Ask Us Anything: Bria Hammel on why full-service firms should always take credit cards

Summary

Trade Tales Episode Summary: "Ask Us Anything: Bria Hamel on Why Full-Service Firms Should Always Take Credit Cards"

Release Date: July 23, 2025
Host: Kaitlin Petersen
Guest: Bria Hamel, Interior Designer and Business Strategist

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Introduction and Context

In this episode of Trade Tales, Kaitlin Petersen invites Bria Hamel, a seasoned interior designer preparing to expand her firm, to address a pressing question from the design community: Should full-service design firms accept credit cards, and how does this impact billing and client relationships?

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Understanding the Original Question

The episode begins with a question from a long-standing designer grappling with her firm's payment methods. She shares her past philosophy of not accepting credit cards, stemming from a belief that high-end clients prefer exclusive payment methods like checks or ACH transfers. However, noticing a trend where more designers accept credit cards, she seeks advice on whether she should adapt her practices.

• Designer (00:51): "I came from World of Super Luxury Interiors in Chicago... I just automatically went to no credit cards."

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Bria Hamel’s Approach to Billing and Flat Fees

Bria delves into her firm's transition to a flat fee structure, a move made to address client concerns over unpredictable costs associated with hourly billing. She emphasizes the importance of having robust historical data and a reliable team before making such a pivot.

• Bria Hamel (21:36): "I always tell people that when they're talking about a flat fee, I do not think a designer who is starting their own business should move in and jump right to a flat fee."

She outlines how her firm calculates flat fees based on square footage and adjusts them according to project specifics like location and team composition. Additionally, she discusses managing scope creep by including clear clauses in the letter of agreement, ensuring both client satisfaction and business protection.

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The Use of Credit Cards in Design Firms

Addressing the core question, Bria shares her firm’s positive experience with accepting credit cards. She highlights several benefits:

1. Convenience for Clients: Credit cards offer clients a swift and hassle-free payment method, enabling faster project progression.

   • Bria Hamel (14:01): "A lot of [clients] use that even with the fees. It's just to them, time is money and they want to be able to move quickly."

2. Financial Security: By passing the credit card processing fees to clients, Bria's firm mitigates the financial risk associated with chargebacks.

   • Bria Hamel (14:01): "We pass along the credit card processing fee to them... it's a convenience opportunity for them."

3. Protection Against Fraud: Accepting credit cards provides a layer of security for both the client and the firm, safeguarding large transactions.

   • Bria Hamel (17:39): "Sometimes the credit card processing, no, it's like 3% is much less than losing all of that."

Bria also explains the technical aspect of facilitating credit card payments through their accounting system, Design Manager, which seamlessly integrates payment links into proposals and invoices.

• Bria Hamel (17:39): "It's very convenient for the client. So it's not clunky, it's very user friendly and it works great."

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Operational Processes and Team Structure

Bria emphasizes the significance of having a dedicated accounting team to manage billing, highlighting how her firm uses tools like Asana and EOS to streamline processes. This structure ensures that billing is automated and accurately tracked, reducing the burden on individual team members.

• Bria Hamel (34:19): "I have now her title CFO and we just hired someone in Charleston to be sit under her as an accountant and they manage that."

She shares that setting up detailed project templates in Asana was initially challenging but ultimately highly beneficial, allowing her firm to manage complex projects efficiently.

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Expansion Plans: Opening a Second Location

Excitement builds as Bria announces her firm's expansion into Charleston, South Carolina. This strategic move aims to enhance company culture by establishing a physical presence, fostering team cohesion, and tapping into a new market.

• Bria Hamel (11:18): "We are opening in October, a new location in Charleston, South Carolina, which we are so, so excited about."

The new Charleston office will house both the design studio and a retail store for her home decor line, Brook and Lou, indicating a comprehensive approach to business growth.

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Advice and Insights for Designers

Bria offers invaluable advice to designers contemplating changes in their billing practices:

1. Invest in the Right Team: Hiring knowledgeable accounting professionals is crucial for managing complex billing and tax requirements.

   • Bria Hamel (34:19): "It's very important for people to invest in the right accounting people and it's an investment because they're expensive."

2. Embrace Flexibility: While maintaining non-negotiables like upfront payment for products, being flexible with clients can open doors to significant projects.

   • Bria Hamel (29:14): "You can't be so regimented that you turn down some really incredible projects just because it's your way or the highway."

3. Build a Strong Brand: Creating an identifiable brand that emphasizes the client experience can facilitate business scaling and client loyalty.

   • Bria Hamel (38:43): "From day one... I wanted to create a brand and not just a body of work... everything you put out there needs to be part of your brand."

