B (2:49)

So glad to be here.

A (2:51)

Cool.

B (2:51)

Ready?

A (2:52)

All right, well, hey, before we jump in, let's just kind of set the stage. So if you would tell us. Tell us about, you know, what do you do? Tell us about your wife, Katie. Tell us about your kids, how old they are.

B (3:07)

Yeah.

A (3:08)

You know, maybe. Maybe, like, what phase of life you're in. If you can put a phase, you know, put, Put a description to it, and then we'll kind of go from there.

B (3:17)

Yeah, man. So I'm. I'm David, obviously. My wife is Katie. Katie and I have been married 16 years, which is. I mean, that flew by. Cambry is 12, Lucas is 10, and Mason is 8. So 12, 10, 8. The phase of life we're in right now, man, I, I. I'm incredibly grateful that I'm not changing diapers or tying their shoes or wiping their butts. Right. So we're in this cool phase where we can have real relationships with our kids, but they're. They're still dependent, but they're independent. Yeah. That makes any sense. So that's fun. Challenging, but. But fun.

A (3:59)

Yeah. Yeah. We were joking about this on the very first episode that when you think about kind of the arc of parenthood, there's a time where they are not dependent or independent. It's the in between. Right. Yeah. And it's kind of the part where you can leave them alone. And you know that there's a high likelihood of survival.

B (4:24)

Yeah.

A (4:25)

But there's also a high likelihood of a house fire.

B (4:29)

True.

A (4:29)

Or a broken arm.

B (4:30)

Yeah.

A (4:31)

You know.

B (4:32)

Yeah. I've got boys, man. That would happen pretty quick.

A (4:35)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well.

B (4:38)

But yeah. Yeah. You asked about our business, and so do want to dive into that. We. We're home builders in Tyler, Texas. I get the privilege of building homes with a team. You know, Jimmy's my business partner, but, man, it takes a team. It really does. You know, we. We started off, Jimmy and I did building and, and drawing floor plans and selling our own real estate and all that st.

A (5:01)

But.

B (5:01)

But ultimately I say I'm a home builder, but. But we have a team of people that are really putting this thing together, so that's a blast. And I love what I do every day.

A (5:09)

That's awesome. You know, I'm gonna ask Jimmy the same thing when he comes on, because you both had jobs before.

B (5:20)

Sure.

A (5:20)

So one of the things if, if you would is just kind of walk us through your journey to starting a business. But I also know that you guys both had jobs while you were starting the business before you decided to jump in full time. So what did that run up look like?

B (5:38)

You got to go all the way back to high school or maybe even middle school. Like, I love to do things with my hands. You know, the Lord made me a tinkerer. You know, I was always watching someone else build something or tear something apart. And I'm like, I'm going to do that.

A (5:52)

Yeah.

B (5:53)

Um, and so in high school, I had a buddy, and his dad was a framer, but he was a builder, so used to, at least old school, if you built a home, you did a lot of the things yourself. You don't just sub it all out. You would. You would frame the house. You would trim the house. If you're in the county, you'd. You know, you'd run your own electrical, you know, all that stuff. And so I would watch that guy, and I would. I would beg him for a job.

A (6:15)

Yeah.

B (6:16)

In high school. And he kept telling me, no, no, no. And shortly after high school, I called him up again. I was like, man, I want to frame a home. And he was like, how about you go do drywall with my. With my tape, bed and texture guy? And you can do that for a little while. And so I was like, okay, I'll try it out. You know, we'll see what happens. Well, I did that for four months. I think it was a test, you know, and drywall is awful, by the way. It is. Well, at least the tape, bend, texture part of it. It is. It's an art. And I don't have that skill. I do not. But about four months later, he called me up, and he was like, hey, man, you ready to frame? And I'm like, yes. And he goes, okay, do you have a hammer? And I was like, do I have a hammer? Yes. You know, that's the answer. Yes. Okay. Meet me, you know, on such and such job site in the morning. And so I'm scrambling around, and I'm looking, you know, for a hammer, and I find in my mom's kitchen drawer a little hammer, you know, no way. And I was like, this. Is this all I got? And so I bring my mom's kitchen hammer to the job site. And he looks at me. You know, his name was Glenn Smith. Glenn's a great guy. And he looks at me, and he was like, that's your hammer? And I was like, yeah. He goes, not anymore. And so he hands me his hammer. You know, praise the Lord for other men in my life that I didn't have, but, you know, in a father, but. But he handed me a hammer, and I started framing and I framed all through college. So 030405. The beginning of 06. I was a framer, and I learned a lot, worked hard. I still miss it. You know, there's days where you didn't make a lot of money, but you worked really, really hard. And. And you could turn around at the end of the day and feel tired, but you can see, you know, the fruit of your labor and go, man, that was awesome. Yeah. Um, don't always see that today as much as I did then, but. But that guy poured into me. I started framing, and then I knew at that point it was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna build homes, just not with my hands forever.

A (8:22)

Yeah.

B (8:23)

So got a business degree from Easy Tyler and then applied to every production home builder in the state of Texas. Pulte, Syntex, Grand Toll Brothers, you name it. And. And I really wanted to stay here. Tyler was home, and I got a call from Perry Homes out of Houston. And then the same week, I got a phone call from Perry Hall Homes, now Perry Hall. You know, I had sent in text or not text messages, but emails. I had knocked on the door. I had called, you know, a hundred times. I wanted that job. And so they finally offered me the job as a warranty manager. I went to work there as a warranty manager. I learned all the things you shouldn't do as a builder. Right. If you're going to do it right. And then. And then eventually got the opportunity to build three homes as a building superintendent. Start to finish, start to finish. And they handed. This is what they did. They said, hey, here's a set of plans. Go get them.

A (9:23)

No way.

B (9:24)

And I was like, man, I know how to frame. Like, I don't. I don't know. I don't even know where to begin, but. But figured it out. And sometimes that's the best way to learn, you know, You. You. You just have to figure it out. Sometimes you look around, there's nobody standing there but you. So you're going, here we go. Yeah, I did that until about middle of 09. And. And the housing market at 09 was awful. And so we lost my job. Got a job as a building. Not as a building, as a. As a project manager in a commercial floor covering company. But on the side, my heart was still going, man, I want to build. I want to build. And I would talk to Katie about it every night. I want to build. I want to build. And she would go, well, go do it. Go do it. And I was like, I don't. I don't have any Money. You know, Katie, when we got married, we were in so much debt.

A (10:11)

Yeah.

B (10:13)

We were looking at, you know, all the income and all the bills were going. This isn't working. And so I just. Not, like I could just go out and start building. And plus, even if I did build a home, like, nobody's buying in 090 10. It's just not working. And so, um, one day she came and she was like, hey, listen, you keep talking about building. Like, I need you to either do something about it or stop talking about it.

A (10:36)

Dang, dude. Yeah.

B (10:38)

And you're going, all right, I don't want to be that guy. Nobody wants to be that guy. That's right. You know, so. So I. We did something called Driving for Dollars. So I drove around the medical district here, and I was like, I'm gonna build a duplex. I'm gonna rent it. I'm gonna build it. It's gonna be great. I didn't know anything about renting. Right. But I built that duplex. And along the way, I met Jimmy, my business partner, and he. He was actually leasing an older home in the. In the neighborhood to some friends of ours in church, or our friends were going to see if they could potentially rent it. And I met Jimmy and we kind of hit it off. Invited him to church a few times. And then ultimately, you know, I told. I. I wound up teaching him everything I knew about the building business. And he taught me everything he knew about leasing homes because he knew, he knew that business very well. We courted each other for a long time, and we eventually, you know, started a legit construction company, a business. And that's. Golly, that was in 2012, so 14 years ago.

A (11:41)

Now, wait a second. Was that when cider was built?

B (11:45)

Cider didn't officially start until 2017. Okay.

A (11:48)

Okay. Yeah.

B (11:49)

But we were building parallel, right? Hands on, side by side.

A (11:53)

That's right.

B (11:54)

While we were employed, I was. I had a full time job and he was. He was kind of managing the field work.

A (12:00)

Yeah.

B (12:01)

While I was managing the schedule and the books. So.

A (12:05)

Yeah. Because you didn't stop working. I remember the tile. It was something tile.

B (12:10)

Some wind tile.

A (12:11)

Yeah, wind tile. I remember you were working at wind tile for those first few years.

B (12:15)

Yeah.

