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Ask Us Anything: Melissa Oholendt’s go-to interview questions for new hires
00:34:09
Melissa Oholendt of Minnesota- and Colorado-based firm Oho Interiors on how to reveal a candidate’s true ambitions, evaluating skillset through a key question, and knowing when to call for backup.
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- [00:05]
A
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything where we're tapping your favorite Trade Tales guests to answer all of your questions about building a better design business. Some weeks we'll be stepping in to solve a pressing issue. In others, we'll take a step back to talk about the big picture. Things like embracing change, hiring, or how to level up. No question is out of bounds. No question is too large or too small. And we're keeping it confidential so that this is always a safe space to air your frustrations and share your fears. This week we're hearing from a designer who is currently interviewing candidates for her firm's first full time hire brass path. It is equal parts exciting and daunting.
- [01:02]
B
I see other design firms hiring right now, but I haven't had a full time hire yet and I know it's such a big deal, just like having someone's career in my hands and I want to cherish that and help people grow and give them a place to grow. So it just feels like a really weighty decision, especially knowing what the economic times are.
- [01:23]
A
Kind of looking like this designer has set her sights on growth and she doesn't plan to do it alone, but she is approaching the decision carefully. She's eager to bring on a team member who can share her workload, but she also wants to devote the time and attention it takes to be a good boss.
- [01:42]
B
I have several projects going on and I've been able to manage it myself, but I find myself more and more as the projects go on, only working in the business and not on the business. And I really want to be able to delegate some of the project work so that I can continue to grow because I do want to have a bigger studio than just me.
- [02:03]
A
Would this be a full time hire?
- [02:04]
B
Yes, full time hire. I think I really want to hire a designer. I've kind of thought about just hiring admin or just hiring procurement, but I'm really okay passing along some of the design work and like having someone come in and assist me there. So I think I really want to hire a designer.
- [02:21]
A
That's amazing. Where, where do you see that giving you opportunities then to flex new or different muscles in your business or on your business?
- [02:29]
B
We moved from San Francisco to Nashville, so ideally it would give me the opportunity to really just invest in the like new market here and really pour into just like meeting people and growing my business in the new location.
- [02:43]
A
When you say you want to hire a designer, are you open to hiring someone with A bit of experience or is this an entry level job?
- [02:49]
B
I was kind of looking for more of an intermediate position. I don't think I necessarily have the time to fully train someone right now. And I want to make sure that when I hire a junior, I definitely have time for that. Also, it is scary to hire a senior. So the intermediate felt like a good
- [03:05]
A
in between to me in terms of like, I think I can afford this and also this person is immediately useful in my business.
- [03:12]
B
Exactly, exactly.
- [03:14]
A
Is there anything else that's giving you pause as you consider making this move?
- [03:19]
B
It's really important to me, I think just with my past in the design world. I worked for two firms before I started my own firm. And at one firm I really felt like I was developing a career. And I love my job. I love the people I worked with. And the other one, I felt like it was more of just a job. It was like a 9 to 5 and I couldn't wait to leave. And I really want to be able to give someone that career side of it instead of just the job side of it.
- [03:45]
A
Totally. What is your big overarching question that we can help answer?
- [03:50]
B
A. How to know when it's the right time? I don't want to jump in too fast, but I also don't want to be too risk averse and then be kind of, how do you know when they're the right fit? I hear people say, like, you get this gut feeling and you know, I can trust my gut to a certain extent, but I also want it to be a pretty principled decision.
