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- [00:05]
A
Hello, and welcome to the Thriving Kids Podcast. This week, we have our first ever return guest on the thriving kids podcast, Dr. Lisa D'. Amore. Welcome.
- [00:13]
B
Thank you. I'm so honored to be your first ever return.
- [00:16]
A
That's it. I was saying it's really fun, like, when you get to come through town and be like, wait, we had so much more. Because we'd ended a couple episodes and been like, we should come back. But, like, I've learned this. I mean, you're a podcast veteran of your own podcast and all kinds of things. Like, I thought podcasts have seasons. Like, they can, right?
- [00:34]
B
But that's not really how people listen to them.
- [00:35]
A
I learned that quickly from our team here that, like, they don't have seasons. And I kept being like, in the first few episodes, I'd be like, and we'll have someone back in future seasons. But this is like, if this was season two, you know, here I am. Right? Exactly. We're back for like. Or it's like an SNL thing where, like, maybe we'll get jackets for people who are back multiple times.
- [00:54]
B
Right. I want my jacket.
- [00:55]
A
That's exactly it. So our topic this week, what we brought you back to is this was kind of, you know, this podcast episode was born out of you riffing on emails with some beautiful ideas about how to prepare kids today future proof them for the challenges they might meet, many of which we don't even know are there. So first, where did this thought come from for you as a podcast topic?
- [01:22]
B
So I've been practicing for 30 years, and I find myself caring for kids and families in a very interesting moment against those 30 years where I think we feel less sure about what's ahead than we ever have. Right. Between AI, digital tech, political polarization, environment questions. As a clinician and a person who thinks in this space, I am fielding all sorts of new questions about how do we get kids ready for what's coming when we don't even know what's coming?
- [01:53]
A
Yes.
- [01:54]
B
And so I've tried to fall back on that 30 years and think, okay, well, what do I know? Sets kids up, whatever else, right? What are the things we can do right here, right now in our kitchens with our homes that will prepare kids for all of this uncertainty and hopefully to thrive in the face of it. So that's. It was sort of like looking back over what I've watched matter over long stretches of development is what got my thinking going in this direction.
- [02:23]
A
And the reason why I liked this topic is, you know, my wife and I lived in LA for five years. And I remember that for a long period of time, we had a closet that was our prepper closet. It was an earthquake closet. I mean, we had canned food in there. We had water. We had something we can inflate in our bathtub and fill the bathtub before the fresh water was gone. We had a bucket that would serve as something. I won't speak of, like, all kinds of stuff, but this is, like, to me, this is kind of like a prepper podcast. It's basically saying you don't know what's going to happen in the future, but if you were to make a shelter with your kid of, like, the skills and things they would need, you know, for whatever befalls them, you know, if it's going to be a Terminator future, we're all going to be on a moon base together. Like, whatever it is, I'm hoping for the moon base. Okay? Like, you know, that kind of stuff. So what is tops on your list if one was to begin? Future proof proving a kid.
- [03:13]
B
So this is so boring, and I'm starting here.
- [03:16]
A
No, but the prepper. I mean, like, canned food is boring. Like, we should start with the boring.
- [03:20]
B
We should start with boring. Sleep. I have become so clear in my mind that if sleep is not in place for a child, nothing else you do is going to protect that child's mental health. And the way I've been thinking about sleep is, first of all, a lot of families don't know how much sleep kids actually need. So just to be clear, elementary school kids should be getting 11 hours of sleep a night. Middle school, 10, high schoolers, 9. Which none of them get. I know younger kids need more than elementary school kids, so the numbers are much higher than people realize. And the thing I've been thinking about, Dave, is, okay, one bad night. We all have one bad night. What we know about sleep is that when a kid is rested, you know this, they are better able to focus, they are better able to learn. Their memory is better, their attention is better, their mood is better. They're less likely to have an accident. They like themselves better. They like everybody else better. Right? They're more creative. Okay? If you think about the compounding effect day over day over day of a kid who is tired at school. And so their attention, memory, mood, emotional regulation. I didn't even include in the first list. Is eroded. And you do that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, week over week, year over year, that kid is on a completely different trajectory than they would be on if they were showing up. Well, Rested most days.
- [04:50]
A
Right.
- [04:51]
B
So if we think about trajectories and future, it starts with your kid getting a decent night's sleep tonight and tomorrow, and as many days as you can line up after that.
- [05:01]
A
Well, and I will go back to. And this is, again, channeling, you know, my wife's work. It's that, you know, I always think about it, like, what we're doing is like, if construction crews are being sent to different parts of the brain during sleep to consolidate things to make sure that certain neuronal pathways are being reinforced. Things like that. You have to give them time to do their work. Otherwise, they can't just shut down traffic the entire time. You know, you've got to be able to, like, shut it down, close off that lane, but not stop traffic, and then, you know, we end up getting enough sleep. I think the other thing that hits me about this point is that, like, as a, you know, in our clinical work, biggest point on differential diagnosis is first to assess sleep. You know, I mean, my. The biggest thing that patients come to me about, you know, just because this is where the area that I particularly really enjoy working is ADHD and behavior difficulties. And before we say that a kid's having difficulty behavior or adhd, I'll say, how are they sleeping? Now, on this note, though, before we even go to any of our other. We have a. A dozen points, maybe a baker's dozen, something like that. Before we go to any of the other points, what if there's a parent listening right now, and it's like, oh, my God, Lisa just listed all those sleep amounts. My kid does not like sleeping.
