The Holderness Family on Letting Go (Kind Of)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Holderness Family on Letting Go (Kind Of)

Podcast: This Is So Awkward
Date: June 2, 2026
Hosts: Dr. Cara Natterson & Vanessa Kroll Bennett
Guests: Kim & Pen Holderness (The Holderness Family)
Theme: Navigating the messy, emotional, and hilarious process of letting go as kids leave for college, with insight, humor, and real-life stories from The Holderness Family.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett sit down with Kim and Pen Holderness, known for bringing humor to the chaos of family life, to discuss their experience sending their daughter off to college. The conversation delves into the emotional "letting go" process, the practicalities of preparation, evolving sibling and parent-child relationships, and the tension between staying connected while allowing true independence. Through laughter, candid stories, and even a few tears, the Holderness family shares valuable insights for parents navigating this rite of passage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Processing the Emotions of Letting Go

• Differing Parental Approaches

  • Kim: Pre-grieved the departure, deeply emotional, over-prepared physically and emotionally. "He didn't do the pre grieving, which I did... He processed it very efficiently, let's say. Whereas I had a different experience." (Kim, 04:23)
  • Pen: Processes emotions in real time, quickly recovers. Celebrates child’s progress and maintains a practical approach.
    "I am very sad right now, and then he gets sad, and then he processes that, and then he's done being sad." (Kim, 03:02)

• The Bond and “Soiling the Nest”

  • Explains the turbulent pre-departure period where mother and daughter clashed more than usual—a common phenomenon dubbed "soiling the nest."
    "That bond had to be…like, physically severed...they were finding a way to prepare for when it was going to happen." (Pen, 05:13)

• A Family Good-bye Moment

  • Emotional scenes of the whole family crying together the night before move-in, emphasizing the sibling bond.
    "Our son comes into the room…he is weeping…Lola walks in…and she's choked crying…So like the brother, sister bond, like they got to share that moment with us." (Pen, 05:55)

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2. Sibling Dynamics After Launch

• Shifting Focus to the Sibling Left at Home

  • Humorously admits to showering all hopes and aspirations on their son after his sister leaves:
    "We took all of our hopes and dreams and expectations and one person." (Pen, 07:35)

• Staying Connected

  • Lola initiates regular family FaceTimes and texts, rotating who she contacts.
    "She would, she kind of rotates who she FaceTimes on the way to class." (Kim, 07:48)

• Sibling Communication Challenges

  • Describes sons who are less communicative and even oblivious about celebrating their achievements:
    "He doesn't tell us when anything good happens to him...We found out on the last day of the season." (Pen, 10:38)

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3. How Much to Stay in Touch? The Reality vs. Expert Advice

• The Gretchen Rubin Dilemma

  • Discusses the suggestion (from guest Gretchen Rubin) to limit contact to once a week versus their real-life, more frequent check-ins.
    "Bestseller, 10 out of 10. Ignored it, drop, kicked it out of the room." (Kim, 14:52)

• Customizing Communication

  • Recognizes the need to adapt to the child’s temperament and family style:
    "You got to find your balance, and your balance is always changing. It's like a seesaw on a ball." (Dr. Jen, 15:53)

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4. The Realities of Dorm Living & Over-preparing

• Preparing (and Over-Preparing) for College

  • Kim describes the nesting-like preparation for the move—buying multiple options for everything and renting a larger car:
    "We sampled three different types of shower shoes...We had to rent a larger car to drive, like a Suburban to drive to her campus." (Pen, 20:16)

• Move-In Day Chaos

  • Overpacked, stressful move-in with two families in the dorm room, assembling furniture long after everyone else left.
    "Everyone in the entire dorm was moved in and gone. And I was like...assembling several things..." (Pen, 23:04)

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5. Practical Health Prep & The Meningitis B Vaccine Story

• The "Ask to Be Sure" Campaign

  • Shares how they almost missed the meningitis B vaccine and now advocate for parents to double-check all health requirements:
    "I thought she had had her meningitis vaccine...but meningitis B...I had no idea that there was a vaccination for that…" (Kim, 26:18)

• Public Health Realities of College Life

  • Hilarious but honest reflects on the squalor of dorms—"floor COVID" and the rampant spread of germs:
    "He said, mom, there was so much living on that floor." (Dr. Jen, 18:54)
    "Public health standpoint…infections spread really quickly and easily." (Dr. Jen, 29:09)

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6. Reintegration: Coming Home After College

• Re-entry Surprises

  • Adjusting to having an independent young adult back home; expectations collide with her newfound autonomy.
    "She came back a whole person. A whole new person. But I was still expecting, like, the girl who crawled into bed with us during thunderstorms...She was not that girl." (Kim, 38:36)

• Space, Boundaries, and Communication

  • The family dances around new household boundaries, including “donation bag wars” in the hallway, and learning to offer advice less directly.
    "She sees any type of unsolicited advice as criticism." (Pen, 37:51)
    "We had a really intentional conversation. Like, you're coming back in. You have to be respectful…" (Kim, 40:16)

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7. Ultimate Parenting Lessons: Letting Go and Hoping For 'You Were Right'

• Pen’s 3 Big Takeaways (repeated at opening and close):

  1. "We have to let them grow by letting them go." (Pen, 00:37, 44:35)
  2. "We got to do the best we can to keep them healthy and safe where they are." (Pen, 00:42, 44:44)
  3. "This is all really...them coming to us in five years and saying the three words we want to hear: You were right." (Pen, 00:58, 45:03)

• Learning to Hold Back

  • Parenting older teens means watching from the sidelines, offering guidance but mostly letting kids make their own (sometimes meandering) choices.
    "It's not my job...The hardest part is...the dance...help you advocate for yourself...but also, like, step off, like, get out of the way." (Kim, 45:24)

• Memorable Realization

  • Vanessa shares a “choir of angels” moment when her adult son expresses gratitude for parental boundaries.
    "Hey, Mom...I'm really grateful. Like, thank you..." (Vanessa, 42:30)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Emotional Goodbyes:
  "Oh my God, it was so beautiful. And they've remained friends and I feel very fortunate." (Pen, 06:39)

• On Packing for College:
  "Sorry. They asked me...if you guys live in the south, like, if there's a hurricane coming, everything's gone in the stores. Like, when girls are about to move off to college, it may as well be a hurricane." (Pen, 19:55)

