Ask Us Anything: Emilie Munroe on why you should never charge a consultation fee

Summary

Trade Tales Episode Summary

Title: Ask Us Anything: Emilie Munroe on Why You Should Never Charge a Consultation Fee
Host/Author: Caitlin Petersen, Editor-in-Chief of Business of Home
Guest: Emilie Munroe, Founder of Studio Monroe
Release Date: May 28, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Trade Tales, Caitlin Petersen engages with Emilie Munroe, founder of Studio Monroe, to delve into the nuanced topic of charging consultation fees in the interior design industry. The discussion is framed around a listener's query about optimizing the client vetting process and determining the appropriate time to discuss fees.

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Client Vetting Process

Emilie emphasizes the importance of viewing client interactions as a two-way interview. She believes that selecting the right clients is as crucial as being selected by them. This mutual vetting ensures alignment in values, aesthetics, and project scope.

• Quote: “Our business is such a relational industry. People can go online and buy a sofa and a rug, but why are we joining together, client and designer?” – Emilie Munroe [16:21]

Emilie outlines her current intake process, which begins with a phone call rather than a questionnaire for direct referrals. This personalized approach helps establish a genuine connection from the outset.

• Quote: “If it's a direct referral, I just jump on a call.” – Emilie Munroe [18:20]

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Discussion on Consultation Fees

A central theme of the episode is whether to charge for initial consultations. Emilie firmly advises against it, advocating that the relationship and understanding between designer and client are more valuable than monetary transactions at this early stage.

• Quote: “No, do not charge for your design consultation.” – Emilie Munroe [14:18]

She argues that charging for consultations can deter potential clients and hinder the organic development of the designer-client relationship.

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Balancing Time and Value

Emilie acknowledges the struggle of balancing time invested in client inquiries with the uncertainty of project sign-ons. She highlights the mental and financial sustainability concerns of offering free consultations.

• Quote: “When I poured energy into conversations and site visits that don't ultimately lead to a signed contract, I'm left wondering if there's a better way to vet clients.” – Listener’s Query [01:37]

To address this, Emilie focuses on vetting clients effectively during initial interactions to ensure that the time spent is worthwhile.

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Effective Communication of Fees

When the topic of money arises, Emilie emphasizes transparency and honesty. She believes in discussing fees candidly once the client shows genuine interest, ensuring that both parties are aligned on the financial aspects before moving forward.

• Quote: “It's never about money. It's about putting out, doing more and more projects that are great with satisfied clients.” – Emilie Munroe [29:13]

She also stresses the importance of having a well-structured contract that clearly outlines fees and project scopes, reducing misunderstandings later on.

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Building Strong Client Relationships

Emilie shares her approach to creating long-term relationships with clients by involving them in the design process. This collaborative method fosters trust and ensures that the final outcome aligns with the client's vision and budget.

• Quote: “We have a furniture plan, and then we have like five sofas and four area rugs and three chandeliers... and we build the room together.” – Emilie Munroe [32:45]

By offering multiple options and backup plans, Emilie ensures that clients feel in control and satisfied with their investment.

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Managing Expectations and Budget

Emilie discusses common roadblocks such as budget misalignment and how she addresses them by providing detailed tracking and honest communication. She uses comprehensive spreadsheets to monitor project costs, time, and client satisfaction.

• Quote: “If it's not you, it will be somebody else. And like who am I excited to give these precious minutes to?” – Emilie Munroe [40:11]

Her methodical approach helps in setting realistic expectations and maintaining financial transparency with clients.

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Embracing Flexibility in Business

Reflecting on her firm's evolution, Emilie highlights the significance of adaptability. Studio Monroe has recently restructured its processes to offer more segmented pricing, allowing clients to focus on specific aspects of their projects without feeling overwhelmed.

• Quote: “What if we turn it on its head a little bit?... considering new ways of working.” – Emilie Munroe [10:37]

This flexibility not only enhances client satisfaction but also streamlines the internal workflow of her team.

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Advice for Designers

Emilie shares her best piece of advice: to let the business organically reveal its needs and directions. This philosophy has guided Studio Monroe through various growth phases, ensuring that the firm remains true to its core values while adapting to new challenges.

• Quote: “Let your business show you as much as you control it. And I have loved that...” – Emilie Munroe [41:56]

She encourages designers to focus on building meaningful relationships and maintaining integrity in their business practices.

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Conclusion

Emilie Munroe’s insights offer a compelling perspective on the delicate balance between valuing one's time and fostering genuine client relationships without the initial financial barrier of consultation fees. Her experience underscores the importance of effective client vetting, transparent communication, and adaptable business strategies in building a successful interior design firm.

