The Hidden Science of Teen Motivation

Summary

Podcast Summary:
This Is So Awkward
Episode: The Hidden Science of Teen Motivation
Date: March 10, 2026
Hosts: Dr. Cara Natterson & Vanessa Kroll Bennett
Guest: Rosalind Wiseman (author of "Queen Bees & Wannabes" and "Masterminds & Wingmen")

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Main Theme

This insightful episode dives deep into the science—and the lived reality—of teen motivation. Leveraging wisdom from acclaimed author and educator Rosalind Wiseman, the hosts examine what actually motivates young people, common myths about Gen Z, how adults can more authentically connect, issues around power, identity, and the ever-evolving journey of finding purpose as a teen. The conversation is full of practical frameworks, poignant stories, and actionable advice for parents, educators, and anyone working with (or growing up as) young people.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening: Authenticity, Failure, and Earning Trust

[03:24 - 06:00]

• Rosalind Wiseman's approach to bios: She intentionally presents her failures and challenges when introducing herself to young people in order to avoid the "performative, inauthentic" adult introductions teens tune out.
• Rosalind:

  “They really want to know if you can handle yourself … that means that I go out and I earn their trust.” (04:36)

• Young people respond best when adults admit what they don’t know and are open to dialogue.

2. Queen Bees, Power, and Lifelong Impact

[07:38 - 10:49]

• Lessons about power, relational boundaries, and handling frustration, learned in childhood and adolescence, deeply shape adult behavior.
• Rosalind:

  “We take them with us into our adulthood. It’s why people will say: ‘Everyone started acting like they were 12 in that meeting.’” (08:10)

• Adults struggle to admit gaps in knowledge to teens, which blocks authentic relationships.
• Authenticity: “Owning your own failures, fallibility — super important.” (11:51, Cara)

3. Deep Dive: Boys, Masculinity, and Motivational Blind Spots

[14:42 - 21:19]

• Masterminds & Wingmen explored boyhood, but culture wasn’t ready to confront the entrenched tropes and stereotypes about boys.
• Rosalind:

  “[With] girls … media were so easy to bite on … with boys, … we are much more invested in seeing boys in myopic ways.” (17:00)

• Common myth: “Girls are Machiavellianly evil, boys just punch it out and it’s over.” In truth, boys often feel paralyzed in the face of power imbalances; silence is learned.
• Many kindness campaigns and anti-bullying programs come off as patronizing and superficial, failing to engage youth authentically.

4. The ‘Invisible Operating System’ of Adolescence

[23:18 - 27:53]

• Adults unconsciously reenact patterns from adolescence (“invisible operating system”)—competition, fear of rejection, etc.—in work and family life.
• Recognizing this helps leaders, parents, and teachers better understand group dynamics and reactions in tense settings.
• Connections to recent educational thought (Chris Baum, "The Magic of Middle School"): Fitting in is a basic human urge, not a flaw, and continues into adulthood.

5. Myths and Realities about Gen Z

[27:53 - 34:01]

• Common stereotypes: “Gen Z is lazy and entitled.”
• These assumptions often come from a lack of genuine, curious conversation, or communicating accusations instead of questions.
• Education has become a transactional system, often stifling curiosity and purpose. Many students reach prestigious colleges burned out and apathetic because they have “played the game,” only to realize the real payoff is missing.
• Rosalind:

  “The educational system often is a system that refuses to learn ... robs children of curiosity, of purpose, of being able to take risks …” (29:48)

• Socioeconomic privilege impacts opportunities and the narrative around “entitlement,” with lower-income students taking on significant risks for education.

6. What Actually Motivates Teens: Purpose, Partnership, Risks

[37:24 - 42:33]

• Story from Lawrenceville School musical: Boys taking musical risks because adults valued, supported, and challenged them—partnership, not hierarchy, created buy-in and growth.
• Rosalind:

  “They were building something larger than themselves, but it was a risk and they were doing it together.” (40:35)

• Key motivational levers:
  • Collegial relationships with adults
  • High standards AND high support
  • Opportunities to take “the right kind of risk”
  • Feeling seen as contributors beyond college applications

7. Communicating With Teens: Messengers, Status, Agency

[45:10 - 47:30]

• Parents are important, but not always the best primary messengers. Kids need respected figures (coaches, teachers) in their community to validate diverse achievements.
• Example: Sports coaches valuing arts/theater, visibly supporting peer activities, have major downstream motivational effects.
• Cara:

  “If you do that from the right kind of messenger, ... it’s so much more important than listening to us.” (47:22)

8. Avoiding Toxic Achievement and the Dangers of “One-Thing” Identity

[48:21 - 50:17]

• Pushing kids to be defined by a single pursuit leads to fragility, anxiety, and persistent silence about struggles—especially for boys when adults are heavily invested in their achievements.
• Rosalind:

  “You are not one thing. For better and for worse. You are not one thing.” (48:21)

• Achievement-focused environments easily breed silence—and complicity—in the face of abusive power.

9. How to Foster Purpose…Without Dictating It

[51:17 - 53:36]

• Parents often fear letting kids “give up” too soon or, conversely, force perseverance. The process is always “messy, a windy road,” and the meaning of purpose evolves over a lifetime.
• Model ongoing reflection:

  “My purpose has shifted … I’m not asking you to come up with an answer … Part of our family is that we are in an ongoing pursuit of what that means for us.” (51:17)

• Kids need room to experiment; otherwise, they comply outwardly or disengage inwardly.

