Ask Us Anything: Zoë Feldman on how to measure an employee’s design skills

Summary

Trade Tales: Ask Us Anything — Zoë Feldman on How to Measure an Employee’s Design Skills

Podcast: Trade Tales by Business of Home
Host: Kaitlin Petersen
Guest: Zoë Feldman, Interior Designer and Principal
Date: May 13, 2026

---

Overview

In this episode, host Kaitlin Petersen addresses a poignant question from a design firm owner grappling with how to assess and manage an employee whose personality and work ethic are outstanding—but whose aesthetic consistently misses the firm's mark. Zoë Feldman, a seasoned principal known for her thoughtful hiring processes and leadership, joins the conversation to offer her approach for evaluating creative talent and ensuring a good aesthetic fit within a design firm.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dilemma: Skills vs. Aesthetic Alignment

(00:53 – 05:38)

• The Problem:
  The episode begins with a question from a design firm owner (“B”) who has an employee that is “awesome” by every metric except the most crucial: the alignment of his design aesthetic with the firm’s established, traditional style.
  • “He has a great work ethic. I can trust him with our clients. …The work is great. It's just not good for our clients.” (B, 00:53–02:15).
• Attempts to Fix:
  Multiple attempts were made to help the employee adapt—assigning different projects, adjusting project scopes, and reassigning responsibilities failed to result in the necessary alignment.
  • “…I'm constantly making reselections, I'm constantly having to fix things.” (B, 01:30)
• Business Ramifications:
  The employee mismatch created significant inefficiencies, billable time wasted on rework, and ultimately an inability to take on additional projects without impacting the bottom line.
  • “It's a lot of wasted time. And then that's unbelievable time to the client. And I can't make money on making these changes constantly.” (B, 03:35)

2. Seeking Solutions: How to Measure Subjective Skills

(04:57 – 06:00)

• The Big Question:
  How can a principal objectively measure something as subjective as aesthetic alignment, and how can this be documented in performance reviews or HR processes?
  • “What metric can I have for designer's interpretation matching my own?” (B, 04:57)

---

3. Zoë Feldman’s Approach to Hiring & Measurement

(07:29 – 19:04)

A. Building a Rigorous & Multi-Layered Hiring Process

(11:54 – 16:20)

• Evolution from “Gut Feeling” to Systematic Screening:
  Early on, Zoë relied on instincts or superficial cues. Now, her firm uses a detailed, multi-stage hiring protocol, incorporating personality assessments (“16 Personalities”, a Myers–Briggs derivative), team-compatibility analysis, and nontraditional interview questions.

  • “I used to go off the cuff. I used to, like, see someone and be like, oh, I like their outfit. You're hired.” (Zoë, 12:16)
  • “People talk about it once they get hired. Like, ‘oh, my God, I had four interviews or five interviews…’” (Zoë, 11:54)

• Core Elements of the Process:

  • Broad candidate search via multiple platforms (Instagram, LinkedIn, Business of Home)
  • Resume review for formal education, relevant firm experience, and unique value (e.g., college athletes)
  • Multiple interviews—starting with operations/direction staff, concluding with Zoë
  • Use of purposely challenging and introspective questions focused on judgment, adaptability, and culture fit
    • “Tell me about a decision where there were no clearly right answers and how did you evaluate the options?”
    • “Describe a time you felt emotionally charged in a disagreement at work. What did you do in the moment?” (Zoë, 15:56)

• Notable Quote on Culture Fit:

  • “An employee can be amazing in every way, but if they're not aligned with our company culture, it will ultimately be a failure.” (Zoë, 16:51)

B. Aesthetic Stress Testing

(18:05 – 19:04)

• Practical Tests:
  Candidates are often asked to create sample boards or discuss their influences—art, travel, and sources beyond Pinterest or Instagram—to “gut check” their passion and creative depth.
  • “We're not interested in someone who just, like, loves Pinterest and loves Instagram. We want someone who's more, like, steeped in it.” (Zoë, 18:45)

---

4. Managing and Redirecting Talent

(19:13 – 21:32)

