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- [00:00]
A
Hello and welcome to the Thriving Kids Podcast with your host, me, Dr. Dave Anderson. This is a podcast from the Child Mind Institute that helps you raise emotionally healthy kids. Today we're talking about stress in the first couple years of parenting with Dr. Lauren Hughes, a board certified pediatrician, mother of three, and a strong advocate for realistic evidence based approaches to early childhood health. In this episode, you'll hear why maternal stress matters, how it shows up for both parent and child, and. And what you can do to support healthy development without getting pulled into parenting traps. Let's get into it. So I'll just say our team found you because we literally had a directive where we said we want to go find people who give incredible information and also are incredible communicators that we can find online. And then our team brought me selections of four videos which we only had to watch one of your videos to be like, we want to interview this person. Tell us how you, you got to this work. Because you are a pediatrician by training, which doesn't necessarily mean you're necessarily going to be engaged in public education messaging. So how did you get here?
- [01:09]
B
Oh. Oh, that's a good one. So I have always been very interested in teaching. I've always enjoyed teaching. As a kid I was a swim lessons instructor. Then in college I was a nanny. And then I worked in an aftercare program for severely emotionally disturbed kids. And so like, we did a lot of education there. In medical school, I was part of this student tutor group where I taught As a second year student, I helped teach first year med students. And then in residency, I won this residency teacher of the year award. And so teaching has always been natural to me. Yeah, I have students that rotate with me now that I am an attending. And so education and teaching people has never been difficult for me. That has something I've always been very natural at. And social media was an accident. It was entirely unintentional. I started it whenever I started my practice to kind of get the word out about, about my practice. And then I was like, man, you know, I really, I hear a lot of the same complaints and the same questions and I feel like if I could get some of this information out, maybe it would help parents not have these same questions over and over. You know, my bread and butter and my simple facts are like, not that I, you know, that's not common knowledge. And so I just started teaching and I always joke that I just yell at my phone and people enjoy listening. And so here we are.
- [02:43]
A
Right? I, I really like the ending of it. Being you like yelling at your phone and people enjoy listening. I like to think that seems to
- [02:51]
B
be the long and short of it.
- [02:54]
A
Well, part of the reason why I liked giving educator talks early in my career was, you know, with educators and parents was I just liked making 90s TV show references, like, as examples in things, and then finding that that seems. Seemed to get me invited back even more so than the quality of the information. So, okay, so you're starting yelling into a phone and I mean, like, it doesn't seem like this is yet one of those courses you would buy on Instagram or TikTok where you'd be like, learn how to become a great influencer just by yelling into your phone.
- [03:24]
B
I would not be the one teaching that one.
- [03:26]
A
Right. But at the same time, I mean, this also, I find this to be true of so many communicators in the field where really a sense that like, you know what you know and you've known it for quite some time. And so even when you think you are sharing the mundane in somewhat of a relatable way, it is actually transformative for folks. It.
- [03:44]
B
Yes. And that is one of the things that I've embraced where I'm like, man, this is just so basic. Like, just something as simple as like what a fever is. And like, for me, I'm like, this isn't even a thought. But I realized like, that that is, that is something that a lot of people don't understand. And I mean, you know, I feel like that's true of any expert, right? That like, your, your simplistic is someone else's mind blowing. And, and so like, you know, for example, I'll give you like, whenever I learned how to correctly cut an onion off of Instagram, okay. And like, I.
- [04:22]
A
First of all, I'm not sure I know. So therefore, you can cut an onion
- [04:27]
B
without like the tears. You have to keep the root intact. And it. So how to cut it so you don't get it doesn't release the chemical that makes you cry. And you know, I know such a
- [04:40]
A
therapeutic experience for me because I'll be like, I mean, let me just say I'm a crier.
- [04:44]
B
I just need to cry for this. Right?
- [04:45]
A
I mean, like, I, like, there are multiple songs that can bring me to tears very, very easily, ranging from like, Blessed Union of Souls to even like some really good Ozzy Osbourne. So like, I'm just saying, like, there's, there's a lot of crying that happening. But like, when I'm cutting an onion, I'll Often, like, try to call up, like, people I want to remember in my life. Like, use these tears, you know, like,
- [05:05]
B
use them to, like. Like, we're not gonna waste them.
