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- [00:01]
A
Kara. At Great Wolf Lodge, there's adventure for the whole family. I'm excited to check out the lodge in the Poconos, which is close to me. And with 23 lodges across the country, there's probably one near all of you, too. You and your pack can splash away in the indoor water park where it's always a toasty 84 degrees. There's a wave pool, a lazy river and a bottle. Bunch of massive water slides, including ones your family can enjoy all together.
- [00:32]
B
They even have adventure packed attractions from Magi Quest, a live action game that kids can play throughout the lodge, to the Northern Lights Arcade. And there's also a bunch of great dining options and complimentary daily events like nightly dance parties, all under one roof. So bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more@greatwolf.com that's G-R-E-A-T W O L F.com and strengthen the pack.
- [01:02]
A
One of my kids, he informed me that one of their friends who had his boating license was going to take them out on his boat. I was skeptical, and then I said, oh, well, what are you going to go do on the boat? And he said, oh, well, we're going to go jump off some cliffs into the water. At which point the needle fell off the.
- [01:32]
B
Hi, Vanessa.
- [01:33]
A
Cara.
- [01:35]
B
You know, there's this phenomenon that happens generation after generation, and it looks something like this. I'm going to tell my version of it from back in the early 1980s. So my mom really disliked one of my friends. Like, really disliked her. She was not subtle about it. Vanessa. She would refer to her as that girl. Almost to the point where I recognized that the T and the G were supposed to be capitalized like, or the
- [02:09]
A
whole thing was capitalized.
- [02:11]
B
And even if she said her name, it would be like that girl Vanessa. Right? She would never just be Vanessa.
- [02:17]
A
I don't want Liz to ever refer to me as that. That's scary.
- [02:21]
B
I mean, I don't know what it was about her that triggered my mom, but it triggered my mom. And this is a core memory for me from childhood because what I remember is even though I did not understand the reaction that was being generated, I understood one thing very clearly, which was if my mom really didn't like her, then I really did. Like, that was my form of rebellion. Not an atypical form of rebellion for a tween or a teen, but it was an amazing thing. And it's a memory that's really fresh still because I don't know what I found. So compelling about this friendship either. Like, I have no idea, except that my mom was so anti. And so that's the theme of today's podcast, right?
- [03:21]
A
So we're trying to figure out a. How do we handle it when our kids have friends that we don't like or approve of or maybe give us cause for concern? And also understanding why kids are drawn to certain other kids when, for all intents and purposes, from an adult perspective, it's a complete mystery at best. And it's worrying when you go to a deeper level. And we, you know, we've done episodes on shifting friendships and sort of not judging kids, and this is sort of the next level, which is, okay, so what the heck do you do with it all? And, you know, we can start with younger kids because when you think about younger kids, I mean, half the time they're not even playing with each other. They're just sort of playing, you know, the parallel play. They're playing next to each other. And often it has to do with the kids who have toys that they like and maybe even toys that, like, you don't have in your own home. So anything from, like, Nerf guns, which I didn't. I never let my kids have any toy guns to, you know, electronics before you allow electronics to. As I was just sharing last night with a childhood friend of mine and her mother, her mother bought Entenmann's coffee cake to have on Sunday mornings, and there was a no Endeman's coffee cake in my house to be found ever. And so I loved sleeping over there in grade school because I got to eat this delicious breakfast that never appeared on my kitchen counter. So younger kids, there's like a lot of sort of, like, I don't want to say tactical reasons, but fairly, like basic, straightforward, understandable reasons why kids are drawn to certain. Certain kids.
- [05:17]
B
Right? But why, Vanessa, are parents repelled from those kids?
- [05:23]
A
Well, I think the repelling. Sometimes kids are not what we would call well behaved. Right? So some kids, they're not rule followers. They're sort of maybe used to less structure. Maybe they don't kind of listen as well as you've decreed in your own home. Maybe their table manners aren't so great. Maybe they don't even stay at the table. Maybe they refuse to wash their hands when they come in from the playground. Right? There's sort of a. Sometimes it's. There's a sort of a defiance in those friendships that you're like, oh, well, this is a real pain in the neck. Like, I've worked hard to train my kid to follow my rules. And now I've got this other kid in my house and they're not following the rules and it's making my job harder. So, like, that can be sort of a functional repellent when you've got younger kids. At least that was in my experience. I don't know if you had a different experience.
- [06:19]
B
Well, no, I think sort of looking at it through the lens of a pediatrician, really what's happening is that parents are using this behavior that they're seeing in 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 year olds to future cast what those kids are going to be like when they are teenagers and they are telling themselves that if their behavior is disruptive or disrespectful or if they are rule breakers or risk takers or the jokester, that that is going to translate into the troublesome kid. And I don't want my kid to be around that troublesome kid because that kid's gonna be a bad influence on my kid. I actually think that's sort of where it's coming from.
- [07:09]
A
And I, I just found it annoying. I just didn't want a kid. I had four kids of my own. I didn't need a fifth kid in my house who wouldn't listen to what I was telling them to do when the kids were little, when they were younger.
