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- [00:00]
A
Study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more@windows.com studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka mscollegepc they have full lives that have nothing to do with you. The joy that you might feel at surprising them may throw them so completely off their game they've got a paper due or an exam. There's so many reasons why the surprise visit is really not a great idea. Hi Vanessa.
- [01:02]
B
Oh, hello, Cara.
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A
I'm gonna start this episode by admitting something, by owning up to something great.
- [01:12]
B
I'm excited.
- [01:13]
A
You've heard this before because everyone who I talk to on a regular basis knows this about me. But now I'm gonna own up to it for the general podcasting audience.
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B
And I might not even remember the first time you told me, so I'm excited. So it's new to me all over again.
- [01:31]
A
That's the most fun thing about perimenopause. Here's my admission. I got an F in Empty Nesting. Oh, I did.
- [01:43]
B
Your first F ever. Maybe in your whole life. It might have been.
- [01:50]
A
I did Year one, Season one. Episode one was an F for me. And it doesn't mean we're graded on our ability to manage Empty nesting, but when I look back at how I approached that moment in my life, even though we do this for a living, even though we talk to so many people and get so much advice about all of the transitions and life stages, I still could not apply that advice to myself. And I did what I would say is a terrible job. But I did take the advice we give every single week. And I took a do over. And the first thing I did is I stopped grading myself on Empty nesting. Let's be clear. Right?
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B
Right.
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A
But then I took a do over on my approach when I realized my approach was not working for me. And so I'm so excited for this episode because we get to talk about the wins and the fails and all the predictable in betweens of Empty Nesting.
- [03:04]
B
Are you going to tell us how you were so terrible or is that going to just come out throughout the course of the episode?
- [03:11]
A
Well, I mean, I think it's probably important to set the stage with a little detail and clarity, a little mood setting, set the mood yes, I'm going to dim the lights here. No, what I did, Vanessa, is when my second and youngest child went to college, I decided this would be a fabulous time to dive into 247 work. I decided that was a coping strategy that had always worked for me in the past. And so why not embrace it fully? And there was a lot of work to be done. And it wasn't that I was doing something that felt not important or not productive. What I was doing though, was I was ignoring my entire emotional experience and I was ignoring the other person in my house who was also becoming an empty nester. And the two of us, both clinicians, both really good at being non emotional when need be. The two of us kind of used the same strategy. And then we emerged about five or six months later. It was actually when our kids were home over the holidays and we looked at each other like, okay, we really blew that one. You know, all these people doing all these. It wasn't even about the amazing trips, although those trips are really amazing that those people all take when their kids leave. But it wasn't even about that. It was about we really didn't give ourselves the time or, or permission or bandwidth to explore a different kind of pace in our life. And when we realized that we missed that opportunity, we were like, okay, let's go back and take a do over. And we got much better at being empty nesters. Like, I mean, it's so great now. It's, I mean, it's all the emotions. It's sad, it's lonely, it's, you know, not spontaneous moments with your kids. It's all the things that we'll get into. And yet it's amazingly freeing to realize that who you're accountable to has changed.
- [05:30]
B
Yeah, now you just have to send the dogs off to college. And then, I mean, so you're, you're naming the mixed stew the pot of emotions. Right. There's the grief, there's the sadness, there's the opportunity, there's the elation. There's a million things and we're going to get into so many of them. I am sort of halfway through the journey towards empty nesting. I have now. I have one who's graduated from college and is living not too far away. One in college and then two at home. One nearly on her way and one we've got, we still got some work to do on that one. So I can talk about the grief of when the kids leave and you still have some at home. I cry a lot. I cry a lot when My kids leave. I cry when they leave at the beginning of the semester. I cry when they.
- [06:27]
A
You cry when they come home though too.
- [06:29]
B
Cry when they come home. I cry when they leave again at the end of the break to go back. I cry when I see them again when I go for parents weekend. I cry when they come home at winter break. I cry when they leave at winter break. I. I mean, it's like some people aren't criers and that's totally fine. Some people are surprised at how much they cry around their kids departure and not at other things. I'm just generally a crier. So it's not.
- [06:57]
A
One day when I leave your house after staying there, you'll cry and then I'll know I really made it.
- [07:02]
B
I mean, it's really. No offense, but it's like really just my children. Even Roger doesn't get like, there's no tears for Raj when he goes or comes back. It's really just my kids. And they check. They check to make sure that I'm crying. Like they want the validation that I'm crying. But I will say, because this is one I have lived so far and you are going to live soon. Then they graduate and when my oldest moved out of the house. Cause he lived at home for several months to save money before he started a job and moved into the city and New York City. Sorry, I know it's not the city, it's a city.
- [07:42]
A
The big city.