- [05:08]
A
But you're telling me. Cause what I'm reacting to early in what you said is that, like, I feel like this also relates across professions in that, like, you were in the school or program for youth having emotional concerns and did not decide to go into that side of the field. I, on the other hand, was at summer camps and that. And then was like, this is where I want to be. I spend my life telling parents that they can sit with their child's anxiety, but meanwhile, if my kid gets a fever, I'm like, where is the Tylenol? Like, we need to get this thing to go away immediately. And you're telling me that if I was to watch that video, I would see something different.
- [05:42]
B
Watch which video?
- [05:43]
A
If I was to watch the video about fevers, would I suddenly decide that running for the Tylenol is not necessarily what I must do?
- [05:51]
B
Yep, you would.
- [05:52]
A
I see. I see. Got it. So people are going to Google that immediately. But, but tell me just in general, the topics that you generally speak about the most or the things that you find are the information that people are clamoring for the most. What kinds of topics?
- [06:07]
B
Honestly, the basics of, of what I get the most, like, oh, my gosh, thank you. Is the weird but normal things kids do. You know, the, the, like, the, the crunching that four month olds do, the growling that toddlers will walk around and do, like, those very basic. To me, honestly, I feel like they, you know, like, fake coughing should be a developmental milestone. And like, a lot of that where it's just a lot of reassurance of, like, kids can do some weird things and it's not all, like, most of the time it's fine.
- [06:45]
A
Right. They're. They're actually testing out, in most cases, just like, what gets attention to the world, what their body could sound like. All kinds of stuff.
- [06:53]
B
Exactly. You know, they're. They're doing this because they have realized that they have this thing attached and their brain can tell it to do something, and it does it. And that is fascinating.
- [07:02]
A
Yep.
- [07:03]
B
Say their tongue, like, all of that.
- [07:04]
A
You mean this is not. And for. For those of us who are listening to the Thriving Kids podcast, I should say you placed your hand in front of your eyes, perhaps blocking a light source, which for many parents is like something they've seen in a video on the awesome spectrum and are kind of like, well, what does that mean like they're doing this? Because they're clearly stimming and what is that? And I'll. Yeah, yeah.
- [07:29]
B
And a lot of times they're just like discovering that their hands move the way that they want them to and they are attached to their body and that is very cool.
- [07:36]
A
Right. And they're, they're testing that out. But that, and I mean this I feel like is so much the, the acronym within the mental health side of the field where we're kind of like look, if it's happening and it's happening with great frequency, intensity, duration and it's causing impairment, those are usually the moments where we get scared versus the moments where like if your kid has just discovered something that they like doing and making a sound, it may not be diagnostic, just Thursday, like that kind of thing. Yeah. And so, so you're talking a lot about these. So like just kind of like get towards some practicality with our listeners and the kind of information that you, you communicate or they can expect me listening to tonight as you scream it into your phone. What sorts of things do you emphasize where you get parents who I would guess are pediatrician, they are stressed out about their kid. They're saying the pediatrician only had this much time to spend with me and I just want to know my kid is on developmentally the right track. When you give the back speech, what's the track? What are we looking for in terms of developmental milestones, ages 0 to 2 and where are you trying to get parents to settle and like really look for clues.
- [08:43]
B
So my, my, like where I'm like guiding parents is because. Right. It's going to Change like a 2 month old versus a 9 month old are going to have incredibly different skills. Right. And so a lot of times what I am looking at is the overall picture of the child. And so you know, if you have a six month old for example, who is maybe not sitting up but is working really hard and like is babbling, is doing all the other things. My line is if they're growing, developing, happy and healthy and maybe they're not fully sitting yet, but they're trying. Yeah, they like that to me is not very concerning. However, if you have a nine month old that is not sitting, that to me is. And so it's to utilize. I think the biggest message I give to parents is utilize the services that we have available. So like your early interventions, your parents as teachers, those things where if you feel like you're not being heard or you're concerned. Yeah, I'm always like, I will never tell a concerned parent not to get an evaluation type of a thing. And so utilizing those early interventions, and I feel like a lot of people don't even know they exist. And so I do a lot of discussion about, about those early interventions. I also have, I make reels and substacks of like, here's my four month checkup. This is what I'm looking for. This is when I get concerned or whatever and like, can go through and give those milestones. I link to the AAP website and all of the milestones so then they can, they can check on them themselves. So my biggest goal is to try to provide the resources for parents to check. Is my child meeting these certain things?
