Positivity is Punk Rock w/ David Pakman | TMT #125

Summary

Episode Summary: "Positivity is Punk Rock w/ David Pakman | TMT #125"

Introduction

In this lively episode of Too Many Tabs with Pearlmania500, hosts Pearlmania500 and her husband navigate a blend of satirical humor and insightful political discourse. Released on April 27, 2025, this episode titled "Positivity is Punk Rock" features a special guest, David Pakman, a prominent YouTuber and political commentator. The hosts adeptly balance light-hearted banter with serious discussions, making it an engaging listen for both regular listeners and newcomers.

---

Satirical Commentary on Political Figures

The episode kickstarts with Pearlmania500 humorously critiquing Vice President J.D. Vance. The hosts create an exaggerated narrative suggesting that Vance's actions have had catastrophic consequences, including the fictional demise of the Pope.

• Host 1 [01:22]: "JD Vance is a historical failure. He's probably the worst vice president we've ever had in the history of this nation."

This satirical segment continues as the hosts mock Vance's diplomatic endeavors and policy decisions, painting him as an ineffectual and unpopular figure. They weave a fictional story where Vance's missteps lead to absurd outcomes, such as diplomatic blunders in Greenland and failed negotiations with Ukraine.

• Host 2 [02:28]: "We still got TikTok, but we don't got a deal."

The humor peaks when they joke about Vance's failed interactions with the Pope, culminating in the fictitious death of Pope Francis, humorously renamed "Pope Dennis."

• Host 1 [05:50]: "Pope Francis is now Pope Dennis."

This segment serves as a satirical critique of political incompetence and its exaggerated impacts, setting a humorous yet critical tone for the episode.

---

Personal Anecdotes and Research Mishaps

Switching gears, the hosts share personal stories that add a relatable and light-hearted dimension to the episode. Pearlmania500 recounts a humorous mishap involving deviled eggs intended for an Easter brunch.

• Host 2 [09:06]: "I made my usual two dozen deviled eggs. It wasn't even that many minimum. And then one of the trays falls out of the fridge, splats across the floor."

This anecdote highlights the everyday chaos and the unpredictability of life, providing a breather from the intense political discussions. The hosts laugh over the disaster, emphasizing the imperfections and challenges they face while balancing podcasting with personal responsibilities.

---

Interview with David Pakman

The core of the episode is an in-depth interview with David Pakman, who brings his expertise on media, politics, and the current socio-political climate. The conversation delves into several critical topics:

1. Naturalized Citizenship and Border Policies

   Pakman discusses his recent concerns about the treatment of naturalized citizens at U.S. borders, referencing his video that has recently gained traction.

   • David Pakman [15:26]: "We've seen the detention of some naturalized citizens. Not deportations, not arrests, but making life miserable for hours at border crossings."

   He expresses fears about the increasing scrutiny and harassment of individuals with differing political views, emphasizing the need for preparedness and legal support.

2. Media Literacy and Opinion vs. News

   The discussion shifts to media literacy, highlighting the blurred lines between news and opinion in today's media landscape.

   • David Pakman [22:30]: "I'm always trying to just be honest with my audience as to how worried I really am."

   Pakman emphasizes the importance of maintaining journalistic integrity and distinguishing factual reporting from opinion-based content, a challenge faced by many modern content creators.

3. Impact of Social Media and Opinion Leaders

   Pakman critiques the role of social media influencers like Joe Rogan, examining their shift towards more extreme political stances over time.

   • David Pakman [37:44]: "It was surprisingly normal in every way. I enjoyed the conversation. He seemed genuinely curious about the ideas."

   He reflects on how influencers maintain their platforms despite shifts in their political alignments and the implications this has for public discourse.

4. Pakman's Book: "The Echo Machine"

   The hosts delve into Pakman's latest work, "The Echo Machine: How Right Wing Extremism Created a Post-Truth America," exploring the roots of right-wing extremism and its effects on American society.

   • David Pakman [53:05]: "I just don't know, but none of them point me to we should stop replicating Homo sapiens."

   Pakman discusses the historical parallels of authoritarianism and the challenges of combating misinformation in a polarized media environment.

5. Future of Leadership and Term Limits

   A significant portion of the conversation addresses the age and term limits of current political leaders, questioning whether prolonged tenures represent a disconnect from the evolving needs of the population.

   • David Pakman [53:57]: "I think it's really kind of a case by case basis sort of thing."

   The hosts and Pakman explore the necessity of grooming successors and the implications of having aging leadership that may not align with the younger generation's perspectives and needs.

6. Antinatalism and Future Generations

   The episode touches on the controversial topic of antinatalism—the philosophical stance against procreation due to concerns about the future of humanity and the planet.

   • David Pakman [60:31]: "If there's no more kids, there won't be anyone around to fix them."

   Pakman articulates his opposition to antinatalism, arguing for responsible parenting and optimism in addressing global challenges.

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Notable Quotes

Throughout the episode, several quotes encapsulate the hosts' and Pakman's perspectives:

• Host 1 [17:41]: "The paranoia that I've had about this type of stuff happening is finally kind of hit here and hit it coming more and more mainstream to the public."

• Host 2 [46:24]: "There are two problems: low media literacy among the audience and the perpetuation of bias disguised as independence."

• David Pakman [61:03]: "If you do care about personal responsibility, it seems irresponsible to create a bunch of problems and then be like, we'll stop having kids and not fix any of them either."

These quotes highlight the episode's focus on media influence, political extremism, and societal responsibilities.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the interview wraps up, Pearlmania500 and her husband reflect on the enlightening conversation with David Pakman. They express appreciation for the insights gained and the importance of maintaining hope and optimism amidst political and social turmoil.

• Host 1 [67:04]: "Thank you so much and thank you, Mrs. P, for stepping in and taking me out of my doom spiral."

The hosts encourage listeners to engage with Pakman's work and continue the discourse on creating a more informed and resilient society.

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Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with casual banter between the hosts, celebrating their progress in podcasting and hinting at future content. While the episode began with satirical humor, it seamlessly transitioned into a profound and thought-provoking discussion with David Pakman, offering listeners a balanced mix of entertainment and enlightenment.

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Access and Further Information

Listeners interested in exploring more about David Pakman and his work can find him across various social media platforms under the handle David Pakman Show on TikTok and other channels. Additionally, Pearlmania500 invites fans to support their podcast through Patreon and stay tuned for upcoming episodes filled with diverse and engaging content.

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This episode of Too Many Tabs with Pearlmania500 masterfully intertwines humor with critical analysis, making it a standout entry in their podcast series. Whether you're seeking a laugh or deep political insights, this episode delivers both with finesse.

Transcript

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[Host 1]

We might have some new fans here tuning into the show for the first time ever, because we interviewed David Pakman. He's a YouTube sensation with a big following who listens to him for news and opinion across the Internet. And he and I have a great interview talking about kids, talking about the state of the world, talking about what it's like to do political content in this whole environment.

[Host 2]

Yikes.

[Host 1]

But before we get to that, we have to address a situation. We have to address a pope situation. Oops. Did Vice President J.D. vance kill the Pope? Or did we touch a little bit too close to the sun when we blasphemed the patron saint of content creators? Find out today on too many times. Remember to smile. JD Vance is a historical failure. He's probably the worst vice president we've ever had in the history of this nation.

[David Pakman]

And.

[Host 1]

And I want to be very clear about that. Okay? J.D. vance, this week, did he kill the Pope? Now, I've talked about this on a few different places, like TikTok and others. I do not believe that J.D. vance killed the Pope, but I do believe that if the Pope hadn't met J.D. vance, that the Pope would still be alive.

[Host 2]

Absolutely.

[Host 1]

And the reason why I believe this is because I can look at J.D. vance's recent history as vice president and show you that. That everything he is doing is making the world so much worse. Okay, let's go ahead and start out. Let's go ahead, look at Greenland.

[Host 2]

Okay, let's look at Greenland.

[Host 1]

Yeah. So Greenland. The nation of Greenland.

[Host 2]

Our. Our future state. Right.

[Host 1]

Future state.

[Host 2]

That's what I was told.

[Host 1]

J.D. vance went to go visit it.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Now, the thing is, is J.D. vance wasn't supposed to visit.

[Host 2]

Yeah. It was just supposed to be his wife.

