← Thriving Kids
Loading summary
Transcript68 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hello and welcome to Thriving Kids from the Child mind Institute. I'm Dr. Dave Anderson, your host, and this is the podcast where we tackle real parenting questions with practical evidence based advice, all to help the kids in your life thrive. Today we're digging into a topic that's essential and often a little how to talk to kids about racism and discrimination. These conversations can feel very tricky, but they don't have to be overwhelming and they can make a big difference in how kids see themselves as and others. Joining me is Dr. Aisha Metzger, a clinical psychologist and professor at Georgia State University. Dr. Metzger brings incredible warmth and clarity to this topic, drawing on her work as a researcher, therapist, educator, and advocate. She also runs a terrific podcast called Black and Empowered and has created a whole library of free resources for families at Dr. Aisha, that's Isha Metzger. M E T Z G E R Dr. Aisha Metzger. Dr. I highly recommend checking them out and you can find them in our show notes. In this episode, we'll talk about what racism can look like at different ages, how to help kids process what they're seeing and experiencing, and how we can raise young people who feel proud of who they are and empowered to stand up for others. Doctor Metzger, can you tell us a little about how your work relates to the topic today?
- [01:20]
B
Hi Dave, thanks for having me. I would love to. My work is around helping kids cope with race and racism. It really centers around both the preparatory mechanisms and processes that caregivers and parents go through, but also those that happen after the fact responding from racism. I do this work in a couple ways. I work directly with clinicians who are working with black families and other families who deal with racism. My research is around racial socialization and the impact of racism. And then I'm a professor at Georgia State University, so I teach undergrads and graduate students all about the impact of racism, but also, again, how kids and families can cope with and heal from those circumstances.
- [02:11]
A
I just want to say to our listeners that every time you say Georgia State, you may notice that I smile. And this is because I'm originally from Atlanta and I know that Georgia State has taken over Turner Field as its stadium, I believe, which is where I watched the 1996 Olympics and Michael Johnson win the 200. So that's where like just have all these associations with Georgia State being home and the place where the Olympics were and all kinds of nice stuff.
- [02:35]
B
Yeah, I went to undergrad at Georgia State and I had a faculty position at UGA so I could go Dogs. But I fought really hard to get back here for many of those same reasons I lived in as undergrad. I lived in the village that we built for the 96 Olympics. So, yeah, I remember you could see
- [02:54]
A
the dorms from the highway as you're driving by. Like the whole Olympic Village.
- [02:57]
B
Exactly. Well, Georgia Tech owns it now, but I still, you know, wave fondly at my old dorm rooms right now.
- [03:05]
A
We've talked about all three Georgia institutions that no Georgian can be loyal to at all times, which is very difficult thing. There's allegiances want us to choose.
- [03:13]
B
Exactly.
- [03:14]
A
So getting back to our topic and away from the state of Georgia, if we can just start with some definitions for folks. So how do you define racism in your work? How do you highlight kind of different types of racism that people might encounter? Let's start there.
- [03:27]
B
Yeah. So I always talk about racism as a broad system of advantage and disadvantage that is just based on race or ethnicity or the way you look in your culture. Right. So that's really important to just set the stage in terms of. It's this broader system of things that happen. But then when we think about the different types of racism, like you're asking about, I think what we most commonly think about is discrimination, which is an individual or what we call interpersonal, so between people, form of racism. But there's also institutional racism. So for the caregivers and the kiddos who have interactions with schools, Right. We can think about policies, practices, discipline, and how those sorts of of institutional policies impact kids as well as in between systems. There are those interrelations or in between institutions. So for example, the school system and the social services system or the justice system are all interrelated. And that's where we start to think about structural and systemic racism. Those are the main forms. But there's also environmental racism. So things like redlining and zoning and different, again, more inequities that exist in our environment, environmental quality in some cases that do lead to neighborhood violence, vying for resources, for example. So again, some of those more distal or outside forces that do impact families, they do impact kiddos. And then across time. So when I say families. Right. So parents and kiddos have different experiences. We can think about inter generational transmission of kind of racism and its impact. And that's kind of historical racism. So you hear some caregivers talk about current things that are happening, like Trayvon Martin, but then older things like Rodney King. Right. So those kind of historical conversations all impact the ways parents and kiddos navigate racism and experience it as well, and
- [05:43]
A
what I expect for our listeners is that outside of looking up, you know, Olympic stars at the beginning of our conversation, you know what, what you just gave are a, a number of terms that are going to have show notes, resources, if people want to understand. Like, because, for example, you know, I, I find that lots of people will nod along when talking about things like redlining or looking at structural and systemic racism or, you know, there's lots of kids today who do not remember or not remember weren't even alive during Rodney King and yet, you know, don't really understand the kind of central nature of that event. So you've given a lot of things I think people can do research on because I think we're going to pivot to the practical in a moment. I think the other thing that I expect is a light bulb for some listeners where I find, and you can tell me if you find this. Do you find that all too often people define racism only as that interpersonal one to one action and say, well, this is why I don't have to worry about it because I'm not racist. I don't do racist things in one to one interactions. Like, is that, is that a common.
