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Timothy Keller Sermons Podcast by Gospel in Life
Work & Grace: The Spiritual Music of John Coltrane (Open Forum)
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- [00:00]
Tim Keller
You.
- [00:04]
John Patitucci
Welcome to Gospel and Life. If you have a job, it's likely that you think about it a lot. But how much have you thought about the biblical approach to your work? Today on Gospel and Life, Tim Keller shows us that the Bible has incredibly helpful and practical wisdom we can apply to the work we do. Wisdom you may find surprising, even life changing.
- [00:33]
Tim Keller
I want to talk about two quotes, two things that John Coltrane said about the relationship between God and his music. And I think each of them tells us something very significant. The first one tells us something about the relationship of music and art to God. And the second one talks about our relationship of our work in general to God. Another way to put it is this. Coltrane's first quote points to music as evangelism. And the second quote points to music as service. Now, when I use the word evangelism, I hope for a moment you can sort of shake, free your mind from any association of that word with politics, fundamentalism. And remember that evangelism means good news of hope. Here's the first quote John Coltrane says, overall, I think the main thing a musician would like to do is give a picture to the listener of the many wonderful things that he knows and senses in the universe. That's what I would like to do. I think that's one of the greatest things you can do in life. And we all try to do it in some way. The musician, the musicians, is through his music. Now, what Coltrane is saying is that music, not just the words to a song, but the music itself, is a form of evangelism. Music can tell the most hopeless heart, that there's hope, the most meaningless heart, that there's meaning. Music, no matter what you believe with your head, music tells you that your life is not a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Music has a way of coming to you and saying, in spite of how you feel, there is hope, there is meaning. Stephen Jay Gould, the late Harvard paleontologist, wrote this. He says, we are here and simply because one odd group of fish had a peculiar anatomy that just happened to be able to transform into legs for terrestrial creatures. We are here simply because comets struck the earth at a particular time and wiped out dinosaurs, giving mammals a chance. We yearn for a higher answer, but none exists. We are not here for any purpose at all. We have to construct any meaning to our lives, ourselves. Now, what he's simply saying is we yearn to believe that we're here for a purpose, that there is meaning in life, that there is Hope. But if there is no God, there's none. Okay, there isn't any. You can tell yourself that there is, but there really isn't. You can yearn for a higher answer, but there is none. But Ashley Kahn, a person with Stephen Jay Gould's exact same beliefs about the universe, wrote a book called A Love supreme, the story of John Coltrane's signature album. And in it he says this. As I listened to the album again and again, I felt impelled to address Coltrane's impassioned spirituality. Though I consider myself a dedicated agnostic and die hard rationalist, I am ready to admit that there is much that can seem to be the handiwork of some eternal force under spiritual direction. Very begrudgingly. And by the way, John told me he knows this guy knows Ashley Kahn. Very begrudgingly. Here's what Khan's saying. He says, I have the same view of the universe that Steve, Stephen Jay Gould has. As far as I know, I'm a hard nosed rationalist. We're not here for any purpose. We're not here. We weren't created. We're just here by accident. There is no meaning in life. There is no such thing as significance. But when he hears the music, his heart tells him something different. When he hears the music, he can't not know. He can't not know that there is a love that lasts forever, that there's truth, that there's meaning. The music evangelizes him. His head tells him these things don't exist. God doesn't exist. But his heart knows better. And the music reminds his heart of that. And the music confirms it. Now, music, and actually those of you who are artists in any form, art has the power to do that. And if you are an artist, whether you know it or not, you are using that power. But how much more fulfilling your life would be if you knew what you're doing. So first of all, I think the first thing that Coltrane shows us is that connection, spiritual connection between art and great music especially, and how great music evangelizes. Secondly, though, Coltrane actually points to music as service. And this actually applies not just to musicians and artists, but to us all. He says in the liner notes of A Love supreme, he says, during the year 1957, I experienced by the grace of God, a spiritual awakening which was to lead me to a richer, fuller, more productive life. At that time, in gratitude, I humbly asked to be given the means and privilege to make others happy through music, to inspire them to realize more and more of their capacities for Living meaningful lives, because there certainly is meaning to life. And I feel this has been granted to me through his grace. All praise to God. I actually have both of the themes in that quote. But I want to point out what he says about now, his work in service. Stephen Jay Gould was right when he said, if you think life is meaningless or no matter who you are, you've got to create a meaning for yourself. And one of the ways most of us, especially in a place like New York, one of the ways most of us find a way to make sure we know we're significant is through our work. It's through our work by doing it well and by moving ourselves ahead through our work. We say, now I know I have significance. In other words, we take our work and we make that as a. We make it all about us. You see, if the way in which you know you've got meaning in life, and the way in which you know you got significance and worth is your music, then the music, ironically, is about you. And the paradox is when the music's about you, it's not usually very good music. You know, there's a place where C.S. lewis, who was an artist, said, the artist who's trying desperately to be original will never be original. The artist who's trying desperately to make a good impression is not going to make a very good impression. If you use your work as a desperate search, a desperate effort to give yourself meaning in life, ironically, you won't do a very good job with your work. But Coltrane, something happened to change. Coltrane changed all that for him. That one night he played his piece of Love supreme, you know, 32 minute piece, outpouring of praise and thanks. And he did an. It was incredible that night. And he stepped down and he was heard to say, when he was done, nunc dimittis. Now, those are the first two words in the Latin. First two Latin words of something that Simeon said in Luke chapter two. When he'd seen the baby Jesus and he realized he'd seen the Messiah. Simeon says, now let thy servant depart in peace according to thy word, for mine eyes have seen thy salvation. And what Coltrane was actually saying is, I've done it. I've done everything I was put here on the earth to do. I'm ready to go if I have to. Now, where does he get that contentment? If you have experienced a supreme love so that you know he loves you regardless of how well you do out there on the stage, regardless of how well you. How well acclaimed you are in your work. If you know he loves you in an unmerited, free way, then you can actually. The work is no longer about you. It's about the work. The music's about the music. It's about the listeners. It's about God. It's just a way of serving people. And ironically, it becomes so much better. And this is true not just for musicians, but for all of us. And what Coltrane is saying is, if you experience a Love supreme, then instead of using the acclaim of others to fill up your own emptiness, you can minister to others out of your fullness. Nunc dimittis, what an amazing approach to work. You know Ephesians 2:10, and here's my translation. We are God's artwork, created by God to do good works, which God has prepared in advance for us to do. And when you know that you are his artwork, your art becomes a way of evangelism and service. So there's some perspectives by John Coltrane on the relationship between God spirituality and his music. And now. But I'm just a minister. I'm not a musician. But now we get to hear from professor at City College, but also a musician himself, John Patitucci.