4. Maintain Clear Communication: Regularly updating clients about billing processes and being transparent about fees fosters trust and minimizes disputes.

   • Bria Hamel (24:55): "We put all those caveats in our letter of agreement saying... we need to reevaluate our... adjust your fee."

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with Bria sharing her favorite piece of advice: the importance of building a strong, identifiable brand that reflects the firm's values and client experience. She underscores that confidence, backed by solid reasoning and data, is key to successful client interactions and business growth.

• Bria Hamel (38:43): "It's okay to have a point of view and to not be a designer."

Kaitlin Petersen thanks Bria for her insightful contributions and encourages listeners to submit their own questions for future episodes.

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Key Takeaways

• Accepting Credit Cards: Offers convenience and security for clients, with minimal financial risk when fees are appropriately managed.

• Flat Fee Structure: Requires comprehensive data and a reliable team but can enhance client trust and streamline billing.

• Operational Efficiency: Investing in robust accounting systems and team members is essential for managing complex billing and scaling the business.

• Brand Building: A strong, distinctive brand facilitates business growth and client loyalty.

• Flexibility in Services: Offering varied levels of service can attract a broader client base without overcommitting resources.

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Notable Quotes:

• Bria Hamel (14:01): "A lot of [clients] use that even with the fees. It's just to them, time is money and they want to be able to move quickly."

• Bria Hamel (38:43): "It's okay to have a point of view and to not be a designer."

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This episode provides a comprehensive look into effective billing strategies and the strategic acceptance of credit cards in the interior design industry, offering actionable insights for both emerging and established designers.

Transcript

[Bria Hamill]

Foreign.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything where we're tapping your favorite Trade Tales guests to answer all of your questions about building a better design business. Some weeks we'll be workshopping a crisis. In others, we'll take a step back to talk about the big picture. Things like embracing change, hiring, or how to level up. No question is out of bounds. No question is too large or too small. And we're keeping it confidential so that this is always a safe space to air your frustrations and share your fears. This week, I'm excited to field a question from a designer who's rethinking the way her firm accepts payments from clients.

[Designer]

I've been in the business for 20 years. I have had my own firm for 10. And I came from World of Super Luxury Interiors in Chicago. And the feeling was back then that we didn't take credit cards because our clients didn't need that. If they couldn't afford it, they couldn't afford us. And so when I started my own firm, I just automatically went to no credit cards. But now it seems to me like more designers than I realized accept credit cards.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Our question asker wants to make sure she's staying up to date with how she's charging her clients. But her question is also about when to collect payment if she settles into charging a flat fee for her firm's work.

[Designer]

So I was curious about that because I only accept basically checks or ach. And the reason is one, because it seems like my client doesn't need to pay by credit card. But I've also heard from other designers and other small business owners, maybe not designers, that it's dangerous to accept credit cards because then the clients could reverse the charges and you'd get stuck. And it's like, that's not great if you're a small business.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Right.

[Bria Hamill]

So it's the same thing that designers are looking to do with vendors to protect themselves. Could come back to bite you. Yeah, yeah.

[Designer]

So then the other question is like, okay, you know, we operate in two realms. One is the service like your design fee, and the other is purchasing. And so do some designers only accept credit cards for their FF and E, or do they accept it also for their service? I'm just very interested to know what people are doing, especially in sort of the luxury market.

[Bria Hamill]

Totally.

[Designer]

And I had someone else point out that, like, well, contractors don't take credit cards.

[Bria Hamill]

Right, Right.

[Designer]

They only take checks. So what's the difference?

[Bria Hamill]

Would there be a benefit for Your firm that you can imagine to saying like, yep, we take cards. You can pay your fee by card. You can put your deposit down for product with a card.

[Designer]

I can only imagine there's a convenience factor for clients and I don't want to miss out on that.

[Bria Hamill]

What is the current cadence of billing for you or what does that look like right now?

[Designer]

So I, I switched to flat fee maybe over a year ago. But of course there's like a lingering time where I had to get, well.

[Bria Hamill]

You'Re doing both, right?

[Designer]

Right, exactly. And that's a challenge. So I switched to the flat fee and now I'm totally flat fee. But I had to decide what that flat fee was when it got billed. And I think I've just hit on the right cadence of billing. But I don't have a project yet that is currently like on the new project to like try it out.

[Bria Hamill]

Has payment ever felt like a pain point for you?

[Designer]

Oh my gosh, it is way up there. It's probably like my number two pain point. It's just about sitting down and doing it. I feel like no matter what you're using, like, somebody has to be the person who says, this client owes me this amount of money and we have to tell them.

[Bria Hamill]

Yeah.