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Notable Quotes

• “Our business is such a relational industry. People can go online and buy a sofa and a rug, but why are we joining together, client and designer?” – Emilie Munroe [16:21]
• “No, do not charge for your design consultation.” – Emilie Munroe [14:18]
• “It's never about money. It's about putting out, doing more and more projects that are great with satisfied clients.” – Emilie Munroe [29:13]
• “Let your business show you as much as you control it. And I have loved that...” – Emilie Munroe [41:56]

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Key Takeaways

• Client-Vetting: Treat initial client interactions as mutual interviews to ensure alignment in values and project scope.
• Consultation Fees: Avoid charging for initial consultations to foster genuine relationships and trust.
• Transparent Communication: Discuss fees transparently once genuine interest is established to prevent misunderstandings.
• Flexibility: Adapt business processes to offer segmented pricing and cater to diverse project needs.
• Relationship Building: Focus on long-term relationships and collaborative design processes to enhance client satisfaction.
• Business Evolution: Allow the business to organically grow and adapt to new challenges while maintaining core values.

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This episode serves as a valuable resource for interior designers seeking to refine their client acquisition strategies and establish a sustainable, client-centered business model.

Transcript

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in.

[Emily Munro]

Chief of business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything, a new show where I'll be tapping former Trade Tales guests to answer all of your questions about building a better design business. Some weeks we'll be workshopping a crisis, and others we'll take a step back.

[Caitlin Peterson]

To talk about the big picture.

[Emily Munro]

Things like embracing change, hiring, or how to level up. No question is out of bounds, no question is too large or too small, and we're keeping it confidential so that this is always a safe space to air your frustrations and share your fears. This week I'm excited to field a question from a designer who's wondering how to approach the client vetting process. She wants to know if she should be charging for a consultation before the client signs on to a project.

[Designer Guest]

I struggle between pouring a lot of time into each inquiry that comes through, like whether that's design call, sometimes even in person, walk through my consult, full consult before the client will sign on. And sometimes they do and then it's worth it and then sometimes they back away once fees are discussed.

[Emily Munro]

Our question asker is in the early days of her firm and she's fine tuning her processes, especially how to onboard new clients and when to discuss fees. As a team of one, her time is precious, and when she's poured energy into conversations and site visits that don't ultimately lead to a signed contract, she's left wondering if there's a better way to vet clients.

[Designer Guest]

I guess the first question would be how soon are you discussing fees when inquiries come in? And then by that same token, I have also tried hearing from other designers. Oh no, I communicate that right away. So. So I've communicated these early on and then often with this, I find that there's very little traction after like zero follow up. So are these just like not the right clients? It feels like I could be missing out of an opportunity here for like a connection that could be a project in the future. But is that also mentally sustainable for a business? And then follow up to that is being charged for complications? Okay, I also have mixed feelings about this.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What gives you pause about assigning a dollar amount to that time?

[Designer Guest]

I think it comes back to again, like maybe it's figuring out a little bit more like if it's going to be the right client or the right project?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I guess is that based on budget as a starting point or with like vibes or aesthetic or scope as a.

[Designer Guest]

Starting point, not budget as a starting point? But yes.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, are you realistic? In my ballpark yes, exactly.

[Designer Guest]

Are you realistic? In my ballpark, like do you have.

[Caitlin Peterson]

$2, $2,000, $200,000, what's your story?

[Designer Guest]

Exactly. But not necessarily even that. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'll give you an example. I have done consultations where the client is coming up to me immediately off the bat and saying hey, I would love your advice on this, your take on this, maybe some like tangible direction for where to go with materials or where to go with like layout. But my dad is a contractor, my cousin is a plumber. I don't need the service. I just want your take on it. I just want like that to me feels like a true consultation. Like to me this is why I have mixed feelings because I've been approached in that way a couple times now where I'm like that to me feels like it's very appropriate to like charge for that amount of time and then the amount of work associated with it.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That almost feels like an expert call in some ways.

[Designer Guest]

Exactly.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like I want to pick your brain, I want to access information and solutions and then I'm going to exit and do what I want with that.

[Designer Guest]

Exactly. But I've also been in scenarios, like I said, where I'm like going to meet with them in their space or next thing I know, you know, if I'm really tracking time, you know, I'm like two hours into being in their space and then that turns into a project. And to me I think of it as a part of the process more than I think of it as a consultation separately that I want to charge for. More often than not those open ended scenarios end up becoming clients, I think because of that initial investment on my end that I guess you could see as a consultation. So I think that that's where I have an experience.