- [06:07]
B
Oh, does not like sleeping?
- [06:08]
A
Yeah. Not. Not so much. Like, doesn't like. Like, I think there's lots of resources online for, like, how to necessarily think about sleep hygiene or how to help your kid. Like, you know, we have a previous episode with Dr. Shelby Harris about, like, how to make your kids cave. Make sure your sleeping area is cool, dark, and comfortable. I think it's more like. I see a lot of parents who just say, like, look, I can put my kid to bed at a particular time of night. You just said 11 hours for elementary schoolers. And I think actually this is also my son. My son wakes up after 9 hours and 45 minutes or 10 hours without fail.
- [06:38]
B
Okay, well, so that may be him, right?
- [06:40]
A
Exactly.
- [06:40]
B
Right. These are averages, right? These are averages, right?
- [06:42]
A
We're not, like, locking him in his room, saying, you need to stay in there for 11, 100%, but it's the fact that he has that Space to get that sleep.
- [06:50]
B
And he's well rested and he. Right. You're not seeing any of the symptomatology that we would say. Is that a disorder or is that sleep deprivation? So first of all, I'm 100% with you. I will not diagnose a sleep deprived child because sleep deprived children look like they have adhd, look like they have anxiety disorders, look like they have depression. So first we have to rule that out. I think the question about prioritizing sleep is you and I both know modeling is where it's at in family life. So it's also prioritizing sleep for the adults because adults are sleep deprived. It's more about this big zoom out and organizing family life to make these kinds of hours doable in family life. This feels a little extreme, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Kids don't always like wearing their seatbelts. We don't negotiate with that. Yes, there is nothing that protects mental health more in the general population than a good night's sleep. So for me, it's funny, the longer I practice, the more I get really relaxed about some things and the more rigid I become about others. And you can tell I've gotten really rigid about sleep.
- [08:01]
A
What else do you get rigid on on this future?
- [08:02]
B
I mean, for me, it's safety. I mean, I'm just really rigid about safety. I'm like, kids room is messy, whatever. Like, you know, kids smoking weed. Today's weed. Yeah, this is a huge safety issue. Right. I mean, I, I'm stronger on things. And it's just, this is a function of like, you've seen things over a long arc. You've watched development unfold over a long time. You know what matters?
- [08:24]
A
For me, it's like seat belts caused me to think of helmets, which is another non negotiable in our family.
- [08:28]
B
Yeah, exactly. Like we don't mess around with that stuff. Right. And like you don't like your helmet and yeah, you look kind of goofy in it. But this isn't something that we're debating.
- [08:35]
A
Our town school district sends out pretty much a memo every month or two about another kid who was severely injured riding a motorized scooter without a helmet. And I just think, God, what an incredibly preventable injury of childhood that affects someone's entire life.
- [08:48]
B
Yes. We don't mess with brain injury. Yeah.
- [08:50]
A
Okay, so what else do we have on the future proofing list on the kind of the. We can start at kind of the base of the pyramid, like the basic wellness area. We'll Go with that.
- [08:58]
B
Okay, so another one I think is really neat. And I just try to think in terms of, like, practical things families can do. Try to eat as a family. And the data on this are surprisingly forgiving. It is not like, you know, command performance. Every family member, every meal, completely. If you're talking dinner, it's more nights a week than not. It does not need to be dinner. I'm often actually able to sit with my 15 year old over breakfast. We have a long breakfast, but then I'll sometimes miss dinner. It's the idea of meals and what I like about meals. I wrote a piece for the Times a million years ago because, like, you have kids, I have kids. Right. Like, we'll get to meals, you know, like, work all hard to make everybody get to meals. And then, especially in adolescence, you're like, so how was your day? And they're like crickets. And you're like, what happened? And they're like crickets. And I remember thinking, how is this so magical? Like, why is this, like, you know, helping my kid grow completely? Yes. And my thinking is. And you know this. Right. This is about warmth and structure.
- [09:54]
A
Yes.
- [09:54]
B
And those are sort of the twin beacons in parenting. Right. Those are the things that make parenting work well for kids. And the act of saying we're gonna prioritize trying to eat as a family holds within it both warmth and structure. Warmth. Like, I like you, I'd like to sit down and have a meal with you.
- [10:13]
A
Yes.
- [10:14]
B
Even if you're not gonna talk to me that much.
- [10:15]
A
Right.
- [10:15]
B
I just like looking at you.
- [10:16]
A
Yeah.
- [10:17]
B
And then the structure is we're going to get organized enough that we can make it happen. And so I think that it's not that the meal is a crackling conversation of delight. Right. Rarely, it's that the act of saying we're going to come together to eat means that warmth and structure is happening at home.