- [08:55]
John Patitucci
Wow. Okay. Well, I guess I'd like to start first about having encountered Coltrane's music at a relatively early age. Actually, even before I began my real spiritual journey. I was about 17 when I became very committed to Christianity. I heard Trane's music, and I fell in love with it immediately. The urgency of it, even before Love supreme, was always interesting in that the power and the beauty that he played with was overwhelming. The great jazz drummer Billy Hart said it very well when he said, when Coltrane played, even if he was playing at his fever pitch, most intense he could be, it sounded like he was playing a ballad. There was an outpouring of love from his horn. All the people that I know that were close to him say that he was a very kind and deep man. He's one of the few jazz musicians I've ever heard, especially in the company that he kept. He played with Miles and Monk. Great visionaries, very intense men. But a different thing happens when you hear Train. Sometimes, when you hear the others, they're kings of the craft. They're amazing artists. But there's a little bit of the dig me in there, if you know what I mean. When you hear Miles play, he's definitely laying out, this is me. I'm Miles. Check this out. When Coltrane plays, it's amazing. There's just this outpouring of emotion and purity That I never really experienced before. And believe me, I'm a complete jazz fanatic. I have a lot of records. I spent my life absorbed in this music. I started very early in the music. I started hearing the music around 8 years old. I'm 46. I spent a lot of years on the road playing it. I've talked to a lot of people about it. The people that knew him said that going to the Vanguard was like going to church. When you walked in, there was something different. This just wasn't a gig at a club with a quartet. No, this was Coltrane's band. And I'm getting kind of emotional. I wish I had been there. The other thing about it was that the way he was with the people that he was with. I've spent some time with Wayne Shorter and many people that were around him. And he was very generous. In fact, it was him who recommended Wayne Shorter to Miles Davis. He said, there's a guy out there, he's better than me, you should hire him. Of course, Wayne was, as anybody would be, would be incredibly humbled and devastated by that comment. How would you like to have to follow Coltrane in a band with Miles? But that was the type of person he wanted. He actually lived the life. Someone who was trying to be a holy person. He was a great example of it. And you can hear it whenever he plays. His music is gripping, it's always deep. There's never extraneous things to it. Whether he's playing a million notes or just one note. He grabs you and shakes you at your core of your soul. And that, to me, because of the way I believe, is the hand of God. When I hear him play, it's not just a person playing, it's the voice of God screaming out that horn. I have to say that in listening to music, I've never heard the awesome power of the Creator so manifest in an individual, ever. I think you'd be hard pressed to find that kind of depth many places else. I don't know if it exists certainly in jazz. I don't know about that. I just know that listening to him, the impact he had on me. And also he was tireless in pursuing the development of his gift. He didn't squander his gift. He was given an amazing gift. But he worked harder than anybody. He was not an early prodigy that came out at age 18 and took the world by storm. He worked and worked and practiced and banged his head against the wall and kept going in a way that it wasn't like he was 18 years old and could do everything. No, I know guys that grew up with him in Philly. Ask Jimmy Heath. He remembers him when he was developing. If you ask, I've talked to saxophone players like Benny Golson, who grew up with Trane. He told me the funny story of when he and Coltrane used to play. His mom, Benny Golson's mom, used to have him over the house. And when they played jam sessions, she'd say, john, you have to play. There was a Johnny Hodges ballad that Duke Ellington played, and he would always make John. She would make John play that every time he came over. And the story goes that they were in a big band and they were told that the gig got canceled. And then they walked around the community and saw posters up for the gig that they were fired from but was still happening. And they went home to Benny Golson's mom, and they had their heads low and. And she said, what's wrong, boys? She said, well, that job that we thought we were playing, it's happening and we're not on it. She said, oh, don't worry. One day people are going to pay a lot of money to hear you play. Okay, Fast forward about 20 years later at the Monterey Jazz Festival or the Newport Festival. And of course, Benny Golson was playing with Art Blakey. His tunes were all over the place. Trane had his quartet, and they were backstage, and Train started laughing, and Benny said, what's so funny? He said, remember what your mom said when we got fired? So he was a beautiful person. You know, I've had the good fortune to play with his son Ravi. But even Ravi, unfortunately, was born at a time when he didn't really get to know his dad very well before John passed. So I could probably ramble all night. Maybe I should stop. But I just. I want to thank you for coming. This is a very emotional experience for all of us, Brian and I, on the road with Wayne a lot. We talk about Trane a lot, because Wayne used to practice with him. Train used to call him up and say, you coming over today? And they would sit at the piano, and one guy, Train, would go to the piano and take his elbows and press down as many notes as he could grab and say, how many can you get? And Wayne would try to run all the sounds. And then Wayne would do it for training and Train would do it. And then they had Alice's harp books out, and they'd be practicing harp music and trying to just get more harmony. They were tireless in their pursuit of excellence. There's A big lesson in that for all of us, spiritually, musically, artistically, life. So that's part of the reason why we're here today.