[Emily Munro]

There are several issues at play here. One, how do you go about interviewing a client in the first place and what does it mean to make that process effective and efficient? Two, when on earth are you supposed to start talking about money? Do you want to make sure that you're vibing before bringing up your fees or should you lead with the numbers hoping that you scare off some of the tire kickers? And three, do you charge for your in person consultations? Our question asker has heard that she.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Should be charging a consultation fee, but.

[Emily Munro]

Something about it just didn't sit quite right with her. As we ended our call, I knew just who to connect with to help her find her footing. A designer who's firm in the belief that while clients might be interviewing you in those early phone calls and meetings, you're interviewing them right back. All that and more in just a moment. Plenty of brands will tell you that they want to be your one stop shop Four Hands actually delivers on that promise with more than 6,000 pieces in its line across categories like living, dining, bedroom, office, outdoor accessories and art. The company even entered the bath category last year with a collection of single and double vanities as well as damp rated lighting and mirrors. Plus, with more than 2,000 new introductions rolling out throughout the year, their latest designs are sure to keep your projects fresh and exciting. And there's always something new to discover. Even better, most of those items are in stock and ready to ship with the designer portal for real time inventory and high quality imagery to make the specification process stress free. Explore the benefits of shopping with Four Hands for your next [e-mail] Tradetales.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Today.

[Emily Munro]

I'm joined by former Trade Tales guest Emily Munro, whose San Francisco firm is currently enjoying an influx of projects with repeat clients. At the same time, the designer and her team are focused on re examining their systems and embracing a new sense of flexibility. In 2025, when Emily was on the show the first time, she explained how she proves to clients that she won't let them fail and how that starts before a contract is ever signed. I thought she'd be the perfect person to answer today's question.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hello, thank you so much for joining me today. Trade Tales listeners heard from us together back in 2022, which it's been a busy few years.

[Trade Tales Guest]

Well, you know, we moved into our studio space. I think that was in process when we spoke last. We have a beautiful new studio home in San Francisco. And then, you know, it's been an exciting time of reoccurring clients. This is a beautiful stage in a career where you've designed. Typically it's a core home or a family home and then the vacation homes begin. Ooh, I think it's a timing thing, you know, because the business I've had it for, let's see, ooh, is it 13 years now? So I mean if you in year three or four, you do the main house, life's shift, people are growing, you know, it's expanding, careers are enhancing. And so about year seven to 10, you start getting them coming back with either the new house or the vacation home. We got very lucky because one of the projects we completed was just an adorable, really energetic, eclectic bungalow in wine country here, California. And then our other project was a pied a terre in Paris for a client here in the Bay Area. So two very, very different and kind of unique, exciting first for us.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Does it feel different when you're doing that kind of work or when that's sort of added into the mix of the firm's day to day?

[Trade Tales Guest]

One difference is the trust is established and the rhythm is established, and on some level, the aesthetic is established. So there's like a naturalness, a confidence, an ease that comes with the process. And I would say specifically with vacation homes, it can be exciting because there usually is, like, a twist. I mean, it's a different mindset. It's a little bit more about pleasure and fun. And, like, since you've set a baseline in the core house, it's a little bit about how can we experiment? What's playful, what is. You know what I mean? What does travel and vacation mean to us, and how do we want to embody it in this space differently than our day to day? So this is great.

[Caitlin Peterson]

How did the studio change the vibe or the atmosphere at work for you? What does that contribute?

[Trade Tales Guest]

I really, you know, I had a vision for this new studio, a permanent home for the team. And I will say it has been an incredible three years of team development. I am thrilled and honored to be working with just a beautiful group of people. We've really come together, I think the project of the studio, then of course, just the energy of the space. And this year, we even went as far as year 13 of the business to make our kind of guiding principle of 2025 be flexibility. What if we turn it. Like, what if we turn it on its head a little bit? And I think we're so established. We have such a great routine. There's beautiful talent both on the internal, you know, office management facilities side, and then of course, on the external expediting design creative side. Like, what if we pushed our boundaries a little bit to consider new ways of working? So this has been fun. I'm thrilled to be at this point to kind of be rethinking even that which has been our cornerstones for so long.

[Caitlin Peterson]

How does being flexible show up? Or what are some kind of tangible ways that the team has put that into practice?