10. Reframing Adult Mindsets: Protector, Enforcer, Mentor

[55:39 - 59:18]

• Highlight from co-authored work with David Yeager:
  • Protector: High support, low expectations
  • Enforcer: High expectations, low support
  • Mentor: Both high support and high expectations—this is the gold standard for motivating young people.
• Rosalind applies this mindset universally now, asking, “What does high support/high expectations look like in this dynamic?”
• Covid school shifts: Over-corrected between protector and enforcer mindsets, leading to student “whiplash.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On adult self-awareness:

  “One of the most important things about [generative authority] is that you admit when you don’t know something.” (10:49 – Rosalind)

• On boys and silence:

  “Young people learn this kind of silence in the face of abusive power, especially for boys … we’ve given them no choice but to say, ‘It’s fine.’” (00:16 / 48:21 – Rosalind)

• On changing the system:

  “The educational system often is a system that refuses to learn.” (29:48 – Rosalind)

• On collaboration & risk:

  “They were building something that was larger than themselves, but it was a risk and they were doing it together.” (40:35 – Rosalind)

• On family and purpose:

  “We are in an ongoing pursuit of what that means for us.” (51:17 – Rosalind)

• On mindset for motivation:

  “Mentor mindset: high expectations and high support… that, for me, was so profoundly important to my thinking.” (55:39 – Rosalind)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:24 – Rosalind on bios and authenticity with young people
• 08:10 – Life lessons from adolescence continuing into adulthood
• 17:00 – Boys, stereotypes, and learned silence
• 23:18 – The “invisible operating system” and adult workplace behavior
• 27:53 – Stereotypes about Gen Z, transactional education critique
• 37:24 – Lawrenceville musical story: Collaboration and risk
• 45:10 – Who are the right messengers for motivation?
• 48:21 – Dangers of single-focus ("one thing") identity
• 51:17 – Helping children discover (not define) purpose
• 55:39 – Protector/enforcer/mentor mindsets and their impact

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Wrap-Up: Actionable Takeaways

• Teens require both high support and high expectations—adults must earn their trust and model ongoing growth.
• Stereotypes about youth (especially boys and Gen Z) are limiting; genuine, curious dialogue is needed instead.
• Schools and families should build communities where many kinds of achievement are valued out loud by trusted messengers.
• Allow kids’ sense of purpose to evolve and resist the urge to productize or prematurely define it.
• Adults’ own adolescent experiences shape how they lead and teach—be aware of these patterns to avoid projecting them onto today's youth.

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This engaging episode is a must-listen for parents, educators, and teens themselves seeking to break cycles of silence, perfectionism, and miscommunication and build trust, motivation, and honest connection.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Young people learn this kind of silence in the face of abusive power, especially for boys. They won't tell us when they're suffering, especially if we're invested in their achievement in that particular thing. If we're wondering why boys are suffering in silence or say, like, it's fine when we ask them how things are going, one of the reasons is because we've given them no choice but to say it's fine.

[B]

Hi, Vanessa.

[C]

Hi, Kara.

[B]

Vanessa. Today we have Rosalind Wiseman on the pod. And you may know her from her New York Times bestsellers and really, I mean, canonic books. I think that's the word. Canonical books, Queen Bees and Wannabes, which was the inspiration for the film and entertainment behemoth Mean Girls and then Masterminds and Wingmen, which is really the boy corollary to Queen Bees. And she is here today to talk to us not just about her journey, but also sort of about where she has landed, which is in this really interesting land of motivation and how we motivate kids and adults, peers. I mean, really, like, what's at the core of getting people to participate and engage and connect.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, she travels all over the world working with institutions, corporations, schools, you name it. She's a senior leadership consultant for the State Department's Office for Overseas Schools. And she contributed to David Yeager's book, wonderful book, 10 to 25, a groundbreaking approach to leading the next generation and making your own life easier. So she's been on this journey of really deeply understanding young people through those books that you mentioned, Cara, and then taking that knowledge and her own experience and shifting it towards this really fascinating, open hearted, open minded, thoughtful approach to how do we motivate young people? How do we think about young people? How are we aware of the young person inside of us who sometimes, you know, gets angry or emotional or locks it down or loses their voice. So it's a really wide ranging, fascinating conversation. We both admire her so much, her work, her leadership in this space. And it was like kind of a different conversation from anyone we've had. So if you're figuring out how to help you, the young person in your life, find meaning and purpose, that's where the conversation ends up. And it's pretty. It's pretty deep. Hi, Roslyn.

[A]

Hi, Vanessa. Hi, Kara.

[C]

Kara and I are like, we're having. We have, like, little happy grins on our faces because we do. We have been wanting to have you on, and it's really an honor to have you here. Your work, in so many ways has informed and inspired so much of our work, and it's really a privilege to get to spend this time with you. I want to start with the bio you use for young people because it was so fascinating. I'm not going to read the whole thing because I want to save the time for asking you questions, but in your bio that you use for young people, right, because you speak to people all over the globe, literally, your bio talks about your credentials, but it also goes into your failures, your disappointments and your challenges. And I want to start. I want to ground this conversation in why do you present yourself that way to young people? What is the goal? What are you trying to achieve? And what can we all learn from that approach?

[A]

Well, I think that young people are used to performative, inauthentic ways of introducing adults to them, and I think they're so used to it that as soon as they hear it, they tune out. That's the first thing. Second thing is that in talking to young people about how to introduce myself, because I always ask young people about everything I do, is that one of the things I got in feedback from them is, especially if I'm doing presentations to larger groups of young people, is that they said to me very clearly that if an adult from their community goes out and introduces me with my credentials, that they don't listen. Like from the very beginning, they start to disengage and I have to earn their trust and their respect. And we can go into that later. But. But because I know people feel like, well, you should just have respect when you go out. And I actually disagree with that. And young people, they really want to know if you can handle yourself when you go out on stage. And that means that I go out and I earn my. I earn the trust. I earn that I know what I'm talking about and that I'm open to dialogue with them also. I am. And I achieve things because of my challenges and my failures and my disappointments. And I think that's a really important thing to integrate when you're talking about or even presenting yourself as somebody who's an authority on anything.

