words?

Dr. Krupa Playforth (5:58)

I have heard an array of words. Especially, you know, in the office when I do a checkup, I talk to them before I examine the private parts. Right. And I always kind of frame it in the. I'm a doctor, you're safe. Grown up is here. This is why we check. But I have heard parents say, oh, she just needs to check your cupcake.

Vanessa (6:20)

Or, you know, that's a new one.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (6:24)

There's so many different words. PP is a common one. Bottom for like, just the general, rather than actually defining, like, what's different about your bottom versus your vulva, for example. I've heard an array of different terms. And it provides a good opportunity then to also model for the parents and to talk to them about why this is important and why we talk about it this way.

Cara (6:44)

Vanessa has this great line when we're. When we're traveling and we're on stage, she'll say, if you're still talking about pocketbooks and swords, it's time to level up.

Vanessa (6:58)

And you can hear all the, like, embarrass titters in the audience. Like, people are clearly still and no judgment. Like, I totally get it.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (7:08)

We grew up.

Vanessa (7:09)

That's. I mean, right? That's how everyone else grew up. I actually grew up in a household where there was, like, conversations immediately about penises and vaginas and like. But I, My. My growing up was like a total anomaly, particularly in, like the 70s, and it's suburban 1970s and 80s. But it's funny, I actually just found a video of. And everyone will laugh because, like, we're. I'm scared to even have this video on my, like, phone or whatever of my then two and a half year old son dancing. And he's like shaking his tushy and he's like singing a song about shaking his tushy. He'd, like, made up some song. And then I was saying I was retelling to my husband who was taking the video, a story about how my son was like. I said, did you tell dad you were talking about, like, that you wanted a different penis? And it was a story about how he didn't like the size of his penis and he wanted a bigger penis because his penis was too small. He was two and a half. And we, like, had like a five minute conversation about, like, well, your penis will grow as your Body grows and everybody's penis is different sizes and it's, you know, there's no one right size of a penis. And I was like, dying because I was like, oh, my God, you guys were recording an episode this week with a pediatrician about talking about anatomically. Craig. I was like, I was like, so on board with all of it.

Cara (8:38)

Vanessa. I feel like there needs to be a clip of just that series of sentences and like a penis counterclock there. Like at least seven.

Vanessa (8:47)

And it's. Of course he doesn't remember it, but it was not shaming. It was like having an open conversation. It was using the anatomically. I mean, he was calling his. He called not a tushy, but a toosie. He couldn't say tushy. But I tell all that to say, like, there are a million moments in our lives where there's opportunities to kind of normalize and use terminology. And my poor English husband on the other end of the camera did not grow up with using those terms. And I was modeling for him as someone who did grow up using that language. I mean, his family used the word mushy for a vagina, which. Figure that one out.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (9:29)

I haven't heard that one before.

Vanessa (9:30)

Or this is a good one. In bees, you're in betweens. You're in bees. In between your legs. And that was the culture he grew up in. And then, poor man, he married me. And I'm like, vulva, vagina, penis, testicles, right? It's like just like shouting it from the rooftop. So we all have this narrative that we're coming through with. I want to go to the term you use in the book you use just now. We use in our K through three school based curriculum. But I'm. I'm sort of grappling with it. And it's the term private parts. And I don't know why I feel funny because we're like anatomical parts. Anatomical parts, animatronic. And then we're like private parts. And it feels euphemistic. Yeah, Carl.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (10:15)

Yeah.

Cara (10:15)

