Ask Us Anything: Victoria Sass on the roadmap to landing your first print placement

Summary

Trade Tales Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Ask Us Anything: Victoria Sass on the Roadmap to Landing Your First Print Placement
Host: Kaitlin Petersen, Editor-in-Chief of Business of Home
Guest: Victoria Sasse, Founder of a Minneapolis-Based Interior Design Firm
Release Date: April 30, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Trade Tales, Kaitlin Petersen welcomes former guest Victoria Sasse to address a pressing question from a fellow interior designer: How can I land my first print placement? Sasse delves into her journey from commercial architecture to residential design, emphasizing the pivotal role of publicity and press in establishing credibility within the industry.

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The Importance of Press in Building a Design Business

Victoria Sasse shares her transition from commercial architecture to residential design six years ago, highlighting how publicity became essential for her firm's credibility.

Victoria Sasse [00:51]: "When I got into residential design, so much of it relies on publicity and getting published and I realized it is really important for credibility."

Sasse explains that being featured in national publications not only validates her work but also attracts higher-caliber clients.

Victoria Sasse [02:46]: "Having the credibility of being in a publication... it automatically sort of validates your ability."

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Challenges in Securing Press Placements

Sasse discusses the hurdles she faced when trying to secure her first print placement, including low response rates despite leveraging introductions from photographers and stylists.

Victoria Sasse [01:25]: "I sort of started down the road of trying to get this one first project... just really hard to get people to listen."

She emphasizes the significance of print media over digital, finding tactile publications more meaningful and lasting compared to the fleeting nature of digital content.

Victoria Sasse [01:54]: "There is something really meaningful about having your images in that tactile publication... digital can sometimes feel disposable."

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Navigating the PR Landscape

The conversation shifts to the complexities of working with PR firms. Sasse expresses skepticism about the return on investment for expensive PR retainers, sharing her experiences with different PR approaches.

Victoria Sasse [03:34]: "There's sort of this veiled mystery behind PR... paying somebody a five thousand dollar retainer a month to get something that I don't even know will help my business or not."

She recounts her initial experience with an independent contractor who managed project-based pitches, highlighting the benefits and limitations of such arrangements.

Victoria Sasse [18:07]: "We worked with her on individual projects, pitching each one separately... it was great for specific projects but not a long-term strategy."

Eventually, Sasse transitioned to a PR partner based in the Midwest to align better with her new venture—a design gallery showcasing Midwestern talent.

Victoria Sasse [22:53]: "Recently, I switched to working with a friend who moved back to the Midwest... helping me build this gallery."

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Strategies for Effective Pitching

Sasse shares actionable strategies for designers aiming to secure press placements:

1. Build Authentic Relationships:

   • Invest time in cultivating genuine connections with editors and journalists.
   • Maintain ongoing relationships rather than approaching them only when you have a project to pitch.

   Victoria Sasse [16:58]: "Try to find your people in the press that you genuinely connect with and maintain a true, authentic relationship."

2. Craft Compelling Stories:

   • Go beyond showcasing beautiful images. Develop narratives around your projects that highlight the inspiration, challenges, and unique aspects.

   Victoria Sasse [34:06]: "You have to make that project feel magical to the person that you're presenting it to."

3. Be Patient and Persistent:

   • Understand that securing press coverage is a long-term game requiring consistent effort and time.

   Victoria Sasse [42:22]: "It takes at least a year. It takes a long time for publications to get back to your PR person."

4. Leverage Local Media:

   • Start with local publications to build a foundational presence before aiming for national media.

   Victoria Sasse [14:57]: "Doing that with a local on the local scene is really great."

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Print vs. Digital Media: Making the Right Choice

The discussion explores the balance between pursuing print and digital media. Sasse acknowledges the enduring appeal of print but also recognizes the expansive reach of digital platforms.

Victoria Sasse [26:16]: "I think digital will yield longer, more fruitful results for your business."

She advises designers to consider their business needs and how each medium aligns with their goals, suggesting that digital stories are more easily searchable and can have a lasting online presence.

Victoria Sasse [26:38]: "Digital will yield longer, more fruitful results... people can look up when they Google you."

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Maximizing the Impact of Press Coverage

Sasse emphasizes the importance of having a strategy to leverage press coverage effectively:

1. Integrate Press Into Your Marketing:

   • Use media placements in your social media, website, and other marketing materials to maximize their value.

2. Continuous Promotion:

   • Promote your features consistently rather than relying on one-off mentions.

   Victoria Sasse [36:22]: "When you get published, think about your social media strategy, your website strategy... stretch that into podcast interviews."

3. Understand the Value Beyond Immediate Gains:

   • Recognize that press coverage can influence perceptions and indirectly attract clients, even if direct client gains are minimal.

   Victoria Sasse [24:29]: "I probably net two clients directly... but it definitely has an impact on how you're perceived."

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Advice for Designers Seeking Press Coverage

Victoria Sasse offers insightful advice for designers aiming to secure their first print placement:

1. Invest in Relationships Over Transactions:

   • Focus on building meaningful connections with media professionals rather than treating PR as a transactional effort.

2. Be Clear About Your Goals:

   • Understand what you aim to achieve with press coverage—be it credibility, client attraction, or brand building.

   Victoria Sasse [22:30]: "Knowing your goals is very, very important... am I trying to win awards? Am I trying to get design work?"

3. Prioritize Quality Over Quantity:

   • Aim for impactful placements that align with your brand and resonate with your target audience.