[B]

Right. And your sort of entree onto the world stage, really, where people first came to know you and Your work was with Queen Bees and Wannabes, which if that's not sort of about the importance of authenticity or sort of, if that doesn't send that message loud and clear, I don't know what does. And for listeners who don't know what Queen Bees and Wannabes is, I'm going to give my one liner. Then maybe you can give a lot more, Roz. I mean, it was truly an iconic piece of writing about teen girls that became the seedling that informed the film Mean Girls. And it was really more than a seedling. It's really the entire through line of the messaging in that movie. It explains the sort of sociology and anthropology and development of teen girls. Is that a fair way of framing it? Do you do it better?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No, I cannot do it better.

[A]

I love that car.

[C]

Was there a question there or are you just describing the book?

[B]

It's fair. I'm getting there. It's Monday morning. Okay, so here's the question that follows. So that was your starting point, and that was 20. How many years?

[A]

So many years.

[B]

20.

[C]

So many years ago. 23 years ago.

[B]

20. So many years ago.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, sort of looking back through the retrospective scope, and we're going to stop a couple of places along your journey before we get to the current day. What do you want young people to take away from sort of the intersection of what Vanessa described in the way you describe yourself in your own biography when you speak to them, and that first piece of work, which essentially was explaining girl behavior and girl culture.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, I think the messaging for me is not just for the girls. It's also for all young people, and it's for adults. Because one thing that's absolutely clear to me in the 20 plus, I guess it is 23 years since I wrote that book, is that we don't put these things behind us at all. And I think in many ways our understanding of or the lessons we learn as young people when there is an abuse of power or we're dealing with relationships and there are power dynamics within those relationships and we have to make decisions about our boundaries, what we want, what we don't want, how we communicate that to the people that are in our group. And our assessment, like, our constant assessment of, like, what is the cost benefit ratio analysis of making these decisions, that when we start to learn them as children, not just teenagers, but as children, and then they become really important to our development as teenagers, and then we take them with us into our adulthood. And it's why so many people will say to me, you Know, I was in this meeting and everybody started acting like they were 12 or why are my relationships, in my intimate relationships, why do I lose my voice? Like when? Why, how do I. How was I taught to handle expressing my frustration and my anger to other people? So that's one thing I want people to understand. Second is that I want people to understand that what young people go through is incredibly important. And whatever it manifests itself, no matter what we think about how they are seeing things or presenting themselves to them, it is incredibly important and we have to take it seriously. And if we want to reach them and we want to teach them about what we think is important, as far as how we manage ourselves or our rights and responsibilities with other people, we have to do it in their context. And then the third thing for adults is that I really want adults to understand. And honestly, I have a really hard, I mean, I'm not very successful with this, but I certainly have never given up is that adults have a really, really hard time admitting to young people that they don't know things because they think. I guess adults feel like if they admit that, then they've lost their authority. And I know that one of the ways in which you gain actual, what I would call generative authority, like that you are using your authority for the benefit of others and that young people will believe in you as somebody that they can go to. Is that one of the most important things about that is that you admit when you don't know something, right?

[B]

I mean, in medicine that's the most important thing to seek in a doctor. Let me just tell you right now. I don't know, is it oversimplifying to say that what you do in your own self description before you stand up in front of a crowd, which is to sort of show your battle scars and be authentic, is what you are trying to teach both kids and adults to do? Is that too basic a description?

[A]

I think that's a no. Again, I think that's a great way to think about it. And you know, truly the hardest thing I do is to go in front of especially a high school presentation. I mean, my God, like, I have done some pretty stressful things in my life and I continue to do them with like, you know, very, you know, with people of very fancy titles and high stakes situations, very, very high stake situations. And nothing, nothing makes me as like the feeling of dread, apprehension and fear before I speak to a group of high school people. There's nothing quite like.

[C]

But on the flip side, there's nothing better than when you connect with them, like when you get them and when they are like with you and engaged and participating and nodding along and sort of like raising their hands and asking you questions, you're like, this is the best feeling ever. I mean, it's true with our own children, like when you actually have those moments of connection with your own teens or young adults. But for sure, when you're in front of an auditorium full of high schoolers, you're like, okay, I can like finish this week successfully because I just got a bunch of high schoolers to like interact with me and in an authentic way. So I think authenticity, super important. Gaining their respect, not just expecting respect from them is super important. Owning your own failures, fallibility, super important. Right. And we're going to come back to all this as we continue the conversation, but before we move on to kind of like how do we truly motivate young people, I want to spend a little time on the other sort of seminal book that you wrote, which is about boys and it's called Masterminds and Wingmen. It's sort of the companion of queen bees and wannabes. And like we are in a very serious cultural moment about boys and what's happening to boys, the radicalization of boys, the body image pressure of boys, the sort of like substance marketing of zins and caffeine to boys. Right. Like, you name it. The impact of porn on boys identities and sexual behaviors. Right. Like in every corner of their lives, boys are being just inundated with concerning content and it's impacting their identities and behavior in ways that we as folks who work with young people really don't want to see happening. Because we love boys and they are deeply feeling, caring, loving human beings who deserve to be messaged that instead of. So what's your sort of thinking, Roz, now these many years later since you wrote that book? Right. You. You get as what Carr likes to call the retro retrospective scope. Sorry to say that really slowly. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's a hard word.

[C]

It is. It's also not a like real word. It's a made up word.

[A]

It's still a word. Hey, I make up words all the time, so.

[C]

But like we. I feel like I know 67 was like the dictionary word of the year. Butler Webster Merriam, Dictionary word of the year but like I feel like one year car will get retrospective.

