When Autism Meets Puberty

Summary

Podcast Summary: "When Autism Meets Puberty"

Podcast: This Is So Awkward
Hosts: Kara Natterson, Vanessa Kroll Bennett
Guest: Dr. Donna Henderson, Neuropsychologist
Original Airdate: July 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Kara and Vanessa have a candid, insightful, and often humorous conversation with neuropsychologist Dr. Donna Henderson about the intersection of autism and puberty. The discussion tackles how neurodiversity, especially autism, shapes the puberty experience for young people—and how puberty, in turn, impacts autistic kids. Dr. Henderson shares both her clinical and personal insights, giving guidance on sensory needs, communication strategies, language preferences, and how families and caretakers can create supportive, validating environments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Autism, Camouflaging, and Evolving Terminology

• Donna’s Background

  • Donna explains she’s a neuropsychologist and also has two autistic children, providing perspectives both professional and personal (03:38).
  • She describes being undertrained in autism, a common issue in the mental health field, and how her interest developed after realizing the prevalence of undiagnosed/unsupported autistic individuals.

• Camouflaging Defined

  • Camouflaging refers to the discrepancy between an autistic person’s inner experience and their outward behavior – often unconsciously suppressing natural responses to “fit in.” (05:30)

  “When your inner experience doesn't match your outer behavior…autistic people who grow up camouflaging all the time don't always realize when they're doing it.” – Dr. Donna Henderson (05:30)

• Language and Labels in Autism

  • There is no universally “correct” term—use what the person prefers.
  • A shift is happening from the medical “person with autism” (person-first language) toward “autistic person” (identity-first language), reflecting pride and the idea that autism is a core part of identity, not a disease. (07:53)
  • Terms like Asperger’s and PDD-NOS have been absorbed into the broader “autism spectrum disorder” since 2013.

2. Sensory Differences and Puberty

• Eight Sensory Systems

  • Beyond the five traditional senses, Donna details three more:
    • Interoception: Perceiving internal body sensations (hunger, thirst, sexual urges, emotional states). Many autistic kids have differences here, making it harder to label or process internal states—which greatly affects their puberty experience (16:45).
    • Proprioception: Awareness of body in space. Growth spurts can make navigation tricky, especially for kids with proprioceptive challenges (18:39).
    • Vestibular Functioning: Sense of balance and movement; might drive behaviors like spinning or difficulties with motion (23:28).
  • Sensory overwhelm in puberty can set off “neuro crash” (autistic burnout), not just meltdowns—another important vocabulary shift (22:34).

• Social Touch and Body Awareness

  • Increased touch/hugging in tweens can be distressing for autistic youth, making clear communication and boundaries especially vital (21:03).
  • Autistic kids may be particularly sensitive about being touched unexpectedly, hallway jostling, etc.

3. Communication Strategies

• Direct Over Indirect

  • Autistic kids do best with very direct communication—no euphemisms or indirect, idiomatic language (45:55).

    “Autistic kids do best with very direct communication, unusually direct communication.…Don’t beat around the bush at all.” – Dr. Donna Henderson (45:55)

  • Avoid requiring eye contact during difficult talks; consider walking, driving, or doing parallel activities instead.

• Building Trust and Validating Experience

  • Caregivers should avoid peppering kids with “How do you feel?” questions, especially if the child struggles with interoception (25:52).

    “Stop asking so many questions that are really hard for your kid to answer.…it’s like you’re saying, ‘What color is your breath, honey?’” – Dr. Donna Henderson (25:52)

  • Model calmness; anxiety is contagious, as is calm (27:27).
  • Above all, validate—honor kids’ experiences, even when you don’t fully understand or agree. This builds long-term trust. (27:27, 30:18)

4. Sexuality, Gender, and Identity

• Low Interoception and AroAce Identity

  • Some autistic youth may report little sexual or romantic interest (aromantic/asexual, or “aroace”); low interoception might be relevant here (32:56).
  • Others may not connect with the social construct of gender, leading to “autigender”—not cis, not trans, just autistic and themselves (33:52).

• Risk and Safety

  • Disabled kids, including autistic kids, are at higher risk for all forms of victimization—sexual, emotional, financial, physical (48:17).
    • Extra emphasis should be on teaching safe touch, “spidey sense,” and ensuring kids know they can always tell caregivers when something feels wrong—even if their instincts are less reliable (51:04).
    • Storytelling, role-play, and repetition are helpful for building these skills.

5. Reframing Autism: From “Fixing” to Supporting

• There’s a societal shift away from “fixing” autistic kids (e.g., social skills training to make them look non-autistic) to supporting them in being their authentic selves (36:35).
• Inclusion should be about balancing the individual’s needs with being functional in the world—not forced assimilation.

6. Family Dynamics and Everyday Empathy

• Donna shares a family story about eye contact at the dinner table, illustrating how mutual adjustments and open, curious dialogue foster empathy (40:12).

  “We make eye contact out there in the world because we have to…Why should we have to do it in our own home?” – Donna’s kids (40:27)

• Mistakes happen—what matters is being non-defensive, curious, and open to dialogue (43:05).