[Designer]

And like send them that. The information that they owe X amount of dollars.

[Bria Hamill]

And then does that have to be you?

[Designer]

I wish it weren't. I like keep trying to get it to be someone else. Like I have a bookkeeper.

[Brea Hamel]

Right.

[Designer]

And it's like I thought maybe they would be the ones to do it. And they're great. But that doesn't seem to be part of it. I guess. Only I know who has paid what and who's gonna pay what and why it's this much and why it's not. This is something I'm really gonna be working on this year is like simplifying the billing process or at least making it more transparent to me and clients. And it's not just getting clients to pay. It's like, I am the problem. Like sending out the invoices and like getting together to get paid is like, right. Oh my God, why is it so hard? I don't understand this question.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Asker is absolutely not alone in wondering how credit cards fit into the workings of a modern day firm. A few weeks ago, I posted an Instagram story about paying with credit cards that ignited a surprising amount of color commentary from designers across the country. They wanted to know, should you let your clients pay that way or shouldn't you? Should you pass along the fees or build them into your margins or simply accept them as a cost of doing business. There were a lot of opinions out there, but a lot of questions too. As I ended my call with this designer, I knew just who to connect with to help her find her footing. Someone with a billing workflow that operates like a well oiled machine. All that and more in just a moment. As your clients needs evolve, the spaces you create for them must be able to flex and adapt. The latest collection for forehands does just that, with more than 400 versatile elevated pieces designed to help you help your clients get more out of their homes. What does that mean in practice? Everything from flexible seating for entertaining and room dividers for work, from home days to outdoor styles that look like effortless extensions of the interiors, and kitchen islands that pull double duty as a space for snacks after school and cocktails after five, these fluid pieces can be used to add a sense of ease to daily life and to create transformative spaces where anything feels possible. Find inspiration for your next [e-mail] Tradetales today I'm joined by Brea Hamel, whose firm is preparing to open a second location in Charleston, South Carolina this fall. When Bria was a guest on TradeTales in 2023, she explained how she developed processes that establish clear expectations for clients, especially when it comes to billing. I thought she'd be the perfect person to answer today's question.

[Bria Hamill]

Thank you so much for joining me today. Trade Tales listeners heard from you last in 2023 as part of a special series of interviews about making major business pivots. We talked a lot about how you had been thinking about client fit and getting really granular about the way that you vet potential jobs. How has that evolved for you in the last couple years?

[Brea Hamel]

Yeah, you know, it's so funny that it was two years ago that we chatted and I feel like life has changed so much.

[Bria Hamill]

The industry has changed so much too.

[Brea Hamel]

It really has. It really has. And you know, I'm now 13 years in business and I do think that like these last few years, it's kind of feels like a grown up version of ourselves. We have a lot more confidence in how we speak to potential clients and we also have a lot more confidence in just what we love to do. So it's a lot easier to vet through leads and hear about their projects and know what we're good at and what we might not be as good at or what we don't enjoy doing as much. So that's been a huge change for us in the last two years. And I think I was alluding to wanting to be able to do that more on the call the last time. And we've definitely, I can say, have been executing that really well.

[Bria Hamill]

Are there times then when you meet with or talk to a client that you really like, but you're like, oh, you seem awesome, but this job isn't where we'll shine? I'm really sorry.

[Brea Hamel]

Yes, unfortunately, but fortunately that happens quite often actually, where maybe they're just not ready for us yet and the full service scale. But one thing that we have done over the past few years, starting with COVID is we have created different levels of our service and how we can help clients so that I don't have to say no so often. So we offer E design packages. We only take a certain amount of E designs a year. I do not do them, my team does them. But it's a way for us to be able to help people without over committing ourselves on the full scale design portion of our business. It's also a way to support my home decor line, Brook and Lou, because a lot of times we're specifying for our E design projects, a lot of it comes from Brook and Lou. And then I also, I'm on the expert, so I'm able to offer, you know, those half hour or one hour sessions for those clients that might not be ready to pull the trigger yet, but want to get to know me or they have a quick like, I need to prepare my house to sell because I want to hire you guys to do our next house, those kind of things. So I do think that being able to be in a position where we have the team to offer different levels of service has allowed us to work with those people that we love and we could see as really incredible future clients. But, you know, they're just not quite ready for the. Our bread and butter of our full service design.

[Bria Hamill]

That's amazing.

[Brea Hamel]

And I don't think that I could have done it 10 years ago when it was me and two other employees. But you know, we're a team of 14 and hiring, hiring a lot right now. So we just have the, we have the structure that we can do it now.

[Bria Hamill]

Is that the secret? Does that kind of level of does like stratifying your offerings that way require a bigger support team?