[B]

The campaign begins now.

[C]

So what, what message we've got the some of the messaging from queen bees and wannabes. What's the messaging you wanna put out there right now about what's going on with boys based on your work and understanding of them.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

I mean, I will just chime in and say you were so far ahead of your time with that book. And you know, when I wrote Decoding Boys, Masterminds and Wingmen was like dog eared like crazy. It was already years old. When did that come out? In 2015.

[A]

It first came out. It first came out in 24. Yeah, in 15.

[B]

2015. I think it took that book to start to. It's like, you know, when they're repaving a road and the first thing they have to do is they have to rip up the whole existing road and then they got to put like that dirt layer down. That has to be good. Like that's what that book was. The rest of the road could not have been there without that reframe. And you know, we have a lot more to cover. But I think what you say sort of collectively between these two books is essentially, this is not a zero sum game. This is not that one group or the other group deserve to have voice, find voice. It's like, no, all of these individuals have voices. Those voices look and sound different, but they are all informed by each other's voices. And it is incumbent upon us to open our eyes and instead of narrating for them what's happening to them, listen to them. I mean, that's really what you're an anthropologist. It's like really what you do, right? You just watch and you listen and you learn. It's amazing. So now can we, can we go forward a step? Right, so you paved the road. You like dug up the road and then you put the thing. And now like here, what you're doing today is so beyond. It's really fascinating and I would love to. For you to talk about it a little bit in terms of sort of how you've gone from this chaotic, loud Noisy space of parenting to government work, corporate work, educational work. And then we're going to get to your work with David Yeager in 10 to 25. But, like, take us on that journey with you.

[A]

Yeah, well, thank you for saying that about masterminds. I really appreciate that. I said a few minutes ago that it was really clear to me about the lesson. It became clear to me as I was watching and participating in this really complicated world of. Of parenting advice and also sitting in on a lot of meetings at schools and youth organizations or whatever. And I. What really hit me was, like, specifically how conflicts were being played out as adults that where they were carrying with them their experiences in adolescence. And so I came up with this term that I use to when I'm working with adults, which is called the invisible operating system. And it's a system system that when you're a young person, especially in mid adolescence, where these experiences, you know, you are physiologically so connected to the experience of being accepted or rejected. And so you take those lessons and they're, you know, like, basically in your nervous system. And so as you get older, in some ways, things quiet down, right? They're not so obvious to you about how, you know, the pain of rejection or the thrill of being accepted. It's not so obvious to you. But when. You know when. But there are moments right, as you get older, like, for example, why are young people in their early 20s, like, why is it so difficult when they graduate from college, if they graduate from college, that feeling of, where do I belong? And for parents, where do I belong? Or where does my child belong? Or when you join a group, you know, a company, like, the feeling of, do I matter? Am I contributing? And by being recognized, is somebody taking over? Is someone taking credit for what I do? Are they bullying me? Are they all these questions, and then all of a sudden, you, without even realizing it, you revert back to what I call your visible operating system. And then you're acting really the way you learned when you were in mid adolescence. And at the same time, there's sort of a cognitive disconnect of, wait, what's happening to me right now? Why am I acting like this? So for me, because I do a lot of crisis work with very intense, like, leadership crisis work that people are taking significant, extreme positions about that. It's, for me, a really helpful lens to be not the only lens I have, but a lens with which I look at how's the table operating right now? I bring it with me many other leadership mindsets and experience, but I have sat around a lot of tables where people are very angry at each other. And so it enables me, you know, because I do, I watch, I learn and I apply for the future.

[C]

It's so funny because there's a middle school educator we had on the podcast, Chris Baum, who wrote a book called the Magic of Middle School. Actually, we're all going to be at the same conference later this week.

[A]

Oh cool.

[C]

I'll introduce you guys. And he does the flip of what you've just described, Roslyn, where he is trying to help adults, educators, parents, you know, trusted adults, understand why middle schoolers act the way they act. Why do they conform, why do they seem inauthentic? Why are they obsessed with fitting in? And the group. And he describes it like this. Imagine that you've moved to a new city and you have a new job and you have a new apartment and you are trying to figure out how to make it work. Of course you're going to find the person around the water cooler who everybody listens to. Of course you're going to shop where everyone else in your office shops. Of course you're going to get your haircut, right? And so you guys do complimentary love it processes. It's such a helpful way and such a non judgmental way of getting at the really, really complicated, emotional, intense dynamics that happen amongst people based on who they were many, many, many years ago when it was sort of written, written in their pathways early on. And so with that lens, with the lack of judgment and the sort of like open mindedness and open heartedness, let's start because we're going to be talking about, you know, Gen Z and sort of younger millennials. What do we get wrong about them? Right? There's so many stereotypes, top three derogatory ways of categorizing them in the workplace, in the family. And it's just not constructive or helpful as we try to live as a society, as community, as a workplace, as a family. So what are the is Car's point? What are like the stereotypes? What do we get wrong about them?