  “Meet difference with curiosity, not judgment.” – (44:05)

7. What Not to Say: Avoiding Micro-traumas

• “You’re so sensitive” or “Don’t be so dramatic/calm down” are harmful and reinforce shame around innate traits (52:01).
  • Instead, frame it as a difference in nervous systems, not a character flaw.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On validating emotions even when you don’t know what to say:

  “When you have no clue what to say, lead with validation. Say what you’re seeing.… ‘Wow, I see how angry you are.’… I promise it will never lead you wrong to start there.” – Dr. Donna Henderson (30:18)

• On the strength of sensitivity:

  “I'm not, quote, too sensitive. I'm actually really strong. I'm stronger than most people. I move through a world that is…loud, sharp and pointy.” – Dr. Donna Henderson (53:29)

• On evolving family empathy:

  “There’s no right and wrong. It’s about having these open, respectful conversations to try to find something that works for everyone.” – Dr. Donna Henderson (41:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:38] – Donna Henderson’s journey into autism expertise
• [05:30] – Camouflaging and evolving definitions of autism
• [07:53] – Language: “autistic person” vs “person with autism”
• [16:45] – Sensory systems & puberty: Interoception explained
• [18:39] – Proprioception and body awareness in puberty
• [22:34] – The concept of “neuro crash”
• [25:52] – Challenges of communicating with neurodivergent teens
• [27:27] – Nervous system co-regulation; importance of validation
• [32:56] – Asexuality, gender identity, and autism
• [36:35] – Shifting from “fixing” to supporting autistic youth
• [40:12] – Family story: Eye contact and negotiating neurodiverse needs
• [43:05] – Building trust, curiosity over judgment
• [45:55] – Communication tips: directness, eye contact alternatives
• [48:17] – Risks: sexual, emotional, financial victimization
• [51:04] – Teaching safety and “spidey sense” to autistic youth
• [52:01] – Avoiding micro-traumas: “You’re so sensitive”
• [53:29] – Sensitivity as strength

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Practical Guidance & Takeaways

• Be direct. Use clear, plain language and skip metaphors, euphemisms, or idioms.
• Validate. Recognize and reflect the child’s experience, even if you don’t get it.
• Model calmness. Kids attune to your nervous system.
• Don’t force eye contact. Offer alternative settings for tough talks (walks, car rides).
• Foster open curiosity. Discuss differences non-judgmentally; “meet difference with curiosity, not judgment.”
• Teach safety skills through repetition, stories, and role-play.
• Encourage pride and self-understanding. Autism is a difference, not a defect.
• Avoid shaming sensitivities. Sensitivities reflect nervous system wiring—not lack of strength.
• Recognize shared strategies. What works for neurodivergent youth often benefits all youth.

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For more resources and their ongoing work in puberty education, visit lessawkward.com.

Transcript

[Donna Henderson]

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[Kara]

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[Donna Henderson]

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[Kara]

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[Vanessa]

Monday.com Vanessa we get asked all the time what happens at the intersection of puberty and autism in every context.

[Donna Henderson]

Right.

[Vanessa]

We get people emailing us through our podcast question link on our website. We get people dming us on social media. When we speak to audiences, the first hand up is almost always a question about how does neurodiversity change your path through puberty? And how does puberty change your experience of neurodiversity? And people are asking because they are trying to figure this out in their own homes, in their schools, in their healthcare provider settings, if they're coaches on their teams. Like, this is such a universal question. And so it made perfect sense to re release an episode that we put out a couple of years ago with neuropsychologist Donna Henderson, who is an expert who works with helping autistic youth navigate their tween and teen years.

[Kara]

Yeah, and Donna is an awesome guest, not only because of her professional experience, but she also has two children in her home who are autistic. And so she talks about it both from a professional perspective and from a personal perspective and helps kind of reframe our understanding of this neurodiversity and provides insights as to how puberty is experienced differently by these kids and how adults and family members can use clear communication and individualized strategies to best support these kids through this journey. And it's funny, I mean, it sounds like it's a heavy topic, but the conversation is warm and funny because she is unvarnished and honest and so deeply insightful about the topic.

[Vanessa]

I mean, I'm going to go listen again. Vanessa.

[Kara]

Doctor Donna Henderson, thank you for joining us.

[Donna Henderson]

Well, thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

[Kara]

So we got to you through our friend Debbie Reber from Tilt Parenting. And the reason that we so desperately and eagerly asked her to connect us with you is one of the biggest questions we got on the road in front of 55 schools and thousands of parents was how do we support neurodiverse kids through puberty? And is puberty different for kids who are neurodiverse? And we did an episode with Debbie where we talked about some of that stuff, but it was a very 30,000 Foot episode. And today we're going to talk to you specifically about autism and the intersection of autism and puberty. And I think if we could start, Donna, with you just sharing with our listeners a little bit about your expertise and how you come to be an expert on this particular topic.

[Donna Henderson]

Sure. Happy to. So I'm a neuropsychologist. I'm not autistic myself. I'm an ADHDer. And I had absolutely no interest in autism. I got almost no training in it in graduate school. It intimidated me, just didn't particularly interest me. So I avoided it for the first part of my career, and I found a lot of other mental health clinicians avoided it. So that sort of normalized it for me and made it feel like it was okay even though it wasn't. And at a certain point about 15 years ago, I realized, wait a minute, I can't avoid this. I need to understand autism. And I started to gradually learn it wasn't just me, that it's a problem in the mental health field, in health care in general. So many people didn't get enough training on this. So I learned more and more particularly about autistic people who camouflage and aren't recognized as autistic. And I started doing it because I felt like I should, and I fell in love with it. I these just ended up being my favorite clients to work with. It felt like really fun and interesting and meaningful work. And so I eventually decided to write a book which evolved into two books with my co authors, Sarah Whelan and Janelle White. And through this, I also learned I have some autistic people in my own family.