- [07:43]
B
The big city. I got so sad when he was moving out. Cause I was like, oh, my God. He goes, oh, don't worry, Mom, I'm gonna be back a ton. Like, it's not me. And he is. He's back a ton because I feed him and there's tons of food in the fridge and I make him all his favorite foods. And that is enough to incentivize him. So for those of you looking at that reality, I will say it's actually surprisingly, now he happens to live near where we live. So it's different for people whose kids may end up in other cities. I would probably just show up. So we're gonna break this conversation down into a few different chunks. One is, how can you prepare for kids to leave you? Short answer is you can't totally prepare. But there are some practical things you can do with your kid before they leave. And kind of acknowledging how empty nesting, or as some people call it, free birding, is different for different people. And we can talk about why and also acknowledge that not everyone is sad, that for some people, this is a wonderful new stage of life and they're feeling just great about it, how to handle it if you are having a hard time. And also, and this is super important, how to stay connected to your kid when they're gone. And what if you're worried about them? Because that is also.
- [09:07]
A
And what if they don't want to stay connected? So we're going to. And what if we're going to get to that. Yeah, we're going to get to that. But let's start with the prep, because I think.
- [09:16]
B
Sounds like colonoscopy.
- [09:17]
A
Yes. Well, it is. I mean, the analogy is very, very spot on. You know, I think we. We all anticipate the feeling of what it's going to be like one day when they are off on their own. And that initially that feeling is dominated by the worry that they're not going to be able to do it. Right. It's like a very practical sense of anticipation. It's like, do they have the skills to actually, you know, do their laundry, do their grocery shopping, manage the relationships in their lives? All the things. Right. And so it's very much the worry is very much about them. And then over time, as kids get through middle school and high school, the anticipation shifts to us. Right. So how are we going to shift and change our lives when they are gone? And that's like, I'd say the winter and spring before my son graduated from high school, when we were pre empty nesters, I would say that was the topic of conversation. Oh, I don't know, like 100% of the time. Right. All these parents and the seasoned parents would swoop in and give advice about how they did change their lives, how good they are at pickleball, how amazing they are at traveling, how, like, they go out every night to dinner. And it's an amazing thing because you start to sort of. You start to pull these threads from all these people who have done this. You're not the first one to do this, and you're not going to be the last one to do this. But there are so many little details that I didn't anticipate wondering about. That started to pop up in my prep phase, and I will say the prep phase, for people who have more than one child, if you already have had all but one, go off to work or college or the military or wherever they're going when they leave your nest and there's one left. The thing that's most amazing, Vanessa, I cannot wait for you to experience this next year, is how that last child Fills all the space. Like you just don't know how that's going to work. And it does.
- [11:52]
B
You know what Ozzy says? He's like, oh, I'm so. I'm so effed when I'm the last one. It's just gonna be you and dad staring at me all the time, talking to me all the time, like in my business all the time. And yes, so we are doing a little practicing on kind of what that reality is gonna. But it's gonna be. We're trying to shift the narrative away from so effed to something like slightly more positive.
- [12:24]
A
It's not. It's so funny because I think you think it's going to be that way. Like you're all just staring at each other in the kitchen. But it's different. They find a different voice. They've had to have this one voice for their whole family life. Kids who are only kids, it's a different scenario because they've had to fill this space as they've been growing up. But for kids who had older siblings around or older cousins or whoever else was in the house, they come into their own. I mean, the years, the two years where it was just three of us living in the house, not four of us, are the years that Ry, my son Ry, went from silence to conversation. And some of it was maturity, some of it was stage of life, puberty, all the things. And some of it was. There was actually space for him to speak in the house.
- [13:15]
B
There was more oxygen.
- [13:17]
A
There was literally not room before. Right? And so when that space opens. But this brings up an interesting point, which is if you're in a situation like me, where your somewhat non communicative child becomes communicative, as there is more room for that, then you're sitting there going, okay, well, what's the communication plan going forward? Because when you leave my house, I am not losing this relationship, right? There is no way I'm losing this relationship.
- [13:49]
B
Right? You've worked so hard. So certain people have reporters, right, who are going to check in and text a million times a day and be in touch no matter what. And a lot of us have kids who have a different communication style, who maybe don't feel the need to be in touch with us quite so much, who can hold things closer to the vest, which is totally within their rights. I mean, think about, like, how often we spoke to our parents when we were at college. And the answer is not very often at all. So coming up with a set of expectations ahead of time, that feels fair to the kid and also allows us not to feel like that the cord is being severed the minute they step on a plane or into a car on a bus. And so I always start, as I did do with most things with my kids, like, what do you think's realistic? I want to be sure that I'm in, you know, in regular touch with you, and you're in touch with me. Like, what seems fair. And sometimes they can't anticipate, and sometimes they don't know how they're going to feel. And it goes through waves. It's not a consistent. Like, you know, I text you every morning or I speak to you once a week. It's. It's going to go in waves. It's going to depend, and it's going to need do overs and rejiggers. And the hard thing, Cara and I, I know you feel this way because I've watched you deal with this while we're on Zoom together and one of us gets a call. When your kids are away, you will drop everything to answer your phone call. I mean, Samson, my oldest, calls inevitably at every keynote talk we're giving, and anytime we're recording with a guest, there's like a phone call. But so part of it is what's fair to, what feels fair to the kid about how much you're in touch. And also how do you live your life while they're gone. Right. And, like, we do want to drop everything and be there immediately for our kids. What should their expectation be about our responsiveness?