- [15:58]
Tim Keller
Talk about those things now, you know, you got a musician, you got a minister. I have no idea what in the world kind of questions you're going to ask, but we always do it and we think some of you will ask questions, but we would suggest nothing about auto repair or life on other planets. One of my open forums here, I remember some years ago, somebody asked me what I thought about life on other planets. And what I'm afraid is that John might really know about it. So I don't want you to ask anything about that. If you got a question, you know, it's big place here, you ought to go to one of those mics. Let's see. And we may not take a long time. We might take time. It depends on you. Aha. Go ahead.
- [16:37]
John Patitucci
Great performance tonight. Question I have is concerning Coltrane's later music. I guess 66, 67, when it's very noisy, free form, freestyle. Why don't you play of that music tonight? But actually I appreciate the music, but it's just a bit difficult to listen to. I wanted to gather your thoughts on. On that period of his. Of his music. You want my thoughts on the. On the late period with. With like interstellar space and stuff like that. Okay. He's asking about late Coltrane music.
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Tim Keller
It's always good to read the question.
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John Patitucci
Yeah, late Coltrane music that was pretty intense and sometimes not palatable for people that aren't used to listening to jazz, perhaps. You know, I think some of the music is very challenging to listen to because it's very dense, but there's a lot of beauty in it. Actually, I would recommend Interstellar Space because that's him and Rashid Ali, just saxophone and percussion. And there's some arrestingly beautiful music on that. And it's also a saxophonic testament, if you will. The stuff he's doing on that record is just unbelievable. And so it's appealing in a very visceral way. It's gorgeous music. It's very beautiful, but it's also extremely powerful. The stuff with Dolphy was. You know, that's a different kind of thing. The stuff with Pharaoh Sanders and the stuff that's very dense with a lot of people doing a lot of things. I maintain that through all that stuff you hear his vision. Whether whether the other guys were always as strong as he was at it is questionable sometimes. But, you know, when it. When it Comes to, obviously, his playing, and I believe Rashid Ali played beautifully on a lot of that stuff, too, you know. So I think with him, it was all. He was a seeker, you know, he was trying to find new things. So I think all of it has value. Some of the people that tried to imitate him that I didn't always have patience for because a lot of times they just didn't have the depth of musicianship or soul that he had. They were just sort of jumping on the bandwagon, thinking that if they played free and avant garde, they'd be like, train. Sure. But, yeah, I think there's a lot in there to check out, but I.
- [19:08]
Tim Keller
Would recommend interstellar space keep those kinds of questions coming. I mean, the questions that go to him. Go ahead. I don't know either which of you will want to answer this question. But you talked about him being a seeker, and I was curious because I've been reading a little bit more about him in the last week and trying to understand more about his spirituality, and I was wondering what you make of his. Can you continued searching beyond Christianity after.
- [19:36]
John Patitucci
You know, that period in 1957, and.
- [19:39]
Tim Keller
Particularly toward the latter period of his life. I mean, it seems like that was even connected to some of the music, perhaps, that he was just talking about.
- [19:48]
John Patitucci
You know, he kept looking into a lot of different things. I know he spent a lot of time with Eastern philosophies. I really don't. I don't know because I never had a chance to talk to him about it, but. And, boy, I would have loved to just spend five minutes with him, but I didn't get to. You know, you'd probably have to ask his family, really, about the depth of that and even that even his children probably couldn't answer you more. More Alice, if you could ask her. But, yeah, he did continue to study a lot of different things. And it's.
- [20:27]
Tim Keller
Let me. I could just add something. The insights that I think we can, that I glean and I try to bring out for you tonight had to do with his insights about the importance of God for spirit and spirituality, for music in general. I don't know. I don't think anybody could know where he would have ended up because he was continuing to look at other religions. You know, my hero, my ministry hero is C.S. lewis, who also, though, was a very ardent Christian, also believed probably there was more grace and insight in other religions than some Christians would like to believe. And the basic insights of John Coltrane, though, of the relationship between God and music and spirituality, remain Intact, regardless of that. But, yeah, absolutely, he was on an exploration. Unfortunately, I think he died before he figured out some of those things. So we got to go back and forth over here.