[Vanessa]

You talked about camouflaging. The definition has also changed and morphed and evolved over the time from when you weren't interested until you fell in love with this topic. Can you help people understand the terminology a little bit and what maybe what was meant by the term in the past and what is meant by the term now?

[Donna Henderson]

Yeah, I very, very roughly think of camouflaging as when your inner experience doesn't match your outer behavior. People think sometimes that camouflaging is a conscious choice and like they could tell somebody, well, just, you don't have to camouflage with me. Just stop. But autistic people who grow up camouflaging all the time don't always realize when they're doing it. They can't necessarily start and stop at will, although sometimes to some extent, they certainly can do that. And we all, all of us non autistics can relate to this. But we don't have to camouflage nearly as much as autistic people do. But we can vaguely relate to it. When you camouflage, you May stop behaviors that would feel natural to you. So you might want to be rocking during a conversation, and you force yourself to not rock. That would be camouflaging. And it also could be forcing yourself to engage in behaviors that don't feel comfortable to you, like making typical eye contact, forcing yourself to do that. And it's all in an effort to fit in and to not be noticed is different.

[Kara]

So when we talk about when we use the word autism or autistic people, some people might be sitting there thinking, I thought I was supposed to say people with autism. Have I been saying it wrong? Am I using it wrong? I thought I was supposed to use Asperger's for some people and autistic for other people. Right. Like the. The language and the definitions and the sort of respectful vocabulary has evolved rapidly. And can you help us, Donna, understand what autistic people would prefer personally? And again, this is. It's sort of a dumb way to ask the question, because I. I'm creating a monolith that's composed of many, many different human beings. So can you talk about, like, what sort of considered acceptable or respectful language? Where are the pockets where people may choose different things? Like, we had Jessica Leahy on recently to talk about addiction, and she's like, the accepted terminology is substance use disorder, but I call myself an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic. That's how I refer. Right. So can you give us a sense of what that landscape is like in terms of vocabulary?

[Donna Henderson]

Yeah, yeah. So there is no one right way to talk about any of this, because, like you said, we're talking about, you know, I don't know, 140 million people worldwide, we're talking about autistics, and they all have their own preferences. So when you're working or talking or living with an individual, you ask that person what language they prefer, and you use that language. Of course, on a grander level, there is sort of the medical model, which is person with autism. And many of us in healthcare sort of grew up with that medical model. So if somebody has diabetes, you don't say the diabetic, you say the person with diabetes. Because diabetes is a disease and it's categorically bad, and nobody in their right mind would choose to be diabetic. You know, there's nothing good about it. And so you want to put the person first and note that the person is separate from the disease or the disorder. So historically, that is how autism was talked about, particularly for autistic people who have really, really high support needs and their parents would talk about it that way particularly. But now we have so many really bright, late diagnosed autistic people who say, I don't see this as a disorder at all. This is just part of who I am. And they often prefer identity first language, autistic person and capitalizing the A there, capital A autistic person. So that's identity first language. So because that's the population I tend to work with, I tend to use identity first language. So up until 2013, we diagnosed autism spectrum disorder separately from Asperger's, separately from something called PDD nos, which stood for pervasive developmental disorder, not otherwise specified, but which we informally called psychologist didn't decide for PDD or physician didn't decide it was sort of for these instances when somebody was felt to be kind of sort of spectrumy, but the clinician wasn't comfortable making, making a call. So there's a lot of people with that PDD NOS diagnosis that sort of falls under the autism umbrella. But in 2013, it all got combined into one diagnosis, Autism spectrum disorder. So that's all we have anymore. However, if somebody was previously diagnosed with Asperger's and they want to call themselves an Aspie, of course. How about it?

[Vanessa]

Okay, so it's always fascinating to me to see where the vocabulary shifts. So pregnancy is not a disease and yet the medical model calls pregnancy a disease. Right. So much in the same way we have so many physical and mental health challenges or obstacles or just paths that get diseaseified. And there is a big push, I think, everywhere within healthcare and outside of healthcare to un disease them, which is happening in this field as well. And your follow along thought about when this diagnosis becomes a badge of honor, a part of someone's identity that they want to say I am autistic with a capital 8. Because there are a lot of strengths that come with having this brain type. And so I think that's a good place to start the conversation about being labeled as either autistic or being a person with autism and being in puberty. Because the spectrum is massive and the experience of these kids in these families along this spectrum is massive. And so maybe we can start with just something very simple, like as Vanessa teed it up, are there any common threads that seem to weave through this population vis a vis puberty that parents and caretakers and educators and healthcare providers and coaches and mentors should be thinking about? Is there any sort of top level way to approach talking about puberty with someone whose brain type is consistent with having autism? We'll Be right back. But first, a word from our sponsors.

[Kara]

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[Donna Henderson]

So big questions. Yeah. So you sort of asked two questions. I. I heard one.

[Vanessa]

Like 12 maybe.

[Donna Henderson]

I'm narrowing it down to two. I heard two. My ADHD brain weeded out the rest. So it's sort of like, what is the experience maybe of a lot of autistic kids in puberty? And also, what should parents and teachers know in terms of supporting them?

[Kara]

Yeah, it's basically the entire rest of the episode is what she.

[Donna Henderson]

And we've got four hours. Right?