[Host 1]

It's supposed to be his wife. And their whole idea was we'll have JD's wife, Usha go to Greenland. She'll go meet a Greenland family. Right. And they'll they'll welcome her into their homes because she's so nice. And then she can use that as propaganda to conquer Greenland.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Didn't work. Everybody said no. So they're like, well, we'll send J.D. vance. They sent J.D. vance.

[Host 2]

Worse.

[Host 1]

Everybody hated them. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Of course.

[Host 1]

Everybody said, who's this weirdo? And then the person who runs the base.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

In Greenland sent out a base wide email being like, listen, we got through that and then they had to fire that commander. Right. So there's that. Then there's the Ukraine negotiations between the Russian Ukraine war. Right. Okay.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And Vladimir Zelinsky comes to the White House. They were supposed to sign a document that day. What happened? JD Vance goes, you haven't said thank you.

[David Pakman]

You didn't say thank you.

[Host 1]

You're not even wearing your suit. And then that all blew up.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Right. Then we get into the TikTok deal. Because at one point, do you know that no Trump put J.D. vance in charge of the, the TikTok deal.

[Host 2]

Oh, he doesn't even have any followers. How can he charge a TikTok?

[Host 1]

Exactly. But they, but this is the thing. Presidents, when they have a big old stinker on their hands, they always say, I'm going to put the vice president charge of this one. Give him a chance to show you how good they are going to hand the TikTok deal over to JD Vance. And what happened?

[Host 2]

Still got TikTok.

[Host 1]

We still got TikTok, but we don't got a deal. And then the trade war.

[Host 2]

Oh, yeah, well, we're totally winning that. Right?

[Host 1]

Yeah. Well, part of the reason why the trade war is going so terribly is because J.D. vance during an interview said that the Chinese people were peasants.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

He said, why would we borrow money from Chinese peasants just to borrow the goods. To buy the goods from those same Chinese peasants. And they stitched the hell out of that.

[Host 2]

Oh my God. And they made some crazy TikTok.

[Host 1]

They made the memes of the same. They even asked you, J.D. vance, where are you gonna get eyeliner from, bud?

[Host 2]

Oh my God, they did. They said, we make the eyeliner here, babes.

[Host 1]

We make the eyeliner you put on before you grab that wig. Then he dropped the football trophy. Had the Ohio.

[Host 2]

Oh, right.

[Host 1]

Football team.

[Host 2]

He broke there.

[Host 1]

And he picked up a two part trophy. Didn't. Had no idea. Dropped it. That's a sign. That's a sign from the. The holy relic dropped on. And then, then he demands to meet the Pope. He flies all the way to Rome for Easter. Service J.D. vance, famously, to Mrs. Pearl Mania's chagrin. J.D. vance is what?

[Host 2]

Catholic.

[Host 1]

An adult Catholic convert.

[Host 2]

Adult convert.

[Host 1]

Yep.

[Host 2]

If you didn't go to Catholic school. Well, listen, I don't want to. I don't want to start.

[Host 1]

We've. You've been on this a lot.

[Host 2]

I. It's not my fault. It keeps coming up.

[Host 1]

And so he goes there, he demands a meeting with the Pope, and the Pope's like, hey, listen, why don't you be my number two? Yeah, talk to my number.

[Host 2]

Your number two.

[Host 1]

Your number two.

[Host 2]

Shit.

[Host 1]

What?

[Host 2]

You said number two.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I did. And so they said that. And then finally, after enough huffing and humming, yeah, the Pope's like, fine, I'll sit here in my wheelchair and I'll.

[Host 2]

Meet JD he demanded a sick man come from bed rest, and he did.

[Host 1]

And then the Pope was like, well, while I'm up, Imma give a homily at Easter, too, yo.

[Host 2]

A banger.

[Host 1]

And it was a good homily. Pope Francis got up, was like, hey, there's a lot of people denigrating migrants. There's a lot of people spreading wars and lies and deceit, and they're doing all of this in the name of my guy.

[Host 2]

Nope, he said false.

[Host 1]

He said false. Don't do that. And then the Pope died. Yeah, the Pope died. Pope Francis is now Pope Dennis.

[Host 2]

No, that's not how that works.

[Host 1]

That's not how it works. He's still Pope Francis.

[Host 2]

Named after Assisi, a good saint.

[Host 1]

He's named after a sissy.

[Host 2]

Yeah, St. Francis of Assisi.

[Host 1]

Oh, Sisi.

[Host 2]

Whatever.

[Host 1]

If you say Francis a sissy. Mm, that's a different thing.

[Host 2]

No, Francis of Assisi.

[Host 1]

It's Assisi. Okay, all right. You can't say named after a sissy. It's just. Is so. It's such a crazy line.

[Host 2]

I just got. I got hoagie mouth.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I know.

[Host 2]

There's no getting around it.

[Host 1]

You are from Philadelphia.

[Host 2]

I went to Catholic school. They taught me St. Francis of Assisi. What am I supposed to do exactly?

[Host 1]

You went to Catholic school. And then what happened at the same exact time last week? Around the same exact time?

[Host 2]

Well, here's what happened. I wanted tell you what happened.

[Host 1]

You tell me what happened.

[Host 2]

Okay. We spent time and we researched.

[Host 1]

Yeah, we researched.

[Host 2]

We researched an episode about saints because we found out about a new Catholic saint, the patron saint of influencers y. So we thought, hey, you know, Blessed Carlo Acutus. We say, you know, it'll be fun. Let's make an episode about this. Because It's. It's funny and it's a good time and we can talk about the lore of some saints and the dark, weird, the martyrdom of it all.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And then during that episode, during that episode, while we were recording, we got technical failures because we were cursed upon by the patron saint of influencers who said, no content for you.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

How dare you besmirch my good name.

[Host 1]

He said, the camera is not going to record any video, but luckily you run audio backup for 30 minutes.

[Host 2]

Gotcha. And then after we hit post. Yeah, and got it. I made a little promo edit.

[Host 1]

Yeah, got it all up.

[Host 2]

How good you went to sleep that night? Felt good. Saw some nice comments. Look how funny.

[Host 1]

Te.

[Host 2]

Hahaha. Woke up and got the note that the. The Pope had passed away.

[Host 1]

The Pope was dead. The Pope was dead. We had recorded that episode, like, and.

[Host 2]

Then people started commenting that it was our fault.

[Host 1]

Well, the other thing that people have started commenting was. Oh, I came to this because I wanted to hear your take on the Pope's. On the Pope dying. And it was like, baby, we record this on Thursday. Yeah, the Pope died on Sunday. You're watching this on Monday. Like, there's. There's a thing that we have to. We. We record these on Thursdays because you can tell the day we record. Because if you go to our Patreon Pearl Mania 500 net, you'll see our Patreon exclusive podcast called the Warm Up. And the warmup is always recorded directly before we record the show because we want to get our voices right. We want to make sure that we remember to smile.

[Host 2]

Mostly we just don't talk to each other all day, so we have to remember how to talk to each other instead of saying things like, do you know where the blueberries are?

[Host 1]

That's part of it.

[Host 2]

Where's the juice?

[Host 1]

And so basically what happened was this. We made an episode in time for Easter talking about Catholic saints, you know, having a little fun.

[Host 2]

We thought the SEO would be good.

[Host 1]

We thought we'd be good Search engine.

[Host 2]

Optimization, because it was like, oh, it's Easter 420. Blaze it.

[Host 1]

And then what happened?

[Host 2]

You know, I'll tell you what the real catastrophe was.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I don't mean this to take away from the catastrophe of losing Pope Francis.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

A good Pope. I would say the worst thing that happened for me personally. Can I tell them about it?

[Host 1]

Go and tell them. We have. Okay. We had family over.

[Host 2]

We. Yeah, we. I hosted for Easter a nice Easter brunch. And as part of that, the. The Day before Easter, I have to make deviled eggs because you. There needs to be eggs. Deviled eggs. Even though I had to take out a second mortgage to afford all those eggs.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And they were bad quality eggs.

[Host 2]

I know they were. They were bad quality eggs. So really hard to peel. Yeah. So I made my usual. Two dozen. That's right. Two dozen deviled eggs. Minimal minimum over they eat. It wasn't even that many minimum. You got to make two dozen. And I made them. Took all the time and effort.

[Host 1]

And what recipe did you use?

[Host 2]

My recipe.

[Host 1]

You're the recipe that people can find on our Patreon 500. There's audio and a PDF vibing out with the food. Idiot. We made a whole episode about where.