A (12:16)

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So then you guys started cider and, you know, the nature. The nature of building homes is. You know, I was actually kind of talking to Jimmy last night. I mean, you guys have probably. He was trying to do the math, but, I mean, you all have probably built 500 homes.

B (12:35)

Yeah. It might Be south of that, it might be 4, 4 50. A lot. It's a bunch. Yeah, it's a bunch.

A (12:42)

Yeah. And at this point in life, I mean, you guys are, you know, speculatively buying large tracks. You guys are doing, like, turnkey development, so coordinating dirt work, platting the. Platting the subdivision, handling all of the zoning and permitting and the master planning, all the way to, you know, designing floor plans and, you know, what do they call them? The. The elevations? Like the architecture? I mean, stem to stern.

B (13:17)

Yeah.

A (13:17)

I mean, you guys. You guys do everything from clearing the trees to hand in somebody the keys to the front door.

B (13:23)

That's it. You got it. Yeah.

A (13:25)

That's incredible.

B (13:26)

Yeah. It's been a good journey, man. We. We've learned a lot along the way. We're not perfect at it, but we, you know, we talk about, even with our team, we're going to continue to strive for excellence.

A (13:34)

Yeah.

B (13:35)

And everything that we do, and I think that. I think it shows I'm an achiever by nature. I want to. I want to go fast. I want to go hard. I want to win big. You know, doesn't always happen like that. But the reality is, man, we're going to do it, and we're going to do it with excellence.

A (13:47)

You know, it's funny, knowing Jimmy, I'll tell you, if I had to buy a house from. Anybody buying a house that Jimmy was involved in building is the one. Because I'm going to talk about this with him.

B (14:03)

Yeah.

A (14:03)

But Jimmy cannot do something that is not 100% the correct way. Like he's physically incapable. You know, I love him for that.

B (14:13)

It'll eat him up.

A (14:14)

It just eats him alive, you know, But. But for me, that's exactly what you want in a home builder for sure. So your comment about striving for excellence, like, you guys do an incredible job of producing, like, high quality, affordable floor plans and in nicely planned neighborhoods. I mean, I've driven through a lot of the neighborhoods. It's phenomenal. So.

B (14:38)

Yeah.

A (14:39)

Yeah. That's cool, man.

B (14:40)

Yeah. Thanks for saying that. Appreciate it.

A (14:41)

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so let's see what we want to talk about first here. I guess let's get into a couple heavy things. So could we talk about maybe your upbringing and maybe some of your story there about the. Your dad and then some of the father figures, and then we'll. We'll just kind of go from there.

B (15:12)

Yeah. I'm 42. That's crazy. And I've lived a lot of life, you know, and it went by really really quick and, and that's. Lord willing, we got a lot of. Yeah. So my mom, she, she grew up in a pretty unstable, unstable household. And so she was trying to get out quick and so started dating and got married at 17 and then had me when she was 20. And you know, when you're 17 or even 20, you're not. Priorities are different. You're not thinking the way that you would as a 35 year old. But she was doing the best she could. And so she married my father. And my father wasn't ready to be a dad. And before I was the age of one, he left. And I don't even remember seeing the guy. Like, I don't, I have zero memory of what he was or who he was. And my mom doesn't talk a lot about what happened, but he left and, and I do remember a time from. It was somewhere around three. You know, you start having those, those really weird but fundamental memories early on. You can kind of start piecing them together. But I remember being at the wedding of her, her next husband, right. And I called him dad. He, he was a Hispanic guy, ex, convicted, um, had a, had a pretty bad rap sheet. Not a great dude at all. Alcoholic. So from three to 10 I watched. He taught me a lot. He taught me respect, number one. Like he, it was, yes sir, yes ma', am, please, thank you. It was, there's no yaz or huh, you're going to tuck in your shirt, you're going to, you know, not going to wear your hat in the house. It was straight up respect.

A (17:13)

Yeah.

B (17:13)

And if you didn't get it, you're gonna feel the wrath.

A (17:16)

Yeah.

B (17:17)

So he was an alcoholic, super abusive, you know, I can remember being, you know, 8, 9, 10 and having to call the police and you know, because he's beating the heck out of my mom, you know, and, and then I got a stepbrother out of the deal or half brother. Sorry. And he, he favored him. And so then the abuse kind of turned towards me a little bit and got. Got physical a lot. And so my mom put up with that until she couldn't anymore. And, and then I, I watched my brother, you know, when, when they divorced, I watched my brother kind of, he's. He was three at the time and he needed a dad. I did too for that matter. But um. And so, you know, he had visitations and his dad was just not a good dude. And both of our fathers are deceased now. But, but about the time I was 11, my mom started dating again. And at 12, she she married, remarried. Well, this is like dad number three for me. Right. And you're going to. I don't, I don't think this is going to work. And. Well, not only that, I'm. I'm just. I don't have the patience for it. And so I had, in my mind, I'm going. I just. If. If I could just find my real father, I think everything would be better the way it's supposed to be. And so I kept telling my mom that I was like, I'm gonna go find my real dad. I'm gonna go find my real dad. And so some way, somehow we. We found not him, but his mother. And we got in touch with her and she helped me purchase a plane ticket to fly to Florida. And so I jumped on a. On a plane at 13 by myself and flew to Florida, found the dude. And, you know, everything that I was idolizing and romanticizing and that, that my father would be just wasn't. And he was already married again, and he had a. A daughter, and I was just an interruption to their lives. And so came back home disappointed and defeated, angry and, and, and hateful of my, of my new stepfather. So I'm going, man, I'm. I don't want to have anything to do with you or anything or anybody else for that matter.

A (19:48)

Yeah.

B (19:48)

And so from, from 13 to, to really 21, I lived pretty sinful and broken life. Angry. And my second stepdad, the one I have a half brother with, he. He. He taught me how to steal, which is kind of crazy.

A (20:10)

Yeah.

B (20:10)

Like, I would, I would ride around with him on Saturdays and we would pick up, like, lawnmowers out of this warehouse you know, from other guys, and, and he would put in the back of the truck and then we would go, like, resell it. And so I thought that was kind of normal. I say all this stuff to say like, man, you don't realize what you've missed from your father until you have to become one. Does that make sense?

A (20:35)

Absolutely.

B (20:36)

Like, I, I had, I was just. This is just normal life. But then when you start dating or, or you get married or, or you become a father, you go, oh, man, I'm very ill equipped here.

A (20:48)

Yeah.

B (20:49)

And all the things that I've learned, I need to unlearn.

A (20:52)

Right.

B (20:53)

And go learn somewhere else. Right, right. But. But again, you know, in the midst of all that, you just go, this is just normal life. It's no big deal. And, and I would even have say. People say, I'm, man, I feel sorry for you. Don't have a dad. And I'd go, it's just normal. Yeah. And it is until it's not. Until you realize what you're missing. So, yeah, that's a. That's an abbreviated version, but that's. That's my, My childhood.

A (21:16)

It's funny you say kind of what you just said about it's. It's normal. I. I can kind of get in my own head about how, yeah, traumatic my childhood was. Right. But what's funny is I didn't think. I didn't think about it like that when I was a kid.

B (21:37)

Yeah.

A (21:38)

It was just my childhood, you know? And if I'm really honest with myself, even as complicated and traumatic as problems I had to deal with, there were, there are way worse situations out there, you know? I don't know where I'm going with that, David. I'm just. You're. I think you're spot on. I. Here's one question, because you probably. Well, how do you feel like that, seeing the divorce and the absentee kind of father thing? I know, I know the answer to this question, but I mean, you are incredibly committed to Katie.

B (22:26)

Oh, yeah.

A (22:28)

In the same way that I am incredibly committed to Whitney. Because I saw what divorce did. And it's not ever even a question or a thought that this isn't going to work. There's no scenario where this doesn't work 100%.

B (22:46)

Yeah.

A (22:48)

But one of the things I wrestle with is. Or, or not wrestle, maybe have to contend with is kind of, am I over correcting on. On some things?

B (23:00)

Sure.

A (23:01)

Do you. Do you ever. Kind of. And here's why I say this. Sorry, I'm talking a lot here, but you are who you are because of everything that happened to you up to this moment, right now, for sure. Right. And your resilience, your tenacity, just. I mean, everything about who you are and your success might be different if you hadn't been through everything you'd been through. Right. So on one hand, you wouldn't change that. You wouldn't change that. It's where you are. Right. But on the other hand, you wouldn't wish that on your kids.

B (23:38)

That's right.

A (23:38)

Right. And so what I find myself struggling with is I am incredibly independent, I'm incredibly tenacious and resilient and. And very passionate, committed because of everything I went through.