• On Dorms:
  "Somehow they go out looking gorgeous...radiant skin and, like, a vision of health, but they're living in their own filth." (Vanessa, 17:37)

• On Parent-Child Advice:
  "...now we've raised a woman who sees any type of unsolicited advice as criticism." (Pen, 37:51)

• On Letting Go:
  "We have to let them grow by letting them go." (Pen, 00:37, 44:35)

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• Letting Go & Emotional Differences: 03:02 – 06:39
• Siblings Adapting: 07:00 – 09:58
• Parent Communication Realities: 14:04 – 15:53
• Packing & Move-In Madness: 19:39 – 23:28
• Health Checks & Meningitis B Story: 25:02 – 31:14
• Re-entry After First Year: 34:32 – 40:16
• Life Lessons & Parenting Wisdom: 44:35 – 48:13
• Quotes of Gratitude & Growth: 42:30, 45:03

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Tone & Style

• Relatable & Honest: The Holderness family’s candor about messy emotions, humor in stress, and marital negotiations is matched by the hosts’ warmth and laughter.
• Supportive and Affirming: The hosts consistently validate both the emotional messiness and the practical challenges, emphasizing that there’s no "perfect" way to parent through this transition.
• Science-Informed: Especially in the health discussions, the episode offers clear, evidence-based explanations, especially about vaccines and infectious disease risks.

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Final Takeaway

Letting go of kids as they leave for college is awkward, funny, heartbreaking, and joyful—often all at once. There is no single "right way" to handle the transition; embracing the messiness, maintaining healthy communication, and preparing for both expected and unexpected challenges are all part of the journey. Yelling "You were right!" may take years—but in the end, most parents get there, often with a little humor, a lot of love, and maybe more than a few boxes of surplus shower shoes.

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Next Episode Teaser: The Holderness family will return to discuss ADHD, marital closet wars, and more parenting adventures!

Transcript

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

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[Pen Holderness]

So, number one, we have to let them grow by letting them go.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yes.

[Pen Holderness]

And that's number one. Number two, we gotta do the best we can to keep them healthy and safe where they are. And number three, this is all really like reaching to our end result, which is them coming to us in five years and saying the three words we want to hear.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

You were right.

[Pen Holderness]

You.

[Vanessa]

I mean, Cara, this is a very exciting moment in our lives. Truly. The people who might, like, make me laugh most, like, on a daily basis. The people other than me, much more than you. No offense. The people who fill our lives with the reality and hilarity and messiness of middle age, raising kids, going through menopause, marriage. Kim and Pen Holderness are here with us. Welcome to you both.

[Kim Holderness]

Well, thank you so much for having us. We're so excited to be here.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah, they missed like, we. We just had 10 minutes of just laughing that you probably won't see on this podcast.

[Vanessa]

But yeah, I've gotten so good at not using profanity on the actual podcast, so I had to get it all out before we ever pressed record.

[Pen Holderness]

Yep.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, Cara was very well behaved. It's a strategy. It's a strategy. So you two, sometimes in song, sometimes in a little sketch comedy, sometimes just in your own humanity, like, cover it all. Sometimes I feel like you're inside my brain and I'm like, oh, my God, how did you know? We just had this conversation in our house. But one of the biggies you covered this past year was letting go of your daughter to go to college. I love how I said letting go. Like, it's not sending off, it's not launching. It was like letting go by like the tips of your gel manicure. And everybody handles it differently. Right. Within a marriage and different families. Can you talk about. I want each of you to describe how the other one, I want you to characterize the overall vibe of how the other one. Let's go. Of or sent or launched your daughter.

[Kim Holderness]

I love this. Yeah, I love. And I'm very curious what Pen is going to say. I'll go first. I, I, I love this challenge. Pen does such a good job of processing emotions in real time, and it is the thing I'm most jealous of. Like, he can say, I am very sad right now, and then he gets sad, and then he processes that, and then he's done being sad. So he didn't do the pre grieving, which I did. He was just like, yeah, this is a big deal. This is what we worked for. This is what we did. Here we go. Drop. And then there was a moment, the last hug. He's walking towards me in the parking lot of the dorm. We were both, like, hiccuping, crying, and then he was done. He was, he always, like, she did a really good job of keeping in touch with us via FaceTime or text. And he celebrated. He was, he was so. He's like, there's so much to celebrate. He was so excited for her. You know, she got to stay up late and make decisions that maybe a mom shouldn't know about. And he was, he loved every minute of it. And of course he missed her. Of course he did. But he processed it very efficiently, let's say. Whereas I had a different experience.

[Vanessa]

All right, Penn, go.

[Pen Holderness]

You know, the bond between a. A mother and. And her daughter is, Is something I'll never be able to equal. I think that starts in the womb, you know, and, and they have always been very close. And so when that bond had to be, like, in some ways, like, physically severed, like, distance had to be created. It got interesting the last few weeks before Lola left. Like, it seemed like the two of them were. Were. Can I say that, like, you guys were kind of at each other a little bit. And I learned that there's a term for this that Vanessa would use a different word when we were recording. It's like, maybe soiling. Dirtying the nest.

[Vanessa]

Soiling the nest. Yes. And I know exactly what word you imagine me using. It's happening in my head right now.

[Kim Holderness]

Y.

[Pen Holderness]

And I'm only telling the story because in the end, it was so beautiful because the two of these women had this, like, chemical whatever bond that I could never be a part of that was so strong that they were finding a way to prepare for when it was going to happen. So that probably was one example of us processing it differently. I do think that, like, everything that Kim was feeling continued to sort of trickle out of her after she, after Lola left. What's the Leanne Morgan?

[Kim Holderness]

I took to the bed.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah, she uses a term of taking to the bed when her, when her son was getting married. So Kim like took to the bed

[Kim Holderness]

like an old Victorian lady.

[Vanessa]

Like the fainting couch. Take advantage of the fainting couch.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

The only other thing I'll say that we like, we shared a couple of like live processing moments. One of them was the one that she talked about. The other one, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, maybe on this planet, was the night before we left to drive her back. Our son comes into the room, our 15 year old son, and he is weeping. Like choke weeping. He's like, I'm so, I'm so, like, I'm so sorry. Like I can't stop crying. Like it's actually happening. I'm missing her a lot more than I think. And he comes into the bed with us and we're hugging him. And as it happens, Lola walks in, doesn't realize PC's in there and she's choked crying because she can't believe that she's going to lose, lose him. So like the brother, sister bond, like they got to share that moment with us.