- [06:44]
B
Yeah, definitely. I think that immediately our instinct is to think not only one on one, but it's also to think intentional. So if I didn't intend to offend anyone, then of course that couldn't have been a racist encounter. Another thing that I do when I talk about racism is I provide the vocabulary to really understand, okay, maybe you didn't intend for that to happen, but the impact was in some cases violent. And we talk about microaggressions and we give definitions around microaggression so people know, okay, it also doesn't have to be old fashioned, which is a, like a micro assault. Right. So it doesn't again have to be like a racist slur. But it could be a micro insult where you think you're complimenting me, but you're actually insulting me. So things like you're so well spoken for a black person is insulting to suggest that all black people are not. Or microinvalidation is not bothering to pronounce someone's name correctly or mistaking two people of the same race touching someone's hair without asking. Right. Like these invalidate our personhood. And I think that yes, they are a part of what we think about in terms of racism or discrimination. So those interpersonal or individual instances. But again, it can be blatant or it can be like I'm describing Some of these kind of day to day, immediate, unintentional, in some cases slights, and then in other ways. Another piece of education that I always try to provide is that it doesn't even have to be direct. Right. It can be a vicarious experience that your kiddo's having, whether that be watching something happen in school or hearing about something on the news, or literally logging onto social media and scrolling and seeing something racist or discriminatory that negatively impacts the way they think about themselves, the way they think about others, their sense of safety. So that vicarious, whether or not, again, individual or not exposure also does harm our kiddos. And these are things that we need to be thinking about in terms of our role as caregiver and parent is how do I help my kids prepare for this and how do I help them respond? Right.
- [09:00]
A
So we're going to get into the preparedness and the response in a moment. But just to kind of keep drilling down on why it's so important to be aware of all of these different definitions, types, kind of ways of interacting. What impact do we see if, for example, folks aren't aware or this kind of behavior kind of continues? Or what do people report when they feel like, they feel like there's a world that is kind of constructed such that people are aware of this and actively trying to change it.
- [09:28]
B
Yeah, and I love that you asked what do people report? Because you're going to hear different things from different people. For example, a teacher might report a non compliant kiddo, a kiddo who's aggressive and withdrawn. A kiddo who is hypervigilant, whereas the kiddo might be reporting stomach aches and headaches and everyone being against them and unfair disciplinary practices. And a caregiver might say, oh, it's anxiety and depression and my kiddo's sad and worried. Right. So all of these things, right? The internalizing, the externalizing. I just described some physiological or some physical consequences. All of these are going to differ depending on who you're talking to or who you're asking. Or again, a kiddos kind of innate responses. And also what is necessary to mention is that kiddos might have trauma reactions. So it might seem as if they might be presenting. Right. Like they have I mentioned hyper vigilant but also re experiencing and flashbacks. Right. I keep seeing George Floyd get murdered. Right. That's a trauma reaction to a racial stressor. We call it racial trauma, but it might just look like ptsd. I talked about hypervigilance. I gave the example earlier about someone touching your hair I might flinch if someone reaches towards me. And I think oftentimes when we're talking about racism, that hypervigilance, that startle response is really easy to really just draw the connection back to. Okay, if you have a kiddo who's being physically abused at home, he might flinch if you reach towards him unexpectedly. The same is said for a kiddo who's experiencing racism. Maybe disproportionate consequences. At school, a teacher talks to them or asks them a question, and they already assume they're in trouble, so they're on guard and they're defensive. So all of those things are kind of our behavioral, our internal as well as our physical responses to racism.