- [15:48]
A
I love your use of the word fair, because really, that's what it is. This is a bargain that you're striking with your kid. Right. And you started with reasonable and you switched to fair. And I think that's sort of the process of emptying the nest. You start with a conversation of what feels doable, but the negotiation lands on, how can I fit into your life still? Like, I want to fit into your life still. Please do me that honor. I am not going to be setting curfews for you if you're not living under my roof. But I want to know how you're doing. I want to know what makes you happy or what made you laugh today or when things are going poorly, you can pick up the phone and call me. But in the name of what's fair, please don't just call me when things are going badly. Right. And not share the fun stuff. So there are.
- [16:47]
B
Or vice versa.
- [16:49]
A
Or vice versa. Right. And so there are lots of ways through. If you have had kids, leave the house before. These are paths you're familiar with for people who only have one child, and they're sort of getting the practice round and the empty nest happening all at once. You're navigating both of these at the same time. It's totally doable. But the empty nest phenomenon layers on top of, like, Vanessa, you will have had three kids move out before the fourth one makes you an empty nester. You're going to be a pro at navigating what you want the relationship to look like, right?
- [17:28]
B
I mean, theoretically. But with everything in raising kids, there's like, you can never put pro after any of it. Just like the absurdity of expert after parenting. What I will say is the benefit of younger kids watching older kids, if things are going well, if there's a good cadence, if they're in touch, is that they're modeling for their siblings what it looks like to be in touch under all circumstances. And so that becomes the expectation that you are in touch. Having said that, there's the complication of tracking kids.
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A
Let's talk about that.
- [18:10]
B
We should talk about that, right? There's a few reasons why people track when kids are still living at home. Mostly concerns about safety and making sure they are where they need to be. I actually, personally very rarely use tracking. My kids are on one of the tracking apps. We all are. But I very, very rarely use it because I'm trying to help them build the skill of being in communication with me and other people. And I don't want it to just default to like, hey, but you track me, you should know where I am. I want them to build the skill of being in touch. And with college kids, people track because they want to know that their kids are safe. Understandable, Right. But they also kind of just want to know what their kids are up to. Also an understandable desire. So for college kids, they should know that you can track them. Like, this should not be some kind of surveillance situation where kids are being tracked and they don't know. I know people who are like, well, my son didn't sleep in his own bed last night. He slept somewhere else. And I'm like, oh, wow. Well, when we were in college, our parents didn't know whose bed we were sleeping in. And I'm sure grateful about that. So. So it's not a way to get private information from your kids that they wouldn't choose to share. So what I would encourage people who are considering tracking for intel as opposed to safety. And again, safety. I would encourage you to get your kids to be in touch with you regularly about how they're doing and their safety in terms of more like dish on their lives. I would encourage folks to to figure out ways to be in conversation with their kids about what's going on and how things are going and also make space for there to be a lot of private stuff in their lives.
- [19:56]
A
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- [20:11]
B
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A
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- [22:15]
A
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- [22:25]
B
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- [22:26]
A
Have a ball. Cocktails up here.
- [22:29]
B
Feel just right, Ms. Cambria. Amazing.
- [22:34]
A
All right, Bring a date, your team, or even your mom. Book direct@Choice Hotels.com. see you on the roof. I love that advice. I will add. One thing that we did in our family, and I did this because I got the advice from so many parents who came before me, was to move away from unidirectional tracking where the parents tracking the kid and instead have location sharing so that this is a new chapter, right? It's, hey, I can see where you are. You can see where I am. That's in the name of safety. That was comfortable for me, and it's worked really well in our family. I will add. I'm making a social media video about that. You know how much I love to make social media.
- [23:27]
B
I know. It's really your jam, Cara.
- [23:29]
A
It's totally my jam. I'm making a video about when I realized that my kids have, like, 40 people on their Find My. To me, if you're on Find My. It's like the most intimate circle of people who you care so deeply that they're safe and healthy and okay. And I guess my kids care so deeply about so many people because I've got four on mine and they've got like 40. And yet I think that speaks to exactly this shift. It's. You know, there is a safety component. We have told our kids for years, and colleges do a very good job of this saying, buddy up, buddy up at parties, buddy up when you're out at night, don't ever be alone. This is a way to buddy up. This is a way that kids keep an eye on each other and can make sure that someone is where they say they are. And so there's a beautiful thing about it not being about you, the parent who is checking on them, but instead a new language for how they sort of check in on all the people they care about. You're at, like, the very bottom of that list, but you're on there.