[A]

I think this is first of all, I think it's a two way street that we have assumptions about each other. But the stereotype of course that they have that comes to me the most often is that they're lazy and they're entitled. What I think about that is that we, whenever people have an assumption about a group of people, I lean into that moment and say, well, two things. One is we don't ask them and we don't get into it. We rarely get into conversations with people who are putting that label on as why they're coming across the way they are in a way that is curious, not accusatory and judgmental. Right. Because I could say, like, why are you being like this? And so that's not a question at all. That's an accusation. So I think we need to be really mindful of how we're communicating when we have moments with people of that generation of, like, how it's coming across to us and. And that we truly want to know what they're thinking about it and what are we getting wrong? Right. Like, I. I think that's a really important thing. I mean, I do that with anybody. Of, like, all right, this is what I'm seeing, and what am I getting wrong? Because I can I even say sometimes, like, I'm. I'm telling myself a story right now, and that's my story, which could easily be wrong. So I don't want to make assumptions about you. I'd rather just know. So can you tell me now? Okay, that's ideal reality. I certainly have had experiences with people of that generation where I get so frustrated that it's really hard for me to walk the walk. And I hired somebody who was extremely informal, didn't recognize the gravity of the work, basically had not done his homework, was a young man in his 20s, and was just very much like, hey, what's up? This is great. And I'm like, I'm about to go into a super intense meeting at the State Department, like, the United States State Department. I can't be having this conversation with you right now.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Like, I. I was like, this is not working for me, but it's on me to be able to hold boundaries, communicate in a way that, you know, treats him with dignity, and says, this is what I need. And then it's on that person to be able to respond to me in a way, can we work together? So I just. I think it's really easy for us to be able to understandably, sometimes react of, like, what. What is going on with them. They come across as laziness, entitled. So the other part of this, though, that I think is really important for us to acknowledge, and it depends on the socioeconomic level of the people that we're working with of this generation, is that we've sold them this package about education, which is inherently, if not, I mean, a strong way of saying it is incredibly hypocritical, a nicer, softer way to say that it is a contradiction that we have really talked about education in some ways as like, this aspirational thing where they're going to become like these critical thinkers that are ready for the next wave of work and contributing and all that. And then really, education is a transaction. And it's a transaction that is not based often on what is the best way to learn for a young person. And for all these values that we talk about, it's not. The educational system often is a system that refuses to learn. And so it is powerful that we have continued to refuse to acknowledge the inherent contradictions of an educational system that actually robs children of curiosity, of purpose, of being able to take risks, the right kind of risks, punishes them when they ask questions about it, puts labels on them that they're being disrespectful when they don't understand why they're doing something, which in actuality is really stupid and counterproductive. So we don't acknowledge it. And so now we have kids who, for example, I don't know if you've had this experience, but I have plenty of friends, colleagues who are professors at very prestigious schools where those children, those young people have worked so hard to get into those schools. They played the game, right? They played the game and they won. And now they're a really fancy school, you know, that their parents can talk about. And they get there and they're apathetic and they don't want to contribute. And my. My professor colleagues are like, what is going on? Well, I think that's a really important thing to get really curious about.

[B]

And I'll just add on, we could go down a rabbit hole. I don't want to, but just a shout out to the podcast AC I don't know if you guys listen to Acquired. It's a very, very interesting podcast about entrepreneurship and the origin stories of these big, like every company you've ever bought something from, basically. And in the episode that I'm listening to right now, which is the Trader Joe's episode, which is amazing, oh, my God, they talk about the origin shirts. I mean, all of it. It's like, it's a fabulous story. Anyone who likes storytelling and entrepreneurship and all the things, this is great podcast, but they tell the story of the GI Bill and the data of how higher education shifted so dramatically post GI Bill from, you know, higher education being very rarefied to very quickly. Upwards of 60% of young people graduating from high school were suddenly going to college. And this never happened before. And it became a very important thing. I mean, think Rosalind this is exactly to your point. Like, this thing happened. We had this system in place, and now suddenly we had to tell ourselves the story of what it meant or put a value on it. And I think we do this in narrative in general and stereotyping of individuals or institutions. It's a very interesting way that we set up our society. Is any of it true? Is the pigeonholing. You know, lazy and entitled are the words that you use several times to describe the stereotypes that are often tossed around, particularly about Gen Z. Sometimes stereotypes come from a little.

[A]

Yeah, there's a little bit of truth. Yeah, sure, sometimes they do. But I also think that's a socioeconomic issue too, because there's lots of young people that are coming from families where they have to work their tushies off all the time and take care of siblings and have no idea what you're talking about with lazy and entitled. And I mean, they're like, what that. What are you talking about? Like, it's so far afield for them. I have the incredible, like, I mean, I look back on, like, how did this happen? But I, I have the incredible privilege of being able to work with kids of all different strata. And so that's what actually is the most clear to me because there's absolutely learned incompetence and learned helplessness in wealthy communities and wealthy families and parenting and being so afraid that your child is going to lose out. And so you do things for them that you should not and don't hold them accountable. And it's much harder for you to. Because you think you cat. You catastrophize, like anything that happens to your child. So, you know, everybody has challenges and everybody. There are patterns. There are patterns of challenges within sort of these general contexts. But I really, I mean, I think for. So, for lower socioeconomic students in this, in this country, the United States, that if they're going to take on, no matter, you know, for the most part, wherever they go, the mountain of debt to be able to go to university, the mountain of debt. I think we also need to acknowledge the risks that they're doing to make that decision and also that they've never had the kind of flexibility of choices and transactional education to them. I don't fault them in any way for this. Is like, I, I'm going to go to get this kind of education and I'm. And I expect to be able to get things if I'm going to take this risk and if.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I mean, that's a whole different thing than a child whose parents can write a check every year for an $80,000 education.

[C]

Yeah. And this is a important companion to the interview we did with Jeff Salingo about dream school and kind of new trends in higher education. So it's worth, if you haven't listened to that episode, listening to that as a companion to this conversation with Rosalind, because families are starting to make different decisions. They are starting to do those calculations. Kids are starting to make different choices, whether it's about going to a quote unquote, less prestigious school, right? Not a top tier school because of affordability, or not going to a four year college, going to a community college or going to technical school. So I think all of that, there is a shifting tide, on top of which we have the work of folks like Jenny Wallace. Never enough toxic achievement culture, right? Like, what is the toll that young people are paying who are in this strata, who are working so, so hard to their own wellness, the detriment of their own wellness and health and safety? It's like there are these poles emerging in our culture. Roslyn I want to think about the positives. I want to think about what you've seen, what you've learned, what curiosity has gained you in understanding what these kids are doing great at, what they, what are they seeking, what meaning do they want? What is jazzing them and getting them up in the morning and getting them out, right? Like if we flip it, what are you noticing about, about young people?