4. Don't Rely Solely on Press for Business Growth:

   • While press is valuable, it's crucial to implement a multifaceted marketing strategy to grow your business sustainably.

   Victoria Sasse [25:12]: "Know your goals... press can help, but it's not enough to keep a firm alive on press alone."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Sasse reflecting on the essence of her business and the importance of understanding what drives her. She encourages designers to identify the core of their creative passion and ensure that their PR and marketing efforts amplify that central vision.

Victoria Sasse [47:35]: "What is the ultimate thing that gives you energy at the end of the day? And how do you amplify that?"

Kaitlin Petersen thanks Victoria for her invaluable insights, encouraging listeners to thoughtfully approach their press strategies and build authentic relationships within the media landscape.

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Key Takeaways

• Relationship Building: Cultivating genuine relationships with media professionals is more effective than cold pitching.
• Storytelling Matters: A compelling narrative around your projects can significantly enhance your chances of getting published.
• Strategic Investment: Understanding the cost and return on investment of PR efforts is crucial for sustained business growth.
• Balanced Media Approach: Leveraging both print and digital media can maximize visibility and brand credibility.
• Long-Term Commitment: Patience and persistence are essential, as securing meaningful press coverage is a marathon, not a sprint.

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Notable Quotes

• Victoria Sasse [01:54]: "There is something really meaningful about having your images in that tactile publication... digital can sometimes feel disposable."
• Victoria Sasse [16:58]: "Try to find your people in the press that you genuinely connect with and maintain a true, authentic relationship."
• Victoria Sasse [26:16]: "I think digital will yield longer, more fruitful results for your business."
• Victoria Sasse [34:06]: "You have to make that project feel magical to the person that you're presenting it to."
• Victoria Sasse [47:35]: "What is the ultimate thing that gives you energy at the end of the day? And how do you amplify that?"

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Additional Resources

• Victoria Sasse’s Design Gallery: Launching in June, showcasing Midwestern design talent.
• Business of Home Experts Directory: A comprehensive listing of PR professionals tailored for the design community.
• Victoria’s Upcoming Projects: Including furniture design collections and her new design gallery.

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For more insights and expert advice on building a successful design business, tune into upcoming episodes of Trade Tales. To submit your questions, email [e-mail].

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This summary was crafted based on the transcript and podcast information provided, aiming to encapsulate the essence of the conversation for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything, a new show where I'll be tapping former Trade Tales guests to answer all of your questions about building a better design business. Some weeks we'll be workshopping a crisis. In others, we'll take a step back to talk about the big picture. Things like embracing change, hiring, or how to level up. No question is out of bounds. No question is too large or too small. And we're keeping it confident so that this is always a safe space to air your frustrations and share your fears. This week I'm excited to field a question from a designer who's hoping to land her young firm's first magazine feature.

[Victoria Sasse]

I went out on my own about six years ago in the residential space. I was in commercial architecture before and so the publishing thing was like not on my radar. But then, you know, when I got into residential design, so much of it relies on publicity and getting published and I realized it is really important for credibility.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Our question asker has a project she's excited to share with the world, but finding press placement has been a challenge. She's looking for advice on how to get her work in front of a larger audience.

[Victoria Sasse]

So I sort of started down the road of trying to get this one first project that I had that I sort of felt was worthy of going down that avenue. And just how many roadblocks? Not even really roadblocks, but like just total crickets and non response. Even with an introduction from someone like a photographer or stylist, it's just really hard to get people to listen, I guess.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Would you want to see the whole.

Home digitally or is is being kind of on paper in print a really big piece of it for you?

[Victoria Sasse]

Well, at this point I think I'd be happy with anything, honestly. There is something really meaningful about having your images in that tactile publication that you're holding in your hand. I think to me that feels just so special. Whereas digital, I feel like can sometimes feel disposable and so short lived.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Can you walk me through how you were approaching that pitching process?

What did that look like for you?

[Victoria Sasse]

I've tried it several different ways. I've relied a little bit on introductions from photographers or stylists that helped me on shoots. I've sent cold pitches to editors. I have not gone down the avenue of like DMing people on social media. I feel like that feels a little too informal.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What are you looking to achieve from publication?

[Victoria Sasse]

Yeah, that's a good question. Having the Credibility of being in a publication. If a client is looking to hire you, you, they see that you've been published in a national publication, then it, it automatically sort of validates your ability. Hopefully it would attract more clients that maybe would have a similar level of project or design that you might get to attract more. I think it all just boils down to credibility and proving to the world what you can do.

[Caitlin Peterson]

One of the things when you wrote.

In that you mentioned was, you know, this idea that it sort of feels like you have to pay in some way to get the attention of national media, you know, whether it's hiring a PR firm. One of your examples was, you know, taking these trips that put you sort of in touch with the right people.

What has that landscape looked like to you?