- [10:23]
A
Right. Or to know. I mean, I feel like there's so many developmental checklists in a PED's office where like, you're trying to say, like, but am I defining this fine motor task in the same way that they are? Or do I understand the walking of stairs in a gross motor task the same way that the pediatrician would? And it sounds like you're very much directing folks to resources that would allow them to define that or see what that is supposed to look like.
- [10:45]
B
To see what it looks like. What do I mean by, like, how are they holding a pencil? How do, like, what do I mean by scribbling? What do I mean by like, all of this stuff? And so I think it is very helpful to have something that parents can go back and check and make sure that their kids are meeting those milestones. And then if they're, if they do have concerns, how to find their early intervention services.
- [11:06]
A
And I was trying to figure out, like, you got growing, developing, happy and healthy. Like, does this end up being something we can remember? Like gitahae. Like, I'm trying to get into like a, an acronym that people can think about or something like that. But, you know, it's still it. It has a cadence to it.
- [11:21]
B
We don't have any vowels.
- [11:22]
A
Yeah, exactly. Like I, I like it. This is what would happen marketers if we, if we really knew what we were doing. We'd have like this down.
- [11:29]
B
But had a. Yeah, thing.
- [11:31]
A
Yeah. And I, I think that, you know, this is the, the common question that we'll hear about as well when we start doing, you know, Bailey's or infant assessments or things like that, where a parent will come in and they'll say, I don't know if expressive, receptive or fine motor or gross motor is like, really where it should be.
- [11:46]
B
Yeah.
- [11:46]
A
And I I always give you the example of like it, it sounds like you also appreciate that there is noise in the system. Like I feel like so many of us read these books and we're thinking that like certain things should be linked. Like if my child is this verbal, they should also be walking and growing
- [12:02]
B
every one year old. I'm like, they have to pick one at the beginning. You have to walk or talk. Those are two massives.
- [12:09]
A
Yeah.
- [12:10]
B
And like so you know, they're like, well, you know, Charlie or whatever. My firstborn was walking at 12 months and so they should be walking. I'm like, yeah, but this kid has two word sentences at one. So like. Yeah, so there's a lot of that of reassurance of like their brains can. Only their brains are developing.
- [12:29]
A
Yep.
- [12:30]
B
But they can't, they can't go at hyperspeed.
- [12:33]
A
We, we always go back to the moment, my wife and I of kind of like us just trying to like appreciate the noise in the system where like our son who's nine now when he was, you know, 11 and a half, is talking up a storm. Most verbal kid in his preschool classroom, but basically was born a very big baby and was not really gross motor wise doing anything. He wasn't even walking until he was 18 months. And we were very concerned about this. Granted he was cruising and stuff like that, but his best friend Ava in preschool used to stand over him while he lay on the ground and they would just have a conversation with where he was more verbal than she was, but she was like doing cartwheels at one and a half and he was still like learning to walk. And granted today I think he runs quite well. I think he, you know, makes his gross motor movements quite well. He's not the greatest of soccer players, but like, you know, he's passable. The kids will let him play at recess, but it's like, you know, I, I kept trying to remember that conservation of energy thing that you, you just mentioned in the sense that like, you know, he was eventually going to walk. And he also was carrying a lot of weight around. He was one of those kids with a helmet, you know, to make sure his, his head ended up round.
- [13:45]
B
Yeah. And you know, and I always am like their heads are like a quarter of their body.
- [13:51]
A
Like, you know, his was like half. Yeah, yeah.
- [13:54]
B
You think about that as an adult of like try to put your hand, like imagine your head was so big your hands couldn't go above it. Like.
- [14:01]
A
Absolutely.
- [14:01]
B
That is a lot of weight to hold up.
- [14:03]
A
Right.
- [14:04]
B
And you know, that, like. Or if you have a kid that's crawling, I'm like, they were. Children will always choose the path of least resistance, because if I'm real fast at crawling, I have no motivation to get up and walk.
- [14:14]
A
Absolutely.
- [14:15]
B
Yeah. And so there's a lot of, like, a lot of that. You know, I had twins. And so with social media alone, it's so hard not to do that. That noisy comparison of, like, well, my kids is doing that. Should they be doing that? And having twins and having a direct comparison is so stressful because you're like, what, What? Wait, why aren't you doing this? And why aren't you doing that? And it's so hard to remember that, like, your child is an individual.
- [14:40]
A
Right.
- [14:40]
B
They did not read the book. And they, like, your. Your job is to support them in their moment and not try to get them to become someone else. And that is what I also hope I am achieving.
- [14:53]
A
I love the idea that your child did not read the book. I.