[Host 2]

I teach Alex verbally how to make them. And then I also provided the PDF for you to print out and follow.

[Host 1]

There you go.

[Host 2]

Or look at it in your iPad like me. And so I make these deviled eggs, I put them in the fridge, and then I'm going about my day. I wanted to make, like, a beet and goat cheese salad. I made some other things. And I opened the fridge door, get something. And one of the trays of deviled eggs falls out of the fridge, splats across the entire floor. Deviled eggs everywhere. Not one made it everywhere. Everywhere. The dog intrigued. The dog said, hey, what's going on over there? Me. In a fit of rage. It was the fifth thing to go wrong that day. Yeah, it was a bad day that Saturday before Easter. And I. It was the. It was the straw on the camel's back of me just weaving a web of profanity that's probably still floating above the kitchen at this point in time. Because then I had to throw them all away, mop the floor, get the deviled egg out of the dog's mouth. Because I was like, you can't eat this many deviled eggs, dog. And then start again. And I had to go to the grocery store and buy more eggs.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 2]

So I need you to know that every time a family member ate what I said, they're good, aren't they? You like that egg, don't you?

[Host 1]

She really did. And they were good. Yeah, they were right amount. Paprika. Also this week, for those of you guys just joining us, we also had a episode of the Story Report that we just dropped. And we want you guys all to check it out. It's Harriet Tubman Live in Concert, a novel by Bob the Drag Queen. And then we even made a TikTok promo for it.

[Host 2]

And Bob, he commented on it.

[Host 1]

Commented.

[Host 2]

He commented.

[Host 1]

So there might be some tie in on that soon. But yeah, we got that right here. Harriet Tubman Live in Concert, a novel by Bob the Drag Queen. It's up on YouTube and wherever you guys listen to this podcast. And now Mrs. P, we're gonna do this episode a little bit different.

[David Pakman]

What?

[Host 2]

So I don't like change.

[Host 1]

Okay? You and people in Internet comments. But we are bringing on a interview guest.

[Host 2]

What?

[Host 1]

Yeah, we are bringing on a guest which I'm sure you guys noticed by reading the title of this episode.

[Host 2]

In the title.

[Host 1]

It probably is in the title. But we brought on David Pakman.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And we just finished the interview with him. We had a really great interview where he and I talked about making content political based content on the Internet. Talking about just kind of the general of like the of it all. Yeah, and you pulled me out of my doomer spiral a couple times. It was a really, really good interview and so really fun time. And so you guys sit back and relax. You can hear all about David Pakman. And David is on a prolific YouTuber and he is all over the Internet at David Pacman.

[Host 2]

He just had a book come out.

[Host 1]

Yeah, he just had a book came out. His book is the Echo Machine How Right Wing Extremism created a post Truth America. We had a really great time talking to him and you're gonna have a really great time listening to them. So here we go. Without further ado, let's. Let's go and throw to me and David.

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[Host 1]

And we're back. We're here with our first guest who is not sitting in the room with us. This is our first remote guest.

[Host 2]

That's right.

[Host 1]

In the.

[Host 2]

Living in the future.

[Host 1]

I know we're here. And we. I feel like we have a good one. It's a pretty big get. We're here with David Pakman. David, thank you so much for joining us today.

[David Pakman]

Thank you. No, I'm. I'm your fan. I'm glad to be here.

[Host 1]

Oh, really? That feels good.

[Host 2]

I went to guys that yell.

[Host 1]

I think it's. I think it's. Slowly more and more people are not only getting into guys that yell. I think more and more people are becoming guys that yellow yell. But we're excited to have you here. I met David. We. We met online. We became mutuals on TikTok a while ago, and then we actually met in person at the White House, of all places, at a Christmas party, which was.

[David Pakman]

Which is crazy because I'm Jewish. It's a weird place to meet.

[Host 1]

I'm. So. Am I. So it was just two Jews at a Christmas party at the White House trying to figure out how the fuck we got there. Yeah, it was. It was a weird moment, but it was. It was very nice and it was. Thank you so much for reaching out and. And wanting to come on the show. We. I want to talk to you a little bit first. You just had a video just go massive in the last couple days. And that video was about that you said you've been warned. Don't leave the country. And you covered in there how you're a naturalized citizen and. And everything else. I just want you just to talk a little bit about that and kind of your fears because there have been some similar feelers I'm having. Even though I'm not naturalized, I was a born citizen here in the United States. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[David Pakman]

Yeah. I mean, I'm from Argentina. I've been a citizen for more than 20 years. In a normal world, this is never something that would be a concern at all. But we've kind of seen, like, the line creep from we're going to go after so called criminal illegals to we're going to go after anybody who's undocumented to we're going to go after people with visas, people with permanent residency. And now we've started to see the detention of some naturalized citizens. Not deportations, not arrests, but just really making your life miserable for five, six, seven hours at a border crossing. And in the wake of that, I got emails from a couple of immigration attorneys that are in my audience who said, listen, I don't want to be hyperbolic and say you're going to be sent back to Argentina and stripped of citizenship. I don't think that's going to happen. But it might be unpleasant at the border given the focus that seems to be growing on those with views contrary to that of the current administration, combined with now targeting or at least harassing to some degree naturalized citizens. I'm not saying don't go necessarily, but if you do have a plan and know exactly which lawyer you would call if you start to be hassled at the border.

[Host 1]

Yeah, no, it's, it's been a really terrifying thing actually. My parents told me because my parents are both older, they're AARP members. AARP is now putting out six steps to take to secure your data and digital devices when crossing the United States border. Like, that's AARP. This is for people who are retirement age 60 plus or 55 plus. They're like, that's how normalized it's already gotten in the police state, feeling about it. And I was really struck when I watched your video because it's also been a thing that I've been kind of terrified about. Back in 2006 when George W. Bush was president and I had a third shift job and, and was partying a little bit too much. You know, there was times where I thought maybe if a helicopter was flying a little too low, they might have read my MySpace blog. But now being a content creator, especially one that's been the political space for the last couple of years, and I know you've been doing it for a long time too, there's like, part of me is like, oh, if I'm not on a list, did I, there's got to be. I have to be on a list, right?

[Host 2]

Like, I think there's quite a few.

[Host 1]

Lists, there's quite a few that are going around. Especially when knowing that like some of the people that I've talked about who are now in higher levels of the administration, I'm thinking like the date. Right guy. You know who I'm talking about?

[David Pakman]

I do know exactly who you're talking about. Yeah. And you know, there's this weird thing because on the one hand, I don't want to make myself the main character of anything. The idea, it's sort of counter to my personality to think anyone in the Trump administration at any level is thinking about David Pakman. Right. Like, my personality resists that idea. And then at the same time, the official Trump rapid response account has published some stuff from my show. And, you know, it's like it just seems to be all creeping a little closer than maybe would make me comfortable.

[Host 1]

Yeah, no, I understand that my narcissism will get me though, because, like, somebody with only like 50,000 TikTok followers, like, and this guy is the leader of the. I'd be like, wait, whoa, whoa, I just broke three mil. Like, that was. That'll be the. Subconsciously will be the part for me on that a little bit. You talked recently. You have a book that just came out, the Echo Machine. How Right Wing Extremism Created a post, Truth America. I haven't had a chance to read it, but I did see recently you're talking about somebody reached out to Amazon about it.

[David Pakman]

Oof. This is a whole other can of worms. So we. Someone who appears to work at Amazon aws, which is their cloud server wing, posted a screenshot of something that is consistent with their internal communications sort of like format. Right. So could it be a copy? It could be a copy, but it's someone with deep knowledge of AWS with a. With a screenshot that's consistent with what they look like. Posted an email that essentially said to move forward on renewing our contract for cloud services. These are some books we want not to be carried. And my book is one of you know, a dozen or so books that were on that list. For now, the book is still on Amazon. It's not been removed from Kindle. It's not been removed as a. As a hardcover book. We still are told we have no reason to doubt the authenticity of this. We saw the Hegseth DOD cancel some consulting and cloud storage contracts with other companies over political reasons. It all kind of fits.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

Could it be some elaborate ruse? I mean, maybe, but it's feeling less and less likely.

