A (2:55)

Right. And it gets into the contrast between equity and equality, which is another sort of set of terms that gets thrown around and the way we actually got to this podcast episode, Cara, because this is a. This is a little bit meta and abstract for us in Some ways, but it's actually grounded in our K through three school based curriculum. We have a lesson on fairness and how do we include people and what is it like to have a classroom that is fair? And we were like, oh, we've never done an episode on this, even though it is the biggest complaint that kids utter.

B (3:37)

So also, it's a state standard.

A (3:40)

It is a state standard. That's very interesting. People.

B (3:44)

Fascinating. Probably don't know that many states require that schools actually educate their students on the concepts of fairness related to health and wellness. This is so interesting.

A (4:00)

So let's dive in. Let's dive in with the definition we actually use in our curriculum and then we're going to just spend a little time in what the research tells us. Kids understanding of fairness is because it's actually different than you might imagine and that previous assumptions and theories had espoused. So in the curriculum we talk about how fairness can mean making sure everyone gets the same thing. And it can also mean everyone gets what they need. And you can't always have both kinds of fairness. So you have to start by choosing what keeps everyone safe, respected and included.

B (4:41)

Okay, so that was what I was trying to get at when I said there are two conflicting kinds of correct. And I, I want to just describe for a second the image that we have in our curriculum. It's a first grade lesson. And so we actually, interestingly, our curriculum does not really have any visual or digital content that's required for the littlest kids in order to get them off of screens. But if you are an educator who would like supplemental visuals, there's this visual that we offer up in this lesson and it's got two pictures side by side. And I want you to picture there's a baseball field and there's baseball game going on in the background. And then there's a fence. And there's a group of three people who are standing on the other side of the fence, like sort of in the near frame. And those three people are trying to peer over the fence in order to watch the game. And these are the two images that are side by side on the left. The three people are standing on the ground. One is very tall and it is easy for them to see over the fence. One is medium height and it's kind of okay to see over the fence, but it's like a little bit of a struggle. And one of them is way too small to see over the fence. On the right side is the exact same image, but here all three can see over the fence. Because the littlest one is standing on a big carton or box, the middle sized one is standing on a small carton or box, and the tallest one doesn't have to stand on anything. And the point of the image is both sides depict fairness, right? On the left side, it's fair that everyone is standing on the same ground. And so like, you see what you see, and on the right side it's fair because everyone is being given a chance to see over the fence. That's fairness.

A (6:53)

And some people would argue that the one where everyone's standing on the ground is not fairness, it's equality.

B (7:00)

Right?

A (7:01)

They have the equal treatment, but it is not fair because they can't all see over the fence. So there are different interpretations. Whereas equity would be seen as the image where everyone has a different size box so they can all see over the fence. And these are complicated, very, very big concepts. And yet the research tells us this, kids as little as 12 months old start to be crazy to develop a sense of fairness. And by three years old, it's becoming even more developed. And it used to be believed, you know, that it wasn't until like 8 years old. But at 8 years old, it just becomes more sophisticated.

B (7:42)

But years earlier, there's more conflict around it.

A (7:47)

You know, they have more language to express their unhappiness with the situation.

B (7:53)

Correct.

A (7:54)

And so there's a really wonderful Scientific American article on the development of fairness. Right? It looks at how kids develop their fairness. And we could imagine that kids understand fairness in terms of like, distribution of things like Halloween candy. There have been experiments done on Halloween candy, right? Everybody gets the same amount of Halloween candy for it to be fair. If they don't get the same amount, it's unfair. Right? But what the research shows is that kids are looking at respect, that they measure fairness. And this is a study on children's understanding of fairness, that they want equal respect, not necessarily equal distribution. So it's really, really interesting, which gets

B (8:43)

a little complicated with Halloween candy, but because, right, like there's sort of the added layer of what is, what is good for you or what is all that.

A (8:52)

But right, but also like somebody, somebody was late to start trick or treating ca helping their grandmother and they couldn't trick or treat and they came an hour later and other people had a chance to collect more candy. Getting away from the health of your family.

B (9:05)

Or somebody's mother was Cara and they were convinced.