- [10:38]
A
So you provide this beautifully elegant view. I often go to the substance abuse prevention research where I will tell families that what the research shows is that when you're looking at substance abuse prevention and you say, like, okay, okay, family meals, you know, a few times a week, the quality of interaction doesn't matter. Like, and it's also, it's about this kind of monitoring. It's that, like, you know, if we look at, like, the research on monitoring, the. The single question does, does your kid think, you know, where they are most of the time is massively, you know, predictive of substance abuse prevention. And eating family meals is one of Those things, like, you just, you know, where each other are at some point. It may not be scintillating or crackling, as you said. I think that was it. But, like, that's the whole thing is like the. The meal is not. It isn't. It's just like we know where each other are while reading a burrito.
- [11:24]
B
And I want to look at you.
- [11:24]
A
That's exactly right.
- [11:25]
B
I want to see you. Right. So.
- [11:27]
A
And there's some expectation that we'll both arrive at this conversation, you know, sober and present and, you know, those are all, you know, wonderful things.
- [11:35]
B
Yeah. It's simple and also hard to pull off.
- [11:38]
A
Right.
- [11:38]
B
But I would say, honestly, Dave, sleep, family meals. Yeah. Get those things in place. Your kid's mental health already just got so much padding around it. Right. Such protection going forward.
- [11:52]
A
Yeah.
- [11:53]
B
Okay, so here's a fun one that's like, totally different. Yeah.
- [11:56]
A
I was gonna say I want to go to hobbies, because that was another one you're passionate about.
- [12:00]
B
I have become obsessed with kids having hobbies. And I think. I think what's happening.
- [12:04]
A
And this doesn't mean extracurricular sports, that they're just hobbies.
- [12:08]
B
I cannot go on a college application. That's what I mean. I'm really into it. Like, it cannot.
- [12:14]
A
No college cares that you're not listing number of hours as.
- [12:19]
B
No. You know, it has no.
- [12:20]
A
I mean, it could be a club, but. Yeah.
- [12:22]
B
But it cannot go on a college application. And the piece I just want to say out of the gate is you can't make your kid have a hobby. Right. And I know that.
- [12:30]
A
Right.
- [12:30]
B
But I think sometimes kids have hobbies that we don't treat as hobbies and don't make space and reverence for.
- [12:36]
A
Yeah.
- [12:37]
B
And I think sometimes kids have hobbies and we're like, why are you doing that? You could be doing something for your college application.
- [12:41]
A
Totally.
- [12:42]
B
So what I love about hobbies, I think they're so powerful. Number one, I think they belong to the child. And this is something that I will say over the arc of caring. So I moved to Shaker Heights, Ohio, where I live in 2000, and I've been practicing there all this time. So I have gotten to see young people who I saw as adolescents move through early adulthood now into middle adulthood. Totally. It's amazing.
- [13:08]
A
I've been there since Y2K.
- [13:09]
B
It's actually very millennium. I did.
- [13:11]
A
Exactly.
- [13:13]
B
And I will tell you, I have watched the impact on self esteem of kids owning something. So here's what I mean. I've Cared for kids who on paper, coming out of high school, were absolute superstars. Right? Absolute superstars. Going to all the named colleges, all of this stuff. I never watched them take great pride in that. And I think it's because it's very hard to feel good about being highly obedient. And these tend to be highly obedient kids when they come back to Cleveland. And I watched one young woman fix a business. It was a business that was in chaos. And she walked in at 25 and just whipped them into shape. Suddenly her self esteem came into place. Even though she'd been shooting the lights out on paper, like all that time. When I watch kids, you know what's back is Hacky Sack. When I watch kids, my son just
- [14:11]
A
bought a hacky sack as a souvenir on a trip. I'm with you.
- [14:13]
B
Suddenly develop this skill set that no one has asked them to do. That is hard. That takes time. The sense of pride, the sense of self esteem, the ownership of that. If we want self esteem in kids, it's in hobbies. It's actually not in club presidencies. It is. I've seen this over and over. So there's self esteem, there's risk taking. Kids, especially ambitious kids, don't take a lot of risks at school because they can't afford to.
- [14:38]
A
Of course.
- [14:39]
B
Hacky sack. You're like, I'm gonna try one of the. Over the rainbow. I'm gonna try it. Right? Like, you're not gonna do it until the hundredth try. But there's risk taking.
- [14:47]
A
It's probably back to right outside my junior high school library. Like, I was like, oh my God. Like, it's just like a kid being like, wanna have a hack? And like, I'd be like, yes, yes. Cause also I was a soccer player, so I felt like I'm good at it. But it's a totally different skill set.
- [14:59]
B
Totally different skill set.
- [15:00]
A
There's a mindfulness about it that, like, you know, you're not going anywhere with it. You're just sitting in that place.
- [15:05]
B
So then coping, right? A lot of the hobbies that keep you.
- [15:07]
A
Okay, so moving to another future proofing skill.