- [21:21]
John Patitucci
Thanks for the performance. It was fantastic. This is a question, actually, for both of you. And from what I know of John Coltrane's music in life, he was an incredibly intense man that in between sets, he would go and practice with other musicians, but just hang out. And in some ways, his music changed so much because he was constantly practicing and dedicated to music. And I guess I have a question regarding music and art as a form and how Christians relate to that. Particularly when you dedicate so much of your life and so much intensity to the music, to what degree does that. Can the music become something you worship in itself? And it sounds like, from what I've heard you say, Coltrane moved past that to actually using the music as a form of worshiping God or expression of worship to God. And I'm not sure exactly where that balance is. If you spend just every waking hour of your whole life practicing to be able to produce something, and this could go for any art form, then is that an idol in your life, or is that a remarkable dedication that shows your worship to God? That's a great question. He's saying, when does your dedication to your art, whether it's music, any kind of art, your practice of it, when does it kind of. When does the line blur and it become idols? An idol to you that you worship? This is a thing that we all struggle with. I believe if you're honest with yourself and you're passionate about music and your life, you have to deal with this issue. I can't speak for Trane. How he dealt with it, I don't know. I know that he was known to be a serious practicer. He did. He would play his solo, leave the mic, walk in the kitchen at the vanguard, and keep practicing. While McCoy played his solo, he was constantly practicing. Whenever he came to the front door at the house, I know people that visited him. He would always have the strap around the neck. Strap with a saxophone around his neck. So I don't. I don't know. I also know that he did. He was around his family a lot as well, too. I mean, it's difficult to say I wasn't there. I know for me, it's a big challenge. I have a wife and I have two daughters, and it's a big thing. You have to make time for your family. You have to make time in my case, because I'm A believer. I have to make time to spend with the Lord. I need to have quiet time. I need time for study. I'm a theology student. I love to study and read. I read a lot of books. I wish I could say that I knew the perfect balance and that I never went over that line, but I honestly can't say that I'd say that I struggle with it, too. Luckily, I have an amazing wife who is able to gracefully tug my coattail to it when I need somebody to do that and sort of help me to keep a broader view of my life and not get swallowed up by that fiddle over there or the electric bass or the piano or composing or whatever else. It's. It's. I can say this, though. You got to be careful with that, too. Some people say, well, you know, when you're doing music, you know, it can be an idol and it's going to get in the way of the Lord. Well, actually, some of the times I felt closest to the Lord when I was holding that thing in my hands and playing, feeling his presence, feeling that I was finally getting out of the way in my life for an hour or two or. I have to say, sometimes when I don't have it in my hands, I grasp for the wheel sometimes. So sometimes the converse can be true. Also, it can be a time when God uses music to say, you know what? Step aside, let me work. So it's both. I think you struggle with it, and then sometimes he extends his mercy and he helps you to grow even while you're. You're pursuing your music and art.
- [25:28]
Tim Keller
No, that's a beautiful. That's perfectly balanced remarks from John. Actually, the only thing I could say is that this isn't just a problem with music. Maybe I can. I have a great marriage. And I've been very, very intrigued by letters of John Newton, the guy who wrote Amazing Grace. He had a great marriage, and he said he always struggled with making his wife into an idol. If you have a lousy marriage, that's an affliction. That's a problem. That's a great spiritual challenge. If you have a great marriage, that's an affliction. That's a huge spiritual challenge because you're always going over into making what your wife says and your wife's love more important than God's love. So actually, this isn't a problem just with music. I just want you all to know. And Sren Kierkegaard said that the essence of sin is building your identity on anything but God. So the essence of Sin is not so much doing bad things, but it's making good things into ultimate things. And anybody who's really good at music or preaching or marriage is always just sort of falling off, you know, always sort of getting your feet wet into idolatry and having to come back. I think that's the way it is with just virtually everybody. But that is. That's the place where you have to live your life. That's the tension place that you have to live.
- [26:49]
John Patitucci
It's estimated that most of us spend half of our waking hours at work. How does the wisdom of the Bible apply to our careers? In other words, how can our work connect with God's work? And how can our vocations be more missional? In his book Every Good Endeavor, Tim Keller draws from decades of teaching on vocation and calling to show you how to find true joy in your work as you serve God and others. The book offers surprising insights into how a Christian perspective on work can serve as the foundation for a thriving career and a balanced personal life. Every Good Endeavor is our. Thank you for your gift. To help gospel and life share Christ's.
- [27:27]
Tim Keller
Love with more people around the world.
- [27:29]
John Patitucci
Just visit gospelandlife.com give. That's gospelinlife.com give. Now here's Dr. Keller with the remainder of today's teaching.
- [27:40]
Tim Keller
Okay, let's go back and forth. Over here on the right. You talked about how John Coltrane, how a lot of his music was like an overflow of his spirituality. And I was curious, like, as a Christian and as an artist, how do you deal with times when you're not feeling the presence of God or when you don't. Yeah. You're just not feeling it. And I guess with that, I guess as a Christian and as an artist, you need discipline. So how do you keep discipline from becoming like, legalism or just like, drudgery?
- [28:09]
John Patitucci
I'm sorry, that last part.