[Trade Tales Guest]

You know, when I was thinking about flexibility, I was thinking a lot about our processes because we have, for example, we typically price projects holistically, so we take extra time after designing a home to price every single element into one comprehensive package. So from your paint and your window treatments to your side table and your table lamp, the wallpaper, the electrical install of your chand chandelier, everything in one comprehensive document with the intention of clients really feeling like they have their arms wrapped around the entire scope of the job that they're engaging in. You know, no mystery. You know, I don't want it to feel like, oh, we have the most fabulous chandelier. You must have it. And you know, whatever X amount of money later, they're like, wow, that really got out of hand. We didn't expect it to end up there. So we've really been dedicated to this approach. And recently we realized, you know, sometimes that amount of time it takes to gather every last detail for these various elements. It might serve our clients better to say, okay, we're going to focus on right now the products. And then you will have a second order for installation. Or maybe the first one is construction related materials and the second one is freestanding furnishing items. You know, this kind of outlook, we've been breaking it into pieces a little bit more and, you know, experimenting. And you know, the truth is, so far it seems to be having information. Trinkle in actually is providing the same amount of access to understanding and control as our prior method. Just kind of in a different format. So it's been fun. And I mean, this may end up being something client specific and project specific, different personalities, different scopes. But it's been fun to kind of try it out and see how people respond.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What are you most excited about these days when you walk into work?

[Trade Tales Guest]

We have a very diverse array of aesthetics that we're working within, which is fun because we don't really signature style. So when we can have different client profiles, it's like very mentally stimulating. Like we're right now working on an Eichler in Palo Alto, you know, which is a very traditional, you know, 50s 60s vibe, you know, home style that's popular here in the Bay Area. So fun. We're going like totally retro. So that has been a new kind of creative pursuit. And we have a more traditional style, very classic construction and furnishing project here in the city we're working on. We have a home in Sonoma that's a little more ranch house. We're building to eco specifications there. So beautiful materials, kind of a new way of thinking about sourcing and building for us. So that's been really fun. So I would just say it's nice to have a diverse palette of client work going on with a great team. I mean, what's much love about that?

[Emily Munro]

Are you ready to give some advice?

[Trade Tales Guest]

Oh, born ready.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Okay. So this week we Are fielding a question from a designer who is weighing whether or not to charge for her initial consultations. I think she is maybe going pretty far down the path in conversation with clients, not charging, but hitting some roadblocks when she starts talking about money.

[Trade Tales Guest]

Okay, well, I can begin very simply and say, no, do not charge for your design consultation. So I can make it very clear that is my opinion there. Just. No, but like every question, this is about a lot more than that detail. Because what I'm actually hearing is what is an efficient and effective client vetting? And I guess we'll say up to signing onto a project vetting, to signature process, 100% and even what are the goals? I mean, what are you even trying to achieve in this segment of the relationship? You know, and I love using relationship comparisons when I talk about business because we are in such a relational industry. People can go online and buy a sofa and a rug. You know, why are we joining together, client and designer? And it's, it's about so much more than the drapery panels. You know, it's about getting to know someone, understanding, you know, of course, their aesthetic, what colors they like, are they traditional? Are they boho? Like, you know, what's the vibe? But it's also, you know, I mean, not to be dramatic, but like, what are your dreams and goals? Are you hoping to entertain? Are you more private? Do you want to relax? Do you want to be energized? You know, are your children 2 and 3? But we want to be thinking about when they're 6 and 10 or, you know, maybe they're 14. And we're talking about how do we get them to come hang out at the cool house when they come home from college. You know, these are, these really are ways to think about designer and client relationships as a guide. Utilizing a physical environment to create people's aesthetic and functional goals in their life, which is finding that right fit is about more than a 15 minute conversation or, you know, a $200 design fee. It's. It's worth more to really be sure it's the right connection.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Can you walk me through what your intake process looks like today?

[Trade Tales Guest]

So for me, again, I look at it from a relational standpoint because it's really a two way interview because it's your creative energy and your ideas and your time that are going to now be committing to eight months to five years with this person. So do you want that?

[Caitlin Peterson]

And hopefully a vacation home in 10 years?

[Trade Tales Guest]

That's right. I mean, listen, tell me about it. Like, exactly. So it could be a 25 year relationship. And like, I mean, I know for me, I mean I'm on a hike and I'm thinking about a client's house. I mean, I'm shampooing my hair in the shower and I'm like, okay, wait, how are we gonna do this? So that's how the creative process works. And you're gonna invite them in as well. So in the beginning it's harder but to realize you are both getting to know each other. And don't forget that in this journey, in the conversation as they begin. So I keep it simple. So we do have a new client questionnaire. That's a Google form that is very simple. And so if it's a like a cold referral or someone who found us on Instagram, we will send this out to get, you know, basic details, just some real basic information so we have some sense. So we created this form thinking it was the most efficient way to gather information. And then I'm prepared when I jump on a call. But we found, and this was, this was a key. Learning is. Oh man. I mean it was probably four years ago I received a client referral. So one client referred a friend and I got an email like, here's an email introduction to my friend. Do I think you'd be a great fit? And I said, oh my gosh, this is awesome. Here's our new client questionnaire. Please fill this out, we'll hop on a call. And it felt cold. Like when it's a direct referral, people may not really receive well being told to fill out a Google form.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Right.