[Brea Hamel]

I think it does, you know, but it also is, it is a safety net, you know, if the market changes or things happen with the economy and the calls aren't coming in as much, it allows us to Continue to grow and continue to do the business that we're doing in different ways. So, you know, like, if we've had a hard year, especially probably three, four years ago, where things were just a little quieter, we were able to continue to do the numbers that we were doing by just scaling up on some of the other services. So, you know, 2021, we were doing a lot of E designs, and those clients have actually come back to us and been turned into really large projects in the future. So I'm not above it. And I think that being a yes person is something that a lot of our clients are attracted to for us within reason. So it's an interesting business plan for designers. You just make sure you're not over committing, because the most important thing is that whatever we're doing, client facing is the best work, no matter what, so that they're always happy with our service.

[Bria Hamill]

What else is happening at the firm that's really exciting for you right now? What gets you excited to go to work these days?

[Brea Hamel]

Once we started kind of honing in on our ideal clients, we were trying to think outside the box on what was next for the business. And we have decided to open a second location. So we are opening in October, a new location in Charleston, South Carolina, which we are so, so excited about. We had been doing a lot of work in the area for a while, and, um, honestly, a lot of it came from. We were trying to hire and grow our team and really struggling to do that just here in Minnesota and thought to ourselves, you know, we work all over the country. We actually, I would say only about 15% of my business is in Minnesota. The rest is all over. So we were like, why does our. Why do our employees have to be here? I do believe in company culture, and I think that I can do that best when I have teams working in person and not just having remote employees everywhere. So we decided, like, instead of just opening up our positions to remote work, that we would find a new location in a place that we really enjoyed being, that we really knew that we could grow another business in, and Charleston was that for us. And then personally, honestly, it's a place that myself and my family love to go. And so it's something that really helps my personal life too, of just being able to open in a place that we could get a house and have kind of a second home for my family to go to as well. So we're very excited. We're hiring. So if any designers are listening, we are looking for designers in Charleston to join our team and really help spearhead the design team there. But we're really excited.

[Bria Hamill]

Are you basically kind of duplicating your operations? Like, will you have a second of everything on the ground in Charleston?

[Brea Hamel]

Yeah. So we've hired someone to join our accounting team that's in Charleston or hiring a marketing person. Right now we're hiring an interior stylist, interior designer. And then along with that, the location that we have, we are going to have a brick and mortar store for our Brick and Lou business. So it'll be part retail store, Brook and loo, and then part design studio in the back. You'll have to come visit.

[Bria Hamill]

Yeah, I would love to. Are you ready to give some advice?

[Brea Hamel]

I am. Always love doing that.

[Bria Hamill]

So this week we're fielding a question from a designer who jumped into my DMs a few weeks ago with a question about how other designers are using credit cards and also how much to tailor your business practices to the way your clients want to pay. I want to start with credit cards first. Right off the bat, what's your take on accepting a client's card for design services?

[Brea Hamel]

Um, yeah, so we do accept credit cards for clients we have for many years. When you think of a full service, high end design firm, I think that being that yes person is just something that's really important. That we are not a design firm that is higher than thou or thinking. You know, I've heard a lot of people say that if they can't afford to pay for it in cash, they shouldn't be doing it. And for my clients, that has nothing to do with why they use a credit card. A lot of it is convenience. They are moving fast. They live very busy lives. They need quick, easy access to just being able to move the process along and it allows us to move along faster. So we do collect credit cards from them and. But we also charge a fee for it. So we pass along the credit card processing fee to them and that way we're not out anything for it, but it's a convenience opportunity for them. And I can't tell you how many clients use that even with the fees. It's just to them, time is money and they want to be able to move quickly. And you know, it's also protective for them to be able to have some kind of insurance plan because that's something that is kind of missing in our design world and something that has been on my radar more and more of these clients making these huge investments with firms. And for us, we take 100% down at time of order. And that's a risk for the client. You know, here's my money. And then you can deliver in six months or a year, you know, maybe longer. So I think that the credit card is just another kind of an insurance program for them to just be able to be confident to give us that money.

[Bria Hamill]

You said you pass along those fees. I'm assuming then they have a fee free option to pay as well. How do you present those payment options to a client?