- [04:11]
A
This question gets to the heart of what's so hard about hiring. You're asking yourself, does this person have the right skills for the job? Do they seem like they want to stay and get invested in the work that I'm doing? Could they grow here and do they want that? But you're also asking yourself, do I have enough time to teach someone how to succeed in this role? Am I prepared to help them develop professionally? And in this moment, the economy looms large. Will unpredictability in the marketplace suddenly leave the firm unable to support this new hire? The good news is this designer is asking all the right questions. As we ended our call, I knew just who to connect with for those insights. Someone with a top to bottom approach to hiring that includes a thorough vetting of each candidate. No gut instinct necessary. All that and more in just a moment. Today's question is all about building out your team. That's the employees you hire, but it's the vendors you lean on to help you get your projects across the finish line. And that's where fourhands comes in. The company's deep commitment to helping designers deliver exceptional results for their clients is built into the very fiber of its business. Fourhands offers thousands of trend proof styles made with quality materials, packed and shipped with care and intention, and backed by a best in class claims process that delivers fast, reliable support when designers need it most. There is nothing better than knowing that your vendors are in your corner. And that's a guarantee when you're working with four hands. Explore the benefits of shopping with forehands for your next project@fourhands.com Tradetales today I'm joined by Melissa Oland as a guest on Trade Tales. Last month she shared her thoughtful approach to cultivating her nine person team, which is spread across offices in Colorado and Minnesota. I thought she'd be the perfect person to answer today's question. Melissa, welcome back to the show.
- [06:33]
C
Oh, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to chat about this topic.
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A
How have you been? What have you been up to this spring?
- [06:38]
C
Oh man, so many things. We are like within inches of installing a couple multi year projects that are just so exciting to see come to fruition. And somewhat surprisingly I've hired someone else. So now we're a team of 10 which is.
- [06:54]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [06:55]
C
Yeah.
- [06:55]
A
Well, congratulations. Thank you. What is inches away actually mean and how does it feel to be that way on several jobs?
- [07:04]
C
So it means that we have, we have back to back installs in June, so they are mere weeks away. In fact, I just did a site visit for one of them in Tennessee this last week and realized it was like a month almost to the day for install. And then before that we have another, another install of another multi year project and it just, it's kind of crazy to see it all come together. Honestly. Sometimes there's a bit of a like, well I hope we're as good as we think we are on paper element to it. But seeing all the things come together, all the, you know, light fixtures actually come out of the boxes and the paints go up on the wall like it's, it's incredibly fulfilling in a way that I think every designer can really identify with.
- [07:47]
A
What does install day or week or whatever that duration is mean for your firm? What are you doing during that sort of final push to the finish?
- [07:56]
C
For us, that's all furniture typically and I will say that sometimes there's some overlap with like a wallpaper installer, but it's furniture. And then we have our window treatment workroom is on site with us. And then we have an art installer that is a part of that as well. That's just. Yeah, it's. It's so fun. It. And it's usually there's, you know, loud music, and team is just high energy, and we're unpacking boxes and covered in styrofoam and, you know, surrounded by trash bags. But, you know, pull it together by the end of the week, for sure.
- [08:32]
A
What is your favorite part of welcoming the client back in? Is there anything that you do to really get beyond actually, you know, the design itself? Is there anything you do as sort of a finishing touch to welcome the client back home?
- [08:44]
C
Yeah, we're really intentional about kind of setting a scene for them. And so we will light candles, and we will kind of put on some music, and then we usually have kind of a bottle of champagne cooling in the fridge that we crack open, hand it over to them, and kind of walk it. Walk them through piece by piece and just let them really absorb it. Kind of tell the stories about why we chose some of the accessories that we did. Kind of talk to them about maybe any discrepancies that might be there, things that might still be missing, but we just really try to make it this really joyous moment of really turning their home back over to them.
- [09:24]
A
That's awesome. Are you ready to give some advice?
- [09:27]
C
Oh, I'm so ready to give advice. I don't know if I'm qualified, but I'm ready.
- [09:31]
A
I think you're qualified. This week, we are fielding a question from a designer who is actively interviewing for her first hire. She is worried about, in my opinion, all of the right things, like creating a good work environment and whether the economy will shake the stability she's able to offer this person. But I want to tackle. How do you know when you're ready to hire somebody?