I want to give Krupa a little framing for this because maybe you can help us out. So we have this curriculum for kindergarten through third grade. It's school based curriculum. There's a parent facing piece where parents can actually see what their kids are learning in school or not learning in school and should be learning in school. On our hub, but school facing, there's a solid curriculum, and the curriculum is based on state standards. 50 state standards across the U.S. 50 different state standards across the U.S. so every state has a different sense of what is important to teach, necessary to teach, not okay to teach. And many, many states very specifically call out the importance of naming anatomical body parts starting as young as kindergarten or first grade. However, as we built the curriculum, we found ourselves threading this needle, going okay, even in the states where they're saying it's required. And we are big believers in this teaching. How do we get people over the finish line? How do we communicate with schools and with parents that this is important when we're also. We're kind of like the three of us are torchbearers on this, and we're all trying to convince the world that this is important. And so I'm sort of curious how you did it, because in your book, I don't want to spoiler alert, but I'm going to spoiler alert. The book is awesome. And it starts with very basic anatomical labeling. The body parts that are not going to stress anyone out. Hands and eyes and, you know, it's like basic. And then it goes to, quote, private parts and they're named and it feels like a leap. And you're bringing your reader with you. You're like, I've got you. These are just body parts. So, like, help us out. How do you bridge that gap? When do you use private parts? When do you use specific anatomical terms? Give us sort of your personal philosophy. We'll be right back. But first, a word from our sponsors. I have had photo books on the top of my to do list for years, literally. And it bums me out that I cannot seem to find the time to do this because there is literally nothing I enjoy more than looking back at old photos of my kids. So it's why I'm thrilled to have discovered Journeyprint. Journeyprint is easy to use. It takes seconds to auto arrange photos into a beautiful book, and it'll even add location maps and dates. Plus, Journeyprint uses sustainably sourced paper. And for every order placed, they plant a tree. The photo book has moved from a slightly dreaded task that will take so much time to quick and easy. Now, the thing that's going to eat up my time is flipping through all those incredible memories. If you're looking to have a memento of your family's amazing moments, or maybe some other awkward ones, give Journey Print a try. Go to journeyapp.com podcast awkward and use the code awkward to get 30% off your next purchase. That's journey spelled J O U R n I n app.com podcast Awkward and use the code Awkward. I've always been about quality over quantity, especially in my closet. If it's not well made and versatile, it's just not worth it to me. That's why I love Quince. Quince uses premium fabrics like 100% European and linen, 100% silk and organic cotton poplin. They're all perfect for the changing seasons, but they're also built to hold up. And Quince works directly with safe ethical factories, cutting out the middlemen so you're not paying brand markup or fancy retail stores just for quality clothing. I just got the Italian leather dual compartment toiletry bag in cognac and I cannot wait to use it as I hit the road for my spring speaking travels right now. Go to quince.com awkward for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Quincy Awkward for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com awkward this is your fix.

Vanessa (14:48)

I am your host, Stassi Schroeder. Welcome to Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three?

Dr. Krupa Playforth (14:56)

Steven because he's so evil, I do think he is misunderstood.

Cara (15:00)

You see everyone face consequences.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (15:02)

It's intoxicating.

Vanessa (15:03)

The writers just know how to trick.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (15:06)

Yeah, there's always a twist in this show.

Vanessa (15:07)

Tell Me Lies the official podcast January 6th and stream the new season of Tell Me Lies January 13th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (15:17)

One of the things that was really hard about the book was trying to find a way to talk about this stuff collectively rather than like naming every part every time. You're referring to, you know, this collection because there's a concept associated with the private parts, right? And that concept of there are parts of your body that are out in the open. There are parts of your body that are covered up. You need kind of a collective word. So that was. And private parts is just a well known way to frame that. So that was part of why I did it that way. But I really had a lot of trouble because part of consent is also teaching your kid nobody has to hug you or you don't have to hug anybody else. Right. And all of that is still part of consent, even if it's not necessarily related to those parts of your body. And so taking them from okay, we're going to talk about the normal body parts that we all talk about all the time. And then we're going to talk about in the same way, some of the parts that we don't always talk about, but we really should be. And then moving to the concept of privacy, then consent, that's sort of how. How we did it, how I framed it. But it was really hard to find the right language for me as well. Part of the way I did it also was I was thinking about, okay, part of what we want to do is open the door to this conversation. And if we are in a culture where parents are not comfortable with that anyway, then we need to start with words that they're comfortable with and terms that they're comfortable with, and then take them on that journey and prove to them that this can be done in a way that's still childlike and delicate and fun and matter of fact. And so just to get them to kind of approach the door before even going through the door, this was the way that I decided to do it.

Vanessa (17:01)

Right. It's like gateway terminology. And it's so affirming to hear that you grappled with it in the. The same way that we did. I mean, we must have spent Cara. Half an hour talking through this very question as we were building the curriculum. And the other thing we grappled with minimized timestamp ever.

Cara (17:20)

Like, it was probably like.

