Ask Us Anything: Michael Hilal on how good photography drives growth

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Trade Tales – Ask Us Anything: Michael Hilal on How Good Photography Drives Growth

Podcast: Trade Tales
Host: Kaitlin Petersen, Business of Home
Guest: Michael Hilal (Interior Designer)
Date: September 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Trade Tales centers on the pivotal role of professional photography in modern interior design businesses. Through a listener's question about missing the chance to photograph a key project, the conversation delves into the evolving necessity of capturing and promoting one's work, the tension between old-school and social-media-driven paradigms, and practical advice for designers on how (and why) to prioritize project documentation. Guest designer Michael Hilal—whose practice thrives on impactful use of photography—shares candid insights into his evolving systems, balancing client relationships, and knowing when it's worth picking up the camera.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “One That Got Away”: The Missed Opportunity

• Listener’s Dilemma: A veteran designer describes losing the chance to photograph a beautifully decorated project when the client moved unexpectedly.
• Old vs. New School: The listener, whose career began before social media, questions if she needs to shift priorities in light of today's visual-driven market.
• “I just wish I had made that a priority to get someone in there because then suddenly once it's gone, it's gone.” – Question Asker Designer (01:11)

2. Navigating the Changing Landscape of Design Promotion

• Reluctance Toward Promotion: The designer admits to feeling disconnected from "the grind" of constant content creation for social media and is unsure whether to adapt.
• Portfolio Through Word of Mouth: She relies heavily on repeat and referral clients, with her online presence not being the main driver of business.
• “There's almost been like a little bit of whiplash... You kind of see these people, you know, they're photographing everything all the time. They suddenly have these huge portfolios. It's impressive... but I guess that's not always my motivation.” – Question Asker Designer (03:11)

3. Michael Hilal’s Perspective: The Power of Thoughtful Photography

• Evolving Systems: Hilal discusses continually refining business systems, including leveraging AI for organization and inspiration—but is clear that AI doesn’t write his design copy.
  • “We're improving the way that we're doing things... we're actually utilizing AI... just on my phone alone, I have 35,000 images.” – Michael Hilal (07:07)
• Design Over Time: Both he and the listener develop projects gradually, making it tricky to determine when to shoot. Hilal argues for understanding the client’s life rhythm and waiting for the right moment.
  • “Part of it is just reading the client, like, understanding if they're done or not.” (13:21)
• Impact on Growth: Michael credits strategic photography and subsequent publication as critical to his rapid business growth—even when much of his work arrives through referrals.
  • “It pays for the photos... Kind of like moving your business in the right direction in terms of how you’re contextualizing clients in those projects.” (16:28)

4. The Client’s Perspective and the Photography Process

• Gaining Consent: Hilal doesn’t mandate photography but negotiates sensitively, offering options for privacy and anonymity.
  • “We can frame it in a way that it's a bit more discreet... Essentially like every client... has been pretty receptive to that.” (18:49)
• Respecting Their Space: Michael emphasizes transparency and clear communication about what shooting entails, editing for press, and the marketing function of the photos.
  • “We may edit down your stuff because these are for publication... There’s also a marketing aspect to this for us.” (22:30)
• Minimizing Imposition: He uses a professional stylist, so clients feel less burdened by the process.
  • “It feels a little bit more disciplined when you have a stylist on site… People have defined roles. It also sounds very fancy.” (21:18)

5. Prioritization: Knowing When and What to Shoot

• The Reality of Scheduling Shoots: Even for Michael, logistics can be a challenge, especially if projects aren’t truly finished. He pushes clients when needed but focuses on readiness more than frequency.
  • “We are doing a horrible job at that right now... We just could not meet the deadline. But... the client, one of the clients is the house in Monterey that we shot. And they love how beautifully it turned out.” (24:18)
• Advising the Hesitant Designer: Hilal suggests a pragmatic approach—aim for at least one thoughtfully documented project per year.
  • "If you can shoot a project a year... you could honestly get a few press hits out of that one project." (31:34)

6. The Value of Quality Over Quantity

• The Marketing Payoff: Investing in professional photos and a well-assembled team generates lasting assets—publications, social media momentum, and spiderweb effects through the networks of stylists and photographers.
  • "Your photographs are for your portfolio and they’re for professional use… If you shoot a good project... it's not just you promoting... it kind of like spiderwebs out to all these other people that have essentially touched the project." (32:52)
• Avoiding FOMO: Michael warns against letting “fear of missing out” or industry pressures dictate decisions. Shoot what you’re proud of, when it makes sense for your business and evolution.
  • “Put aside any sort of like, bullshit FOMO... Focus on what will photograph well, and also expands the dialogue of your design language.” (35:27)