[Brea Hamel]

So we always say we accept checks. Checks do hold up the orders because we have to wait for them to clear the bank, which, you know, some of these, it's not like we're taking small checks. These checks can be quite large and it can take a week or two to clear the bank. So we actually discourage checks for that reason unless they're not in a hurry. But almost every client is. And then we do ACH and wire transfers and we offer, we cover the fees to go with any of the ACH or wire transfers for us. For a wire transfer, I think it's normally 20, $30. And we're happy to cover that for them. I have a close friend who had a major issue when trying to close on a sale and a wire transfer got intercepted and they lost a lot of money. And I'm kind of burned from that. So we actually put in place that once my friend had told me about that, we put in a place that it's required that the client actually gets on the phone with us and the number over the phone with us, not just over email, because it was over email that they had that wire interception where the hacker got into the email and changed the numbers. I don't even know how they do it, but they did. And it was hundreds of thousands of dollars they lost. So.

[Bria Hamill]

And it's just gone, gone.

[Brea Hamel]

You'll never get it back. So again, sometimes the credit card processing, no, it's like 3% is much less than losing all of that. So it's not that you can't do it properly. You just have to have those precautions in place because again, and our clients respect us for that when we tell them, like, we're just trying to protect your investment and taking these extra steps, you know, or having these options for you is just for. To make sure that you feel comfortable and that we are taking your investment seriously.

[Bria Hamill]

How are you facilitating that credit card payment? You said, you know, a client just gets a link, can click and kind of fulfill that. Where is that coming from? Or like, technologically, how do you do that, yes.

[Brea Hamel]

So we use design manager for all of our accounting and they have a built in processing center where we can directly send them the link to the proposal and they can see the proposal online and then they can click to pay. It's very convenient for the client. So it's not clunky, it's very user friendly and it works great. It gets deposited directly into our account.

[Bria Hamill]

Is that the same process then when it's time to pay for the product in full?

[Brea Hamel]

Yep, exactly. So the design fee all the same. When we do design fees, it's. It's an invoice instead of a proposal, but the client proposal, same way we charge 100% up front when they, at time of order. And so then they can click and it covers all the taxes and everything and it's just one click and it's done.

[Bria Hamill]

Have clients objected to those fees like to the, to the credit card fee?

[Brea Hamel]

They don't because they have other options. You know, and that's why we do that is if some, and some of them, it's interesting, some of them at the beginning of the project, they don't use the credit card processing. A lot of clients like to send checks for design fees and that's fine because that doesn't really hold up anything typically. And even for their first proposals, you know, when we're starting to work with them, a lot of times they won't use the credit card. I see them using the credit card towards the end of the project. So if we have anything add on, you know, or like a lot of times our window treatments aren't finalized when we're ordering the furniture because it's a new construction and we can't measure for the window treatments yet or whatever it may be. So by the end of the project I feel like they're getting tired of sending all the checks or working on the wire transfers. And all of a sudden they're all, it's funny, I'm like, oh, there's a credit card, you know, and the fees can add up on these dollars. It can be, but you can just tell like at one point they're just like I'm done, I just need to be done with this. Go through the process. And again, it's all about offering that level of service where they can choose. They're not forced to do one or the other, but they have the option. And it is very interesting and how most of the clients at some point or another will use the option.

[Bria Hamill]

I love that, you know, you referenced, inserted the question asker here. This idea about, you know, credit cards suggests that maybe the client doesn't actually have the ability to afford this project right for you. In your experience, is credit card use tied to I want to extend this payment out over time, or is it really purely about kind of ease and instantaneous payment?

[Brea Hamel]

You know, maybe at the beginning of my business, when we were working on smaller projects and with clients who were, you know, maybe using a designer for the first time, and potentially it was more about extending it or, you know, getting the points. But obviously, we know when you calculate points, that the cash that you're spending on the fee is not more than you're making for getting. Yeah, hopefully they're better at math than that. But I would say now, like, I don't have a client that is using it because they're trying to extend. And the payment, it's truly convenience.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hey, designers, I'm back with a quick reminder about the latest collection from Four Hands, which just dropped online. I got a sneak peek. I have to say, you're going to love it. These timeless styles will help you create spaces that define home and that help your clients do more. Versatility is the name of the game here, and so is the ability to find designs that are right for your next project. With more than 400 elevated pieces that flex, move, contain, and connect. Find the inspiration for your next [e-mail] trade deals.

[Bria Hamill]

I want to pivot a little bit. So our question asker also recently switched to a flat fee and has had a few challenges there. And I was wondering if you could talk to me a little bit about that. Was that a challenge for you in the beginning?

[Brea Hamel]

So we switched to flat fees probably five, six years ago, and that stemmed from us getting a lot of pushback. And honestly, I was noticing that we weren't having clients come back to us as much for future projects. And I questioned that, and I poked holes in it to the point where I even reached out to some of them and just said, you know, I'm a business person. I totally respect your decision. I see that you're working on another project now with somebody else. I would so appreciate just any feedback. And a lot of times what I had heard from clients was that hourly was just the fear of the unknown. When they started a project, they had such a hard time of really understanding what our costs were going to be. And we've worked on that a lot now. I always tell people that when they're talking about a flat fee. I do not think a designer who is starting their own Business should move in and jump right to a flat fee. It is so hard to understand the time it takes.