A (9:09)

Or they have an almond raisin and they're not healthy, they're an almond, they live in a neighborhood full of almond moms, and there was no candy in their neighborhood, but their friend's neighborhood had parents who actually gave out candy. So again, there's like all these different extenuating circumstances. And what's really important for us to understand as adults is kids are so aware of all these permutations. They have so much empathy and sophistication and analysis in their spongy, developing brains that we don't always give them credit for. And so part of this conversation is about giving kids credit for how interested and interesting they can be in a conversation around fairness and sort of thinking through, developing understanding over the course of their aging up.

B (9:59)

And despite the way we teed up this episode, I think it's very important to recognize that we've all kind of moved as a society, certainly in the space of health and wellness and research, to preferring one version of the fairness definition over the other. I mean, I think the equity piece, it deserves a nod, a tip. Fairness is really about treating people according to what they need. I think one of the best examples of this is if you need glasses and you can't see without them, is it fair for two people to need to drive a car or see something far away or whatever it is with the one who needs glasses, not wearing the glasses? If you look at the sort of most raw definition of fairness, everything needs to be equal. So it's not fair for someone to wear glasses. So therefore, that's kneecapping. And I think there's like a very clear understanding now that fairness begins with meeting people's basic needs. And this is where there's a lot of debate like, what is a basic need? And, you know, what is giving someone? I mean, you could really go down quite a political rabbit hole here on a whole number of issues when you start getting into those weeds. And we're not going to do that. But I think by and large, the world has embraced a definition of fairness that basically says you give people what they need, and then all things are starting from an equal place. If someone needs to be in a wheelchair and that's how they're going to compete in a marathon, it is not fair to ask them to run or not compete at all if they want to be a part of the marathon. You meet them where they are, you give them what they need, and then they compete. And as a society, no matter how hard things seem to get, when people get into it and debate things and all that, I think we can all feel proud that we have moved as a society to this place. Of recognizing that you give people what they need in order to establish the starting point for fairness. We'll be right back, but first, a word from our sponsors. I have had photo books on the top of my to do list for years, literally, and it bums me out that I cannot seem to find the time to do this because there is literally nothing I enjoy more than looking back at old photos of my kids. So it's why I'm thrilled to have discovered Journey Print. Journeyprint is easy to use. It takes seconds to auto arrange photos into a beautiful book, and it'll even add location maps and dates. Plus, journeyprint uses sustainably sourced paper and for every order placed, they plant a tree. The Photobook has moved from a slightly dreaded task that will take so much time to quick and easy. Now the thing that's going to eat up my time is flipping through all those incredible memories. If you're looking to have a memento of your family's amazing moments, or maybe some of their awkward ones, give Journeyprint a try. Go to JourneyApp.com podcast Awkward and use the code Awkward to get 30% off your next purchase. That's journey spelled J O U r n I app.com podcast Awkward and use the code Awkward I've always been about quality over quantity, especially in my closet. If it's not well made and versatile, it's just not worth it to me. That's why I love Quince. Quince uses premium fabrics like 100% European and linen, 100% silk and organic cotton poplin. They're all perfect for the changing seasons, but they're also built to hold up. And Quince works directly with safe ethical factories, cutting out the middlemen. So you're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores just for quality clothing. I just got the Italian leather dual compartment toiletry bag in Cognac and I cannot wait to use it as I hit the road for my spring speaking travels right now. Go to quince.com awkward for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to q U-I-N-C-E.com awkward for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com awkward predator badlands now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney here. You're not the predator, you're the prey. Prey. Pray, pray, pray, pray, pray. Critics are saying it's epic, stunning and breathtaking. Many have come here, none have survived. Predator Badlands now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. Rated PG 13.

A (15:07)

So I'm super tempted to get political, but I will not. I think you have a generous interpretation of how much people have accepted the need for fairness. I will refrain. I will say my hope is, is that, and my hope in the community,

B (15:24)

that's a fair correction.

A (15:26)

And I love your optimism and your belief in humanity. And I feel super proud of the schools, for instance, who use our curriculum, who espouse these values and teaching these things. And it is hopeful that so many states require this concept in the curriculum. Right. That is a reflection of the values of that. That state. So I just think we're in a tricky moment where sometimes, often it feels like maybe not everybody's on that same train. Having said that, we can lead with what we hope to see in the world in the future. And we are so lucky to get to participate in educating young people on things like this and like, giving them a chance to build those skills, even if it's not necessarily happening in their homes. So I want to start, Carl, with some of the situations that come up in school. So you gave, like, really, to our minds, obvious places where it's like, yes, of course someone should get to wear glasses. Yes, of course someone in a wheelchair should get to compete. Yes, of course we should have a ramp to our. The entrance to our building. Right. All sorts of ways.