- [07:21]
B
So this is where I wanted to go with it. Which is, of course there is no direct through line. Right. I mean, like, you're right, like annoying is about the extent of it. Oh, and sometimes unsafe. Like there is the occasional kid, little kid who did things that were so terrifying that you're just like, okay, not under my roof. My kid can go to your house, but not under my roof. And then sometimes you're like, if this is okay in your house, I'm not sure my kid can go to your house. Like there's that. Right, Right. But in terms of when you take the safety piece and you move it aside for a second, I do think that people are trying to use current behavior as a predictor of future behavior or current behavior as a predictor of sort of broader risk. And if that's the case and there is broader risk, then we are in a situation where that rationale would serve well. There was no through line in my own personal life. There was no through line. Who was sort of a risk taker, rule breaker when they were young and who ended up living an adolescent or a 20 something life that warranted the red flags. There was no through line there. There was no through line, certainly through the lens of my own mom. And frankly, you know, when patients would come through and talk about it, I can't remember a family where there was a clear sort of, yes, this is a great metric for a kid that you want to keep your kid away from. And this is, I think, the most important piece of this conversation, which is it's completely judgmental and brands another child in a way that does not allow for any of the things we talk about on this podcast constantly. It does not allow for repair, it does not allow for reinvention. It does not allow for recognizing and learning the sort of why a rule is in place and what can happen when you break it. Like when we're so black and white when they're little, I think we do a tremendous disservice to that child. But our own kids too, right?
- [09:29]
A
I mean, I think the one place is safety. Safety and disrespectful behavior are the places I always drew the line. And not that I was like banishing children from my own kids lives, but I was making it clear what my rules were and what my expectations were to that child, respectfully, kindly, appropriately. And then when they left, I reiterated to my kid why I said what I said because it was about safety and respect. So like, that becomes fairly straightforward. It's complicated when you're friends with other parents and like, you don't love what's going on, you gotta navigate that. Fine. Then you get to like the middle school years and these issues become more complicated because yes, it can be about safety and respect and. But all of a sudden there's this phenomenon where certain kids become, and I don't mean this in a sexual way, I mean this in a sort of charismatic way or sort of relational way. They become very seductive. And there are certain kids who become endlessly appealing to your child and potentially other people's children, and you kind of don't get what the appeal is. Like your kid is enthralled by this other kid, right? And you're sitting there thinking like, I don't know, he, he or she looks kind of like ordinary and maybe even irritating or like you don't get it, but you're like, something is so exciting and seductive and enthralling. Your kid just seems to want to be around this other kid. And you're like, God, help me understand what is happening here.
- [11:17]
B
I mean, talk about not being able to predict, right? I don't know about you, but if you gave me a kindergarten lineup and said, who's the kid? Who's going to enthrall your kid in the fifth grade or the seventh grade or the 10th grade? I would get it wrong every time. Right.
- [11:34]
A
So there's a few. We're going to go through like a few buckets of what constitutes an enthralling personality. And to your point, Cara, it can be hard to predict. One of the things that I found is that the kids who don't have a lot of rules at home, who have access to new and exciting opportunities or products or technology, or are given like extra freedom to do and try things, become very exciting friends to kids. Particularly if your own kids under your roof and are living under stricter parameters and rules. The idea of these other kids is really, really interesting.
- [12:18]
B
Right. And you know, we always say that kids tell us by the time they're teenagers or 20 somethings that rules made them feel safe. But that's really a reflective comment. It's the ability to look back and appreciate the structure and the safety of that structure in the moment. Again, it's the rare child, never say never. But like, I can't think of one who was like, these rules, thank you so much. It's.
- [12:49]
A
I just got mine a decade later. My 23 year old turned to me recently and was like, so you know what I really appreciate, like when I was younger that you were really strict about rules. And I was laughing because I was like, oh my God, he's literally telling me this a decade later.
- [13:08]
B
And you know, the lack of rules appeals differently to different kids based on their temperament. Right. So there are rule following kids who are acutely uncomfortable in a rul. Less boundless home where it's sort of a free for all. A lot of I'm hesitating because a lot of people say a Lord of the Flies type situation, but I think that's a little dramatic, that categorization. But when they're just no rules, you know, for some kids, that feels really uncomfortable. And there are plenty of kids who will simply remove themselves from that situation. They will go to a play date, they will experience that, and then when the next playdate gets scheduled, they'll be like, nope, not going to go to that. So there's some self limitation there based on temperament. But for the most part it does become really intriguing when you have a combination of a charismatic kid who has like whatever that that thing is that you were describing, Vanessa.
- [14:07]
A
Right. And we gotta talk about charisma because some people just got it and other kids wanna be around them.
- [14:13]
B
That's right. And when you have that kid and that kid has a little bit more freedom. It can look completely intoxicating and aspirational. We'll be right back, but first a word from our sponsors.
- [14:32]
A
Cara At Great Wolf Lodge, there's adventure for the whole family. I'm excited to check out the lodge in the Poconos, which is close to me, and with 23 lodges across the country, there's probably one near all of you too. You and your pack can splash away in the indoor water park where it's always a toasty 84 degrees and there's a wave pool, a lazy river and a bunch of massive water slides, including ones your family can enjoy all together.