[Trade Tales Guest]

Which I respect. I mean, I hadn't even thought about it. It was just protocol. It was our process. And now we kind of. If it's a direct referral, I just jump on a call. So we have a Google form. We use that for new inquiries that aren't direct referrals. If it is a direct referral, some type of outreach or introduction, either way, the first step is a phone call with me. So I keep Those calls to 15 to 30 minutes for us at Studio Monroe. I always say like we like to take a level of the home or a section, you know, to begin. Because also sometimes people just need to begin to understand even the process they're engaging in. So we don't just do window treatments for you or replace your living room sofa. Like it just doesn't inspire me. It's not even about any business model. I just, I want to get to know you. I want to build something thing together. So this is something, this first phone call, like they'll say, I love your work. Anyway, we just bought this new house right now we need light fixtures and you know, a stair runner. And what? And I'll just explain right off the bat, like, this is amazing. You know, I, I can refer you to a million people who could support you with these. But for us, we really want to engage in full room redesigns to give you a holistic impact. And you know, I can now say this very confidently. We determine that maybe it's not a scoped fit easy, but you know, you have a nice call, you get to know them and you know, we just talk about what's the vibe, how fast do you want to work? It's really about energy and understanding the client's level of education. You know, they might have never done a job before. So, you know, it's not necessarily a barrier, the confusion or the lack of education about timeline. But it's a great thing to talk about in this first call.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Do you have a list of things you want to know when you hang up the phone? And also, do you have a list of things that you want them to know about you?

[Trade Tales Guest]

I would say no. You gain a lot from also where they direct the conversation. Yeah, so if I'm not asked about fees, I don't bring it up. I mean, almost everyone does. I would say 95% of people do. But I just actually went through the whole all the way to contract without talking about anything related to money. And now they've defined the number and we're getting ready to begin. So, you know, I let them drive because it also gives me information about what is important to them. Obviously there's many people where budget is at the very top, top of mind question. And that really drives the beginning of the conversation. And I think this again ties back to your designer's question about how to handle this topic because it's a curious one. I think there are so many different types of clients. You know, we happen Studio Monroe gets many first time clients for whatever reason. And we've had I would say maybe, meaning first time working with a designer. And then I would say maybe 35% of our clients have worked with designers before and the rest, this is their first time. And so they truly just do not know. You know, they're like, you're like, what is your budget for purchasing? And they're like, you tell me. And then I'm like, I used to think, is this a trick question?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Right?

[Trade Tales Guest]

What would I tell you? Like, but then I Realized, like, that's actually an educated thing to say. They're saying, we don't know what it costs to furnish a home. Could you help us understand? You know, so the real value of a designer is so much more than picking out items that fit and look good together. You know, style is so subjective. And also these days, clients can procure on their own. They can go directly to retail establishments who have in house designers. And if they're willing to have a home purchased entirely from one retail store, I mean, they can have.

[Caitlin Peterson]

They get the design for free. Yeah.

[Trade Tales Guest]

And I mean, I just was asked this last week at an interview in person. So after the initial 15 to 30 minute phone call, the next step is always meeting in person. And I have had people try to have me send a contract without an in person meeting, and I will not do it. So I did one of these in person meetings just last week and was asked the question, okay, you have an hourly rate rate and you charge a markup on product. I could go to a retailer and I could just pay no hourly rate. And they will specify the whole house. And I mean, their title is senior designer, so why would I pay an hourly rate with you? And I could have that. And I just said, well, this is so interesting because really what we're talking about here is just two completely separate topics. I mean, it's just a completely different value proposition to have a house full of furniture from one store. I mean, and that works great for many people and it's streamlined and effective. That's one path. You know, the path you'll take with us is just a completely different journey. I mean, this is about curating a physical environment that no one's seen before. Kind of creating just inspiration and interest, you know, just getting to know you, going on a journey of what is your future and who do I want to be, and creating space that family and friends can, you know, enjoy, and that can lead you through the next 15 years of life. I mean, it's just a completely different approach to having furniture in the home. But I had to be able to just say it very straightforward, because it's up to the client to decide. I mean, both options lead to a furnished house, right? So we do this meeting. If that meeting ends and I'm like, great, send me paperwork. I think another great tip is I have developed a contract I feel really good about in a format that makes sense to me, that I can easily input the specifics for each interview. So, I mean, actually taking the information I gather at a job site and putting it into the agreement paperwork work is, I mean, at this point might be a 15 minute process, maybe 20. You know, at the end of the day, if your billing is going to be an issue, it's going to be an issue whether you say it first or last. However, building the connection, keeping the person out of their left side of their brain, the analytical side, and giving them a chance to move into their heart side, you know, their creative side, talking to them about their environment, really helping illustrate a vision and a process, you know, that's where you may be able to make the shift of them understanding why they'd make the investment.