B (16:34)

That's how I can have a Pollyanna view of everything. Vanessa?

A (16:37)

Well, and like, you know, that's. That stuff is easy, but there are a lot of situations where it's complicated and kids, this sort of sense of fairness gets mired in really kind of specific realities of, I don't know, two kids using a table, working on projects together, and one kid is taking up more space and the other kid has less space. And it feels unfair to the kid who has less space. So there's an opportunity for an educator to have a conversation about what is fair.

B (17:16)

Right. So I want to dive into that a little bit. So here's the scenario. Shared space at school. One kid who's very kinetic, maybe, and who is always moving around to meet their needs. We've defined fairness as sort of needing to meet needs to meet their needs. An educator might just allow them that more space. Right. And yet you're right, it isn't necessarily fair to the kid who is cramped onto the, you know, leftmost 10% of the work table with their, whatever, gigantic mural art project. And they, you know, they may feel that they cannot get done what they need to get done.

A (18:00)

Or fast forward it to older kids where you've got the group project.

B (18:06)

Oh, yes.

A (18:07)

And one person is super organized and gets their stuff done. And other people in the group project are slow to get their work done. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they had an exam they were studying for and didn't get to their part of the project. Maybe they're just assuming somebody else is going to do it. Right. This is a big thing amongst not even just older kids, even later grade school and middle school kids. When there's a group project, it doesn't feel fair. So how do we empower? Let's start with the shared workspace. How do we empower the kid who's hovering by the edge of the work table while the other kid is, like, spread out like manifest destiny on the work table? Let's start with that one. And then we'll move to the group project one.

B (18:54)

Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing that we ought to do as the adults in the room is to remind kids that the statement it's not fair, while perhaps true, is not always that helpful. So it's okay to express a feeling of lack of fairness and to title something. But this is an example of a time where I'm a big believer in why, as you know, Vanessa. And it's so funny because the more I read, especially the psychology literature, they're kind of two camps of people, and one camp is big believers and why, and one camp are actually not. But here, you know, one of the most important things that we can do for kids of all ages is teach them to follow that statement with the why. So help start the communication. Open the communication by explaining, maybe it's to the adult, maybe it's to the other kid. Why there's a feeling of frustration. So it's not fair because I know you need all this space. That's great for you, but I need more space than I have, and this doesn't feel right for me.

A (20:18)

Right. We're swapped into an I feel statement, which is what we use in the curriculum. I feel like I don't have enough space and that the table, the use of the table isn't equal or fair. Can we figure out a way so I can get the space I need for my project now? That's great. Except. What, Kara?

B (20:41)

I don't know what A lot of

A (20:43)

kids are uncomfortable like, oh, that basic fact. It's hard for them.

B (20:50)

Well, It's Conflict Resolution 101 is what it is. It's the willingness to say something that might actually create a little bit of conflict so you can get through it. It's really very, very hard. It's hard for adults to say what they need. I mean, the biggest mantra that I give my college age kids is ask for what you need. This is the theme of the year.

A (21:16)

As in our family, I once had a flight attendant who I'd gotten a seltzer her first pass through. And then she came back through. It must have been a long flight because she came back through with more beverages. And I was like, oh, I'll just have water. And she said, didn't you get seltzer last time? I said, yeah, I did. But like, I don't know, I felt funny asking for more seltzer. And she goes, honey, close mouths, do not get fed. Ask for what you want. And I was like, oh, my God, I love that. I love that. And so. And I'm hardly like a shrinking violet. I'm not, you know, I'm pretty good at asking for what I want or what I need. But kids have different temperaments. They come from different households. Different schools have different allowances for kids to have conflict in the classroom. Right. Some schools are like, great, let's play it all out. And other schools are like, no, guys, we got to move on. And so there's all these circumstances. But building that skill early, this is. Right. We're teaching this in first grade in our curriculum allows them to develop it and to get better at it over time. And for kids to take on board the conflict resolution between themselves as opposed to always having to get an adult involved.

B (22:36)

Okay, so that is an example that I would put in the relatively easy category because it's one of sort of physical space and. Right.

A (22:47)

It's a real estate conversation.

B (22:49)

It is. Also, there's kind of an obvious, like, this is not hard.

A (22:56)

It's visual. It's visual.