- [15:03]
B
They even have adventure packed attractions from Magi Quest, a live action game that kids can play throughout the lodge, to the Northern Lights Arcade. And there's also a bunch of great dining options and complimentary daily events like nightly dance parties, all under one roof. So bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more@greatwolf.com that's G-R-E-A-T W O L F.com and strengthen the pack. At DSW we ask the important questions like what shoes are you going to wear? Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season or just planning the ultimate vacay, the right shoes can make or break an rsvp. So own the moment. You've got big plans and we've got just the shoes at the perfect price of course. Get ready to get ready with Designer Shoe Warehouse. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today and let us surprise you.
- [16:03]
A
Now that it is finally spring, I've been so excited to get some new happy clothes. I love my new organic Cotton Fisherman boxy cropped cardigan so much that I wore it on my trip to visit Car Zakara in la.
- [16:18]
B
You wore it every day.
- [16:19]
A
I did.
- [16:20]
B
Quince makes it easy to refresh your everyday this spring. Vanessa with pieces that feel as good as they look like my new Quince leggings and sports bras, which are amazing and everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you're paying for quality and craftsmanship but not brand markup.
- [16:44]
A
Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quins.com awkward for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com awkward for free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com awkward so sometimes it's personality, right? Like I don't mean to say that like everyone has sort of equivalently charismatic and appealing personalities. And it's just whether they have rules or they don't have rules. Like often there's a sort of stacking of situations. Sometimes you've got kids who are super charismatic and don't have a lot of rules. Sometimes you have kids who have older siblings and have been exposed or can expose their friends to new and exciting things. You know, my house, when I was growing up, my parents allowed my older brother to run R rated movies. And my younger brother and I and our friends were given exposure to those movies at younger ages than was appropriate. And it was pretty exciting to come to our house because you got to watch movies that your parent was never going to rent at their house. So that's like an example which might
- [18:12]
B
have been strategic on your parents part.
- [18:14]
A
I don't think it was the 80s, Cara. I don't think there was a lot of strategy there. I think it was like, oh, what movie do you want to rent from the video store? That one. Corkies. Sure. Let's let your five and seven year old siblings watch Porkies with you and their friends who are also sleeping over watch Porkies as well. Weekend at Bernie's. Absolutely. That's a great idea.
- [18:39]
B
So interesting. And you bring up this very interesting point because we're going to, I, you know, I promise we'll give some tools about how to manage this. But I want to set the scene and in setting the scene I want to put a magnifying lens on your situation. Vanessa, you came from a structured home.
- [18:58]
A
There were rules. Very, very. There were rules. There were lots of rules.
- [19:02]
B
There was just, this was one corner in which the rules were more lax. And I think this is a really important element to this conversation because sometimes we will oversimplify what's happening under someone else's roof. If I had come home and said I can go to Vanessa's, mind you, I'm like seven years older than you, so. And still probably not watching R rated movies if I could, I'm going to Vanessa's and we're going to watch Porky's, the inference that my mom would probably have made would have been one of there are no rules in that house. And that is again to the point of not fair in the way we simplify and, and try to fit certain families or certain situations into general buckets. You don't fit in the rule list bucket. We you fit in a very structured bucket that had one area of flexibility. And when it comes to that kid and your kid, the piece of advice number one is start getting into the weeds a little bit more before you completely throw out the baby with the bathwater.
- [20:16]
A
Right. So that's sort of like that amorphous area where kids are having more independence and developmentally and in terms of their brain maturation, they are really turning towards peers. Right. We've talked endlessly about how the limbic system is lit up by peers around the middle school age. The limbic system is mature. The prefrontal cortex is not. They're excited, pleasure seeking, novelty seeking, motivation. Right. It's all very exciting. And they're talking with your shoulders. Talking with my shoulders. I just need my mom's shoulder pads. And they're drawn to that. And that is appropriate, right? That is correct. It doesn't make your kid sort of influenceable. It doesn't make your kid lame or not A strong or like a beta. This is developmentally appropriate to be drawn to peers, to be excited by new experiences, to be frankly seduced by what's happening around them. And so at this stage, stage, our job is to help them build the tools of self reflection, which doesn't always work, but we can still work on building the tools, understanding what's happening in their brains, like what's appealing to them. And to your point earlier, Cara, starting the skill of some refusal skills, right? You're not refusing, hey, you can't hang out with that kid. But, hey, when that kid says, let's go shoplift, let's talk about what you can do or say to get yourself out of the situation. I'm not saying you can't hang out with that friend. I'm saying it's against our family rules to break the law. So here's how I'm going to help you think through what you can do or say.
- [22:07]
B
Right? So what you've done there, Vanessa, is you've turned a damning situation bad kid. You can't hang out. Which, of course, we all know where that goes. It goes to let's hang out, let's hang out.
