Podcast
To Catch a Thief: North Korea On Our Payroll
Hosted by Rubrik | Nicole Perlroth | Pod People · EN
American companies are being infiltrated—not by hackers breaking in, but by workers.
Thousands of North Korean operatives are applying to jobs across the U.S.—and getting them. They are embedding themselves at Fortune 500 companies. Government agencies. Critical infrastructure. Even the firms tasked with stopping this threat.
To Catch a Thief: North Korea On Our Payroll is a first-of-its-kind audio documentary exposing this global labor pipeline—one that is quietly funneling hundreds of millions of dollars a year back to the regime, and its nuclear weapons program.
Host Nicole Perlroth, bestselling author and former lead cybersecurity and digital espionage reporter for The New York Times, takes listeners inside this hidden network—from a rare, inside look at a North Korean IT worker on the job, to interviews with defectors who escaped it, to knocking on the doors of Americans hosting “laptop farms” on North Korea's behalf.
Along the way, the series reveals how this playbook is creating a hiring freeze for American workers, in a challenging job market. And how it has metastasized—adopted by cybercriminal groups and fraud networks around the world—blurring the line between nation-state espionage and organized crime.
To Catch a Thief is co-produced by Nicole Perlroth and Rubrik in partnership with Pod People.
To Catch a Thief was written and produced by Nicole Perlroth, along with Khrista Rypl, T. J. Raphael, Rebecca Chaisson and Sam Gebauer. Additional thanks to Allie Pinel, Fendall Fulton, Krissy Clark, Cai Lee, Eunice Park and Aimee Machado. Editing and Sound Design by Erica Huang. Art direction and design by Ben Long, Gareth Strange and Sarah Burley at the John & Jane Agency, and support from John Leestma.
19episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Ep. 6: The North Korea Model
1w ago00:59:12Summary readyNorth Korea has now successfully planted agents in companies over the world. And while businesses are getting better at flagging it, North Koreans still have to meet quota. Cybersecurity experts fear North Koreans will move to monetize their access, and data, beyond the paycheck. That data North Korean IT workers took, the source code they stole — even built in some cases — will come back to haunt these organizations. And it’s not just North Korea anymore. The remote IT worker scheme is now a playbook of its own: Cybercriminals and other nation states have adopted it, some with a reputation for far more destructive attacks.In this final episode, host and former New York Times cybersecurity reporter Nicole Perlroth also confronts how AI is leveling the playing field, and what it means that the one capability that has long eluded North Korea’s hackers — autonomous exploitation — is now within reach.To Catch a Thief is co-produced by Nicole Perlroth and Rubrik in partnership with Pod People.To Catch a Thief was written and produced by Nicole Perlroth, along with Khrista Rypl, T. J. Raphael, Rebecca Chaisson and Sam Gebauer. Additional thanks to Allie Pinel, Fendall Fulton, Krissy Clark, Cai Lee, Eunice Park and Aimee Machado. Editing and Sound Design by Erica Huang. Art direction and design by Ben Long, Gareth Strange and Sarah Burley at the John & Jane Agency, and support from John Leestma.
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Ep. 5: The Heists
2w ago01:00:44Summary readyIn the decade after Sony, North Korea learned something fundamental: Destructive cyberattacks make headlines. Financial cyberattacks make money. One year after Sony, North Korea pulled off one of the most audacious bank heists in history and reshaped cybercrime in the process. Today, the regime has expanded those same tactics into billion dollar cryptocurrency heists and sprawling money laundering schemes designed to evade sanctions and bankroll the state – and its nuclear weapons program.Host and former New York Times cybersecurity reporter Nicole Perlroth traces how North Korea evolved from its record-setting hack of the Bank of Bangladesh, to the cryptocurrency hacks that now generate half the regime’s foreign currency income, and in the process became one of the most innovative cybercriminal enterprises on earth.To Catch a Thief is co-produced by Nicole Perlroth and Rubrik in partnership with Pod People.To Catch a Thief was written and produced by Nicole Perlroth, along with Khrista Rypl, T. J. Raphael, Rebecca Chaisson and Sam Gebauer. Additional thanks to Allie Pinel, Fendall Fulton, Krissy Clark, Cai Lee, Eunice Park and Aimee Machado. Editing and Sound Design by Erica Huang. Art direction and design by Ben Long, Gareth Strange and Sarah Burley at the John & Jane Agency, and support from John Leestma.
