Toot or Boot

When Disengagement Is Really Self-Protection

Disengagement at work is often framed as an attitude problem. But what if it’s actually a nervous system response? In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall sits down with HR leader and psychology-trained strategist Erica Spitale to unpack the deeper forces behind workplace disengagement, trust, and emotional safety. Together they explore why employees withdraw when environments feel unsafe, how organizations misunderstand emotions at work, and why productivity without humanity simply doesn’t last. The conversation digs into the complex reality of modern work: employees bringing global crises, economic stress, and personal uncertainty into the workplace while organizations attempt to maintain focus and output. Erica offers a powerful reframing — emotions are not distractions; they are data. Stacey and Erica also examine the fragile nature of trust at work, how it forms (and collapses), and why trust is less about individuals and more about the conditions organizations create. Along the way they tackle the tension between emotional expression and professional boundaries, the myth of “political neutrality” at work, and the structural forces behind disengagement. If you’ve ever wondered why employees seem checked out, why trust at work feels fragile, or how leaders can build healthier workplaces without sacrificing accountability, this conversation offers a more human framework for understanding what’s really happening. Key Takeaways Workplace disengagement is often a nervous system response to perceived threat, not laziness or apathy. Employees disengage when they lack psychological safety, belonging, or trust in their environment. Emotions at work are data points, revealing what matters and where friction exists. Organizations frequently mislabel disengagement as an individual attitude problem instead of a systemic issue. Productivity without acknowledging human needs cannot be sustained long-term. Trust in the workplace is not an individual trait — it is an environmental outcome created by conditions. Employees maintain multiple relationships at work: with their job, their team, and the organization. Leaders must balance clear expectations with humane assumptions. Emotional expression and professional boundaries can coexist — workplaces need space for both engagement and retreat. During economic uncertainty, organizations should invest in developing existing employees rather than relying solely on hiring. Timestamps 00:00 – Why the modern workplace feels emotionally heavy 02:00 – The idea of disengagement as a nervous system response 05:00 – Why disengagement is often misdiagnosed as an attitude problem 08:30 – Making space for emotions while maintaining workplace boundaries 12:00 – Why emotions at work provide valuable organizational data 17:00 – The myth of political neutrality in workplaces 19:00 – Why sustainable productivity requires humanity 23:00 – The complicated role of trust in organizations 28:00 – Trust as an environmental condition, not a personality trait 33:00 – AI hype, responsible leadership, and investing in existing employees

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The ongoing trouble with SHRM

Dec 1600:50:17Tap to summarize

For decades, SHRM has been the institution shaping HR standards, HR certifications, and workplace policy. But as political tensions rise, protections erode, and credibility questions grow louder, HR leaders are asking a new question: What happens when the largest HR organization in the world stops representing workers — and starts representing itself? In this packed, no-nonsense episode of Toot or Boot originally recorded in November 2024, Stacey Nordwall sits down with Sarika Lamont, Tracie Sponenberg, and Morgan Williams to unpack the long, complicated history of SHRM’s decisions and the ripple effects those choices have had on the HR profession, marginalized employees, and federal policy. The group traces SHRM’s evolution from “the only place HR could go” to an entity criticized for political alliances, removing equity from DEI, paywalling pandemic resources, and most recently, found responsible for discriminating and retaliating against a former employee. They also dive into something that matters even more: the rise of people-first HR communities that filled the vacuum when SHRM didn’t — and what HR practitioners can rely on now. Whether you’re SHRM-certified, SHRM-skeptical, or SHRM-conflicted, this conversation gives you the context you need to understand what’s at stake for HR, workers, and the future of workplace policy. Key takeaways SHRM’s decisions shape HR policy, employment law, and workplace norms worldwide. The organization’s political alignment has shifted sharply — and visibly — in recent years. SHRM paywalled critical COVID resources at the height of crisis. Removing the “E” from DEI sent a damaging message to marginalized workers. Johnny Taylor’s public stances contradict SHRM’s stated neutrality. SHRM’s lobbying often benefits employers, not employees or practitioners. The ongoing discrimination lawsuit highlights internal cultural issues. HR’s community-driven response during COVID created better models for learning and support. Alternatives — Peak HR, Hacking HR, Safe Space, Troop HR, and others — now offer richer, people-centered resources. HR leaders must stay informed because SHRM’s policy influence impacts workers, equity, and the future of the profession. Timestamps 02:00 — How each guest’s SHRM journey shaped their perspective 07:00 — The SHRM–HRCI split and political entanglements 12:00 — SHRM’s silence after George Floyd and LGBTQ+ cases 16:00 — The COVID paywall and the turning point in trust 20:00 — Johnny Taylor’s political positioning and the Labor Secretary shortlist 25:00 — Why SHRM’s power matters for HR and workers 33:00 — The danger of “civility” replacing equity 40:00 — How HR community spaces filled the gap 50:00 — Alternatives to SHRM and where HR is going next SHRM controversy, HR policy, Johnny Taylor, DEI equity removed, SHRM lawsuit, HR community, workplace politics, HR certification, lobbying impact, alternatives to SHRM