7. Memorable Advice & Philosophy

• Stay Humble & Engaged: "Never put on airs. Never be afraid to like, roll up your sleeves. I've cleaned toilets before... If you're gonna ask anyone to do anything, you should be willing to do it yourself." (37:58)
• Business is Service: No task is beneath the designer—exceptional service begets referrals and trust.
  • “While yes, you might be a creative, you might be a designer... at the end of the day we are in customer service.” (39:02)
• Ask Questions: Don’t fear rejection or uncertainty; the worst response to a question is simply a no.
  • “Never be afraid to ask a question because the worst response you're ever going to get is a no.” (40:21)

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• “I just wish I had made that a priority to get someone in there because then suddenly once it's gone, it's gone.” — Question Asker Designer (01:11)
• “You really have to [think about photography], even if you could frame photography as not a necessity because you've got a good influx of business... but it is good to have portfolio pieces to show your clients.” — Michael Hilal (14:44)
• “The product is far better... if you have been able to assemble like a good team, you know, strategically, like some photographers and stylists already have relationships with those publications...” — Michael Hilal (32:52)
• “Put aside any sort of like, bullshit FOMO... focus on what will photograph well, and also expands the dialogue of... what her design language is.” — Michael Hilal (35:27)
• “At the end of the day, we are in customer service... we have to do it with the utmost integrity and... the nicest manner for the client.” — Michael Hilal (39:02)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:51–04:27 — Listener’s Question: The one that got away & reflecting on promotion
• 07:07–08:48 — Michael Hilal on evolving business systems and AI
• 11:44–12:27 — Michael’s own “project that got away”
• 14:31–16:42 — The impact of published photography on business growth
• 18:24–20:36 — Negotiating photo rights & handling client hesitations
• 24:18–26:56 — Practical struggles in scheduling and prioritizing shoots
• 28:14–32:17 — Adapting to industry pressures & shooting for the right reasons
• 32:52–35:12 — Building a high-impact, collaborative photography process
• 35:27–37:54 — Michael’s “pep talk”: Quality, not FOMO; finding your own pace
• 37:58–40:21 — Michael’s best professional advice

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Takeaways for Designers

• Prioritize quality, not quantity: Concentrate resources on documenting your best, most finished projects.
• Shooting isn’t mandatory: It’s about your business goals—don’t shoot just to keep up with social media.
• Build a great team: A pro photographer and stylist elevate the result and multiply your reach via their networks.
• Communicate openly with clients: Transparency and respect about the process fosters trust and willingness.
• Stay grounded: Humility, hard work, and service are as important as creative vision in building a successful practice.
• Don’t fear asking questions—or hearing ‘no’.

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For designers feeling pressure to constantly document their work, Michael Hilal’s advice is clear: shoot less, but make it count. Thoughtful, professionally captured images can fuel business growth and strengthen your brand far more than chasing every fleeting trend.

Transcript

[Caitlin Peterson]

Foreign Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything where we're tapping your favorite Trade Tales guests to answer all of your questions about building a better design business. Some weeks we'll be workshopping a crisis. In others, we'll take a step back to talk about the big picture. Things like embracing change, hiring, or how to level up. No question is out of bounds. No question is too large or too small. And we're keeping it confidential so that this is always a safe space to air your frustrations and share your fears. This week we're talking about photography. What to shoot, when to shoot it, and why it matters. The spark for this conversation was a call from a designer about the one that got away.

[Question Asker Designer]

We ended up decorating this place to the nines. And so they reached out to me and were like, oh, well, we, you know, I think we're going to move. And I was like, oh my gosh, I need to photograph this project. And then like, could we do it after the holidays? And she was like, sure. And then I kind of reached out to them and they were like, oh, it happened really quickly. We ended up moving and it was just like one of those things where the fact that I never had anyone in there, I just wish I had made that a priority to get someone in there because then suddenly once it's gone, it's gone.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Our question asker cut her teeth at several well known firms for more than a decade before launching her own business 15 years ago. And most of her formative experiences in the industry took place long before Instagram was a driving force in design. She's resisted sharing her work on social media, not in some passionate act of defiance, but because she didn't really need to. She's got a healthy stable of clients already and she wants to keep her firm small, so why stress about posting every day? But the fact that she couldn't capture this project, that it was gone for good, left her questioning her entire approach.