- [09:56]
C
Yeah, honestly, that is the question, I think for all of us who have moved beyond kind of being a solo firm, I think the answer is slightly different for everyone listening to your question asker. She already is asking the exact question she should be asking. And so I feel like I would definitely tell her she's ready. She's ready to make that hire because she's already thinking about the right things. I think there's some elements to being ready from both from a mindset perspective, that's a huge piece of the puzzle. The fact that she's even thinking about creating a culture for this employee already is so Key to the piece of the puzzle. I don't think, I mean, I think I can say with certainty I was not thinking about that. But I definitely think the financial piece of the puzzle tends to be the biggest element and the thing that most people just don't ever feel ready for, honestly. And so I think being ready to take the leap and have the confidence that you will make it work. And if you don't make it work, then, you know, kind of worst case scenario is that you're, you're laying someone off. And yes, that is awful and we don't want to do that. But it's not as if your business kind of goes down with it. So I think, I think she's asking all the right questions. I think being, being mindful of where you are at financially. I think being mindful about the work that you have coming in and where your project load is at, and I think being really focused on kind of what you want that first hire to be be are all like key pieces of the puzzle that your question asker is already asking.
- [11:36]
A
You know, she mentioned the economy and just saying, you know, I'm doing the math, I think I'm good for a while. But also everything seems so uncertain. How do I bank on that? I think that's a question every firm has to kind of ask itself, whether it's one hire or 10.
- [11:54]
C
Yeah.
- [11:54]
A
How do you think about that?
- [11:56]
C
The longer I do this, honestly, I see how cyclical this same question tends to be and how often we're asking ourselves this over and over. And so I think, yes, absolutely. Having eyes on the economy and kind of understanding the ebbs and flows of it, but not necessarily letting it control, you know, kind of these big overarching business decisions. Because the reality is that hiring can take, you know, hiring the right person can take at least a month, if not much, much longer, like three to four months. You know, if you're really dedicated to finding that right person and they don't kind of fall into your lap right away and the economy is going to be in a completely different scenario then than it is now. And so sometimes just throwing a little bit of caution to the wind and saying, I can see what it is now, but I know it's going to be different even on that that person's first day is kind of a key piece of being a business owner is really just understanding that this is a cyclical question we're going to be asking ourselves in one ver or another. And so kind of just going with the business needs over letting the economy drive your choice.
- [13:05]
A
What should the interview process look like at this stage?
- [13:09]
C
Yeah, you know that old adage of fire fast, hire slow. I really think that that is very, very, very true, Especially in cases where I have hired quickly and fired slowly. I think it is a key piece of the puzzle because I think having those conversations and repeat conversations and having, you know, more time in person with this person before you're making a formal offer is really important, because not only is this person representing your brand, but they're also, you know, doing work that is supposed to be alleviating work on your plate. And so making sure that they have the appropriate technical skill set, if that is part of the job, making sure that they have certainly kind of the right aptitude and attitude for the job is a huge piece of the puzzle. And then there inevitably there's just going to be an element of trusting. You know, you can't. When you date people, you just can't know everything about them until you're. Honestly, sometimes until you're years into it. And even then, you get surprised by. Sometimes pleasantly surprised, but surprised by things. And so you do. You do as much due diligence as you can on the front end. But I think a little bit there is an element of really throwing, again, a little caution to the wind and making that higher, but doing it in a really smart way and doing it slowly.
- [14:34]
A
How would you advise this designer to structure that process? Like, how many times can you reasonably meet with someone? What kinds of questions should you be asking? How do you test for design skills?
- [14:47]
C
Yeah, that's a great question. So we have a first round of interviews where, you know, any new candidate is meeting with myself and my business partner, Grace. Once they sort of were asking all the questions about, you know, these kind of screener questions of depending on the position, like, what is your experience with cad? You know, how long have you been doing this? Tell us about yourself? Kind of those things, trying to get gut reactions on who they are and their skill set. And then we do bring them for. In for a second interview with the rest of the team. That tends to be a much longer interview and definitely tends to maybe sometimes feel like, you know, that. That, like, interview scenario where, like, the spotlight's on you and people are drilling you.
- [15:30]
A
The lie detector test.