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The chaos inside modern hiring systems

Dec 901:09:10Tap to summarize

Hiring has never felt more confusing — for candidates, recruiters, or the HR teams stuck in the middle. Between ATS myths, bad advice on TikTok, the Mobley v. Workday lawsuit, and a flood of AI-powered recruiting tools no one fully understands, it’s no surprise people are frustrated and misinformed. In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall is joined by talent experts Dani Herrera and T. Tara Turk-Haynes to pull back the curtain on what actually happens behind the scenes of recruiting. They break down common ATS misconceptions, explain how knockout questions really work, unpack the rise of grifters targeting desperate job seekers, and explore the messy overlap between automation and AI. The trio also digs into the Mobley lawsuit: what triggers instant rejections, when discrimination comes from the humans (not the software), how automation gets misread as AI, and why companies should be terrified of buying shiny tools without asking hard questions about data, bias, legality, and accountability. If you’ve ever wondered why you got rejected in 30 seconds, who really makes hiring decisions, or why every “ATS-proof résumé” online is a scam, this episode gives you the truth — with humor, receipts, and the kind of grounded reality only seasoned recruiters can offer. Key Takeaways Recruiters are not the final decision makers — hiring managers are. ATS systems don’t “reject” people; knockout questions and human setup errors do. Automation ≠ AI — and most instant rejections are automation, not algorithms. Keywords help recruiters search, but keyword stuffing is unnecessary and harmful. Résumé templates claiming to be “ATS-compliant” are pure grift. Many interviewers receive no training, which derails fair hiring. Workday and other large systems are only as ethical as the people who configure them. The Mobley lawsuit highlights systemic, not just AI-driven, discrimination risks. HR teams must ask vendors hard questions about data sources, audits, and bias. Candidates should be wary of bad online advice and seek guidance from real recruiters. Timestamps 00:00 — Why recruiting feels like a black box 02:00 — What recruiters actually control (and don’t) 07:00 — How ATSs really work behind the scenes 14:00 — The truth about keyword myths and “résumé hacks” 20:00 — How knock-out questions trigger instant rejections 23:00 — Grifters preying on job seekers with false promises 28:00 — Workday as ATS and HRIS — why that matters 33:00 — The deeper problem behind Mobley v. Workday 47:00 — When AI amplifies human bias instead of preventing it 55:00 — The questions HR must ask AI vendors now

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The High Cost of Being “Nice” at Work

Dec 200:46:19Tap to summarize

We’ve been taught that “nice” is the goal at work — be pleasant, be agreeable, don’t rock the boat. But what if niceness is actually keeping us stuck, silencing truth-tellers, and protecting the status quo? In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall sits down with author and communications strategist Amira Barger to unpack her new book The Price of Nice — a fierce, funny, deeply human guide to understanding how performative niceness, forced neutrality, and “civility” are used to silence real people and reinforce harmful systems. They explore why truth-telling gets punished, how identity and politics always enter the workplace, why leaders cling to neutrality, and what “nerve” really looks like in practice. If you’ve ever swallowed your truth to keep the peace — this episode will give you language, tools, and permission to show up differently and to challenge harm without self-abandoning. Key Takeaways “Niceness” often demands self-abandonment in service of others’ comfort. Kindness and niceness are not the same — kindness requires honesty. Neutrality is not neutral; it protects power, not people. Identity, politics, and lived experience always walk into work with us. Civility can be weaponized to silence truth-tellers and maintain the status quo. The “nerve vs. nice” continuum explains how we’re socialized to stay small. Micro-actions of courage matter as much as big acts of resistance. Leaders need both advocacy and inquiry to create real change. Perfectly assertive communication helps challenge harm without blowing things up. DEI work still happens in micro-spheres — influence what you can control. Timestamps 00:00 — Welcome + why Amira’s work resonates 01:19 — Defining “the price of nice” 03:17 — The story that exposed the harm of niceness 06:41 — Nice vs. nerve: the continuum 10:22 — Kids, truth-telling, and naming what adults ignore 12:03 — Why politics and identity cannot be separated from work 15:42 — The myth of neutrality — and who it protects 20:52 — The weaponization of civility and tone policing 25:19 — Advocacy + inquiry: a better leadership model 30:03 — The Four W Model: navigating hard moments with clarity 36:48 — Micro-actions as everyday nerve 40:31 — The “relay” model of shared resistance Top Keywords niceness vs kindness, workplace neutrality, nerve vs nice, psychological safety, performative civility, identity at work, DEI backlash, assertive communication, leadership inquiry tools, speaking up at work