[Victoria Sasse]

It's a big mystery to me. I think a lot of people who engage a PR firm don't really talk about it much. I don't know, I just feel like there's sort of this like veiled mystery behind pr. And I know it's expensive because I've looked into it. I don't know that the juice would be worth the squeeze, you know, for me to be paying somebody a five thousand doll dollar retainer a month to get something that I don't even know will help my business or not. Clearly there is some level of investment. You know, at what point does it become cost prohibitive to photograph and promote these things when I'm really just trying to get more work and do and do better work.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It's no secret that the media landscape is changing rapidly. The rise of the Internet and social media have shifted the way traditional magazines tell stories, but they've also transformed the opportunities for storytelling that are available to designers themselves. Now our question asker wants more than anything to see her first great project appear in print. And I get that she's candid about the fact that part of what's driving her is the validation that magazine coverage offers a stamp of approval that you can show to future clients. It's a confidence boost. But she's also looking for other things, like the ability to broadcast that project to attract other clients in the future who want to do a similar caliber of work. Exploring that why, why you want to get press is what's most interesting to me in this conversation. And I think an honest look at what you want from being published as well as what your business needs is an essential step towards unscrambling a pretty confusing publishing landscape. When you get down to the why, sometimes your next steps might change and as we entered our call, I knew just who to connect with to help our question asker start to find some answers. All that and more in just a moment. This week's question is all about how to make sure your work grabs the attention of magazine editors. But before that can happen, your project needs to be ready for its moment in the spotlight with furnishings that reflect your vision while also withstanding the wear and tear of everyday life. Four Hands is here to help designers do just that with its new spring collection, which offers an array of fresh pieces crafted with premium materials like top grain leather, natural wood, and a new and exclusive line of performance textiles in partnership with Crypton fabric that together guarantee both style and and staying power. Explore the full [e-mail] today I'm joined by former Trade Tales guest Victoria Sasse, whose Minneapolis based firm is preparing to launch a design gallery that shines a light on Midwestern talent. When Victoria was on the show the first time, she spoke about how storytelling plays a crucial role in her approach to design when it comes to press coverage. That same strategy has also helped her get published. I thought she'd be the perfect person to answer today's question.

First of all, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for doing this with me.

[Victoria Sasse]

Oh, thanks, Caitlin. It's always good to hang out with you.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Well, I got to see you in Spain last week, but Trade Tales listeners heard from you back in 2021. So first of all, thank you for trusting me when this show was in its infancy and being one of our first guests. But also, what have you been up to since then, or what are you most excited about that you're working on now?

[Victoria Sasse]

First off, I just want to say it's amazing the continued relevancy of this series. I mean, the fact that you reminded me that it's been going on four years now since we've connected in this way. And I still listen and I still get so much out of your program. Thank you. That's really amazing and I'm just as excited to be back as I was then. I think it was a nice kind of milestone to look at the lessons learned and how I feel differently about our business now. I remember being feeling very green, very much like I was faking it till I was making it, and I still do in some ways. So speaking of things that I'm doing and kind of always challenging myself to be very green, we are starting a new arm to the prospect Refuge business. We're starting a gallery, a design gallery.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's amazing.

[Victoria Sasse]

Yeah, it opens in June. Our first year's programming is really showcasing a series of Midwestern design titans. I think we're starting with Jeremy Anderson of Jeremy Anderson's Ceramics, and then onward from there.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's amazing.

What inspired that or how long has that been brewing? What made you say this is the moment? And I want to add this and bring this conversation to the world.

[Victoria Sasse]

It's been brewing for a long time. I mean, I love product. I love finding really special things and makers and artisans and sharing them through our projects. But I do think there's sometimes where I have these ideas or I meet people and it just doesn't, you know, maybe gel with our particular set of projects at that time and having another outlet to share these voices and maybe even collaborate with some of them. We're doing some of our own furniture design collections that we'll be releasing intermittently as well. Just another way to kind of share what we do. We do so much custom design in our designs. It's kind of nice to have another outlet for all of that.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's amazing.

Can you tell me a little bit about the business model of the gallery? Are you staffing it? Is it appointment only? Like, how does that kind of logistically work and how does it sit alongside your design studio?

[Victoria Sasse]

I mean, it is a very different business model. We haven't fully, like, ask me again once we've had a year under our belts and I might have a different age. This is all like forecasting. Yeah. But we. We're going to have shows, so there will be a show component where we're inviting an artist in to just show their work. And then when we do our furniture collections, it'll probably be similar. It'll largely be E commerce based with intermittent show or studio hours that are open. We'll probably just staff it with our existing staff. But if it goes really well, you know, that's all. I'm very open to being flexible here. So we'll see.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Can you tell me a little bit?

You know, I think we talked about this in. At dinner in San Sebastian, but can you tell me a little bit about this idea of exporting the Midwest you were talking about that, I think with someone we were seated with. And I just as a fellow kind of Midwesterner by upbringing, if not at present, currently.

[Victoria Sasse]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I still feel like a Midwesterner also. I feel like New Yorkers every once in a while are like, you're from the Midwest, right? Like, I think you just carry that with you.

[Victoria Sasse]

That is the really amazing, beautiful thing That I think at you, you have this, let's call it Midwestern roots. I do think we're very. It's a very rooted kind of culture. And I was just talking to a good, good friend of mine the other day about how, like, once you have that, you always have that. And I don't know if I don't. I've only had my lived experience. I don't know if you're from California or another place, if you still feel that. Like, if I'm out in the world and I'm on vacation and I bump into another Midwesterner, it's like you're. You're instantly best friends.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yes.

[Victoria Sasse]

And it's a pretty broad region. I also think it's a really misunderstood, overlooked region. There's incredible talent here. I think getting to be off the beaten path allows you to go really deep into your, like, niche interests, which yields really magnetic results. But, you know, what's lacking is sort of a vehicle to the mainstream media, I think. And I think the more attention we get, the more we'll get. So that's what my hope is, is to just sort of be one more thread out there in the world. I mean, I also, somewhere along the way, decided I was going to come back here, raise a family here, and sort of come to terms with, like, okay, how am I going to have the career that I want that has more of a wider reach while living and working here? And I think being really proud of this place was a big part of it.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What are you most excited about these days when you walk into work?

