Coming soon - An “inside-out” look at North Korea’s covert IT workforce

Summary

Podcast Summary
To Catch a Thief: China’s Rise to Cyber Supremacy
Episode: Coming Soon – An “Inside-Out” Look at North Korea’s Covert IT Workforce
Host: Nicole Perlroth | Produced by Rubrik & Pod People
Release Date: June 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this revealing pre-release segment, Nicole Perlroth turns the focus from China to North Korea, exploring how the DPRK has quietly embedded covert IT operatives into the workforce of American companies—including Fortune 500s, government agencies, and critical infrastructure providers. The episode unpacks how these disguised North Korean workers are not only blending seamlessly into US businesses but transforming the nature of cyber risk by shifting from traditional hacking to deep insider threat.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Hidden Workforce Among Us

• North Korean IT operatives present themselves as highly appealing job candidates—skilled, remote, affordable, and seemingly the "perfect hire."
• They've infiltrated diverse sectors including entertainment, agriculture technology, government agencies, defense contractors, and even a nuclear utility.
  • Quote [00:23]:
    "They're taking jobs at Fortune 500s in entertainment, ag tech. We've even found them inside US government agencies, defense contractors. One even popped up at a nuclear utility." – Host A

2. Red Flags and Uncanny Behavior

• Employers noticed strange behaviors: reluctance to appear on camera, awkward online interviews, and suspiciously delayed responses often aided by chatbots.
  • Quote [00:40]:
    "The person not wanting to be on camera, that person doesn't quite look right. There's a pause after each question. They're using some sort of chatbot to answer questions." – Host A
• Sometimes, high-performing employees are revealed to be carefully crafted personas—fronts for espionage activity.
  • Quote [01:01]:
    "You really were hiring an engineer and you thought you were hiring for one thing, and you just happened to be hiring them to do something else on the side like steal your stuff." – Guest B

3. Misconceptions About North Korea

• Americans often underestimate North Korea, relying on caricatures and dismissing their cyber operations as unsophisticated.
  • Quote [01:27]: "We like our enemies simple. A hermit kingdom with questionable haircuts. But caricature has a cost. Never underestimate North Korea." – Host A
  • Quote [01:51]: "We've underestimated them at every turn." – Guest B

4. From Revenge to Revenue: The Evolution of North Korea’s Cyber Tactics

• Initially, attacks like the Sony hack in 2014 were driven by revenge, but operations soon shifted to theft and revenue generation.
  • Quote [02:24]: "Sony was about revenge. What followed was about revenue." – Host A
• North Korea pioneered nation-state bank robbery, most notably hacking the Bangladesh Bank and, later, large-scale cryptocurrency theft.
  • Quote [02:29]: "We had never up until this moment seen a nation state steal cold hard cash from another country... These are the largest bank robberies in human history." – Guest B

5. The Scale of the Operation

• The podcast estimates North Korea’s cryptocurrency thefts at $5-$6 billion, if not more.
  • Quote [03:32]: "Our conservative lower bound estimate is around 5 billion. And upper ground is around 6, maybe even more than that." – Guest B

6. Mafia Tactics with National Goals

• North Korea’s cyber operators are likened to a mafia organization—focused on survival through wealth accumulation and power.
  • Quote [03:49]: "Think of them as a very rich family that is half mafia don, half Joseph Stalin. And that's their goal, survival and money." – Guest B
• The IT worker strategy allows North Korea to plant countless “insiders” within organizations worldwide—a silent, strategic placement for future operations.

7. Unwitting American Involvement

• The regime’s most ingenious twist: tricking American companies—and citizens—into aiding their cyber efforts, willingly or not.
  • Quote [04:45]: "To pull this off at scale requires pawns. And that, that may be their most clever move of all. Convincing Americans, witting or not, to help them set the board." – Host A

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• First Suspicions in Hiring:
  "I think one of the North Koreans has interviewed for a job with us. Do you think there are big security risks with AI?" – Guest B [01:21]

• Pressure on North Korean Hackers:
  "The biggest pressure was meeting the required payment quota to superiors. If we fail to meet quotas, even sleep and rest could be restricted." – Guest B [03:21]

• Worldwide Chess Game:
  "Really what we have now is a worldwide chess game. And they've put all their pieces in place. Now if push comes to shove, you have thousands and thousands of organizations at your disposal that you can start blowing up from the inside." – Guest B [04:21]