• Finding the Right Seat:
  If a promising employee isn’t a fit for the design side, Zoë advocates for repositioning rather than immediate dismissal—leveraging other strengths in project management or marketing.
  • “I have successfully redirected employees to other types of work within our firm. …because the employee is really strong.” (Zoë, 19:20)
• When Reassignment Fails:
  Reassignment isn’t always possible, especially if broader performance issues exist.
  • “I've only been unsuccessful in it when they're not really a strong employee.” (Zoë, 21:41)

---

5. What Constitutes “Good” Designer Performance?

(23:18 – 25:45)

• Task Completion Is Not Enough:
  Being “well liked” or a “nice person” is merely the starting point; delivering against the client brief is mandatory.
  • “Being well liked at work is… not really a thing. …If he's not listening to the briefs and he's not listening to the client, is he doing a good job?” (Zoë, 23:18–23:56)

A. Quantitative & Qualitative Benchmarks

• Goal Setting:
  Employees set annual, then mid-year-reviewed goals jointly with managers—for performance reviews, raises, and growth.
  • “We set up goals in the beginning of the year, and then we meet halfway through the year to see how we're tracking.” (Zoë, 24:08)
• Sample Metrics:
  • Progress on projects and overall output
  • Profitability and use of time
  • Adherence to established process
  • New business/networking contributions
  • Proportion of work “photographable” for marketing
    • “Are they producing work that our marketing team is excited by?” (Zoë, 25:13)
  • Client engagement and feedback

---

6. Should Employees “Challenge” the Principal’s Aesthetic?

(27:37 – 30:29)

• Diversity in Design:
  Zoë prefers hiring designers with their unique perspectives, not clones of her own style, valuing growth and evolution for the entire firm.
  • “…I don't think we have a specific look. …Each designer has a bit of their own look. …I love that because we get different projects…and we love to do that.” (Zoë, 28:05–28:51)
  • “Hire people better than you.” (Zoë, 29:56 [paraphrasing a mentor], echoed at 35:47)

---

7. Setting the Tone for Growth & Feedback

(30:29 – 32:32)

• Boot Camp Mindset:
  New hires experience a “boot camp” period, where lots of direct feedback is the norm, and iteration is encouraged; growth comes through candid, even blunt, critique.
  • “I'm just gonna let you know that I might hate every single thing you put in front of me for the first three months. And that's okay, and that's to be expected.” (Zoë, 30:45)
• Embracing Failure:
  Zoë believes strongly in normalizing failure and growth as part of the creative process.
  • “We do not normalize failure enough and we don't normalize growth enough.” (Zoë, 31:35)

---

8. Self-Reflection as Leadership

(33:16 – 35:41)

• 360° Reviews:
  Zoë describes the humbling experience of inviting anonymous feedback from her own team and facing criticisms head-on, resulting in her own growth as a leader.
  • “In order to be a good employee employer, you have to be willing to look at yourself and be accountable for the parts that you're playing in, their inability to perform right. And once you sort through that, I actually now think I'm an amazing boss…” (Zoë, 34:08–35:00)

---

9. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “An employee can be amazing in every way, but if they're not aligned with our company culture, it will ultimately be a failure.”
  — Zoë Feldman, 16:51

• “If he's not listening to the briefs and he's not listening to the client, is he doing a good job? Because that's feeling like that's part of the job.”
  — Zoë Feldman, 23:37

• “Hire people better than you.”
  — Zoë Feldman quoting a mentor, 29:56 & 35:47

• “We do not normalize failure enough and we don't normalize growth enough.”
  — Zoë Feldman, 31:35

• “[360 reviews]…was horrible. I’ll never do it again. I thought, two years. I feel like I've paid my penance.”
  — Zoë Feldman, 35:00

• “If you can learn from the people around you, from their mistakes and not make them all yourself, you will have a much easier life.”
  — Zoë Feldman, 36:23