Vanessa (17:22)

It was probably like three hours. So the other thing that I want to. In. In line with that same issue is the. And we use this also in our curriculum, which is, how do you group them? Right. How do you describe or define them? And we talk about things covered by a bathing suit. Right. Which you do in the book as. But then we're like, okay, but most boys wear bathing suits where their bottoms and their nipples are exposed. And yet it's not appropriate for someone to touch a little boy's nipples in the same way it's not appropriate for them to touch a little girl's nipples or to. And so we were like, ugh, that's not great either. But it's kind of the best version. And then we spent another hour figuring out what imagery with bathing suits. And I was. I was looking closely at the imagery you use, because we're like, do we use put a little girl in bikini? Because, like, is their belly okay to touch? Like, what happens if someone's tickling their belly? Like, people might think we're insane. I don't know. But, like, when we think about consent and we think about language, and I want. I want to move into what some misconceptions are that parents and caregivers might have those of us who work in the space, we think about it all the time. We think about the nuance and the modeling and the implications of even the tiniest word choice, because millions of children's health and safety come down to these choices, to this teaching, to this modeling. And so you might think we sound absolutely bananas by all three of our obsessive grappling with these words.

Cara (19:01)

And.

Vanessa (19:02)

But it is literally about kids, like, lifelong health and safety. So, Krupa, let's talk about. What do you come up against? What are the misconceptions you hear from parents you learned about in your training in terms of like, oh, we shouldn't be teaching this, or this isn't appropriate or important to be teaching kids?

Dr. Krupa Playforth (19:23)

Before I say that, before I answer that question, I want to say that I grappled with the chest and the breasts too, for exactly the same reason, because it's not covered by a bathing suit, but sometimes it is. And also, but we don't want to, like, necessarily sexualize chest because, like, we do use it for feeding.

Vanessa (19:38)

It was really hard to find all of it. And you use breasts not specific to a male or female. And which is really important, as those of listeners know that 50% of boys can have some amount of breast development during puberty. And so when we gender it, we. We shame them or we make it, like, as if they're the only ones who have that. So, trust me, I noticed every choice that you made in the book and so, so appreciated it because every word matters, every choice matters.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (20:13)

It was also tricky to figure out. Okay, well, you know, yes, there's like, an association between, like, girls and vulvas, but, like, that's not exactly the correct association. And even finding those words, we went back and forth, the editor and I, a lot. But some of the misconceptions, to answer your question that I come up with, I hear a lot of embarrassment from people, parents, you know, they're like, oh, well, if I teach my kid the term penis and they're out in public and they say it, then that embarrasses me. And part of what I do in the office is actually to try to remove the shame from that. Yes. You know, my, my, my sons talk about their penises all the time in all the places, and we just talk about it as if they're talking about their ears because it is just a body part. But that's one misconception I see a lot. And it propagates shame when you start thinking about it that way. But then also there is A fear that you are going to have your child fixate on those body parts if you talk about them, which I don't think that that is born out of data. It's not a thing. And, you know, kids fixate on different body parts all the time. And it's okay like, that they're curious, and we want to. We want them to embrace that curiosity. We want them to come to us and ask questions, and they're going to

Vanessa (21:29)

fixate on them whether you talk about them or not. I mean, anyone who's looked at a toddler or kindergartner, I mean, their hands are in the. Their pants, up their shirts, in their nose. I mean, it's like they're exploring themselves. That's developmentally appropriate. And kids are doing that whether someone's talking to them about their body parts or not.

Cara (21:47)

Okay. But I'm gonna be the voice of the parent.

Vanessa (21:51)

I'm, like, dying to know where this is going.

Cara (21:53)

Okay, Cara has been taken over.

Vanessa (21:57)

Are you role play? Are we role playing now? Is that what's happening here?

Dr. Krupa Playforth (22:00)

No, no.

Cara (22:00)

I'm having, like, a civil moment where I've been taken over by a new personality. And the personality I've been taken over by is the parent who is trying to get there. They're trying to get comfortable with this, and they're listening to this, and they're like, okay, I'm going to steal myself. And I've got it, and I've got it. And then they get the call. They practice it. They start leaning in and they get the call. Your kid taught my kid this word on the bus. Your child, the teacher calls. You know, it's really great that, you know, little Jimmy knows his body parts, but little Jimmy is educating everyone in the class about his body parts. Like, help parents there, because the world is not where we are. The world has not given up sort of this shame and stigma. Vanessa, you want the.