[Kim Holderness]

And now I'm crying again.

[Pen Holderness]

Oh my God, it was so, it was so beautiful. And they've remained friends and I feel very fortunate. I also think that they had a great mom who, who raised him the right way, who, who led to that moment. So I always think about that moment when I get sad and it makes me happy. So that's just how it works for me.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

I mean it is, it is such a messy, ugly, beautiful, complicated moment. And then the moment comes and goes and you say goodbye to the child. And then, and then like how did it look for a 15 year old who was letting his sister go? How did it look a week later, a month later? Like, where did that take your relationship with him and where did that take his relationship with his sister?

[Pen Holderness]

Well, our relationship with him, it's very simple. We took all of our hopes and dreams and expectations and one person.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

We're just like fairly focused on him

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

now and you know, they love that.

[Pen Holderness]

Oh God.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

It turns out.

[Kim Holderness]

Yes, exactly. So it is really sweet. Lola did a really, really good job of. She would, she kind of rotates who she FaceTimes on the way to class. One day it's me, next day it's Pen, next day it's her brother. And then there's a Family text every day. So I think it went a lot smoother than he was thinking because there's just. There's all this to keep track of. But then, yes, like, within a week, I was like, hey, buddy, I just learned how to log into your school portal because there's so many different portals. Turns out you're a little late on these things.

[Vanessa]

He Turns out they give you homework now. High school sophomore.

[Kim Holderness]

He's wrapping up his sophomore year now, and he goes, mom, I didn't miss any assignments this year. I was like, high five.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Great parenting.

[Vanessa]

I mean, I have a. I didn't

[Kim Holderness]

miss a single one.

[Vanessa]

I will have one left at home when my daughter leaves in September. And he is petrified because all he's envisioning is, like, me and his father just, like, staring at him like, oh, honey, you know, and just like, chin on hands, just like, tell us every. He's absolutely petrified to be left alone because he's the youngest of four. But they've already established some good behaviors akin to your kids. Right. There's a. A group chat of which my husband and I are not apart.

[Kim Holderness]

Love that.

[Vanessa]

Love that. They have a sibling Snapchat group, I think, where they mostly make fun of us and send, like, unflattering pictures of us. Great. And they have. Then individually, and then we have the big family WhatsApp group chat. But he needed a little help responding to his siblings texts when they were away. I don't know if your son was like this, but he assumed they didn't care about him. Like, they were sort of just doing it to just be nice. And I said, no, no, they actually want to know how you are. Like, they want to hear about your life. But he was like, oh, I'm the youngest. I'm the afterthought. They don't care. Did you feel like your son immediately dove into the, like, we're going to do this, or was he like, I'm not sure how to. How to handle this.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Her.

[Kim Holderness]

Her tears coming in that day. What she said verbatim was, he just really sucks at texting. And so she knew that he would be terrible at that. And it is exactly that. Like, he didn't feel as if still there's something we deal with which is like, he doesn't feel he is worthy of it.

[Vanessa]

He does.

[Kim Holderness]

Like, we actually do. No, no. Do we want to be there. Like, he had a. He was in a state championship for high jump and.

[Vanessa]

Oh, just casually. Just casually drop casually. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And then Lola's like, hey, can I go. And he goes, you don't need to. You don't need to. And I'm like, no, no, no. She wants to. He's like, no, it's fine. You don't need to. So, yeah, there was a lot of that.

[Pen Holderness]

We would not have known that he was in the state championship if his coach had, not us. He doesn't tell us when anything good happens to him. It's like. Like he was named captain of his basketball team. We found out on the last day of the season.

[Kim Holderness]

Like I said, we're like, oh, they

[Pen Holderness]

called you the you.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm like, well, he was in the center of the court a lot, and he was talking.

[Vanessa]

What are you doing talking to the ref before every single game and shaking hands with two other people on the court.

[Pen Holderness]

Lola would have hired barbershop quartet to come to our house sing. I've just been named captain.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. I think our children need to be friends with your children, Cara's children. There's a theme. There is a theme here.

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[Vanessa]

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[Vanessa]

He had his own learnings. What would you say were your learnings in terms of letting go, giving her the space to be who she is? Because I know you had Gretchen Rubin on your podcast who I love. Gretchen is brilliant and hilarious and kind. And Gretchen, you were like, how often should we like talk to our kid? And Gretchen was like, once a week. And I looked at her, I mean looked at her through my phone looking at you interview her. And I was like, no way. Uh, not trash, not working. So what happened in reality when the rubber met the road.

[Kim Holderness]

So here is what Gretchen would further clarify, which is if your child is doing the work of reaching out and texting and it is highly communicative, go with that. Talk to them every day if that's what they need.

[Pen Holderness]

But Gretchen also said you don't need to talk more than once a week. And you were like, I have to.

[Kim Holderness]

No, no. But she's like, but, but if your child is, which I predict my son is not going to instinctually reach out to us every day at least once a week is like bare minimum. But of what the expectation could fairly be set at. We took that bit of advice from Gretchen Woodland, who is very. She's brilliant, she's so smart. She's written so many books. Bestseller, 10 out of 10. Ignored it, drop, kicked it out of the room.

[Vanessa]

We love you, Gretchen.

[Kim Holderness]

But no, but she, she is, she is the first to say like, you have to go with what your family dynamic is. And that was not my dynamic.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Well, I mean there's like a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy here though, because their temperament and like, who they are. Right. You said Lola would bring the barbershop quartet. My daughter would hire a PR firm if she was the captain. Right. Like the whole thing. And yet the ones who don't virtue signal that they want to be connected when we try to respect that boundary. If you wrap Wonder Woman's rope of truth around them and ask them, do you want us to be reaching out more or to be more connected? Some of them will say no and some of them will say yes. And this is just the, the pattern we've gotten into. And I thought this was what we were supposed to do. So it's like a. You got to find your balance, and your balance is always changing. It's like a seesaw on a ball, you know, it's constantly moving, and it's complicated.