[A]

So a couple of things come to mind. And we were talking about elite schools and I want to give a shout out to. It was last week, I'd gone on this international seven country tour of various professional developments and keynotes. And then I came back and the last stop on this, on this tour was at a very prestigious school that has a long history called Lawrenceville. And you know, if you go on its website, it's like, you know, it sort of Hogwarts and it's just every kind of, you know, what you would picture as a elite boarding school. The reason that I'm talking about this is because I was there for Parents Weekend and it coordinated or coincided with when they were doing their musical, their fall musical. So these children have been on campus for approximately eight weeks and they decided to tackle limits. And I have actually never been to limits and I never get to do things like this. So I went back on campus for their, their musical. And the reason why I'm telling you this is because I sat, I came in like 15 minutes late. So it's all dark and I didn't want to be, you know, obtrusive and, like, you know, excuse me. Excuse me. So I sat at the very back next to the soundboard, and there was a woman next to me who I did not know. I noticed two things immediately. One is, this was the best. And no disrespect to all of the schools that I've been to that have amazing musical programs. Like, okay, you all, like, settle down. But I walked in, and this was. I'm gonna say it, and I'm gonna get into so much trouble with these other kids, but it really was the best musical I've ever seen. Definitely contender for, like, professional level grade. And what was so amazing to me, and the reason I'm telling the story is because of two things. It was an incredible partnership between the faculty and the students. Like, really collegial partnership. The other thing was that Le Mis has a lot of male characters in it, and so there was this large swath of boys that caught up and opened their mouths, and every single one of them, I was like, what? They were beautiful, every voice, and they weren't afraid. And now in high schools, well, for a long time, we've had a hard time with boys wanting to participate in musicals and theater. And, like, every kind of kid guy was out there performing his heart out. And then the other thing that was so beautiful was that I noticed sitting next to the soundboard is that this woman next to me was, like, jumping up and down, or at one minute she was crying, or next she was like. I was like, who is this woman?

[C]

It was the choral teacher. It was a voice teacher.

[A]

And I swear to God, I'd never met her before. She just started, and I. It was, like, the most wonderful introduction to any relationship. We were hugging each other by the end of the music musical. But truly, I mean, I know it's just the partnership, the beauty, the value in art and theater and music, and seeing a variety of young people getting up and singing and making themselves vulnerable in front of their peers, it was just incredible.

[B]

So what do you think motivates kids? These kids, other kids. If you had to, like, bottle that and sort of figure out what was at the root of that, what do you think it is?

[A]

I think it's that adults saw them as people that could contribute. They made them work incredibly hard. The choral teacher told me that she was working with some of those boys multiple hours, you know, that they. They had just committed to it and that they were just working with her really hard. And this isn't something Necessarily that these boys are going to put on their college resumes or, you know, or their applications. So they were working with a common purpose. It was the right kind of risk to, for them, which meant it was edgy, but it was edgy in the right way. And they had adults that let them, that were going to hold them accountable. Right, hold them accountable. High standards, very high standards. But they were giving them the support that they needed. And I really believe it was the partnership, was the collegiality of the adults with the students, that they were working on something hard, they had a very short amount of time to do it. And that was also a way for them to feel as they were working together as part of the group. They were building something that was larger than themselves, but it was a risk and they were doing it together. And I think all of those things enabled them to sort of see, like, what's possible for them. And so I think for, like, larger. Because, you know, unfortunately, there are very few children in our country who have the, have the opportunities that, like, going to a school like this allows. But there's lots of people in this country, no matter how bad we think. And I, you know, I can be really. I, as I just said a few minutes ago, like, I get very frustrated at the system in which I've dedicated my career to. And within that, of course, there are adults who do the same thing. And when that happens, to answer your question, like, super directly, that's when young people more than meet us halfway. I honestly feel like young people are waiting for us often to, like, get our acts together and see them and ask them the right question and have true, honest conversations about the complexity of the world. And once we do that, they're like, ah, I've been waiting here the whole time.

[B]

We'll be right back. But first, a word from our sponsors. Disney wants to know, are you ready?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

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[A]

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[C]

I think that's such an important point. Like, it's funny that you use this example because I have a kid who I desperately want to be in a musical. He's a performer and he won't do it because it's, like, not cool at his school. And I, Cara, as well as other members of my inner circle have been like, you can't force him. And, like, all I want to do is force him, because I'm like, he will say, see how amazing it is, Right? Like, to your point, Roslyn, somehow some boy in some group of friends decided, you know what? I'm going to do the music. Let's do the musical, right? And then other people are like, yeah, let's do the musical. And then they got to be part of this incredible thing and learn new things, learn new skills and abilities and be part of this new community, right? And all of these things. And it's like, what is that lever that gets pulled that sort of allows for this positive cascade of experimentation, vulnerability, openness, all of those things. And I do think sometimes it comes from adults saying, you know what? I get it. Like, I totally get it. I haven't gotten it till now, but I get it now. Like, let's have a different kind of conversation and let's see if we can't come to, like, a better place or a new place, whatever it is. And I'm wondering, Rosalind, how do we best communicate with young people so that we get to that point? Right? Like, we've talked about owning our failures. We've talked about authenticity. But, like, what are. When you think about the. The best strategies and the things they're seeking, right, they're seeking respect, they are seeking agency, they are seeking, like, status in our eyes. They care about all of that. How do we communicate with them in a way that's both authentic and offers up those kinds of connections for them?