[Victoria Sasse]

We've got a really amazing team. It's really lovely. We're attracting national talent right now, which is really exciting. We've got our first employee who is moving. She's never lived in the Midwest, and she's just moving here to come work for us, which is really exciting to me that the message of working and living in the Midwest is reaching people and attracting them to actually work and live here, which is really cool to me.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Well, congratulations. Are you ready to give some advice?

[Victoria Sasse]

I will do my best.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Well, this week we are fielding a question from a designer who is looking for insights on how to get published. She made a transition recently, but really reminded me of your story in the sense that she pivoted from a commercial career to the residential world. And when she called in, she was saying that she was really advertising. Press was a really important way for her to build her business. But she couldn't quite figure out how to get anybody to kind of pay Attention to what she wanted to put out into the world. I wanted to start by asking you, I think early in your career when you launched the studio, was press on your radar as sort of a key driver of growth or clients? Or was that something you were thinking about?

[Victoria Sasse]

Absolutely. I mean it's still something I think about a lot. I was thinking about when I very, very first started needing wanting that sort of external validation. Not only just for me and it's nice to feel, but I really wanted to put award winning on my bio line. And so, you know, went out and I think I was a member of the local chapter of our design organization ASID and you know, applied for some awards with them. This is like year one and was amazingly won a few and it was really fantastic. And I was like, great, now for the rest of my life I can put award winning on my bioline like no matter what, like it doesn't, you know, it made me think a lot about this person and wanting to put published in XYZ publication.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah, it means something, right?

[Victoria Sasse]

It totally means something. And it's, it is also one of those things where you will feel this constant pressure to do more but never forget, you know, like if it's for business purposes, you can, you know, it can be one sentence quote in a magazine online and then you can say as seen in X, Y, Z magazine online, you know, or you don't even have to say online. So I think from a how you market it perspective, there's, you know, there's getting the press and then there's what you do with it once you get it. And those are two kind of halves to the conversation that I think might be useful today.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Can you tell me about, I love this idea of being forevermore an award winning designer, award winning design studio. Can you tell me about the first time you got press, how that came about and what you were looking to get from it?

[Victoria Sasse]

I think it started local. Looking back, there was a lot of local relationships. You know, honing the art of, of an interview, of seeing, you know, okay, I say this to a person in the press and then I get this out of it. And how do you shape a story so that, so that that person presents what you need them to present a little bit, you know, learning how to work with people, developing those relationships, seeing how your photos show up in a printed piece of material, how you want to curate your voice in the press. I think doing that with a local on the local scene is really great. And for most designers, I think your local community is Your probably your bread and butter clients for at least when you're starting out. So I think that that's really important. Don't forget about that and come back to it throughout your career. When I think about the first significant piece of press that, where I really felt like, oh my gosh, this is the milestone I've been waiting for. That for me was getting new American Voices nomination in Architectural Digest. And that was like my first time where it was like my picture on a printed page in a national publication with some copy about our studio. Like, it felt really big to me and that, that did come about with help from a PR team.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I want to get to the PR firm in a second, but thinking about maybe just pitching like a project to start. What did the pitching process look like for you in the beginning and how has that changed?

[Victoria Sasse]

It's a lot about relationships. I think. We have this. I chuckle when I'm talking to other designers. Like, I think there's this perception that people get discovered. There's no, there's no, there's no getting discovered, at least in my. It's. It's just good old fashioned hard work and, and relationships and try to foster true, real, authentic relationships. I mean, you and, you and I, Caitlin, we see each other out in the real world. We have dinner together. I see us as, you know, as friends.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Victoria Sasse]

But maintaining that and really putting energy into, you know, remembering someone's birthday, saying, you know, saying so on social media, popping by when you're in their city, taking them out for coffee. And not in a what can I get out of this way, but just try to find your people in the press that you genuinely connect with and maintain a true, authentic relationship if you can. And that takes a lot of time. So I don't think there's like this overnight discovery where everyone's clamoring to print your story. It's sort of like, you know, sharing with people over a year that you're working on a project about the exciting project that you're working on. And then when it's photographed and you send it to them via email, they know a little bit about it because you've shared that journey with them. And I know, I know editors and journalists don't have gobs and gobs of time. So, you know, we're all very tight on time. But do do your best. I think that's been something I've tried to prioritize.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Mm.

Are you still working with a PR firm or you were working with a PR firm for a while. I know like when you launched your lighting line.

[Victoria Sasse]

Yes.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What was the spark to make that hire for you and how did that relationship change your approach?

[Victoria Sasse]

I think my, my first PR experience was with an independent contractor and she worked, she did more project based pitches. So I would shoot a project, I would collect all the assets, write some background information about it and I would share that with her and then she would just pitch that one project and try to get as much distribution as she could.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And you pay by the project or.

You pay by the placement for something like that?

[Victoria Sasse]

You paid by the project? I think it was hourly and sort of, there was sort of a. I mean you can't guarantee any kind of results. So it was kind of an hourly. With a, you know, conversation around what we're hoping the deliverables would be. You can kind of do multiple passes on a project so you could put it out to top tier national publications. Hopefully something happens there. Then there's sort of local, then there's sort of online and it can go all the way down into sort of like trend pieces online.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So you can just the one angle of the kitchen with a story about tile.