[Question Asker Designer]

I think it's always been a back burner thing. For whatever reason, I've never worked with a PR agent. I actually was just listening to your podcast with Anne about, you know, hiring a PR company and it's just nothing I've ever felt I needed to do necessarily. I have a very small firm and I've had a pretty steady flow of work. It's not been something I've prioritized. I have like almost an aversion to. To it a little bit.

[Caroline Burke]

The promotional part of it.

[Question Asker Designer]

Yeah, the promotional Part of it. And the idea of, I mean, obviously you need to photograph your work so people can see your work, so they can know if they like your style. You know, I mean, obviously this is what we need.

[Caroline Burke]

But I was going to ask you about that. I mean, like, how do you get clients buying in if they don't have portfolio images to sort of sink into?

[Question Asker Designer]

There is work that I've. That I have on my website, you know what I mean? And I think. And a lot of it is work, word of mouth, and a lot of it is repeat clients. So it's not like I don't have projects. And we talk about Instagram a lot because I think that's what a lot of it's for.

[Caroline Burke]

Or getting published.

[Question Asker Designer]

Or getting published. Exactly. And how those have changed so much just in the course of my career. And I would consider myself like a designer of the old school, only because for the first 10 years I was in this industry, there was no social media.

[Caroline Burke]

Right.

[Question Asker Designer]

So there's almost been like a little bit of whiplash where you kind of see these people, you know, they're photographing everything all the time. They suddenly have these huge portfolios. It's impressive. And I'm. I totally applaud them to do it, but I guess that's not always my motivation. And I do feel like I've had younger people come work for me and they're like, oh, I work for so and so. And they were like, it's all about getting any project that you're going to be able to finish and photograph and get onto the next. And just the way I work as an entrepreneur and as like an artist or a creative, like, that's not my motivation.

[Caroline Burke]

Is photography part of your contract? Have clients opted in already? Or are you also looking at projects that might be ready to shoot and thinking, oh, I hope the clients. Client is okay with this, or I hope they're open to it.

[Question Asker Designer]

No, it's not. It's not something I've written into my contract. So I would definitely have to. Yes, I would have to clear it with them and I expect I would have to pay for it too, you know, and that's what I've. That's always what I've done in the past, historically, which I'm fine with. I mean, because again, it's like, those are for my portfolio, you know, or possibly to be published, if they would be okay with that. And if, you know, I found someone to publish them, I think maybe it's just. No. Yeah. Knowing when the project's done or when the project's ready and also just making.

[Caroline Burke]

The time for it and the budget for it and the budget.

[Question Asker Designer]

And maybe just like, how do you prioritize it? You know, how do you. How do you make that a priority?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I talk to a lot of designers who look at today's media landscape with frustration. They are exhausted by the pressure to photograph their work and post it relentlessly on social media. Our Question Asker is looking at the designers who are engaged in that grind successfully and wondering if she should be moving in that direction. But I'll bet plenty of you are listening to her story and wishing you could opt out. There's another wrinkle here. Our question Asker doesn't install everything for her clients all at once. Her work unfolds over time, and it's an experience that can make it challenging to know when a project is truly done or when it's time to call the photographer for a shoot. As we ended our call, I knew just who to connect with to offer a fresh perspective. Someone whose business is very online and who has grown their firm quickly with an impactful use of photography, but who takes the same step by step approach to creating a home. All that and more in just a moment. This week's question is all about how to prioritize photographing your work. But before that can happen, your project needs to be ready for its moment in the spotlight, with furnishings that reflect your vision while also withstanding the wear and tear of everyday life. Fourhands is here to help designers do just that with a new collection of 400 timeless styles that flex, move, contain and connect to help your clients make the most of their homes. New has never looked so good. I can't wait for you to check it all out. Find the inspiration for your next [e-mail] Tradetales today I'm joined by Michael Hilal as a guest on Trade Tales Last year, he explained how a thoughtful approach to photographing his work and getting it published had accelerated his firm's growth, but also why he was resisting the pressure to rush through a job. His design approach to each project mirrors that of our Question Asker, but how he looks at what to do when the project winds down couldn't be more different. With that in mind, I thought Michael would be the perfect person to weigh in on today's question.

[Caroline Burke]

Thank you so much for joining me today. TradeTail's listeners heard from you last spring, and at the time we talked a lot about the way that you approached scaling your firm. Really shoring up systems, focusing on consistency. As you hired a team, do you feel settled into those systems now?