[A]

Yeah. So I actually think this is what's really hard for parents, is that we can be good supporting messengers around that. But if we are the primary messengers of those messages, they're not going to listen. That's really right. So, like, for example, one of the things that I look at when I'm looking at a functioning school is, does the high social status sports coaches value other things in the school and just don't talk even not only lip service, but actually, like, take opportunities to say, for example, the lacrosse coach, the football coach, the I don't care what kind of coach, where they understand I'm not taking away the commitment. No matter how good a team is, the commitment it takes to be able to, you know, run a team and do, you know, reach whatever success that you would like to reach. But a coach, for example, of a high social status sport or any sport of Course, but especially the high social status sports, if they go to their people on their team and say, look, you know that I love football and I'm dedicated to it and I demand a tremendous amount from you. And I want you to know that I think trying out, I'm going to do everything I can. I know scheduling is hard, I know balancing things are hard. But I want you to really hear from me that if you do or do not, you know, try get into the musical or other things that are musical or theater or whatever, if you try out for those things, I want you to, and I value it. And even if you don't try out for it, I want you to know that I highly value those things. And so by the way, even if you're not involved in the musical, this whole team is going to go watch the opening night of the musical. And it's not, it's not a choice. It's, it's, we're all gonna go and because we value everyone in our community and we value their contributions. And when you hear that from the right kind of messenger. Absolutely. I hate to say it to the parents. Listening to this is so much more important than listening to us. Now your kid comes home and says, hey, the coach just said this to me. This is your moment to say, that is brilliant.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

I super respect that coach. My God, that is, that's the kind of person that I want in your life. That's your moment to say those kinds of things.

[B]

And I'm not trying to oversimplify this message either, but it sounds to me like you have experienced in your very high stakes work what seems to be when these foundations exist, those other conflicts do not or they're better. They're, they're more so much better, right?

[A]

Oh my gosh, they're so much better. Yeah, they're so much better.

[B]

This isn't about not burning out your kid in high school. This is about like the life training and building the repertoire of skills that translates into conflict resolution and maybe more happiness or self satisfaction and maybe deeper relationships. Like all these things seem to be interconnected. Right. We're just, we've lost the thread. If it's just about you have to do one thing pretty professionally when you're.

[A]

Oh my God, I hate that. I hate that. I say to students all the time, you are not one thing. You are not one thing for better and force. You are not one thing. I can't agree with you more about like the coach who has like the winning whatever team and you are committing a Lot of money or time to your child getting good at that one thing. And then it becomes, like you said in the very beginning, a zero sum game. And your child feels like their identity is tied to their. Not only their ability overall to do well on that one thing, but like the moment to moment of like, was practice good today? Was that one swing good today? Was that one this good today? Oh, no, it's not, oh, I'm worthless, I'm nothing. And it's not just about them. It's also about how they value other human beings in their community. So because it's like, oh, you're on the team. So this kind of, kind of toxic kind of stuff, then people that are on the team and being a part of that team, you're better than this is the message that gets to them is that we're better than everybody else or being on the. And the flip, which gets really dangerous, which you alluded to, is that when there is abuse of power in those teams, which there always are at some point and there's inevitable conflict, then young people learn for better and for worse and oftentimes frankly for worse in these kinds of group where everybody is like, oh my gosh, the school is the best in X, Y and Z. It doesn't have to be sports, but it's often with sports that, that really breeds this kind of silence in the face of abusive power that children will take with them for the rest of their lives. And for parents, especially for boys, they won't tell us when they're suffering because especially if we're invested in their achievement in that particular thing. So if we're wondering why boys are, are suffering in silence or say, like, it's fine when we ask them how things are going, one of the reasons is, is because we've given them no choice but to say it's fine.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I, I think about if we can open things up, if we can give them permission to say it's not fine, if we can broaden what they perceive to be their worth and their role in our communities, our families, our society. Rosalind, how do we help them find purpose? Like, the temptation is for us to sort of project purpose on onto them, as you heard me describing a few minutes ago. Right. My kid is really good at this. I really want him to do this. I want to like, force him to do it of not going to.

[A]

It's going be so hard.

[C]

Right? But like, we see these kids and we're like, we want your life to be filled with meaning and purpose. Right. It's purpose is motivating, purpose is nourishing. And yet it's like, how do we get them there? How do we foster and sort of shepherd them on a path without determining for them what that purpose and meaning could, could be?

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, I, I think it's important. The thing that comes up for me is when we talk about purpose is also this twin thing, which I hope this makes sense, which is that parents often don't want children to give up, which is totally understandable. We want children to have resilience, we want them to have tenacity, we don't want them to give up. And so, and there's two extremes in my experience with parents about this concept of giving up, and it's connected to purpose, is that we want our children to find purpose. They spend time on something and then we are faced inevitably with two, or we think we are with two kinds of extremes. One is, do we let children give up the first moment they really experience, like a challenge or a failure or whatever? And then the other is, is that we never let them give up. And as usual, I think there's some really important ways that we're looking for the middle like that we are saying to young people, we do want you to find purpose and it's going to be messy, it's a windy road. And frankly, it's not just a thing that you find as a teenager. Finding purpose is an ongoing pursuit. And something that gave you purpose at one particular time in your life is probably going to change. And this is, and frankly, this is the opportunity to say to your children about it as an adult. Remember I said in the very beginning that we don't need to know everything, but we're on the road with them. And so to be able to say, you know, my purpose has shifted as I've gone through my life and it's been a really important thing for me to think about in a consistent way, like what is my purpose and why? And so I'm not asking you to come up with an answer of what your purpose is now, I'm asking you. And part of what I believe about our family is that we are in an ongoing pursuit of what that means for us. And that through the process that we are self reflective, that we understand our responsibilities and contributions to the community and to ourselves. So the purpose is all fit within that. When they see that, when they see us and talk and we're talking about it, then it takes the pressure off of the way they hear it, which is, I have to decide what I want to do right now. And then they're going to shut down because who is going to be able to engage in that conversation? So I really want people to unders. Oh, the other part is they're just going to say, frankly, they're going to shut down and not talk to us or they are going to do something that they think pleases us but gets them farther away from trying to figure this out on their own.