[Pen Holderness]

I also think parents are like, we are guilty of virtue signaling. We are guilty of having preferences. I mean, I think I, like, I love my daughter. If I don't talk to her for a day, like, it's okay. Like, I'll start missing her in a couple of days and I'll want to hear from her again. I know. Like, it's right. It's different, right? So for me, it's been. It's been more of, like, quality, like, trying to get, like, some real good chunks. Like, quality chunks worth her now that she's in college. So the stuff I'll remember, like, the move in, move in day. As much as I still got PTSD for how much crap they tried to claim it, like, cram into their dorm room and then just, like, you know, going to see her on multiple occasions, Sometimes just the two of us, sometimes just her and Kim. We went to Greek week, which is like, you go, like, parents Greek weekends. So you get to go visit her sorority and you get to go to the fraternities. And that was the place, honestly, where my first, like, okay, I'm a little worried about this happened because not only did I see kind of how much fun they were having, I looked at the way that they were living. And look, I was guilty of this, too. Like, I started realizing I was a slob.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

It's disgusting.

[Vanessa]

Oh, they're disgusting.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Disgusting.

[Pen Holderness]

No. Like, I had. And this. There's a long story to this, but I had a box of chicken wings in one of my drawers for three weeks because I forgot I put it there.

[Kim Holderness]

Just the bones. Just the bones, guys. Don't worry up.

[Pen Holderness]

Because someone was coming in my room, probably a girl, I don't know. But I put it in my drawer, and then I forgot about it, and it came out, and I'm like, oh, my God, we're leaving our kids. And even if it's a lovely university to live in this place. And I started getting, like, a little bit stressed about just, like, the public health side of college.

[Vanessa]

I stopped being invited into the dorm rooms because they knew how I was going to react. And my son's roommate, so that was my oldest, was like, yeah, no, don't come up. And I was like, you know what? He knows me well enough to know exactly what's going to happen if I do come up. So that was number One, Number two, his roommate's mom texted me because she was there first. She goes, don't go. Don't go in. It's gonna. It's gonna upset you too much. And then her husband just took a series of garbage bags and just threw out whatever he could. And at that point, I just, like. I just let it go. I just was like, this is their choice. I. There's nothing I can change. They're appalling. Somehow they go out looking gorgeous, you know, radiant skin and, like, a vision of health, but they're living in their own filth. Like, it's just astounding to me. I don't get it.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

My son went to visit my daughter when she was a freshman, and it was the first full year back post Covid. And he came home from that visit and promptly tested positive for Covid. And I said, where do you think you got Covid? And he said, oh, 100% from her floor.

[Pen Holderness]

Just floor Covid.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Floor Covid. Yeah. He said, mom, there was so much living on that floor.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, no, I'm so. I'm, like, nauseous. So I want to talk about. You talked about all the crap that got moved in. I want to rewind the videotape a little bit to the packing, purchasing, preparation that went into. And I would assume. Now I'm going to make some assumptions here. You can correct me if I'm wrong, that, Kim, you were at the helm of that packing and preparation, and there was a lot happening. I would guess as much as two months before move in date. Maybe the minute she was accepted into college several months before that. Like, paint the scene for us.

[Pen Holderness]

Oh, this. You guys are good. You guys want to see what happens when I. Okay. Yes. I think it was. She was looking at you funny there, because I think it was more than two months before for. There was. So

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

let's get real.

[Pen Holderness]

Honestly, like, if you guys live in the south, like, if there's a hurricane coming, everything's gone in the stores. Like, when. When girls are about to move off to college, it may as well be a hurricane. Like, every. There's, like, one. What the little beanbag left. And, like, women are jumping. It's like a Cabbage patch doll. They're like. They're fight over it. Sorry. They asked me.

[Vanessa]

And don't worry, Kim, you're gonna have a chance to. To play an important role in this conversation.

[Pen Holderness]

I think we sampled three different. You sampled three different types of shower shoes. Shower shoes. And then the shower buddy thing, which that's important because, again, we've established that they live in squalor. So, like, there was that. But also we were talking about Gretchen Rubin, Lisa d', Amore, who's also fantastic in this space, especially talking about teenage girls, called this before we even got to this point, saying that, like, one of the ways that you're gonna start pre grieving is by over preparing and organizing in this space.

[Vanessa]

Right?

[Pen Holderness]

So I was like. When I saw it, I was, like, prepared. Oh, this is what. Exactly what's happening. And gave her the space to do it. I. I gave her so much space that we had to rent a larger car to. To drive, like a Suburban to drive to her campus, knowing that, like, the car was bigger than the dorm room. And it was completely.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. I mean, it's like nesting, right? When we're pregnant, we nest or anticipating a baby. It's nest. It's just like another version of nesting. Okay? So Kim, you've got all this crap, and Penn, being the deeply masculine, competent, handy guy that he is, is charged with. Huh? Charged with making it all happen. Right? You're like, honey, this is why I married you. This is what you're here for. What did it look like moving, putting stuff together, installing the headboard. Like, give us a sense.

[Kim Holderness]

First of all, I knew it was going to be fine. I had. I knew it was going to be fine. I knew it was going to be fine. I knew the order in which things had to go in. I knew it was going to be fine. He immediately started freaking out that none of this stuff was going to fit. Maybe I bought too much because I wanted options. I knew we were gonna be going to. I knew we were gonna be going back to the store to return things. I just wanted options. I just wanted options. And so he started freaking out. There was a little marriage issue right there. Just in terms like, it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. But they did not do an amazing job. Cause both roommates are moving in at the same time. So it's like both families are in there. And it was. It was nearly impossible. It was. But we have agreed that next year she's gonna bring back, like, a pencil. And that's it.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

I think what Kim is saying is that she packed too much. Yeah. I just want to make sure that's

[Vanessa]

not what I heard, actually, I heard another person.

[Kim Holderness]

That way we had it. That way we had it. And you always have to as parents. I mean. And the reason we're talking to you today is like, you got to be prepared. And so we had yes. We had two different rugs. We didn't know which one was going to be, like, fit the room. We didn't know the room dimensions.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

We didn't know.

[Kim Holderness]

We didn't know which. Which. Which nightstand was going to fit. So we had to buy a couple. And then. Then we're fine.

[Pen Holderness]

We figured out if you guys have seen, like, those hgtv, like, renovation shows where the stylist comes in and brings a bunch of stuff and they have to do it in, like, one day. That was us. And the big question was, will they finish in time? In time. Which we did not. Everyone in the entire dorm was moved in and gone. And I was like. I was assembling several things that.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yes. With an allen wrench. With one allen wrench.

[Pen Holderness]

There were some, like, sympathetic dads who came over to help me because they saw that I was.