- [28:11]
Tim Keller
How do you keep, like, legalism, discipline from, like, becoming like a sort of legalism or a drudgery about. About life, with music and with practicing?
- [28:24]
John Patitucci
Okay. There's something that I always tell my students, and I think it's a real big truism. And first of all, you know, I spent a lot of my life, you know, traveling around with Wayne Shorter, Scoop, and Brian, the drummer you heard tonight, who's like a right arm, left. I mean, he's. We're really close. I can tell you what happens when I feel like I'm entering like a. If I'm, you know, we show up at a concert, we took Two flights, we took a car. We're fried. We get to the place. The only way to combat that thing of where it becomes drudgery or you're tired and you have. You're dry. Whether you're dry spiritually or whether your spiritual dryness becomes musical dryness, or whether you just feel uninspired, the way out of it is to get outside yourself. Quit looking all the way inner and just open your eyes and look around you. There are other people right there with you. And somebody is going to do something inspiring. Somebody's going to play something that makes you think differently. If you're just open to it. And all of a sudden you're off and running and where you were fried and you couldn't think of anything to play. Thirty seconds ago, somebody plays something and boom, you're off. If you're open to it. See, when we get all like, oh, no, I got to do this, or oh, what about that shift? Or what about this chords? And if we get wrapped up in that, it's just like a lead weight and just. We go sinking down. But if we look outside of ourselves, it's amazing what can happen. And that's a metaphor for your life too. Your spiritual life too. God is always that metaphor of looking up and receiving from him. Instead of trying to have your hands on the wheel and do it all yourself and generate it all yourself and your works and this and that. If you just do this and this, it's going to be great. So that's. It's getting outside of that kind of tunnel vision, that insular thing which makes you just sort of cave in on yourself.
- [30:32]
Tim Keller
Okay, over here. Hi. On the Directions of Music tour about five years ago, I saw you play with. I wanted to ask Brian this too, but I saw you play with Brecker and Hargrove and Herbie Hancock and stuff. And right before Michael Brecker played Naima, he gave like a two or three minute talk on his. When he got his first Coltrane album, his first Coltrane record. And how he described like, he always. I forget who was listening to at the time. He was like 13 or something. But he went into a lot of depth about how when he listened to it, it didn't make sense. But then it ended up sounding like. I know the words he used were like emotional and intelligent. And I was. I was hoping you were going to explain this earlier. You started to go into a little bit how. When you were 9 or 10. But what was your first experience with hearing Coltrane? And did it. Did it stick right away? Or was it like, what's this dude doing all these scales? Or like, how did it. How did it make sense to you? Because to a lot of people, it. Coltrane doesn't make sense when they first hear them. I'm a jazz pianist. The first time I heard Coltrane, I was like, okay, this is a lot of notes. I'll listen to Wynton Kelly or whatever, but, you know. But it grows on you, you know, I'm just wondering, like, what was your first experience with him? Like, were you exposed to him through another musician? Did you ever accidentally buy it thinking.
- [31:39]
John Patitucci
It was somebody else? I'm trying to remember what the first record was. And it might have been. Let's see, it might have been Giant Steps, which had Equinox on it. Also was an Atlantic record. I have to say that the emotion of it always grabbed me even before I understood harmonically and rhythmically what he was doing. He went right through me immediately. Same with Wayne. When I heard Wayne's first music, I was about 8. I heard children of the Night on the Mosaic Art Blakey record. I didn't understand what they were doing, but there was a searing quality of the saxophone. There was just this soulful cry that went boom, right inside. Trane was like that with me. The record with Giant Steps, even though that's a highly. That was again, one of his manifestos, harmonically. He laid this thing out that he'd been working on.
- [32:31]
Tim Keller
Just.
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John Patitucci
It's like Billy Hart said, whether he was playing one note or 30 million notes, it always sounds like he's playing a ballad. There's all this beauty and spiritual force coming through. So even before I could understand it. And Giant Steps is a good example. Equinox is on that record, which is slower also, and very blues. I could always hear the. You know, his grandfather was a preacher. And that cadence is always in his playing, too. That kind of vocal speech like thing. And the tenor saxophone is very close to the human voice. So that always grabbed me, even though I didn't know what they were doing. So that was. It kind of grabbed me young over here.
- [33:14]
Tim Keller
This question sort of touches on everything. That's a few questions that have been asked before about Coltrane's phenomenal commitment to practicing anecdotes about him playing a single major scale for 11 hours straight. Just wanted to. Curious as to how you think that informs his attitude on work versus faith, on the sheer ascetic discipline of his practice regimen versus his commitment to spirituality later on in life.
- [33:39]
John Patitucci
Wow. Did everybody Hear that? The question about how he pursued his art with practicing, practicing how that affected his art, whether his asceticism, you know, musical asceticism. What effect did that have? Was it a works mentality? By practicing like this? This is. You'll get good. You know, I have to say that when you redefine your instrument and you become a great virtuoso like Trane did, I think he needed that to express the depth of his spiritual feelings that he had. I joke with my students. I hate when students say, I play what I feel, you know, I don't need to learn all this stuff. I say, oh, yeah? What about when you have all those feelings and you're so frustrated because you can't. You can't get it out your hands. Classic example. Some people try to elevate naivete in music and sometimes even incompetence to, like, they worship that. Like, if you know too much, well, then you can't be good. You can't play with feeling if you know too much. Coltrane shatters that to bits. There's no one more soulful on the planet that ever walked the planet, and there's no one who knew that much on his instrument. So it kind of blows away the works thing. In other words, he had to have all those, that flexibility to say what he needed to say. And it never. To me, it never got out of proportion or was misused. It was never technique for technique's sake. It was technique in the service of a masterful, soulful expression of music that, you know, still, saxophone players are trying to figure out what he did. He's been gone a long time, 40 years. Ask Mike Brechker and all these guys who are the Paganinis of today, and they'll tell you that Trane is still their hero.