[Emily Munro]

When you meet with prospective clients, you're looking for alignment in budget, of course, but also in values. You want clients who are dreaming of tapping into the transformation of their space that only you can bring provide. And as you work to create that sense of sanctuary in each and every project, you'll want to turn to the latest offerings from Forehands, a collection of furniture, rugs, decor and more. That's all about comfort, serenity and escape. Featuring simple lines, natural materials and artisan construction, these pieces are truly designed to lift the spirits and stand the test of time. Explore the benefits of shopping with Four Hands for your next [e-mail] Tradetales.

[Caitlin Peterson]

How do you drive the conversation when you're in person? I think I've talked to designers who feel like, you know, sometimes they go to that in person consultation and maybe they are charging a fee because it makes them feel safer delivering like that off the cuff value or ideas.

[Trade Tales Guest]

So for me, that is the retainer that we request when we send out the contract. For me, the initial meeting is about vetting. You know, it's a different mindset. I don't go in saying they're interviewing me, I am vetting them. Yeah, I mean we're doing it both ways and you know, it's obviously a two way street, but I mean there's only so many minutes in a day and this is a consulting, you know, design time oriented industry. So if it's not you, it will be somebody else. And like who am I excited to give these precious minutes to? And, and it matters because there should be that connection. I always, always encourage the people I meet and interview to interview multiple designers. I always say we are so diverse and different. There are probably a hundred female designers in San Francisco within a 5 year age range of me that can do this job. So you will be taken care of, but just it should be the person that you're Connected with, excited about. It should be a business format that you feel, you know, safe and comfortable with because, I mean, everyone does things so differently. Get out there, date around, and then make a choice.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You're not then going into that meeting saying, like, I think we should move this here, or what about blue for this room? Like, you're really not talking about, I will do this solution. Okay.

[Trade Tales Guest]

You want to give a hint that you have some interesting ideas? I mean, you know, I think I also, I can talk fast and on the fly, but my creative process is one that's. I have a very technical creative process. Like, I really need an autocad drawing. I, like, see the shapes fitting into the room and, like, clearances. I just always start from a more technical perspective. So I actually, it's not something that I'm compelled to do on the fly in an interview. You know, I mean, of course I'll say, like, huh, like, you know, obviously, like a statement chandelier would look amazing in here, but it's not necessarily something that I'm compelled to do. So, I mean, we share ideas and. And we can talk about vibe and flow and things like that, but I think to get the best work out of me, and of course, I have a team who they all kind of work in different ways, but I required the time. So, I mean, you want to leave something for the exciting design meeting, but also you want to show a little bit about how you think and what you could deliver.

[Caitlin Peterson]

When clients do ask about money, how do you talk about it? In the getting to know you phase.

[Trade Tales Guest]

The end goal is not. It's never about money. It's about putting out, doing more and more projects that are great with satisfied clients. That's the bigger picture end goal. And yes, this is a business, and yes, you have to charge design time and you charge things for what you're purchasing. I mean, of course. But as far as the ultimate end goal, it's really about doing more great work. And I can say that confidently. And then this client in the interview can decide. I mean, is that what he wants to be a part of or is it a different, you know, different model or different billing rate? Great. I mean, that's why you're having these initial honest conversations.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Was there a time earlier in the firm where you had kind of greener clients and where maybe the misalignment of expectation around budget was greater?