[Kim Holderness]

No, they were the boy dads. They were jealous. They were the boy dads because they came in with, like, a duffel. They will always be a stack of red solo cups. So they were fine.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Okay, so we're. We're prepping, right? We're in prep mode. So what are some of the other things? I mean, I. I immediately go to the health preparation, which makes me, you know, a little bit the womp womp. But I was, like, when my kids were born, I was so excited to stock only the medicines you needed and none of the stuff that was being marketed that you didn't need. So excited that that was my gift for all of my friends when they had their first baby was like, here are the five things you need and the doses that you take and. Excellent. Okay, so I have, like, my medical prep, which Vanessa is very well aware of. In fact, Vanessa, I always say she's an honorary doctor because at this point, she, like, understands more about pediatrics than most of my.

[Vanessa]

And I didn't have to go to medical school. It worked out so well for me.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Smart.

[Vanessa]

It's like, a fast track. Yeah.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

But I want to think about some of the things that you thought about in terms of health prep. Like, let's start with. Were there any conversations that you felt like you needed to jam in there during that really wonderful, easy time of.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pen Holderness]

Let's start with, like, I'm going to just tear down, like, one general stereotype, which is, like, the dad being like, don't you dare.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Like, oh, let's tear that down. I love this.

[Pen Holderness]

She is a strong woman. She can take care of herself on that front. Right. That whole, like, my daughter's Going to go to college. And. No, my daughter's 5 10. She'll kick the crap out of anybody. You did most of the doctor work.

[Kim Holderness]

I did. So first of all, just. We are so excited. We are partnering with gsk. We're on the Ask to be sure campaign and could not be more excited because this happened in our family. I took her to the pediatrician. She had turned 18, and I was like, okay, we're at the pediatrician still. You're still her doctor. What do we need to be prepared for? And every grade, there was, like, some paperwork you had to do. Remarkably little paperwork. I just. I felt a little loss about, like, what do we need to be prepared for? We are big fans of public health. Love it. 10 out of 10. And so when I asked, like, what other vaccinations should she be getting? Like, does she need anything to go into college? Our doctor said, well, you should really be thinking about a vaccination to protect against meningococcal disease, which is meningitis. I thought she had had her meningitis vaccine because we are up to date on all the vaccinations, but it turned out she had, like, the A, C, W, Y, like, she had all of these, but meningitis B, which is more common with the age group of 16 to 23, which is, like, where our kids are. I had no idea that there was a vaccination for that and to protect.

[Pen Holderness]

So she was so, like, Kim was so prepared in every other facet. You're listening to this like, she. She was on top of all of this. This is something that routinely falls through the cracks because you know that. Like the meningitis B vaccination. Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

Oh, no, no. So we had. We had no idea that that was something we were missing. Yeah, right.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yeah, right. So for those who are listening, who have no idea what meningitis is, I'll just give, like, two seconds on what meningitis is. So the meninges, it's just the tissue that surrounds the brain, and that area, the meninges, can get infected. And it can get infected a number of different ways, actually. You know when your pediatrician always said, don't fly with an ear infection, the big reason, actually, is meningitis. That if you've got an ear infection sitting in your inner ear and you're. You've got a ton of pressure during takeoff or landing, that infection can move into the neighboring meninges and can. Then the bacteria or viruses, whichever is causing the infection, can, like, spread rampant. So meningitis, meningitis is meninges, itis. Itis is infection or inflammation. That's all that means. And there are a ton of different types. You can have viral meningitis that's caused by a bunch of different viruses, and then you can have bacterial. And in the bacterial family, the meningococcal infection is one family of infections. And they've been named alphabetically, but not in alphabetical order, which is very confusing to.

[Kim Holderness]

Very weird.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

It's very weird. So there are all these subtypes, and there is a meningitis vaccine that is part of the schedule earlier on for younger kids that covers the types that you just listed. A and C and W and Y. Right. But the type B, that shot is generally not indicated until kids are older. And here's the thing that I think helps from a public health standpoint, whether it's floor Covid, by the way, that is not a thing.

[Pen Holderness]

Or they could be.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Or flu or meningitis or any other infectious disease that is easily transmissible. We could talk about measles. We could talk about any of them. When you're living in these very close quarters. Right. And a lot of them are not well ventilated. And these kids are. We have documented on this podcast how not clean they are in their space. When you are living in these conditions, infections spread really quickly and easily.

[Pen Holderness]

Right. They spread by sharing drinks, by sharing meals, by sharing utensils, by sharing faces. By sharing faces.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

By sharing things other than faces. Yes.

[Vanessa]

I was like, how are they going to say it? How are they going to say it? Oh, now I know.

[Pen Holderness]

By sharing faces. No, I mean, like, and when we went to that, like, frat week, and I was like, oh, our daughter's having such a good time. But then our brain, because, you know, we know about meningitis now, is like, we had a black light, sort of. We could see like, okay, what's going on here?

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Well, here's the thing.

[Vanessa]

I think we have.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

We have to really, like, spell it out for one second, which is, this is a fatal disease. Right.

[Pen Holderness]

So this is something 10% of people. Yeah, yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And then if it's like, if it's not fatal, then so many people, like one out of five are left with just really life altering side effects.

[Pen Holderness]

So when I was in college, this is in the 90s, I remember they. They shut down the entire fraternity row for a week because three people got meningitis. And I will never forget that one guy was a friend of a friend and he was in the hospital for several months and he has Long term effects. And yes, it is. I know it's. He has vision loss considered. Yeah, it's considered uncommon, but it is.

[Kim Holderness]

And why would you, with all there is to worry, sending your kid off to college? Obviously the most important is their health. I mean that. So when I learned that at the pediatricians last summer, I got on the mom's group chat and I said, hey, did you guys, have you asked your doctor about this? And so it was really such a natural thing and we are trying to scream it from the rooftops right now like ask to be sure. Just ask that extra question and you can go. GSK has this amazing YouTube channel and Ty Burrell and Julie, Julie Bowen just did a really funny video called the Meninge itinerary.

[Pen Holderness]

You got it?

[Kim Holderness]

I got it.

[Pen Holderness]

She's been practicing all morning.

[Kim Holderness]

And I. It's so funny in real life. And I think you can watch that video. You can go to ask to be sure.com just to learn all that stuff. But really at the bottom line, just go to your pediatrician, go to your kid's doctor and just ask like what is recommended?