- [24:45]
B
And also make sure you, you know, remember that your kids are tracking you.
- [24:51]
A
Oh, yes.
- [24:53]
B
Just. Just saying. Putting it out there for anyone who's making different choices about their empty nesting reality. Just keep it in mind. The other thing that's funny is about how kids like to connect. It's not just a phone call. I have one kid who likes to FaceTime me while he's, like, walking through campus or on his way. I'm not always prepared to receive a facetime so There was a FaceTime that I received when he was at some event with, like, eight new friends. And he FaceTimed me, forgetting about a time difference. And I was in bed in my nightgown with my mouth guard in and my face mask. And I answered, do you have a sleep cap on? I mean, basically. And I answered. And I was like. He was, like, with, like, seven girls he had just met. And I was like, oh, my God. And I. So I, like, quickly, like, tried to
- [25:45]
A
totally the image you want to project.
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B
And I was just like, hey, everybody. So just realize they may be in touch in new ways with new technologies, and, you know, prepare yourself for that as well, which is hilarious. You're usually in, like, transitional moments. They're in touch. I mean, my brother has a comedy special, which some of which I do not love because it's about how moms are annoying, which I take great offense to. But he does talk about how we call our moms on our way to places, to and from places. And I have noticed that with college, it's like we're keeping them company during their day, and it might feel like, oh, that's dismissive. But it's actually kind of sweet because those are maybe the moments where they're feeling at sea or a little bit lonely or a little bit lost, and so we can kind of keep them company.
- [26:35]
A
So I was on a walk with Dolly Clock, who, for those of you who recognize her name, she's been on the podcast before. She's a family practice doctor who does a lot around adolescent culture and decision making and body changes and all the things we love her. And Dolly was telling me this was right when I was becoming an empty nester. She said, oh, in our family, my kids love FaceTime so much that we just have a family FaceTime. And it's the same time every week. And everyone just jumps onto the link. And usually someone's folding laundry. Usually the phone is on a desk facing up to the ceiling. But it's an amazing experience. And I started doing it, and it's awesome. And, in fact, what I thought was gonna be onerous for the kids. Cause I thought, like, you know, whatever, they love it. We had Sunday night dinner with their grandparents for their whole childhood. And so we just flipped it into Sunday night FaceTime. And they love it. And they actually. I mean, my two kids do stay in pretty close touch. They're not at the same school, but they are very connected. But they seem to connect more about sort of things that would never come up in the quick, you know, that quick text where you're like walking to a class and you're like, you know, oh, I'm going to grab this picture of this dog pooping and send it to my sister. That kind of thing does not allow for a lot of real meaningful catch up. And that I have found these FaceTimes are amazing. I have also found, and this is a way that I have gotten better as an empty nester. I have found that it's an opportunity for me and for my husband to start treating our kids a little bit more like adults and to start folding them into decisions that we might be making as family decisions. And every family is going to choose to do this differently. But for us, you know, one of the things about being independent is including kids in our thinking about things that don't really directly affect them, but kind of affect them, you know.
- [28:57]
B
Yeah.
- [28:58]
A
You know, decisions about how you spend money or decisions about things that they are now seeing our process and they're weighing in and they're saying like, well, why would you do that? Or that's really smart. What about this? And I feel like it's a head start for them to think about adult decision making because they don't have a whole lot of skin in the game, but the people they love do and they get to be participants in these conversations.
- [29:29]
B
Yeah, I mean, I ask my older kids for advice about their siblings, all the how to handle different things, and it's super helpful. My kids have a Snapchat group chat, just the four of them, without us. So there's all sorts of communication that happens amongst them. One of the things like a picture
- [29:48]
A
of you and your night guard and
- [29:49]
B
probably me looking ridiculous, their father looking ridiculous, the dog looking cute, you know, all that stuff. But one of the things that we had to learn to manage is if there are kids left at home, what the etiquette is for responding to and being in touch with siblings, older siblings away at college or vice versa. Kids at home with siblings away, their feelings get hurt if siblings don't respond, if they don't reciprocate. And so being really clear about being in touch with each other and respectful of each other, like you're out of it. Right. They have independent relationships, but setting the etiquette for, for being in touch with each other is really important. Like college kids, feelings get hurt too. And it feels bad to them when siblings don't respond or, you know, in reverse. So that's a, that's an important and explicit conversation.