- [22:19]
A
That goes to super gluing oneself to
- [22:22]
B
the correct super glue with no glue remover. Yes. You go from that to a teachable moment. Now, for those who are listening, going, great, find a teachable moment. But, like, there's teachable and then there's what do I do? My kid is begging to go sit sleepover at this kid's house. Right? Like, how do you bridge that Gap. This is where I would come in with piece of advice number two, which is I think it's really not that different from the advice we give around any other third rail topic. Right. Substances, sex, body, I mean all of it. Right. All the big issues that come up in these years. This is right there squarely in the middle, which is I'm going to try it one way. I'm going to see how that conversation goes one way. And if I don't succeed at that conversation or if I succeed at that conversation and then I realize I made the wrong choice as the adult in the situation, I am going to take a do over. So when it comes to the charismatic kid who seems to have a little bit of power over yours and you are really questioning what to do, I mean, you're the parent. You get to make the choice, do they get to sleepover or not? Do they get to have the play date or not? Do they get to do the after school hangout or not? Do you encourage them to be on the same sports team or not? Right. There are like a million different versions of this. And then you get to decide also what is my path here as the parent and then how much am I letting my kid in on my decision tree. So listen, I'm not that comfortable with you sleeping over. I just don't know the family that well. But sure, you can go hang out. And I just so you know, like, as we get to know the family better, I think I'll be more comfortable. That's letting your kid in on your decision making.
- [24:20]
A
They may without judgment.
- [24:22]
B
Right.
- [24:22]
A
You're not saying, oh, this family, I've got real big concerns here, kiddo. You're just saying I got to get to know them better. So it's a neutral way of managing.
- [24:32]
B
Yes. And we should circle back to when you might need to say, I've got real concerns here. So we'll put a pin in that for a second. But like, I think that's a healthy middle ground. Your kid may not be like, mom, that's fantastic. I love understanding how you're thinking about this and I'm down for this. They will far more likely fight you on it. They are missing out on something. Everyone else is sleeping over. It's not fair. Why do you, you know, like this is part of their job is to push back on us. Likewise, if we hold them back too much and we don't allow them any interaction, there's a really strong argument for not building the skills to manage the situation. This is not to say that you should put your kids in harm's way. You should not. If you ever worry about safety, this argument does not apply. But when it comes to navigating bigger personalities that are making different sets of choices, if you as the parent swoop in, or you as the trusted adult swoop in and try to do all the decision making for them by removing them from every situation, there will be a threshold moment after which your kid lacks the. The skills to manage these dynamics on their own. And that is a disservice. So there's this, like, you got to figure out what your middle ground is. And you and I both know, and you know, if you've been listening to this podcast long enough, you know, too, you're going to mess it up. You're going to hit it sometimes and not other times.
- [26:10]
A
And I think it also depends on whether you feel like you have a partnership with the other parent in this situation. So. So I was recently away with another parent and her son, who's a good friend of mine, and we were laughing about how we have really different styles and how, you know, in my house, we make certain choices about what the boys are allowed to do and where they go and all that. And how in her house they have other rules. But we're not judging each other. We're open about it. We're not hiding it. I will say to her, hey, you know what? I love you so much, but, like, actually, he's really not allowed to do that. Or he's, like, not allowed to go there and vice versa. She's like, hey, I know you're, like, keeping rules, but, like, also, you're making it boring. Can you please let them. And we're having an open dialogue. And you're not always going to have that. I'm not saying that often. You don't. Or maybe there's even tension or there's a history in the relationship, whatever it is, but when you do have it, use that partnership with the other adult because it allows you to move past that first layer of like, what the hell are they thinking? To, oh, this makes more sense. Or I have a partner in conversation to kind of navigate this process.
- [27:25]
B
Okay, I have two things to say on this point. The first is the couching. And I do this too, when it cracks me up. The couching in I love you so much. But. But, I mean, it is like, I think I utter that line at least once a day.
- [27:39]
A
Oh, well, my husband says, I mean, not to be rude, but. And then I know he's about to be Extraordinarily rude. Yeah.
- [27:46]
B
Okay, so that's been around for a while. I love you so much, but it feels like it's new and everywhere. Sort of like 100% anyway, so there's that. The second thing I want to say is the piece that relates to what you were just saying around how you share information with another parent and how you remain open to what they believe. This is the best part of the learning curve of raising kids, in my opinion. Right. When you hear not just what someone else lets their kid do, but why, it's some. I've changed my mind so many times on account of that.
- [28:30]
A
So I have a good story. One of my kids, I asked what he was doing after school. The weather was beautiful. It was finally warm. And he informed me that one of their friends who had his boating license was going to take them out on his boat. I was skeptical. And then I said, oh, well, what are you going to go do do on the boat? And he said, oh, well, we're going to go jump off some cliffs into the water at W. At which point the needle fell off the record. And I said, I'm really sorry, but I don't feel comfortable letting you do that. And, no, you. You can't go. And there was hemming and hawing, and then there was a text thread with some other moms, and some of whom had had some information and some of whom had had other information, and everybody made different decisions. And one of the parents who was closer with the parent of the kid who had the boating license, called the father, got more information, got more detail, had a dialogue, felt comfortable, allowed the kid to go not cliff diving, but on the boat. Right. So, like, that was their way of handling it, which I completely respect. My way was like, no, just no. And that was, you know, my kid accepted that for that particular moment. So, like, I appreciate how this other parent handled it. It's not how I handled it. I made a judgment in the moment and a decision, and I feel comfortable with how. How I did. But there's not one way to go about it.