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

And I'm going to put in a plug for going to your pediatrician. Just because you're going to college does not mean that you have been fired from that practice. You have not. If you don't still have a pediatrician, you can get care, including vaccines in non pediatric offices. You can get these vaccines in pharmacies, you can get them all over the place. So like big plug for that and even bigger plug for asking. There are a lot of questions to ask a pediatrician when you're sending a kid off to college, right? It's not just about infectious diseases, but about sex, about drugs, about all the things, right?

[Kim Holderness]

I mean there are so many. And there are, let me tell you, you're talking about like the medical kit that you send with your kids. You're a doctor so you knew exactly what to put in. I am, I am a mom with YouTube. So I sent everything. But there's, there's a lot you need to be prepared for. And if, and if there's anything that I could have protected, like any measure of protection, of course you're going to do that for your kid.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

We'll be right back. But first, a word from our sponsors. Experience a membership that backs your business

[Vanessa]

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[Dr. Jen Gunter]

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[Vanessa]

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[Dr. Jen Gunter]

There's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] Business Platinum

[Pen Holderness]

tomorrow morning is knocking.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Stock your fridge now.

[Kim Holderness]

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[Vanessa]

Yeah, I mean, it's part of the scariest aspect of launching our kids, which is that they are hopefully independent, hopefully functioning okay. I mean, freshmen in college get sick all the time. I feel like my older boys were literally sick more often than they were. Well, it might have something to do with their living conditions, but we're not saying sharing faces and other things, but they were sick all the time. And it's really hard when you're far away to gauge like, well, what is this? Is this serious? Is it not serious? Do they go to the medical center? Oh, they can't get an appointment. Do they go to urgent care? Like, do they need to go to the hospital because of whatever's going on? So not knowing is so hard. And I think having laid good groundwork with your kids, doctor, at least getting all the baseline stuff done, and then there's always gonna be the unknowns. I mean, that's part of launching a kid. So I wanna hear now, she's. I assume she's back.

[Kim Holderness]

She's back.

[Vanessa]

She's back. What was it like reintegrating her back into the house?

[Pen Holderness]

Are we doing this the way that we did it before or are we gonna.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yeah, you like that way? Go.

[Vanessa]

Yes.

[Kim Holderness]

I'm gonna stick myself here. Okay, so something I did.

[Vanessa]

Or not. Or not.

[Kim Holderness]

Or not. My podcast. Sorry. But I will say one thing we did throughout the year is I knew she was turning into a whole new person. And I was hearing it on the phone. I was seeing it on FaceTime. I know she was turning into a whole new person. So I. Before we went to visit every single time. And she actually loved this.

[Vanessa]

How many times did you visit? Just a general account, like once a month.

[Kim Holderness]

I made sure to see her. And when. One month. It was twice. But it was like, it's fine. It's fine.

[Vanessa]

Gretchen. We'll get. We'll get.

[Kim Holderness]

Gretchen says about that. But there was, like, a reason to be there. I had a. I mean, I had it. My notes app on my phone. But we would sit at dinner, and of course, you, like, take her roommates out to dinner and stuff. But I always, like, I always protect at least one meal.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

And would ask her questions about, like, if there's an emergency, like, who do you feel safe to call if, you know, we're not there? Who's there? Who's your person? What's the thing that made you laugh the hardest? What's. Who's the. Like, just who's the person with the weirdest roommate situation? She loved how. I mean, these were not judgmental questions. They weren't questions about, like, what's your major? Anything like that. To the point where it has become such a tradition, even with her friends. We sat down at, like, the last dinner with her friends were like, do you have your questions? So I will say that has been very. Like, she. Lola has. So when she came home, she's like, what questions do you have?

[Vanessa]

And did you do them in the notes app with the check box so you could check them after you.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

Penn, did you come up with all those questions? Was that your. Was that your homework? Your.

[Pen Holderness]

I had a lot of questions, but I usually don't write them down ahead of time. I'll just keep them in my head.

[Vanessa]

Because you don't have menopause, so you actually remember the questions that you want to ask.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah. I always ask her, like, where is she on a scale of 1 to 10? Like, what you know, and be honest. Like, if, you know, you never want to hear a one or a two when you're going to college, and if that's the case, we need to look at a different college. She said she was like. Felt like a 10. Like, she loved. She had a great experience. And so that. That part is. Look, there's. There's a lot of reasons that you lose sleep at night.

[Vanessa]

Yep.

[Pen Holderness]

And you do what you can to try to. To manage that. If your daughter's happy or your son is happy, that's probably the biggest issue. Health is a big issue. We feel like we did the best we could by help protecting. Protecting her from stuff like meningitis and everything else. And, you know, she still got hit by a car randomly. She was like, yeah, she called us. She's like, hey, guys. I got hit by a car. So she called us, which is a good. A good sign. We were in New York, and she's like. I'm like, what are you doing? She's like, I'm just walking back home. I'm like, you need to, like, go to the doctor. How do you feel? She's like, well, my back kind of hurts. I'm like, did you like, who hit you? And so she, like, finally went to a doctor, like, two days later. But she didn't want to get the woman in trouble who hit her.

[Kim Holderness]

I know. We need to work on this.

[Pen Holderness]

We're going to work on the car, but. So that was like. That was our unknown thing. Otherwise, she had a great year. We both had a little trouble talking to her when she got home, because our entire lives we've been giving her advice and saying, like, here's something that maybe you should do. And I think that we've now raised a woman who sees any type of unsolicited advice as criticism. Was it the case? You guys are nodding.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Come sit by me. Yes.

[Pen Holderness]

It's gonna go.

[Kim Holderness]

So we. Well, that. So that was our biggest conversation. Coming home, I have to say, coming home for Christmas break. I was not warned. You guys did not warn me.

[Vanessa]

Sorry.

[Kim Holderness]

It was the reentry, because she came back a whole.

[Pen Holderness]

It was a half re. Entry.

[Kim Holderness]

She came back a whole person. A whole new person. But I was still expecting, like, the girl who crawled into bed with us during thunderstorms. Right? Yeah. She was not that girl. And I was treating her like that girl, so it was like, a little, like. But I will say we were. We were all much better prepared for her coming home now. And it has been better. Knock on wood. It has been great.

[Pen Holderness]

I mean, part of it. We brought her home and then went on a vacation for a week, he and I.

[Kim Holderness]

He and I moved.

[Vanessa]

Brilliant.

[Pen Holderness]

We brought her home, and we left.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

So I think Gretchen would give you two thumbs up for that.

[Kim Holderness]

So it was my 50th birthday present, and I was like, oh, I hate that we're just dropping her off. And I was like, actually, that was the best.