- [30:44]
A
I would add to that that there have been times in the last couple of years where both of my kids are away and one of them had something happen that's just a bummer. And has they have not told the other one and they just don't have the bandwidth. They're just like life is busy and whatever and they're calling us to vent and we will occasionally play run interference and we will occasionally say to the other one, hey, have you checked in with your sibling In a while we, we won't share the thing, but I think sometimes they also need a little nudge from us and usually they're pretty grateful that we are saying they know the language of it now. They know like your brother, your sister needs a call and they need the call, frankly, more from them than from us. It's to your point of sort of, you know, what fills their cup, you know, to round out this conversation of prep. Before we get into the. The actual sort of details of empty nesting scenarios, I just want to make sure people know. There's sort of the communication plan, then there's the actual plan, the thing I got the F in right. Like how are you going to actually create space in your schedule to do something with people you love or something new that you've always wanted to try? Like, do you have some sort of goal? And if you don't, how are you going to give yourself permission to start thinking about what you want? Because I think that's the part that's hard. There's a group of people who have 25 plans and then there's a group of people like me that they didn't really want to think about it or couldn't think that there was so much going on in their life, they couldn't think about it. And I think the opportunity when everything about the way your day to day life is, you know, how that's structured, everything is shifting all of a sudden. It's a real missed opportunity to not give yourself permission to reassess.
- [33:06]
B
Yeah, I mean, I have a friend whose kid was going to school abroad and she dropped her kid and then went and traveled on her own for a week. I was like, oh, that's so brilliant. I wouldn't have thought about that. I heard from someone else who has a group of friends and they're all sort of empty nesting at the same time and they just went on an adventure together. There was like five or six of them and they went and planned something together. So I think whatever it is, whether it's like starting a new hobby, whether it's having a plan, having something to look forward to, whether it's a trip, whether it's with your partner or not, whether it's with friends, having something to look forward to, because otherwise the time will get filled with other responsibilities, like many of us have aging parents. And so if we don't plan anything, the time gets sucked up by other things which are important but a lot less fun. So have something to look forward to, something to plan that makes it feel nice and not just hard and sad.
- [34:22]
A
And along those same lines, you gotta think through who your emotional support system is. It's not the kid who just left. That's the banner headline of this episode is, you know, we always joke and say, find your trusted adult. You've got to have at least one person in your life. And if you don't have that person yet, aim to find that person who you can share. Just in the same way you want your kid to share the good and the bad, you need to find someone to share the good and the bad with. And that person cannot. It's not fair for that person to be your kid, right?
- [35:04]
B
I mean, my sobbing in their arms only lasts a couple of minutes and
- [35:07]
A
then, oh, they love it.
- [35:08]
B
They take my sob.
- [35:09]
A
I watch them.
- [35:11]
B
I think they feel. I think they feel validated. And let's acknowledge, like, some people are not sad when their kids empty now, some people are excited. They don't have mixed feelings. Sure, they miss their kid, but there's stuff they're trying, they've been waiting to do. They're reconnecting with partners. Maybe they're people who were waiting to date. Maybe they're unpartnered and are looking to date and have been waiting for their kids to leave home in order to do that. And there's a million ways in which this experience goes differently for all different people. But I think if it happens and either you've planned for it or you haven't and you're having a hard time. I really love the advice that Jenny Wallace has in her book Mattering around moments of Transition, which is thinking about where can I matter next, right? Because so much of having kids in our homes is we often feel like we matter because we're doing things with and for them. And it feels gives us a sense of purpose. And then when they're not there, we may still be doing, helping, supporting, whatever, and we can talk about that, but the sense of mattering feels less grounded. And so finding other places and communities and people with whom, for whom we matter I think is an Important framing.
- [36:36]
A
Okay. But I'm here to say that even though you and I talk a lot about service and the benefits of service and giving back and all the things. And there's so much data around how that makes everyone involved feel better and all the things, you can also find where you matter in really superficial, oh,
- [36:59]
B
totally selfish, silly things. Like, this is not, like, just in community service or whatever. This is, like, mattering in, like, you know, a mahjong group.
- [37:10]
A
I was gonna say I have yet to learn mahjong.
- [37:13]
B
And you can learn mahjong. Yeah.
- [37:15]
A
You can identify the empty nesters with their little mahjong, you know, bags, satchels, you know. But, yes, it's so true. And you've always had permission to make these choices, but the forces that were sort of weighing down on you in terms of how you chose to make those decisions were different. And now if you're living without the kids who. I mean, I always felt like the older my kids got, the more I wanted to be around for the moments where they just might happen to say something. Right. Which meant I needed to make myself accidentally available from when school was over or practice or whatever it was until they went to bed. I can't stay up that late, so I really wasn't available in the later parts of the night. But there's this whole window of when I used to feel like I just wanted to happen to be around. That's different now.
- [38:12]
B
Right.
- [38:13]
A
And that, you know, maybe that's when I exercise. Maybe that's when I read a book. Maybe that's when I, you know, get a massage or go hang out with a friend. But all of those things are valid because your own personal joy and your cup filling your own personal cup is important. Important. And Jenny talks a lot about that in the context of mattering.