B (23:53)

Sure.

A (23:54)

How do I make sure that I'm not like, over correcting with my kids so that they're, you know, soft, weak, lazy, not committed, not passionate about anything because they live this incredibly comfortable, cushy life. Right. Does that, does that make sense?

B (24:12)

100%. Yeah. I think there's a couple of things there. You know, Number one, when you grow up the way you and I did, you got a couple of choices. You. You either repeat the cycle and use it as an excuse.

A (24:26)

Yeah.

B (24:27)

Or you go, I ain't gonna be that.

A (24:30)

Yeah.

B (24:30)

That's not gonna be me. And that was me. Like, I. I watched, you know, debt collectors call the house, and I watched my parents struggle for all kinds of stuff. You know, And, And. And the diversity. In my mind, I'm going. I'm gonna make a commitment to myself right now. I'm not gonna go into debt. I'm not going to divorce. I'm going to be the best father that I never had.

A (24:50)

Yeah.

B (24:51)

And. And I have to be real careful with that because it. That's. Those are all good things, but I can. I can make those God things.

A (25:00)

Yeah.

B (25:01)

Real quick. Where it. It is. It is the crux of my being like, that is what I'm here for. Right. And so I will over prioritize being a. Not failing as a father, not failing as. As a husband. So much so that I don't. I don't really get to enjoy what. What being a good father and a good husband really should be. I'm tough on my kids.

A (25:27)

Yeah.

B (25:28)

I mean, incredibly tough. Yeah. And praise the Lord, I have a wife that can gently remind me that. That a lot of that comes from my raisin. And, and that they're. They're good kids and they're not gonna. They're not gonna be or experience what I did. But that's what. That's where it stems from. Right. Like there's a fear of failure. Yeah. And. And you go, okay, that's either going to lead to a lack of commitment or it's going to lead to. I'm going to push and make sure that I do everything possible that. To keep that from happening again. Yeah. Now, you know, that's me putting faith in myself instead of the Lord, But. But it's a real struggle.

A (26:11)

Yeah.

B (26:11)

I mean, I hear what you're saying.

A (26:12)

Yeah. One of the things that has kind of come out of that is. I don't mean this. This is going to sound kind of twisted, but, like making sure to create an environment. And I know that you guys do this too, but almost manufacturing difficulty for your kids and manufacturing sounds like it's like manipulative in some way. But I think one of the things that Whitney and I have settled on Is resiliency, like, you know, from. From our childhoods was. Was really kind of born out of dealing with difficult things that we didn't have any control over.

B (27:02)

Sure.

A (27:03)

But to foster that same resiliency in our own kids, we can put them in very safe and controlled situations that can challenge them that they can fail, that. That they can compete at something and lose. You know, what. What have you guys done with your kids to, like, you know, make sure that they're one. One. One thing that we try to say in our household is that we. We do hard things.

B (27:39)

Sure.

A (27:39)

We can do hard things. Right?

B (27:41)

Yeah.

A (27:42)

But what. How does that. How do you guys do that?

B (27:46)

Yeah. So we do. We. We also do hard things and we allow our kids. I think, I think, first of all, I don't. I'm with you. I do want to recreate some sort of struggle for them, but I'll never be able to create it the way that I had it.

A (28:04)

Yeah.

B (28:05)

I also believe that each and every one of us was. Was created on purpose, for a purpose.

A (28:11)

Yeah.

B (28:11)

And. And my kids will have to struggle in a way that I've never had to struggle.

A (28:16)

That's. That's true.

B (28:17)

And I don't want to downplay that because they're in a situation where we're providing more than I ever could have even imagined for them, but that's going to produce its own struggle. I think it's my job to shepherd them in that way and not rescue more than anything else. It's just not rescue. Now, obviously, if they're threatened, I'm going to go to the rescue, but I'm going to allow them to fail. And failure is a word in my vocabulary that I've tried to. To ward out as much as possible. I, I hate failure. I want to. I, I put achievement almost above everything else. But I was listening to John Maxwell one time, and he was talking about failing is good. Yeah. You know, there's a. There's a movie out there that says failure is not an option. That's right. It's not, because we're all going to fail, but the reality is, is like, what are you going to do when you fail? I want my kids to be able to fail, but fail forward, you know, you can. You can fail backwards and go, okay, I'm. I fail and I'm going to blame. I'm going to shift. I'm going to make excuses. But, man, if you learn something from it, failure is actually really, really good. And so we're. We're teaching our kiddos like, even, even our boys, like, I left just a little while ago, my house, and we. They have a chore chart and they hate it. They absolutely hate it. But what kind of a dad would I be if I didn't teach them that? Like, hey, there's. Number one, I'm going to expose you to all the things that have to be done around this house, whether you do it or someone else does it. Like, I want you to know these are all the things. But then number two, like, I'm going to give them the opportunity to do those things and do it poorly.

A (29:58)

Yeah.

B (29:59)

So they're, they're. And it's, it's nothing major, but like, they know when they come home from school, they don't do anything at all until they do their list. And their list is pretty extensive. I mean, we make them clean their own lunchbox. You know, they're making their lunch for the next day, they're taking out the trash. I make them read for 10 minutes. I make them feed and feed them while their dog, you know, like, and these are, these are small things, but at the same time, it's like, man, they're, they're going to grow up and they're going to see that, like, number one, hard work is just, it's just normal. But number two, like, overcoming adversity, even in amongst an affluent household is, is going to happen. And when. And if they get an opportunity to, to overcome that, I'm going to let them do it. Even in, even in sports, man, we, there's times where they're getting fouled and I want to jump up and, you know, try to, to rescue them from that or whatever it is. But, and, and they're coming and they're throwing a fit and they're, they're really, what they're doing is they're asking me to rescue them and I'm going, man, I'm sorry. That's tough.

A (31:07)

Yeah.

B (31:08)

So we're, we're, you know, we, we do look for opportunities to either manufacture or at least allow them to fail in some, some capacity to, to, to strive. And maybe it's not exactly the same way that we, we did, you and I growing up, but, but like you said, it's, it's in a safe environment. We're, we're not gonna, we're not gonna coddle or protect. So.

A (31:32)

Yeah, yeah, we. It's kind of funny, it's so contrarian, I feel like, to the world today, but it's almost like, and this is so cliche to say, but trying to get our kids to understand that, like, it's okay to not be okay. And that's cliche to say, but really what I mean by that is, like, our oldest is. Is. Is deals with just. She's very anxious. She worries. She worries about, you know, what people think she worries about. She's easily embarrassed. You know, she just has a lot of kind of like, social anxiety about stuff like that. And it's kind of like, you know, what she wants to hear is, I'm okay, Everything's okay. And it's. It's kind of this. It seems super counterproductive, but it's kind of like you. You're not okay right now, but you will be okay. Yeah, like, this is survivable, but, you know, just kind of coaching them through, like, yeah, this. This really sucks. There is nothing. Maybe there's something I could do to make this go away right now, but that's not. That's not the most edifying thing for you long term.

B (32:51)

Sure.

A (32:52)

You know, this is survivable. And it's okay that you're not okay. You'll get okay. You know, it's just a weird place to be as a parent.

B (33:01)

Yeah. And I think, man, when Kenna grows up. You're talking about Kenna.

A (33:05)

Yeah.

B (33:05)

When K. Grows up, you know, my prayer for her would just be that she would see those tough times and then look back and go, man, like, I'm so much stronger because I was able to. To power through that. Maybe not on my own will, but even with just the Lord, like, I don't think it's fair for us to take away anyone's struggle, really. Right. Because on the backside, man, you. You really, really grow in the. In the uncomfortable moments. And so I pray the same thing for my kiddos, too.

A (33:35)

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So the next thing is. I don't know. I don't know how to ask this question, but I'm gonna just be very blunt, because as I. You and I talked about this already, but as I reflected and I. You talk as much or as little about this as you are comfortable. But when I was thinking about you driving up here, what kept coming to my mind was this concept of being angry at God. And, you know, you hear in. In Christian apologetics, you hear a lot. If God is so good, then why does he let bad things happen to people? Right? And in the last four or five years, you have had a lot of. I mean, I hate to say bad things, but. But you. You have had a lot of, like, tribulation. Sure. Trials. Right. And here's what's incredible. And I, I, I'm, I'm sure that you've struggled with at some point, but one of the things I really want you to talk about is, like, of all the people I know, you're one of the ones that, if, if I were you, I don't know how I would have been able to keep my head above water and not just be angry with God.