- [30:16]
B
And sometimes it comes down to how much faith do you have that your kid is going to be able to make the right decision in the moment. So there's this balance you have to strike, right? On the one hand, I want to expose my kid to these situations that builds their resilience and. And makes them a little grittier and helps them understand how to stand on their own two feet. But on the other hand, I have to know who my kid is and I have to know how they're going to make decisions so that if I'm pretty sure they're at a stage in their life where they're not gonna make the smart decision, I need to pull back the rules a little bit more.
- [30:50]
A
So, Kara, we've. We sort of done the middle school, like, charismatic, a little more freedom, a little sort of amorphous, Je ne sais quoi, like, your kid is enthralled. And I just want to mention one thing before we age up to the next level, which is crushes are a big part of this age. And crushes are not just romantic, they're often platonic, where kids just want to crawl inside another kid and like, be them, be with them, be seen by them, be like around them at every moment. And that also might be mystifying. Like, you know, what do you see in this kid? And you're not necessarily gonna have the answer and your kid might not be able to articulate it. And frankly, you kind of gotta let it go. Unless you have concerns about their emotional safety or physical safety or that they're, you know, up to behaviors. Like sometimes it's just like, I don't get it, but okay. And that's like a part of this stage of life.
- [31:56]
B
Yeah. I mean, as we transition the conversation to older kids, what I will say to that point is in middle school, you have eyes on who the other kid is and you can have all those feelings. And in high school, I mean, sometimes you know the players, but so often you certainly don't know the parents of the players unless it's a follow along friend, but you often don't even know the players and you're reacting to a feeling you get when your kid talks about another kid, or a feeling you get when you see something on social media or you hear other parents or you are watching a game and you're witnessing behavior that's happening on a field or on a sideline. So it's super interesting to think about sort of how to take advantage of having a front row seat in middle school in a way that you do not have when they're older.
- [32:56]
A
Right. Life starts to become behind a sort of filter or screen when they get older and you.
- [33:02]
B
Or wall, like a very thick cement
- [33:05]
A
wall, a cinder block wall. Um, so I want to start with not a specific story, but a general story from my own growing up, which is my older brother, who's a very lovely, kind person, had a group of friends in high school who were, except for one or two of them, very lovely Young men, they were kind and warm and friendly and kind to, you know, me and my brother, who were younger siblings. And they were also kids who were considered by teachers and many other parents to be not such great kids because they weren't doing well in school and their hair was a certain way, or they, you know, were out late at night doing things they weren't supposed to be doing, or they had, quote, reputations. And I'm not saying they were perfect and they definitely got into trouble and they broke rules and they did things they, they weren't supposed to. However, they were very nice, kind human beings who have grown into, and I can say this now, 35 years hence, very kind, lovely adults. So I want us to think a lot about separating the behavior from the child. Right. Any child development expert will beg of us to do that. I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do, but I want to separate the things that teenagers do from who teenagers are. As we have this conversation about concerns, mystification, worry about kids and the friends that they choose.
- [34:56]
B
Yeah. And I think it's, you know, the kernel of that sits back in the younger years. You see that this is not new to the teenage years. It's just exaggerated in the teenage years. But it's, it's a really good point. And it brings up a secondary point, which is success in one arena does not necessarily predict success in another. So you can have a kid who is super well liked by teachers, who is not super well liked by peers, or a kid who is the exact opposite or. And often, often when there's academic stress and jealousy at play, it is those two things are at odds. Right. It's really hard. And then you've got the guy who was my prom date junior year of high school, who I'm still friends with, and his wife is phenomenal and one of my best friends, and he was like the best looking guy in high school and a super athlete and incredibly smart and nice. And you were like, I want you not to be nice because you have all these other things going for you, but you're nice too. That's ridiculous. Right. And Right.
- [36:11]
A
So those kids are not a mystery. You're like, oh, I understand why you want to be around this kid all the time. They're like, amazing in every way.
- [36:19]
B
Great. Yes. And they're also unicorns a little bit. In the same way that the kids who have none of it, none of the levers are pulling, are also unicorns. Most kids are somewhere in between. Right.
- [36:33]
A
And I want to go Back to the point you made about the kids who are appealing to adults, right? They present well to adults. But when you say to your kid, oh, what a nice kid. Or like, why aren't you friends with them? Your kid will say to you literally, literally, oh, adults love that kid. But actually like they're a jerk or they're not nice or they're whatever, whatever,
- [36:58]
B
or you get the very blunt, not a good kid.
- [37:01]
A
As my mom likes to say, you can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your nose. You can't pick your friend's nose.
- [37:09]
B
I knew I loved your mom.
- [37:11]
A
Yes, you guys have a similar sense of humor, so it doesn't quite translate, but essentially you can't pick your kids friends. And part of the reason you can't pick your kids friends is because there's things about young people, particularly when we don't have the same visibility, that we don't see or understand. And we're like, why don't you want to be friends with that kid? And they have 10 really good reasons why they don't want to be friends with that kid. So it's like yet another reason why we can't pick. Now we see some things about kids that were concerned about and relationships we're concerned about. And that is a place where we can begin to have that conversation.