- [14:56]
B
That was my. My.
- [14:57]
A
Do you forget that they did not read what to expect when you're expecting the first year and the second year? Because the book says.
- [15:04]
B
The book says that your bottom two teeth come in first and their incisors are coming. I'm like, yeah, they didn't read the book.
- [15:10]
A
So this. God, that one was another trigger for me, too, because our. So my wife's a neuroscientist, I'm a psychologist. We know that tooth loss at an early age can be correlated with adverse childhood events at stress. And our daughter lost two teeth very early. Then, like, did not lose another tooth for like a year and a half of any kind. But, like, when those first two teeth came out, we're like, what do we do wrong? What do we do?
- [15:35]
B
Oh, yeah. Like, when you know enough, you just are like,
- [15:40]
A
exactly. Unfortunately, just enough to be dangerous. So just a couple things because we. We were starting to look through our listener questions, and we were saying to ourselves, like, okay, what do we want? Like, you know, your wisdom on, like, right off the bat that the questions we get the most in this age range feeding when we see questions. And I'll just say, like, we. We were looking back through our listener questions, and it's like, you know, is breastfeeding far superior to formula? What. What. When is it okay to stop breastfeeding? I think what we see, and I'm a male speaking for female listeners who have submitted these questions, is just a ton of pressure to breastfeed for as long as possible and feel like a failure if you haven't. So let's just go with that question as an example. Where do you stand on this? What would we see in your messaging?
- [16:27]
B
A mentally well parent is the primary importance of a mentally well child.
- [16:33]
A
Yes.
- [16:35]
B
So my line is it's not my boobs, it's not my baby, it's not my choice. So my. I. Any. So I'm also an I, in case your listeners don't know, I also do breastfeeding medicine. And so anytime I have a lactation visit, my question is not how can I get you to breastfeed? My question is, what is your goal? Yeah. And if your goal is I want to breastfeed for a week, a month, a year, two years, whatever it is, I will help you try to achieve your goal. But also my other line is your quality as a mother is not measured in the quantity of breast milk that has. They. They. Those two things are not interlinked.
- [17:16]
A
Yeah.
- [17:17]
B
And so SCI and I had a follower call it science milk. And I think that is the most genius thing ever. That science milk is not this detrimental toxin.
- [17:29]
A
Yeah.
- [17:29]
B
That. That it has become in. In especially in social media.
- [17:35]
A
Yeah.
- [17:37]
B
Does breast milk have benefits? Yes. It is measurable benefits.
- [17:41]
A
Yeah.
- [17:42]
B
But are those benefits negated if you are killing yourself and not bonding with your child? Yes. And so where I go with this is like how long you should breastfeed. Two people get a decision on that. The breastfeeding or chest feeding parent and the child, no one else. When one of those two people decide they are done, it is done. And that is where there is this.
- [18:08]
A
It's a very consistent word, kind of thinking on this. Yeah.
- [18:11]
B
Yes.
- [18:12]
A
Yeah. All right. It works.
- [18:15]
B
Yes.
- [18:15]
A
I'm thinking about how it dovetails with our conversations about sex, consent and safety, but yes, this makes sense. Yeah.
- [18:20]
B
You get two people, these two people get the decision. Right. And, and so there is this lot of external pressure or to either breastfeed when you don't want to breastfeed, whenever your child is maybe not gaining or having issues and refusing to supplement or being scared of supplementing or feeling like a failure.
- [18:39]
A
Yeah.
- [18:40]
B
And. And we forget that this is not an. We are, we are putting an individualistic problem or we're putting a societal problem on the individual that like especially in the United States. Right. That we don't have a lot of support, we don't have a lot. We don't have paid parental leave, we don't have. These things would benefit and help improve breastfeeding rates for those who want it.
- [19:04]
A
Absolutely.
- [19:06]
B
And the, the Other part of that is, for those who do want to breastfeed, I feel like there is this push of, like, oh, just give a bottle. Why would, like, just give a bottle. And not realizing that breasts are an organ, and if they're not functioning, they deserve a workup just like any other organ that's not functioning.
- [19:22]
A
Yeah.
- [19:23]
B
And so I. I have many thoughts on that.