- [35:37]
Tim Keller
The only thing I could add, it's amazing how many residences there are with everything else besides music. But in the beginning, I think almost anybody in a career, in the very beginning, you are. It is a kind of works, righteousness. You're working hard because you want to be accepted. But you often see with people who get the acceptance they want, they get successful, and they still go on. And I think it's because they realize at a certain point now I've got a vision, I want to get it out. And I say, my concern is more rhetoric and narrative. And I'm always frustrated now because I know what I want to say, but I never feel like I quite get there to say it. In the early days of being a preacher, I Worked like crazy because I wanted people to accept me. Now I'm accepted. I just. I really want to say certain things that I can't do unless I work like crazy to do it. I think. I think John's absolutely right. There are some people that never. That need to prove yourself. Never goes away. And you can hear it in some musicians. It's always about me and I, we. Our little talk tonight said that somewhere Coltrane, because of his spiritual awakening, blew past that. And it wasn't about him anymore. It wasn't. Works righteous now. He had a vision and he had a mission. And he just wanted to do it as well as he could. And that's what we all should be after, so.
- [36:50]
John Patitucci
And in fact, Miles used to say, what? Why are you playing so long? Don't you ever take the horn out of your mouth? And Train was so beautiful. You know, it wasn't salty back or anything. He just, you know, I'm just trying to get to this thing and I. I'm. I gotta get there, you know, And I. And he was. He was very humble. He felt like, you know, I can't quite get it. It's taken me that long, you know, when I play one of my. So it takes me a while. I'm trying to find this thing. Meanwhile, yeah, the rest of us would love to be trying to find something like Train, you know, I wish I could try to find something like that, too. Because his supposed searching and scuffling was 80 million times better than the rest of us could even imagine or dream.
- [37:37]
Tim Keller
Good. Let's keep going back and forth over here. Hi.
- [37:41]
John Patitucci
I know that there's a lot of deep emotional and spiritual music today, but I feel if you could reflect on.
- [37:49]
Tim Keller
The change in our mainstream attitude toward music. I always feel like I'm looking back and capturing something greater than today. Interesting.
- [37:59]
John Patitucci
But I know it's there.
- [38:00]
Tim Keller
We heard it tonight. It was amazing. I just personally wish there was more of it. And maybe you have thoughts on your.
- [38:06]
John Patitucci
Growth up as a musician. Wow. So basically you're saying sometimes it just feels like there was a lot of deeper connection in the music back. You know, when we listen to old records and we hear this purity that attracts us because it has nothing to do with marketing and Wall street and lawyers negotiating contracts. Frankly. Yeah. I live in this world. We all do. And that's something that Brian and I talk a lot about. Sets of Wayne Shorter. We all talk about this a lot. We feel like we have a mission. We feel like we're swimming upstream a lot of times. But nonetheless, we feel compelled to continue. Sometimes it takes courage because the record companies, even with Wayne's group, frankly, they sometimes seem to value. Put not much value on what we're doing. They're trying to chase the newest flavor of the month. If they can get a pop singer and sell millions of records, hey, that's where their priority is. So you can't let it get you bitter. You have to continue on your mission, and you have to be disciplined. Because if you let it, it'll stop you. And for me, there's an added thing about. I feel like God has given me something important that I need to keep pursuing. Whether it's popular with the business folks or not, I really can't think about that. Yeah, I have to provide for my family, which I work hard to do. But when it comes to my art and the music that I write and I play and the records that I make for myself, I feel a responsibility to God, to people. I must do the utmost thing I can do the most. I can use whatever I have to make the most honest music that I can to reach out to people in an honest way. Instead of trying to be something that's the flavor of the month this year, which changes every month. Every month. That's why somebody like Wayne Shorter is so important. He never gave in. He never stopped. And that's why Trane loved him also.
- [40:28]
Tim Keller
Wow. Thanks.
- [40:31]
John Patitucci
Hi. In your earlier talk, you mentioned that one of the things that defines us is our work.
- [40:37]
Tim Keller
And certainly I feel like it's taking.
- [40:39]
John Patitucci
A lot of my time.
- [40:39]
Tim Keller
And maybe it's because I'm not really a musician. I feel that sometimes my work takes.
- [40:45]
John Patitucci
Me away from my spiritual side. So maybe you could give a guidance of sharing experience. How when times, let's say, you feel.