- [37:51]
B
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B
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A
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- [39:30]
B
Expedia and visit Scotland invite you to come Step into centuries of history that await in Scotland. Scotland Castles steeped in legend Walk along cobblestone streets. Come share the warmth of stories passed down through generations. This is a place with a past that is fully present today and all yours to explore. Plan your Scottish escape today@expedia.com visitscotland I wanna dial it back half a step to just say that it works in all directions. Like I was surprised. I thought I was going to come at parenting a certain way based upon my work experience. And when I was parenting through the teen years, I was surprised at my own reaction. I wanted my kids to gravitate towards the kids that had charisma because I felt that that was a skill, an EQ type skill that would serve my kids well if they understood how another kid was sort of operating in the world in a really successful way. My kids would sometimes be like, yeah, but that kid, you know, I happen to always pick the one who. They'd be like, yeah, but there's like no moral back backbone to that person. I go, what do you mean? They're just. And then they tell me something, I'd be like, oh, oh, okay, that's what you mean. And by the way, that kid, the one I'm thinking of, grew a fabulous moral backbone. It just took a little longer because the charisma was the engine that was helping them coast through the early years, the younger and the tween years. So much so that they didn't really need, you know, I mean, grit and resilience come at different times for different kids partially because of who they are, situationally so. But I found myself wanting my kids to gravitate towards charisma because I thought there was a lot to learn. And I also found myself wanting my kids to gravitate towards the opposite. I would see a kid, this is true story. I mean, all of our stories are true stories, but this is a, like a really meaningful one. When my daughter was in the seventh or eighth grade, I went to a music concert that she was performing in. She was in a band. And they did the band, the orchestra, and the chorus in one giant performance every holiday season. And I remember she was playing in her band and, like, playing 90s rock, which was pretty cool. And she wasn't a particularly cool kid. And so that was like. I was like, wow, she can. She can do this on stage. And then the chorus came up, and the chorus was sort of like, to type. It was like, sort of a group of kids who. It was like Glee. There was this kid and that kid and all the things. And there was this one kid who kind of leapt out at me. She was super tall and lanky, and she just had, like, a fellow deep nerd connection with me. And after the performance, I was like, why aren't you friends with this one? And she just said to me, we have not one thing in common. And she's just. Her energy is really quiet, and I'm just. Just not that interested in her. Flash forward, who is my daughter's literal soul sister, who, without her in this world, I actually cannot imagine my daughter existing. It is the girl who was the tall, gawky one at the back of the chorus. And it wasn't that I pointed her out. It was that at the time, there was nothing about their universes that intersected. And over time, whatever that thing was that I picked up on, it just must have resonated with my daughter as well. And we see this. We see the arc of this. Especially in the teen years, we cannot predict. One thing we can do, though, is we can blow it for our kids. We can try to push someone hard enough on our kid that our kid actually is forced to say to us, no way, and then walk away, back off.
- [43:51]
A
So sometimes it's about shared experiences. My kids have been, you know, on sports teams with kids, and that's like, a really easy, nice way to form relationships. Or they're in classes with another kid, or they're in a club with another kid. And so having shared connection, shared experiences, repeated exposure allows kids to open their minds and their hearts a little bit to someone who initially, maybe they weren't that interested in. So that's one way kids develop kind of more expansive relationships. Another thing that I've noticed is that as they move, like, freshman, sophomore year, freshman year is really, really complicated. Like, their kids are all trying to figure it out. And you've got kids at massively different ends of the puberty spectrum. I mean, some of them look 30 and some of them look three. I mean, it's like. It's unbelievable how physically different they are. And academically they're all over the place, and the friendships are changing. And if you're at a school where new kids have come in, everything gets thrown up in the air. So freshman year is just like.
- [45:03]
B
And socially, they're.
- [45:05]
A
I mean, you've got some kids who don't go out a single weekend all of freshman year. You have other kids who are, hi,
- [45:12]
B
come sit by me.
- [45:14]
A
Who are constantly finding opportunities to socialize and meet people at other schools and go places and get themselves invited to parties, right?
- [45:22]
B
There's just.
- [45:23]
A
Freshman year is just a complete patchwork quilt of adolescent development. And so you gotta kind of put that aside. Sophomore year, things start to shift a little bit. Maybe friendships solidify, sometimes groups solidify, and we can talk about that a little bit. And then as junior and senior year, what I noticed, which is so fascinating is all of a sudden the kids who had sort of, like, had their group or had their friends, all of a sudden they're interested in other kids. They're interested in other groups. They're all of a sudden mentioning people you've never heard of before. All of a sudden, that kid that they dismissed two years ago when you were like, why aren't you friends with that one? All of a sudden, that person's very interesting to them. So it's not static, right? These four years are just massively huge in terms of development in a million different ways. And sometimes we gotta just sit on the sidelines and watch things evolve, which is not an easy thing to do, but fascinating if you pay close attention.
- [46:33]
B
And I'll add that there is a phenomenon that seems to happen at the end of sophomore year and the beginning of junior year of high school in particular, which is that there are a group of kids who have been on a certain social pace right there. There are kids who are moving socially very quickly. There are kids who are moving socially very slowly. And up until the end of sophomore year, it really diverges. Those two paths go in very different directions, and the kids do not really connect socially in any way. There is something that seems to happen in a very predictable kind of way where at the end of sophomore year, early junior year, they come back. There's some sort of. And it's what you're describing, but it's. It's almost like a. I don't know what words to even put on it. Like, the kids themselves are willing to forgive the reputation or forgive the assumptions they have made. And it is so annualized. Like, I. I just see it over and over and over again. And I think it must be a combination of age and stage and also the structure of high school, right. Junior year, whether you're an academic kid or not, you're all in it. It's just a harder year. And there's something that seems to kick in where it just is the beginning of we're all on the same team. It's not perfect. And there are a lot of social hiccups and there are a lot of dramas and there are a lot of. But in general, when you pull the lens back, the phenomenon of I would never talk to that person really starts to dissolve.