- [11:43]
A
So making a couple of critical choices in our conversation, there's obviously a huge area of kind of the topic that we could move into on how we say, help adults in certain environments to undermine these particular things. But since our focus here is on parents, caregivers, and kids.
- [12:01]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:02]
A
I'm going to turn to an earlier point you said, which is just if we're facing all of these different ways that, you know, kids can encounter racism, discrimination, how do parents start preparing their kids from an early age for what they're going to encounter? And I want to say, as another way of unpacking this question, how do parents prepare kids who are going to encounter racism by virtue of the fact that they are part of a race that is commonly a target of racism? And how do parents also prepare their kids when they don't expect their kids to encounter racism? Let's. Let's go with that.
- [12:34]
B
Yeah. And this is such an important topic. It's one that parents of all races have to contend with. Right. What I will say is that just like parents struggle with socializing their kids around, like the birds and the bees conversation, we say start those conversations early by identifying body parts in. Right. Biologically appropriate and developmentally appropriate ways, by talking about privacy and safety and healthy touches. Right. We do the exact same thing.
- [13:04]
A
This is an entire episode we have with Dr. Angela Glimp at the Peer Health Exchange on sex, consent and safety. So that's a good cross promote, but yes.
- [13:11]
B
Yeah. And hopefully a part of that episode was right. How do we start that conversation? Early on, you don't want to have your kid going on their first date and you're like, okay, let me tell you about the birds and the bees and how you negotiate condom use if this kiddo. Right, Absolutely. Early on, about how do you identify healthy partners and what's the sign of a fair and, you know, relationship that allows you to feel free and your best self and you build up your kiddo's self esteem so someone can't use that against them. Right. We do the same thing with race and racism. We build up our kids self esteem and their pride. So if someone says you're pretty for a dark skinned girl, you're, you're saying, okay, why are you surprised by that? I know a ton of pretty dark skinned girl and my mom tells me I'm pretty all the time. And Right. My Barbie dolls are dark skinned. And so we build up their pride, we build up their sense of self and we prepare them for some things that they might encounter. So some kids might treat you differently because of the way that you look and in those cases, this is how we respond. Or you might have conversations about things that your kiddos are seeing on social media. Right. There's a recent example of a caregiver who posted a picture of their kid online and they were doing their hair for the first day of school. And this caregiver got responses on their post about, oh, your kid's hair looks like cauliflower. And I know it must be so hard to deal with their hair and it could have turned into bullying. But the caregiver had to say one, I need to make a decision in this moment right now. Am I going to allow my kiddo to internalize this or are we just going to fall back on what it is that we know? Yes, my kiddo's hair does look like cauliflower. And that's so interesting and fun and beautiful. And did you know that it also stretches to be this long? And did you know that we care for it in these ways? So just having those conversations early and often, building up their pride and then showing them how to respond. So if someone says, your hair looks like cauliflower, you can respond and say, you know, that's my favorite vegetable. Your hair looks like spaghetti. I love spaghetti. Right. So you can talk to kids about their identity, their background, their family. You can cook traditional meals. Right. So the short answer is early and often. The longer answer is, check out some of our resources and our books and have these activities and go through the process of what's called racial socialization. Right.
- [15:51]
A
So to ask a question that I think I see with a lot of my patients of color, and for those of you listening, you may not be aware of this necessarily if you haven't looked at me on video, but I'm a white man, so you know, obviously there are certain things that I might encounter or know about in the world and certain things that I don't necessarily grow up with. So one of the things I wonder about is, you know, I hear when you talk about preparing kids, the notion of building up pride in all facets of your identity, the notion of being able to stand up for oneself in the face of things that are said that are racist. And I mean, you, you were even, I mean, you're particularly strong in, in thinking about it, that you're restructuring people in the moment around what they're kind of saying. You also paradoxically, you know, took on the cauliflower comment, you know, as a source of pride.