- [40:54]
Tim Keller
Not disconnected with yourself, how you come back to present? How do you come back to your spiritual side? Yes, I'll be brief. There's a sense in which there's a micro meaning and a macro meaning. The micro meaning, I think, your micro identity, that is, who are you? Micro identity is you look at your gifts, you look at what you're good at, and you do it. And there's that great place in the Chariots of Fire where Eric Liddell says, God made me fast, and when I run, I feel his pleasure. So if you're fast, you run. If you're an art artist, you do art and so forth. If you make great business deals, make great business deals. When you use your gifts that you've been given, you feel like you Fit in the universe. That's what that line in the movie means. And from a Christian point of view, we think your gifts and talents aren't accidents. They didn't happen just accidentally. It's what God wants you to be. That's your micro meaning. If you don't have the macro meaning. And the macro meaning is that you're a child of God and that you have a relationship with Him. And just. And when I use the word child, this is the Christian understanding of this, a child of God. I mean, I have children. And if one of my children does well, I'm very proud of them and that my heart goes out toward them. If one of my children does horribly and does everything wrong, I'm more engaged with them. In other words, being a father means I love my kids. And whether they're doing well or not doing well, whatever they do draws my heart out toward them. To be a child of God means I know that I'm in His grace. I've experienced his grace. He loves me unconditionally. Knowing that is your macro meaning. If you don't have the macro meaning, then your micro meaning becomes the macro meaning. And that's really what the Sickness unto Death by Kierkegaard is. Kiergaard says that when your work and your gifts become your whole meaning, then somehow you'll find. Just like Tolkien felt, because he could never really write the book he wants, just like Tim Keller feels he could never really preach the sermon he wants. John Patacci never can quite get out what he wants to get out. If that's the whole of your life, then you're always unhappy. You always feel like, I'm falling short, I'm not doing what I want to do. So you've got to put the. In a sense, you've got to put your gift and your mission and your art and your work in the. Like a diamond in a bigger setting. And it's got to be a setting of knowing I'm a child of God. Without that, then the work becomes the idol and it drives you into the ground. So I think there has to be a balance between the two things.
- [43:27]
John Patitucci
And that's what makes people bitter, too. I think when people are struggling and they can only see right in front of them and they keep reaching for that thing and they can't quite get it. If that's all there is, then it's pretty rough existence being an artist, unless you have that hope.
- [43:44]
Tim Keller
Yep. Now, even though I'm going back and forth, I think these folks have been waiting longer so go ahead. Hi.
- [43:51]
John Patitucci
I'm a mother of two jazz musicians, one who plays and the other who promotes. And I also minister, and I'm often up and going home on the train about 3 or 4 in the morning. And I see the passion in both of you, and I also find it in the musicians, including my sons with whom I minister, and they're great spirits. But what I'm asking both of you is, I heard one of them say to me, we don't come to you and you don't come to us in terms of reaching out as Christians, as believers. And I'm asking for ways, because what I'd love to do is, John, is bring Brian to you and say, say, Brian, I want you to know a musician who believes in Jesus Christ. Is that your son's name? Brian? Oh, okay.
- [44:49]
Tim Keller
And Andrew, too. Yeah.
- [44:52]
John Patitucci
Well, bring them and bring them on. Okay, I will. Yeah.
- [44:57]
Tim Keller
I've got tears in my eyes and.
- [44:59]
John Patitucci
I thank you all so much. It just means so much. And there's so many people out there who need hope and future and. And God has blessed me to do what I love doing and to reach out in that, and this just inspires me. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
- [45:23]
Tim Keller
Go ahead. Thanks. I have a question, but it doesn't have anything to do with music. It's, oh, no, wait a minute. I don't know everything about everything else but music. Say, I want to major in science and I want to be a teacher, and I believe in God, but part of that has to do with evolution. What if I don't believe in evolution but have to teach it? How do you deal with that? Fortunately, I can be real brief about this. Your belief of evolution does not matter to your acceptance of the orthodox teachings of Christianity. People who believe in the most orthodox, have the most orthodox faith, have different views on evolution. So you cannot. It's a red herring to think that a particular view of evolution fits in with, say, orthodox Christianity. If I don't have it, I can't be an orthodox Christian. It's not true. Now, I'm not going to go any further than that, but the point is that people have got all sorts of views on evolution across the spectrum. And therefore I always say to people, figure out what you, you know, if Jesus is the son of God, resurrect from the dead, that. Figure that out. That makes every difference. If that's the case, then you have to live like this. If it doesn't, then you don't have to live like this. You can live like this. That's what matters. Don't even worry about the evolution thing. Get to that later. And I have very strong Christian friends that have virtually every view possible about evolution. So don't let it distract you. Okay. Over here? Yes. I was just curious to hear some thoughts of yours about maybe some of John Coltrane's later work as a solo artist versus some of his earlier works. Like, for instance, everything after Interstellar Space versus everything before. Like, I was thinking that when I listened to Giant Steps or Interstellar Space or anything from around that period, I heard, you know, his new concepts and his advanced new styles of playing more fully developed than when I listened to some of his later work. And I always kind of wondered if that was maybe running parallel to what was going on in his spiritual life.