- [48:20]
A
So we've talked about the nice stuff. We've talked about the opening of minds and the social willingness to kind of explore new friendships. Let's talk about the hard stuff, which is your kid has chosen to align his or herself with a kid who gives you real pause either because they are not doing well in school. Maybe they're not working hard, maybe they're not handing in assignments, maybe they're even skipping school, right? So there's the sort of like rule breaking in the academic setting. Then you've got the kids who are rule breaking outside of the academic setting. They're experimenting with substances. Maybe they're driving without a license. Maybe there's things going on socially, sexually, you know, in a party setting that you're hearing about that gives you real concern. That's another bucket. Maybe you're concerned about the way this kid is treating your child or your kid and other people's kids. So these are sort of three scenarios that come to mind. And it's really, really, really tricky. But the nice thing is we live in a society these days which is very different from a society we grew up in, which is conversations about healthy and unhealthy and abusive relationships are actually part of the conversation these days. So, Cara, where do you want to start?
- [49:54]
B
I mean, I think we start where we left off, you know, at the beginning of the conversation, which is you're allowed to see this as a safety issue. We're not just giving you permission. That is a healthy lens through which to see it. Like when we teach in our curriculum about healthy relationships, we really teach about how to identify the safety flags. I mean, down to Vanessa, we have lessons in kindergarten and first grade that literally look at safety flags in terms of interactions with other people. And this is not sexual. This is just when people are asking you to engage in. In behaviors, do things, dares, you know, that. That you don't want to do. And so I think it really does boil down to safety. But it's nice to pull this last thread through the conversation. It is essentially, what do you do if, you know, as the adult in your kid's life, you know they shouldn't be around X kid or X group of kids. And again, like I say this with no judgment. It's not that you think they're horrible humans, it's that the situation feels unsafe. And viewed through that lens, the decision tree becomes easier. The conversations become easier because it's really hard when you come at a kid with, I don't like that girl, right? Capital T, capital G. What's her kid gonna do? They're gonna say, well, I do, because they do. But if you can frame it as, this is not about whether I like them or not like them. I truly don't judge them. But then you can't judge them. Here's my concern. I see them making these decisions, or I hear about them making these decisions, or I'm worried about them making these decisions. And if it was you making these decisions, here would be the reason why I would hurl myself in front of you and try to stop you from making these decisions. And the thing that ends up coming up in these conversations is a navigation along the path of what you've heard or what you think is going on versus what's really going on.
- [52:13]
A
Right. So when it comes to safety, it's a hundred thousand million percent within your right as a parent to make a determination and to set a limit. However, you can't just go based on what you've heard third hand from another parent, through another parent, through someone else's kid. Like, it does require you to be in conversation with your kid about what's actually happening. Now, that doesn't mean you're going to get a straight answer from them, but it does mean you're giving them the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to give their side of what's happening before you lay down a rule. Ultimately, though, if you are concerned and you are worried, it is your right to lay down that rule until you have more information, better information, whatever it is, because that is your final, final job as a parent is your kid's safety.
- [53:10]
B
But we have two complicating factors. One is the age 18.
- [53:15]
A
Yep.
- [53:15]
B
And the other is sex. And I think we should call out these two complications very specifically. And I'll start with the age 18, because if I had a penny for every kid I have heard say, I'm now 18, you're not the boss of me. And it's complicated because In a literal manner. When we look at the way the legal system sets up sort of the definition of adulthood, and we've done episodes about this, it is a very gray scale between 18 and 21 and even 25 for certain things. But there are a number of things, not substances, but there are a number of things that they have the right to do and choose on their own. When they're 18 and you do lose your power, so to speak, in the dynamic when they have their 18th birthday, they can be arrested after the age of 18. And, you know, it's not a situation that involves calling their parent and having you come and pick them up and do their bidding. They. They have the right to medical privacy and the right to not release their medical records to you. I mean, there are a lot of things that start throwing roadblocks in your way when they turn 18. And so this is not the reason to do this, but it is one more reason why you want to engage them in conversation, is they will one day turn 18. And the whole goal here is to help them make the better decisions for themselves, not to kneecap them and have them turn 18 and have them incapable of making these choices. So that's the first roadblock. The second roadblock is sex. And here's where I land on the sex of it all. Kids will, at some point, for the most part, develop sex, sexual curiosity, and they will want to be in sexual relationships. Not all, but most. And this can happen young for some, and it can happen in young adulthood for others. And there's a very wide spectrum. And it's a really common thing for a parent to try to delay sexual experimentation because they're worried about all the downstream consequences by throwing down a gauntlet and saying, you cannot have sex. And when a parent does that, or another trusted adult does that, what they've done is they've essentially shut off the conversational spigot because one day that kid probably will have sex, and then where are you in the conversation? So, you know, when you're looking at not wanting your kid to be around another kid and. And that scenario is because they're dating and I don't want them to start having sex, it is really important to check yourself at the door and recognize this is a long game. And they are going to have romantic and sexual relationships for many years to come, and you want to be a part of those conversations. And if you try to stop them, the relationship now and not engage in conversation around why or the issues or the concerns, independent of the person, make it about your kid, then if you don't do it that way, then you will inevitably shut down much bigger conversations in the future.