- [38:41]
B
Yeah. I mean, when my kids were little, I could go out two or three nights a week, you know, after they were in bed or if the babysitter was there. Like, I went out so much more when they were younger. Now when they're older, I really don't, because those are the precious hours when they're actually around. And so I want to be here. And then all of a sudden, with empty nesting, I'm, like, anticipating, oh, I could go out to dinner. I mean, besides the fact that food is so expensive now and restaurants seem to be, like, twice as expensive as they used to be. That aside, I have the freedom to go and see friends so much more than I feel now with teenagers still at home, it begs the Question Cara about when can you go visit your kids? And you. Cara had a. Cara had a very special experience, which is she got to witness not only me visiting my kids, but also I brought my mom to come visit my kids. And I. You know, I feel so grateful I have a mom who has the ability and the energy and the will to go. And Kara, as do you. We have very youthful mothers. Many of you have met them on the podcast. But I was also being sensitive to my kids and, like, it's a lot of responsibility to have grandma come visit you at college when you're used to doing your thing. So I made the decision that I wanted to go with her so I could help set boundaries. And I think it worked pretty well. The kids understood the assignment.
- [40:18]
A
I mean, let's be clear. Vanessa chose a hotel for all of us to stay in that was the creepiest hotel ever.
- [40:24]
B
It was a very New Orleans. It was a classic New Orleans hotel, which includes a little dankness and some. And some creepiness.
- [40:33]
A
But it was an amazing thing to sit. I sat at a dinner table with Vanessa and her mom and her two older sons, who happened to go to the same college, which at that time, I was learning that my kids were going to do the more common thing, not go to the same college. And there was a moment of real, like, oh, this is amazing, because they had each other on that campus, which is its own very interesting thing. But I have this really vivid memory of they were managing all the questions from you and from your mom, and you were managing the questions that your mom was lobbing at your sons and the whole thing. And then at one point, I asked one of them a question, and he looked at me, and he was like, oh, Cara. I was like, oh, we've grown up. Like, this is. This is what empty nesting is going to feel like, because you get a kid who looks at you across the table and says, oh, Cara. And it is true. In order to visit my kids. And you have the same thing, Vanessa. I have to get on a plane, and I have very, very close friends whose kids live a drive away. And the issues they contend with are different than the issues that I contend with. I think, if I'm being honest, I think they don't see their kids a whole lot more often than I do, because the ones whose kids are closer to home, I watch those parents work very hard to give their kids an independent experience. And the reality is that when I go visit my kids, it's such a schlep that I will only go when they have a chunk of time to give me. And when they have a chunk of time to give me, they're giving me a chunk of time. It's probably like, really, when you average it out over the course of a school year, I probably get more time with my kids than some of my friends whose kids go to school 45 minutes away. I mean, it's like a real irony in that whole thing, but it's. I mean, this is not a show up and surprise situation. Strong advice against that. Because they have lives. Yeah, they have full lives that have nothing to do with you. And the joy that you might feel at surprising them may throw them so completely off their game. They've got a paper due or an exam. They've got a friend's birthday and here you are. And they were planning to go celebrate with all their friends and now they feel guilty because they have to be with you. They've just started dating someone. They're not ready for you to meet them. Like, there's so many reasons why I think the surprise visit is, by and large, really not a great idea. We'll be right back. But first, a word from our sponsors. You have one new message translating. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers is now available on Disney.
- [43:50]
B
You could say that again.
- [43:51]
A
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A
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- [44:10]
B
Rated pg. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You know, those friends who support your preference for podcasts over music on road trips. That's the energy State Farm brings to insurance. With over 19,000 local agents, they help you find the coverage that fits your needs so you can spend less time worrying about insurance and more time enjoying the ride. Download the State Farm app or go online@statefarm.com like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Tomorrow morning is knocking.
- [44:39]
A
Stock your fridge now.
- [44:40]
B
How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe?
- [44:45]
A
Or white chocolate mocha?
- [44:47]
B
Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. I've never surprised my kids. I've never even considered surprising them because I feel like it doesn't respect their independence and sense of agency. Now, there are great reasons to surprise your kid. I just haven't had any of those reasons. Like, for example, I have a kid whose birthday happens every year on winter break, so it's irrelevant. And I have another kid who's born on Halloween. And I certainly know I don't want to be hanging out with a bunch of college kids on Halloween. So like, no, thank you. The other thing I've learned, Cara, is if possible, they really prefer visits. Not on the weekend. They really prefer visits during the week because it's easier. They're not navigating a lot of social demands. You know, they have school, but if they can plan ahead, they can get their schoolwork done. I've had a funny thing happen where like they have class and they can't meet me till a certain time. And there's a part of me that's tempted to tell them to skip class. So they can never been tempted to tell. So part of it is like when your kids are far away, you go a little, you spend a little longer. So like you might, if you're going on a weekend, you might go on a Thursday. And so make sure that you are able to keep yourself busy when they do have class, when they do have other demands, like don't impinge, but also set clear expectations. So I will start the conversation with my kids far in advance, saying things like, hey, I want to get a sense of like, when you're available, what would you like to do? Who would you like to include? Is there anyone like you'd like to invite to dinner? Is there anyone you'd like me to meet while I'm not romantically, just like friends I haven't had a chance to meet? I start those conversations very early because it requires planning, coordination. This is not like a last minute situation.