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What authenticity at work really means

Nov 2500:51:15Tap to summarize

Work shouldn’t be the worst part of your week — but for too many people, it still is. In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall talks with Madison Butler — author of Let Them See You — about what it really means to show up as yourself at work, even when systems weren’t built for you. Together, they unpack authenticity, burnout, boundaries, and what happens when companies say they value “culture fit” but really mean “sameness.” Madison shares the story that sparked her journey toward radical authenticity — from code-switching and corporate conformity to refusing to straighten her hair for anyone again — and how that moment changed everything. She and Stacey get candid about navigating fear-based leadership, detaching self-worth from productivity, and finding joy when the world (and the workplace) keeps serving chaos. It’s real talk about identity, healing, and humanity at work — the messy, necessary kind that actually makes things better. Key Takeaways: Authenticity isn’t about performance — it’s about liberation. “Culture fit” is just code for exclusion; hire for value add. Fear-based leadership thrives because it protects power, not people. You can’t heal burnout inside the system that caused it. Detaching your worth from work is an act of resistance. Boundaries are a form of self-preservation, not rebellion. Leaders set the tone — your behavior teaches your team what’s safe. Joy at work isn’t frivolous; it’s fuel for survival. Therapy isn’t a luxury — it’s a leadership skill. Creating space for real humans makes better work, period. Timestamps: 00:00 — Why work shouldn’t send you to therapy 02:00 — How Madison learned to show up as herself 06:00 — The moment she stopped code-switching at work 10:00 — The myth of “authenticity” on social media 15:00 — Burnout, dopamine, and chasing the next thing 20:00 — Fear-based leadership and caring less (on purpose) 23:00 — Detaching identity from job titles 28:00 — Culture fit vs. value add: the truth 33:00 — Likability bias and who gets punished for honesty 36:00 — Leading with joy when everything’s on fire Top Keywords: authenticity at work, burnout recovery, fear-based leadership, work identity, culture fit vs value add, psychological safety, trauma-informed leadership, HR and mental health, joy at work, boundaries and burnout

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The employees are not OK

Nov 1800:54:22Tap to summarize

Between layoffs, burnout, political chaos, AI anxiety, and the cost of living crisis, it’s no wonder employees aren’t okay. But if “not okay” has become the new normal, how do we lead, work, and stay human in the middle of it? In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall is joined by Kat Kibben and Ryan-Mae McAvoy to explore the crises reshaping the modern workplace. Together, they dig into what’s behind the stats — from chronic fear and distraction to the way work has replaced community — and why “resilience” isn’t a cure for systemic dysfunction. The conversation goes deep on leadership, empathy, and accountability: why companies still reward the wrong traits in leaders, what a truly trauma-aware organization looks like, and how HR can create stability when the world won’t stop spinning. They talk about what healthy work could look like even when no one’s okay. Key Takeaways: Most employees are operating from chronic fear and instability — and pretending otherwise makes it worse. “Resilience” has become a buzzword that ignores systemic problems. Leadership starts with self-awareness and accountability, not policy. Work has replaced community — and it’s breaking people. Constant information flow keeps nervous systems on high alert. HR can help by creating clarity, consistency, and small certainties. Access to benefits ≠ real psychological safety; trust is built in action. The U.S. over-relies on employers to fill social safety gaps. Leaders need to slow down, ask more questions, and model boundaries. Optimism and connection are radical leadership tools in uncertain times. 00:00 — Welcome + why “employees are not okay” became a refrain 02:50 — The nonstop chaos economy: layoffs, fear, and instability 07:00 — Brene Brown, burnout, and the limits of empathy 11:40 — The trauma of layoffs and why we can’t grit through it 14:00 — Fear-based leadership and the dopamine trap of bad news 18:30 — Are workplaces actually built for resilience? 23:00 — Work as the new community (and why that’s dangerous) 26:30 — What we can learn from other countries’ systems 33:00 — Modern work as dependence: a new kind of slavery 35:30 — Redefining leadership: connection, courage, and curiosity Top Keywords: employee burnout, workplace mental health, HR leadership, resilience at work, trauma-informed leadership, workplace culture, psychological safety, layoffs and fear, nervous system regulation, future of work