Vanessa (22:52)

Do you want Krupa to offer the ideal answer or the answer that is as sensitive to the person calling you on the other line?

Cara (23:00)

I'm a mother in Krupa's practice. Calling her, panicked. Help me out. The teacher just called me, and Jimmy has taught everyone about penises and testicles. And this is, quote, a problem.

Vanessa (23:14)

So Krupa, you know what I'm gonna say? What? You can't say. I'm gonna say what. I mean, what you wouldn't say to your. The mom in your practice. But what I would say is, good, great. Like, I'm so glad someone's teaching your kid the names of penises and test. But that's not what Krupa will say to the mom in her practice. So I will let her do the.

Cara (23:36)

She's going to do a version of that.

Vanessa (23:38)

The more elegant.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (23:40)

She's going to do a version of that, though, because you know what I love about that and you know, I'm going to start from a point of like reassuring the mom that she did nothing wrong.

Cara (23:50)

Correct.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (23:51)

I mean, we can talk about the evidence and I think parents enjoy hearing that information, but also just reassurance that you know what you're doing is protecting your kid and you're making choices intentionally. And that is good. With that said, you are also in a community that isn't where you are necessarily. It's important to talk to your kid a little bit about that in a delicate way. You know, there's been some reactions. Not every family is, you know, talking about this stuff, but you want to praise your kid as well in the sense that they are not feeling ashamed to mention these body parts. But it's a really tough one because it depends so much. I had been the recipient of that phone call once, but it wasn't about talking. It was about one of my kids kids mooning other kids in the playground.

Vanessa (24:38)

Oh, honey, come sit by me.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (24:39)

I mean, I was so mortified. I was like, oh, God, you know, I'm the pediatrician. But then I like took a step back and I was like, but okay, yes, we can. This, this provides a great teaching moment for my kid about what is appropriate and inappropriate and like, where we can do certain things. But it also provides me a teaching moment as well that, that these conversations have to happen often and you repeat and you layer and you nuance. I think for the mom in question, it might be helpful also to provide her with resources. And that's probably what I would do. I would provide her with resources not just for herself, but to pass on to, because the teacher should have those resources and have that information. This is why this curriculum is such a great idea. But resources like this book, but also resources that are written kind of in a layperson friendly way, podcasts, things like that, where you can teach the wider audience why this is important and why we do this. I think that's kind of where I'd start.

Cara (25:41)

So you're reading my mind. You get an A for that answer. I would love to know.

Vanessa (25:46)

Clairvoyance.

Cara (25:48)

Yes, exactly. I would love to know. I mean, you know, I do believe that we, the three of us sitting here being people who, who have studied this for a long time, worked in this field for a long time, feel very passionate about this. Should not be not sharing the resources we've created. So I feel really good about people knowing about those. But you used the word evidence before. I would love to know where you point people, especially in a moment when it's very hard to find good science online. Where do you tend to point people so that they can get sort of a straight primary source science backed information? I mean we will take science and translate it and cite it. All of our listeners know that you do that and I think it's important for all of our listeners to know that. But is there an evidence based cite that you like or is there sort of a primary source that you like for the people who say show me the numbers or show me the, the research?

Dr. Krupa Playforth (26:55)

Some of that information is so dense that I think it can be really hard to access. Which is why usually where I send people is resources like your book and your, your podcast. Because I think that what they need is somebody to distill that evidence down in a way that's like accessible and practical. Some of the other resources that I think provide great evidence based information and I don't just mean in this context but across the board. When it comes to child health stuff, stuff, I often will send people to Emily Oster's website and her parent data because I think she does a good job and I read her stuff. So I agree with a lot of not everything, but a lot of what she says and I think she does a really nice job of providing a bird's eye view, providing some of the science and then going back to the bird's eye view as well. There's other pediatricians that are creating content. Healthy Children from the American Academy of Pediatrics has some information on this as well. And I think there's more and more that's coming out because as we find our voices as pediatricians and start really more heavily advocating for this, I'd be curious about where else you will send people.