[Kara]

And we've got four. We've got four days. Donna.

[Donna Henderson]

It's great.

[Kara]

So I would love to start inside the body. Like, I want to know, in your experience working with autistic kids in puberty, what's your understanding of their experience in puberty that might be different than a non autistic person's experience going through puberty?

[Donna Henderson]

So a few things come to mind. One is there is. Well, obviously there's a lot of. There can be a lot of sensory differences. Right. People know about sensory sensitivities. One sensory difference that people seem less aware of is interoception. So I grew up being told we have five sensory systems, but we actually have eight sensory systems. And one of those other three that people don't think about is interoception, which is your ability to sort of perceive and understand and interpret what's happening inside your body, particularly in your organs. And that helps us know our homeostatic emotions. Like am I hungry? Am I thirsty? Do I have to pee? Am I having a sexual urge? Right. That's part of this. And interoception also helps us understand our affective emotions. Am I getting annoyed? Am I rageful? Am I a little sad? Am I super depressed? You know, what are all my feelings? As we know, people who are going through puberty have lots and lots of feelings. And we can't manage those feelings if we don't understand them, if we are not perceiving them in typical ways and we can't label them and talk about them. So if somebody has altered interrogation perception, either too low, where they're not perceiving or understanding the signals, or even too high, where every little signal can feel overwhelming to them, that can make it more challenging than typical kids to go through puberty. So that's one thing that comes to mind.

[Vanessa]

Janic, can you just share the other two in that bucket of eight? So we've got the basic five are smell, sight, hearing, taste, touch.

[Donna Henderson]

You got it. Yep.

[Vanessa]

Then there's interoception. What are the other two?

[Kara]

Proprioception.

[Donna Henderson]

Yep, you got it. And should we tell your listeners what proprioception is, please?

[Kara]

Because my definition will suck.

[Donna Henderson]

Yeah, I don't know that mine's much better, but it's knowing about the parts of your body, your hands, your legs, your arms, your fingers, you know what they're doing and where they are. So if I hand you a glass of water, I intuitively know how high to raise my arm and how much force to push forward with. If I'm climbing up and down stairs, I intuitively know how high to lift my legs. You know, my. My daughter, who has proprioception differences, tripped on stairs till she was, like, 18 years old. And it was sort of a family joke. It was just amusing. She never hurt herself or anything. And it took me forever to realize, oh, that's a sensory difference.

[Kara]

Yeah, I mean, I think of it as, like, your sense of yourself in space, like, in the outside world. So, like, I have two kids who, when you walk down the street with them, always veer in front of the other people they're walking down the street with because they're just, like, not aware of themselves in space in relationship to other people. It causes, like, a lot of really pleasant arguments amongst my four children as two members of our family are cutting off the two other members of our family. So that's always really, really fun.

[Vanessa]

In puberty, proprioception shifts because your body is physically changing size and you often don't know where you are in space. I mean, you grow. Your hands and feet grow first, then your legs and arms, then your trunk. And when you have those big hands and feet and those long legs and arms, but your trunk is still smaller in proportion, it can be very hard to navigate around the world. So there's a. That's.

[Kara]

That's so interesting, Donna. What changed at 18 that your daughter stopped tripping on stairs?

[Donna Henderson]

I think she just sort of, you know, her nervous system developed to a point where, you know, her proprioception just, you know, improved enough or she had enough practice Going up and downstairs. But, Kara, I never thought about it that way before, what you just said, and that's really interesting. And it also made me think social expectations change around that time too. As far as personal space and, you know, how close you might stand to somebody or how you may or may not touch somebody or be touched by somebody, it changes around the same time. So there's a lot happening there, a lot.

[Kara]

I keep thinking about also the hugging. Like, and I don't remember if when we were teenagers we did this, but today's tweens and teens do so much hugging. Like, it's so fascinating with each other, with adults. Like, I'll meet kids, friends of my kids who I literally am meeting for the first time, and they'll reach out for a hug and I'm like, okay. Like, if you're okay with it. But it's so the. The tactile, you know. And also, I mean, kids are constantly, like, you think about preschoolers constantly touching each other and pulling on each other and playing with each other, and it sort of seems to happen all over again in this puberty stage. Donna, is there. Is it both awareness of how you want to be touched and also whether or not other people are welcoming your touch? Is that. Is it both those considerations for autistic kids going through puberty, or do you find one way or the other? Seems to be more. More of a consideration.

[Donna Henderson]

More of the kids I've worked with, they are uncomfortable being touched by other people. Even moving down the hallway in middle school and being jostled by others, Most people don't find that to be pleasant. But for us non autistics, we can blow it off pretty quickly. It's not a big deal. But for a lot of these autistic kids, that might be enough. Or being hugged by even a friend unexpectedly, that might be enough to put them in neuro crash for the rest of the day. Right. And not be able to shake it off.

[Vanessa]

Neuro crash, that's a term I have not heard before.

[Donna Henderson]

Neuro crash, I love this term. It was coined by an autistic man named Ron Kaufman. And I think of it as the more grown upward for meltdown, you know, and so when. Right. It really is because, you know, a lot of these kids who are going through puberty and older, everyone, older people who are autistic especially, you can be in sensory overwhelm, you can be in social overwhelm, you can be in overwhelm from the flexibility requirements of your day. And then your nervous system gets to a Point where it's like, I'm done. Right. And that's, you know, neuro crash.