B (35:05)

Sure.

A (35:06)

Right. So would you just maybe share with us kind of some of what's gone on in your life over the last few years and maybe how you've leaned into God rather than pushing away?

B (35:21)

Yep. Yeah. I have to start by just saying, man, I love the Lord with all my heart, and that'll never change. I love the Lord, and that's just not something I say. I mean, that's who I am. It's an identity. But, you know, Katie and I took a trip to Costa Rica and one time, and we were like, hey, let's, let's venture into Nicaragua. It's a neighboring country, and it'll be a blast. You know, there's volcanoes over there. And so we, we did that. And, and when we came back, I started feeling a little weird. And actually, it was really weird because I didn't feel, I didn't start feeling weird until about 30 days after I was back in the States. And so vertigo, this weird, sharp pain, you know, in my abdomen. And when I'd stand up, I would either pass out or, or nearly pass out. And this, this lasted for about three months. I laid in bed for three months. Didn't go to, didn't go to work. And, and what's interesting is when you're conscious of what's going on around you, but you can't physically take presence in any of that, there's a quality of life that's just not worth living anymore. Yeah, so that, that's, that's the first thing. Now, the Lord redeemed me of that. And, and I actually, I made a deal with him. I don't know if you're supposed to make deals with the Lord or not, but I did. I got up, you know, when in the midst of my sickness, I got up to the best of my ability. I got up and went on the back porch and I opened my Bible and I was like, you know, first, I'd already committed my life to the Lord, but, and had been walking with the lord for probably 10 years at that moment. But, but I said, lord, if you'll, if you'll heal me, Man, I'll live for you all the days of my life. And not just, not just live, but really live. And I'll on my, all my, my skills, my talents, my treasures, my gifts, whatever it is, they're all yours. It's all yours. And, and, and he delivered me from that. So I got well, praise the Lord. And we struggled through some debt as well, paying off homes and, and again, I'm an achiever. And so I decided, man, we're gonna, we're gonna pay off all our debt. And we did that. Dave Ramsey. Thanks Shout out. And then we paid off our home and then, man, we were flying high. I was going, man, this is good, I'm going to keep going. And we did. And the Lord reminded me like, man, I'm still your provider, not you, I'm your provider. And okay. And then we had some sickness in the family. So Katie's got a sister named Hannah and Hannah has. They, she got engaged and then married really quick. And right after they got married, they got pregnant and lost a baby about six days after, after the birth. And that was tough for Hannah. It's tough for, for Katie, my wife. And it's tough for me because I'm going like, I don't, I don't know how to deal with this. I don't know how to be a supportive husband. I've never been down this road. But, and then, and then just about six weeks, maybe eight weeks after Melena passed away, Stephen, my brother in law, found out he had leukemia. And so we, now we're walking through that and that, you know, we never really saw, I never saw illness like this. But he's, he's in hospitals, he's going through full body radiation and every kind of chemo immunotherapy. He wound up doing a bone marrow transplant. And, but, but he was on his deathbed, man, he was, he's looking pretty rough. And, and, but in, in all this time, we're, again, we love the Lord, but you're going, what in the world's going on here? Like, we're sold out for you. We're doing all the things we're given. You know, we're, we're spending our time, we're telling people about the Lord and we're living a lifestyle that proves that. But like it seems like something's going on here. Shortly after that, Katie, this is 20, 21. Katie, my wife is diagnosed with breast cancer. Yeah, she, she comes home from birthday, a birthday party, her birthday party finds a lump and she goes, hey, come, come Check this out. And I was like, all right, yeah. And. And then I feel the lump and, and I'm going, man, this is not good. And so we, she goes in next, next couple weeks waiting on biopsies and things like that were pretty challenging. We're worried. And then we're going, ah, it's nothing. It's fine. And then came back. It's, it's breast cancer. So we go through this and I'm scared to death. I'm going number one. Like, I got three kids and I cannot do this by myself. Yeah, I'm not equipped. I'm a good dad because I get to go out and work and be away from my kids for a little while and then come back home and love the heck out of them. So being a full time dad, I just going, I don't think I can do that. And so we're surrendering to the Lord again and going, man, like, I don't know what's going on here, but I need, need some help. She went through double mastectomy and, and they tested everything and they said, hey, you're, you're good, you're cancer free. Just going to keep an eye on you. But we think we're fine. So fast forward about two and a half years, and Katie's mom had felt kind of this slump in her abdomen. Kind of ignored it for a little while, but then finally went in and turns out she had ovarian cancer. And it was aggressive. And they said, you know, maybe eight months maybe. We're going, holy cow. So we're watching her mom and we're spending as much time as we possibly can. And again, as a, as a father and as a husband, you know, I'm trying to figure out what to do here. You know, one of the best marriage advice that we got in counseling before we got married was man to be a constant student of your spouse. I'll talk a little bit more about that, you know, later with kids, because it's, it applies there too. But, but I'm, I'm just studying Katie and I'm going, how's she responding? What does she need? How can I, how can I be a. The husband that she needs for me right now, even if I don't know how to be? And so her mom is about a week from passing and Katie finds another lump on in her. And we go get tested and we found out about a week before Katie's mom passed away that Katie's cancer had returned. And we're going to, I, at this point, you Talk about. You talked about. How do you go through adversity and not become angry with. With God? Well, now I'm angry. Yeah, I am. We pulled into a parking lot. It was Katie and I. And I. I started thinking and praying, and I said, lord, why don't you come on down here and let's talk? I mean, I was ready to fight.

A (42:44)

Yeah.

B (42:45)

You know, if Jacob could fight, I could fight, too. But. And, and, and this is. This is going to blow your mind. So I'd gotten to the point in my prayer life where I would get up early in the morning and I would open the word and I would pray and I would read. And, and, and the Lord just started kind of giving me a word at a time. And. And I don't. I don't really know how to hear from the Lord, but I do know, like, I can. If you'll just give me one word, I'll run with that. Just give me one word, right? Yeah. And so he gave me a word, and it was surrender. And I didn't really know what it meant at the time, but, you know, for. For about six months, that was the word. And I. So I said, like, well, I'll just pray. I'll pray that. So I would get up early in the morning and I would say, lord, today I surrender my life back to you. Okay. Not just with words, but, like, my whole body, man, I. I surrender my life back to you, Lord, today. Cider builders, man, I. I surrender my business back to you today, Father. I, I, I surrender my wife, Katie, to you, and my kids to you. And I. And I said this prayer for six, eight months. And then I was reminded in that parking lot when I was talking to God, telling to come on down and let's fight. He goes, wait, wait, wait. For the last six months, you've been saying, I surrender, Katie. Like, did you surrender? Yeah, because you don't fight people that you surrender your, you know, your life over to. And some. And I was just. Man, I fell apart. I was going, you know what? And this is where faith is really lived out. You can't just say, I love the Lord and surrender and then get the opportunity to do so and then be mad about it. It's like saying, I want to be a millionaire. And then all of a sudden, you're a millionaire, and then you're going, what in the world? This about this?

A (44:44)

Yeah.

B (44:44)

No, I couldn't do that. And so it was a challenge. But so for. So Katie's mom passed away, and then now we're Going through the full blown, the full meal deal. So we go to UT Southwestern. They decide, hey, we're gonna. We're gonna give you the, the. The worst kind of chemo you can get. And then afterwards, we're going to put you through radiation. So she had eight rounds of chemo, 33 rounds of radiation, and then now she, She's. She takes a shot every 28 days. And a really expensive pill that suppresses any kind of free radical cells in the bone marrow if it's ever there. And then one that suppressed the pituitary gland because hers was hormonal. And so we basically want to try to get rid of the hormones. And so she's through all that now, and I feel like we're finally kind of breathing and living life again. But I look back and I say, man, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I would not. But I was telling Jimmy the other day, I was like, man, I. I think I took a, like a 10, maybe 15 year shortcut in my faith. Like, I would have gotten here. Yeah, but, but you don't know how good the Lord is until you've had the opportunity to. To allow him to prove it. And, and when your back's against the wall and you've done everything, you've white knuckles your way through life, you grab the steering wheel and you're just going, and, and it's still not working. At some point you got to go, all right, I'm out, Lord. Like, I don't know what's going on. And so the level of real surrender that, that we had to do.

A (46:22)

Yeah.