- [15:09]
B
No, actually, hobbies can become coping.
- [15:11]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, Right.
- [15:12]
B
A kid who has a terrible day at school and is like, I'm just gonna go play Hacky Sack until I figure out this new trick and then I'm gonna do my homework.
- [15:18]
A
Totally.
- [15:18]
B
That's coping. Right? There's often a lovely social component. Hacky Sack is social. Video games are social. Right. I mean, there's also that too. So I think we don't. Hobbies is not a topic I've ever really seen explored in our field.
- [15:32]
A
Yeah.
- [15:33]
B
But I've become really interested and what I will say is reading is a hobby. Skateboarding hobby. Kids who get really into making origami is a hobby. Crafting is a hobby. And I don't know, as is true in so much of child development that we have valued it and these things that kids intuitively find their way to as much as we probably should.
- [15:55]
A
And I think that, you know, there's so much as we're talking about this thing, I'm thinking about my own kids and like just the fact that like a lot of this stuff doesn't necessarily cost money.
- [16:04]
B
No.
- [16:05]
A
Like my son yesterday, he wants to buy. My son's sport is swimming. He likes to be on a swim team. But he also is a huge fan of hockey, but doesn't know how to ice skate. But like has created a hockey area in our basement. And yesterday he took a bunch of boxes that we have and he cut and taped his own goalie pads together out of cardboard boxes. Spent like an hour and a half on this while my daughter and I were reorganizing her desk for optimum art supply accessibility. She really has like a vision.
- [16:34]
B
That's her.
- [16:35]
A
Yeah, exactly. And that was like what she was looking for was like she, she needed to, she needed me to provide some organizational support to hobby related coloring unicorns. And he's doing this and you know, at most I would say that it's a pack of Crayola markers for what we're talking about.
- [16:49]
B
And that was pretty much creativity and it's self driven and he owns it and he can take pride in it. And he's not on a screen right. And he's. And they're exploring this space.
- [17:02]
A
There are like, I don't want to say that there aren't some screen based hobbies in the sense that like I'll see sometimes. Like my son and a couple of his friends got really into like making slideshow of their interests on the computer and like just, I mean just dumb stuff. Exactly. Like it's like he had like different cars he likes with music in the background and the car would do an animation. Like at some level I was like the world kind of like we don't know what the future holds. But like I think PowerPoint's gonna be a part of it. Cause it's like never gonna die. But like you know, he's prepared for the future workplace and making A sick, like just, you know, psych up slide of these kind of things.
- [17:38]
B
He's doing it because he wants to.
- [17:40]
A
Absolutely.
- [17:41]
B
Right. And that's the thing. I mean these are real skills, but owned by the child.
- [17:45]
A
Absolutely.
- [17:46]
B
So I think just in terms of self esteem, the capacity to be self driven, I think those muscles get built on hobbies and can transfer well.
- [17:55]
A
And I remember even in articles that we have done on our website, videos we've done, we talk about self esteem. And the phrase that we use in self esteem is encourage the child's exposure to as many activities as possible so that they can build up mastery, perseverance, like all kinds of stuff. I shouldn't have listed mastery first. That wasn't growth mindset of me. Perseverance and persistence, that kind of stu in these activities. But like, I. You're. You're the first person to make me think that, like, that actually sounded a little bit like our friend Jennifer Wallace would be like a little pressure driven. Like it sounds a little bit like we're being like, build your kid's resume.
- [18:27]
B
Yeah.
- [18:28]
A
That's what builds self esteem. And that's not like we are saying separate from the resume, hobbies, do something. Yeah.
- [18:34]
B
That it's worthy in its own right and that also may contribute to future success. But I think the worthiness in its own right, we've overlooked a little bit.
- [18:42]
A
And the thing that I was also thinking about with like the Screenmates hobbies was there's a patient who's super into birds and like, is into this bird app that like he can take into the woods and listen to any bird and then find out about a bird. And I'm like, that's a use of screens as a tool to gain more information. Like become an expert. Like this kid's gonna be. I don't know what a bird person is. An ornithologist. I don't know what that is, but something like that. Yeah, exactly. They're gonna end up studying birds or something. It's gonna be great.
- [19:08]
B
It's gonna be great.
- [19:09]
A
Yeah. But right. Maybe it matters. It's still a hobby, right?
- [19:12]
B
It matters.
- [19:13]
A
I made that all about career focus. I gotta conditioning. I was like, this person's gonn. And like, maybe they just like birds and they're instead going to be in
- [19:21]
B
sanitation or that skill set that he developed in a. Also, we don't need to get into the weeds of his intrinsic motivation. Nobody has to make him do it. It's coming from inside. He's building a skill set that he's like, oh, apps can be used to do this and this and this and that can transfer. But even if it never transfers, even if it never transfers, he takes, I hope, great pride in knowing more about birds than anybody in his whole family.
- [19:45]
A
So sleep, meals, hobbies. We'll look at our list next. I've already referenced this, the growth mindset, because I'm undermining my own conditioning as we're talking. But let's talk about Dweck.