B (22:58)

It's not just everyone can see what's going on.

A (23:00)

Right.

B (23:01)

How about the one where there's a kid who needs more time to finish their work and let's, you know, this extends all the way up through the highest levels of education.

A (23:15)

Yeah. I mean, this is a really tricky one. As someone who has some kids that I'm raising who need more time and other kids who don't. And I think the problem with this question of who gets what time and do people have extra time, whether it's official or unofficial, is that some people have taken advantage of the System and are using what was set up in the system for kids who truly need extra time in order to get the work done. And the people who've taken advantage have done it for, you know, standardized testing for college or whatever it is. And it's given it a bad rap for the kids who, like, really can't get the work done in the allotted time. And so then there's all sorts of questions of fairness all over the place. Right, Cara? It's like, should everyone get the same amount of time? Well, I personally think there are some kids who need more time and some kids who don't. Okay, that's one question of fairness. Then another question of fairness. Well, what do you do with the people who are gaming the system and are getting extra time even though they don't actually, quote, need it? How do you decide on that? That's another question of fairness. And then as an educator who's standing in front of a room with 25 kids all at different points in their learning journeys, like, how do you manage not just one kid versus another, but a whole group of 25 kids? And how do you meet all their needs? Right. It's. It's seemingly simple, but very complicated question.

B (24:49)

It is very complicated. And to those of you who are waiting for an answer, I have some bad news, which is we don't have an answer for this one. At least I don't, because it is so highly personalized and it changes over time. But here are some things, some sort of guideposts that we can offer on this very tricky question of fairness. So the first is frame this in your own mind in that equity frame. Use that lens. Right? So, you know, Vanessa, as you described, the reason that this concept took flight in the first place was really to level the playing field. Or actually, more specifically, it was to offer glasses to the people who couldn't see. It was literally a way to help people whose brains were wired a certain way honor the fact that their brains were wired that way and allow them to find success in school, meaning an ability to achieve and to maintain. Love of learning, like the origin seed of all of this was really good, and it was really a hope to make school and the educational system more workable for everyone. That's sort of where I would start it in terms of how to help kids manage the feelings they have around it. That's very interesting to me. I've had many conversations with many kids over the last three decades as this needle has moved a lot, and kids have a lot of different feelings about extra time. Their feelings differ among one another, and their feelings often differ from the adults around them. There's a large swath of kids who don't want to be given extra time because it is visible. You might have to take a test in a different area, or everyone else is asked to leave and you are not, and that can feel vulnerable to them. There are kids who have learning differences that are not solved by extra time, but they still have learning differences. And those kids feel sometimes frustrated because there's a really good solution. For people who need extra time, it's extra time. But for them, given their learning difference, there isn't as ready a solution. You know, it's a really, really charged topic. But what I would say is that in our curriculum, when we talk about whether it's in the lesson about fairness or the lesson about mutual respect or the lesson about boundaries, we cover this topic from lots of different perspectives. And the idea behind it, and this is the idea that I think we should be reinforcing to kids of all ages, is that we want to respect other people. We want to be able to recognize that our needs and other people's needs are not going to be the same. And in an elementary school classroom where some kids need more time to finish their work than others, there is language that can be used that is supportive of the kids who need the more time and supportive of the kids who don't. And there's a reframing of what the goal is to help kids through that thinking. The goal is to learn something, to master a skill, to feel accomplished. And what we want to do, especially in early education, is to make kids feel good about reaching those goals so that they feel motivated and propelled and capable of when they go to reach the next educational goals. Because, Vanessa, we're growing up. Well, we're not growing up. We've already grown up. Our kids are growing up, especially Gen Alpha, in a world that is dominated by AI. And we have to make learning as enjoyable and achievable and as exciting as possible. And we're going to have to figure out answers to these questions in new ways now that there is AI, which can do a lot of the research and the learning and the work for them. And if the goal is love of learning and exploration and figuring out how to get to solution, I think then that will dictate how educators and parents and all sorts of trusted adults navigate when one person needs accommodation.