[Host 1]

I don't think it is solely because we've seen them go after so many different people and organizations that even have glancing touches of opposition against the Trump administration. I'm thinking specifically about all the different law firms who have been pointed to where they're like, well, you have clients who have sued us. And so that's why when I, When I saw that it would have to be. I don't. The biggest thing with this, with this administration is they're very dumb and they're very lazy. And I don't see them having that type of level of being able to go into fake internal Amazon communications and internals and then going down here and creating a fake list and all these different things and then uploading it to a subreddit to get into this side, like, little side thing. It was one of those. It was a. There's been a couple things like that where it's. It's been. There is the chilling effect. But then also at the same time, I've had almost a sense of relief that the paranoia that I've had about this type of stuff happening is finally kind of hit here and hit. And it's coming more and more mainstream to the public. Right.

[David Pakman]

That's super interesting. Yeah. Because, you know, one of the things I've. I always try to do on my show is keep the alarmism correctly tuned to what's happening. Right. Yeah. So sometimes people will get mad and they'll go, david, you don't really think Trump's gonna run in 2028. And it's like, you know, I kind of don't right now. I just. I don't maybe. But I'm not like, oh, this guy's running in 2028. So I don't wanna go overboard with Trump will try to run if I start to see more signs. I saw that now there's 2028. Hats out. But I think that they're. They're just to troll people.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

I'll tell you when I see it. But some people go, you're not being alarmist enough in other areas. Sometimes it's like, oh, you're being too alarmist. When I said, you know, the administration is getting closer to independent media. They're slowly getting closer, closer, closer. And then maybe there it was actually me who was appropriately alarmist when it comes to that. So it's hard to gauge exactly, but I'm always trying to just be honest with my audience as to how worried I really am.

[Host 1]

I try when I'm making TikToks, I try to especially talk about things. I try to only talk about things that have happened or that if there, if there's an executive order or if there's a law that's passed, then we can talk about what will happen from that But I don't like to. To do the. Oh, because he wore this bro. Because. Because Melania wore this brooch at this date on this specific dinner that can. I'm like, okay, we're getting a little bit too tarot cardi, right? And there's some things on that side of that that, like, kind of get me. But I've. I've felt for a very long time, going all the way back to the Bush years and of, like, the encroachment of kind of how the. Right. Especially the movement. There was a. I wish I could remember his name. There was a CBS correspondent who wrote a book way back in, like, 2004, and it was about the fracturing of communications and about news in general. And he was really focused on cable news and about how with Fox coming in, you know, with cnn, MSNBC and Fox, like, we were all beginning to live in that truthiness. The idea of Stephen Colbert and that I'm sure you talk about in your book of where we can all stare at the exact same blade of grass and three organizations are saying it's green, and the other one shows up, says, actually it's a little yellow. And then suddenly we start this whole fight where we can't even agree it's grass anymore because nobody's touching it. And the. The big thing that I have realized is, like, that book was prescient, but now we're broken up even more. So. I have a friend of mine I first heard about you. I want to say it was 2018, maybe 2019. A buddy of mine started regularly sending me your clips, and I was just like, I don't know who this guy is, but I guess he's some guy. I don't. I didn't really know anything about your background, but, like, you came on, you were very professional in the way you spoke and with your setup and everything. And I was like, yeah, I grew. I, like, sent it back to my. I was like, yeah, that's exactly what you and I have been saying, like, the entire time. But in that realization, for. For me on social media and for you on YouTube and all these other different content creators, like, we can be huge to such a small audience in the grand scheme of things. And I think what. It's only in these moments, I think with Kilmar Abrego, where you can see a lot of people get in these focus moments. And I want to tie this back into your book. When you're seeing this stuff, especially on the right. Are there flashpoints that are happening over there that we aren't even seeing on the left. Like, I'm thinking about, like, that squirrel, you know what I mean? Like these weird, like, moments.

[David Pakman]

I don't even know the squirrel you're talking about.

[Host 1]

You don't know about Peanut the squirrel?

[David Pakman]

No.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God. All right, so there was, okay, you know how we thought the election was about fascism because we thought, hey, Donald Trump's gonna come in, he's gonna shred this constitution, he's gonn in camps and yeah, they're gonna target trans people. It wasn't about that for some people. There was an Instagram influencer, had a squirrel named Peanut. And this squirrel, I don't know, like, I think he's in New York City and like, he didn't have, like the right license or something. And the squirrel kept as a pet. To be kept as a pet. It's a wild animal. And the squirrel bit a cop.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Because the cops were, for some reason, I think they were swatted or something.

[Host 2]

Or they were trying to arrest the squirrel for dui, something like that.

[Host 1]

And the squirrel bit a cop and because of rabies testing, they had to put the squirrel down. And this was one of the final distractions on the right where you started to see Rudy Giuliani started posting about the squirrel. Don Jr. Started posting about the squirrel.

[David Pakman]

This does ring a bell.

[Host 1]

Yeah, all these. But it became one of those things to distract from everything else going on. So I think the same thing of what they've been doing with trans athletes, you know, every time Trump's tariffs have, you know, destroyed another whole area of retirement or leading to another shelf being empty, they'll point to, well, this. Did you see this? This female athlete, she knelt instead of fencing a trans athlete. And they're like, all right, well, we're going to cover this for five weeks.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And we'll bring this up. Have you been, have you been seeing anything like this that maybe I haven't noticed out there? There are other ones or is this just kind of the general play?

[David Pakman]

Well, no, I think that. So there's two things. I think that analysis as applied to the right wing media that exists essentially to Prop Maga up is an absolutely accurate analysis. You know, if there was a whole period of time, the first, the first three stock market collapse days, Fox didn't even talk about it. They only talked about it on that crazy day where stocks went up 10% after being down 16% and said, what a great stock market day. So I think on the media side, that's absolutely the case. I am skeptical when people talk about the White House is doing A to distract from B to distract from C only because they're terrible at this and they don't seem disciplined nor coherent enough to actually pull off things with that level of calculation. Like, I'll give you another example. Someone wrote to me, and at this point, I don't remember if it was Liberation Day was planned for April 2 to distract from the illegal deportations or whether the illegal deportations were meant to distract from the failures. It almost doesn't matter. And my reaction was I don't think they're competent enough. I just don't think so.

[Host 1]

Oh, I don't think it's actually the White House directly. I think it is. There's orgs. I'm thinking about guys like Turning Point. I'm thinking of guys like Jack Posobiek and Steve Bannon and others. I think that there are players who get funding in the overall, like the overall MAGA machine. And it's not necessarily the White House because the White House is actually there. I would actually want to thank the White House Instagram and social media team because they have made such a great case against the Trump White House. I mean, when you go into ASMR videos of deporting people people, when you do the, the Studio Ghibli AI where they showed the, the lady crying like they, the person that they were arresting was a accused fentanyl dealer who was found guilty and all these different things, they had a picture of her. They didn't have to make a Studio Ghibli AI. Like, they just keep, they. They're so brain rotted. I think from being inside these 4chan memes and being inside of Elon's Twitter for so long that I think they think that the general public has moved in a direction that most people haven't.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And I think that there's, I think, I think what you're, you're saying though, about like not leaning too much into the distraction of. The distraction of distraction and just like actually just acknowledging what's happening in the moment. I've been, I've been watching you more. I've been watching more Phil DeFranco and other people like on YouTube of just like cutting through and being like, this is what's actually happening today, I think is such a difficult thing to cover. And so I just, I'm really drawn to you kind of going into the distraction of the distraction side of things.

[David Pakman]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And the other thing that audiences really go for that.

[David Pakman]

The other thing you're Making me think of also is it's hard to cover just what's going on when there's so much crazy stuff going on. That's number one. But number two, we really are starting. The sort of thing we're seeing has significant historical parallels. And so I'm finding a lot of salience and saying, hey, you know what? If you look at 20th century authoritarians, we saw some themes. Telling the public that what they are seeing cannot be believed and that they are the ultimate sources of truth, attacking media outlets adversarial to them, starting to play games with who counts as a citizen, resident, person. All of these things, these do have historical precedent. And so I'm trying to find a balance between I'm not going to go out and say Trump is Hitler. I think that that is not conducive to getting my message across. But at the Same time, when seven of the eight things you saw from 20th century authoritarians are happening under Trump, I think it is important to give that historical context, too.

[Host 1]

There's a lot of stuff that can wreck your night's sleep. And I'm not even talking about the anxiety of scrolling your phone too late at you can have night sweats from it just being too hot here in the spring and you haven't put the air conditioner in. You can have back pain. Your partner, she could snore like a bear.

[Host 2]

Facts.