- [16:39]
B
What.
- [16:40]
A
When kids hear these things and they say, and this is, this is going to my patients, I'm exhausted. Like, I'm exhausted by the preparation that I have to have for educating, taking in stride, paradoxically thinking this, building up pride in my identity. Like, what, what do we say back to that in preparing kids?
- [16:57]
B
Yeah, we, we pause, we acknowledge, we validate, and we balance that with. Ironically, this is a strategy of racial socialization, because this is the practice that we've been having to utilize since if we're talking about anti black racism in the United States, we can point to slavery. Right. But we know that it goes back even further than that in that if we're working hard and we're dealing with something exhausting, we also rest twice as much. We also rely on our spirituality and our religious beliefs as a higher power to help us. We know that God helps those who help themselves, so we reach out for support when necessary. We also include our extended family members in our child rearing, in our coping skills, in responding to racism and activating civically. Right. So all of these things are components of racial socialization. That's to say that it sounds like common sense. It is common in that a lot of black families are using it, but that a part of the psychoeducation, a part of the research and the outreach that I do as a psychologist is to educate folks so that they can say, oh, okay, these are the things I'm doing at home. Maybe these are a few more conversations that we can add to really reinforce this message. But it is, you're right, it's so exhausting. It is a continual process. It's not just a conversation. Right. So we start by just validating that.
- [18:45]
A
So for those who are so. You know, I think a lot of the examples that you were giving in that portion of the conversation were someone who at that moment is a direct victim of perhaps racist Acts, racist comments. How do we prepare kids in terms of conversations to be an ally or to think about how they intervene when they witness this?
- [19:06]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I know that for caregivers, they're going to have that question. Right. I think we always want to teach our kiddos to if you see something, do something. Right. So how do you speak up in a safe way?
- [19:21]
A
Yeah, it's all over the New York subway, near offices. Absolutely.
- [19:23]
B
Right, Right. So we reinforce that same message. We give kids vocabulary that they can use. So a lot of times kids will say, I can see that it's wrong, but I don't know what to say. And literally I say, just call it out. That's wrong. That's not okay. We don't use that word. Let's include everyone. We celebrate differences. You can blatantly disagree. I actually like her hair. And I know a lot of people with beautiful dark skin. Right. So just speaking up. I think that practicing with kiddos is really important. So one thing that culturally we do is right. We call it joaning or right preparing kids with comebacks, but that's typically when someone is bullying you or teasing you. We also can role play and should role play. What do you do if you see it happening with someone else? So we give those kids those keywords, but we also tell them, listen, you don't have to deal with it alone. If you see something, go talk to an adult who you can trust. How do you identify safe adults? And we say, if someone doesn't listen the first time, keep saying it. Check in with the kiddo, your classmate, whoever it is, your friend, your peer. You can ask them, are you okay? You can say, I saw what happened. I know that wasn't right. I always say it in the moment. Oftentimes, kids will say, yeah, they told me that they saw it and that it wasn't fair, but they told me after class when no one was around. So teach your kids about being brave, speaking up in the moment if they see something. You know, reminding them that silence is sometimes even more harmful. It can seem as if you agree with something if you don't speak up. So really, just speaking up and saying that's not right or I don't agree will identify you as a safe space, as an ally, as someone that kiddos can come to. I know.
- [21:19]
A
Oh, sorry. Yeah.
- [21:20]
B
No, I was gonna say, one of the things that also comes up is right. Like, what do I do if my kid is the one who says something?
- [21:31]
A
I was trying to figure out a phrase. That exact thing.
- [21:33]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [21:34]
A
What do you do if you find out your kid is the one who said the thing and either other kids are talking about it or you hear about it from a teacher or that kind of thing?