A (29:29)

Right? And the. In the older kids situation, where people are gaming the system and our kids say, well, they're gaming the System, why can't I? It's not fair. Why can't I game the system? For example, then you go back to your values. You go back to your values of like, hey, we don't take resources we don't need. We take the resources we need. We ask for the resources we need, but we don't hoard resources. We don't take things we don't need. That's not the values of our family, of our community. Whoever's having that conversation. And that's a many, many, many, many, many parted conversation. Right. You're going to have this question over and over about how it's not fair someone else is allowed to do something, is doing something that sort of is tricky, if not downright yucky. And you have to go back to your values and just say, like, that's not our values. We make sure that people get what they need. And in this case, you don't need it. Sure. Would it give you a little extra comfort? Okay, so this is a way to have of this conversation. You're all going to have different conversations in your own homes. But think about what your values are. Think about what messaging you're giving to kids. And this gets us to the group project conversation where it gets muddier.

B (30:53)

One quick thing about values, because I just want to highlight that it's such an important point. And as you were speaking, I was flashing back to the beginning of COVID and I was thinking about bad behavior on the part of adults with respect to masks. And people were hoarding masks. And then what did the government do in response? They made an announcement that no one needed masks unless they worked in healthcare because what they thought they were doing was preserving the mask supply for people who worked in healthcare. And what they ended up doing was muddying the waters around. Exactly. The conversation that you're talking about, which is really what we should have been talking about, was we don't take what we don't need. And there was such fear and panic. And the people who believed in masks, I was one of them. I still am. I think respiratory protection is very important. I come from healthcare. But that was the conversation we need to have. Exactly. The conversation that you're talking about that happens in a second grade classroom was the conversation we need to have. And we couldn't do it. The government couldn't do, our society couldn't do it. So we've got a ways to go still. And I'm so proud of schools that are educating kids to have these hard conversations because they're hard right and also

A (32:25)

to think about why a kid in a classroom setting feels the need to hoard supplies or snacks or whatever it is. Right? Often that behavior comes from somewhere. Is this a kid who's struggling with food insecurity? Is this a kid who doesn't have what they need at home? Maybe they don't have the school supplies they need. Maybe they don't have any art supplies to use when they get home. So with kids looking at them and saying, oh, what a selfish kid, or, oh, that kid is so unfair. Often with kids, it's like this is coming from somewhere. And all kids are good and they have learned behaviors, and they are taught by the situations in which they grow up, either from deprivation or other sets of values. And so rather than judge a kid for some seemingly selfish or hoarding behavior, I think it really behooves us to look at a kid and think, hmm, why does this kid feel like they need all the markers right now? What is it for them that feels like it's not safe to just take a few markers and give some markers away? And I think there's lots of great language around, around that. So I want to talk about the group project, because those of us with older kids hear complaints about group projects endlessly. Because it's not fair. It's not fair. There's a ton of collaborative work that gets done, certainly in middle school and high school, 100% in college, Ton of collaborative work. And I think it's wonderful and amazing. It's also really complicated because there are always people who do a lot of the work. There are always people who don't do their fair share of the work. And then there's people who are kind of somewhere in the middle, and kids come home and complain, ugh, I've done everything. Or, ugh, the person in my group is like, hasn't done what they're supposed to do. And this is where the conflict. It's not fair, right? This is where the conflict resolution skills really come in. Because a kid is a decision point at that moment, right? Do I address this unfairness with my team members or member? Am I at the point where I need to call in adult help to address this unfairness? And how do I know? How do I decide which way I'm gonna go?

B (34:46)

We'll be right back. But first, a word from our sponsors. I wanna. Before we analyze it, I want to throw in one more sort of group of kids in that subgroup. You said the ones who do the majority of the work. So the ones who just don't pull their weight. There's a third group in there, and that's the group that likes doing a lot of the work, takes on shoulders a lot of the work, and then complains about it.

A (35:21)

Yes, well, they should start there often sometimes because they don't trust the quality of the work that's going to be done by the other people.

B (35:29)

It's anticipatory takeover.

A (35:31)

Right?

B (35:32)

It's like. Or anti. I don't even know what to call it. We'll. We'll brand it at some point.

A (35:35)

No, no, I like anticipatory takeover.

B (35:37)

You know, it's like. And we all know those kids, and one of the two of us might have been that kid when we were in. Maybe both of us were that kid when we were in. Which is not a great quality. I'm just calling myself out. It's not a great quality. It's.

A (35:52)

Again, where is the behavior coming from? It's becoming. From a concern about grades, a desire to make sure work gets done at the level that one would hope for. The problem is it doesn't give other people a chance to help pull their weight.