- [56:56]
A
And let's land with when we have real concerns, not about, like, if they're having sex or not having sex or like, but real concerns about the health and safety of the relationship, right? So if it's a friendship where a friend is treating your kid really poorly, or frankly, if it's your kid treating someone else's kid really poorly, Building the skill of understanding what makes a healthy, respectful, caring relationship, whether it's romantic or platonic, these kids are aware of the language. But things like a controlling relationship, a coercive relationship, God forbid, a physically abusive or violent relationship. If you see your kids sticking in a friendship or in a friend group, even though you can tell it's making them feel terrible about themselves. This is something that comes up in moments of transition, you know, from middle school to high school, from high school to college. We need to be our kids sounding boards. And this is a big reason why. Leaving our judgment out earlier, because we gotta be relied on and trustworthy. When these moments come up and our kids say, I'm really unhappy, or like, I think I'm in a bad relationship, or my friends are making me feel terrible, Being a support system to them requires us to sometimes sit and listen and hear things that are hard and upsetting. Sometimes we say, oh, well, didn't you do that to them last week? And they'll say, oh, yeah, I guess so. Okay. And they kind of move on. But sometimes they're being treated really badly. And being there for kids in that moment is so painful as parents, but so important because sometimes there's nowhere else for our kids to turn but us. And holding up a mirror and saying, how does this make you feel? How do you feel about yourself right now? Who in the school building is someone you can trust? Who is one friend who will listen to you and make you feel good? Who will give you a hug during the day when you're having a crummy day, right? Like finding out, does my kid have these people? Or are the people they're spending time with only reliable because of status or access or, you know, optics, all of those things. And it's hard because, you know, popularity is a big issue, but popularity does not make for meaningful, respectful friendships. Always. Sometimes, sure. But often it doesn't play out that way, right?
- [59:37]
B
And what you're. What you're hinting at is the shame that they also sometimes feel when, you know, we'll sometimes get into conversations with the kids in our life and. And we'll ask a question in a certain way and we'll realize maybe they don't have the person or maybe they don't have the right person and they know it and they feel ashamed about it. And it's a great place to start. There's nothing to be ashamed of. You're still searching for that person. Don't worry. We've got this. Let me help give you some of the tools of what to look for. I can't make the friends for you. I can't pick the friends for you. But I can be here to answer any questions you have. I promise I will do everything in my power never to judge who you choose. But if I ever see anything that I think makes you unsafe, I am going to leap in front of that moving train and I will make it super clear to you. But I will tell you, it's about your safety.
- [60:44]
A
Yeah. And normalizing that. We shed friendships and we find new friendships. You know that it's not a static reality. Kids feel this incredible pressure to have a best friend and hold that best friend and for things to never change. And as we've talked about on other episodes, it's normal for things to shift and change. And as adults in our own lives, things shift and change. And so being open with our kids about our own self reflection, about relationships we've had, how they've morphed, how we've forged new relationships, that's really critical for kids to see, particularly Cara, in that moment you just described, when they're adrift and they don't feel anchored by that really special, trustworthy relationship, letting them know, you know what, kiddo? I've been through that too. I've had these moments. And here are the ways I sort of went ahead and built new relationships. It lets them know it's. It's not something to be ashamed of. It's a normal part of sort of human existence.
- [61:43]
B
So you want to hear a funny end to the story we began with about that girl? About that girl. I'm going to see her this weekend. We prevailed. Ha.
- [61:56]
A
Liz.
- [61:57]
B
I mean, we stayed friends and my mom came to really appreciate and love her. Because sometimes when you meet a kid when they are not at their peak of maturity, they are still trying to figure it out for themselves. Sometimes they don't look like all that. And yet my mom. My mom eventually gave over to the fact that my call was right and her call was wrong. And it's just a funny. It's a funny moment that sort of we all reflect on. We all own it. My mom included. And yes, she is still all these years later. It's not 35 like you Vanessa, it's a little more. But she's in the inner circle.
- [62:53]
A
Oh so girl that girl. Suspend judgment, get curious, open up conversations. Don't be afraid to set limits and rules when you have concerns. And remember, kids are not their behavior. Separate the kid from the behavior so that you can have more productive, more engaged conversations with your kids. Good luck. Thank you so much for listening. You can email us with questions, feedback or episode requests at. Podcast
- [63:29]
B
if you want to learn more about what we do to make this whole stage of life less awkward for everyone involved. Our parent membership, our school health ed curriculum, our keynote talks, and more are
- [63:42]
A
all@lessawkward.com and if you want products that make puberty so much more comfortable, visit myumla.com.
- [63:58]
B
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
- [64:00]
A
I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com.