[Victoria Sasse]

Exactly. Let's talk about this specific color. Green, you know, is having a moment. Like you can chop it up and get a lot of longevity out of a single project. So that was kind of what you worked with. We would work with this person on and she would sort of go for the, you know, the big exclusive reveal and then how do we try to get more and more work out of it? And so, you know, each pass would require another kind of batch of hours and you could go as far as you wanted. So that was sort of like maybe an a la carte kind of a situation. And that's good, that's great. I would still do that today. I don't think any of these are sort of timestamped in my mind as like, do this early in your career, do this other thing later. Like there's times I still think about maybe it'd be worthwhile to go back to that person and just really push one project really hard and then we move to more of a firm. Like it's all they do. They're one of the best in the country. I love them still dearly, even though I don't, you know, work with them. My kind of immediate goals and needs changed temporarily and so I stepped away from them, but still keep in touch with them. I'd go back to them in a heartbeat if I would. I love them very much. And they had a team and they're very professional, very organized. They had a lot of really high profile clients. They were based in New York and or they still are based in New York and have a branch in la. And so for me that was really important, being where I physically am, to have a team that was based in a place that I couldn't be every night of the week. And I knew that they were going to all the events and they were kind of like my surrogate out in the world. They'd be out at dinners in the design community in New York City, sitting next to editors and talking about you and your work. Exactly. So that was really important for me because I couldn't go to a dinner every Thursday, Friday, Saturday night in New York City. And I worked with them for years and we did a lot of really amazing things and I hit a lot of those big milestones with them. They really delivered on a lot of my goals. And then just recently about in the past year, I switched to. Actually, he's like one of my very, very best friends who used to do PR in la, moved back to the Midwest and because we had some really local goals with the this gallery and some things that I needed kind of more boots on the ground here in my community, I transitioned to working with him. And these, both the team and then this particular individual approach kind of cost the same. You get different things out of it though. Like, he's really helping me, like build this gallery, like build this website. Brand consulting. Like he's going much deeper into our brand. Whereas, you know, a PR firm was more focused on getting you press, getting you mentioned in the media, and me, you know, developing the product was more on my own. So, I mean, I think you get really close to your PR team. At least I did. Like, I felt like they get to know you really well. It's kind of like our clients, right? Like we get to know each other so intimately and our goals and our hopes and our dreams. At least that's what I think the goal should be.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about what your goals were when you pivoted to working with that New York, LA based firm? And how did you see kind of their connections at work for you? I feel like our question asker was sort of like, oh, there's this cone of silence. And I read that to be almost like, well, what does that feel like to have someone behind you with their foot on the gas?

[Victoria Sasse]

This is me with a year's distance reflecting back on that time a little bit. I totally can Identify with the person asking the question that I was at a very similar place when I started working with this national firm.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What do I get for all this money?

[Victoria Sasse]

What do I get for all this money? And what is it going to make a difference in my business and what are my goals? And I do think knowing your goals is very, very important. It's very difficult because you're sort of like, well, I don't know what I don't know. Like a big conversation we had over and over again is like, do I want to be a personality or do I want to be a design firm? Like a collection of people like am I the face? Is the studio the face? And I still have that conversation every day. You know, am I trying to win awards? Am I trying to get design work or am I trying to build like a lifestyle brand? So knowing what you're looking for, knowing are you trying to get a TV show? Are you trying to get like big, hairy, scary long term goal, are you trying to have a series of books be published about you? Are you just trying to get clients? If your goal. It sounded like from the question that this person was like trying to get press in order to get work. And I think that it feels like a direct line to getting clients. But I don't know if it's having a couple years now behind me in doing that and getting national press. I don't know if it's as direct. It definitely has an impact on how you're perceived, but it's more indirect than direct. I think there's more direct ways to get clients than through being published.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I think the number of people who tell me, you know, I worked so hard, I got into whatever X magazine and then nothing happened. I hear that all the time from a good article.

[Victoria Sasse]

I probably net two clients directly. That's a broad generalization, but I would probably say about two clients and they're various sizes, you know, they're not always like my biggest clients. So, you know, I think you usually get something out of it, but it's not enough to keep a firm alive on press alone, in my opinion.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah, you said from a good article. I think that's actually also worth exploring because not every mention is going to help you achieve your goals, I would imagine.

[Victoria Sasse]

No, I mean I think when I say good article, that's. Yeah, that's very subjective. I mean one that ends up, I don't know the magic of, you know, there's sort of like some projects that are just right time, right place, right publication and they just sort of take off on a life of their own. And I find that those projects I'm still talking about, like five, six, seven years later, they come out of the woodwork and people are like, I want to talk about this bedroom again, this hot chocolate, you know, bedroom that you designed. So it's not to say that, you know, the project's not good or the article wasn't good or the publication wasn't good. I don't know. I think it's more about like, right time, right place, it happens to hit just as a trend is cresting or there's some sort of like social conversation around, I don't know, well, being or whatever your project happens to exhibit. And there's no real way to know, in my opinion, when you're going to get that magical moment. And when you're not, I don't think you can fabricate it. You just.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Or even like strive for it, right?

[Victoria Sasse]

No, you just have to put out what you have when you have it and just keep going, just keep hustling.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I love the way you explained working with your initial PR person on the project basis that, you know, you're going to the nationals first, then locals, then you're going to break it up.

Maybe.

Can you talk about that print versus digital divide of where you want your work to appear and also this idea of breaking up a project versus saving it to publish it kind of as a complete unit.