[Host 1]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

We like each other more. Honestly, the FL I've been having. Okay, I don't want to go too much into it, but let me just say, since we got the cooling top mattress with the good pillow top and it's a little bit firmer, so much of my vibes have changed. Honestly, Chill Daddy is bad.

[Host 2]

Chill Daddy.

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So not unlike other mattresses, Brooklyn Bedding and their entire facility is completely free of fiberglass. That's right, free of fiberglass. So you can rest easy knowing that your health is in good hand, sleep on your Brooklyn Bedding mattress for up to 120 nights. And if you don't love it, they'll help you return it. Or pick a different model. Go to BrooklynBetting.com and use our promo code. Too many at checkout to get 30% off site. Wide. This offer is not available anywhere else. You have to use our promo code on the very last page of checkout to get this discount. That's BrooklynBetting.com and use promo code too many for 30% off site wide. Or check those show notes for the hyperlink. I think he's closer to Napoleon iii and I'm gonna do an episode about that soon. Yeah, Louis, Napoleon is just. Just because there's that idea of. I think there's times with Trump where like, I knew January 6th was going to happen. I knew it was going to happen because I was at that point was very heavy into just monitoring right wing channels, whether it be on Facebook, Reddit, all these different places. It was very in the open. It was very clear. But the reason I knew it was gonna happen on January 6th is knowing that Trump is inherently lazy and his people are inherently lazy. Was. It was the last day. That was it. When I was looking at the calendar, like, well, I'm like, well, when is it done? Like officially? Because we all think of Election day of, oh, they'll call it on Election Day. I was like, well, no, I grew up with the Truman picture of him holding up Dewey beats Truman. I'm like, so it's not Election Day and then each state has to certify. And I was really nervous in 2021 that because we almost saw this happen, that there were. They would attack a specific state. If they were smart, they would have gone and picked a Pennsylvania. They would have picked a swing state and gone in and attacked that capitol and created a moment of chaos around.

[Host 2]

Don't tell them this.

[Host 1]

I'm gonna listen.

[Host 2]

I don't tell them this.

[Host 1]

I don't trust that they'll watch it.

[Host 2]

This is pretty far.

[Host 1]

It's pretty deep in the interview. We'll cut it from the clip that we try to put for the Cliff Farm. Okay. But I was really. And actually I talked some people. I talked to Malcolm Kenyatta, who is a Pennsylvania state rep, and he's actually one of the DNC vice chairs now. I talked to him about it and he said actually that there was. It was when they. Was it Minnesota. They were marching and they. Or Michigan, where the guys showed up with the AR15s over there.

[David Pakman]

I believe that was Michigan.

[Host 1]

Yeah. That was when they. That was finally. That overstep then was enough for the Pennsylvania State House and Pennsylvania State Senate to finally take seriously that guys might show up with guns that they then were like, well, maybe we'll have at least 10 state troopers here at all. Times we'll park some cars, well, maybe we'll put up a fence. Those type of things happen. So they hardened that target a little bit more. Before, again, the doors would have been unlocked. They're like, we'll make sure the doors are locked that day. And everybody has badges to get through. Like, we haven't faced this before, and we've come from a society that was so much more open that they created reasons to close it. But when I think back on these days of 21, I think there was a moment, I think the biggest danger of January 6th was that it felt very much like the conclusion of the movie. And I think that was enough for a lot of people to bookend those years, if that makes sense. Like especially 2020 and 21 and early 21, to the point where now, when looking at the tariffs, there's so many business leaders came forward, so many of them were like, I can't believe you would do this. And I'm like, he was doing it last time. He did this exact same thing. And I've started to realize from talking to people, especially here in a swing state like Pennsylvania and others, there's a lot of people who thought by reelecting Trump, we were gonna restart in January 21, 2017, and they didn't realize that actually we were setting the clock back to January 21, 2021. And like, we're picking up, we're just pretending the Biden years weren't there, except now we have AI. And I think that's the part that is really been difficult for a lot of people trying to understand what's going on.

[David Pakman]

I think that there's a lot of truth to that. And there was also some resistance. You know, we, some of Trump's right wing defenders would say, don't believe all the stuff that he says he's going to do. He's not really going to try to do a lot of that stuff. But there were also some people on the left who were assuming, I doubt he'll really try to do all of this stuff. And it was interesting because it sort of became like a horseshoe to this idea that there's just no way he's even going to try a lot of this stuff. And my analysis was, well, I think we have to look at term number one as the guidepost and then say, take away the additional election left to run, which disinhibits, add another 4, slash 8, depending on when you start the stopwatch of sort of like deterioration into radicalism and incoherence and the fact that last time he started with a few more people who were at least willing to not go along with everything, whereas this time it's like mostly just total loyalists right out of the gate. That concoction, that recipe together is one that does not suggest to me Trump won't do the things he's promising to do. We should assume he will try to do them and focus on do we have the guardrails to stop them, rather than just sort of hoping he's just talking and he's not really going to do it. And you know, it turned out Ben Shapiro was wrong and it turned out some of the people that stayed home or voted third party was wrong. A lot of people ended up wrong.

[Host 1]

Yeah, well, and one of the person people who specifically ended up wrong was Joe Rogan and the podcast network in general, the bros. I, I want to talk to you a little bit about that because you've been on Joe Rogan in the past. I saw, I know you were there in 2019. What was the you were doing?

[David Pakman]

I was on twice, I guess. 2019 and 2020, I guess. Or 2021.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah. So I, I've, I never really followed Joe Rogan too close. I was, I started out as a stand up comedy, so I knew who Joe Rogan was. I loved news radio. I did not like what was the show where people had to eat Kangaroo test.

[Host 2]

Fear Factor.

[Host 1]

Fear Factor. I wasn't a fan of Fear Factor, that type of stuff. But I only really knew that Joe Rogan did stand up because of a moment with between him and Carlos Mencia about arguing with each other about joke theft. So when we fast forward from that moment of me watching a video like early YouTube almost 20 years ago, where it's Joe Rogan being like, Carlos Mencia steals jokes from like young comics at open mics to now he's like on there promoting RFK and promoting vaccine denialism and all this different stuff. Like there's clearly been a huge swing in his personality. What was it like going on the show? I want to say pre Covid Rogan because I think there's a huge jump between the two.

[David Pakman]

It was surprisingly normal in every way. I don't know if that makes sense, but it was just sort of like this doesn't seem like someone who's been captured by an extreme element of the political world. At the time he was still in California. This was pre the Texas move, which I think kind of plays a role in terms of who he's surrounded himself with in the environment that he's kind of put himself in. I enjoyed the conversation. He seemed genuinely curious about the ideas. I had pushed back about some of them, but not others. The feedback was. Was pretty split in terms of, you know, even then he had a politically mixed audience, which is fine. Right. I mean, some people saw me on there and they liked what I had to say, and some people didn't. I got the sort of normal amount of extreme negative feedback, some of it associated with death threats that you would expect in front of an audience of that size. But it was like, I don't want to say unremarkable in the uninteresting sense, but it was sort of like completely normal environment in which to just. Just talk about my ideas.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Just going on a talk show.

[David Pakman]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I think. I think there's been. I think since COVID but also the Austin move. And I think the biggest thing, a bigger thing, a lot of people are missing is that. That massive Spotify deal. I think all of those things combined, like, just they. They end up changing your perception of the world. I think Covid scared him in a way from, like, seeing other comedians talk about it. Covid scared him away. And I think there was a lot of people had the first, like, face of mortality. I think there's a lot of people. A lot more people didn't think about that we can die because, like, oh, I take care of myself. I can do these things. You know, I. I especially him because.

[Host 2]

He'S obsessed with fitness. He's like, cold plunges, testosterone, working out.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Doing all those.

[Host 2]

And then the look in the face of, like, hey, you could just. You could just get sick.

[Host 1]

You could just. Somebody could cough at the wrong time.

[Host 2]

And your muscles won't save you.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And I think that, like, the not having control over the end, I think was the start of a break. And I think it wasn't just for Joe. I think it's for many people. When you look at people who might have even been anti Trump in 2016 or even going into 2020, like, since then.