[Kara]

What's the third? I don't think we got to the third of the.

[Vanessa]

The last sentence.

[Donna Henderson]

It was bothering me too.

[Kara]

I know. I was like, we're gonna finish this podcast and we won't get to the third. Okay, so before we cut you off again, Donna, what's the third one?

[Donna Henderson]

It's vestibular functioning. And that is more about your trunk in your head and knowing, you know, if you're upright, if you're spinning. So kids who get car sick easily or crave being upside down or crave all the time, they have altered vestibular functioning as opposed to the parts of the body.

[Vanessa]

So that's very interesting because one of the sort of stereotypes, old school stereotypes of someone with autism, a young kid with autism might be a kid who is literally spinning right in space. And is that because their vestibular reflex, their vestibular. How would you phrase that? It's there.

[Donna Henderson]

It could be. Yeah. It could be vestibular sort of seeking or craving behavior, for sure. Yeah. That's fascinating. Absolutely. I also think of it just under the general category of stimming, which can be either sensory craving or some kind of repetitive behavior. The repetition feels good.

[Vanessa]

We take this group of kids who. Most of whom share interoception differences. Right.

[Donna Henderson]

Many of them do. Many.

[Vanessa]

And then some vestibular, some proprioceptive. Although there's a big Venn diagram overlap between people who don't have the diagnosis of autism and people who do, and all these different sensory issues. Right. And now let's apply that. Maybe we can focus on interoception a little bit. Let's apply that to. Your body is changing. Like it's physically shifting.

[Donna Henderson]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

So can you walk us through how a parent or caretaking adult might best engage a kid in conversation about their changing body? When there are enough challenges as it is, when kids are able to access their sort of. Their awareness of how their insides feel. Most kids, regardless of whether they carry the diagnosis of autism, don't have words for it until they are getting older. So that's. That's a hurdle. But how does one help a child who is struggling to figure out how they feel internally with a deeper understanding of what's happening internally?

[Donna Henderson]

Yeah, it's really challenging. One thing I would say, I find myself telling parents all the time, stop asking so many questions that are really hard for your kid to answer. If you're constantly like, how did that feel? How do you feel about that? Does that feel good? And if your child is constantly like, I don't know, fine. Not giving you some of that might be teenager, right? But if your child is neurodivergent and has low interoception, then it's like you're saying, what color is your breath today, honey? That's an what it's like for them.

[Kara]

By the way, this is great advice for caregivers of all kids. Like, I remember when my kid was. One of my kids was little and like he was language delayed and the therapist was kind of watching me interact with him and she's like, just stop asking him so many questions. And like, why are you asking a question? And then another question on top of it. Another, like, just give him a break. Give him a chance to like think and answer. And it was the best advice ever. And so I think this advice, Donna, it's like, what color is your breath? That's actually. That would be an amazing poetry prompt.

[Vanessa]

Amazing question.

[Kara]

So instead of showering them with questions that they may or may not be able to or feel comfortable answering, what is another way to help build that granularity, that awareness, without kind of backing the dump truck up on them?

[Donna Henderson]

I'll say two things. One is not necessarily helping that directly, but it's so important, especially for these kids, and that's remembering that there are two nervous systems communicating with each other when you're with your child. And it's one thing to be aware of the words that come out of your mouth, but it's just as important, if not more important, to be aware of your own nervous system and to just have a peaceful nervous system to whatever extent you can cultivate it and to lend that to your child, right? And when you are on edge and you are anxious to try to be aware of that and manage it or separate from your child for a little while, if you can. Because your nervous systems are constantly connecting and sharing things. And anxiety is contagious. Calm is contagious. So just keeping that in mind is one thing. And the other thing is, and I cannot stress this enough, it's true for every kid, but especially for our neurodivergent kids, validation. It is unbelievably important. Our neurodivergent kids get invalidated all the time, inadvertently, right. By well meaning people. You're so sensitive. It's not that loud in here. Why didn't you say hello to them? Why can't you be more social? Like just we, we tend to talk like that to our neurodivergent kids, and it invalidates them. And it's like tiny little traumas, the time that add up. And so first of all, stopping that to whatever extent we can, which, you know, it's. We just have to try our hardest. But then to validate their experience, experience, we're drawn to people who validate us. And if you validate your child, then after they are going through puberty and they become like full on adolescents and young adults, they will see you as a safe person to come and talk to. They will take counsel with you. They will tell you what's going on in their lives. If they see you as somebody who's validating. So you are like. It's like putting money in the bank for later on.

[Vanessa]

So what I'm hearing is the advice that we give parents across the board applies very much to kids with autism, which is valid. Being quiet, zipping it and validating are keys to not just future open communication, but also to not being part of these little micro traumas that they carry with them.

[Donna Henderson]

Right? Absolutely. And as the parent, I'm sure you've had the same experience I've had where there are moments in parenting where I have no clue what to say. Like, I know I'm supposed to say something, but I don't know.

[Vanessa]

Donna, that never happens to us.

[Donna Henderson]

Never.

[Kara]

Okay.

[Donna Henderson]

Must just be me. And. And here's the trick. In those moments, validate, lead with validation. Say what you're saying. Wow. I see how angry you are. I can. I can feel your anxiety right now. And boy, be feeling angry too. If I was, you know, seeing this situation the way you're seeing it. I promise it will never lead you wrong to start there.

[Kara]

You know, I'd be angry too, if I was my child.