- [19:55]
B
Yes, let's talk about Dweck. Okay, so you and I both know it's pretty rare for academic psychology to generate wildly useful, incredibly practical ideas. So, Carol Dweck, Stanford, we are applauding this.
- [20:10]
A
For those of you who are listening,
- [20:11]
B
100% came up with brilliant, brilliant model. There's basically two kinds of thinkers, though. I'm gonna then trouble that. People with a growth mindset. People with a fixed mindset. People with a growth mindset feel like the skills I have are the ones I started with. They get me going and effort will take me the rest of the way. People with a fixed mindset are the skills I have. Are the skills I have. Gosh, I hope I got lucky in the skill set.
- [20:32]
A
I'm either good at math or I'm not.
- [20:33]
B
I'm good at math or bad. That's it. Right?
- [20:34]
A
Yeah.
- [20:35]
B
The way I hold the trouble of this is what I have found is all of us are a little bit growth. All of us are a little bit fixed.
- [20:41]
A
Right. I think even Dweck would update it to a spectrum now. Not so much a two pole. Like, you know, that kind of. Yes.
- [20:47]
B
But like. Or like, I. I am very fixed about my sense of direction. I have none. I never will. I'm very growth about my capacity as a knitter. I believe I can knit anything with time. Yeah, Right. And enough for me.
- [20:58]
A
I'm very fixed about my capacity as a knitter.
- [20:59]
B
Yeah. Okay.
- [21:00]
A
I'm sure about my fine motor skills. I feel you right here. Like, I get this. Okay.
- [21:03]
B
Yeah. But what we see, and this is research that's done so beautifully by her team, is that it drives everything in terms of how school feels and how everything else feels. So I'll give a few examples. Growth mindset kid gets feedback from a teacher. They're like, thank you. That helps me know how to point my efforts. A fixed mindset kid gets feedback from a teacher. They're like, this is humiliating because you're commenting on things I cannot change. A growth mindset kid has a more talented classmate. There's always a more talented Classmate, of course, they look at that kid and they think, okay, I may not catch you, but what are you doing? That I could learn from fixed mindset kid looks at that talented classmate and thinks, this is embarrassing to me. You will always be better. There's nothing I can do. Growth mindset kid is the last one I'll do, but I could do this all day.
- [21:46]
A
Exactly.
- [21:47]
B
Comes across hard work and they're like, okay, this is going to be tough, but I will gain capacity as I go fix mindset kid comes across hard work and says, you know what? I think I'm smart and if I try to do this and I can't do it, it'll mean I'm not smart, so I'm not going to try. So everything flows.
- [22:05]
A
And what I will always add to that when outlining this concept to parents is the notion that parental talk in those situations to k governs what self talk. Like, because if you're sitting there and like, you know, they're doing homework in an early grade and you're like, what is this? This is math. You're good at math. Just do the math.
- [22:24]
B
Yes.
- [22:24]
A
Like, that is different than, honey, I'm sit down next to you. You know, like, I understand this emotional situation. Maybe there are tears, maybe we've broken two pencils, but like, we're going to sit on this and we're going to look a little bit at these math problems and see what we can't figure out. Maybe we get the solution, maybe we don't. Like, but it's there. And it's like just that difference in terms of a parent sitting down in that situation could make it so. The self talk in high school is more this, especially given that we've already said the family dinners may not involve them bringing you one and being like, here's how I thought about a math test today. Can you help me get to where Dweck would want me to be? You know, that kind of stuff.
- [22:58]
B
No, it's true. And I think, well meaning parents can sometimes be like, you know what? You're not. I'm not good at math. You're not good at math. Right. And now math is gone.
- [23:06]
A
Yeah.
- [23:07]
B
And that's not good. I had the honor of consulting for 20 years at a school in my community, and we had many brilliant teachers who said many brilliant things. One of my favorite came from a woman named Megan Weiskopf, who when handing work to her students is the best growth mindset line I'd ever heard, she'd say, listen, this is hard because it's hard. And it was basically her saying, I'm giving you hard work on purpose. You're gonna find this challenging. That's the whole plan. And I just have always loved that line. So sitting down next to a kid who's like, I'm confounded by this math. Just say to them, look, this is hard because it's hard. I have every confidence you're gonna find your way through it.
- [23:45]
A
I tell my patients that there was a moment in college when I thought that like there's a project that I was behind on in class, you know, for any number of reasons, I had been distracted by cool college activities and then hadn't done this project. And I was in our college's all night cafe and I like, I'm prone to anxiety, so I'm like starting to freak out. I'm starting to get hot. I'm starting to like think like, oh my God, I'm gonna have a panic attack over this assignment. I've got, you know, maybe I can sleep like 3am to 7am, but I gotta work till 3. And I remember the friend sit across from me just said, I'm just going to park my butt in this chair for six hours and see what comes out. And I thought to myself, like, I'm so focused on the fact that I have to be done at 3 in the morning. And my friend was so good at just like. And that phrase, park my butt?