B (36:10)

That's exactly why I label it as not a great quality. I'm not trying to, like, throw people under the bus, but I will lead this cha cha line here. Like, this is. This was me as a kid. And there is sort of not just an arrogance to it, but also a profound unfairness to other people. Because there are other people who go to different drummers and have a lot to contribute, and if they don't fit in your very, like, restrictive way of doing things, then they cannot shine. And, you know, I will say I thought I got better and better at this. You have been probably the greatest teacher to me about how to shed the final vestiges of this, because when we wrote a book together, you were really good about communicating clearly. When I was being really aggressive about how I wanted to get our group project done and here's how today is

A (37:15)

going to go, that was me. And, you know, I think there are moments where some people take the lead and some people don't. You had more experience writing a book. You'd written a book before. Like, there was a lot for me to learn. So it's not always.

B (37:29)

And yet.

A (37:31)

And yet sometimes it feels disenfranchising and disempowering if somebody.

B (37:36)

That's right.

A (37:37)

But you also. I mean, I proved that I was going to pull my weight and I was going to do my share. I think kids often have the experience where they're like, let's wait and see. And then their groupmates don't. So the advice I have given kids is when they complain, when they get the group divisions before it ever starts. My advice is always, hey, give this person a chance. Make sure you're all super clear on what your jobs are and what your responsibilities are. Because sometimes things fall apart when just things aren't clear. And if you notice that things aren't happening on the timeline you want, that's an opportunity to have a conversation in a non accusatory way. But just say like, hey, what's going on? This is due in three days. I noticed you haven't started it. Do you have any questions? Can I help at all? Do you have a sense of when you're going to get going? Right. Those are some. But I'm an adult. I'm almost 50 years old. I have decades of experience having hard conversations in collaborative settings. Middle schoolers don't have a lot of experience having those conversations.

B (38:48)

I mean, I just want to just throw in the voice of the classic kid who falls into the camp that you're describing and say, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom. You don't understand. I know exactly how this is going to go. Fine. I'm going to ask them to participate. I'm going to give them three days notice, all the things and they're still not going to show up and do it. And sometimes they're wrong and sometimes in fairness they're right.

A (39:21)

Right. So then it becomes, is it time to talk to the teacher and just say, hey, our group is struggling a little bit for everyone to get their stuff done or not everyone's participating. And that's a situation where different teachers are going to respond to that differently. So on the one hand, I'm on board with that because it is self advocacy, like anything that is a self advocacy skill building opportunity.

B (39:46)

Yes.

A (39:47)

The issue is doing it in a way that's not like tattletale and like throwing someone under the bus. So there's ways to do it in sort of more general ways. There's a way to give a teacher a heads up that things are like not going as the teacher might have hoped. It's really hard when the group is all judged as a collective and they get one grade and one person is not pulling their weight. And so sort of checking in on whether a teacher has an awareness that different folks are pulling their weights. Some teachers are going to be like, hey, let's talk about it. And some teachers are going to say, I don't want to hear it, work it out.

B (40:23)

Yeah. I mean, this is where the. I think some of the best advice that I've gathered over the years from people who are far more knowledgeable in this realm than I am boils down to this is life. This is life.

A (40:39)

Life is one big group project.

B (40:41)

It is. You're going to be in a workplace where there are all sorts of different personalities and learning styles and communication styles. You might be in a family or in a marriage or in a. And so to that end, this is life. And the more. I mean, what you don't necessarily want to say to all kids, but you want to remember inside your own brain is it's really more important than mastering whatever the academic thing is. It's figuring out the interpersonal dynamics so that you can communicate clearly and move the ball down the field.

A (41:21)

And some kids are like the one who has one tenth of the workspace and the other kid has 90% of the desk, and it's really hard for that kid with a sliver of workspace to speak up. Those are the exact kids who need the skill building of speaking up. Now, here's what's interesting, Cara, is when we shift the focus to family and we think about siblings, there are some kids who are able in a family to speak up, who are not able in other settings. Right. It's comfortable, it's familiar, it's a trusting environment. Some kids aren't great at speaking up in any settings. And some kids, the sense of unfairness comes out sort of exclusively and not constructively. So when we think about how we treat different siblings, different kids in a family need different stuff. Right. Fairness in a family, again, is not equality. And I'll give you one example, and then we can talk about how to manage it, which is when my daughter was 13 and was allowed to get on Instagram, she was the age her brothers were when they got on Instagram. 13. I said to her, you know what? I'd like you to wait a year, because the research is telling us girls most vulnerable ages are between 11 and 13, and the risk for mental health issues and body image issues are higher. And if we delay a year, I would feel more comfortable. And we had a back and forth about it. And was she pissed? Yes. Did she understand why I was doing it? Yes. And she knew it wasn't, quote, it wasn't equal. But if we think about fairness, and she could have said, and she probably did say, this is unfair. But if we think about fairness in terms of what people need, this was my decision about what she needed in this moment, she needed to wait.