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:53 | Caller explains problem: valued team member, but aesthetic doesn’t fit the firm | | 03:26 | Discussing inefficient rework, impact on team and profitability | | 04:57 | The challenge of measuring subjective creative performance | | 11:54 | Zoë outlines her multi-stage hiring process | | 15:56 | Unique interview questions focused on judgment and adaptability | | 16:51 | Emphasis on culture fit as essential to long-term success | | 18:05 | Aesthetic “stress tests” in interviews | | 19:20 | Redirecting team members to new roles when possible | | 23:18 | Why likability isn’t enough in design | | 24:08 | Annual and mid-year performance goal-setting at Feldman’s firm | | 25:13 | Measuring “photographable” work for marketing | | 28:05 | Intentional hiring of designers with varied aesthetics | | 30:45 | Bootcamp mindset and candid feedback for new hires | | 31:35 | Normalizing failure and growth | | 34:08 | Zoë’s approach to self-assessment and 360° reviews | | 35:47 | “Hire people better than you” and seeking mentorship |

---

Takeaways & Actionable Advice

• Create a rigorous hiring process that goes beyond resumes and gut feelings; use personality assessments, team interviews, practical assignments, and in-depth questions.
• Define and document your firm’s aesthetic—or at least your client expectations—and “stress test” candidates on their ability to align.
• Be proactive about redirection, especially when an employee is valuable in other ways, but also know when letting go is necessary.
• Set clear goals and regular check-ins for all staff to measure both objective output and more subjective elements (like design alignment and client feedback).
• Openly embrace and normalize feedback, failure, and growth for both team members and yourself as a principal.
• Surround yourself with people better than you—and always look to learn from others’ experiences.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode is a practical and candid resource for firm leaders seeking clarity in hiring, nurturing, and measuring creative talent—especially when aesthetic fit is at stake. Feldman and Petersen offer not just roadmaps and metrics, but a culture-forward, humble perspective on leadership in the creative industry.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Ask Us Anything where we're tapping your favorite Trade Tales guests to answer all of your questions about building a better design business. Some weeks, we'll be stepping in to solve a pressing issue. In others, we'll take a step back to talk about the big picture. Things like embracing change, hiring, or how to level up. No question is out of bounds. No question is too large or too small. And we're keeping it confidential so that this is always a safe space to air your frustrations and share your fears. This week we're hearing from a designer with a question about an employee who is nearly a perfect fit for the firm, except for this one thing.

[B]

We have a designer who's been working with us for about a year and a half. It's very difficult because everybody loves him. He's awesome. He has a great work ethic. I can trust him with our clients. I trust his communication, and he's such a good ad. The problem is that his job is as a designer, and it just feels like our design aesthetics are not meshing well.

[A]

Our question asker doesn't necessarily think that his employee has bad taste, but the work doesn't match with the firm's aesthetic or what its clients really want. Now the designer is wondering how to prevent this kind of misalignment from happening again.

[B]

Our design style is a bit more traditional, and he is in love with modern design. And while there has been some movement and some wins, for the most part, it feels like I'm constantly making reselections, I'm constantly having to fix things. And it's gotten to the point where I've had to reduce his involvement in most of our projects down to one, and it still feels like it's not enough time and attention to adjust. So my problem is how do you let go of someone who is so great? And I don't have any marks really against him other than conversations, but I don't have anything written down that says he's not performing well because design be subjective. How do you navigate letting someone go?

[A]

And is the work good just not right for your firm?

[B]

Yeah, the work is great. That's a great way to say it. The work is great. It's just not good for our clients.

[A]

Right. Or for what you probably want to publish under your firm name.

[B]

Yeah, it doesn't fit in through my lens. And so it's very difficult for him to understand that because he's producing something that is good, but it still has to go through my interpretation, how have

[A]

those conversations looked to date?

[B]

I tried saving it by pushing him to different projects. So I would pull him off a project that I just felt like he wasn't successful on, trying a different one. To see how successful he could be, I also tried the different levels of design. Is it a single room? Is he best at doing a full home? Is he best at making selections versus furnishings? Those were all the things that we were trying to give space for him to be successful. And it just didn't seem like he could grasp it. And the conversations were fine because he seemed like he was understanding what I was meaning. But I could tell, like, during our standard conversations, he would just love something and think the client would want it. And I'm like, it doesn't hit any brief that the client asked us, so you keep filtering it through your own lens. You're not watching the brief.

[A]

Yeah, that's so hard. That also creates so much extra work in oversight and just extra work for you and probably for the rest of your team, too.