[Trade Tales Guest]

So the contract, the way we design, you know, some designers and I spell this out for clients during the interview process. They will bring you their vision for a room. And, you know, some designers also have a more specific aesthetic. So when you meet them, you go through their portfolio, you really get the vibe of their look. And then, you know, they will come into the meeting and they will have selected a living room for you. Like, we love the sofa with this table and these chair, you know, and this is the look and it has a price because these are the items that are their suggestion. I like to kind of choose my own adventure design. You know, we don't really have a specific aesthetic like we have because, you know, maybe 60% of our clients are working with a designer for the first time. They may be on a journey of self discovery, you know, realizing, oh, I don't like bear bulbs or wow, you know, powder coated metal. Feels like really like a schoolhouse to me. I don't want that. I mean, they may not even know this to tell you they're learning. So when we present, we have a furniture plan, and then we have like five sofas and four area rugs and three chandeliers and, you know, five sets of dining room chairs to go with three different table options. And we build the room together. It's very fun, it's very dynamic. It's very collaborative with the client. And what's interesting about this approach is there'll be a range of prices. So we may custom draw a cool dining table, and then we might have one that's from a showroom, and maybe there just happens to be a design within reach table that's perfect. And so as we go through the process of selecting items for rooms, we'll just be honest and say, wow, you're picking all showroom pieces here. And sometimes we put an option B behind. I'll say, listen, I love all of this for you. It's perfect. This is the dream house for you. But hey, if you want to pick a couple option Bs, we'll put them behind. And if you get this client order for your house and it's like, you know, one room or space doesn't seem right. We have secondary options for you to consider. So this is like a very collaborative way of designing where there's control on the client's part. Like they can fall in love with things that are unique and different. We're opening the door to, you know, makers and designers, you know, craftspeople, and, you know, if it just turns out in the guest room, they were not prepared for an $8,500, you know, reading chair.

[Emily Munro]

Great.

[Trade Tales Guest]

We have a little backup option to help shift. It's so the Concept of overall budget is really important. I need to be sure that the general chunk that they are looking to invest in furniture is reasonable for the scope desired. And we have some tools and tricks to fine tune. You know, if it turns out the selections are putting them above that amount. And also there, as I say to people, you're coming to us to see like cool things that you'd never think of on your own. So let us do that. And you know, maybe there's a ship of 15,000 or 50,000, who knows what because they've now seen things they never could have thought of and they're super psyched.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What are the most common roadblocks to signing the contract?

[Trade Tales Guest]

You know, hourly rate, more budget. I mean, I think it's more overall purchasing budget. You know, people often just don't understand how much it costs. And I get it. I mean, I've done this for so many years. And even now, post Covid prices have gone up so significantly. And now I don't even know with this whole tariff topic what's going to happen right there was. I mean, I feel like prices increased by 15%. So even for me, when I was thinking about what things were, I look at, you know, I don't even know price per square foot for machine made carpet. I mean, it's just like these things you don't think about and they've just shifted 15% higher. So, you know, we, you know, sometimes people think they have a project and they don't, you know, they've just bought their starter home. It's like so exciting. And they just don't have the budget to furnish it that to get the amount of rooms that they're seeking to the look they desire. And that's real and that's okay. So, you know, this is again, great. Have the conversation maybe in two years they're ready. We track every project we install. I have the most insane Excel. It's like past Z in the Alphabet in columns. It's so much data from square foot by room, contract amount, final purchasing, design time, all of this data because I want to be able to give accurate projections, do this because we are in an artistic field. You're going to meet people and you're going to want to tell them you can do it. Because it happens to me still, after all these years, I'm like, oh, that's so cool. I would love to do this. And then they're just not ready. I mean, you know, there just might not be. It's like, no, like, this is really what it's going to be from the data from your own company so that you stand up for yourself and give them accurate information that you can stand by as well. And then if it's just the truth, then, you know, you don't have to feel like I screwed up and I lost out on this client. It's like, well, that was my truth. And if they, you know, if somehow I misrepresented that and they signed on, they would just be unhappy. And that's absolutely the last thing you want to have happen. So that confidence comes from the knowledge of your studio's, like, real numbers.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What are some of the most essential things that you're tracking in that spreadsheet that are useful to contextualize for clients what their project is going to cost?

[Trade Tales Guest]

So we divide them by interiors only, just furnishings, construction only. We're, you know, tearing down and redesigning your kitchen and your bathrooms. Then there are both interior and construction projects where we're doing both.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Right.