- [46:48]
A
So in the same way that Dolly clock gave me advice about FaceTime, I gave her a piece of advice that she has told me was probably one of the better pieces of advice she got. And so I'll share it here. My kids grew up in California. Sunny all the time, 72, partly cloudy, the whole thing. They both went to the east coast where the winter is long, especially this winter, very long, the days are short. Then, you know, it gets dark early. Seasonal affective disorders, a very real thing. And when kids, even when kids grow up in that climate, it's a hard transition when you're on your own, but especially when you don't grow up in that climate, it's hard. And I had heard from all these people, listen, by the time February rolls around, it's hard. Like they're done with winter and winter is not done with them. Totally and my daughter's freshman year, she called us up the second week of February and she said, Beau, will you FaceTime with the dogs? And we put the dogs on FaceTime. And she just burst out in tears and she said, I just miss you guys and my kids because they participate in athletics and in spring sports, do not come home for spring break. And she was looking at a six month stretch at school without coming home. And she just burst out in tears and said, I just miss you. And my husband said, would you like me to get on a plane this weekend? And she said, you would. And he got on a red eye Friday night. He spent Saturday with her. They took a walk, they went out for lunch. He took her roommates out for dinner. He got on a plane at 8 o' clock on Sunday morning and he flew home. And she said it was literally the best thing that ever happened to her. So we started this sort of tradition of visiting in February. And I said to Dolly, whose daughter was also going to the northeast, and Dolly's here in LA with me, I said, ask her, but plan it. And I said, when I did it the next year, it was of course, hey, do you want to stay in the hotel with me? Yes, Mom, I want to stay in the hotel with you. The whole thing. And it was the highlight for Dolly's daughter because that's where you're sort of parachuting in, but on their terms. It's not a surprise. Right?
- [49:18]
B
Right. And I think this gets to the kind of final thing about empty nesting. And we'll do more episodes about college kids and kind of navigating that. But you know, if you're worried or you have a kid, sometimes you have a kid who calls and says, I miss you. Let me see the dog. Like they're, they're reporting in, it's very clear what's happening. And you can make a quick decision, you know, if the, the flights aren't too expensive and all of that stuff. But so sometimes it's easy to know I need to, I need to show up. Sometimes you just have a sense that things aren't awesome, that there's something going on. And some people have strong starters and then things kind of fall apart six, eight weeks into school or six months into school. Some people have real slow starters. And, you know, from preschool to elementary to middle to high school, they were always the ones, you know, having trouble at the beginning of every semester. And then they kind of like, they get settled in and they get better. Whatever your version your kid is, there's Always going to come a point where things are not quite right. You just have a sense, and they may not even realize it. They may not even have articulated it. They may not know. But you have the spidey sense, like, hmm. And that's why I think if you're not a regular FaceTime family, you gotta lay eyes on your kid once a week. You gotta lay eyes on them on FaceTime. If you have the resources or the time to just go in and see them. My kid didn't come home for fall break. He really regretted it. We went months without seeing him, and he was like, lesson learned. I'm not doing that again. Kara, you had that with your daughter. FaceTime. If you have a kid who has a history of eating issues, if you have a kid who's got other health issues, if you have a kid who you're worried about substance use, if you have a kid who's like, hygiene, you know, you're seeing the hygiene that can be reflective of mental health issues. If they're not sleeping, you often will be able to see it in their faces. Like, don't go without laying eyes on your kid in one way or another for long stretches of time, because it is important. They are burgeoning adults, but they are still kids in many, many ways. And so whatever version of that it is, I think it's super, super important.
- [51:51]
A
And I think the last place to land is when you lay eyes on them. They lay eyes on you. And sometimes they're worried about us. They think we are not doing okay without them.
- [52:04]
B
Yeah.
- [52:04]
A
I mean, my kids, both of them, have told me independently, I was a little worried about how you would do when I left, which I found hilariously, you know, very toddler thinking, like, but you are the center of the universe. But they were worried because I was articulating to them, I'm going to be sad. I was telling them how I felt, and when they could see that I was totally fine, that made them feel better. Right. And you're not always going to be totally fine. And they need to know the sort of arc of your human experience, too. So if you happen to do a FaceTime and you've had a really bad week and your kid bears witness to that, that's okay, because they can know that you can have a bad week and get past it. Right. So I think this whole notion of empty nest, it feels like it's so unidirectional. It feels like it's our experience. And yet the more we get into it, Vanessa, the more I think it's very bi directional. All the things that we're saying about ourselves really do apply to our kids. Right.
- [53:19]
B
And we're showing them how to build a relationship.
- [53:23]
A
That's right.