Cara (28:01)

Yeah, you know Krupa, we love that. Thank you for sending people our way. One of the sites that we reference several times in our curriculum is a site called safekids worldwide. We'll link it in the show notes. It's safekids.org and what's the amazing about this site is it goes age group by age group, risk by risk, providing advice and data. It explains, for instance, you know, I'm just going to pull a random topic, pedestrian safety. So it starts with data and Then gives safety tips, and then sort of points you to resources about why. So for those looking, it does not have a lot on the topic that we are covering. This is where there's a little bit of a hole, But I feel confident that we're working to. I hate the word normalize, but normalize all of this so that it's not even. You don't even have to have it on a safety lift. I'm waiting for the word of the year to be vulva. You know, like, that's how normal I want it to be. Vanessa's like, cara, dream on.

Vanessa (29:20)

No, I mean, who knows? You know? Like, there are more shocking things that have happened in the world, so you never know. We were talking about. I was talking about something with my kids, and someone said something about hair on the vagina. I was like, come on, guys. Where is the hair? And they're like, like, sorry, mom, on the vulva. And then. And then there was a whole conversation about, like, can you imagine if there was hair growing inside someone's vagina? And I was like, oh, wow, we're going deep. Sorry, that was a terrible pun. But, like, I know. And people are probably listening, like, what the hell is going on in your house? But what does it do? It helps them discuss all sorts of stuff that they've, like, imagined or wondered about or worried about or, like, aren't sure about in open conversations. And sometimes people say to us, I'm sure you get this too. Like, can I just send my kid to your house so you can have the conversation?

Dr. Krupa Playforth (30:16)

I do get this.

Vanessa (30:18)

You must get that. Can you come home with me or can you. So I want to talk about.

Cara (30:23)

Vanessa says, no.

Vanessa (30:25)

No, I don't. I'm like, yeah, send them over. Like, great, Whatever. Like, any way to normalize this stuff? I'm on. I'm on board. It was so funny. We were. I was at my sister's house. We were talking about our alcohol episode, and there was, like, a table full of teenager all waiting to go somewhere. My nephew was like, tianessa, we're in the middle of your alcohol episode I didn't know about. And he inserted some fact, and we started talking about alcohol and, like, what are people doing? And what are you guys noticing and what are you seeing? And there was a girl who was not part of our family listening to the conversation. She could. You could tell. She, was, like, in total shock. And my sister was like, welcome to our family. This is what conversations sound like in our family. So for. Again, for those people where that's not happening. And for those people who didn't grow up in families or in cultures or in religions or in other societies or communities where that happened. Talk us through. Right? Because that's your story. You're doing things differently than how you were raised. How do people get there? What are the baby steps? What is the pathway for them knowing all the stuff we've talked about, why it's so important? How did they get themselves there to do it differently with their own kids?

Dr. Krupa Playforth (31:41)

I think that actually there is more awareness that I'm starting to see amongst parents, at least in my community. But it's not universal. Like sometimes if you're on like a Facebook mom group, I see a lot of debates about like the curricula that you know, because the curricula for sex ed and things like that are sent out ahead of time. And there's a lot of parents that are like, oh, but you can opt out. I'm going to opt out. My kid doesn't need to hear this. I think that those forums provide an opportunity, but they sometimes it sometimes kind of ends up being like a little bit not nuanced enough. Like it can get a little combative. I think that the better opportunity is modeling in your community, like with your friends, with your family. I actually have a story from this week. My 4 year old said something about how the nanny asked him to keep a secret about like a ring pop, right? And my nanny is wonderful and I really don't care about the ring pop, but it provided a great opportunity, a teaching moment for my 4 year old for us to revisit secrets. And we've been reading my book because I got the author copies ahead and so it was a great way to tie that back into the book. But then I gave my nanny a copy of the book and I explained the reasoning and she was like, oh, I totally get it. And she has grandkids. And she was like, this is going to change how I talk to my grandkids about it. So it's a matter of like it's a drip, drip, drip. It's these conversations that you have to keep having, both with kids, but then with other adults too. I find with extended family as well. I also think modeling it is another great way to do it. So like I model it in the office with my patients, but I also model it with my kids so that the grandparents are just seeing it and hearing it. And yes. Does it cause some like awkwardness and weirdness?