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Ep. 4: The Sony Playbook
3w ago00:45:13Summary readyIt’s been nearly 12 years since North Korea launched its crippling attack on Sony Pictures Entertainment over a Seth Rogen film. Most Americans remember the celebrity leaks, the embarrassing emails, the Hollywood spectacle of it all. What they missed was the playbook: Why simply hack an organization when you can bleed reputations dry? Turn stolen data into psychological warfare. It was a model that would soon echo everywhere from Russian intelligence operations to modern ransomware gangs. But Sony was only the beginning. Host and former The New York Times cybersecurity reporter Nicole Perlroth traces how North Korea evolved from an isolated adversary into one of the most innovative and dangerous cybercriminal enterprises on earth. To Catch a Thief is co-produced by Nicole Perlroth and Rubrik in partnership with Pod People. To Catch a Thief was written and produced by Nicole Perlroth, along with Khrista Rypl, T. J. Raphael, Rebecca Chaisson and Sam Gebauer. Additional thanks to Allie Pinel, Fendall Fulton, Cai Lee, Eunice Park and Aimee Machado. Editing and Sound Design by Erica Huang. Art direction and design by Ben Long, Gareth Strange and Sarah Burley at the John & Jane Agency, and support from John Leestma.
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Ep. 3: The Americans
Jun 2300:53:48Summary readyAll North Korean IT worker schemes hinge on one thing: a willing participant in America. We found one, and knocked on her door. Experts have dubbed some of these Americans “laptop farmers.” The North Koreans call them “facilitators” – people willing to host multiple laptops in their home and happy to not ask too many questions. But identifying these people can be hard: unless you have access to a private Discord channel where North Korean IT workers talk freely among themselves. In Episode 3, host and former lead cybersecurity and digital espionage reporter for The New York Times, Nicole Perlroth, goes to Ohio to try to understand how and why anyone would help a hostile, authoritarian regime, launder their true whereabouts, and fuel their nuclear weapons program. To Catch a Thief is co-produced by Nicole Perlroth and Rubrik in partnership with Pod People. To Catch a Thief was written and produced by Nicole Perlroth, along with Khrista Rypl, T. J. Raphael, Rebecca Chaisson and Sam Gebauer. Additional thanks to Allie Pinel, Fendall Fulton, Krissy Clark, Cai Lee, Eunice Park and Aimee Machado. Editing and Sound Design by Erica Huang. Art direction and design by Ben Long, Gareth Strange and Sarah Burley at the John & Jane Agency, and support from John Leestma.
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Ep. 2: The Cell
Jun 1600:56:37Summary readyInfiltrating the infiltrators. For the first time ever, host and former lead cybersecurity and digital espionage reporter for The New York Times Nicole Perlroth partners with a team of private investigators as they infiltrate a North Korean worker cell. She uncovers what happens after a security firm hires a man calling himself “Joseph.” By turning the tables on one of the world’s most elusive regimes, investigators gain rare, unprecedented access to their hidden Discord ecosystem: leaderboards tracking job applications, interview evasion tactics, and the disturbing levels of access North Korean workers are getting once inside – including, in one case, at an American nuclear utility. They also get a bizarre window into the human culture inside these cells – from their obsession with Minions to their pool parties and steak dinners outside North Korea. What emerges is not just a portrait of a sanctions-evasion operation, but a rare glimpse into how North Korea’s remote worker armies think, collaborate, and survive from behind the screen. To Catch a Thief is co-produced by Nicole Perlroth and Rubrik in partnership with Pod People. To Catch a Thief was written and produced by Nicole Perlroth, along with Khrista Rypl, T. J. Raphael, Rebecca Chaisson and Sam Gebauer. Additional thanks to Allie Pinel, Fendall Fulton, Krissy Clark, Cai Lee, Eunice Park and Aimee Machado. Editing and Sound Design by Erica Huang. Art direction and design by Ben Long, Gareth Strange and Sarah Burley at the John & Jane Agency, and support from John Leestma.