- [15:31]
C
Yes, exactly. Exactly. It might be a little akin to that, but it, you know, based on our company culture, it's very friendly. But then we also, for senior designer roles, we really make sure that we do kind of what we call a hiring Experiment. And so what we do is that we give them a room to design, and we want both construction finishes and furniture finishes, and then we ask them to come present that to us as a team. And so, you know, there are some specifications spelled out in there and that, like, we want at least one wall to be elevated. We want the plan view done for the room. So there's a little bit of testing of technical drawing skills in there, but also we want to see how they present, and we want to see what they present. And, you know, you kind of have to understand your threshold for what kid, what you think can be taught. You know, I think there's a level of client interaction that is really hard to teach people how to lean into in terms of presenting and selling. You know, selling without selling is kind of our mentality. It's a really hard thing to teach. It's a really kind of instinctual thing. But design skills can definitely be taught. But I do think that you need to understand kind of where your threshold is. I know that she had said she really wanted someone who could hit the ground running. And in that case, you really want someone who is going to be able to walk in with the confidence to present and also with the skill set to be able to pull together rooms even with your review, because that review time takes. That review process takes time. But you want someone to have that kind of innate skill set that can design in the aesthetic that you are already known for. Is that the hardest role to fill, a senior designer? Yeah, probably. Honestly, yes. Just because I think it takes so much confidence. But it also takes someone who has been trained up in the industry in one, you know, like probably in multiple ways, maybe by one firm, maybe by multiple firms, and you're asking them to come into your firm and really do things your way.
- [17:42]
A
Right. Like, I love what you know, but also, can you forget some of it?
- [17:46]
C
Right, right. Or can you? You know, especially for someone who's going from kind of zero employees to one employees, like, she's going to be building the plane as she's flying it. And so there's a level of, you know, for me, my first hire, I knew these. These skill gaps that I had that I wanted to fill. And one of them was someone who really did understand kind of a formal firm process, because I didn't have that. But maybe it sounds like your question asker does have that. And so maybe she is looking for someone, you know, hit the ground running, but she's not necessarily looking for someone to fill in information gaps for her she really wants this person to kind of jump in and execute the process that she's been executing for clients. And so I think that kind that takes some skills of being able to find someone who is willing to adjust who they are to be exactly who you need them to be. And, you know, obviously that sounds a little pie in the sky, but I do think that there is that level of want for a senior designer for sure.
- [18:52]
A
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- [19:57]
C
I do think so. I think the times where I have not followed that instinct or ignored, you know, kind of made up, like, I think this will be okay. I think we'll figure it out. You know, where I've ignored red flags, I think I have. That rooster has come to roost and proven to be very problematic for both the company culture and then me as an employer as well. So I do think, though that does take a little bit of self knowledge. I think there are some people who know that they're like, kind of have that level of discernment and, and understand, like, I can have a gut reaction. I have friends, though, who are like, I've taken myself out of the hiring process because I love everyone. The, you know, the person that I meet them, and so they have to bring someone else into the hiring process to make sure that their, you know, kind of gut instinct of like, I want you to love me isn't the driving force there.
- [20:55]
A
How much, though, do you sort of want that employee? I don't want to say to love you, but to, like, does the chemistry matter more?
- [21:03]
C
I think it matters a lot. And I don't think it's necessarily someone who, for lack of better words, is already a big fan of what you're doing. I think that chemistry is a huge piece of the puzzle because especially when you have such a small kind of team at first it is someone that you want to spend that time with because it is effectively your work spouse. This is someone you spend an awful lot of time with. And if you find yourself annoyed with something about them on the interview, you would better believe you're going to be annoyed by it in three months when you're stressed on a deadline. So for sure, I think chemistry is a huge piece of the puzzle.
- [21:44]
A
Are there any questions that are kind of go tos for you to figure out the ambitions of the person that you're bringing onto the team to make sure that their goals sort of line up with what the role is going to be?
- [21:58]
C
Yes, I have these sneaky interview questions that seem really ambiguous at first, but really do kind of do a good job of telling like who someone is. I'm completely going to give away all my secrets on this, but how to
- [22:13]
A
get hired by Melissa.