- [24:25]
B
Yeah, like work.
- [24:26]
A
That became my work mantra for the last, you know, 25 years. It's just like park my butt, like that's what I'm gonna do.
- [24:32]
B
And then the work. Okay.
- [24:34]
A
And the reality is I only have so much time and I'm just, you know, I gotta, I gotta deal with what comes. Like that's it.
- [24:38]
B
I love that.
- [24:39]
A
Yeah.
- [24:39]
B
All right. You reminded me.
- [24:40]
A
It says unrelated, you know, the mantras.
- [24:42]
B
Well, it was actually a mantra. It was the first time in my teaching that growth mindset really came across. And it was in my postdoc. So I had finished my degree and I was doing a two year postdoc at Michigan. And we had a woman on the faculty at Michigan named Irene Fast who had won all of these awards for theory building. She was brilliant. Also brilliant.
- [25:03]
A
Irene Fast.
- [25:03]
B
Irene Fast. But we were scared of her. I mean, she was just this sort of doyenne of all brilliance in the building. And I was taking a theory heavy class with her. Her just sort of like on the side during my postdoc and she gave us these incredibly dense theoretical papers that are basically not Even in English, but they are sure. And I worked my way through it. And we got to class, and she was sitting there was like, four of us. And she said, okay, everybody turn to the third paragraph on the second page. And I was thinking she was about to ask us for, like, our take on it. And I was about to do what I had done through a lot of my education, which is kind of like that. You know, the semiotics of the hermeneutics of the, like, you know, where you just kind of BS your way through not knowing. And Irene says, I had no idea what this paragraph was saying. Did any of you get a foothold in it at all? And I was like, if Irene doesn't know, I don't have to know. And I will tell you, I was in, like, what, 26th grade at this point?
- [26:12]
A
Right?
- [26:13]
B
Like, I mean, it was ridiculous. And I was like, you were an
- [26:15]
A
elective class on postdoc, which most people are not doing at that time. Yeah.
- [26:19]
B
Why is this the first time in my entire education that I have been given permission to be completely at a loss in face of the work? So I think it's powerful stuff.
- [26:29]
A
That's brilliant. I mean, I hope there are teachers listening who decide to then be a little bit, like, open about their own, you know, wrestling material.
- [26:35]
B
Absolutely.
- [26:36]
A
This also reminds me of something that I feel like is also going away from, like, a polar thing that I used to do, you know, when I was teaching grad students, you know, to sign kind of like classic readings within psychology. Like, I was teaching assessment classes and evidence based intervention for adolescents and children and that kind of stuff. And when I was teaching, I'd say, like, look, I'm not trying to in any way infringe on free speech. I'm just telling you that I think whether you like the article or not is the cheapest opinion you can have. And I would just kind of, like, demean that right out of the gate. And I just kind of say, like,
- [27:05]
B
that's not why I'm assigning.
- [27:06]
A
Exactly. We can just, like, move beyond that because we'll be like, I don't like this guy's writing. And I would be like, I don't know if I like the writing either, but I'm assigning it to you for a reason. Maybe divine something more than, like, whether or not I want you to. Thumbs up or thumbs down. Like, like that kind of stuff. But it was, like, it helped me to get my classes to actually wrestle with material instead of just go like, I really liked the point the Author made about this, and I will take that forward in my therapy.
- [27:30]
B
Yeah.
- [27:30]
A
And I'd be like, yes, that was a good point. But also, you know, let's get in this. You also, therapy isn't always about doing the techniques you like either. Where, like, the kids would be like, the kids. These were oftentimes kids about the same age as me. But, like, you know, when they would say, like, I like this strategy, I'd be like, yeah. Like, I don't. I mean, like, DBT is not my, like, strong suit as a person. I don't slow down. Well, I think I'd be with Irene Fast on this. Like, it's just like the. The notion of distress tolerance, mindfulness, like, fading into my daily. Like, I was more like, CBT was the answer. I was like, you mean, there are techniques that can make it so that we can control any feeling we want? And then it was like, oh, no, third wave psychology came around because we can't control everything. And that was where I had difficulty slowing down. But if it's useful to a patient, I gotta kinda think about this, even if I don't love it as much.
- [28:19]
B
Well, and just on that point, what we know from the research is the longer people practice, the more they use an amalgam of things because of a growth mindset approach. Like, this isn't working. Let's try something else. Those are the better clinicians.
- [28:30]
A
And I always think that it's something where I want the tool to be more than just Dave's thoughts. But at the same time, if it's something I can bring to bear quickly to know better, someone's, you know, processing that, I'm going to do it. Okay, so getting to some of our other list of things, let's talk about adaptability and emotional durability.
- [28:50]
B
Okay.
- [28:50]
A
Those are two that you have thrown out there. I think they're similar.