B (46:23)

And then looking on the backside, man, our kids got to watch us go through trials that most kids their age would never have to watch, like, and then come out on the backside and go, oh, we're good. So sometimes, man, I think our trials that the Lord allows us to go through, number one, if we never. If we never go through a trial, then we don't know how good God is in. In the rescuing and portion of that. Number two, sometimes our trials aren't even about us. Sometimes about the people that are watching us. Yeah. And I'm. I mean, I might be cursing God going, what in the heck are you doing? And he goes, it's never been about you. It's not about you. It's always been about me, about him. But, But I watch my kids now and, like, when crazy things come up that they should be freaking out about, they're going, oh, it's just another trial. It's no big deal. And so, man, like, I, I, I have, I've done all the stages of grief and I've been mad and I've been angry and I've been sad and, and then, you know, you get back to, to kind of normal now. But I'd say that there's not much that can rattle me much anymore. I'm going. And today's a good day. I'm not guaranteed even the next breath. So today, what am I going to do with it? I'm just gonna, I'm going to figure out, you know, I told you earlier, I think every one of us has been created on purpose for a purpose moment. What's my purpose? Not even my overarching purpose, but like, what's my purpose right now?

A (47:47)

Yeah.

B (47:48)

Even in this podcast with you, ma'. Am. What?

A (47:50)

Right?

B (47:50)

What's my purpose? And so if I can figure out a way to live that out in its fullest, then I'm going, man, whatever tomorrow brings, that's fine. But today, man, it's great.

A (47:59)

Yeah, man. I'm kind of trying to remember. It's funny, my mom had two open heart surgeries, two or three open heart doubled, and then a quadruple bypass and, and then had some congestive heart failure and all of this. But all of the majority of that stuff happened before the breast cancer came back. The majority of that stuff happened before I was probably seven years old.

B (48:34)

Yep.

A (48:34)

And I remember, I don't remember much, although I remember a couple conversations. And I didn't know it at the time, but like before mom was going in to have heart surgery, it was, you know, as a four or five, six year old kid, mom was effectively telling me goodbye, you know, because she didn't know that she was going to come out of heart surgery. Now, look, as a six year old, I have no idea what's going on, you know, but that kind of, I'm, I'm curious if, if you're okay talking about it, but like, what has the communication cadence looked like with the kids about what's going on? Because fatherhood in general, there's no playbook. But dealing with what you guys have dealt with is like, is like, you know, there really is no playbook.

B (49:36)

Yeah.

A (49:37)

So how did you guys handle that? I mean, and you know, maybe just to be more blunt, like, you know, okay, the cancer's come back, you know, do you sit the kids down and have a family meeting and say, mom's got cancer again, you know?

B (49:50)

Yep.

A (49:51)

And then when you come up with the treatment plan, you know, do you Sit the kids down and say, okay, we got a treatment plan. What mom has to. What does that look like? Or how did y' all do it?

B (50:01)

Yeah. And so I don't think we had a plan other than knowing, like, in our family, we don't hide much.

A (50:05)

Yeah.

B (50:06)

Really, we don't hide anything. Like, even when Katie and I argue, like, man, we're. We're all out in the open, and we're not hiding any of that. And so it just came natural for us to just be extremely honest. I don't know how good that was or not, but I do know that the Lord really probably protected our kiddos to. To know how. How bad it really was. But. But we would. We would say, hey, man. Yeah. And we did. We sat them down. We're like, hey, Mom's cancer's back. This next year is going to be tough. We need you guys to. To help us bond together as a family. There's going to be things that you're going to be exposed to. There's gonna be things that we're going to ask you to do that you've probably never done before. But we need you to understand this is what families do. And we. We bond together. We help each other out. We do hard things, and we're not guaranteed tomorrow, but we're going to fight like crazy.

A (51:01)

Yeah.

B (51:02)

And. And there was. Man, we. We. We all cried. We all cried together. You know, we. And they. I think, you know, Mason, he's eight now. He was. He was six at the time. And he. He's my. He's my fireball, man. He lives life to its fullest. There's not much that he's not emotional really, at all. My middle. He's way more emotional. But Cambry, she understood a little bit more. And so, Cam. She felt the magnitude and the heaviness of what was going on and understood the real possibilities that mom may or may not make it. But at the same time, like, man, and we talked about this earlier, like, man, I could rescue them from that, but is that wise?

A (51:50)

Yeah.

B (51:50)

And I can. I can deflect and I can hide, but if something does happen, like, I still have to. We still have to go through that. So, like, let's not rescue our kids. Let's just. Let's be honest, and then let's tell them where our hope is.

A (52:03)

Yeah.

B (52:04)

And it ain't in me.

A (52:05)

Yeah.

B (52:06)

I can fix a lot of things, but cancer ain't one of them.

A (52:08)

Yeah.

B (52:10)

So, man, we would. We would pray together as a family every night. We'd pray, you know, they would know and understand that, like, Dad's gonna go to every single doctor visit, radiation, chemo, follow ups, you name it, Dad's gonna be there. So. So they're gonna spend a lot of time with grandma, you know, and they were cool with that. And they understood. They knew if, if we weren't present or if mom wasn't feeling good, she was on, you know, hovering over the toilet, throwing up. It's because that's the, that's the season that we're in and, and we're gonna, we're gonna make sure that we bond together as a family. To, to make this as. As easy as we possibly can, but. But to not. Not be rescued or not be sheltered from it. So it's funny, and I think we'll see the net result of, of how that affected them later. But right now it's like, oh, that's old hat. You know, it's almost like when you're going through something that's the biggest thing you got going on and you think, this is never going to go away. And then you fast forward, you're going like, wait a minute, what did we do? Man, that was kind of a blur. I don't even remember it anymore. And so, and you have to be careful because those, those hills and valleys where you'll. If you're not careful, you'll go, I'm good. That could never happen again. You don't want to get to that point. There needs to be a righteous fear of what may come. But that same time, like, we don't want to hang our hat on, you know, this is the end all. Be all for us too. So.

A (53:34)

Yeah.

B (53:35)

Yeah.

A (53:36)

What, what would you say, you know, like, if, if somebody is listening to this who has. Is currently struggling with kind of that. Why, God? Why, why is this going on? Why? Because the, the, you know, it's, it's. Why are you doing this to me? That's the, that's, that's the anger, right? Sure. And I know you, you know, you, you talked about the, the surrender, which, by the way, was very convicting to me. But, you know, like, if you, if somebody walked in the door right now and they were like, dude, I'm just, I'm mad at God and I don't understand what's going on. What would you, what would you tell them?

B (54:30)

Yeah, you know, with my kids, I. I've got this thing on my mirror where I say, and I have to teach it because I'm not a great, not a great dad. I lose my temper a lot. But first I've got a pause and then I've got to connect. And then we correct and then we celebrate. You know, we go through those, those things. And so first, for an emotional person like that, I'd say, man, tell me more, man, I, I feel you. I've been there. But the reality is, it's like our ways are not the Lord's ways. So for us to get to the point where we're going to say why, we would never understand. Yeah. But number two, coming from a guy that's been there, I would say, why not? Because on the backside I see and I'll never know the depth or understanding of what, what transpired, not only in my own life, but in the people around us that watched us go through trials. I'll never understand the full fruit of that until we get to heaven, probably. But, but what I do know personally is, you know, now I'm going, lord, I, I'm grateful for the trials. I'm, I, I, I, I don't invite it, but I'm, I'm okay. Because when it comes, I know something good's going to come from the back end. Spiritual growth and maturity, knowing and understanding that like, today isn't the end all be all for me, that I can place my hope and faith in him and him alone, that it is better on the backside. But, but the reality is, you know, I can relate. If you're mad, man, be mad. And the Lord never said you couldn't be like, be upset for sure. But we should also have this righteous respect for him and know that his ways are just not ours. And that like, if he's, if he's allowing you to go through a trial, whether you believe it or not, and it's for his glory and you're good.

A (56:25)

Yeah.

B (56:26)

And I would say, just be patient and wait. Wait upon the Lord. Wait, wait, wait. And that's not easy to do. Nobody wants to wait. Right. But, but you know, James, chapter one says, consider it pure joy. My dear brothers and sisters, when trials of any kind come your way, because it's an opportunity for your faith to be test. Check this out. For your endurance to grow.

A (56:48)

Yeah.

B (56:49)

Well, why in the world we need endurance? Yeah, because we know we're gonna, we're gonna have another trial. Yeah, dude. Yes, the trial sucks. But if we don't go through this trial, it's not if, but when the next trial is coming, you want to be prepared for that. This is the only way to be prepared is to go through this one and then the next one and then the next one. And so I would say, just, man, have faith, have hope, be. Be upset, but let it be a season and a second, and then get back to knowing that the Lord is good.