- [19:26]
A
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, but. But the thing that I feel like I want to take away from it, which I've always felt like was my job, at least in my support for my wife with our two children, was this notion of two people who both can make a decision. And that at the end of the day, I want both of us to be best equipped to bond and support our children and whatever that meant in terms of how they were fed. And I see, like, the science. Milk is good. But again, this goes back to the fact that we need a marketer in this conversation, because, like, for some people, unfortunately, in our national dialogue right now, science is not a totally positive word. So maybe we call it awesome. Oh, milk. Or maybe we call it mama Earth's milk for a more holistic, natural vibe, like, whatever it might be. But it's like, it's that notion that, like, using this is a way of making sure that your child has a close relationship with a parent, that you can manage all the different variables in your lives. And that at the end of the day, like, we don't want you to necessarily sit here feeling like you've read a book or you've read about the benefits of this, or that means that, like, you're a failure as a parent if you can't do this, because odds are you're going to fail a million times. So, you know, I just kind of am like, all right, chalk that up to the L column. I'm just trying to make the W column out, you know, weigh the L column. Right. Yeah.
- [20:41]
B
And that's. I always. That's kind of. I'm like, with. With parents, and I feel like we always have. We. We sacrifice for our kids. Right. And so I tell these parents, I'm like, you sacrifice your body to carry this child.
- [20:52]
A
Yeah.
- [20:52]
B
You sacrifice your body to birth this child. You are going to sacrifice the rest of your life for this child. Yeah. This is okay. It is okay. Whatever decision you want to make, whether it's you want to do whatever you can supplement in whatever way you can to keep that baby on the breast or you want to be done. Both are okay.
- [21:11]
A
Yep.
- [21:11]
B
Because now my boobs on my Baby, not my choice.
- [21:15]
A
So. So, okay, the second group questions. I feel like all of this is going to lead a number of people to find great comfort and support already in some of the material you described. My next question is sleep. We get a lot of questions about sleep. Now granted, this is one where I feel like this can parents who are presenting across all gender presentations. But the bottom line is if I'm trying to get my kid to sleep in the years and people are reading about Ferberizing, they're reading about sleep training, they're reading about cry it out, that kind of thing, what kinds of things do you consider in consulting with parents on this?
- [21:54]
B
So my first is that I generally don't recommend any sort of external sleep training in the sense that you withhold food overnight until minimum six months. And again, the kid has to be growing, developing, happy and healthy. Right.
- [22:08]
A
Good to have what I'm going with now, but yes. Okay.
- [22:11]
B
Well, the first year biologically normal to wake up the entire. The entire first year biologically normal.
- [22:19]
A
Yeah.
- [22:20]
B
Right. Then kind of going back to the same thing. The only people who really get an opinion on if you should or should not sleep train are the people waking up with the child. Your kid waking up at night not going to bother me one bit. Right. So why should I impose my theories and my thoughts? If you are happy with your sleep setup.
- [22:40]
A
Yeah.
- [22:41]
B
However, if you are not and you are at a point of frustration where it is not safe for you to continue waking up, then we can talk about what sort of sleep method would get you to that point where you are getting enough sleep where you can, where you are safe to be with your child.
- [22:59]
A
And just a side note on this question, so much the pressure, because you go back to like societal trends, so much of the pressure that I see around sleep training is partly because we, we exist in return to work culture that is very, very focused on return to work. And so there for I think a lot of the parents that I speak with, the idea of waiting until a year to give sleep some time to kind of settle out and you know, nighttime feedings to settle out is like almost too much to comprehend and still try to be functioning at work and, you know, keeping a job. And you know, we, I think constantly about this since we had kids. The difference between what happened when I went home at night before my wife and I had kids and when I go home at night with children, just how much responsibility there is, just how much there is to do and make sure is happening, that is so much more emotionally laden than my job might be, even though our jobs already involved.
- [23:58]
B
Oh yeah.
- [23:59]
A
And so once you get to that phase where a parent is saying to you, you're watching a tired parent of a 14 month old in your office and they're saying, what do I do? How do you coach them through the next step?
- [24:14]
B
So then I kind of go with, what are you, like, what is your ultimate goal? Are you like, I need to get as much sleep, I can't, I can't function anymore. So I go back again to like, what is the parent's goal? What support do they have? Do they have, do they have partners? Do they have other adults that can, that can help, that can take over, that they can shift or what it is that they, that they need? And then I kind of steer that. I don't have a one size sort of like sleep option because some parents are like, I want, I'm going to have to do cry it out because I can't, I like, I can't be safe with my child. In which case, please, I would much rather I'll cry than be physically harmed. You know, that makes sense.
- [25:00]
A
Absolutely.