- [53:23]
B
As situations change. So like with my college kid who used to call me on the way to class at, you know, 9 or 10am, he now calls me on the way to work at 7:00am or on the way home from work at 7:00pm and so it's, it's about laying foundations. I just want to make one comment, Cara, for the people who are having trouble getting their kids to respond to them, to call them back to be in touch. Because I have experienced that and sometimes it's just they're really busy and they're learning how to manage all the demands, the school demands, the social demands, the not having privacy and living in their own room demands, you know, all of those things. Sometimes it's that sometimes they're struggling and they don't know how to be in touch with you about it. They don't know how to talk about it. Maybe they've done something that they're not feeling great about and they're trying to avoid talking to you because they know the minute they talk to you it's all going to come out if you lay eyes on them or they may just kind of fall apart. So I do think it's really important. Now I've spoken to some families where they pay for college and they're like, I pay for college, you have to respond to me. Other families where the kid is paying for college and the parent feels like they can't make that demand. Personally, I think tying it to finances is not an ideal approach to interpersonal expectations. I think if possible, and every family's different and every situation is different and there are families dealing with estrangement and really, really, really complicated stuff if possible. If you have a kid who's not responding to you, the approach is it's really important that I speak to you. I really love you. I want to make sure X, Y or Z. Let's set a time to speak in the next 24 hours. You choose the time we are going to speak, but let's set a time to speak rather than hey, you're on my dime. Like, because it's better if it doesn't get into accusatory, particularly if it's a kid who has screwed up and they're already dealing with shame, worry or embarrassment. If you set up that dynamic, they're going to be less likely to want to jump on the Phone.
- [55:47]
A
Right. And you're playing the long game here.
- [55:49]
B
Correct.
- [55:50]
A
And the goal is that they are financially independent one day and you cannot pull that lever. So you want to establish a relationship and a dynamic with them where you don't have to. It's not quid pro quo. It's not. I'm.
- [56:04]
B
No, it's. You're in relationship with each other.
- [56:06]
A
That's right.
- [56:07]
B
And I would love to hear from people who've dealt with this if they have other strategies. My strategy was, I want to speak to you in the next 24 hours. You pick the time, we'll get on the phone together or whatever. I had a kid who had put himself on do not disturb for an entire semester because he was trying to figure out how to deal with, like, friends texting and snap messages. And he was in class and he was in, and he just couldn't figure it out. And then I realized I wasn't on bypass, so I was being do not disturb. Like, mine were being blocked also. And I was, like, angry. And my husband was angry because we took it personally. And then we realized, oh, he just. He's not figuring out how to prioritize, how to block out the noise. He needs some help figuring out that. That ladder.
- [56:56]
A
It's so interesting because I hadn't quite put two and two together until right now, but I realized that the way I have come to communicate with my kids. This is important. I want to be in conversation with you. It's been a while. Is I just send them the hand wave emoji and it's like a little bit like, hi and a little bit like, over here.
- [57:24]
B
Remember me?
- [57:26]
A
And it's so funny because I hadn't really thought about how that's what that is. But in our family, that seems to be the language of. I mean, unless it's urgent and then it's like, I need to talk to you, Please, you know, call me. But it's a very funny thing. So you will all land on what works for you. But send in comments, pictures of the
- [57:47]
B
strategies, pictures of the dog. Never fail. Or videos never fail to get a response. I will have, like, not heard from a kid in three days. And then I send a picture of the dog and I get like, immediate response. But again, it's. It's easy to take it personally. It's not personal. They're very busy. They're managing a lot of stuff. Some of it's great, some of it's hard. If they're not having a great time, they may be embarrassed to be in touch with you because they feel like they're supposed to be having the time of their lives and they're not. So try to remove your personal feelings as much as possible. As much as it feels personal, it's not. Or most of the time, it's not. So come up with other strategies that don't center yourself in the. In the situation.
- [58:34]
A
As always, Vanessa, it's been a pleasure. Learned so much.
- [58:38]
B
It's fun. I mean, you're going to be my font of wisdom when I am truly empty nesting. You're already, like, planning it for me. Sometimes we have conversations and Cara's like, oh, yes. Okay, so in two years, you're my do over.
- [58:52]
A
Vanessa. Let's just call a spade as bade.
- [58:56]
B
I'm going to be. I think I'm going to be so good. And I'm going to screw it all up too. Too. So there you go. But send us what works for you. Tell us podcast awkward.com we want to hear because so many of you out there have done it, have lived it, have so much wisdom to share, and we want to share it with everybody else. Thank you so much for listening. You can email us with questions, feedback, or Episode requests@podcast.com if you want to
- [59:24]
A
learn more about what we do to make this, this whole stage of life less awkward for everyone involved. Our parent membership, our school health ed curriculum, our keynote talks, and more are
- [59:37]
B
all@lessawkward.com and if you want products that make puberty so much more comfortable, visit myumla.com.
- [59:53]
A
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