A (57:18)

Yeah, this is kind of random, but you're talking about James. And, you know, through trials and tribulations comes steadfastness. Right? That's. That's how you get. Steadfastness is through trial and tribulation. Like, there's really no other way to get there, you know? But something that's been just. This is kind of random, but something that's been rolling around in my mind is I had a guy on the podcast, Ty, Ty. And I have a lot of, like, philosophical conversations, stoic conversations, whatever. And we got into this conversation a year or two ago, and Ty hit me with this. He said, you know, if you're trying to eliminate suffering in your life, you will always be unsuccessful. And he said, now you have the choice of some of your suffering. Right. So an example would be dieting, being healthy, working out. I would classify that as suffering. Right. Going to the gym and working out, not eating an entire bag of Doritos. You know, that takes. Now, look, I'm. I. I don't want to. You know, I'm not trying to make this comical or funny, but that is an element of suffering. Living. Living a healthy lifestyle, taking care of your body takes an element of kind of self sacrifice. Right. So you can delay your suffering by eating whatever you want. Not working out. Right. But what that will end up in is the suffering is still coming.

B (59:06)

Oh, yeah.

A (59:07)

But it's going to come later, and you're going to have a whole bunch of different problems.

B (59:12)

Sure.

A (59:12)

Right. Diabetes, heart disease, heart attack, whatever. And it just really kind of clicked a switch in my mind, which is here's kind of tying it together is when I. When I reframed that and I said, you know, I don't always enjoy going to the gym in the morning, but I count that suffering as joy. Because in a loose kind of frame of mind, all of the suffering that I can endure today, hopefully, is suffering that I don't have to endure later. Now I may still suffer tremendously later.

B (59:55)

Yeah.

A (59:56)

Does that even make sense, dude?

B (59:57)

100. Yeah.

A (59:58)

Yeah. I don't know. It's just. You kind of get to choose your suffering in life, you know?

B (60:03)

Well, that's what I was talking about earlier. You know, failure is not an option.

A (60:08)

Yeah, yeah.

B (60:09)

We're gonna fail. Yeah. It's just gonna happen. We're we're going to suffer and we can run from it. I think the Lord calls us to a righteous life, you know, a moral standard, so that we can reduce that suffering. But there's some self inflicted suffering for sure. You know, we call those natural consequences in our home. But then there's some that the Lord just allows us to take on. And that's the one that I think that James is really talking about. Man. There, there are times that the Lord allows you to suffer. We've just learned how to suffer.

A (60:40)

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, I said this, I've said this a couple times. But another thing that really stood out to me was this thought of, you know, it's very possible that the worst, the worst thing that ever happens to you can be the best thing that ever happens to you.

B (61:01)

Sure.

A (61:02)

Right. And I think that's the James, the James concept. Right. Like in the moment, this is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you. But we don't understand the way, we don't understand the world and the timeline of events and the way that God does. And the worst thing that happens to you today could be the, the best thing that ever happens to you in your life. So. All right, I want to go back to the being a student of your spouse piece. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. And then how that translates into kids too.

B (61:33)

Yeah. So. And I, I'll never forget it. And I'll, this will be a, just something that we practice forever. But you know, I, Because of the way I grew up, I, and, and it was a selfish mentality. I thought that things would, you know, that Katie was there to make me happy. Right. And so, you know, you read books like, you know, the Five Love Languages, Gary Chapman and, and you learn her love language. And you're going, all right, this is it. I got it. I've nailed it. Right? And then, and then, and then all of a sudden she's, Katie's into new things. And, and what's interesting is as a young man growing up as well, trying to figure out just how to be a husband, it annoyed me. Almost made me mad or jealous. I'm like, why are you, are you running? What are you, what do you mean? You're running and you're running without me. So like, are you trying to get away from me? Like, what's going on? Oh, you're reading books now? That's so weird. And so I'm like, you know, it was almost this like every time she would change or do something new or have New interest. It would almost offend me. That was my own insecurity. But the reality is, is, like, and Katie, she's just like me and you.

A (62:51)

We.

B (62:51)

We have. We have different likes and interests, and life changes whether we want it to or not. Sometimes that's external. But love languages change, too. You know, when, when, when you're young and in love and you're married, you know, just a couple of years, you know, you, Her, Her. I can remember her. One of her gifts or her love language was gift giving. And I'm an awful gift giver, by the way. I hate gifts. Don't get me a gift. I don't want to give you a gift.

A (63:18)

Same here, dude. Yep.

B (63:21)

But I did it, and, and, and, and against my will, I did it. I loved her, and so I. That's why I did it. But when kids come along, the gifts kind of fall by the wayside. She could care less, and she's going to. I need acts of service and some quality time, you know, take care of these kids now that. That's how you can love me.

A (63:43)

Yeah.

B (63:45)

And so I. I've learned the hard way of, you know, of really watching Katie because I love her and going, oh, man, you're into tennis now. That's super cool. Tell me more about that. And really trying to be supportive in that way, because, man, if I, If I love her and support her, even in the changes, the reciprocation is, Is so worth it. Like, and it's not why I do it, but it's like, man, she's. She's excited about anything that I'm excited about, and it's not for any reason other than, number one, she loves me. But number two, like, I'm not, I'm not trying to downplay her new likes or interests, but. So I've kind of mastered that. I feel pretty good about. Our marriage is rock steady, super cool. But. But now I'm. I'm applying the same principles and practices with our kiddos. So, number one, I've got three kids, and they're all very different. And as a dad, I want to be able to go, all right, here's the recipe that I figured out that works, and I want to apply it across the board with all three kids, and it just doesn't work. And that's the most frustrating. It's like trying to pretend to be three different men. I'm like, I just can't do it right now. With the Lord's will and patience for me, he's taught me how to be A student of my kiddos individually. And what is Lucas specifically into? And even though what worked yesterday doesn't work today, I can get mad or upset about it, or I can meet him like I was talking about earlier and go, all right, let me connect with him before I correct. Let me try to really figure out, even though his anger makes me angry and his frustrations make me frustrated, somebody's got to pause and then connect and go and tell me more about what's going on. Oh, yeah, yeah, that would make me upset, too. And then. And then talk about regulating emotions and not letting those emotions turn into behaviors or physical patterns, but they. They just change. So, like, you know, Cambry is my firstborn rule follower. She wants to please. I don't have to correct her pretty much ever. Emotional Lucas is my emotional one. He. He's caught in between the baby and the. And the. The oldest. And so when I correct him, the. The first response is. Is an emotional response, you know, often even disrespect. And that gets me. But I'm. But I have to. I have two choices. I can. I can try to will them into who I want them to be, or I can watch and be a good shepherd and go, you know what? It's not the way I would do it. And. And. And I've. And there's some lines here that you're crossing, and I'm just going to gently kind of get you back over into where you need to be. But. But I would be a bad father if I go, no, you're going to do it the way that I do it, the way that I say you're going to do it. You're going to play basketball whether you want to or not. You know, I want my kids to. To be active. Um, but, like, man, me forcing something that I like on them, as much as it hurts, it's not about me. It's about them. And so I love them enough to be a student of them.

A (66:59)

Yeah.

B (66:59)

Yeah,

A (67:05)

I wrote it down here. I want to just. I've never heard this before, so I want you to expand a little bit on this. Pause. Connect. Correct.

B (67:17)

Yep.

A (67:17)

Celebrate.

B (67:18)

Yeah.

A (67:21)

Is that. Tell it. Tell me more about that. Like, is that. When do you use that? And specifically, like, the pause and the connect and the correct pieces kind of sound like I can understand there mentally. But yeah, the celebrate piece, like, you know, how do you tie that all together?

B (67:38)

Yeah, like I said, Cambry is firstborn rule follower. She's easy to. To parent. And. And Mason, even though he's a Spitball. Like, if, if I, if I get on him, he's. He's coachable and correctable. So all of this pause and connect and correct and celebrate really stems around Lucas. I love him to death. He's. His name is David Lucas. So she's named after me.

A (68:06)

Right, Your namesake.

B (68:07)

Oh, my gosh. And so he's, he is so much like me, but so different that the things that make him upset are the things that make me upset. And we can, man, we can amp each other up, but I'm the adult, right. And so, man, I will never quit on Lucas. I love him with all of my heart, even whenever it's tough. And that's what I would say to most dads is like, man, when it's tough, just don't quit. Yeah. Don't be a quitter. Like, you don't have to do it perfect, but do not quit.