- [21:42]
B
Yeah. And you see how we both even kind of hesitated before talking about that. I feel like that is one of the touchy subjects that people are. You know, it feels like a crisis in the moment because again, oftentimes these things are unintentional. And I think that our push is to show this wasn't my intention. I always encourage caregivers. Parents, talk to your kids first. You as a caregiver, stay calm. It's not necessarily a crisis. Right. It is a normal developmental mistake. Hopefully you've been having conversations around race and culture and you can just use it as a teachable moment. So these things typically happen. It's not a crisis. We're just going to acknowledge the harm. So again, that wasn't right. I shouldn't have said that my words hurt someone. Right. Even if you didn't intend to. So again, it's the impact, I'm sorry that I hurt you or just recognizing it. I do like to think about just kind of how to respond if you're a caregiver. Just think the three Rs reflect, repair and relearn. So how do I reflect? How did that make them feel? Was that fair? Could it have been harmful? Repair is to say, I'm sorry. Let's apologize. How can I make it right? Do not overburden the repair. Right. Like, do not force me to accept your apology. Do not chase me down and harass me now because you're feeling guilty. Again, not a crisis, but repair and then relearn. Here's how I can grow from this. Here's how I'm going to do better. Here's how I'm going to correct. And really with those three simple things that, you know, really kind of potentially big situation then can just be narrowed down for a kid to be something that they can manage. Right? So I'm going to reflect, I'm going to repair and then I'm going to relearn. And that I think is a three step process that also for caregivers just makes it easier.
- [23:45]
A
I could not be nodding more vigorously to your operational because just like, you know, is the thing as a behaviorist, it's like I spend so much time talking with parents about the nature of the apology, what should be said. You know, we see adults all the time being like, now you guys, you know, accept the apology and shake Hands, like, shake this off, like that kind of thing. I care so much, and I. I emphasize this in. In couples therapy with kids, with adults, about what people do in demonstrating that they're maturing and growing from this thing. Because to your point, I worry so much that we see a lot of societal discussions where people are convinced that the object is to never appear as if they made a mistake.
- [24:26]
B
Right.
- [24:26]
A
Or to your talk of, like, intent versus impact to make sure that people know they never intended to cause the harm that they harm they cause.
- [24:34]
B
Yeah.
- [24:35]
A
All of us make mistakes. All of us cause harm to people we love, care about. Even people that we don't realize necessarily deserve consideration in a particular moment. Like, we can own up to that particular thing. Notice that we've, you know, caused that impact. And I feel like we. The more we're judging people's character by how they learn from and demonstrate they're growing, not the fact that they're so good at saying I'm sorry. You know, that's. That's the key.
- [24:59]
B
Yeah. So much of the work that we do is to really just give a process to those things that people are already doing or that people are genuinely wanting to learn how to do, and really just validating both of those things and that these are your experiences. We're going to normalize them. But that goes as far as it is concerning to experiencing racism. But also being a perpetrator of a microaggression or some form of discrimination is common.
- [25:29]
A
And I do.
- [25:30]
B
So we do want to know how to react and respond in a way that helps us heal and cope. And I always say, ultimately helps to eradicate racism. And that only happens through these processes of, yeah, sometimes damage, but also that repair that needs to take place afterwards. So I do think.
- [25:50]
A
Well, and if we can. If we can side note, just coach people and apologies for one second and things that work across microaggressions, moments of discrimination, couples therapy, all kinds of stuff. It's. The apology is about the impact of your actions and owning it, not that you're sorry the other person felt that way or you're sorry that they took it the way they did. The more we can eliminate those phrases from our apologies, the more we can honor the experience and impact of our actions. So another just question about kind of the different conversations we should have. I know we started and we were kind of talking about younger kids, and I was worried that maybe I didn't give enough space to points that we would talk about with older kids. Are there things that you're More likely to emphasize with teens where you're saying, like, now they're developmentally ready to have this conversation.
- [26:35]
B
Yeah. And I mentioned it briefly when I said engaging civically. Right. With younger kiddos, we can talk about, like playing fair and telling your teacher and telling your parents and their agency is, you know, a little less. But as they become older, we start talking about activism, we start talking about civic injustice, we start talking about peaceful protests and really using their voices and their reactions to racism to again contribute to policy change. Brown bags in town halls, continued conversations, people going out to vote, changing these larger systems and structures that also contribute to those day to day instances of racism as well.