[Victoria Sasse]

Yeah, I mean, I think there are just some requests and it's changing, it's changing so fast. So the. By the time this goes out there in the world, you know, it's changing every day. Where larger publications want exclusivity on a whole project and so, you know, holding it off of social media, holding it off of your website, holding it, holding as much of it back for as long as you can until you get that can be an asset. Now there's a lot of publications that don't require that or aren't that strict about it. So, you know, you have to sort of decide what your business can sustain. When I was early on, I couldn't afford to not show my work like I had to show it and then, you know, hope that whoever I worked with was okay with that.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Does that mean just like putting it on your website, putting it on social.

[Victoria Sasse]

Yep, putting on your website, putting on your social in like a limited capacity, sneak peeks, things like that. Now we have a little bit more of a rolling port, you know, portfolio bank of work in our back pocket that I can kind of just wait. I Also kind of have grown to love the sort of like the quiet moments where I'm not really present out there. And then we sort of have these like louder big bangs where people are like, oh my gosh, you're everywhere. You've got a lighting collection, you've got a gallery, you've got a story coming out. It seems like you're everywhere. And I'm like, yeah, that's like an entire year's worth of work that just sort of culminated all at once in, in the media. And then I sort of have these stretches in between where, where it's sort of quieter. And I think it's nice to give people a relief as well as the impression so that they don't just get tired of hearing about you all the time. I get wanting to be published in print. I still feel that pull every day. It's getting harder and harder. Even the big publications are doing less issues. Everything's going more digital. I do think that mentality of like print lasts longer is counterintuitive. I think digital will yield longer, more fruitful results for your business. I think people can look up when they Google you. They will still be seeing, you know, a digital story months, years, decades later. Whereas that physical copy of that magazine probably won't stay on their coffee table very long.

[Caitlin Peterson]

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I just say, like I was looking up. When did we first connect for an interview? And it was when I was at business of home, but I was writing a column for House Beautiful about historic homes and I had a really insane Google search going looking for designers in the Midwest because I was only talking to people on the coast for that story at the time and I was looking for designers in the Midwest who had something thoughtful to say about historic renovations. And I found you talking to, I think someone locally about your Philosophy around historic homes and kind of the soul of a home. And if that was just in print, I would have never found it.

[Victoria Sasse]

Exactly.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It's searchable. You know, I don't know how old that was when I found it, but I remember being like, oh, I. This person is thoughtful about the subject I'm looking for. And then I met you and found out that you were thoughtful on a whole wide variety of subjects. But that, to me, kind of in a weird way illustrates a lot of what you've been talking about. Like, you know, it was local, but it's something that you can find and build on for a long time.

[Victoria Sasse]

I want to piggyback off of what you just said about your journey as, you know, a journalist as something I was going to mention this person, they're feeling like, you know, they're getting introductions to, I'm guessing, editors or writers at publications. They're sending emails. It can be kind of a long game. But, you know, sometimes getting one quote in a digital piece through House Beautiful or whatever, you know, the number of people who started who I, you know, I've been doing this for 10 years now, who I started talking to 10 years ago, and they were writing online pieces and, you know, had fast and furious deadlines for me of like, can I get a quote on this? And can I get a quote on that? And we were talking then. They are now, you know, senior editors. They are now moving up the ranks. And so again, just to stress the power of, like, true, authentic relationships, don't always go to the top of the masthead either. Like.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Well, and I will say, as someone at the top of the masthead who gets hundreds of emails a day and we don't publish projects, but if that's what you're looking for. You know, when I worked at Shelter magazines, there's a person whose job it is to field submissions. That person is going to be such a better contact than the editor in chief.

[Victoria Sasse]

Absolutely. Go look up articles that you like, how they were written, that you like, how they are portrayed. Connect with those writers and ask them, what are you working on right now? Here's a portfolio of my work. Here's some images, here's some trends that I'm seeing because they probably are, you know, spread so thin and have so many deadlines on so many things, or it plants a seed. The number of times I've gone on, off on a tangent on something. And then that writer came back to me months later and was like, you know that thing you said about the color red or Whatever. I'm writing a piece about that now and yes. Can I get that picture? Can I get that quote again, whatever it is? So it's a long term investment. I don't think that there's any shortcut. If somebody had a shortcut to get your work published in print, they would be doing very well. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of relationships. And let them know your goals. Say, you know, I'd really. I've got this really big project. I really would love to, you know, get some good. Here's what the story is about too. You really have to tell them. I found it's really helpful if you go to writers and say, this is what inspired us. These were the issues that we overcame. This is what's interesting about our project. It's really hard to get that just from photos. In fact, I had a funny story. I just recently I had a really project I'm really, really proud of. And we had it. We had pitched it, kind of went through all the channels, just kind of based on images alone. I hadn't really done the work myself. I was very busy. I hadn't sat down and like wrote that story about what is this project about? And. And my PR person was pitching it, like great pictures. Nobody was biting. Everybody was like, oh, you know, it's just not the right time. We've got a full, you know, agenda, blah, blah, blah.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Victoria Sasse]

And I sat down, I was like, okay, I love this project. It's a really good project. And I wrote all this information about like the journey, the difficulties, what's interesting about it, where we got our ideas from, who helped us, like artists that contributed to the project, all this information. And we pitched it again and it got picked up for print. It's amazing what a difference it makes. You get out what you put in. You can't. They're not mind readers. And you have to make that project feel magical to the person that you're presenting it to.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You know, the story is what makes it stand out. There's great work in every issue of a magazine, but the stories, the stories are kind of what rise to the top, I think.