A (68:41)

Yeah.

B (68:42)

So I'm not quitting on him, but I, I, I know this about me. Like, if he disrespect is probably my, is what gets me riled up more than anything else. Don't disrespect me. Don't disrespect my wife.

A (68:56)

Yeah.

B (68:57)

And when I see the way he talks with a tone and with the fire in his eyes towards my wife, towards Katie, I'm going to. I'm fixing to hang you up by your toenails.

A (69:07)

Yeah.

B (69:07)

And. And it's going to be bad news for you for a long, long time. And so, you know, I, I have some moments that I'm not proud of, where I've lost.

A (69:17)

Yeah.

B (69:17)

My ever loving mind. Yeah. And. And I have to apologize to him about that. And, and, and really not even apologize. I've got to earn his trust back because I've lost trust with him. And so just in my quiet time, in my prayers, I was going, lord, I. Again, I surrender Lucas to you, but I've got to figure out something different here. You know, what can I do? And I'm not perfect at it by any means, but I, but I am perfecting the craft of first and foremost, when he gets emotional, I get emotional. And so I'm going to just pause. Even though I want to go rip his head off and tell him he's kicked out of the family, the reality is none of that's good. And so I'm going to, I want to run in there and fix this problem, but I'm actually going to run the other way for a second. I'm going to breathe and I'm going to Think about what I'm about to say. And more times than not, I'm not saying anything. I'm just going. I'm going to go be present with him for a second. Am I going to say anything? I'm just going to be present. And he knows when I enter the room, he's going, oh, man, something's about to go down. And so I can either yell and holler and scream, or I can get physical, or I can just be present. And so I'm pausing just to be present. And then I'm getting down on eye level, and I'm going, hey, Luke, what's going on, man? And if he's not ready, if he's still emotional, then I'll give him some space, but I'm not. I'm not going to not address it. And so there are times where he's still emotional and he's still yelling and screaming and hollering, but, like, eventually he'll cool down and I'll go back and I'll say, tell me what's going on. Well, then he'll tell me what's going on. And it's the pilliest things.

A (70:56)

Yeah.

B (70:56)

You know, Mason took something and ran over him, and now he makes this. This big. This bigger to do than it really is. And I. And I. And I'm going, you know what, man? I've been there. That does suck. And I hate it, too. And. And it makes me mad. Does it make you mad? Yeah. Make you want to hurt him? Yeah. I know that feeling. So, man, I'm right there with you. But, man, think about this. If everybody in the world, every time they got mad or sad or angry or whatever the emotion is, they took action. And actually, you know, that. That, that determined their behavior, either verbally or physically or whatever it is. If everybody acted on their emotions, man, we'd be in a bad, bad spot, none of it. And this is our family, man. We want peace in our family. It doesn't mean it's going to be perfect. We want peace. And so I'm starting to try to rational with him. And so he's. He's 10. You know, it's hard to rationalize with somebody that's 10, but. But I can do that a lot better after I've connected than I can while he's still emotional. And so, so I'm. I've connected now. I've corrected. And then I'm going, hey, can you. Can you. And I try something? The next time that you. You start to feel that anger towards me or Your mom or your brother, sister, whatever it is. Can you pause? Just take a pause. Like, and that's. And it doesn't have to be, like, in the same room. You can go. And you can still be upset, but. But instead of acting on it immediately, can. Can we pause? And. And he'll. I'll. I'll get about a 50 commitment out of him.

A (72:44)

Yeah.

B (72:45)

And. And I would say even though he commits 50%, he probably practices 10. Yeah. But, man, what. What gets praised gets repeated.

A (72:56)

Yeah.

B (72:57)

And when I praise him for something, he's going, oh, man, I did something good. And I love that feeling. I'm gonna go do it again. And so I try my best to. To just. To just encourage and praise him for the. It may not even be 10, might be 1%.

A (73:13)

Yeah.

B (73:14)

And I live for the 1%. I live for him. I can't. And I. I have to look for it because sometimes it's not there, but I have to go, lord, show me where he's winning so that I can encourage that so that it's repeatable over and over and over again. So, yeah, that's. That's where that came from. And it's. Again, I'm not. Not perfect at it, but it's. It's a practice. I have to. Sometimes I have to write it down and put it in my pocket. Sometimes it's. It's written on the mirror in front of my bathroom sink so that I don't forget it.

A (73:42)

So is that celebrate peace? Is that something that, you know, like, I'm kind of reminded of in parenting? A lot of times you. We forget this, but you should work as equally hard at catching them doing things right as you do catching them doing things wrong.

B (74:03)

Sure.

A (74:04)

So when you think about the celebrate piece, you know, so you sit down, you connect with them, you. You say, hey, next time can we try this?

B (74:13)

The.

A (74:13)

The responsibility, though, on you is that you're attentive and you're paying attention because you've got to be present and engaged enough that you can see when he demonstrates what you've asked him to do. Because that's when the celebration piece comes in.

B (74:29)

Yeah.

A (74:29)

Is that right?

B (74:30)

That is right. And it's going to be different for every kid. So you have to be a student of your kid to know what celebration even looks like.

A (74:37)

Right.

B (74:39)

I can go get him a new toy. And he's going, of course I love a new toy. But, man, his. His love language is words of affirmation. When I affirm him, all of a sudden he's not, he's not insecure anymore. He's, he's. We want our kids, we want to raise secure, independent kids that, that know that, that, that they can overcome anything. But the reality is if they're insecure, then there's a lot of weaknesses and emotional responses there. But like for Lucas specifically, the, the celebration is, is encouragement and words of affirmation. Now we, we will, we might, you know, we might. Hey, you do that 10 times. We're gonna, we're gonna go somewhere big. We're gonna do something. But the reality is, man, he just wants to, he just wants me to affirm him.

A (75:28)

Yeah.

B (75:29)

And I think we all do, man. I'm, I, I'm a 42 year old man still looking for my dad to affirm me.

A (75:34)

Right? Yeah.

B (75:35)

You know?

A (75:35)

Yeah.

B (75:36)

I read a book one time that said, man, we, we're all walking around with these, these signs, these invisible signs around our neck that says, I want to feel important.

A (75:45)

Yeah.

B (75:46)

Make me feel important, you know? So.

A (75:47)

Yeah. All right, well, let's, let's wrap with. I got one more question for you and I'll, I'll maybe ask it in a couple ways, but just to get the frame of, frame of mind, right? So think about the phase you're in today, but think about the couple of phases before. So maybe, maybe back when Katie was pregnant, maybe you had a newborn or a toddler and Katie was pregnant or, or maybe all three kids were born, but they were still really young. Right? So some of those phases, when you, when you think back, what is something that you used to think was really important, but knowing what you know today is not nearly as important as you thought it was, and, or whichever one you want to answer what is something that you didn't think was important that looking back now you realize like that was. I should have done more of that.

B (76:54)

Yep. Again, I don't know if this is the way the, the Lord wired me or if, if this is a product of my raising, but I, I, I desperately want to not fail. I'm an achiever. I, I don't want to fail. And I spent a large portion of my married life and, and with my kiddos trying to be perfect, you know, trying to be the dad that I didn't, that I didn't have. And I made that an idol. You know, I, I'm going, man, I'm gonna get this right and I'm gonna, I'm gonna to a fault. And it made it, it made it not fun for my kids or my wife, for that matter. And so I. That's not nearly as important as I thought, like, allowing myself the opportunity to. To not be perfect, to. To not be hard on myself and try to correct it, to not try to raise perfect kids. You know, I. I put all those things on a pedestal, and I. I thought those were important, but they're really not.

A (78:07)

So I know you're about to say something else, but I just gotta ask a kind of a clarifying question here. I'm. I'm so glad that this came up because one of the things that I've been kind of worried about as I've been doing these conversations is I don't want people to ever walk away from this with the misrepresentation that any of us have it figured out. In fact, I. I try really hard to make sure that we talk about what's not going well equally is what's going well. But when you say, like, I made that an idol, I want to be, like, really clear with other dads out there. Can you help me understand, like, for someone that has maybe never considered that, but. But is maybe struggling with it, how would that manifest itself? Like, what does it look like to idolize being the dad on the white horse? What can. I mean, can you. What is it? Like, how would you catch yourself? Can you think of any. A time where you were like, yeah, what was it?