[Bria Hamill]

Yeah.

[Brea Hamel]

And what you should be charging without having that historical data. So I had, you know, eight years under my belt before we did it. And also I have a team that's been with me for a long time. So when we have new designers joining our team, that's when we don't charge hourly, but I might have them track their time for a while just to kind of audit, you know, how quickly are they moving through the process? Do I need to be changing things? But we have a pretty good grasp on what a project's going to take, and we do change that fee based on location and who else is on the team. So who is the architect, who is the contractor? And also just getting to know the client. You know, we can kind of watch them move through the lead process and what is their pace and how quickly are they to respond, how many questions are they asking? And that all kind of helps us compute. You know, this is probably the range that we need to be at. And then we do it by the square foot is how we come up with flat fee. And so that's all calculated before we give them the letter of agreement. And then in the letter of agreement, we will put the flat fee in there. And we also put a note in there about any additions. So we are pretty clear about what the scope of the project is specific to the sponsor spaces we're designing. What we've been noticing happening, especially with our projects that are new construction, which is a lot, is that they are building the house, and then all of a sudden they add. Decide they're going to add a pool and then a pool house, you know, or outdoor spaces they want us to design. Or I'm getting a lot of, will you be in my landscape meetings with me? Things like that. So we put all those caveats in our letter of agreement saying, you know, like, we're happy to assist with any of this future work, but we would need to reevaluate our. Our letter of agreement and do an addendum to adjust your fee. And that just protects us from, you know, scope creep, which always happens.

[Bria Hamill]

Do you have to go back then on almost every project and sort of renegotiate for some of those things?

[Brea Hamel]

It is very common for clients to decide they want to do more than what they thought they did. And that's okay. We're happy. I mean, right about that. You know, it's a good thing for our business. We just need to make sure that our letter of agreement is really clear about that. Because it can be a hard convers if it's not very clear. One thing I always tell my team is that when we talk about it, it's not so hard to talk about it later. So when we're talking about it up front of in our onboarding meeting, we might review the letter of agreement in person with them that they've already signed and just hey. So as we move through this process, it's very common that things might change with your plans or you end up adding more spaces in that. We are happy to help you with anything that you need help from. We'll just adjust that letter of agreement and create an addendum for you guys. So we again accommodation customer first, but it's also protecting us so that we're not all of a sudden like, oh gosh, they've been such great clients but now they want us to help more. And I feel bad adding telling them that they have to pay us even more money. But it's all about how you approach it. So when we talk early and often, it's a lot easier later on.

[Bria Hamill]

That's amazing. One of the things that I think this question asker was looking at was sort of the cadence that her flat fees were going to roll out. And you know, like when do you charge this fees? You charge 100% for each phase up front.

[Brea Hamel]

Yes. So we do take our design fees and we will break them up by okay, okay, okay. But we only allow them to do it. They're completely paid up before we present design to them. So it's not really by like each phase of the entire project, but more so the first payment has to be received when they sign the letter of agreement before we get on the like schedule the first meeting so that basically they have a financial commitment to us, not just a piece of paper. And then the second we'll do at the time of our vision meeting, which is when we're presenting to them like the mood boards, the inspiration for each room. And then we collect the the third payment. Sometimes we let it go into the fourth depending on timing. Like if sometimes clients are having us work with them directly with the architect. Like they come to us with no plans, you know, and so then we might break it into four payments and do one at like at final plan, then at vision phase and then before the design presentation we will collect the last one. And that's just to protect us from our intellectual property. Our design is what they're hiring us for. And yes, the project management phase and all of that is a huge part of what we do and what makes us great. But it's important that the design fee is, to me, it's important that we have that collected before we present the design. It just shows their commitment to the design. It shows that, you know, it allows us to go all in on it. And honestly, no clients, they don't push back on it. It's just, again, it's the process that I believe in and I have the reasons why and I share that with them and they're good with it.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's great.

[Brea Hamel]

It's confidence. It's half the battle in our, in our world is just like really believing in what you're doing and then having that explanation for them. And, you know, one of my clients actually recently told me, they're like, it's so amazing because you just have this quiet confidence of like, it's not pushy. It's just we've done a lot of research. I'm very like, I'm a research driven person. I love to poke holes in things and ask clients about their experience and tell me what we can do better. Especially the clients that love us. I want them to be the ones to tell us, okay, that's great, but what else can we do? And when you have that kind of information, then it's easier to believe in what you're saying. And when you believe in what you're saying, the client will too.