[David Pakman]

You know what's interesting as you're saying this, I remember my appearance at the start of the pandemic, where this must have been probably, like, May or June. It was warm enough that you could run outside in the Northeast.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

And I said to him, you know, I think there's a mishmash of stuff here that makes sense and doesn't make sense. And I gave the example. Sometimes when people are out just running on the bike path, I see them wearing masks, and I'm just not sure about that one. Like, I'm on board with a lot of. I'm just not sure do. I don't know if we need the masks in that situation. And Rogan said, oh, no, think about it. You're huffing and puffing. And he was telling me, no, you do need the masks. Even outdoors. Which we later learned I just happened to stumble across something that I seem to be closer to the truth on that one than Rogan did. The outdoor contagion seems to be essentially nil. But it's so fascinating because it's bizarre to think that the conversation in 2020 was where he was telling me, no, no, no, you do need masks outside.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah. And I heard from people, especially in 2020, like PCR tests and all these other different things that he was having people do before they came to the studio. And he was taking all these precautions. And then it was like once he had it because he got it for like a minute and he, he got better. And once that happened, it was like, well, now I'm. I, I faced it. I faced this big. I had my factor with my fear and I faced it and it hit and I survived and now here I am. And so now I don't. I'm not afraid of it anymore.

[Host 2]

Yeah, he had survivorship bias.

[Host 1]

Yeah, exactly. And I think that, I think that played out with a lot of different people. I, I think the other thing that I'm. I'd like you to talk about a little bit, it's something that I was caught off guard by heavily post this election. Now we view. Now obviously post election people view Rogan as more right wing. He's having on more people. And it seems with that capture. But there was an interview with Don Lemon did on the street where. And I don't know if you've seen Don will just like he's walking his dogs. He just stopped random people.

[David Pakman]

Yes.

[Host 2]

We just got Don them loose these days.

[Host 1]

Don. It's just loose. Don in the street and he always has the dog. And I'm like, you're double dipping. You're double dipping. I know that. You're like, you grab the camera guy like, dog needs to pee. Let's do some man on the street interviews. But he interviewed a college kid on I don't know what campus he was on. And he said, what do you. Where do you get your news? This is again post election. And he said, oh, I get it from like a lot of different sources. I like non biased sources is like Steve Crowder and Tim Pool and like my brain first thing exploded and immediately I was like, and I lost my mind. But I, I know that obviously you and I are more aligned when it comes to our politics. You know, we're more center left and some people depending on if you're talking to my uncle, maybe far left. But is, is there something that you can speak to of like how you've seen these guys try to label themselves as non biased, how you've seen these guys try to hide these type of things or like I feel like on the left we almost, like, we almost signal too much of our bias. We don't let the people decide whether and where we are.

[David Pakman]

Right.

[Host 1]

And I don't know, like, what do you think about that?

[David Pakman]

So there's a lot there. I mean, first thing is it's not even news what Tim Pool and Crowder do, right? So like the first media literacy kind of, you know, post here to talk about is we're all doing opinion really. This is, we're just in the opinion space. And so like one media literacy problem in the US is a lot of people can't tell whether they're watching news or opinion first problem. Secondly, Tim Pool especially has really played up this whole. I'm a centrist, I agree with the left, I agree with the right. But you know, we know that he's become a Trump supporter. He went to the White House and sat in the new media seat and asked like the most suck up subservient question, which was like, Caroline Levitt, can you criticize everyone who's been so unfair to you? You know, it was so long.

[Host 1]

It was so much longer.

[Host 2]

You can't criticize God. It was who's been the most unfair?

[Host 1]

It was so long.

[David Pakman]

It was such a long question.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it was, it was like such a setup of you. Can you speak for a moment about how everyone in this room here. Yeah, push the following nine host folks is. And then at the end talk about how great I am as a smart little boy in my beanie. Also, I'm wearing a tuxedo shirt. Like it just was, it was just like it so much.

[Host 2]

70 degrees in D.C. take the beanie off.

[David Pakman]

And in that, by the way, in that press briefing room, it's more like 90 degrees with all the lights. But so, you know, it's, I think there's, there's, there's sort of two problems here. There's an audience that has such low media literacy that they don't even really know what they're getting. And then there's People who want to mix, you know, like, I'm clear with my audience. I'm independent in the sense that I am neither a member of the Democratic Party nor part of any media network. That's what I mean by independent. I don't have editors. I don't have a party that says, this is our messaging. But of course, I'm biased in the sense that I have an opinion and the show is based around my opinion. I'm not doing the original reporting. I'm saying, here's what Reuters found, here's my opinion about it. And I don't want to be like, oh, we're just too honest. But there's a degree to which by reminding the audience of this, then they turn on Tim Pool and he goes, we just give you the truth here. And I'm a centrist and blah, blah, blah. And that's kind of how the problem perpetuates itself.

[Host 1]

Yeah. No, I just feel that so much right now when I'm. I. There's. It's Almost like Batman vs. Joker rule, you know what I mean? Where it's like. There's this feeling where we want to be right. Like we want to be on the right side and we've listened to. Even if stuff like, I'm not a journalist, everything I do is opinion as well. And I. I try to make sure. I say that. I tell people where to go, get good sources and where I get my news from and kind of point people in those directions. And it's just. It almost feels sometimes of self defeating when I look and I see, you know, the Tim Pools or the Steven Crowders of the world, and I look at them and I'm just like, they have so much money. Why are you miserable? Why are you? Like, it's just such a.

[Host 2]

It's like the MAGA people that are still angry even though they won.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

They're just still just raging in the streets with their flags on their cars, pissed. And I'm like, you won.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

This is what you wanted.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

They got you pissed.

[Host 1]

They got rid of books. You were always mad at books.

[Host 2]

They got their measles back. You're supposed to be excited.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I just. I just don't. I don't know.

[David Pakman]

You know, I'm reminded of when Democrats. In an attempt to. I don't know. In an attempt to do what? I'm not sure. I remember when Democrats essentially forced Senator Al Franken to resign when he had this controversy. I actually don't. I think it was like he sort of pretended to touch a woman's breasts while she was sleeping.

[Host 1]

It was a picture, I think it was an OS USO tour. It was a picture, I want to say neither Iraq or Afghanistan and they were in a troop carrier and he had his hands out as she was sleeping and he, I don't think he was even actually touching her.

[David Pakman]

I don't think he was.

[Host 1]

And it was like somebody snapped a picture and then it came out later. And yeah, it was, it was a, it was a circular firing squad and it completely predated.

[David Pakman]

I mean, listen, I don't know how big of a deal it would have been if that picture was from when he was a senator. But it wasn't even, it like completely predated even being a senator. And Democrats kind of slowly but surely lined up and said, oh no, if we're going to hold ourselves to the same standards we hold them to, then he probably needs to resign. In retrospect, I don't think Democrats would have pushed for that today, especially with everything that's happened since then. But it was sort of an example of a self inflicted whatever.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And I mean, I mean, listen, I'm sure that when Mayor Cuomo comes to power, he can explain to us, I mean, because that's, it's. We've had this. There's so many times where the circular firing squad has been a really, really rough thing. But I think the other thing has been trying to navigate. The Democratic Party has become the catch all party in the United States. I think once MAGA took over the Republican Party completely that anyone. I mean right now you have Bill Kristol standing. Bill Kristol posted. Maybe the abolished ICE people were right like Bill fucking Crystal. Like my brain broke on that. There's been moments like that and I see the people at the bulwark and I see others and I'm seeing this new fractures and splits that are happening on the left. And then there's also groups of people who believe that the Democratic Party as a whole should be abandoned. I'm not of that group. I believe that we can, we need to reshape the Democratic Party for not only the 21st century, but looking towards the 22nd and actually believing that this country will exist in two years. I think is probably one of the hardest thing for any of us to actually get to. Like, I, there's people, there's. I can't tell you for how long on the Internet I've had CB will be like, you know, 250 is when empires fall. 250 years. That's when empires. What's the date? And I'm like, sure, I don't know which book you photocopied that out of, but can you point me to the. All the other empires that stuck around and all these other different places and times and republics and things that have existed and just we go through changes. And I think that right now, I mean, with David Hogg going, talking about primary people in safe seats, I think that's smart.

[David Pakman]

I interviewed him yesterday, actually.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I think it's smart, and I think it's something that the party itself should be looking at. I think one of the biggest things that the Democratic Party has made a mistake on, whether it be Hillary Clinton or Kamala Harris or any of the other candidates that we've had kind of bubble up over the years, there's a lot of it's their time. And whenever we say it's that person's time, everyone should get in line. We lose.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And the same thing happened the Republican Party. When it was John McCain's time, he lost. When it was Mitt Romney's time, he lost. And we have that same exact thing happen at the state level, whether it be for the Senate or for governors or any of these different things. As you have people who work up through the party, I think every contest should be for that year and should be happening in that moment and be aware that everything can be pulled forward. So I'm happy to see that Dick Durbin is. Isn't going to seek reelection.