[Michael Hilal]

Oh, never, no. The systems have changed since then. We're improving the way that we're doing things. We're really optimizing. And I'm sure this is such a cliche of commentary. Right now we are actually utilizing AI as part of our stable of software and products is to kind of develop our business.

[Caroline Burke]

That doesn't surprise me from you, but can you tell me where it's been most useful so far?

[Michael Hilal]

Well, it's not really. It's not really the design. Okay. Yeah. Candidly, I've read so much copy that designers have posted on imagery on their website and you're like, oh, AI wrote this. And so right now we use Both Claude and ChatGPT4. And then there is another suite of products. One is an image database that we're using. That's all run on AI because, I mean, just on my phone alone, I have 35,000 images.

[Caroline Burke]

Are you then able to ask it questions and ask it to surface inspiration for you?

[Michael Hilal]

Not that in depth, but if I wanted to find buildings with arches, Art Nouveau. Art Nouveau furnishings, it can actually dissect wow images to that level, like color. So pre. And this maybe just tells you a little bit about my ocd. Pre. AI, I would go through. I don't know if it's a lazy Sunday, if it's a few hours at night.

[Caroline Burke]

Did you label all your pictures?

[Michael Hilal]

I started labeling all of my pictures at the end of the week. That's essentially even how I run my inbox is everything's kind of categorized, everything's filed away. It's how we run all of our spreadsheets that we keep for clients. Because as much as we would suggest clients look at Studio Designer for inventory invoices, they do not. And of course, we can't expect any contractor to do that. So we have per project, we have a very robust spreadsheet that has schedules refined by. Refined by category, and then we have an overall schedule. So if like a developer wanted to go out and print that schedule, they could do. So it's a lot of legwork, but everyone ends up being very happy.

[Caroline Burke]

We are coming up on Collectible, the design fair, and I know you've got some good stuff showing there. Can you tell me a little bit about what you have in the works?

[Michael Hilal]

I'm co chairing collectible this year, running a series called Vignette, which I framed as essentially as a snapshot to a designer's mind. It's almost considered as a store window, so to speak. So if you were to design a window for your interior design firm at the moment, what would that look like? And that's how I. That's how I framed the vignette series. And so we have some exciting people that are showing within. Within category. And then additionally, I'm showing, too. They asked me if I would show as well, and I was like, sure, why not? You know, put your money where your mouth is. You've got to really, like, step up to the plate and support everyone within your category. And I thought showing was a good way to do that. And then additionally, Lila Allen, formerly of AD Pro, is going to be moderating a talk that we have happening around the vignette series and just what it means to curate and collect.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's really beautiful.

[Caroline Burke]

The show opens, if you're listening to this, the day it came out. The show opens tomorrow in New York, September 4th.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Are you ready to give some advice?

[Michael Hilal]

I mean, who wants to hear from me?

[Caroline Burke]

I think everyone. No. This week we are fielding a question from a designer who missed the opportunity to photograph a great project when the client abruptly moved away. But I think her question is a little bit less like, how do I prevent this from happening again? It's sort of more of a search for a fresh perspective.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Right.

[Caroline Burke]

On the role that photography plays in a firm today. But first, I want to start with a question about the one that got away. Do you have a project that got away that disappeared before you could shoot it?

[Michael Hilal]

You know, we had one project early on that we wanted to shoot, and there was so much stuff inside of it. I felt defeated immediately. And I think we ended up shooting, like, two rooms. I was. There was no way we were going to. No way we were going to actually shoot more than that. So much stuff everywhere. But obviously it's their house, and I would never help them for that. I just thought, like, okay, we'll shoot these two spaces, but we're not going.

[Caroline Burke]

To shoot the rest of. This is a lost cause.

[Michael Hilal]

Yeah, yeah. No, no, there's. I am a firm believer that not everything needs to be shot immediately.

[Caroline Burke]

I do want to set the scene a little bit here for listeners because I actually came to you to answer this question for. I mean, for a couple reasons, but for one really specific reason. And it's that I actually think what you have in common with this designer and also what you don't is really interesting because I think one of the things that I admire in your work, that I admire in this question Asker's work is that I think you're very in alignment with this idea of design over time. And I feel like that can make it hard to know when to document that work. But if you're creating an experience that unfolds, rather than, I don't know, something that just like, appears, you kind of have to sort of say, like, was it done enough? Like, am I. Is this the moment that I want to capture it? Should I wait for that one more thing? How do you reckon with that? How do you know when it is time?