- [27:25]
A
And when you talk to teens about this, do you feel like there are things. This is just my own curious question. Are there things they wish adults thought about more in this particular discussion that you hear?
- [27:38]
B
Yeah. With teens, I really think that it becomes a conversation about agency. Right. So it's the shift between my caregiver and my teacher and these other people who have power and how they can help, and it becomes, okay, what can I do? And I think that they are frustrated in some cases in that we always go back again, right. To removing that agency. So as much as we can empower them to respond. So how did you respond? How'd that go for you? What else might you try and then ask you, do you want or need my help? But oftentimes I think teenagers start to say, listen, I don't even need you to intervene. I just needed you to tell me I'm not crazy, I'm not angry, I'm not antisocial, validate me and empower me. But you know, any tangible resources, if I say I want to organize a peaceful protest, I might need you to help buy some posters and some markers. Right. But that's not to say that I need you to be the one to solve the problem for me. So much like with any teenager who wants their independence. Right. And they get frustrated when they don't have that independence. I think that that's some of what they wish that we as adults would do is give them that agency and that ownership over their own healing and coping as well.
- [28:53]
A
I am channeling a particular patient of mine in this. But that resonates just because I do remember one particular session where I felt great pressure to kind of help a patient problem solve a particular encounter with race discrimination, wanted to kind of help. And literally I saw a hand up from a patient who said, at the end of the day, it is just helpful that you're not gaslighting me into thinking that I'm a snowflake or that my generation is complaining about too much or things like that. That's just honoring the fact that, like, this is my experience, which in and of itself is one step, you know, one thing that can.
- [29:30]
B
Oh, my goodness. If you're talking about a client, the conversation will go nine more hours. Because we. When we. When I talk to clinicians about restructuring. Right. If we do cognitive behavioral therapy, we want to restructure everything. And the most frustrating thing for clients is we're trying to restructure their reality. Maybe it wasn't racism. Maybe the person was tired. Maybe this happened. Maybe the disciplinary consequences were fair, or maybe it was your reaction that is the most frustrating. So what we do is we restructured their response. We validate their experience. We validate their reaction, even if it was right. Anger and aggression, totally normal. Totally get it. And then we restructure. Okay. How could we respond in a proactive way? How could we have a comeback ready next time? How could we react in a way that doesn't leave you disengaged from class? Right. Because it doesn't have to be that kiddos are fighting and getting in fights. They can just say, I'm not raising my hand in class anymore. I'm not talking to these teachers. I'm not going to that extracurricular activity. So how can we get them to restructure their response to. In these cases, just approach. Right. As opposed to avoid or write a letter to advocate for yourself as opposed to talking if you know you're not being heard.
- [30:52]
A
Right. Well, I think you expertly bring up kind of a point with CBT that we're always wary of when people are kind of applying it more bluntly or in a less experienced fashion. Because, you know, I always think, like, every time I present on cbt, I think we present on, you know, I try to shy away from, like, the language of, like, cognitive distortions, or we might call them with kids thinking trash points.
- [31:14]
B
Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah, right. But we're.
- [31:17]
A
We're always saying, like, there are moments when we also want to say to somebody, your thinking is completely accurate. Like, this is. You're not wrong. There's nothing to restructure in this moment. You're not projecting a negative consequence. You're not labeling. You're not only seeing the negative details. Like, sometimes it is just a hellscape out there. Our job is to say, that was incredibly distressing and validate that particular cognition, not restructure in any way. And to your point, I think there's often this complaint with CBT that stressors in life. And again, this is the difference between the nuances of CBT versus, like a blunt look at it. We'll see a stressor in life and we'll think, here's how I'm gonna help you cope off the ball. We're gonna do these other things to fill your cup and help you care for yourself. When what I think you expertly kind of outlined is this notion that, like, behavioral activation and agency is just as valuable as the kind of off the ball coping. In saying to somebody like, you know, your thoughts and feelings are real and we're going to fight that particular thing in life, in particular, that being needed if anybody's going to do CBT with people encountering, you know, racism, discrimination.