[B]

Yeah, it was a lot of extra work. It's a lot of wasted time. And then that's unbelievable time to the client. And I can't make money on making these changes constantly. And now we can't take an additional project because I'm tied up in doing a design a second time. And I think sometimes your employees don't understand that. They just think, oh, we're just working and everybody's paying us and it's not the case. You know, it's not how that works.

[A]

Yeah. How did this eventually resolve for you?

[B]

I just was to the point that I resolved it by saying, I just can't keep being stressed out about this and the amount of money we are putting into their salary. It's just I'm not getting my return. And so we had conversations about it and then was like, hey, like, if we can't make this work within the next month, I think we're just going to have to split ways. And so that's kind of what happened.

[A]

If you, you know, in asking this question, what clarity are you hoping to get from another firm who's had a similar experience?

[B]

Yeah, the clarity is how do you navigate and how do you document something like this without it seeming so controversial? If I have metrics that a designer needs to hit or some other team member, that's much easier. If it's something that is measurable but subjective design is that measurable. What metric can I have for designers Interpretation? Matching my own.

[A]

Is it something you would ever run up against before.

[B]

Yes, actually, funny enough, it was. And thankfully the employee also just felt like it wasn't a good fit. And this employee thinks we're a good fit. That's the tricky part. Yes.

[A]

Right, right, right. It's someone who doesn't see the mismatch correct.

[B]

They see it as, oh, we are helping advance your firm by challenging what you do and showing you other opportunities. And we're like, no, we're established. I don't need to be challenged in that area. I need to hit the brief the client requested.

[A]

How do you truly set benchmarks to measure design talent? And are there safeguards a firm can put in place during the hiring process to prevent a mismatch? As we ended our call, I knew just who to connect with. Someone who puts every potential hire through an aesthetic stress test and who has found ways to clearly define their firm's style while welcoming new points of view. All that and more in just a moment. Now that I've finally had time to digest what I saw at High Point Market a few weeks ago, what's truly stuck with me are some of the incredible introductions that I experienced at Four Hands. I always fall in love with the smallest chairs in the showroom, and there were so many to capture my imagination this spring, like the bullion fringe trimmed Aurora Swivel chair in a rich plum or the Alonia Accent stool with a low back, arched leg detail and piping that pops against flax linen. I'm also completely obsessed with a Collier chaise which features a cord wrapped frame, basket weave detailing on the sides and a perfectly pleated upholstered seat. There's so much to discover at Four Hands, no matter your style, and you can explore the collection for yourself and start sourcing for your next [e-mail] Tradetales today I'm joined by Zoe Feldman as a guest on Trade Tales. In 2023, she shared how a well timed piece of advice inspired her to grow her firm from a team of five to to nearly three dozen. She's done the hard work to build a solid and sizable team, and I thought she'd be the perfect person to answer today's question. Zoe, welcome back to the show.

[C]

Thanks Caitlin. I'm so glad to be here.

[A]

These past few years have had some major ups and downs for the design industry, but what have things looked like for you and at your firm?

[C]

Well, we we've been really lucky. We've had some really positive change in our firm. We grew from a office only in D.C. to also establishing an office in New York City. We have grown. I don't know how many was I in 2023. Do you remember?

[A]

It was, like, about two dozen. So another 12 team members.

[C]

Yeah, another 12 team members. We launched an entirely new arm of our firm, which is called Demi, that focuses on smaller scope. So that's really exciting. And it's like a whole different muscle that we're using. It's a whole different way to design. We've launched collaborations. I'm writing a book. I sold a house. I bought a house. I'm renovating a house.

[A]

Casual, three years. What surprised you most about having offices in two cities?

[C]

It's a little more difficult than I expected to manage a team in another city, but in a good way, because it's forced me to back up a bit and put trust into a team. And I already trusted the team. I wouldn't have, you know, started the office there if I didn't. And so that's been kind of exciting. But it's a little bit of a challenge because it has to be a lot more virtual than we do here. And so that's just a little different for me, probably because of my age. I like to, you know, hang out, be hands on.