[Michael Hilal]

Well, I think part of it is just reading the client, right, like, understanding if they're done or not. We actually just shot something that I start. It's funny, like, I just had a feature in Architectural Digestion and it was this beautiful Monterey home and the client was really had really, I would say, changed their design dialogue. Initially, they had lived in Los Angeles in what would be a very white, contemporary, kind of wabi sabi, really like California modernist but relaxed home. And then they had purchased a really beautiful mid century home in Monterey that was then restored. And we had worked on that for many years. And so we really spent some time getting to know the clients, how they'd live. We knew that they wanted to collect certain pieces and so we gave that like two and a half years to three years to complete it. We're still actually collecting a few pieces for that home because the client is being really selective. And I appreciate that.

[Caroline Burke]

Your portfolio and sort of getting published and that cadence of imagery, I think played a really big role in the growth of your business. I feel like we've talked about that before.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You thought about that from early on, right?

[Michael Hilal]

Yeah, you really have to. And I know you could frame photography as not a necessity because you've got like a good influx of business outside of, you know, like business outside of just what the photography might drive. Because, look, there's a chance that you may not get any business, right? But it is good to have portfolio pieces to show your clients. And also luckily, like, you know, we get a lot of referral business, but we are now getting an influx of like cold calls just based on designs that people have seen because those images have really circulated. One of our clients that we just signed with in the past, like two months happens to be out in Marin, really purchased a really beautiful home. And she found me on Instagram, you know, like, or she reached. She reached out to me via Instagram and we had kind of talked about like, what the house could turn into, but the photography is Important, you know, like, she had looked far and wide and had seen, you know, like, had looked at a dozen, at least interior designers portfolios online, their Instagrams, and she had reached out. It was kind of crazy. I was working late at night, she had said. I'd looked at so many people. I looked at so many people's portfolios. I feel like, taste level wise, like, you are such a fit and I would trust you with my home. And that is from. That is from those photos. And, you know, while that might be an occurrence every six months or even a year. Every year.

[Caroline Burke]

That pays for the photos.

[Michael Hilal]

Totally. It pays for the photos. And it also is a sign that you're kind of like moving your business, and you could be moving your business in the right direction in terms of how you're contextualizing clients in those projects.

[Caroline Burke]

Do clients see themselves in the photography, in the work?

[Michael Hilal]

They do. They do. Well, the funny thing about the Monterey Project is we had photographed it and the client was initially kind of hesitant. And they're lawyers, so they really asked me. They really had a lot of questions on a question. But after they saw the photos, they were, like, obsessed with them and they felt really happy. Like, I think it provided a new lens as to how they, like, looked at their home and how were, like, living in it. They're like, oh, this is how someone else sees how we actually live. Live. And actually, that's when, whenever we meet with our photographers, I mean, the one thing we probably oftentimes do is we probably pare back a little bit more. I want less florals. I don't need 10 things on a console that don't mean anything. You know, I'd rather have it feel a little bit more paired back. But also, I think that's kind of our aesthetic. And so that's probably the biggest edit that we make. But I always tell our photographers I want it to feel like we're kind of peering into how this person lives versus something that's totally staged. Because I think there's an epidemic in our industry of staging something in a way. You're like, no one lives like this. You know, like, it's beautiful to go into maybe a showroom and see this. But let's kind of take it back to a more naturalistic point of view.

[Caroline Burke]

Do you put photographing the work in your contract? Is that kind of a requirement of working with you?

[Michael Hilal]

It's not a requirement. I mean, some clients can, like, write it out. They didn't. Now we've had a couple of clients like trying to negotiate it out. But then we talk with them about what it would actually mean to photograph. And not in terms of like how to, how it helps our business, but more so it would not, you know, they could be anonymous.

[Caroline Burke]

What are the options? Right, yeah, exactly.

[Michael Hilal]

And maybe we're, we're not going to take like a full front facing view of the house. It could be a capture of like a window and a fountain or whatever it might be. It doesn't, we don't have to see the entire expanse of the house. So we can frame it in a way that it's a bit more discreet. And obviously there wouldn't be any family photos which we would probably take out anyways. And essentially like every client that we had had has been pretty receptive to that. We had one client, client that like really pushed back and kind of questioned it and I had agreed to just pull it but with, with a T with written into the T's and C's. We phrased it in a way that there is an opportunity to photograph like as opposed to them being forced into photography by the agreement. But honestly, largely I think clients understand and I don't know if it's because I'm cute and young, but clients about clients understand that like this really will help the business and you know, like, hey, look, maybe if I were like grumpier and long in the chute, they'd be like, let's not photograph.