- [22:16]
C
Suddenly I'm going to need someone else in the room because I'm not going to be able to see past this. But I do. Like, one of those sneaky questions for me is really what is the most difficult thing that you've ever designed technically? And what it does is it kind of, it allows someone to like both if they haven't had, you know, we've had kind of people that we've had interviewed with who are like, well, I haven't really been tested yet, but here's what I have done. And so what that tells me is that a, they're ambitious because they can recognize kind of where they're, they're where they are at now. But it tells me also what they might want to achieve in the future and kind of what their goals are. And so that, that shows to me that they have a little bit more ambition, which I like. I very much appreciate that. And an employee because it really creates that like go getter kind of mentality of like, I'm not waiting for you to give me something to do. I'm going to go after and get it myself. So that's one of them. And then the other one is I do ask the question of like, how do you, sorry, how do you actually feel appreciated is the question. And so we kind of asked the question, like, basically framed by the love languages of like, do you prefer quality time? Do you prefer words of affirmation? Do you prefer gifts? And sometimes. And I make it clear to them when I'm asking that question like, saying to me, like, I'm motivated by money is an absolutely okay thing to say, because I want to know that now, because when you're doing a great job for me, I don't want to be like, you did such a great job and you're, like, cool. Like, I've been doing a great job for six months. Could you increase my salary? Like, I want to know what that looks like for you so you feel appreciated and stay. And then another one of these sneaky ones is that I always love to ask kind of what does. And actually, maybe, Caitlin, I stole this free from you, but what does success look like for you? What is that thing that you want to reach? Like, is it seeing your work recognized in a publication? Is it receiving, you know, an award? Like, what does that look like for you? Because I think that that also is a level of showing me, like, where they want to be. Like, are they looking to grow within a firm? Are they looking to maybe start their own firm one day? Which, again, a completely fine thing to say and to, like, hire someone who has those ambitions. But I would want to know that because, a. I want to provide them, you know, a basis. Like, I. I want to know that so that I can help serve them in that way. But I also want to know, because I do think it's important that, like, one day I know that they may not be a part of the firm, so I might not put them on our, you know, $10 million, three year, three, four year project kind of thing. I know they're gonna leave in the middle of it.
- [25:01]
A
How are you assessing the culture fit piece? I mean, I know you're asking, you know, kind of trying to feel out, is this someone who wants to stay for the long haul, but what is that other sort of magical piece that makes you think, oh, this person's gonna fit here?
- [25:19]
C
Yeah, I think there. So we have done a lot of work internally as a firm, really divine, defining what our core values are. And one of the big pieces of the puzzle for us, or two. Two big pieces of the puzzle for us are really humility and collaboration. And so I know while I want someone to have confidence, because I do think that this job requires an immense amount of confidence to be able to walk into a room and say, this is the design. This is the. The best thing I can come up with, I do think that there's a level of humanity and humility that kind of runs as an undercurrent. I think you can kind of pick up on that pretty, pretty well. Just based on the undercurrent of someone's questions. But I also love it whenever someone asks the question about, like, what is your company culture? Like, like, is it collaborative? Because I do think you can come from, you know, a place where you might have come from a firm or a past work experience where you didn't have those things. And to be asking for that tells me that that matters to you and that you have a focus on that. And then I also, you know, think putting them in front of. One of the key pieces of the puzzle for us is that second round of an interview, no matter what the position is. Because I want everyone in our firm to have a say and to have a voice in this person that we're bringing in. Because ultimately, like, they're all in the same room together way more often than I'm in the same room with them. And so I want them to feel like they have a say in that. And that's definitely a part of our culture.
- [26:52]
A
That's amazing. In the beginning, I mean, I love that you said early on, like, I don't think I was thinking about, you know, workplace culture for my first hire, but what does that start to look like in the early days or when you think about kind of implementing that for a team of one, maybe eventually for a team of to. What does it take to get that right?