[Trade Tales Guest]

So it's curious because when you're tracking the same things, but the projects have different overall scopes, you know, it makes an impact, but we do our best. So I think purchasing per square foot is interesting. You know, like, how big is the house and how much did they purchase? Or I would say square footage of the areas designed. You know, maybe you didn't do the basement or the attic or something, you know, whatever you want to get the accurate designed space to. Purchasing amount. We track a lot, lot of our process. Again, so we track principal, senior designer, you know, the different tiers and how many hours they spend on each job. So for this purchasing amount, how many hours by the different positions. And then we even track different phases of the job. You know, the design phase, the procurement phase, and installation phase. And what do hours look like in the different phases? How efficient are we being? And more than numbers, because all this is about, you know, cost, time, billing, and purchasing. Something that I love that we track is time, because I'm very proud, like from signing the contract, how quickly is the first client order approved and the purchasing begin? Because clients care about that. That's not money. That is their time. And as we know, time is our most valuable asset. So you hire us, and within six weeks you have a client order. And that means we've designed, we've presented, we've priced, and we've given you a pricing document. Again, that might not be a value for every firm. For us, it has been something that we've capitalized on. So, you know, it's not just Always numbers, you know, being able to tell potential clients, we're ready to work with you now, or, you know, whatever. We are set up with a process that allows us to generate a design product for you within this many weeks. You know, ask other people what, you know, there's maybe three months. These are other topics beyond money that can impact a client signing on to a project.

[Caitlin Peterson]

One thing I love hearing you say in different ways is this idea that whether it's money or time or whatever, it is like having it not work out is totally normal and totally okay. And maybe this question and this idea of kind of getting far into the process and then having it not happen, having the client not sign, is actually a lot more normal than maybe anyone talks about.

[Trade Tales Guest]

Even taking it one step farther, it may be the greatest success that they walked away. I mean, this may be actually show you you're doing a great job in your client signing process. Because signing the wrong client doesn't do good for anyone.

[Emily Munro]

Right.

[Trade Tales Guest]

And word will get out there, you know, word will get out there that, you know, it was misrepresented or, I mean, or the personalities are off or whatever it is. I mean, this is. It's a creative industry. This is your energy and ideas, you know, along with process, procedures, whatever, but your energy and ideas that you're selling. And, you know, it has to be desired and respected for this to work. So having people walk away because you've honestly presented the business model that works for you and the values that you can bring to their job, Great. I mean, as long as you feel like you said your piece, then I think you're in a really good spot. Move on to the next.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Do you have a sense of, like, what percentage of inquiries should convert to assigned job? And does that change over time?

[Trade Tales Guest]

To be honest, I mean, I used to be so much more aware of the no's, and now, I mean, I don't know. I talk to so many people. I get rejected all the time. All the time I get rejected. And I don't even know if these people move on and do jobs with other designers. I mean, it's like business interviews. You're like, why? You know, I used to think, like, I wish I could get feedback. Why wasn't it me? And now I'm like, okay, it wasn't me.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Trade Tales Guest]

And I mean, maybe I educated people to the point of, like, them realizing we're not ready, you know, and we're not going to pursue this. Or, you know, they realize we need a different business model or we only need an architect to, you know, help us because it's so construction. I mean, you have to be comfortable with the unknown. And what I do is I like to just try to feel in my bones, does this feel like the right fit? And that's when it matters, is when it really feels like the right fit. And if they say yes or no, and I would say at this stage, for me, I mean, it's like 90% of the ones where you're like, this is great.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, please, please, please, please, please, please. Yeah.

[Trade Tales Guest]

Yes. You know, and, you know, and then there are ones where I'm like, oh, the house is cool. But I don't know, like, they're, you know, I'm not sure about the vibe or like, the vibe's amazing, but the scope is, you know, and you're like, I'd make it work. We would do it. This could be great. But you're kind of like. And those summer yeses, some are no's. And so in my opinion, if the medium ones you get medium amounts of time and the ones you're super jazzed for, you get a majority of the time, then you're probably doing a good job. But ask a business coach. That's just my vibe that helps me sleep at night.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I love that. Well, before I let you go, I'm wondering, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

[Trade Tales Guest]

When I founded my business, a vendor of mine was like, just remember, because he owned his own rug company, he was like, your business will show you what it needs. You know, you'll have a vision. Let it tell you as it grows the direction it needs to take. You know, you never know what type of clients you'll end up having or what model or way you want to work. Let your business show you as much as you control it. And I have loved that because this business has shown me new directions, new ways of thinking, new ways it needed to be supported, and new ways of kind of presenting our end product and interacting with colleagues and clients. And it's nice. It's nice to be. To view the business as a separate entity that you are nurturing as well as following.

[Emily Munro]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone listening. Listening with a question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry, we'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an [e-mail] if you're enjoying trade tales, please leave a review on Apple podcasts to help others discover the show. And if you're looking for even more great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com trade deals is produced by me, Caitlin Pierce Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You here next week.