[A]

Totally. Do you mean it's a little more virtual in terms of your relationship with the team or your relationship with the clients or the team's relationship with the

[C]

clients or the team more so. I go up for a lot of client meetings and things, but you have to put a lot more trust in your. You know, you're not there every day to make sure that things are going smoothly, just like, visually.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

And so it's. But, you know, I'm okay with that.

[A]

It's just an adjustment, I would imagine, in how you think about what it means to be the boss.

[C]

It is. And also, it's put me in New York a lot more than I used to be. So that can be difficult with small children and all the mom guilt around that. Yeah. And so that's been a little bit of a challenge. Um, but we're navigating it, and it's good.

[A]

What are you most excited about when you walk into work these days?

[C]

I'm really excited about the house I'm building. That's been really fun. I'm writing. I launched a substack called Side Note that I'm finding very cathartic, and it's a whole new way. I really. I love things like podcasts and substacks and panels and anything where I can connect with people. And talk about design and help younger designers navigate. That's really fun for me. And substack spin a deep dive into that for me. And focusing on my project and my renovation has been a way to explain a process to an audience in a more formulaic way and in a deeper dive. You know, podcast is great, but it's an hour, and then a panel is great, but it's an hour. So this is a cool way to explore it in a deeper way.

[A]

Has this living through your own project, renovation at sort of this phase of your career change the way you look at your process for your clients?

[C]

It's actually just forced me to do the process and so. Which has actually been really successful and fun. And so I think more than changing, it's, like, exciting to live the process and see if there's anything we need to change as the client, which so far there hasn't been. I really trust the process, and I've realized, wow, I have a really strong team, and this is, like, a thing that's happening outside of me, which is so cool.

[A]

That's incredible. I think that's the perfect segue. Are you ready to give some advice today?

[C]

Yes, always.

[A]

This week, we are fielding a question from a designer with a complicated question about managing a team, which is how do you measure employee success in a subjective field like design? I was wondering, you know, as your team grows and you are really cementing metrics in place, did you get to a place where you felt like you needed to find a way to measure someone's sort of success aesthetically?

[C]

Yes. On the front end, we. It's a pretty rigorous hiring process here. Like, people talk about it once they get hired. Like, oh, my God, I had four interviews or five interviews, you know, and went through five people. And I used to go off the cuff. I used to, like, see someone and be like, oh, I like their outfit. You're hired.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that didn't not work ever. It did work sometimes, but now we have, like, a really, like I said, rigorous process. And I think that that helps a lot. That because it provides an opportunity on the front end to ask a lot of questions, to talk to people. We do this thing called 16 personalities, which is, like, based on a Myers Briggs, but It's like a CliffsNotes version for the old people in the room, if you know what that means. So we hire in teams, and depending on what the hire is, if it's a project manager, certain personality types are better for that. Or if it's a designer, certain personalities are better for that, or if we're hiring into a team and they already have two personalities, and then we're interested in one and we see, oh, God, these aren't really going to mesh. Like, they're not filling the holes. You know, it's not complimentary. Then it's probably not going to work. So it's not the only way. We rely on things. We rely on gut instinct. We rely on the way that they present themselves in interviews. We rely on references. You know, we rely on a lot of different things. And then that's the culmination of the hire.

[A]

Can you walk me through that entire hiring process? And I would say it's maybe specifically for a designer coming into your team.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I want to caveat this with. I'm not as in the weeds as I used to be, so. But I'll do my best to explain generally what we do. We cast a wide net and typically use different. Different mediums to look for new talent. So as simple as Instagram to LinkedIn to business of home, you know, whatever.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen you hired on the job board.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And then we have someone in our office who goes through the resumes and has an understanding and a criteria that's set up for them that they're looking for. You know, they finished design school. Likely they have had three years of experience, if that's what we're looking for, you know, whatever it is. So there's a lot that gets weeded out right there. And then the people are left. Right now there's 40 people left. And then we look at maybe other firms they've worked for. If it's a higher level, do we feel that the firm's aesthetic is aligned with ours? Like, that's easy, right? That feels like that'd be simple. Okay. They're coming from this firm that's similar to ours or worked with a similar clientele. And so that's going to be simple. Like, they're definitely moving over, or did they go to a program that we've had great success with? Like, certain programs we feel like are really strong. And we've had multiple employees that have gone through these programs, and we know that's really successful. I love college athletes because they're very disciplined. And so, you know, I look at that. So there's a lot of different things that we'll look at. Ultimately, let's say we find 10 or 8 or something like this. You know, you're not trying to talk to a million people. It's too difficult. And then we start with the first round of interviews, and we typically will stack it. Like, there's always. Like, the director of ops is always going to talk to people. Usually me or Matt will be the last interview. And then there's. Depending on what team they're going on to, likely two people from the team will talk to them. So it's usually about four people. And we have interview questions that I got through a professional coach, and we use those interview questions, and they're interesting questions. They're not your typical questions. I mean, some are, but some are a little more esoteric.