[David Pakman]

Right.

[Host 1]

And others, I think that it's time for. I personally, I don't know how you feel about this. I feel like 72 is like the max and that's like, you got to be real good.

[Host 2]

That's young Pope age.

[Host 1]

It's very young Pope. Young Pope, Young Pope age. But I feel like 72 is the age of like once you hit there, don't seek reelection.

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[David Pakman]

Need an age limit or a term limit or. I don't know exactly what we need, but what I'm convinced of is that the average age right now of the leaders is not representative of the population at large and the needs of the population at large. Now it makes sense that leadership would skew slightly older than the average because experience does matter. And so, so you know, if for every 72 year old you need an 18 year old, then okay, the way that you get a perfect average doesn't make sense. But I do think it's very situational. I mean, you look at someone like Bernie and the crowds he's getting and how effective he is at catalyzing people. That to me seems very different than someone like a Chuck Schumer who is trying to be edgy by introducing the F word in a completely forced way. But beyond that is not really connecting with people. I just, I think it's really kind of a case by case basis sort of thing.

[Host 1]

I think it's, I think my, my bigger problem is that some of these guys have never set up and we, you see this in monarchies and you've seen this in other areas where when, if you don't set up a successor, if you're not grooming a successor and they're never thinking about when they're going to leave. Instead they're thinking about legacy, right? And they're not thinking in many of these cases of I'm going to make sure that there's this one Congress. If I'm in the Senate, there's a congressperson I've been working, working with or there's somebody over here. Instead, it's just like, well, I'm done, I'm out. Instead of trying to keep along with the policies that they've built up that they could shore up on. And I think that's kind of more where I've been seeing, where I think, I don't necessarily think it needs to be a constitutional amendment, but I think it should be like a general thing that we keep in mind both as voters and maybe inside of the parties themselves of like, hey, 72, hey, hey buddy, you're 70. You're going to do this. How much don't you want to sit on a boat? It's always my feeling like I'm 70, like my parents are 70. My dad doesn't want to be in the White House. My dad doesn't want to meet President Xi Jinping. Like my dad wants to watch baseball and then tell me that the wood I got with the fix my fence is wrong. Like that's what my dad wants to do. He doesn't want to debate over whether or not we should fund liheap. Like that's a different, I just feel like that is a different thing. But the other thing I feel like is I'm a new parent. My wife and I, we have an 18 month old and we're speaking before the show. You have a daughter, she's almost three. I, I think the thing that's really been, that's refocused my view on politics in recent years is when looking around of how many of our recent leaders and how many people in Washington and maybe even a Harrisburg for Pennsylvania for us, how many, how few of them are going to be around for when my kid is my age and the decisions they're making now, what huge impacts they're gonna have in the future. And I look at somebody like Donald Trump, 78 years old, well, you know, super fit.

[Host 2]

He's right.

[Host 1]

Super fit. Definitely has the right mental acuity. But he's making decisions now that are having not just on an RFK and these guys, not just on the decisions of like what's gonna happen to my son's school in three years, but what is the job market gonna look like, what's the environment gonna look like, what's the planning gonna look like, what's our infrastructure going to look like, what's our state in the world and what America is going to look like when my son is 40 years old.

[David Pakman]

Right.

[Host 1]

And I just don't think any of these guys are looking at it that way. I think they're looking at it as more of how do we get through this quarter, how do we get through this week? And how do we get through this news cycle?

[David Pakman]

Well, to a degree that is almost impossible to avoid when elections are every two, four and six years, depending on the office. So part of it is, is that. But I completely agree with you. I mean, I've had conversations about. I mean, listen, I'm doing the 529 account for my daughter. Will it make sense for her to go to college in 16 years?

[Host 1]

H vac school?

[Host 2]

Yeah, we're going to H Vac.

[Host 1]

No, we're pushing HVAC full on everybody.

[Host 2]

Also plumbing, the AI.

[Host 1]

AI servers. They need H Vac, Air conditioning technicians. It's the one job we figured out you can't replace with robots yet.

[David Pakman]

That's fair.

[Host 2]

Also plumbing. But you got to be not afraid of bugs.

[Host 1]

Also plumbing. And yes, the bugs are growing.

[David Pakman]

No, but to your point, both for reasons of technological change, but also if the cost of college continues to be out, fall out of alignment with wages, it might just be worth starting work four years earlier, learning as you do, unless a degree is required, as it would be to be in medicine or law or a whole bunch, you know, a number of other degrees. So like that. I just don't know. I'm going through the motion pretending things will be the same way in 16 years. I don't know if they're actually going to be that way.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I think the big difference between when Trump was elected the first time in 2017, we were married, but we didn't have a kid. And I remember driving down Columbus Boulevard, there is a big. Philadelphia is covered in murals. I don't know if you've ever been. There's this big beautiful mural of a. It's an American flag, like kind of just waving on paint on the side of this building. And I remember driving and looking at that and then kind of like picturing what a partisan conflict could do in the United States, how quickly things could deteriorate. All those different things, like having those flashes in my mind and thinking like, I hope we get through this and getting all the way to 2020 and getting to the. George, you know, with the, the riots and the conflict that happened around George Floyd's death and other things that, for the police brutality, like, like seeing that happen like in Philadelphia and other places was like, oh, that was a really scary thing that you kind of picture it a couple years early this time around. The part that was terrifying was we have. He was not even a year old when Donald Trump won reelection. And there was that moment of like, now we're going to do it with a baby. And I think that was like the moment. The immediacy of that was very scary. But then looking forward to it even, and even further down the line, I think there's a difference that's also split on the left of. There's a lot of young, younger activists and people who are very online and have a lot of opinions, but they. They're just by themselves. And so not having the family to have to look after and those decisions so that, like, it's almost like we can't see eye to eye because of the decisions that need to be made. I'm not making a decision for myself, my wife. I'm making a decision for the 18 month old. And I think that's the part where the communications are starting to break down a little bit. And I don't know where we can bring that back in to build. To coalesce a movement, I think.

[Host 2]

Wait, let me interrupt you.

[Host 1]

Okay, go ahead.

[Host 2]

Okay. So my thought is like, you know, obviously I feel the same way. It's like I wake up in like a slight panic every day.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Especially with the cost of blueberries right now. As someone who has a toddler, I'm sure you understand the price of blueberries.

[David Pakman]

Yeah. Our berry budget is off the charts.

[Host 2]

Berry budget, crazy. But I think that sometimes waking up and taking a minute and just reminding myself that like, sometimes the most radical act, the most punk rock shit I could do is have hope. And raising a child right now is that radical act of optimism is like, I have optimism for the future. I'm acting on it every day. I'm living every hour with this idea of these people. I'm gonna survive, my child's gonna survive. And like, that's the radical optimism of it all, is like, we have a child, we believe in the future. Let's act it. Even if sometimes we're faking it, Even if sometimes we have to turn off the news and be like, let's go for a walk outside. Yeah.

[David Pakman]

You know, I mean that I've never, like, the antinatalist people will sometimes call into my show. It's just not really for me. Like, I totally get as an individual decision not to have kids, but the idea that just everyone should stop having kids so that we stop ruining the planet. And then eventually, you know, there's no more Homo sapiens. It's hard for me to get on board with that. And I don't know if there's something just sort of like genetically inbuilt in most of us that resist that idea.

[Host 1]

I respect anybody who doesn't want to have kids. We didn't have a kid till we were 40.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

And it wasn't a decision that we. We came to lightly. We were. We spent basically most of our life, you know, under the idea that we didn't want to have kids.

[David Pakman]

Right.

[Host 1]

And so, like, I completely understand that the antinatalist thing is weird because I know that when a while ago I was being attacked for some fucking reason, and one comment that stuck out to me was, I. I knew I shouldn't have trusted him the second he announced he was going to have a kid because he would bring a kid into this world. And I was like, well, then, fuck you. I don't want your opinion like that. Right.