- [32:20]
B
Yeah, Dave, have me back. We'll talk about each of the, each of the strategies in cbt because, yeah, we restructure our responses, we restructure our ability to, like you're describing, just cope in the moment. Right? So if I'm used to coping because I'm a fighter, I'm going to show you how to still fight, but in a proactive way that maybe doesn't get you in as much trouble. Right. John Lewis talks about good trouble. So I do talk to my teenage clients and talk to therapists about having those conversations. But you want that trouble to be proactive and value based and you want to go into it regulated. You don't want to be dysregulated and all over the place. And right now you're not able to focus on what it is that the fight even is. So, yeah, we definitely have those conversations when we are restructuring those stuck points that our clients might even have and making them, again, more culturally appropriate for them. So, yeah, that is a huge part of the work that I do as a researcher and a trainer of clinicians.
- [33:23]
A
Well, I think this is where we can get into this in another episode of this particular podcast as well, because it also looks at like, kind of what the field needs. So, like, one of the things that I think is, you know, a focus of our work at Child Mind is just that we're looking at workforce development, but in particular workforce development, where we can help people go back to, well, basically have career opportunities where from high school all the way through the barriers to entry in the mental health field, we can make it easier for folks to enter the mental health field and then feel like the people who are mental health professionals that they can see are representative of their own community. Because at the end of the day, you know, similarly, we don't want it to feel for people like it's exhausting to get their therapist to catch up with a nuanced use of CBT techniques in association with what they encounter in life. We want them to be able to feel like, okay, my therapist doesn't have to do as much catch up because at some level, you know, I can choose not to necessarily educate the therapist on my own cultural relevance, but instead know that there's some starting point. Not to say that any particular shared cultural background immediately means there's no. There's no, like, catch up that has to be done. But I think this is where we've got other episodes to talk about the nuanced use of therapeutic techniques as well as the need for representation, inclusiveness in the mental health field. But pivoting back for a second to the practical nature of this first episode. So I'm just picturing there is someone who has listened to this podcast while walking the dog, doing the dishes, folding laundry, you know, taking a walk. This is like where we're expecting, you know, because our listeners are trying to take something practical away. And a parent says to themselves, God, like Dr. Metzger, when. When she talks about these different things, there's so much expertise to it, so much fluidity. She's able to kind of move in and out of these spaces and have these discussions. I am not like that. I am not as gifted with words or with the concepts. I'm worried I'm going to muck it up. Maybe my kid and I could read something together, look at something together, look at some resources together. I could say, like, why don't you read this and then come back to me and we'll kind of talk about it. Just so I'm not doing all the educating. Where, where do you start there? What are some of the resources that you think are top of mind and we can include in show notes after this and everything?
- [35:40]
B
Yeah, resources. I will say, of course my resources are free, so I always like to tell people to check out my resources. So if you start with draishametzger.com resources, you will be able to see a ton that I have developed along with my research team. Those are things from how do you use a bag of M&MS. To talk to your kids about racism? So something simple as that to something more complicated as a handout that describes the seven forms of racism in ways that teens can respond. So there's a wide variety of free resources at the very bottom of my website, of the resource page on my website, you'll also see that I've just built a library of resources that I did not create, but I've curated them in that you can find HBO videos, you can find Amazon books, some of the ones that you can see here, like how to talk to your kids about race or why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria or smaller picture books. A is for activism. All of those things you can find at the bottom of my online resources, but different things like parenting, decolonize. A colleague of mine, Dr. Earl Turner, has therapy for black kids. So there are online resources. Again, there are these books, these podcasts that you are able to listen to. So I'm a guest on this episode. I'll do that Shameless cross promotion. I do have a podcast called Black and Empowered Podcast where if you're just a caregiver who wants to hear more about how to talk to your kids about race and racism, you can check out my podcast or my blog on Psychology Today that is by the same name. So Black and Empowered, those I would say, are kind of my go to resources. And if you're a clinician and for
- [37:34]
A
those really looking for more listening, you've got four seasons dating back to 2020 of Black and Empowered. There is a lot of good stuff that people can delve into. You know, at least they want to go to the podcast. Not to mention, yes, I applaud the fact that it is, you know, everything you just mentioned. And I spell your name in the intro to this podcast for folks just to make sure they can find your website and your resources as well. And of course they'll be in show notes as a clickable link. But so just to close us out here and give folks a tangible thing, what's the Eminem exercise you just mentioned?