Cara (33:24)

Sure.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (33:24)

But if you're matter of fact about it and you explain, this is the thing. I think sometimes we get defensive, but if we actually explain, most parents, most grandparents, most nannies, most caregivers, they want to do the right thing. And this is like an important topic. It seems like sometimes, particularly in this cultural moment or in this moment of history, we have lost the ability to have non defensive conversations about topics that maybe have a little bit of emotionality to them. We just need to like be a little bit gentler and be willing to meet people in the middle and then, then take them along gently.

Cara (34:02)

You know what I love about this? You started it by talking about opting out. And what you showed in the course of those few sentences is that there's a way to not opt out. When you weave this into daily life, there's no opt out. It's just, it's at the dinner table, it's in the car, it's just in the zeitgeist, right? And look, the opt out is always going to be there. I mean, hopefully not always always, but at least, least for this foreseeable future there's going to be an opt out. And I think there's a beautiful way to do what you're talking about, which is bringing in this content in all these other settings and forms so that soon enough the opt out seems silly. Well, I talked to my parents about this and I talked. My nanny talks to me about this, my pediatrician talks to me about this. You know, when we talk about body parts in school with the school nurse, this comes up, they ask me what's hurting and we use the right term. So I'd like, mom, I'm good with this, dad, this is good information. I want to sit in this class, I want to learn about it. Or the parents getting comfortable with it. I'm not suggesting like you be insidious about it. I just think it's been dumped on schools and schools need backup. And if parents, grandparents, other trusted adults, if you recognize that you are scaffolding and you are going to help scaffold around this kid, and the school is one tower of scaffolding, one piece and you are another piece. And the other people in their lives, their siblings, all the things, I mean,

Dr. Krupa Playforth (35:42)

what is the key to learning, right? Repetition, repetition is the key to learning. And when you set the foundation, then you can add complexity as your child matures, as they ask questions. But you have to have that foundation. It's not just about body parts, right? Because we're talking about consent and privacy. Those are foundational concepts that are gonna become so important for everybody's safety, Setting boundaries isn't just about sex. It's about all the things. And if you normalize or destigmatize, setting boundaries from the beginning, you know, your kid says, oh, grandma, I don't wanna hug you today. Let's do a fist bump instead. Like, that's okay. You're allowed to do that. Okay.

Vanessa (36:21)

But then grandma says, says, you don't love me anymore. I thought you loved me. If you loved me, you would give me a hug. And my feelings are so hurt. How could I have a grandchild who doesn't want to hug me? So what's the language there? As the adult observing this attempt at boundary setting and this transgression of boundary setting and. I know.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (36:44)

And then the emotional guilt on top of it, right? Like that. For sure.

Vanessa (36:49)

I've observed it with my own eyes. We've heard so many people tell us this very story. What is the language? What is the modeling? What is some words that parents and caregivers can use in the face of that kind of commentary?

Cara (37:06)

We'll be right back. But first, a word from our sponsors.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (37:11)

So there's two pieces that I would recommend in that situation. One, you're still your child's protector and advocate, right? So you step in there smoothly without making it awkward. Oh, you know what? He doesn't have to give hugs if he doesn't want to. But, you know, why don't you try a fist bump? And, you know, just like kind of steering and distracting the conversation away. But then the second piece. And the second piece is the really, really the other critical piece of this. You have to pull that parent, grandparent or whoever it was aside later and talk to them about it. Talk to them about why we don't want to use emotional guilt, trippy language in that context. Talk about why that boundary is there and why you've taught your child that. And, and honestly, I think most grandparents are going to understand once you give them the reasoning behind it, and hopefully they will remember that. Now, is that universally true? Probably not.

Cara (38:00)

But we have to give people the

Dr. Krupa Playforth (38:02)

benefit of the doubt. And tone matters.

Cara (38:04)

Tone matters.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (38:05)

Attack them.

Cara (38:06)

Right. And I think that's really critical because you can use the exact same words, this might have happened to one of us on this podcast. You can use the exact same words that are educating that that older generation and trying to explain the rationale. And you can bite at them and be annoyed and frustrated, or you can engage them and partner with them. And everyone knows intellectually, it's the second strategy that works Better. The second strategy is really hard to do when you're watching your kid in a situation and, you know, your mother or your father or your uncle or whoever knows better. I mean, you, like, know everyone intellectually gets it, but it just is what it is. And adults need education in the same way that kids need education. And frankly, Krupa, there have been times in my own personal life, and certainly my clinical life, where I've learned a lot from the older generation where just because. Right? Like, just because they have a different framing doesn't mean our framing is right and theirs is wrong.