[David Pakman]

My view on that is if we're going to, there are problems that it might take longer than this generation to fix.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[David Pakman]

And if there's no more kids, there won't be anyone around to fix them. So. So that's kind of my view. And then the, you know, the other. I've recently been reading a biography of this philosopher, Derek Parfit, and one of his areas of focus is future persons. And, like, how relevant is it? How much should we distinguish between harm to a living person versus harm to a future person? And so sometimes there's this, like, thought experiment. Imagine that I throw a piece of broken glass out in the backyard and some kid might step on it tomorrow, or some kid might step on it in 150 years because it'll still be there or whatever. Is. Is the damage to the kid in 150 years less important than if a kid steps on it tomorrow? You know, I don't know the answer, but it's a philosophical question to get into, like, how should we think about harm to future people? And sort of like, what we're doing today. And a lot of these. A lot of these questions are really difficult to answer, but none of them point me to we should stop replicating Homo sapiens.

[Host 1]

Yeah. You know, it's funny, actually, what that. That reminds me of is Tim Russert had a book, Tim Russert from Meet the Press. And he talked about his dad. And whenever they had broken glass, his dad would put the broken glass between two pieces of cardboard and then tape it before, because he was so afraid the garbage man would cut his hand. And I read about that in a. It was actually from crack.com, it was an article that one of their editors wrote that was about how with social media and television, we've expanded the amount of people that we can process because, you know, smaller villages and smaller collectives back then, there's about 75 to 100 people is the amount of people that you could put in your brain. And we've started to fill them in with Donald Trump or Barack Obama or the Kardashians or, you know, Tim Pool or these other people have started to fill these slots in. So the point where we don't think about the garbage man anymore, that's just he's, as the kids say, he's an npc, a non playable character that is going to pick up the garbage and put it in. And I think about that a lot because it's not so much about the future, one which we should be making decisions, thinking further ahead. And I think some Native Americans, tribes, right? Seven generations or something like that was one of the things I've heard. But it's also about the fact that we can't even think about theoretical people today. I think it is becoming less and less common of the idea of just like, I made a mess, I spilled a soda, somebody is going to deal with it. It's not going to be me. Drop a soda in the middle of Target instead of standing there until we can get a sign down to warn people, wet floor, just walk away, right? I think it's just, I don't know, it's just a weird thing.

[David Pakman]

The one other note on this also is like, if you do care about personal responsibility, it seems irresponsible to create a bunch of problems and then to be like, we'll stop having kids and not fix any of them either. Although there are some who would say some of these problems would just naturally be fixed if Homo sapiens disappeared. I don't know.

[Host 1]

I mean, there's literally, if we destroy the world, there are no problems. And to me, I think that's also the definition of. Then we're going to get philosophical. Let's go. Let's go. David Pakman. Because here's the thing, I think, I think there's a big difference between how we view the world. There's some people who view the world as Earth. There are some people that view the world as society. There's some people view the world as human beings, right? There's some people view the world of life On Earth. I mean, listen, we are not going to destroy the actual rock. We're not going to make the magma core disappear. We can't do that. We don't have that ability.

[David Pakman]

Not yet anyway.

[Host 1]

Not yet. The God Emperor and the Omniscience come together in Warhammer 40K. We can do a everything. But in I think to me of like the destruction of the world is that idea of the end of humanity or making that, making the place unlivable. And I think that's been one of the big arguments when it comes to climate change. And again, these are the type of things and the discussions that we should be having across the aisle so we can better understand each other. Because I think sometimes when. I don't want to say we on the left. I think sometimes in general when people are talking about the end of the world. Well, what does that mean? Some people say when they end of the world, they think, oh, well, then the trumpet's gonna blow and then all the good people are gonna get sucked up into heaven. Right Then other people view at the end of the world means there's no drinkable water. And so there's no people like. And I think that's. The definitions are getting mixed and lost across communication. Which is why I really appreciate what you've been doing and I really appreciate your book the Echo Machine. How Right Wing Extremism Created a post Truth America. You see, I'm learning learn how to wrap it all together. But David, before we let you go here, do you have any final thoughts for us? Did you enjoy the experience here on too many tabs? Did we open enough tabs for you? Did we not close enough.

[David Pakman]

I enjoyed it thoroughly. And no, no, it's been great. I, you know, every time I'm asked like, is there anything else you want to say? It's like, I don't know, not really. In a vacuum. What could I possibly say? You know, I like the color blue. I don't know.

[Host 1]

Yeah, well, that's where the. Listen, listen, that's. That's the tarp.

[Host 2]

Those are curtains. Those are curtains.

[Host 1]

But I will. Yeah, people can find you David Pakman on YouTube across social. You have, you have your handle everything at David Pakman across everything else.

[David Pakman]

Some, some places it's David Pakman show. Like on Tic Tac.

[Host 1]

Yeah, on the Tic Tac. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. But yeah, you guys can find him David Pakman across social media. David, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it and thank you, Mrs. P. For stepping in and taking me out of my doom spiral.

[Host 2]

Absolutely. You have to. That's literally my job.

[Host 1]

That hope is punk rock.

[David Pakman]

Thank you so much.

[Host 1]

All right, thank you.

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[Host 1]

That was the interview.

[Host 2]

We did it. Oh, my God.

[Host 1]

I know. I think it went pretty good. What do you think?

[Host 2]

I think it was great. Look at us. We had a split screen. We're like real professional podcast.

[Host 1]

I know, I know, I know. I just, I. I think we're getting there, right? We're going interviews. We had a mattress ad read this week.

[Host 2]

We are such podcasters.

[Host 1]

We're get. We're. I feel that the pod is potting.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Oh, we're potting it up.

[Host 1]

We're potting. I'm prodding so hard right now. No, but I think it was fun. I think I was really interesting because, like, I, I, I've been seeing him for a very long time.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Right. Like, I've seen him on the Internet. I never really got to know him that well. Like, I feel like I have a better idea of who he is.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And I was really glad that he said, like, he's like, yeah, I do opinion.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And like, that is kind of.

[Host 2]

I mean, we all know you do opinion.

[Host 1]

Oh, okay.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Host 1]

Okay. You're just gonna say I'm opinionated.

[Host 2]

Oh, yeah. No.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You think you're not.

[Host 1]

I think I'm very. Opinion.

[Host 2]

What are you talking about?

[Host 1]

But, but I think there's that difference that there are. We do get messages all the time, people thinking that I'm more news, that I'm more of a journalist than I'm not. And I found that interesting when we were talking about those things and there was just a bunch other in there of, like, talking about our kids. And I wanted blueberries, the cost of blueberries. But I think I wanted to lean more into that because it was the thing that's always kind of annoyed me when a second I saw that David has a family. Like, oftentimes times when people talk, rarely do families get brought up for men.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And I think that's the thing. I think that's what I'm gonna do. Yeah. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna put my hand. I'll put my hand here on Harriet Tubman Live in concert, a novel, and I'm gonna try to do that if a man has children. Yeah, tell me about your kids.

[Host 2]

Yeah, tell me about your kids.

[Host 1]

Tell me about your family, your frambly. Tell me all about it.

[Host 2]

Well, listen, I feel like we did a lot this episode. We talked about the Pope. We talked about the failures of J.D. vance.

[Host 1]

The many failures.

[Host 2]

The many. I mean, what did I. I wrote that mean comment, and people are still liking it right now. I think I wrote, if JD Vance's mom loved him, she'd be so disappointed. People were like, yo, this is really mean. And I said, I know you.

[Host 1]

Let me tell you something.

[Host 2]

Sometimes I'm really mean.

[Host 1]

There are few people that are meaner than you when you want to be.

[Host 2]

It's true.

[Host 1]

But on our. What I will say is on our upcoming episode, we have a lot of fun things planned for the next couple weeks.

[Host 2]

Oh, my gosh, it's about to go crazy.

[Host 1]

Want you all to stay tuned. So make sure that you, like, subscribe. You comment. If you're on itunes or on Spotify, give us that star rating.

[Host 2]

Tell us what you think about the interview.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And also if you want to hear our new vibing out with a food idiot that's coming out this week, you.

[Host 2]

Will see that I'm excited over at.

[Host 1]

Pearl mania right now Pearlmania500.net to join our Patreon guys. Thank you so much and we'll see you next week. Too many frauds and too many scammers that we wish weren't real. Too many cons and too many spammers and we're starting to feel like we've got too many tabs. Open it. Too many tabs. Remember to smile. I have information that will lead directly to the arrest of Hillary Clinton.

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