- [28:53]
B
I think they do overlap. So especially in the context of uncertainty about the future, we're going to need to be adaptable, all of us. And we have wonderful research on adaptability. The kids who can be creative. Excuse me. We have wonderful research on adaptability. Adaptability. That kids who can be creative in the face of uncertainty have better, well, being better outcomes overall. And so I think what's really fun is that this is something we can practice at home. Right. And something we can model at home. I think that it often goes best if you anticipate situations where kids are going to need to be adaptable. Right. So maybe they're starting at a new school. So you say, okay, there's going to be some stuff that's familiar and some stuff that's really different. You're going to have to be ready to kind of go with the flow and ask for help and let people know what questions you have.
- [29:40]
A
It's gonna be a learning experience regardless.
- [29:42]
B
You're not gonna know how this is gonna unfold. You're gonna have to figure it out as you go. Similarly, I think there's great opportunities to model adaptability at home. Like, I think about when I had a plan for dinner and then somebody ate a key ingredient. Right. And so then I have to figure it out. Right. And so that's a great time to be like, okay, well, I thought I was gonna make this.
- [30:00]
A
Nodding somberly for those listening to us. Yes, exactly.
- [30:03]
B
The indignities of midlife. Right.
- [30:05]
A
Or someone eats something before it was ready.
- [30:09]
B
But then just to say, all right, this wasn't my plan, I gotta come up with a second plan. Right. And just to model that as natural to functioning and just part of how life goes. It seems like small potatoes, but I actually think if we look at who thrives over time, people who can be like, well, this isn't what I wanted, but I'm gonna make it work, do a lot differently than people who are like, this isn't what I had in mind. So now I'm stuck. Okay. Which then gets to being able to toler discomfort and emotional durability.
- [30:40]
A
You know, you need to be flexible.
- [30:41]
B
You gotta be flexible.
- [30:42]
A
Like feelings are also happening.
- [30:43]
B
Doesn't feel great. Exactly. So I think we cannot overstate the importance of appreciating that we're all going to have a fair bit of discomfort every single day, and it is totally unavoidable. Yep. And again, the great divide is who is able to get themselves back to level in healthy ways. Right. Go for a walk, phone a friend, do an angry dance, whatever you need. And who becomes upset and cannot pull themselves out of it or turns to unhealthy ways of managing it, goes and gets high. I think all the time. We want to remember that emotionality and fragility are not the same thing. You can be very emotional. Doesn't mean you're fragile. Upon becoming upset, the job is to figure out what will help you get to a place where you feel like you can move forward. That's all we're looking for.
- [31:50]
A
And not necessarily un upset. No, like just moving, Just moving. We're just keeping moving through. The only way is through here.
- [31:56]
B
Yep, exactly. And then, of course, you and I know we come up against depression, anxiety disorders. Right. Which have crossed a line into pathology. And we have treatments that are actually very, very good, but which are often
- [32:07]
A
incremental and require us to say to a person, I can't make you feel better tomorrow. This is going to be like hair growing. I can make it look better in a few weeks. Yes, but we're going to be doing a little tinkering with a little toolbox over time.
- [32:19]
B
Yes. And that's why I like the term durability. It's not like emotional Zen, right? No, that doesn't really. It's not an option.
- [32:26]
A
There's nothing we give parents to make their kids stop crying at the dinner table or stop crying over something their sibling did or stop yelling about something they're angry about. We can give tools that over time, will cause those reactions to be better weathered.
- [32:40]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. A little distance on it. There's a wonderful thing. I remember it was a supervisor of mine, Kerry Kelly Novak, when I was in training, said, you name drop mentors
- [32:51]
A
better than anybody else.
- [32:52]
B
Well, actually, it's a matter of crediting. It's a matter of. I really feel like when people have informed my thinking, I want to really give them their due. And I've had such extraordinary teachers along the way. And she said, you know, we have the strangest of all jobs as clinicians because our job is to help people get in touch with their feelings, name their feelings, recognize their feelings, see where they come up, and then once we've done all that good work, to say, and it's just a feeling. It's just a feeling. So I think there's something in there about what we're saying together, which is distress is a done deal. It's a matter of finding ways to get to where you can move forward in the face of it.
- [33:30]
A
And so when I think about this. So we're gonna do one more that I just think is, like, really important that you. You have highlighted. But it's just like. Because I just kind of like it. And then I think what we can do is sum up, like, what this prep now looks like for the future. But can we talk about have your kid get a job job?
- [33:50]
B
I'm obsessed with jobs.
- [33:52]
A
Like, have your kid get a job job.
- [33:54]
B
Okay. So this, you know, I always try to acknowledge when something's coming from personal experience. So I have a daughter who is about to graduate from college, and when I look at her college, she's actually graduating. She graduates in the third week of May.
- [34:11]
A
I was gonna say, we're like talking two weeks out right now. We'll probably air this after the graduation. Okay.
- [34:15]
B
So she's a recent college graduate.
- [34:16]
A
She's a recent college graduate.
- [34:17]
B
She's a recent college graduate.
- [34:19]
A
Nothing's happened between now 100% and when
- [34:22]
B
I think about what prepared her for college. Yeah. I'm going to give half the credit to her wonderful high school, Shaker Heights High School in.