[B]

I mean, also one would Hope that their 3 year old and their 13 year old and their 30 year old would have different senses of purpose like you don't want. The goal is not for them to not evolve their sense of purpose. So it is. How do we in the parent trusted adult category, how do we in the bigger general world sense allow for that to happen and foster that? And that's where I think you've really been the leader of the pack. I mean you've. That's where you're so far ahead of your time. And yet the world like, come on world, catch up. It's been a minute and she's like banging this drum and it's really what it's about. It's really what it's about.

[C]

Yeah. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So we could spend like another hour or 400 hours talking to you about all this. I think you've given us a lot of food for thought. I've certainly got some stuff to take home with me tonight and probably talk about at the dinner table with my kids. Like, namely, what is the most annoying thing I say to you that is actually not motivating at all. And I can only imagine what's going to come back at me. But I think this sort of willingness for us to model vulnerability in how we communicate and how we present ourselves to kids is a. Is a great start. Like, give me feedback. I want feedback. Even though I like totally don't want the feedback.

[A]

Yes, yes, don't. Well, I mean you can be, you know, we talk about authenticity and you can be authentically terrible. So.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Know when I say that.

[C]

Right. So the book is so good. It's so rich. The research is fantastic. The work you did with really practical sort of rubber meets the road exercises and thought pieces is really valuable. Talk about what you learned in sort of doing that work with him and why you feel like it's so valuable to have this out in the world.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you. Well, so basically what happened is, you know, I'm not somebody who works in universities. I don't do a lot of research with academic institutions, I do it tangentially if I do it. And so when David Yeager approached me and said, hey, I'm working on this book about young people and motivation, and, you know, I need help being able to figure out the concrete application of it, and so will you help me? And what was beautiful about it was he would consistently, as we were going through the process of. He was choosing of the many, many, many, many surveys that he wanted to put in the book and the research he wanted to put in the book, that he would say. He would call me and say, I found another thing that totally confirms, like, the stuff that you were saying, right? So that was cool. I have to say. That was great. But I think one of the best things about thought leadership is you take experiences that people have and you put it to words. You make it more clear to people. And in David's case, what was so good is that his understanding of the research, of how we got here, is, in my experience, second to none. And so when you have that and then you have my direct application of it together. And, you know, I've written parenting books before, so I have an understanding of, you know, what parents need when they're sitting at a. At a, you know, carpool and they've got 10 minutes and they have a book that they're listening to or reading. You know, how do we communicate? Now, David has four children himself, so he does understand this from parenting point of view. But the wording that he came up with, which, again, is like, in the language of psychology and. But he just refined it, in my mind is the protector mindset and the enforcer mindset. The protector mindset of having high support but low expectations for children, and the. On the other side, the enforcer mindset of having high expectations but low support, and that you really are going for a mentor mindset of high expectations and high support. That, for me, was so profoundly important to my thinking. I'll choose two ways. One is there's a million different ways in which social dynamics happen. So I cannot give a script for every single thing that happens to people.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I love scripts. I do them all the time. That there is a million different variations on the theme. And so for me in my work, to be able to say, what is the high expectations, high support that is needed right now is the way that I start now, pretty much any dynamic that I'm trying to analyze, if it's my own parenting, if it's the schools I'm working with, that's what I do, is I Ask myself, what is the high support and high expectations that is needed for this person, this organization, this group of teachers, this group of parents right now? So it's just an amazing foundation to think about. And then the second thing, because I work so much, as you said, with organizations and schools and corporations, is that you can see the enforcer mindset taking place in policies. We are right now in this country very much in an enforcer mindset mentality of thinking that we are giving high expectations, which is like, we just need to figure it out, independence, like this kind of stuff. But we're not going to give you the support to be able to do it. But we also just came from, in some ways, I mean, I think we are. We are in response to coming from a very protector mindset, which is we're going to give you all of these supports, but we're not going to hold you to high expectations. And I think that happened in Covid with education quite a bit that we were so worried about young people that we did not hold them to high expectations, but we gave them a lot of support, support. And that enabled them to not hold themselves accountable to what they needed.

[C]

Right?

[A]

And then we got, they got back to school and then all of a sudden we went right into, you got to catch up. You got to catch up. So we're going to hold you to high expectations. And so kids were like, what is happening? Right? They just felt pinball back and forth. So being able to understand the power of how those things manifest as an enforcer mindset or protector mindset, and me being able now to be able to share that with teachers and parents and leaders of organizations and say, look how this is impacting your organization or how is it, how is it impacting the way people have conflicts or how hierarchy is designed in this organization or in this school, in this corporation, how is this working? People just get it in a different way. And so that's, you know, of the many things that I was really, I was so proud to be a part of that project and I so respect his work. Those two things are for me, some of the biggest takeaways.

[C]

Such a helpful framing and it's a fabulous book for folks who haven't read it yet. It's very rich and eye opening and highly recommend it. Rosalind, thank you for coming on. It was such a joy. And come back and see us after your next world tour. We will be here eagerly awaiting the next conversation.

[A]

Oh, I love, love your questions and all the things you just. Thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you so much for listening. You can email us with questions, feedback or episode [e-mail] if you want to

[B]

learn more about what we do to make this whole stage of life less awkward for everyone involved. Our parent membership, our school dual health ed curriculum, our keynote talks and more are [e-mail] and if you want products

[C]

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