Vanessa (39:12)

And it's interesting. Okay, but also on some things.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (39:16)

I mean, that's some things.

Vanessa (39:17)

On this one and this one, I. The number of times I've been asked to swallow my instincts and, like, let my boundaries down. The number of times I've. My kids have been told or asked. And this is, like, in families that

Cara (39:34)

are, you know, I get it.

Vanessa (39:35)

Have had the virtue of, like, lots of education and exposure to cultures and, like, a million things, and still kids are being told, like, don't listen to your gut. Don't listen to your instinct. Like, grandma's feelings or this uncle's feelings are more important. And I say BS like there's nothing more important. Cara's just a nicer person than I am, so she's. Maybe.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (40:00)

But that made me think of a third piece, though. That made me think of a third piece. I think that the other piece of this is to talk to your child and debrief after the fact as well about what happened, why you said what you said, why, you know, support them and reinforce you did the right thing. I know it may not have seemed that way, but you did the right thing. You are providing this positive reinforcement because otherwise they're going to question it, right? Like, especially if you add that layer of, like, do you even love me? So that's the third piece. But in any of these conversations, and I talk about this even when parents are having a hard time with their pediatricians, like, you start off with the framework with. In your brain, but then also you say it out loud. We are on the same team, right? Like, we. I know we both really want little Johnny to be safe. And this is what the evidence shows. This is how we've decided to do it. And then they're scaffolding there, too, and there's repetition there. Because even if you told grandma once, like, maybe it didn't stick, maybe she had a couple extra glasses of wine that night. So then you repeat it. Repeat it.

Cara (41:02)

I Want to speak out, though, for the older generation in one specific context.

Vanessa (41:05)

Oh, my God.

Cara (41:06)

Still, I am. I'm gonna rep. I'm gonna rep the boomers for a second, and here's why. Because I think there's one scenario in which it's very important for us to recognize. Okay, go with me on the analogy. In the same way that when vaccines were new and people recognized that these diseases that vaccines prevented were life threatening in many cases, and then they could take a vaccine, and they were so excited to take a vaccine, and then a generation later, people didn't realize these were deadly illnesses and they didn't think they needed the vaccine. And right here's where we are in vaccine. Okay. I want to apply this to body parts and the conversation we're having. And I want to frame it this way. Sometimes the older generation is coming from a perspective of being sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, having some history that not only did they live with, but also given the timing of when it happened to them, they couldn't talk about. And sometimes where they're coming at this from is it's all bottled up in there, and they. They love these grandchildren or nieces or nephews or family friends, and they want to protect them in the way that they think they can protect them. They are not in conversation. They have not worked all this through, and they're just doing the best they can with the information they have. And my point is, I think empathy goes a long way and having conversations. And this is why I say tone matters. Having conversations with the older generation where we get curious and find out, okay, but why do you really want this person to hug you? Maybe you're going to hear, because I want to be their person, because I didn't have a person and I want to keep them safe. Like, there's often not an evil seed behind it. There's often just a seed that underlies it. And then we can all be on the same side because you guys are right. Like, we are all on the same side and we don't want to keep them safe. Totally.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (43:13)

You. You take that and you run with it, right? Because of course they want to keep them safe. They want them to feel loved.

Cara (43:18)

But Vanessa's right. That draw a hard line with most of it is all I'm going to say.

Vanessa (43:24)

Yeah, I mean, I think we can.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (43:25)

I think having empathy is important.