- [25:01]
B
Or if they're like, no, I think we can handle this doing alternating and then you can. I really, like, I don't know if I can plug other people's stuff, but what I've used in my profession is
- [25:12]
A
if you are seeing this as a science based model that people should take a look at, plug it. Yeah.
- [25:17]
B
Dr. Craig Ganapari, he's a Yale sleep doctor and he has a free parent facing website of like how to sleep train without. Cried out with. Cried out with. If you have a breastfed kid, if you have a toddler, if you have a teenager, if you have all the things. And so I really, really, really enjoy sending patients his website. I think he's very helpful. Yeah. And I, I don't know him. He just, I just really like his website.
- [25:44]
A
Hey, look, plug people we don't even know. Their work is pretty great. Absolutely. As long as it doesn't come out that there's like a news story where like, I don't know, he's out there like murdering cats. I think we're okay.
- [25:54]
B
I don't, I hope not.
- [25:55]
A
I think he doesn't seem like the cat murderer of, you know, New Haven. It sounds like he's probably good, right? Yes. It's not a particular crime. I'm just, my wife's at Yale too and I'm just like sitting there being like, I think it's good. But yes. All right.
- [26:09]
B
We're fine.
- [26:10]
A
Okay.
- [26:11]
B
And so like he talks about like there's camping methods. There's, there's tons of different methods and so I usually am. I'm testing the water camping methods. Camping.
- [26:20]
A
So like you take your kids tent camping?
- [26:23]
B
Yes. No. No. So you have a chair and you sit and you just move the chair further and further every night to the door where you're camping, you're camping out, you're waiting and, and giving them more and more space to fall asleep.
- [26:36]
A
I see. I call that graduated exposure for separation anxiety. So I like camping method better. That's. That works.
- [26:42]
B
It rolls off the twin a little easier.
- [26:44]
A
Exact little bit. A little easier. Yes. I have coached many a parent through the remove yourself over time incrementally. But the camping works better. But yeah.
- [26:52]
B
Yes.
- [26:53]
A
Yeah.
- [26:54]
B
And so things like that, where, where it's like maybe I have a parent that is on night shift where that is not possible or so it's just going to depend on the family and the individual and their goals and it's just not a one size.
- [27:09]
A
Well and so much that's refreshing about the way that you're talking is, is something that I wish every family could center which is the mental health of the dyad is kind of key in the sense of like I will also see parents who are like look, I, I don't really care about anything other than having my kids sleep in their bed at night. But like if they want to have me rub their back as they go to, through you know, elementary school, like I love doing that. I work really late. It's nice to come home and just be able to have a moment of connection like and I'll, I'll kind of go back and even talk about how like if we were to pluck any kid across the world, you know, we would likely find that they sleep in a room with a family member or that they coastly. It's a very distinctly kind of like high SES and American kind of trend to say that like sleep involves the child sleeping alone in their own space. As the way that we're sleep training.
- [27:59]
B
I always turn this around to parents. I'm like I as a 34 year old cannot fall asleep without my husband in bed. I can't. I don't sleep through the night. I wake up and have to pee or get a drink or some. I like when we think of it from our perspective where I'm like I don't do those things and why would I expect my 2 year old to do those things?
- [28:24]
A
Yeah.
- [28:26]
B
And so or, like, I'll have parents that are like, well, they're still waking up, but I don't mind getting up and nursing or rocking or whatever. And I'm like, okay, then keep doing it. And so I think they're. You're right. It's this. It's this external pressure that if we're not doing that, then. Then we're not successful. But then on the other hand, if I have a kid that's not sleeping enough to be growing, developing, happy, and healthy, then we got to do something else, right? So it's. It is going to be this balance of, like, where is the child? Where is the parent? Where is our mental health? What is our. Our development? Like, right? And then we go from there.
- [29:03]
A
I tell people all the time, and I've coached parents through everything, from cry it out all the way through the most gentle methods of sleep training. At the end of the day, my wife had to sleep on the couch. Sleep training of both of our children while I listened to the monitors and would go in at successively longer and longer intervals because we couldn't do full cry it out while watching Olivia Pope on Scandal as a way of keeping my attention somewhat on a television show instead of the sounds of our miserable children in their cribs. But, like, eventually that got our kids to a point where they could sleep through the night aside from waking us up with nightmares or, you know, if the bathroom looks dark.
- [29:38]
B
And yeah, again, I'm like, I do that.