- [38:06]
B
The Eminem exercise, honestly, is one of my favorites. I. This is a good idea to close on this. So it is. Yeah, I M and Ms. Used to be 50 cent. They're like A$50 now, but you can just get one of the small. You know, don't even have to get a shareable bag, but like the standard size bag of M and M right
- [38:24]
A
at the cash register at the pharmacy. They're right there. We just grab a bag. Okay.
- [38:28]
B
Anywhere from 2 to $3 now because of the economy.
- [38:31]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [38:33]
B
Buy that bag of M&M's and you get your kid to be so excited about this M and Ms. And you talk about the M&M's on the way home. And then when you get home and you get the M&M's out and you show your kids all the M and Ms. And you say, all right, I want you to play with these M&M's. Just observe the M and M's before you eat them. You're gonna get to eat these M and Ms. And then this is a
- [38:50]
A
tough delay of gratification task already. Okay.
- [38:52]
B
And then just ask them, okay, what do you see? Just observe the M&Ms. How did you play with the M&M's? Some kids are going to line them up. Some are gonna sort them by color. Some are gonna put the broken M and Ms. Off to the side. Right. You can just ask them about their observations. So they're all different colors? Yes. Some are different shapes and sizes. Some of these are broken. And then you ask a question. Are any of these M and Ms. Better than the others? They all taste the same. They're all the same. On the inside, it's chocolate. So you can draw the parallel between M and Ms. And people. Right. So sometimes people are treated unfairly because of the way that they look. Some people don't like yellow M&MS. That would be silly not to enjoy these yellow M and Ms. Just because they look a little different. Can you believe some people wouldn't even like that cracked M and M? That's if you, if you're thinking about ability status. Right. So you can draw all parallels that you can draw. Have the kiddos take a bite, have them eat them. Have them have conversations about the joy of M&M's, celebrating differences. What if this was a bag of all brown M&Ms. Or all red M&M's? It wouldn't be as exciting or is fun asking those questions, getting your kiddos to think about these different kind of societal factors that take place and draw it back to discrimination and racism. So I said discrimination because. Right. Like the ability status is a good example. But race and racism is kind of just looking at the colors of the M and Ms. On the outside. So I think that that's just a really good metaphor that caregivers can use. I talked through that really quickly for the sake of time. But again, if you go through my online resources, we have a handout that says talking to kids about M&Ms. With Rachel. And you can. It's like a four step process and we have prompts that caregivers can use to have. Right.
- [40:50]
A
It doesn't have to be the most beautiful clinical psychology discussion of ableism and all forms of racism and inclusion. You know, the exercise itself is simple and profound, even if they don't get to all the discussion points. You got to is what I was
- [41:03]
B
why do they eat Those M&Ms. And know that they're all the same on the inside and that none should be treated differently because of the color or the crack? Then you've had the conversation. If you have a curious kid, you can ask them questions, right? Like, would it be as interesting if they were all the same color? Or do you think it's fair to not eat the cracked M&M's? But literally, bottom line, same color, same on the inside, and you want the diversity of the colors for your kiddos.
- [41:33]
A
Yeah, man. All right, well, I again, as I said, I think that exercise is simple and profound. I think that you're already going to have a few people running to the website to look for more resources, activities, book recommendations. Thank you, Dr. Metzger, for being here with us today. And of course, recording the first of what we now are mapped out as a series of.
- [41:53]
B
Yeah, we got to talk about it. Right. In clinical care, in educational settings, in research. It. Right. Racism is pervasive across context. Dave, it is always a pleasure to talk to you. I love working with you. You are so hardworking, but so impactful. Thank you so much for the invitation to come have this conversation today.
- [42:15]
A
Well, that is very nice and very high praise. I look forward to our next connection. And thank you to all of you who've listened to thriving kids today.
- [42:22]
B
Bye bye.