Vanessa (43:27)

I think we can have empathy. And also they can go talk to a therapist about all this stuff that they haven't dealt with because we're busy, like, trying to take care of our kids and like we can't take care of everybody. Sorry, that was harsh. But T.R. i think having empathy and I think coming at it in a way that doesn't shut them down, that doesn't shame the older generation too. And I use the term we're on the same side, we want the same thing. And that is 100% true. I want to get at something that is also very generational was which is this concept of secrets. You mentioned it early and I want to go back to that. Because we grew up, all of us, no matter what background we came from, what culture, secrets were accepted. In some ways, secrets were encouraged. Right. This is private, this is secret. The line between privacy and secrecy is. Was very blurry for us there. We weren't educated about privacy and boundaries in the same way. And yet secrecy and privacy are two very different things. One is really important to health and safety and one is actually in counterpoint point in some ways to health and safety. Can you talk about. You use the example of your. Your nanny earlier. I like to talk to my kids about camp counselors or other people who might tell them to keep something secret. Why is that actually dangerous and worrying for kids, even though it's often not intended that way? And how do we help parse that language?

Dr. Krupa Playforth (45:03)

It also comes up, I think, with the idea of surprises. Right. Like you if someone's running a surprise party or has a surprise gift and like you want to keep it secret, there are secrets that feel exciting, like you're part of a club. It's unfortunate that like it all kind of has to get lumped in together, but I think it does. If you think about my nanny Talking to my 4 year old about this, my 4 year old does not know the difference between a secret that is like not a big deal, like a ring pop. I mean, it would have been better not to have given him the ring pop, but you know, it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. And a secret about something that, that puts them in danger. And you know kids, I think there's a learning curve to understanding that. And a lot of that learning curve comes from the way we are talking about things and what we're explaining to them. But I think it's really important for everyone around them to know and for them to know. No one should be keeping asking me to keep a secret because I have a safe grownup. And it all comes back to the safe harbor concept. The book talks about and actually encourages kids while they're reading to name Their safe grownups. And that has been like a really important point as I've been reading the book with my 4 year old because we name the safe grownups every time we read it. And they're safe grownups that I now know who he thinks of and he repeats himself in the event that something ever came up. The book talks about if someone asks you to keep a secret, you can still tell you're a safe grownup. So it doesn't mean you're like breaking confidence necessarily. But still a grownup that you hope that you trust and they trust knows what's happening. And that can be even about something exciting. It's tough because secrets really were like a big part of the way that we grew up. That, I think is why so many people in that generation ended up in these situations where they couldn't talk about things because they felt shamed. It is hard for a child to know where that line is.

Cara (46:54)

I want a bold underline and all caps. The word we that you repeated several times in there because what you've done is you've put yourself in partnership with the kid. What you've done is you said, as the parent or the guardian, I'm helping my child identify another safe adult, a surrogate to me, but I'm helping them do it with me, which also makes me their safe adult. And then they've got this team and I know who's on the team. And if that feels right and if that team doesn't feel right to me, the adult, I'm going to help them rethink their choice of safe adult. Like this is. That's your next book, Kirpa. It's about right because all of this is part of the same conversation. We could stay on for hours and talk to you. It is. What is incredible about your book is that it is written for kids. So it has very few words. Every single word is well chosen, which I cannot necessarily say about myself and what comes out of my mouth, but out of your book. It is a beautiful book. It is a book that we will for sure be pointing educators and parents to as they look for tools to be in conversation with a topic that I am determined. You are determined. Vanessa is determined to be a nothing burger in the next five to 10 years. But right now it's a burger.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (48:24)

So I like that framing.

Cara (48:28)

Let's do it. You are a pleasure. Thank you.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (48:31)

This has been so fun. I could keep talking and talking and talking, but there's so much here to talk about.

Vanessa (48:37)

Come back and come back and visit us. There's so many so many hot topics we didn't get to and we will link to the book in the show notes and we would love to hear from people's stories and scenarios where they were grappling with with consent, boundaries, privacy, secrecy and maybe even if you wish you'd done things differently and are looking for a little guidance on how you could have done it differently with the youngers or the olders, we could all take a do over sometimes. So Krupa, come back and visit us. It's so great to have you.

Dr. Krupa Playforth (49:14)

Likewise. It was nice to be here.

Vanessa (49:16)

Thank you so much for listening. You can email us with questions, feedback or episode requests@podcastawkward.com if you want to

Cara (49:27)

learn more about what we do to make this whole stage of life less awkward for everyone involved. Our parent membership, our school health ed curriculum, our keynote talks and more are

Vanessa (49:39)

all@lessawkward.com and if you want products that make puberty so much more comfortable, visit myumla.com.