- [34:29]
A
We got Shaker Heights. This is great. Crediting mentors and Shaker Heights High School in public school. Exactly. There we go.
- [34:34]
B
And half the credit to the job she had at a retail store in our community that was configured such that it was in a market hall. So the front of the retail store was on an open space so that she, at age 16 and 17, was safe to go open the store by herself, run it by herself, and close it by herself. Because there were always people around. The amount of responsibility, growth, dealing with tricky customers completely and having to deal with someone who's trying to return something
- [35:08]
A
they're wearing, and emotional durability. I'm totally with you. Absolutely.
- [35:12]
B
Dealing with adults, dealing with money, learning the value of money, what she would buy, and then it wasn't what she was hoping for, and then thinking about how many hours she worked dealing with likely.
- [35:25]
A
I won't say this is to a person, but over empowered managers.
- [35:28]
B
She had fabulous managers in this case.
- [35:30]
A
Okay, got it.
- [35:31]
B
But working for a boss, right? I mean, learning what it's like to work for a boss, getting feedback about your performance when there's something actually retail
- [35:39]
A
job shift out of the management of this retail.
- [35:41]
B
Absolutely. Like retail jobs, restaurant jobs, they, I think are sort of the yin to the yang of high school. Right. High school prepares you for all sorts of things academic. I think jobs prepare you for life in a different kind of way.
- [35:55]
A
Did you have an early formative job job?
- [35:57]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. I. I always worked. I always worked. I. I loved work and. But When I was 15, my parents were like, we will not be purchasing a car for you. And I was like, okay. So I started taking the bus to a restaurant in Denver called Chesby's, and I was the bus girl, and I was also the hostess. And I earned $900. Well, I earned more than that, but I used $900 to buy myself a 1979 diesel Volkswagen Rabbit. This was in 1986. I drove that car through high school, and I sold it for $700 when I went to college. Okay, so all of that. Right.
- [36:32]
A
That is incredible.
- [36:33]
B
I love that story. But all of that, like. And that was mine and it was my money. And I got most of it back when I sold it. And I was a different person at my job than I was at home, than I was at high school. I remember. I remember when I was hostessing, having to help people, we had a woman come in who was in a wheelchair. And I remember I was 15 and needing to say to her, talk to me about the best kind of table for me to put you at. Nothing in my life was requiring me to navigate something like that until I was in that moment. And so I just think these are
- [37:11]
A
intergenerational principles that we can carry forward. Because I would say that there's certain things where I really want to give credit to things that are gotten right across generations. Because, you know, my. My first job was at a CD store. Now I'm dating myself. But, you know, just because I really thought it was going to be like the movie Empire Records. But it was not so much, but it was big box retail store that sold CDs, books and, you know, DVDs. And it was like one of those things no longer. Yeah, no longer exists. None of them exist. Like books. Basically the only thing that stood the test of time, amazingly, you know, on this. But it was like, to your point, like it hit home for me that like, I was a different person there.
- [37:46]
B
Yes.
- [37:46]
A
And part of it was also that, like, you know, talking to things I told my father he was doing wrong at that time, but actually did right was he had a big speech about needs and wants. And he was like, you got some wants. I'm not willing to worry about those wants.
- [37:56]
B
Yeah, you can go get a job in paper.
- [37:57]
A
You can go and pay at the CD store for this kind of stuff and you know, you can get the wants. Okay, so Chad, our producer has raised his hand up over the wall of monitors he's behind because he's like, guys, stop now. Reminiscing about high school jobs and if we can bring it home, please.
- [38:13]
B
Yes.
- [38:13]
A
I mean, look, this is a number of wonderful things that we're talking about. About like, you know what, what I think we're talking about are these kinds of like multi purpose, you know, Swiss army knife of where it's like, we're not saying that you or I know what the challenges of the future will be. We're saying develop the lifestyle practices and the skills, skill sets. Yeah, right. That make it so that should challenges come about whatever it is, if like an AI robot goes rogue and starts destroying your town.
- [38:39]
B
Yes.
- [38:39]
A
Like, we want to be. Well rested.
- [38:40]
B
Yes.
- [38:41]
A
We want to make sure that you have hobbies maybe that you can utilize for this.
- [38:45]
B
Yes, but in the sense of like, I can do hard things that no one's asking me to.
- [38:49]
A
The growth mindset, Adaptive emotional durability. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about Nick Offerman's character in the Last of Us Now. But you know, this is a prepper who like figures out how to prepare for a zombie apocalypse, but you know these things. So this is to be prepared for the future. Or zombies.
- [39:03]
B
Or zombies.
- [39:04]
A
Right. Whatever happens. Whatever happens, exactly.
- [39:06]
B
Absolutely.
- [39:06]
A
Or a beautiful human future that involves all of us caring for each other and engaging in wonderful relationships together.
- [39:11]
B
That would be great too.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah, exactly. I love that. All right, well, thank you, Dr. Lisa D', Amore, for being here on our pod on our thriving kids podcast podcast, and thank you all for listening.