[Victoria Sasse]

And it's hard if you don't have celebrity clients. You know, there's a lot right now, I think print, and we all like seeing that. You know, I'm not saying that I'm not throwing shade at anybody for wanting to show that. Like, I like seeing Kendall Jenner's house as much as the next person for a variety of reasons, actually really Liked that house too. Yeah, you know, so. But it's. There's a lot of people interested in the design media, publications for a variety of reasons. You have a lot of voices to compete with, so you really have to put in the energy to. To talk about your vision. It can't just be a pretty project. I actually, I have a really good friend who's like, Elle Decor a lister. And she's super talented. I admire her immensely. And she was, you know, talking to me about going to Elle Decor with a really good project, and they were like, we're just. We're full. We don't have anything. So just to say, don't feel bad. Even El Decor A Listers have. Have trouble getting their product projects published as well. Totally.

[Caitlin Peterson]

One thing I want to kind of go back to for this question asker is it sounded to me like, you know, this project that she's trying to place is her, like, first great project. I know. She said to me this idea that, you know, this is the first thing since I launched my studio that, like, just in completeness, you know, like, it feels whole, it feels worth it. But also what she wants to get from publishing it is in part, more work. Like that project.

Right.

Like, I want to show people what I can do so that more clients come to me looking for this. Is press actually the right place for that, or, you know, as you're looking to get more clients, are there other things you would suggest to do with those assets?

[Victoria Sasse]

I think yes, to a point. I think it. It also just depends on your circumstances. Like, for me, being where I am physically, like, I'm not in a major metropolitan area and just Midwestern culture as well. Like, I had to get external validation in order to get internal validation. Like, they get really. The local community gets really excited. I joke and I call it like the. The Bob Dylan effect. Like, you have to go to New York and be validated there in order to be accepted here. And, you know, I'm part of this community as well. I'm sure I do the exact same thing. You know, where you're like, so for me, that was like a big piece of it. I was like, I need that. I do. I need that external validation for my community to see my worth. But then once you get it, the trap is to have to keep needing it forever. I think, like, it's great to get your work out there, it's great to get it published, but just be careful that it doesn't become an obsession that you, like, don't feel valid without it, right?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Or like, oh, I couldn't get this published, therefore my work wasn't good.

[Victoria Sasse]

Yes, exactly. Like, you have to be really, the more clear you can be about what your goals are. If it's to get projects, you're honestly, you're going to get more clients out of what you do with an article. So be really thoughtful about, you know, okay, when I get published, when this project gets published, what's your social media strategy? What's your website strategy? How are you going to, you know, stretch that into podcast interviews or, you know, how do you keep that experience going? I mean, I was adding New American Voice years ago, still talking about it. You know, you only have to get it, get it once and then kind of look at the next opportunity. I made the mistake when I won those ASID awards of not having a strategy, and I had a lot of people be like, so you did this thing, you won all these awards? Like, it's hard for me to say as a Midwesterner, but I kind of like swept the award, the award season that year. Like, I did really well. I think I got like, best in show for one of the projects and I just, I didn't promote it. I didn't put it out there on the back end. I just sort of went, cool, thanks. External validation only. And like, be really careful what you do to self promote after you get that. And you can take that really, really far. And what might be really good for that person, just thinking about, like, to give them, like, really tangible. Yeah, okay. When I was first trying to discover, like, who could even help me in the world of PR and like, who I wanted to partner with, I spent a lot of time deep diving on Instagram, like, Architectural Digest, Instagram page, all the major publications of, like, who are they tagging in these posts? Like, it's really hard to kind of find the PR people behind the stars, but if you spend enough time, like, intentionally looking at who they give props to, who they give shout outs to, you can sort of discover the agencies or the individual players and start to research them, interview them, see, you know, which approach feels right to you. Do you, do you align more with a big team approach? There's a lot of just individual PR people out there who do amazing things, and I don't even think you can get just as much really big, good placement with an individual person. It's sort of like making sure they understand your goals. Pricing can be a big piece of it too. You know, what do they charge? I will never not have PR be part of my budget ever again. Like, I don't think I can go back. So asking about, like, is the money? Is it worth the investment? I don't know. Maybe that speaks to itself of, like, I can't see a world. I mean, barring any, like, significant financial hardship, I can't see a world where I would not prioritize that it's part of my expenses.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah. Was that always true, or was there. Is there a moment in your business where that becomes true?

[Victoria Sasse]

I mean, I think, you know, it's really hard that first year to make room for something new. It's kind of like taking on your first employee or, you know, taking on a physical space. You sort of feel like, oh, my God, how am I going to be able to afford this? And then, you know, you figure out a way to afford it, and then, you know, you're onto the next thing, and then you always have room for it. And I think being realistic about what you want to accomplish, that's the hardest part, is you go in and they're like, okay, what do you want to do? And you're like, I don't know what's possible? And so. But if you can spend some time really being honest with yourself, I think that's another one, is, like, maybe people aren't honest with them. This is from me talking to my friend PR person who I work with now. He's very candid with me about, like, the different types of personalities he works with. Yeah.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah.

[Victoria Sasse]

Some people aren't honest that they want to be famous or vice versa, that they like, oh, I. I just. I'll be famous and then it'll solve all my problems. When it's like, well, maybe you really don't like being in front of the camera, and you should just be really truthful with what your actual goals are. I also think it takes a lot of time. I myself was very prone to thinking, like, this isn't working. I think social media strategies are the exact same way. You jump in and it all goes very fast, and you feel like you should get results faster. Like, give it at least a year. Like, it takes a long time for publications to get back to your PR person. If you do hire one, just, like, you're feeling squeamish about dming people, you know, like, listening to the question before. The PR person, like, can't write that editor every single day, even though to.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You it feels some of them do, and we wish they wouldn't exactly.