[Caroline Burke]

One of the things I talked about with her was just like what an imposition this can be or that this can feel like on the client. Right. You're shooting these houses, you want them to feel at least somewhat lived in. And so you are sort of coming in, taking all their stuff off the shelf, putting it in a bag behind the frame. You've kicked them out for a day, two days, a week. How do you approach that? How have you made that feel like less of a kind of big ask?

[Michael Hilal]

I don't really think about it in that terms. It's, you know, it's let's ask and if there are objections, let's, let's address the objections. You know, any good business person isn't going to bring up the objections to their client, right? Like they're going to deal with the objection, they're going to leave it slightly opaque, but with the objections as they come, essentially. And the other thing too is we're pretty much working with stylists at this point as well. So we'll leverage, we'll definitely leverage the stylist in terms of like taking everything away and putting everything back. And I actually think it feels a little bit more disciplined when you have a stylist on site and they're right that aspect of it, then the client feels a little bit more at ease with you moving the stuff in and out. I do think it's in part because people have defined roles. It also sounds very fancy.

[Caroline Burke]

Right? Funny enough, as I was, I knew we were going to have this call today. And I was on Instagram earlier today and I saw a couple other designers talking about photography in a totally different sort of avenue. But one of them shared a screenshot. It was a DM that they had gotten and it was a follower, basically saying, I had a really negative experience actually on a photo shoot watching my designer move all of my things in pursuit of making their own business look better. And I was really hurt by it. And I had never heard that perspective before. Is that something that you've ever seen? Is that something you think about in terms of just like balancing what you need from the images and how the client feels about seeing their space in sort of a stripped back, different light?

[Michael Hilal]

Well, it sounds like, it sounds like they were a little opaque with the client in terms of what they were photograph or what the photos were for, how they were utilized. The photos. But we're pretty, we're pretty straightforward with the client, like look we. And we actually will tell them we may edit down your stuff because these are for publication. But I do think largely clients understand that this is like, it's a. There's also a marketing aspect to this for us.

[Caitlin Peterson]

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[Caroline Burke]

How do you prioritize shoots from kind of a time perspective and also from a budget perspective? I think our question asker sometimes just like doesn't make the call, doesn't get the shoot booked. You know, that just isn't sort of part of like her punch list of finishing a project. How do you make sure that happens?

[Michael Hilal]

We are doing a horrible job at that right now. Okay, like, full disclosure, we are supposed to do a couple of shoots in July, early August. We just could not meet. We could not meet the deadline. So we pushed them back to late October. But we're rounding towards the end. And I don't think we were diligent enough in pushing our clients on, on the finishing product. And we've been slowly kind of like walking them through it. And also, like, we ran into summer. You have travels. One of the clients, like, lives out of town for the summer, so it makes it harder to kind of get those things in front of them. And so it took a minute to kind of round some of that out. And we have our punch list. My team and I were like, forcing our clients decisions. And it turns out that one of the clients, one of the clients is the house in Monterey that we shot. And they love how beautifully it turned out. So they want to finish their house in Tahoe, like, pretty quickly, and they understand what it means to be finished now that they've seen the photos.

[Caroline Burke]

That's great.

[Michael Hilal]

I mean, because we were looking at like a handful of like, art accessories and lamps over the period of like four months. And that's just not tenable for us.

[Caroline Burke]

It's a little slow.

[Michael Hilal]

Yeah, a little slow. Like, we have one client that is picking out some. Something really beautiful and expensive, but it's happening like one a month. Yeah, we're, we're, we're. We'll probably shoot that project in February. And we are like now full steam, like pushing them on some things. Like pushing them. Not pushing them to buy specific things, but pushing them to make decisions. You know, candidly, again, another aspect of this is, especially in the Bay Area, a remodel of just a standard family home could easily be 2 or 3 million dollars. So you're spending millions of dollars on, on like a remodel, then we're furnishing it. So to then push them, like, okay, let's pick out, let's, let's get some art pieces. We always tell clients in advance, like, let's budget for, let's budget x amount of dollars for art. But especially if it's like a client that a beginner client in a way. And when I say beginner, if they've not worked with a designer before, if they've not gone through this process to then tell someone, hey, budget two to $300,000 just for art is a little. It can be unfathomable for the most moneyed clients.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Right.