[Pen Holderness]

She got to hibernate.

[Vanessa]

She was psyched.

[Kim Holderness]

She would. And she got to unpack without me judging, because we would call them every day, obviously, and she would FaceTime, and she wasn't getting her stuff out of the hallway as fast as I would have liked it, but I wasn't there, so it just removed that nagging instinct. So now that we're all settled, she's excited to be Home. We're excited. So far, so good.

[Vanessa]

It's a little bit like porcupines, right? Like they, the, the, the spines come out and then slowly, you know, things settle down, but you're not prepared for the spikes. You're like, you're just gonna come and nuzzle back in and. Do you guys have a dog?

[Kim Holderness]

Yes.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. So the dog immediately is loved. Like, no, no time has passed. They just like slide right back in together. But you and we, it takes a lot longer. And it hurts.

[Kim Holderness]

It hurts, it hurts. And I, I will say, the Christmas was such a wake up call. And I mean, literally part of the questions I was asking her, I'm like, do you have anything you want to ask us? You know, as we, we had a really intentional conversation. Like, you're coming back in. You have to be respectful. That, like, we were from home. We're, you know, dad's up singing in the attic every other day. So you, like, you live here with us. And so, so far it's very new, but it's.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

And the accountability piece is complicated too. That's like the, the next path you'll navigate probably, you know, over the next several months, which is they've been living on their own and accountable to themselves and their friends who are in their buddy system. And yes, we check in with them, but they're not letting us know what time they're coming home. And if they don't come home at that time, we are not worried. It's different when they live away. And then when they're back under your roof, they're used to not having to be accountable. And we're back in that mode of. But you're under my roof and I can see you with my own two eyes. And now I'm freaking out because you said you were going to be back and you're not.

[Pen Holderness]

And it's a totally different relationship, though, because if you send them off to college, you by definition are like, they are becoming. This is the biggest step to adulthood they probably take.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

That's right.

[Vanessa]

Cara has one graduating from college next week. I have one who's a year out of having graduated from college. And they come back like, they're not so aggressive in their independence that they sort of give off that skunk smell for a while. And they actually are, like, a lot more confident in their autonomy. And so the transition home is a lot easier, like, throughout the college years. And my oldest, who moved out of the house and lives, you know, in an apartment with a friend, he comes home all the time, like he's home all the time, mostly because we have a very full fridge, and he misses the dog. But, like, they do sort of become more confident in this new being, and then they feel more able to kind of, like, be in partnership with you.

[Pen Holderness]

Vanessa, was that the one who came to you, like, who was 23, who was like, hey, Mom, I just want to thank you for what you did for me as a mom.

[Vanessa]

That was the kid we were getting on the subway. I just had a cocktail with him. I met him in the city. We both had dinners. We met for martinis near Grand Central, and we had a great time. And then we were both going somewhere else, and we're getting on the subway, and he goes, hey, Mom, I know I told you it was really annoying when I was younger that you set all these rules for me, but I'm really grateful. Like, thank you. I feel like I turned out well because of the limits that you set for me. And I swear to God, there was, like, a choir. I was in fan central. Like, I swear to God, it was like a flash mob of everyone else getting on the subway. Just the heavens open. And they started singing, and I just, like, slid down the banister to get down to the turn sign, and the

[Kim Holderness]

train doors magically opened up.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, just, like, dancing around me, like, good job, Mom. It was incredible. And so we do play a long game. Like, after the college process, it feels like, oh, they're finally in. We've gotten there. But then there's a whole nother set of experiences. Experiences to get through and a whole new stage of our relationship.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

But I'm going to put an asterisk on that and say, we can get there. We, the parents, they the kids, when we let go. And I think what we've been talking about and around here is that process of letting go. But they have to make decisions on their own. They have to be their own person that we can help educate them, inform them, keep them healthy, keep. Keep them grounded, be on the other end of the phone. But at the end of the day, there is no room for helicoptering, snowplowing, whatever you want to call it when they are also trying to be adults. They have to be able to have this sort of sense of real agency and real autonomy. And that is hard for a lot of parents. That's the challenge.

[Pen Holderness]

All right, so I feel like. I feel like I'm a good. Do a good job of summing up the day. I feel like I got it now.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Love it. Go.

[Pen Holderness]

So, number one, we have to let them Grow by letting them go.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yes.

[Pen Holderness]

And that's. That's.

[Vanessa]

That's.

[Pen Holderness]

Number one. These are my.

[Vanessa]

Give me that T shirt, Kim. Yep.

[Pen Holderness]

Two, we got to do the best we can to keep them healthy and safe where they are.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

It's our job.

[Pen Holderness]

So gsk, ask to be sure dot com. And number three, this is all really, like, reaching to our end result, which is them coming to us in five years and saying the three words we want to hear.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

You were right.

[Pen Holderness]

Were right.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

100% right.

[Pen Holderness]

Well, I'm not expecting that. To know that would be awesome if that.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Oh, it's going to happen.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, I do. I mean, I feel so grateful that we have these really healthy kids, because at the end of the day, like, that's, like, that's all that matters. But I do. The part of parenting I'm really struggling with is seeing.

[Pen Holderness]

You were right.

[Kim Holderness]

No, no, no, no, no. Seeing. No, no, no. Seeing them make decisions, even down to, like, what classes to register for or what sport to play or whatever, and not being what I would do for them, like, what I think they'd be best at or whatever. But. And it's not my job, and I have to, like, the hardest part is just like, okay, yes. I still have to advocate for them. I still, like, when it comes to, like, their brains aren't fully formed, so, like, there's, like, health decisions. They need guidance on all these things, but when it comes to these life decisions, like, I have to let them go. And so it's like this dance. You're like, I still have to help you advocate for yourself. I still have to teach you these things, but also, like, step off, like, get out of the way.

[Vanessa]

Right.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

I mean, the thing is, you know exactly what the end point is and where it's going. And they are committed to taking a very windy road. And, you know, there's a straighter path. Like, guy, if you just do this, you can get there. But they need to take the windy road. They need to learn the lessons. They need to stumble. Yes.

[Pen Holderness]

She's been doing a good job of, like, sort of. I can tell she's about to say it, and then she doesn't say it. And then the two of us end up together at the end of the night, and she just lets it all go. And I get. I get. It's good. It's great.