- [29:42]
A
This is. But this is so, so much. I feel like, okay, so first of all, even though, you know, we have only gotten a chance to connect briefly prior to this podcast, like, if I was to characterize the ideal vibe of the podcast, the vibe is, parenting is messy. There are middle paths to everything. Please stop listening to people with extreme viewpoints. Like, our job is to kind of, like, take what we know at a baseline around the kind of, like, noisy conclusions of science and then try to say, like, how do we optimize these things without saying we have to get all the things? Like, yes, yes. Yeah. And at the end of the day, also, if we're going through that thinking process, you're usually doing pretty well. Like, if you're actually thinking that much, your kid's getting a lot of care and a lot of investment. And.
- [30:27]
B
Yep, my line is, parenting is only hard for good parents.
- [30:31]
A
That is also a fantastic line. So to bring us home in the last couple minutes here, I just have some lightning round kind of hot topics in the sense that I'm sure that you see within our kind of national dialogue a number of hot topics that parents will come in and ask you about. My first one, vaccines. When parents come in and they say to you, I don't know, I feel really weird about vaccines, what would you say? Tell us what you answer to those questions.
- [31:02]
B
So I'm like, you should have questions. I'm injecting a clear liquid into your child that I, that warrants a question. Great.
- [31:09]
A
Very validating. Yes.
- [31:10]
B
Right, like that. I think that that is incredibly valid. So then I'm going into what are your fears? You know, I, so, so is if is your fear too that we do too many at once. And then I try to explain, have you met a child that is mobile? They put everything in their mouth and that the amount of exposures, honestly walking in my office, are probably more than they will get in those vaccines. And that our immune system can handle about 10,000 vaccines at once before if it, even if it was stagnant. And so I try to give it in like different numbers, but I, you know that.
- [31:54]
A
So as a comparison, the four shots your kid is getting today are nowhere near what they've licked so far.
- [32:02]
B
Correct. What they have. You know how they grab their shoe and lick the bottom of it. Every kid does that in the car seat. Same. And even a two month old, their, their immune system, even though they're not licking stuff, but a two month old, those that their, their immune system can handle, that they are not, we are not overburdening them or if then they're concerned.
- [32:23]
A
Remember the time my daughter threw up on the way to preschool and then before I realized what was going on, began re eating some of the solid pieces of it as we're going before I could stop the car and you know, figure this out and thought to myself, good God, like it is incredible what these little bodies are able to handle.
- [32:43]
B
But yes, I watched my son drag his tongue along a Costco shopping cart.
- [32:49]
A
Oh yeah. Oh, that's, that's 50 hands in the last hour.
- [32:54]
B
And norovirus flu.
- [32:58]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. That's, that is, that's really incredible. Right. And then, and then we're getting four weakened germed shots. Yeah.
- [33:06]
B
And that, you know, if they're concerned it's aluminum. I try to, I'm like, okay, let's, let's the dose make the line, you know, the dose makes the poison, right?
- [33:14]
A
Yeah.
- [33:14]
B
Well, you get about eight times as much aluminum in six months of breastfeeding than you do in all your childhood vaccines combined. So, you know, you know, aluminum is in everything that we eat and we drink because it's in the earth's crust. And everything that, yeah, we eat and drink comes from the earth at some point. And so trying to help them understand that if the concern is. Is autism, then we talk about how there is that. We have decades and decades of studies showing that it's not. And then if your child. That was.
- [33:52]
A
My next question literally was like, then they link it to something. I wasn't even mentioning autism because I knew how hot that was, but it makes sense to just name it. Yes. And it is.
- [34:01]
B
And autism is the concern. And I'm like, your child is either autistic or not, whether or not we vaccinate them.
- [34:12]
A
You're so patient and validating. Like, do. Do your appointments last 48 minutes? I mean, I'm just. It sounds like you spend. Okay. You said you spend a good amount of time. Like, this is. It is a therapy session in a doctor's appointment is what it sounds like.
- [34:26]
B
Because then I also talk to them about the diseases. And I'm like, this is why. This is why I want to protect your child. This is. This is what I fear if we don't. And I think giving that whole complete picture helps parents feel better. But I think the best one is that I vaccinate my children on schedule without hesitation. Yeah. And I mean, I don't think there's anything more powerful than another parent telling you what they would do with their child.