[Bria Hamill]

I do love that you said, you know, it's confidence, but it's also having the reasons why. And I think so often it's easy to get caught up in, well, this is just what everyone does, or this is the industry standard, or this is the way I saw it. And I love that you have these clear reasons for, we do business this way. Here's why. Any questions?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Great.

[Brea Hamel]

Right? Exactly. And I will say with that, I am flexible on certain things. Not as much about the design fees, but if it's a special project, like we're working on a country club right now, a little bit different scenario because there's a committee we're working with and they have to have the vote in from the entire member membership.

[Bria Hamill]

Oh, my God, you're literally designing by committee.

[Brea Hamel]

Literally. It's a whole different ball game. It's been such a great experience, but it is, it's a process. And I think that we had to be flexible to be able to get that project. You know, flexibility was important to them. They had worked with other firms that weren't that way. And that was really important to them because it's just a unique situation. It's not like designing for one client. So we do offer flexibility that way, but we also know they're good for it. I just always say like you can't be so regimented that you turn down some really incredible projects just because it's your way or the highway. So for that project we did offer flexibility of like when we're collecting the design fees and how much they're paying, putting down for the product that they're ordering, all within reason, that still protects us. So no matter what, when I order furniture, I will never not take enough to cover all of my costs on it so that if I would be out time, but I wouldn't be out money. And then I will never ever, ever deliver furniture without having payment info. So those are just like my two non negotiables. But then beyond that, if it's the right project that's really going to move the needle for your company, then, you know, that's when I have some flexibility.

[Bria Hamill]

Can you talk a little bit about your. Usually you're collecting 100% upfront for product. Are there any other fees then that you're billing at the tail end?

[Brea Hamel]

No. So we include, we have a flat rate fee for our receiving and delivery as well. That is a percentage off of sales. We monitor that number monthly. So we do, when we close out a project in our systems, we do an accounting review of that project. So we look at our margins on every single project and we actually change that percentage again based on location. Because it is much more expensive to deliver furniture in New York City or San Francisco or L. A than it is in Minneapolis. So those are the things we look at and we document it all so that you know, if a client ever, a potential client, came back to us and was like, you know, I think this fee is too high. I can show them numbers of this is what it costs, you know. So when you have your historical data and you have the numbers to back it up, it's a lot easier to defend what you're doing, you know, and I'm, we're fair. We need to make money. I'm a for profit business. But we're also not here to take them to the cleaners. So we have flexed that it was really high a couple years ago and it's gotten a lot lower. But again we really watch by city where what that is and that we collect up front too. So on the proposal it'll have the entire amount for the Furnishings, and then it has the flat rate fee on that proposal per room, and then obviously the taxes, and we collect all of that at once. And that actually came from a client. So I've had a lot of designers ask me, like, how do you convince your clients to pay 100% up front? And one of my clients, when I went to him and said, you know, he's a business owner too. So we really bonded on that level. And I asked him, I was like, okay, so business owner to business owner, what could I do better?

[Bria Hamill]

Oh, I love that you asked that.

[Brea Hamel]

Yeah, like, what. What was the thorn in the side with working with Bria Hamill Interiors? And he told me, this is a long time ago, too. He said, you know, the biggest headache was having to pay multiple invoices and not knowing, like, what was this for? And he's like, you know, you build this house and you're getting bills from the builder, getting bills from the architect, getting bills from the designer. And he was like, it's so hard to keep track of. And at the time, we were doing like 60% down on furnishings, 40% before delivery, but we would do it on every proposal. So as items came in, we would invoice for the balance of it, which is a nightmare for accounting as well. And he said, I knew I was going to owe you the money no matter what. Why don't I just pay you up front? And then you have one time that you send me a bill, I have one heart attack writing the check, and then I'm done with it. And he was like, it's really hard when you get to the very end of a project and all of a sudden you have all these invoices coming in and the unexpected of, oh, this is how much this cost to deliver your furniture. So here's another bill. So that's when we really started. We didn't switch right away. I knew that I needed documentation and that historical data to be able to really set a good flat fee. But probably about 18 months after we had that conversation is when I switched to flat fees on all fronts, including that receiving and delivery fee. Because I just took his advice that clients knew they were going to spend the money, and the less of a headache of having to manage all of that for them, the better.

[Bria Hamill]

Who have you put in place to actually do the work of billing? I think that was something this question asker said too, was like, right now she's like, I'm the keeper of the information. So I have to sit there and look at this and make sure, it goes out and maybe is there a person that made that easier for you or sort of lightened the burden of the accounting and billing side?