B (43:15)

So yes, this is sort of. You do the best with the data that you have available at the moment. Right. And this is tricky. This is tricky. I was going to point to the fairness in the home with an allergic child, which I think is an easier example than social media. So I'm going to dodge your social media question, replace it.

A (43:38)

I mean, there was no, there was no follow up to that. It's just an example of like, sometimes you got to make a hard call as a parent and it doesn't feel fair to your kid, but you feel like it is the right call decision for that kid. So allergies are great examples.

B (43:51)

So I get this all the time. One kid has a significant food allergy, others or maybe the parents don't. What's. It's not even what's fair. What's the right thing to do? Should everyone not eat the foods that the allergic child can't eat because that's more fair and also safer that it's not in the house? Or, or is this life and are these foods out in the world? And does the allergic child need to learn some resilience around making choices? By the way, I'm trying to present this as evenly as I can because I actually don't think there's a right answer to this either.

A (44:33)

Right. I have lots of friends whose kids have celiac disease, for example, and some of them have chosen to have no gluten in their homes whatsoever to make it as safe as possible for the kid with celiac. Others have made other choices where they have some there and some not. I have a kid with a peanut allergy. I've always had peanut butter in my house because I love peanut butter cups and two of my kids will not eat. They don't like peanut butter, not because they are allergic, but because they're afraid on behalf of their brother. So they avoid it. Right. So then they're sort of like, that's right. Self limiting fairness. We were with a kid recently whose family's allergies and I was serving something that he could have and they couldn't. He was like so psyched that I was serving something. They were perfectly safe. I had permission to be serving it, but he was so, he was so excited. So that gets back to your point, Cara, about the why. Right. So if you're going to do something, make a choice for your family that feels unfair to certain kids, you gotta explain why you're doing it. Also, you have to be open to feedback. Right. Fairness doesn't end with an executive decision. Fairness requires you to be an ongoing conversation with kids so that at the very least they can express why it feels unfair to them. Even if you're not going to change your mind in that moment, they should have the ability to analyze and unpack and dissect their reaction when something feels unfair.

B (46:08)

That's right. So, Vanessa, we've talked about fairness across lots of different categories. We've talked about it in schools, we've talked about it in homes. We've talked about it related to health. We've talked about it related to learning styles or temperament. We've talked about it with respect to sort of every general scenario we can across lots of different ages. What I think is so important to land on as we sort of reflect on why in the world states would make this a state standard and why they would prioritize the formal teaching of this, I think we can distill the conversation down to a comment that you made mid point about values. And here's where I would land with it. Fairness is the starting point for a values based conversation. It is not enmeshed with values. It's actually really objective. In the same way that when we teach about sex, there's just information to give and then you can go from there informed into a values based conversation. Fairness is the same. And what we know is that my very idealistic view at the top will become reality when we all start to recognize the importance of learning about the concept of fairness. And it doesn't mean it's going to be cut and dry. It doesn't mean that we're all going to have the same interpretation at the end of the day. But what it does mean is that there is a body of information related to fairness that is not connected to values. And there is a very important layer that each parent and trusted adult can add on top that is connected to their values. And so I think where I would like to land the conversation is a reminder that so many of the things that we talk about on this podcast, so many of the things that we educate about in our curriculum have both elements. And when it comes to fairness, there's like a body of really basic factual information that kids need to have. And until they have that, you can't get into the nitty gritty of what's really fair or not according to your values. You do need that foundation. A house needs a foundation so that you can build whatever style you want to build on top. And I think the same is true when it comes to conversations around fairness.

A (48:52)

Thanks Cara thank you Vanessa. Thank you so much for listening. You can email us with questions, feedback or Episode requests@podcast.com if you want to

B (49:07)

learn more about what we do to make this whole stage of life less awkward for everyone involved. Our parent membership, our school health ed curriculum, our keynote talks, and more are

A (49:20)

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