[Vanessa]

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[Kara]

l l y.com these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Donna, I want to speak for a minute because you touched on it earlier and I'm honestly really curious and I think it would be helpful for our listeners. We talk about crushes and we talk about desire and urges and lust and sexual curiosity. And I'm curious about how does that play out for kids who are neurodiverse? Is there a discomfort or fear about it? Is there a way to explore it? Like as kids are getting comfortable or not in their bodies and there's new urges and they're in new dynamics with other people, what's your understanding of how we can best describe and support kids as that side of their development habits?

[Donna Henderson]

Yeah, so I mean, neurodivergent kids can run the gamut from, you know, typical feelings and ways of expressing them to very unusual feelings and ways of expressing them. So just I'm going to give you two examples that I commonly see. One is in these low interoception kids. They may be having very low urges for sexual or romantic interactions. And so I, you know, I don't know if you've heard the term aroace, aromantic, asexual, you know, so when I hear somebody's aroace, it's possible they're not autistic, of course, and somebody can be aroace for a variety of reasons. But autism crosses my mind as a possibility. Maybe they have low interoception and they're just not feeling many different feelings very strongly. And sexual urges is just one of many. Right. And the other is not about sexuality but about gender identity. So for some of these kids, they don't particularly feel masculine or feminine if they're not feeling a lot of things and, or they may not relate to the social construct of gender and not even understand what the heck we're even talking about with masculine and feminine. And there's a term I love called odi gender a U T I like autism, hyphen, gender, autigender, which basically means I can't separate my gender from my autism. I'm not cis, I'm not trans, I'm just me.

[Kara]

That is so fast. So the research tells us that there is a disproportionate number of autistic people who identify as non binary or transgender and like the research, as with all things around, gender identity is rapidly evolving and emerging. But we were so struck by that when we were writing the book. And I'm so happy to hear you kind of illuminate what may be the underpinning of that and illuminate it in a way that is joyful and based in, like, a sense of pride and identity, as opposed to, like, oh, well, now it's two problems. It's that you're describing it as the opposite, which is like, this is who I am, and these are the ways who I am come to inform my understanding of myself in the world. And I love that. Read on it.

[Vanessa]

Is it a version of interoception? Is it that there's just no desire to label that sort of internal feeling, or is it separate from that?

[Donna Henderson]

I personally don't associate body gender with interoception as much as not relating to the social construct of gender. But I don't know, in part because I'm not autistic and in part because this is also new.

[Kara]

Yeah. So one of the things that I appreciate about this part of the conversation is helping reframe for people things that have traditionally been seen. And you talked about this earlier, Donna, as a problem or an issue or something to be fixed or dealt with or treated. And as someone who works with autistic people, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about how the world is changing in terms of, like, that perspective on treating or fixing things about neurodiverse people and ways in which we're like, no, this is who I am and how I am, and I'm gonna move in the world as my authentic self, and I don't need to fix it. Can you share with people a little bit about that? I think it's a shift in thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Donna Henderson]

Yeah. Oh, it's a big shift in thinking. I mean, it's not happening fast enough, you know, but it is happening quickly, and it's very exciting to see. You know, when I was in graduate school and even for years after that, the idea was, oh, if you diagnose autism, that means you send somebody for social skills training. And the goal was to make the person look less autistic, to teach them, for instance, to make what they would call good eye contact, as if eye contact could be good or bad. Right. You know, and now there's a shift to, once we understand somebody's autistic, we think, well, how can we help that person live an authentic life while being functional in the world finding balance right with the world. So I don't regularly send people to social skills groups, for instance, I would much rather they're in a group with other, for instance, late diagnosed autistic people sharing their experiences, processing their trauma, comparing notes on how to disclose all of those kinds of things.

[Vanessa]

In the world of pediatrics, the way it was always taught was about mainstreaming. So very similar concept. The goal being that kids get mainstreamed back into classrooms where they are able to thrive with all the other kids. What's the philosophy there now? Where have things shifted?

[Donna Henderson]

I don't know if I can answer that because school systems are all so different and there's public schools and private schools and even here in the D.C. area, they're just a tremendous variance.

[Vanessa]

I don't have an answer either. And the reason I ask is sometimes when we look back through the retrospectoscope we think, okay, that was horrible. What we were doing was just, I can't believe that was our social policy, our healthcare policy or whatever. Right. And it's just cringy. In this case, I do think that there was a real concerted effort to do right by people whose social sensibilities were different in an effort to. This is what those social skills classes were all about. A mainstreaming is all about like, how can you help people come into the fold so that as they get older and individuate and become independent and all that, they are like rolling through life and everything's honky dory. And there's a balance between that and honoring who someone is at their core and sort of recognizing there are lots of different lives to live. I think this is one that it feels to me 10 or 20 years down the road we're going to look back on what we're doing now and have questions there too. Because it doesn't feel that there is one right answer for first of all, there's no one type of person who fits into this category. It's a very, very diverse group of people. And so there can't be one right solution. And does that add up 100%.

[Donna Henderson]

And for me it's not that historically all the onus of responsibility to change was on the autistic person. Non autistic people weren't doing the changing right. Yes, but we also, it's not practical to expect, well, the whole world is going to change and that autistic people can fully be their authentic selves all the time. So can I share a personal story that relates to this?

[Kara]

Of course.