B (79:18)

So as you and I are, we have three. Three real roles. It's father, husband, leader, or husband, father, leader. That's not an option. Doesn't mean you're going to do it well, but that's not an option. But because of my background, I'm going. No, I'm going to do it right and well and perfect. Part of. Part of being a husband and a father is providing, even financially. And, man, I. I put it on myself to. To do that at all costs. I mean, I will. I'll lose sleep.

A (79:58)

Yeah.

B (79:58)

I won't eat. I will hustle. I mean, I. When I say idol, I mean I placed it above any and everything else and I lost why I was doing it.

A (80:10)

Yeah. Okay.

B (80:11)

Yeah. Does that make sense? So, like, I fell in love with the process of trying to provide when I forgot who I was providing for.

A (80:18)

Okay. Yeah. No, yeah. That's exactly what I was asking. Yeah, you get, you know, you get more hung up in. In the romanticism of being the provider and the dad, and you lose sight of being the dad.

B (80:40)

Yeah.

A (80:41)

Like, it almost makes you. It makes you less present in the most meaningful parts of fulfilling those roles. Yeah. Good. Well, I probably derailed you. But you were going to say something else. I don't know if you remember.

B (80:57)

That was what's not important. What is important is a relationship. So being present, man, I. The second year of our marriage, I was working so much. I was trying to get a business off the ground. And I was, you know, I had a real full time job and, um, I was flipping homes. I was just, I was doing anything and everything. And I. And I can remember Katie coming and she's crying or upset, and we're, we're arguing. I was like, what do you want from me? I mean, I'm going out. I'm doing this for you. And she's like, I just want you and you're going. Well, I can't be both. Right. But, but the reality is, it's like, man, she. People don't expect as much from us as we think they do. That's number one. But number two is like, the more time that I spend away from my body, my kiddos and my wife, the less of a relationship that I have with them. Man, I have all of my life to make money if that's what I want to do or to try to, you know, seek the approval of men. I think I have, I have an issue with that sometimes where I, I'm even raising my kids so that, so that other people can approve that I've done a good job. Right. But the reality is, man, they don't care about any of that. They just want me to be present. Yeah. And. And we talk about all the time, you know, love is spelled T I M E. You got to spend time with people if you truly want to love them and if you expect love in return. Relationships are hard and difficult. But the reality is there's no shortcuts. You have to spend time, and there's no amount of money or achievement that you can, that you can gain. That would, that would take the place of that. Yeah. And so that is important. I didn't think it was as important as it is. And as I'm getting older and as I'm running out of Runway, especially with Cambry, man, she'll be, she'll be driving in two and a half years, and then, you know, another year and a half. Two years after that, she'll be out of school and you're going, man, what? I don't. It seemed like you were born yesterday. Like, I'm running out of time.

A (83:01)

Yeah.

B (83:01)

I can always go make money and I can always achieve things. But like, man, I, I really have to focus on the relationship. And so that's the part that I didn't think was as important as it really is.

A (83:13)

Man, that's good. Yeah. I. Something that's really been resonating with me is just this concept of. As I've interviewed folks with young kids and teenage kids and then empty nesters and then grandparents, One thing I've been trying to figure out is what does it look like to create a. A youth environment, like a household environment, but then ultimately, that creates stability so that your kids want to come back home when they leave. Right.

B (83:44)

Yep.

A (83:45)

Because, you know, we know a lot of families who seem at the surface to have good households and successful kids and all of these things, and then when they leave, there's not much of a relationship with the parents anymore. Yeah. For whatever reason, maybe they were pushed too hard or they were, you know what. Whatever. Right. And that's one of the things I'm really trying to focus on right now is like, man, what can I be doing so that my kids want to have a relationship with me when they leave? 100%, you know, and this. This saying that keeps coming back to me is, you know, love is spelled T, M, E. You have to make. If you don't make time for your kids now, they won't make time for you later.

B (84:31)

Yep.

A (84:31)

Right. And that's just incredibly convicting for me. And that's kind of what I'm sitting with constantly, is I have to make time for them now if I expect them to make time for me later.

B (84:45)

And quality time.

A (84:46)

Yeah.

B (84:47)

On top of that. So I. I would. Man, I'm. I am deathly afraid that I've wasted a lot of time.

A (84:53)

Yeah.

B (84:53)

Not spending time so that they want to spend time with me later. But the reality is, like, I want to be present, but I want it to be quality as well.

A (85:01)

Yeah.

B (85:01)

So a lot of times I'm going, I'm doing this. I'm here, I'm here, I'm here. But, man, if they don't. If they don't value what you're doing while you're there, you're just there.

A (85:09)

Yeah.

B (85:10)

It doesn't really matter. And so I asked Katie the same thing the other day. I was like, hey, at the end of this life, and I ponder life a lot, but into this life, like, how are you going to know whether or not it was successful? What's going to be the key driver for you to go, yeah, that was a successful life. And she goes, man, if I'm 90 years old and my kids still want to Come and hang out with me.

A (85:27)

Yeah.

B (85:28)

Okay. I got a lot of catching up to do, man.

A (85:30)

Yeah. So, hey, I know I said that was going to be the last question, but you just reminded me of something I want to make sure we talk about just real quick. This has been fun to explore with a couple of the other dads. Family vacation.

B (85:43)

Yep.

A (85:43)

You guys do. We're kind of similar in this. We. We do big road trips. You guys do big road trips. Just real quick. Whitney and I, I don't know that we'll ever figure out. Maybe it constantly changes as your kids progress, but one of the things that we kind of wrestle with is success, quote, unquote, successful family trips.

B (86:08)

Right.

A (86:09)

And it's the balance of planning, but also space to be spontaneous.

B (86:17)

Yep.

A (86:18)

So my question to you is really just like, could you just share with me what have you guys found to be successful when you do your family trips from a structure standpoint? You know, do you. Do you guys have y' all figured out, like, for you guys, what works really well and what doesn't work really well? Like, just whatever you want to say there?

B (86:39)

Yep. No, we're still figuring it out. And in. The reality is that I'm going to go back to that saying, and we got to be a constant student of my kiddos and my spouse because we're all changing. And what we did in our camping trips six years ago, it's not the same as what we did. And if it was, like, they wouldn't enjoy it. And so we're constantly, like, pushing the envelope and going, like, are they old enough to take that 10 mile hike? I don't know. Let's. Let's just try and see, you know, And. And so we're. We're. We're constantly trying to figure out what is new. Now there's things that we try and they go. And we. We go, yeah, we're not doing that again. That was awful. That was. But the reality is, is, man, and I'll say to you again, like, just don't quit. Yeah, go, go. Number one, you know, have a goal. Go on family vacations. Number two, make a plan. But number three, freaking execute the plan. Go do the thing. And. And who cares if it fails? The reality is, man, like, y' all are going to fail together. And there's going to be some good stuff that comes out of it, and there's going to be some not so good stuff. But we're just trying our best to create memorable moments with our kids, even if that's trials and adversity that were. That are. That are the most memorable at the time. But it's going to come with the good and the bad. But we hadn't figured it out, but. But we're not quitters either.

A (87:56)

Yeah.

B (87:56)

Yeah.

A (87:57)

It's funny. I'll just kind of close with this. We. As I think about my most memorable family, like vacations, it's almost the strongest memories in my mind. Or when something went terribly wrong. You know what I mean? And I don't mean that like, in a traumatic way. I just mean if we went to Disney World for three days, I'm sure that in that 72 period hour period of time, I had a ton of fun.

B (88:27)

Yeah.

A (88:27)

But what I remember is, like, I don't know, my mom tripping and falling on something and almost breaking her arm.

B (88:36)

Yeah.

A (88:36)

You know what I mean?

B (88:37)

Yeah.

A (88:37)

And it's funny just because then we had to figure out, like, where's the first aid station? Let's get mom doctored up and all of those things. And, you know, you just never know what your kids are going to hang on to. But to your point, the trials, the adversity, it's. It's the core memories that are important. So.

B (88:56)

Yeah.

A (88:57)

All right, well, hey, as we wrap up, just to those of you that are listening, the number one thing you can do to support us right now is just share this content with other people that you think might benefit from it. It's the whole reason we're doing this. We're just trying to create a community where dads can get together and talk about life, what's working and what's not working. And the biggest way you can support us right now is just sharing this with people that you think might be interested. So appreciate you listening, like, subscribe all those things on whatever platforms. And David, thank you so much for coming on, man.

B (89:31)

It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

A (89:33)

All right, brother. See you. See you, Sam.