[A]

What's a weird one? Or what's a more out there question that maybe isn't normal in the industry?

[C]

Okay, so interview questions that maybe aren't as obvious are things like, tell me about a decision where there were no clearly right answers and how did you evaluate the options? Or something like, describe a time you felt emotionally charged in a disagreement at work. What did you do in the moment?

[A]

You're really trying to figure out how this person is going to show up every day.

[C]

Yeah, like, I'm trying to think about it. Tell me about a time you strongly believe something and later changed your view. Listen for defensiveness or rationalization. I don't really change my mind or cur. Curiosity, learning and humility. So she sort of broke it into like, changing your mind, conflicting feedback, rules versus judgment. And there's like, larger things you're looking for within the question. Stress triggers, that type of thing.

[A]

Interesting how. What are you listening for most in that final interview?

[C]

In the final interview, I'm listening for culture Fit. I've found that an employee can be amazing in every way, but if they're not aligned with our company culture, it will ultimately be a failure. And I believe deeply in that. And so people can't just be good on paper. And it isn't necessarily that they aren't amazing at what they do. It's that they just aren't going to thrive here in this environment. They need a more structured environment, maybe, or they need less of a personal environment. We're very personal here. Like, it's very warm and there's a lot of socialization. And some people don't like that. And then they're not going to work here. Like, that's just not going to be good for them. It has nothing to do with their talent or how strong of an employee they would be. So I ultimately am looking for that because it's very nuance y.

[A]

Is there a moment when you're hiring for a designer where you are sort of doing an aesthetic stress test to see if this person will fold comfortably into the work that your firm is known for.

[C]

And what does that look like specifically? If we're hiring for a designer, we'll often do have them do some work. Like, we might ask them to put together a board, or I'll talk to them about their influences and what artists they love or fashion designer they love or what, what they read, what they listen to, you know, that sort of thing. I'll ask them about travel. So I'm kind of looking to see if they are, like, deeply artistic. And we're not generally looking for, like, derivative design. So we're not interested in someone who just, like, loves Pinterest and loves Instagram. We want someone who's more, like, steeped in it.

[A]

Right. They're going to the right museums. They're going places where they can, like, primary sources, basically out in the world.

[C]

Yeah. And that they have a passion for design is what we're looking for. Outside of just, like, it's all so pretty. Right. Totally. You know, so I'm also kind of gut checking on that.

[A]

Yeah. Have you had someone in the firm before who ended up just being, you know, like, this designer experienced in this question. Just an aesthetic mismatch?

[C]

Yeah, I think probably every designer has would be my guess.

[A]

How do you navigate through that and what kind of resolution did you ultimately come to?

[C]

I mean, there's been a few times, and it doesn't always result in the same solution. There have been moments where I realize we're not aesthetically aligned. There's kind of no way we're going to get there. But they have, like, really, like, other amazing attributes. And so there have been. I have successfully redirected employees to other types of work within our firm. And it has been so unbelievably successful because the employee is really strong.

[A]

Okay, what would that look like? What's an example of that?