- [34:58]
A
Absolutely. Absolutely. Now it makes sense. And it really. It does say something. And so are there other particularly controversial moments where you have to treat it that sensibly? Because it's very clear that you just have a very practiced. Kind of like someone comes in with this, and you don't just say, the science is clear. Get the vaccine. Like that kind of thing. You say, like, tell me about your concerns. Let me help you understand them. Are there other things that parents bring
- [35:21]
B
in, like that circumcision, if you want to get another hot topic.
- [35:25]
A
Oh, yeah. Okay, let's talk circumcision, and then I really will bring it in with our final question. But what's circumcision?
- [35:32]
B
That, again, it's a decision, and so I give. So I talked about. Here's the risks and benefits. These risks of the procedure are, you know, pain, bleeding, infection, damage to the penis and surrounding structures. The benefit is that it can sl. It can lower penile cancer risk and STIs later in life. It can decrease the risk of urinary tract infection early in life. Those risks are Already very low, but it does decrease them slightly. It is considered now an elective procedures, but it also has a religious component to it. And it is not something I believe in swaying one way or the other because not my baby, not my penis, not my choice.
- [36:10]
A
Right, Got it.
- [36:11]
B
Okay. And this is again, it's just I. I am very much a. Here is the information.
- [36:17]
A
Right.
- [36:18]
B
I am the expert in the medicine. You are the expert in your child.
- [36:21]
A
Right.
- [36:23]
B
Make a decision.
- [36:24]
A
I mean, look, you. You have a matter of fact way of clear choices. This is where also, as people watch your stuff, they're going to see this. Not just screaming at your phone. Because I got to tell you, social media is filled with a lot of people screaming at their phone. I just heard someone at their phone about an NFL quarterback this morning. Did not think their analysis was top notch, but like, you know, in this case, it seems it's matter of fact. It's clear about where you think there are things. And I think this is also, this is the kind of information that parents are clamoring for in this world because there are so many things that we're getting extreme perspectives on where, yes, we're then trying to figure out, like, oh my God, am I doing my child a huge disservice by not paying attention. Perspective. So, okay, to go to our final question.
- [37:07]
B
Okay.
- [37:08]
A
Two surefire things to make sure you're not messing up your kid, or I should phrase that positively, to make sure that you're supporting your kid. Perhaps the best way we know how. What comes to mind for you?
- [37:21]
B
Physical safety and emotional safety. So physical safety in the sense of like seat belts, helmets, firearms up, locked away, like that sort of thing.
- [37:32]
A
Yes.
- [37:33]
B
And emotional safety as in being the.
- [37:35]
A
I think it was clear there that you were saying wear seatbelts, wear helmets. If you have firearms, let's lock them up. Not also firearms. The same level enthusiasm. I got you. Right.
- [37:46]
B
If you have a firearm, please lock it and put it in a safe and like not loaded. All of that. Like, keep your kids as safe.
- [37:58]
A
Security of the firearms. Absolutely.
- [38:01]
B
And then, sorry, medication, that stuff too.
- [38:03]
A
You were saying emotion, I cut you off. An emotional safety, which is really the whole vibe of the podcast. So keep going on that.
- [38:08]
B
Emotional safety. So as a parent, you are going to get mad at your kids. It is inevitable. You can say you're not going to yell and eventually we all yell. Your repair with your child is critical. And so being okay with admitting you're wrong, being okay with allowing your child to be right, being okay with allowing your child to change their mind. And being a place where your kid can feel that they can run to instead of from is, I think, two of the best ways that you can keep them healthy, happy, growing and developing.
- [38:44]
A
That is beautiful because what I feel like is a constant refrain for me with parents is that authority is inherent. You don't really have to flex it. You have so much power over the choices that you, your child to have at their disposal. You have so much power over the resources you provide, the kinds of environments that you create. So, like, there's not so much of a need to demonstrate, but the things that are rare are the things that you just mentioned is the parents who consciously focus on making sure they create that kind of emotionally safe environment. So that is a beautiful note to end on. So, Dr. Hughes, thank you for us on the podcast. What I will also say is for our listeners, we will include any links you reference to Yale sleep doctors that you have promoted on the podcast, as well as to your socials or any other resources you feel provide the supporting material for the points that you've made here on the podcast. Or, and I'll make this promise to our listeners, if there's any topic. I didn't ask you about that, you were like, oh my God, Dave should have. We can include that in the show notes and be like, there's probably burning questions about this, but you know, we'll, we'll try to keep that there. So thank you so much for joining us on Thriving Kids.
- [39:54]
B
Thank you for having me.