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The CEOs are not OK

Nov 1100:49:50Tap to summarize

Something strange is happening in the C-suite — and employees are the ones feeling it. In this fiery and funny episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall is joined by Jessica Winder and Kim Rohrer to unpack a record-breaking trend: more CEOs have stepped down in 2025 than any year in recent history. They dig into why leaders are bailing, what’s really going on behind the “personal reasons” PR statements, and how the revolving door at the top is wrecking trust, culture, and stability across organizations. From “glass cliff” appointments to the “CEO gig economy,” the conversation is equal parts HR therapy and truth serum about power, privilege, and burnout at the top. The crew also looks ahead — asking what happens when nobody even wants to be in charge anymore. And yes, they go there: could AI actually replace a CEO? Key Takeaways: CEO departures hit a 20-year high — and “no reason given” often hides real turmoil. Interim CEOs and “fractional” leaders create confusion, not stability. Boards keep firing individuals instead of fixing systemic problems. The “glass cliff” still pushes women — especially Black women — into impossible roles. Employees feel the ripple effect: fear, fatigue, and lost trust. Leadership churn erodes culture faster than layoffs do. The next generation isn’t aspiring to lead — and that’s a warning sign. Burnout isn’t just for employees; executives are breaking too. AI “leaders” aren’t a solution — but the fantasy says a lot about disillusionment. The future of leadership requires re-imagining power, not recycling it. Timestamps: 00:00 — Welcome and introductions: why CEOs are “not okay.” 04:20 — The CEO exodus by the numbers — record turnover in 2025. 07:15 — Interim CEOs, scapegoating, and corporate gaslighting. 10:30 — Boards keep firing the wrong people. 13:00 — The “glass cliff” and why women say “I’m out.” 15:00 — What’s really behind “voluntary departures.” 20:30 — The shrinking pipeline for diverse leadership. 28:00 — Culture collapse: how constant CEO changes wreck teams. 33:00 — Loyalty vs. chaos: what employees should expect now. 36:00 — Can AI be your CEO? (We said it.) Top Keywords: CEO turnover, leadership instability, HR insight, glass cliff, burnout, workplace culture, board dynamics, interim CEO, employee trust, diversity in leadership

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What in the H-1B is going on?

Oct 2800:53:20Tap to summarize

When politics and policy collide with people’s livelihoods, HR leaders are often the ones left cleaning up the mess. In this episode, Stacey sits down with fractional HR leaders Anessa Fike and Morgan Williams to unpack the chaos surrounding recent presidential proclamations on H-1B visas, the newly proposed “gold card” visa, and what happens when immigration policy turns into a political weapon. They share firsthand stories from the front lines of HR during both the 2016 and 2025 crises—when rushed visa restrictions sent companies into panic mode, disrupted families overnight, and exposed how little most Americans understand about how H-1Bs actually work. From wage suppression myths to talent pipeline realities, this conversation offers the clarity and context that global companies, startup founders, and HR practitioners need right now. Key Takeaways: What the $100K H-1B fee really means for employers. Why this proclamation mirrors the 2016 immigration chaos. The human toll on workers, families, and HR teams. Why H-1B holders aren’t “stealing jobs.” How global talent drives U.S. innovation. The ripple effect on startups, STEM, and tech. What HR leaders must do when layoffs involve visas. The uncomfortable truth about “gold card” visas. How power and privilege shape who gets to stay. Why HR’s role in political turbulence matters more than ever. Timestamps: 00:00 — Welcome + Why this conversation matters 02:40 — Breaking down the new H-1B rules 05:30 — Déjà vu: echoes of 2016 08:00 — Inside HR’s panic during sudden policy shifts 13:30 — The truth about wage suppression myths 18:20 — What H-1Bs reveal about global talent markets 23:40 — Layoffs, life disruption, and HR ethics 28:50 — How the $100K fee blocks smaller orgs 37:00 — Tech, innovation, and talent pipelines at risk 41:00 — “Gold card” visas and the politics of access