[Caroline Burke]

I want to, I want to be clear that this question is mine and not our question askers. I don't want to put words in her mouth, but it's something that my conversation with her has made me think a lot about in the last few days. I feel like she painted this picture of it, the industry that she came of age in and how she sort of recognizes that her approach is maybe now out of step with how I would say some of the most visible talents in our industry define success. Is that fair? Like, she cut her teeth working for these incredible, well known firms, has launched her own business, but she's also very happy to keep her firm small. She has more than enough work to see her through some of these, like, very turbulent years. When you look at someone with a business like that, how important do you think it is to adapt? Like, when it comes to something like photography, is it okay to kind of stay in your lane and do what's worked for you and say, maybe I don't need to photograph all of this? Or do you think that some of those pressures of Instagram or getting published or sort of bringing in the next great work from those images is worth sort of changing the way you approach your business?

[Michael Hilal]

I think that's a great question, but I think it's dependent on what her goals are really. I mean, it sounds as though some of that could be like FOMO based. I think that is just really going to be like, kind of based around what your goals are like. Sure. Everyone loves recognition. Everyone. Liar. If I sat here and said, oh, it doesn't feel great to be interviewed by Kaitlyn Peterson, oh, stop. I would be totally fully line. And I also feel very, like privileged that I get to experience that. But also it's a ton of pressure, you know. And so I do think there is a world where you as a designer need to say when, but then also need to understand why you're doing that. So in terms of kind of going again, stepping back to the photography, you don't feel good about what the outcome would be, or if you feel like it would be too forced, then don't shoot it. Really, honestly, don't shoot it. I mean, I'm not one to design a space and then borrow everything that you see in the space because it does happen. I mean, you know, the, the secret is out, which is fine. Like, everyone's going to manage that process however they'd like. That's just not what I want to do. And so it becomes incredibly expensive to do that. Not necessarily to even loan things. You're talking about insurance, you're talking art handlers, you're, you know, like, talking about people on site to help you move the things around becomes extremely expensive. And, you know, like, if I don't need to incur that expense and I can put that money elsewhere, maybe towards another photo shoot, then I would rather do that because I. I would much rather prefer having, like, a good team assembled on site that can take great photos and move everything along effectively, as opposed to pushing to take photos with, you know, things that I don't feel really, like, super proud of or things that I don't think, like, belong in the home. It just, just I try to avoid that now. Have I to borrow things before? Like, sure, yeah, yeah, I borrowed things for every shoot. Now it depends on the amount of stuff that I'm borrowing for the home. And I'm lucky now that we have a good base of clientele, we have a good amount of projects, we are moving. So we have bought ourselves time because of that. So what I would say to that designer, who is, you know, concerned, I think it's in part fomo. Of course, that's like my intuition, but I do think she should shoot when she feels it appropriate. But I think a good rule of thumb is, like, if you can shoot a project a year, I mean, you could, you could honestly get a few press hits out of that one project. I mean, just the project that we shot in ad, we already have other publications that are interested, so. And I wonder if that designer even understands, like, press cycles around this is it takes time. Like, you know, you pitch the project, say a publication picks it up, there's a moratorium on it, like in term or blackout period of where. When it would go to anyone else. And so it might even be like four months to six months before it even sees the light of day. So that's why I say, like, if you can shoot like a good project a year, I think you can kind of buy yourself that time or have this cadence of a project being published every year. I mean, we're pushing for probably two. I mean, the other aspect of it is my business is rather young. So I think, like, that's also why we're pushing for, For. For two projects a year.

[Caroline Burke]

One thing that you said earlier, like, shoot one project a year is just a really tangible thing, right? Like, okay, I'M going to identify that project, I'm going to schedule that shoot, I'm going to do it. And I think this idea of like bringing in the whole team, investing once in just like a great shoot with great people is actually going to give you so much more Runway than like, oh, I need to shoot a couple things or kind of cobbling something together. But just like really bringing a team of professionals together to do it for you, like, will pay off in spades, 100%.

[Michael Hilal]

The product is far better. Like, I mean, at the end of the day, this is marketing. Your photographs are for your portfolio and they're for professional use, whether it be portfolio or photographs. So it's marketing material. And so when you frame and end up framing it in that, in that way, you look at it more of as a product. Like the interior design project is the core product and then you have your sub products and one of them is the photo shoot. And really the idea with that is like, if you have been able to assemble like a good team, you know, strategically, like some photographers and stylists already have relationships with those publications and they have their own fan base. And so if you shoot a good project that you feel good about, then they feel good about, then the pictures look amazing. You know, like it's not just you promoting the photos, it's you, the publication, the stylist, the photographer. The photographer then has influence over other design publications, design blogs. And then you also have to consider the items that are in there. Like if you feel good about the items that are in there, whether it be art, whether it be furnishings, that's all subsequent like marketing material. So it's not just you and getting it in the publication, it's you getting in the publication. And then it kind of like spiderwebs out to all of these other people that have essentially touched the project. Yeah, in the last project, we not only photographed it, we also brought in a videographer who, who did video for it. So as an example, the original project was published in either in mid July and those images have been shared. We're now going to drop like the video content. The video content will hold the project over until the next, the next publication picks it up. Our hope is that that publication will also share the video content.