- [47:37]
John Patitucci
At the same time, this surgeon. I don't know how to describe that, because that's a very personal thing that he was doing. You know, I remember sometimes feeling like, well, you know, I have my favorites. I have many favorite periods of train and sometimes the absolute latest. You know, I just. Just when I thought that maybe, you know, I had heard some of the later stuff and I didn't like it as much as the earliest. Then I heard a track one time of him playing alto. It was very late, Coltrane, and it destroyed me. It was unbelievable. It was with Alice Coltrane and him. I don't know who. Maybe Rashid. I didn't even know what record it was. So I just think you have to dig around and you have to listen to it. You can't just listen to it once or twice and go, well, you know, I like Giant Steps better because there's a lot of stuff. You have to be patient. But, yeah, I can't speak for him because he was really on this amazing path and search that I can't say what he was thinking. And I really. Sometimes I have to go back, you know, I have a lot of Coltrane records, a ton. But, you know, I go through periods where I listen a lot, and then I move away from it for a while, and then I come back and the really late stuff is not what I often go to first when I come back to listen to it.
- [48:59]
Tim Keller
Do you mind if I follow? I was just wondering, though, do you hear, like, the same levels of organization and where he was going technically or.
- [49:10]
John Patitucci
I think whenever he played his horn throughout his entire life, there's always a genius level of organizational stuff happening. There's never a record you can point to where it's not. It's just overwhelming.
- [49:25]
Tim Keller
We've gone 30 minutes and some of you are voting that this is time should be about up, I think, because you've been waiting. I'll take one more question and that's. I'm afraid this is going to be it, everybody. Sorry, go ahead over here.
- [49:36]
John Patitucci
Okay. This is an interesting question you might not expect. Actually, when you guys were talking about.
- [49:43]
Tim Keller
Music, I didn't get it.
- [49:45]
John Patitucci
So my question is, is there hope for someone that don't actually understand jazz? Like, how about.
- [49:55]
Tim Keller
A three minute version.
- [49:57]
John Patitucci
Of Jazz for Dummies? Well, here it is. I've got one for you. People say, I don't understand jazz. Okay. I always come back with, do you understand Beethoven or Mozart? Can you comprehend their genius yet? You can listen to their music and go, wow. You don't feel the need to try to understand it, do you? You just listen to it and go, wow. That's what jazz is like. If you listen to Coltrane, you don't have to understand what he's doing, but you can just listen to the emotional part of it and you can either receive it and you don't have to receive it. I don't have emotions from it. You don't? Oh, okay.
- [50:32]
Tim Keller
It's like people cry when they hear.
- [50:35]
John Patitucci
Some things and I. I don't get it.
- [50:38]
Tim Keller
It's like some people don't get computers. I don't get jazz.
- [50:41]
John Patitucci
That's okay. That's really okay. I mean, I can't. I can't sit here and tell you that jazz is for every soul.
- [50:48]
Tim Keller
So you actually could listen to the music that he wrote and say, wow, he was really inspired by God. He was really excited at this point and that point.
- [50:56]
John Patitucci
Really? Totally, totally awesome.
- [51:00]
Tim Keller
It's. Well. But good for you.
- [51:03]
John Patitucci
You know what it is? Yeah. And it's okay if you don't. I mean, you know, for me, it was something that gripped me and it makes me cry when I hear him play.
- [51:11]
Tim Keller
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it's the same. By the way, my hero CS Lewis said that there's a thread, there's a secret thread that every individual has a kind of unique thread of things that move you. It's music, literature, a landscape, a particular person, a spot on the earth. That. And I was talking before about how Coltrane says there's also a great Leonard Bernstein quote that I always use where Bernstein said when he hears Beethoven, even though he's an atheist, he's basically, I have to believe in God now. Everybody's got a little thread of what those things are. And some of the Some people's thread don't go through jazz. Okay, but the point is, you've got.
- [51:59]
John Patitucci
Doesn't determine my salvation. So that's good. Otherwise I won't be in heaven with you.
- [52:04]
Tim Keller
You know, everybody's got a thread. Everybody's got a thread. And by the way, in my case, for example, I was a trumpet player as try as I, I couldn't do jazz, I just couldn't do it as a result, I just couldn't. Even though at one point I was pretty good, I just couldn't do it. And that's what in my case, it's sort of like. I look at these guys who can do it with a certain kind of awe because I tried. I have a very, I appreciate jazz quite a bit, but probably appreciate it a little differently because I'm a failed jazz musician and therefore I actually look, I have a certain awe that some of you don't have. The real point is everybody's got that thread. For some people, it goes right to the down the center of jazz. With some people, it's mainly jazz. Some people it's hardly at all. With my wife, it's pretty much hardly at all. But on the other hand, her thread goes right to downtown Ballet. And I say, all right, yeah, so anyway, but everybody's got a thread. And that's the thing, thing we've been talking about tonight. Listen, this guy is so well spoken and I use a lot of. You hear me a lot. But boy, this has been terrific to have John here tonight. So let's give him a hand for being here.
- [53:17]
John Patitucci
Thank you.
- [53:19]
Tim Keller
Thanks for coming.
- [53:26]
John Patitucci
Thanks for joining us here on the Gospel in Life podcast. We hope that today's teaching challenged and encouraged you. We invite you to help others discover this podcast by rating and reviewing it. And to find more great gospel centered content by Tim Keller, visit gospelandlife.com Today's talk was recorded in 2006. The sermons and talks you hear on the Gospel and Life podcast were recorded between 1989 and 2017 while Dr. Keller was senior pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian Church.
- [53:58]
Tim Keller
SA.