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When Black Women Get Pushed Out of Work

Oct 2100:54:10Tap to summarize

Black women are being pushed out of the U.S. workforce at alarming rates—and it’s not by choice. In this powerful episode of Toot or Boot, host Stacey Nordwall sits down with workplace equity expert T. Tara Turk-Haynes and communications leader and career strategist Cassandra Babilya to unpack how federal job cuts, dismantled DEI programs, and systemic neglect have created an economic crisis that reveals much more than the headlines. Together, they explore what this moment says about the state of work, leadership, and allyship—and what HR and business leaders can actually do to respond. Takeaways Black women’s unemployment rate has surged past 7%, the highest of any demographic group. Federal job cuts are erasing a long-standing path to middle-class stability for Black workers. The dismantling of DEI programs has disproportionately removed Black women from leadership roles. “Economic canary in the coal mine”: what happens to Black women first eventually affects everyone. Many former DEI and HR professionals are now turning to entrepreneurship out of necessity, not choice. Fear of “job hugging” and retaliation may be stifling allyship inside organizations. Mutual aid and microgrants are emerging as critical lifelines for displaced workers. Business leaders must proactively assess who’s being most affected by layoffs and hiring freezes. Individual action—referrals, donations, advocacy—still matters when sustained collectively. True allyship means staying present, vocal, and engaged when it’s no longer convenient. Chapters 00:00 – Opening: Black women and federal job cuts set the stage. 05:47 – Cassandra’s “gong” moment: realizing this isn’t a blip. 07:15 – Tara on being “pushed” into entrepreneurship. 10:35 – Why the silence from supposed allies feels like betrayal. 13:55 – The rise of Black women entrepreneurs as a survival strategy. 17:05 – Understanding why Black women are the canary in the coal mine. 21:09 – How layoffs in HR and DEI deepen inequality across the workforce. 29:10 – The erosion of collective bravery and the rise of isolation. 35:50 – Mutual aid and community action in the face of federal cuts. 43:22 – The call to HR: prove you’re human resources, not corporate defense. Resources: https://fortune.com/2025/08/15/black-female-leadership-future-ceos-erased-dei/ https://www.npr.org/2025/04/27/nx-s1-5349442/black-federal-employees-trump-cuts https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2025/05/agencies-majority-women-and-minority-workforces-are-some-hardest-hit-trump-staff-cuts-new-report-finds/405179/ https://19thnews.org/2025/07/black-women-unemployment-jobs-warning-sign/ https://www.msnbc.com/know-your-value/business-culture/300000-black-women-left-labor-force-3-months-s-not-coincidence-rcna219355 https://time.com/7315624/rising-unemployment-black-women-economy/ https://www.epi.org/blog/whats-behind-rising-unemployment-for-black-workers/ https://www.sheenmagazine.com/relief-is-resistance-the-state-of-women-relief-fund/

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Moderna merges HR and IT, the price of office politics, and is sustainable scaling achievable?

Jun 5, 202500:28:58Tap to summarize

In this episode, we explore three critical workplace strategy topics: how effective leaders can minimize office politics through transparency, accountability, and encouraging diverse viewpoints—strategies that seem obvious yet many workplaces still struggle to implement; Moderna's innovative approach to merging their tech and HR departments under a single "chief people and digital technology officer" role, complete with over 3,000 custom GPTs, representing a thoughtful years-long integration rather than a knee-jerk AI adoption; and the challenges of scaling a business sustainably, where the advice to build systems for 10x capacity sounds great in theory but often conflicts with the reality that HR infrastructure typically lags behind growth, creating a delicate balance between building too little too late versus over-engineering for your current stage.ConnectKatya Laviolette on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katya-laviolette-6907b726/Stacey Nordwall on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/Articles How Effective Leaders Minimize Office Politics Why Moderna Merged Its Tech and HR Departments Why Scaling a Business is the Hardest—and Most Important—Stage of Growth

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All episodes

When Disengagement Is Really Self-Protection

The ongoing trouble with SHRM

The chaos inside modern hiring systems

The High Cost of Being “Nice” at Work

What authenticity at work really means

The employees are not OK

The CEOs are not OK

What in the H-1B is going on?

When Black Women Get Pushed Out of Work

Moderna merges HR and IT, the price of office politics, and is sustainable scaling achievable?