[Caroline Burke]

When you originally heard the question asker, you know, when you heard her question, if you could give her like a one, like a 30 second pep talk, how would you try to get her excited about what photography can do for her business?

[Michael Hilal]

I would tell her, you know, put aside any sort of like, bullshit fomo, to be honest with you. Yeah.

[Caroline Burke]

Like, I'm supposed to be doing this, right?

[Michael Hilal]

Yes. Don't let that drive your need for photography. Like, think about it in terms of your business. Like, how is this going to add to my business? How is this going to add to my dialogue? I would say, unless she has an endless amount of money and she can shoot everything and shoot it well. I would say focus on what will photograph, like, what, in her opinion, photographs well, and also expands the dialogue of, like, what her. What her design language is. Like, whatever style it might be. Screw the fomo. I dealt with that for a minute. And I will say I've never felt, like, more relieved in my life than.

[Caroline Burke]

To be, like, who cares what the Internet thinks I'm supposed to do with my business 100%.

[Michael Hilal]

Like, and then I. I was able to kind of step back and look at things from, like, a different point of view and a different lens. And while that was fairly recent, it made me, like, think about how I was actually shooting my projects. And I think a lot of things that I maybe were unspoken away where I was taking time and thinking about how to make the project a little bit more robust. But again, I think it kind of comes back to how you're expanding your dialogue of your design language and how that grows, you know, because I do think, like, look, you can still keep within the look that you want to present or what you think your style is. And if you do that well, from old to new, you're going to see, like, a through line. Whether it be color, shape, pieces that you're pulling for your projects, there's going to be a through line. So I wouldn't worry so much of that, but it's like, how does that through line been grown, expand into, like, new things? It's like, if she's playing the game of, like, Instagram, there are a ton of things that I see that feel seen for a while. Like, in terms of looks and vibes, you're like, oh, this just feels really stale right now. So you have to be cognizant of that. You never want someone to, like, look at your images and say, like, oh, this feels stale. I do think if you put out less content, but it's more developed, it stands out quite a bit more.

[Caroline Burke]

What is the best piece of advice you've ever received?

[Michael Hilal]

I'm gonna give you two pieces of advice. First piece of advice actually came from Ken Folk. You know, he had told me, never be, you know, never put on airs. Never be afraid to like, roll up your sleeves. I've cleaned toilets before. You know, you just gotta be able. Like, if you're gonna ask anyone to do anything, you should be willing to do it yourself. So, you know, like, stay humble. I think about that all the time because while maybe my profile has increased, I always make sure that I'm super engaged with my clients, with their vendors, with my colleagues at work, with me. I just want to constantly make sure that, like, I'm engaged in that way. Like, nothing's too little for me. I mean, which kind of also leads me to, you know, another piece of advice. I've definitely encountered those designers that. And this is kind of from me, those designers that do put on airs, like, or they're like, I don't want to be seen, like, moving furniture in front of a client or, like, lifting anything like that. That's not our job. And, like, at the end of the day, we work in customer service. Like, we are working for this person to develop and build this project for them. Like, this is a task. And we are in the services industry. So at the end of the day, we are in customer service. While, yes, you might be a creative, you might be a designer, when you're. When you're delivering a product which is the house, to the client, it is. It becomes a tangible good. And we have to do it with the utmost integrity and, you know, in the nicest manner for the client. Like, we want to make sure that at the end of the day, they feel good. Because if they feel good, they're going to recommend us to their friends. They're going to say, like, you know, Michael and his team will roll up their sleeves and make shit happen. And essentially, that's it. Another piece of advice, aside from interior design that I had received when I was working in tech was never be afraid to ask a question because the worst response you're ever going to get is a no. And I have people, even on my team, that are a little trepidatious or scared to ask something, and I'm like, why? Like, just ask them. Like, no one's gonna yell at you. No one's gonna scream at you. The biggest response you're gonna get is no. And that's okay. It's okay.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone listening with a question question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry, we'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an [e-mail] if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show.

[Caroline Burke]

And if you're looking for even more.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com trade deals is produced by me, Katelyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you here next week.