[Victoria Sasse]

Like, you have to sort of trust that they're doing their job. In the appropriate time spans and give it time. So, I mean, I really, like, set myself a year goal of, like, I'm going to work with this team for a year and not jump ship because it takes time. I try to do the same with other strategies.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Can we talk really quickly just about the cost to even get ready to pitch your work and how you think about that sort of separate from the cost of a PR relationship?

[Victoria Sasse]

I spend a lot of time thinking about the true cost of things. A lot of time, because as I get my firm gets bigger, my life gets busier. I think about how many hours do I have to invest in the pursuit of this versus, you know, being able to delegate it to someone else. I think about. I think about earned media a lot versus paid media. We, at this point, don't advertise. We have experimented a little bit with some local advertising in the past, and I think it just wasn't the right time or the right fit. I'm never saying never. I never say never to anything. But for right now, I'm really interested in earned media, which can feel like a financial decision. Like it's quote, unquote, cheaper to do a podcast with you. Caitlin. I'm not paying anything for this opportunity. I'm not being paid anything for this opportunity. But it takes time. You know, it takes time for us to coordinate, set it up, do the interview. And what does that mean financially, you know, for a bigger opportunity? What do you want out of it? So I think, you know, looking at your budget and seeing what can you afford, but also, what are you getting back in terms of design? Time is important. If you're spending, like, track your time, how much time are you and your team spending? Emailing, sending assets, collecting things, going on trips? I think I heard you mention going on, like, media trips that could take a week of your life away from your projects. Like, what does that cost you in billable design? Time. And beyond that, energy, you know, space in your brain. If I'm so focused on pr, I'm not able to plan opening my gallery, that's something only I can do. So I really think about, like, is this something that I'm the best at, that only I can do? As my hours in the day become more and more limited, if there's someone else who can take that on for me and do a better job than me, then to me, that's financially valuable. It costs thousands of dollars. I mean, photography is tens of thousands of dollars. You know, it's like rent. It's like paying rent on A space. There's shades. I do think starting off with that project based approach, I'd highly recommend that for someone who's new to the PR scene. Also know that there's like a lot of different ways. There's nuances within the industry. All PR firms are not created equal. And that's not to say that there's good and bad, but there's ones that are focused more on getting that national publication story run and then there's others that can help you. Like right now I'm focused on kind of these abstract ideas of like gallery opening and events and less classical press coverage. And so, you know, finding a PR person that can help me more in that direction. There's a lot of. Just as there's a million ways to design a house and there's a million designers to help you do it, there's a million PR people out there. It is tough because they're all kind of people who are behind the stock. You know, they're sort of, they work behind the brands that they're representing, so they're sort of in the shadows of the experience, which is hard to find them. But once you start looking and collecting names, ask your designer friends, like, hopefully people are being transparent about it. I don't anyone who's representing that like fame just fell in their laps. I mean, I'm sure it happens to a few people in this world, but I don't think that's the common experience. Most people have to work really hard to be seen in this world.

[Caitlin Peterson]

We have an experts directory at BOH where there are listings of PR people large and small.

[Victoria Sasse]

I think I know that that's really a good place to start.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You know, if you're just looking for sort of a list of people who have written a couple paragraphs about who they are and what they do, but it's a good list. It's a good jumping off point for firms that, that want to make connections with the design community.

[Victoria Sasse]

Oh my God, that's so smart. Yeah, I would go to that and I would like interview 10 of them just to hear like how they talk about their offerings, get pricing information. How do they all compare? What does an hourly versus a retainer look like? Yeah, I think that would be great.

[Caitlin Peterson]

This has been amazing. Thank you for all of the insight, for all of the advice. I wanted to close with a question in a little bit of a different vein. What is the best piece of advice you've ever received?

[Victoria Sasse]

So I knew you were going to ask me this and I've been Thinking about. I'm a notorious. I am notoriously bad at taking advice. I have a really. Okay, it's ironic that I'm here on a podcast. I get that. But what I really appreciate is when people pose a question to me that I can't immediately answer. And I, I know that it's because it's like the foundation of like a bigger, A bigger issue for me. And so something I've been working on lately, a good friend asked me is like, we say, we use the shorthand a lot. Like, what is the sun? What is the sun of our experience that all the planets revolve around? Like, at my studio, is it me? Am I the sun? And everything revolves around me? Is the studio the sun? Is the design the sun? Like, what is the life giving energy? What is the thing that gets you out of bed every day and that everything should support and revolve around? And I think that on this PR that could be applicable here on this PR journey if you can think about what is it that you're trying to talk about and support? Is it your design services? Is it you and your perspective on design? Is it? And it's going to be a little bit of all of these things, but, like, what is the ultimate thing that gives you energy at the end of the day? And how do you amplify that? So that's the question. That's the question. It's not really advice, but it's more of a. More of a question, a thought starter. There we go. That's been eating me up a lot lately. In a good way.

[Caitlin Peterson]

In a good way. That's amazing. Well, thank you so, so much.

[Victoria Sasse]

Absolutely. Good talking with you, Caitlin.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone listening with a question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry, we'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an [e-mail] if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. And if you're looking for even more great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com Tradetale is pretty produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see.

You here next week.