[C]

Like, you take someone from a design space and you move them into a project management space. Or you take someone, like, I had someone who was doing admin work for me and moved her into a marketing space.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And, like, it's funny because she's brilliant, but she wasn't necessarily great at admin work. Okay. Yeah. But she was amazing and continues to be. I'm like, laughing. Cause I'm looking at her in the marketing capacity and now has been, like, running marketing for years. And she never wanted to be an admin. I mean, it's a little bit different. Once she was, like, trying to slide in. To slide in. So I saw that she was industrious also. So you can see things in people that maybe they don't even see in themselves and have conversations like, wait, I think you're actually really good at this other thing. Instead of saying, like, you're very terrible at design. And it turns out because they're not, it's just not your aesthetic. It doesn't even mean they're terrible at design. It just means they can't get to where you need them to be in the way that you like things to be designed. And you know what I've noticed? You're amazing with budgets, you're amazing with timeline. You're amazing at leading a team, you know, and you don't really have that opportunity as a designer, you know, and I feel like you would really thrive here. I mean, I've found that most people just want to thrive. We're all just here to work, you know, and everyone would rather be home. So if you can find someone success, then they feel so confident and excited. We, we've never had someone come back and be like, wait, I missed design.

[A]

Are there moments where you haven't been able to reroute someone where you just say, you know, you're off over here doing this design that is great, but not great for us? What do those conversations look like?

[C]

I've only been unsuccessful in it when they're not really a strong employee.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Then it's like, okay, well, you're not, you're not producing the work I need. You're also late all the time. You also can't get your projects, like, moving. You also do, you know, and so it's like you're just like, generally not performing.

[A]

Hey, designers, I'm back to tell you about another exciting introduction from Four Hands this spring. The brand's first line of lighting with Amber Lewis. This collaboration builds on the strength of the designer's wildly successful furniture collection, with four hands adding 46 floor lamps, table lamps, sconces, and more to the assortment. One of the things I love most about Amber's partnership with the Four Hands creative team is what a thoughtful approach approach they take to new pieces. And this lighting is no exception. You'll find an elevated mix of materials and finishes, including smoked glass, naturally finished brass, and acid washed metal. You'll also find nuanced nods to Spanish and Greek designs, as well as a medley of textures and forms inspired by natural materials. It's going to be a beautiful addition to your clients homes. And you can discover the benefits of shopping with Four Hands and start sourcing for your next project at four hands.com/tradetales. For someone like this question asker who says, you know, here's a person who is like, well, like, you know, coming to work on time, but the work just isn't right. What would you suggest in that scenario?

[C]

But I think he's seeing it wrong because. Okay, being well liked at work is, first of all, like, not really a thing. Like, that's great, but that's not really a thing. Like, you should be well liked. Like, you should just be like a person who people like. That's not, like, good job. Yeah.

[A]

You know, that's fair.

[C]

Like, you.

[A]

That's the. That's table stakes. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

That just feels like. Yeah, be nice. Okay. Anyway, if he's not listening to the briefs and he's not listening to the client, is he doing a good job? Because that's feeling like that's part of the job. That's part of being a details person. That's part of hearing people. That's part of. So I would argue that this person isn't doing a great job.

[A]

What does a performance review look like when you're thinking about sort of assessing the designers on your team? Is it, you know, are you tying their success to things like translating a brief? What are some of the metrics you use?

[C]

We have. We set up goals in the beginning of the year, and then we meet halfway through the year to see how we're tracking on those goals. And then we're able to see by the end of the year how they did on those goals. And those things are used for raises and promotions and things like that. So the employee feels empowered to set up their own goals, work with their manager to establish those goals. And I think it's difficult to understand how someone's doing if you don't have anything that you're like, noting, which I think this person said. So by giving goals, there's something tangible.

[A]

What are the most important qualities that you want the designers on your team to be evaluated for?

[C]

A combination of, are they moving their projects along? Are their projects making money? So are they paying attention to their use of time, and are they paying attention to the process? You know, we've laid out this amazing process for designers. So are they following the process? We're looking at new business and networking. We're looking at how much of their work is photographable.

[A]

Ooh, that's a good one.

[C]

Yeah. So, like, are they producing work that our marketing team is excited by? So are they being passionate about their design. And are they able to lead the client versus the client lead us? Because the projects we don't end up photographing are sometimes client led and they go off the rails. Were looking at how their team is doing as a whole and probably in comparison to other teams. Oh, client engagement. So are we getting feedback? We often will get feedback from clients. Mostly positive.

[A]

About, like, I loved working with so and so. Exactly. Does that give sort of enough of a framework to really nurture designers in the right direction?