[Donna Henderson]

So my dinner Table. On my side of the table is me and my youngest were Both non autistic ADHDers. The ADHD side of the table and the other side of the table are my two autistic kids who are 25 and 23. My husband sits at the head of the table and he's not part of this particular story. So one day my ADHD was telling a story and my two autistic kids, who are, you know, just to give you a snapshot, like, my oldest is in a PhD program, my middle one is in college, and they're out there in the world doing what they need to do anyway, so she was telling a story and they weren't making any eye contact. They were looking down the whole time while they were eating. And as a non autistic person, that felt disrespectful to me. So after a few minutes, I said, hey, autistic people, how about some eye contact over here for the non autistic people? Because that's how we talk in my family. And they laughed. And then they put me in my place, rightfully so, by saying, we make eye contact out there in the world because we have to and we're good at it, but we hate it. Why should we have to do it in our own home? And they were right, of course, they shouldn't have to do it in their own home. But also, that doesn't mean I was wrong for wanting eye contact.

[Vanessa]

That's right.

[Donna Henderson]

There's no right and wrong. And it's about having these open, respectful conversations to try to find something that works for everyone. And that's what I want for the families of the autistic people, for your listeners, parents, just to be able have these conversations?

[Kara]

So, Donna, how do we foster that in our families where we don't have autistic people, in families where we maybe have a situation like yours, where there's a. There's a whole buffet of folks sitting at the. Sitting at the table. Your husband will, I'm sure in another podcast episode, his diagnosis. My husband always says, like, everything that my kids have all comes from him. He's like, like, you have nothing and I have everything. And I'm like, just waiting for the day to save the money to do his neuropsych, because there will be like a month with him. So can you talk about how we can both foster empathy and understanding for autistic people without making our kids feel like they're walking on eggshells and can't be kind of authentically curious and engage in Conversation, like, I always feel we had this conversation with an expert we had about gender identity. Like, people are so afraid of messing up and saying the wrong thing that it becomes like a barrier to having really healthy exchanges. How would you recommend people go about that and sort of developing that in their. In their own families?

[Donna Henderson]

Yeah, I think we think of it like a bank account. You have to make deposits into the bank account of trust and build trust being genuine and being open to when, like when my kids called me out on my eye contact comment that I wasn't defensive in that moment that I was internally, I didn't want to accept that that was not like a proud mommy moment for me, but that I could be non defensive and say. And consider their point of view and say, you know what, you're right, I didn't think about it that way before. Which is hard to do. It's hard for any of us to do, to be non defensive in those moments, but to be able to pause and do that then signals to the other person next time they can bring it up again. And so we can have that open conversation. And my co author and dear friend Sarah Whalens always says, meet difference with curiosity, not judgment.

[Kara]

Right.

[Donna Henderson]

And so when somebody, anybody in your family or your world is behaving differently than you behave or behaving differently than you wish they would behave, to not lead with judgment, but to start with curiosity, like, I wonder what's driving that. I wonder what's behind that. And trying to ask them with authenticity,

[Vanessa]

you know, it's another. I mean, every podcast, no matter what the topic, it boils down to being curious and leaving your judgment behind. This is such an interesting moment in the conversation to recognize that a lot of what we've talked about is different from what we normally talk about. And yet all of the advice is the same, all of the approaches are the same, all the tools in the toolbox are the same. There's a universality to how we approach kids whose brains and bodies and hormones are transforming. And it really doesn't matter where they sit on the neurological spectrum. Kids are kids and zipping it, listening, being curious, not having judgment. All of these are the tricks of the trade that we as adults can bring to the conversation.

[Kara]

Donna, I would love for you to finish us off here with how people can talk to autistic kids about body changes, about emotional changes. You know, I'm thinking about, like, how many euphemisms we use in sex ed or in relationship conversations that I'm wondering if that's like, not an effective way. Idiomatic language. Like, what are some kind of guiding strategies for people caring for autistic kids that may need to do things a little bit differently?

[Donna Henderson]

Yeah, I'll give you a few. And that's a great point right there. Autistic kids do best with very direct communication, unusually direct communication. You have to just say it very, very clearly. Don't beat around the bush at all. Don't require eye contact when you're having hard conversations or awkward conversations. And that's probably true for all teenagers, but especially true for autistic kids. Not sitting across the kitchen table where eye contact is sort of expected, but taking a walk, which is amazing because there's repetitive behavior, there's access to nature. Driving in the car, just places where eye contact isn't necessary is really helpful. And making it clear there's no question that's off limits. Except I always had one rule with my kids. No question is off limits, except if it's about me and daddy. Not going to answer any questions about me and daddy. Outside of that, you can ask. Ask me anything in the world. And they did ask me some pretty wacky questions at times. And sometimes I was shocked or I felt awkward and had to quickly hide that, you know, in order to signal to them like, that's a cool question, you know, and they were cool and interesting questions.

[Kara]

Can I interject a question about that? Actually, because one of the techniques we recommend to people is when you get a question and you're not sure where it's coming from, we recommend people saying, oh, that's so interesting. Like, what made you think of that? I'm wondering if that question works, is successful. Is this a successful strategy for autistic kids? Or if somehow that sort of, like, puts them on the spot in a way that might feel uncomfortable. Like, what would your. If you're shocked by a question, is that something that would work?

[Donna Henderson]

I think that it just depends on the kid. There are some autistic kids that you absolutely could ask that of and others that, you know you can't. And you have to know your own child and how defensive they are and what kind of communicator they are and do some trial and error if you're not sure.