- [27:13]
C
I think being on the same page with whoever you are potentially hiring is a huge piece of this, like, understanding, do they need kind of flexibility to work from home, or are they kind of someone who really prefers to be in person with every, you know, possible moment? Understanding, like, making sure you're on the same page, as far as that goes, is a huge piece, especially as a small firm, because presuming you, you might not have an office space that you're working out of yet. So it might. You know, for me, you know, when I hired my first hire, Kate, we spent many days and hours at Starbucks just working together. And that. That was basically our. Our office space for the longest time. But it also comes with complications of, like, well, okay, so we're high. You know, we're. We're buying accessories for this project and for this install. Who's receiving those? Who's unpacking those? Are we doing that together? Are we. You know, like, those are the kind of questions that I think would be very mindful to be asking yourself on this end of the spectrum, because it is really important to understand if. That. If you want that person involved in that, like, are they coming to your house to Help you unpack those things and document them, like, and is. And making sure that that person is okay and okay with coming into your house where maybe they're stepping into a little bit of real life for you. You know, you want to. You want to be on the same page with someone. But I also think creating that culture is also, you know, really deeply understanding, like, who this person is and as much as you can on the front end, obviously, but understanding who that person is and really making sure that there's someone that you do want to spend time with, because it is. I mean, it really does become a lot like a marriage. The dysfunctional parts of marriage, as well as the, you know, very highly wonderful, functional parts of a marriage as well.
- [29:03]
A
Is it harder to delegate when you're a really small team? When you're a team of two? When you do sort of feel like you're in that funny, funky marriage? Do the lines between, like, employer, employee get blurry? Is it. Is it harder to hand things off? Is it harder to say you're unpacking this box of accessories?
- [29:22]
C
Honestly, I'm glad you. I'm glad you brought that up because I do think, like, having a comfort level with the thought process of delegation and is so important, because it does. I mean, especially as your team grows, but especially that first hire, because you have done everything yourself and you have worn every single hat in your business, and you're about to bring someone into your business and hand some of the hats to them and probably some of
- [29:47]
A
the crummier hats, sometimes a hundred percent,
- [29:51]
C
but also maybe sometimes the not crummy hats, because you're like, I don't want this person to hate their life.
- [29:57]
A
Right, right, right.
- [29:58]
C
And so it's understanding kind of what those are and what your comfort level is with. With handing those things off. I definitely think that's a part of it. I also think that, you know, with my first hire, there was definitely a level of friendship that at times, especially as the company grew, became a little challenging to kind of navigate that piece with, you know, making sure that I. We maintained, as the firm grew, that no one felt like, okay, well, it's you two against the world. There is that level of that. I think for your first hire, it's a little bit inevitable. And so it might be a little hard to find some separation there. I'm definitely not recommending saying we have hard set boundaries and we can't be friends, because I think that that's natural. But I think it is something to be mindful of as Your question Asker really had mentioned she doesn't see herself being a small firm. She does see some growth in her future. You know, you kind of said earlier that you should know when your gut. I actually highly disagree with that. Maybe that's controversial and it probably just is person to person dependent. I never felt ready to make a hire. I never felt ready financially. I never felt like the business was in the right spot. Like, I just didn't feel that settledness of, like, yes, now's the right time, okay. But I was given the advice, especially from a design perspective. If you're looking to hire a designer, ensuring that you understand that really this person should be an addition to your revenue, because they are. They will be a revenue driver for your business. Like, that's the piece that really kind of catapulted me over the, you know, whatever chasm I was staring into, feeling like I wasn't ready. That's really what helped me kind of change a mindset and understand that it should be viewed as a. In addition to the business instead of a drain on the business. And that has every design, you know, design team hire that we have made has really been. That has been very, very true. But really, that. That really is from just a. Like being able to take on more work, build that work and really grow, you know, your ability, your capacity to take things on for sure.
- [32:14]
A
Before I let you go, what is the best piece of advice you've ever received?
- [32:20]
C
If you understand where you want your firm to go from the beginning, if you have a really good understanding of that, like making decisions, every decision from there should be easy. And easy is relative, right? I mean, some of these decisions are not easy, but I think it does make every decision pretty clear of what you need to do for the next step or the next thing to get you to that next level. And sometimes you'll be walking through mud, and that's fine, and that is part of the process. But I think if you have kind of eyes on that initial goal for your business, like, that just makes things much more simple instead of kind of wading through the, like, what do I want? Do I want a small firm? Do I want a large firm? Do I want an empire? Do you know, I think understanding what you want is so key to any hiring decision, but especially as you grow your firm and evolve and change, like, that's the key for me.
- [33:22]
A
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone listening with a question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry, we'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an email@tradetalesusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. And if you're looking for even more great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com trade deals is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you here next week.