[Vanessa]

One of the things that these kind of visits or facetimes, these, like, special moments, and it's really. I think it's wonderful when we have time alone with our college kids, when it's not on mass. Is learning to read your kid from afar or re engaging with them when you haven't seen them for a while. And, like, the role your spidey sense takes and sensing, like, huh, something doesn't feel quite right here. How am I going to wade into a conversation without making them feel judged or without, like, adding to their worry? And so it's, like, about their classes. Right. Like, one of my kids was in a major, and he hated it. And he felt this pressure to major in this thing because he's all the. The economy and AI and. And he just needed me to say, hey, you do whatever feels right to you, but, like, you love to learn, and it doesn't feel like you're loving to learn right now. Like, what classes have you loved? Like, what really fired you up? And he ended up changing majors and choosing a minor in an area that he really loved. And it was not me being like, dude, what the hell are you doing? Like, your grades aren't good or like, you don't like this. You're going to get a bad whatever. Like, don't do it. Instead, I was like, I am noticing that you don't seem, like, fully thrilled about this. What can we do? And so you just get better. This is now the end of his second year. It took me two years to figure out how to have that conversation with that kid.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah. So it's like, approaching it out of genuine curiosity, not out of the win.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. And people use that phrase all the time. But actually executing on curiosity is an art. And it's an art that, like, you develop over time as a parent. And each of you will do it totally differently. Like, the way my husband does it is, like, utterly different than the way I would do it. And the kids have a sense of humor, and sometimes they're like, what strategies would you use differently? And I'm like, okay, well, you might mock me, but you're thinking about it. So I know this is working.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

And just making space for it. So. You guys are so brilliant. You are so funny. You filled with wonderful humanity. I have no doubt that your daughter is, like, so psyched to be home, even if she's not showing it yet. And I think you just give other folks on this journey so much affirmation and joy and humor as we deal with all the messiness of life, most especially keeping our kids healthy and safe, which is the biggest job we have.

[Kim Holderness]

That's the biggest job.

[Vanessa]

So thank you for joining us. Come back and talk about adhd, because we didn't even scratch the surface.

[Pen Holderness]

Talk about it.

[Kim Holderness]

Yeah, let's. But let's do it. Let's do it, please.

[Vanessa]

Great. And just Good luck. Happy 50th birthday. You can.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

I hope. The hallway. I'm really. I'm really focused on the bags in the hallway.

[Vanessa]

The hallway. She's like, are you. Are there still bags in the hallway?

[Kim Holderness]

She got it. So, yeah, she. Then it became the donation bags that sat there and there's like this little thing we're. This a dance we're doing is like she'll put the donation bags out in the hallway, and then I put them back in her room, and then she fits them in the hallway and then I put it back. We're just like not saying anything to each other.

[Pen Holderness]

That sounds healthy.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yeah, I'm very excited.

[Vanessa]

Ken, what do you do during that little dance? Do you just stand in the hallway and watch greatness.

[Kim Holderness]

If you put those in your car,

[Pen Holderness]

I don't go to that side of the house like that.

[Kim Holderness]

You don't even have a big house. It's just like, take a left.

[Pen Holderness]

Yeah, but I just don't. I don't look to the left. I go downstairs.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

A left sided peripheral vision has been shut down.

[Pen Holderness]

Like, I'm really proud of her for all the work that she did. Like, she really, like, she had too many clothes, and she still has too many clothes, but now she has less too many clothes. And there's another member of our family who has a similar problem. So.

[Vanessa]

But I got to have options. You got to have options. It's like when you pack for a trip, you don't bring one outfit for the main event. You bring three options in case you change your mind.

[Pen Holderness]

All right, this will be the next podcast we'll do. After the ADHD podcast, we'll come back and we'll talk about, like, if you have a closet that you share with your husband and your husband's twice the size of you, what percentage of that closet should the husband have?

[Vanessa]

20%.

[Kim Holderness]

I was saying 25.

[Pen Holderness]

Roughly 25%.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good math.

[Kim Holderness]

We're definitely coming back to you guys.

[Vanessa]

You guys wear the same thing every day. It doesn't matter. Like, it's. Who can tell? It's always the. I mean, I don't know if you do pen, but my husband, no I

[Kim Holderness]

black T shirts, and he's like, oh, I'm wearing a. A slightly less black T shirt today.

[Vanessa]

Branching out.

[Kim Holderness]

Completely different.

[Pen Holderness]

But is this a chicken or an egg thing? Like, do I wear the same Thing every day because I only have 20% of the closet.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

That's a strong but not winning argument.

[Pen Holderness]

See, this is weird.

[Kim Holderness]

After Clara, our.

[Pen Holderness]

Our connections get kind of.

[Vanessa]

Oh, oh. Do you guys need to. Do you guys need to log out? Are you. Are you losing your. Are you losing your.

[Pen Holderness]

No, I know you guys are. That's right. This is. Yeah, this is an argument I will never win.

[Vanessa]

You will never. You will never.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

But you might get to 30%. And I wish you good luck on your journey.

[Vanessa]

You can also take over one of your children's closets at some point.

[Pen Holderness]

No, Kim's already done that.

[Kim Holderness]

No, the guest room. The guest room. It's not my children's closet. It's the guest room closet.

[Vanessa]

Fair game. Guest room is fair game. I totally support that. You guys are wonderful. Come back and see us. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. Your beautiful daughter and your son is going to learn how to text. Text back. This is gonna. This is gonna happen.

[Pen Holderness]

Better than just good, good.

[Vanessa]

Fine, Fine. Yeah.

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

Yeah.

[Kim Holderness]

To talk to. Thank you and thank you for the work you do talking about this part of parenting, because I think there's so many books about the babies and the toddler years, but who has time to read the books when you have babies and toddlers? And, like, this is. Like, this is the part that's so hard and confusing. So thank you for the work you do.

[Vanessa]

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. You can email us with questions, feedback, or episode requests. Podcast.com if you want to learn more

[Dr. Jen Gunter]

about what we do to make this whole stage of life less awkward for everyone involved. Our parent membership, our school health ed curriculum, our keynote talks, and more are [e-mail].

[Vanessa]

and if you want products that make puberty so much more comfortable, visit myumla.com.

[Pen Holderness]

Close your eyes. Focus. Listen to work getting done with Monday.com. relax as AI does the manual work while your teams are aligned on a single source of truth. Feel the sensation of an AI work platform so flexible and intuitive it feels like it was built just for you. Notice you're limitless. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com, start for free, and finally, breathe.