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• [00:01–00:42] – Introduction to the covert IT workforce and the anatomy of their deception
• [01:01–01:27] – Critical incident: recognizing a North Korean candidate and discussing AI’s role in hiring fraud
• [01:46–02:24] – Origins of the North Korean cyber threat and the Sony hack
• [02:29–03:25] – The leap to bank and crypto heists; unprecedented scale of state-sponsored theft
• [03:32–03:41] – Quantifying North Korea's stolen cryptocurrency
• [03:49–04:45] – Analysis of their motives and global chessboard strategy
• [04:45–05:04] – Closing reflection on the role of unwitting Americans in enabling these operations

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Conclusion

This episode unveils the astonishing scale and sophistication of North Korea's covert cyber workforce operations—and their chilling implications for American businesses and security. By blending into the tech labor force, these agents transform every digital hiring decision into a potential national security concern. As Nicole Perlroth notes, underestimating the adversary no longer seems merely naïve, but dangerously shortsighted.

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For a deeper look, tune in to the full episode when it’s released.

Transcript

[A]

A new breed of workers quietly clocking in across the United States. On paper, they're the dream hire. Skilled, low maintenance, always remote, and often affordable.

[B]

There were some of their best workers. It's like the perfect candidate. And we have to tell them, yeah, I know they are. They wrote it that way. It's all fake.

[A]

They're taking jobs at Fortune 500s in entertainment, ag tech. We've even found them inside US government agencies, defense contractors. One even popped up at a nuclear utility. But strange things are happening.

[B]

The person not wanting to be on

[A]

camera, that person doesn't quite look right. There's a pause after each question. They're using some sort of chatbot to answer questions. Employers are waking up to a deeply unsettling realization. Their employee is not who they claim to be.

[B]

And they were actually good engineers. You really were hiring an engineer and you thought you were hiring for one thing, and you just happened to be hiring them to do something else on the side like steal your stuff. We decided at the end of that interview, we all got together and said, I think one of the North Koreans has interviewed for a job with us. Do you think There are big security risks with AI So

[A]

we like our enemies simple. A hermit kingdom with questionable haircuts. But caricature has a cost. Never underestimate North Korea. Once they've decided to do something, they will figure out a way to do it. And the adversary we joke about, it's not actually the one we're up against inside government.

[B]

We started looking at the North Korean cyber program as the imagineers of cyber.

[A]

We've underestimated them at every turn.

[B]

And so for years, we war gamed in this space. What will it look like if a rogue nuclear armed nation decides to attack the United States through cyber beans? We all got it wrong, right? And no one anticipated that the first time that that would happen would be over a movie about pot smoking journalists with Seth Rogen in it. The FBI announced today that and we can confirm that North Korea engaged in this attack.

[A]

Sony was about revenge. What followed was about revenue.

[B]

It was like in a movie where you have a bank vault heist, except for there's no mask, there's no hacking into the camera, there's no getaway cars, there's just guys at keyboards, you know, and it's just amazing for a nation state to do this. We had never up until this moment seen a nation state steal cold hard cash from another country. Here we had a nation state attacking the country of Bangladesh and just stealing their money. We personally kept about 15 to 25% depending on how much we earned. We can steal money now at the speed of the Internet. These are the largest bank robberies in human history. A bank robbery of a million dollars in cash is still headline news. Crypto robbery of a million dollars worth of some token that you've never heard of. That's a Tuesday. The biggest pressure was meeting the required payment quota to superiors. If we fail to meet quotas, even sleep and rest could be restricted.

[A]

What's the current ballpark figure for how much the DPRK has stolen in cryptocurrency?

[B]

Kind of. Our conservative lower bound estimate is around 5 billion. And upper ground is around 6, maybe even more than that.

[A]

These are cyber operators like none we've ever seen, with goals more suited to the Corleone's than a nation state.

[B]

So just think of them as a very rich family that is half mafia don, half Joseph Stalin. And that's their goal, survival and money. You've seen North Korea in some ways become the world's largest bank robber. This is a criminal cyber startup and these guys are crushing it. And now I remember telling people IT workers in a room and nobody knew what the heck I was talking about. When I talk about IT now, everybody's already had an experience with it. They are going to turn that insider access into an insider threat position so an employee can become a foothold to follow on operations. These IT workers are absolutely everywhere. Really what we have now is a worldwide chess game. And they've put all their pieces in place. Now if push comes to shove, you have thousands and thousands of organizations at your disposal that you can start blowing up from the inside.

[A]

But to pull this off at scale requires pawns. And that, that may be their most clever move of all. Convincing Americans, witting or not, to help them set the board.

[B]

Hello.