[Brea Hamel]

Yes, absolutely. I would say everyone's first hire, beyond maybe a part time assistant would be an accounting person, someone that really unders and it's hard to find separate from a bookkeeper. No, a bookkeeper, but I would never call them, I've never hired. Well, that's not true. I had at one time hired bookkeepers who were not in the industry and it's very hard for them to understand our business. It's a different type of accounting. The billing is different. Billing for services versus product and then especially as you grow and you start to work in other states, the tax liabilities on it. I think it's very important for people to invest in the right accounting people and it's an investment because they're expensive. But I think it's so important to make sure you're doing business properly. So that's who I have. I have now her title cfo and we just hired someone in Charleston to be sit under her as an accountant and they manage that, which I think it's very easy for someone to have one person that if you're not doing high, high volume to be able to do all the billing for you. And then we use the system called eos. And EOS allows you to have a structure within your company that helps you manage processes. And for us processes are everything. And we use Asana to help us manage that. So in Asana we send set up a project template when we get a new project and it talks to all of the teams working on the project. So it talks. It has tasks for the accounting team, it has tasks for the design team, it has tasks for my support team, like my, I have a expediter, customer service, those kind of people too. And even to my marketing team when it comes time for the photo shoot. And I think that the nice thing is if you invest time into setting up those processes in Asana, then you just copy paste, copy paste. So anytime we get a new project, it's a copy paste and those tasks are all built out in there. So when we have a letter of agreement is signed, that triggers my director of design to set up the client in our systems, which then triggers the accounting team to start the billing process. And then they'll schedule out like, okay, time to bill design fee two, time to build design fee three, you know, and it's all just in our system. So it doesn't, you don't have to have it top of mind all the time. Everyone lives and breathes in asana in our business and they know what they have to work on that week. And we can trust that that template has everything we need so that we're not forgetting something.

[Bria Hamill]

That sounds like a nightmare to set up and a dream to live with once you have it in place.

[Brea Hamel]

It really is. And a nightmare to set up a little bit. Except that just start from like I always tell the team, like, let's just brain dump. Like, let's just like, okay, what is.

[Bria Hamill]

Every single piece of this? Yeah, yeah.

[Brea Hamel]

And don't think that you're going to get it perfect the first time. We're constantly changing our templates. Literally just today we had our L10 and accounting team was talking to design team and saying, you know, we're talking more about like insurance for warehouses. And the accounting team was saying, I don't know, that we have a task for every time a new project is set up, that we're confirming that we have insurance set up for that warehouse. Talking about weather, like rising water insurance, and, you know, all those things. And she's like, I'm worried with all, you know, hurricane season started. And she's like, I'm just worried that we're. That I'm going to miss a warehouse. So can we create in that template a task that says, okay, this project's been set up. I need to confirm that we're insured in that warehouse. And if we're not, then I need to set that up. You know, so we're con. That was just today. We are constantly poking holes in that template of how to make it better. Now. It's overwhelming. If you look at the template and look at old and it's also a great seller. If you ever want to sell your client on why your fees are what.

[Bria Hamill]

They are, look at all the stuff. You don't have to think about all.

[Brea Hamel]

The tasks that go into doing their project. It's insane. But again, it's all in there and it's all divided out, phased out by the timeline of the project. So, you know, we can see by date when things are going to be due. And it cannot have populate to who it's getting assigned to. So I mean, it's actually once you put the time into it, it's. It's a huge time saver.

[Bria Hamill]

This has been amazing. You have given some great advice today. I wanted to also ask you what is the best piece of advice you've ever received?

[Brea Hamel]

You know, I think the One that I always stick with and I constantly think about it with both of my businesses, is that from day one, when I started my business, I decided that I wanted to create a brand and not just a body of work and not a portfolio. And as much as I've talked about flexibility on this call, I also think that kind of creating a brand that is identifiable without your name is what can allow you to scale. So everything, every point of touch that you have with a client feels like an experience and feels like what you want your business to be. So for me, I've always thought about my experience as a customer and what I love and don't love, and I try to implement that in my business, and that's what our clients get. So just really thinking about, like, anything you put out there needs to be part of your brand and make identifiable to who you are. So it's okay to have a point of view and to not be a designer. That is everything to everybody. And honestly, I think that a lot of designers, when they start their business, think that they need to be able to do all styles and all looks. But because we kind of honed in on what our brand was going to be, that's actually what allowed us to get bigger and grow so quickly.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone listening with a question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry, we'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an [e-mail] if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. And if you're looking for even more great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com trade deals is produced by me, Caitlin Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you here next week.