[Kara]

And what about, you know, we know that people with disabilities are at higher risk for sexual abuse and predation. And I'm wondering, with respect to autistic kids and prevention of sex abuse, same strategies, are there additional things that you would recommend people employ to help keep

[Donna Henderson]

their kids safe, you know, besides sort of Obvious things. The one I really highlight with parents. Again, I hate to sound like a broken record, but the more you are a safe person, the more you validate, the more you signal. You can say anything in the world to me and I will not be shocked. I will not judge you. Because what we want is for these kids who are at high risk of not just sexual victimization, all kinds of victimization. Right. To tell us their parents when something is happening, when something's out of the norm, when something doesn't feel right, to keep the lines of communication open. And this is. I'll go bring it back to interoception. This is especially true with these low interoception kids because when you think about times in your life when you felt unsafe in some way or yucky, it was a feeling. It was that inner alarm that vaguely told you, like, this isn't right. Get out of here. And if somebody's not getting those internal signals and doesn't necessarily have the social relationships like the friends to go to, to confide in, then they really need that open communication with their parents.

[Vanessa]

It's such a good point. And every one of us has had to learn how to be in touch with those internal signals. You know, this concept of instinct, it is partially inherent and is partially learned. And what you're talking about is just a steeper learning curve. Right. You just. The learning looks a little bit different. But your point that if someone is already socially isolated, in part because of their autism, and they don't have that peer group, it is ever more important that they have people, trusted people to go to who they can. Once they've identified this feeling, they can share this feeling. And I think that that's true for every kid across the board. But ever more important in this community,

[Kara]

Donna, is this a place where it's not necessarily social skills, but sort of educating autistic kids on, like, signals to look for and some of the skills in terms of safety. Like, when you say all forms of victimization, I assume you mean like, like emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, bullying, all of those things.

[Donna Henderson]

Financial. Yep.

[Kara]

Okay. So I think a lot of people don't know that. Like, I don't think people are aware of all the ways the victimization could potentially play out. Are there opportunities for caregivers of autistic kids to help build those? Kind of, like, if the spidey sense isn't kicking in. Right. The interoception. Are there ways to build those while allowing for kids to. To still be their authentic selves in

[Donna Henderson]

the World, I think maybe in terms of stories that comes to mind, reading books, telling stories where maybe one person wasn't acting kindly towards another person. And what were the signals? Because kids learn a lot from stories and from play acting things out, all of that sort of thing. It's not in one conversation or one technique, but many, many conversations.

[Kara]

One of the things that we think a lot about is what not to say to people, to the kids themselves. This comes up around sexual orientation, gender identity. What are some things that you wish people would stop saying to autistic kids about autistic kids? Like Emily Ladow, who wrote a wonderful book called Demystifying Disability, has like columns of like, what to say, what not to say. Do you have any that come to mind for you that you'd love to kind of educate our listeners about?

[Donna Henderson]

Oh, that's a good question. One that just ran through my mind is you're so sensitive.

[Kara]

Right.

[Donna Henderson]

And as an ADHD or I got that one growing up all the time and it just, every single time it made me feel less than, it made me feel so inadequate. And I internalized it over time to truly, you know, at 58 years old, successful by any metric, I still fight that feeling that I'm too sensitive and that it's not my nervous system but a character flaw. I fight that every day. It's so damaging to kids. And these kids are sensitive. They have sensitive nervous systems. They're sensitive to the external world, they're sensitive to the internal world quite frequently. That is not a character flaw. That's their nervous system. And so I, I'm sensitive to the phrase, you're so sensitive.

[Kara]

Yeah. Mine is don't be so dramatic or calm down. I'm like, if I had a dollar for every time. But I think helping kids understand that it is their nervous system, it doesn't make them a bad person or a good person. It just, that's how they're wired. I think it sort of neutralizes the judgment because kids love the science. Like, they love understanding how people's bodies work. And I, I like that language a lot as a way of, kind of a non judgmental way of, of framing it. Right, right.

[Donna Henderson]

And in fact, when you actually understand that you were born with a sensitive nervous system, then you realize, oh, I'm not, quote, too sensitive. I'm actually really strong. I'm stronger than most people. Right. I move through a world that is, as one patient said to me recently, loud, sharp and pointy. She said, the world is just loud, sharp and pointy. And I think that there's a real strength there and to recognize that strength is very powerful.

[Vanessa]

I mean, in much the same way that we tell kids who are allergic, your immune system is simply too good. I mean, and that's the truth, right? They go to 11 in many ways. That's what you're describing here and it is true. These are, you know, I'm so glad we're moving away from the medicalization of all of this and talking about this spectrum of behavioral and social and experiential circumstances for kids and adults who live with autism. And it's a wide eyed look, not just non judgmental, it's like a, a beautiful, inclusive, excited to bring you into our fold in whatever way works for you. VUE and I think all of our listeners are so fortunate to have your perspective. Donna, thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing your work and your world and your experience with all of us. I know there will be lots of follow up in terms of questions and conversations and we look forward to hearing more from you in the future.

[Donna Henderson]

Well, thank you so much for having me. Fun conversation. You guys ask great questions.

[Kara]

Thank you Donna. Thank you so much for listening. You can email us with questions, feedback or episode [e-mail] if you want to

[Vanessa]

learn more about what we do to make this whole stage of life less awkward for everyone involved. Our parent membership, our school health ed curriculum, our keynote talks, and more are

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