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Strange Things Are Happening
Jun 900:54:11Summary readyA new breed of worker is quietly clocking in across the United States. They’re writing code. Managing your passwords. Training the next generation of AI models. They’re gaining trust. And access. On paper, they’re the dream hire. Skilled. Low maintenance. Always remote and often affordable. And by most accounts, they’re doing the work. But strange things are happening. In a new season of To Catch a Thief, host and former lead cybersecurity and digital espionage reporter for The New York Times, Nicole Perlroth, investigates how North Korean agents are infiltrating the global workforce. How did a nuclear-armed regime worm its way onto the payroll of international companies – and why is it so difficult to get them off? To Catch a Thief is co-produced by Nicole Perlroth and Rubrik in partnership with Pod People. To Catch a Thief was written and produced by Nicole Perlroth, along with Khrista Rypl, TJ Raphaël, Rebecca Chaisson and Sam Gebauer. Additional thanks to Allie Pinel, Fendall Fulton, Krissy Clark, Cai Lee, Eunice Park and Aimee Machado. Editing and Sound Design by Erica Huang. Art direction and design by Ben Long, Gareth Strange and Sarah Burley at the John & Jane Agency, and support from John Leestma.
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Coming soon - An “inside-out” look at North Korea’s covert IT workforce
Jun 400:05:11Summary readyTo Catch a Thief: North Korea On Our Payroll is a gripping investigative podcast exposing how thousands of North Korean operatives are quietly getting hired inside American companies, funneling millions back to the regime and its nuclear weapons program. Hosted by bestselling author and former New York Times cybersecurity reporter Nicole Perlroth, the series features rare access to insiders and the Americans unknowingly helping power this global operation. To Catch a Thief is co-produced by Nicole Perlroth and Rubrik in partnership with Pod People. To Catch a Thief was written and produced by Nicole Perlroth, along with Khrista Rypl, Rebecca Chaisson, TJ Raphaël, Krissy Clark and Sam Gebauer. Additional thanks to Allie Pinel, Fendall Fulton, Eunice Park, Cai Lee, and Aimee Machado. Editing and Sound Design by Erica Huang. Graphics and design by the John & Jane Agency.
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OUT OF BAND | The Breaking Point: Inside Mythos' Zero-Day Machine with Anthropic's Nicholas Carlini
Apr 3001:16:26Summary readyNicole Perlroth sits down with Nicholas Carlini for an Out of Band conversation on the imminent zero-day surge. Carlini explains what Mythos can already do: find and exploit flaws in some of the world’s most hardened, widely deployed software—with minimal human input. He details what Mythos has already hacked, which now includes most of the operating systems in use. Together, they unpack what happens when these elite capabilities are no longer confined to intelligence agencies and freelance hackers—when AI collapses the barrier to entry and begins to overwhelm bug bounty programs. Perlroth presses Carlini on Anthropic’s decision to hold Mythos back, and reports that unauthorized users may have already accessed it. She also asks the uncomfortable question: will researchers like him, that get advance access to these models, become prime targets for nation-state hackers? Finally, they confront the bigger question: whether defenders have any credible path to regain the advantage in a world where, with enough compute, almost anything can be hacked.
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Ep 9: The New Frontline
May 29, 202501:41:14Summary readyColonial Pipeline was a warning shot. Now, Chinese hackers are inside the digital guts of hundreds of Colonial equivalents across the U.S.—power, water, transportation, and more. The question isn’t if they’re in. It’s why. And what happens next. Is this digital coercion? A warning to stay out of Taiwan? Is an invasion imminent—and are we ready for the cyber fallout that could come with it? In the final episode of this series, host and former New York Times cybersecurity reporter, Nicole Perlroth, investigates the nightmare scenarios U.S. officials are gaming out behind closed doors. The battlefield is already shifting—tilting toward Beijing. And while China prepares, America’s attack surface only grows. This isn’t just a problem for Washington. The new front line runs through all of us.
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Ep 8: Living Off The Land
May 5, 202500:34:46Summary readyCyber experts start getting called into electric, water, pipeline, railway, and transportation hubs around the country. Hackers have found a clever way to embed in these systems, using a small, unsuspecting device in everyday Americans’ homes. And once these hackers get in, they’re not dropping the usual malware, or sucking much of any data out. Unlike their predecessors, these hackers are very careful to cover their tracks. It appears they’re just lying in wait. Sleeper cells waiting for marching orders. So what’s the trigger? And what happens if they pull it?
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