[C]

I think so. Design is subjective. It's hard to give goals. You know, marketing's easier to give goals. You say, all right, we have 120,000 followers on Instagram. By next year, I want to be at 240. I always. Large goals. It's. They hate it. Maybe I give 20,000. They're like, no, thank you. We'll do 150. Right, right.

[A]

There's a negotiation there.

[C]

I'm like, okay, whatever. Learn to manifest, you know, or in this case, like get five collaborations. You know, it's a bit. It's not easier to achieve the goals. It's easier to set up the metrics. Whereas, you know, with design, it's a little more subjective. But the truth is, is like design and project management, they go hand in hand. And the way our teams are sorted, not entirely, but many of the teams are a singer, designer, a project manager who work alongside each other. The project manager typically leads the team, but they are really work together and then there's someone support. There's one team where it's set up a bit differently because the senior designer, who was recently promoted to an associate director level, she's a bit of a hybrid where she weirdly has one of those brains that can be both creative and a type. Yeah. But that's rare. And her entire team is sort of this way, so it works. But anyway, so with the designer, we're able to give a little bit of those more brass tacks, metrics.

[A]

Also, what's the most effective part, when you think about the hiring and retention process for you of nurturing talent that does align with your design aesthetic and what you want your firm to be putting out in the world?

[C]

I mean, frankly, if you're doing your work on the front end and you're spending the time to interview these people, all of that should get sorted on the front end. You should sort of know if this person is aesthetically aligned. Don't bring someone in because you think they have potential. I mean, the only way you should be bringing in potential is at an entry level position.

[A]

How closely aligned to your aesthetic then are you expecting someone coming into the firm to be? How much of style and taste and sort of a firm's expectation is teachable? And, you know, I think one of the things this question asker said was that this employee sort of thinks that, you know, challenging the principal to kind of expand their look a little bit is a plus. You know, is that a plus?

[C]

So we're a bit different in our firm in that I don't think we have a specific look. And I enjoy stretching and working in different mediums. What I look for in talent is, are you talented in the way you produce work? I don't need them to be aligned. In fact, I don't necessarily want that. And I also don't think that's achievable unless you have a formula, a formulaic look. So each designer has a bit of their own look. Like one of my designers is a bit more traditional. I would say layered, British traditional can do, like, for lack of, better explanation, more Upper east side.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And then I'll have another client, another designer who's a bit more downtown and moodier and darker and more modern, less layered, organic. Right. And they're more like that and then a bunch of designers in between. But the point is, is like, I love that because we get different projects and one wants a more Upper east side look and one wants a more downtown look, or one wants a more contemporary look. And. And we love to do that. And also, I believe that I'm very inspired by all good work. And sometimes I can't go as far on something, but like, one of my designers can, it's more natural to them and so they help me get there. Someone said to me a long time ago, and it was a really magical moment, it was an architect who said, hire people better than you. And I really took that to heart. And I see that in my designers sometimes that they are better than me in certain ways and in certain types of design. And that helps to move the design along. So where I might get stuck, they're a bit naturally better at this certain aesthetic, and it helps us move toward the goal. So I'm not looking for people. I'm not saying this is my look. And if you can't do this look, it's not going to work here. I'm not looking for that. I'm looking for people who have their own interpretation of my work and it will seamlessly work inside of my work, but they will have put their own Spin on it. And that's exciting to me.

[A]

How do you define your role as an editor then? Because I know this question asker is saying I'm having to redo work because it's so far afield from what is acceptable for our firm or our clients. But you're just sort of fine tuning to find that common thread when you review your team's work, right?

[C]

Because I trust my team, and my team brings me really good work. So sometimes in the beginning and when I'm first starting to work with someone, I say pretty harsh things to them. Like, I say, I'm just gonna let you know that I might hate every single thing you put in front of me for the first three months. And that's okay, and that's to be expected. But you're here for a reason. And I know that you can get to where we're going, but you need to learn who I am and what I like. I'm just not someone who sugarcoats things. I'm not gonna do the sandwich that people always do. Like, loved it, loved it. But here's the thing.

[A]

But I don't love it.

[C]

I don't love it. I love you and I think you're crazy talented, but this isn't what we're doing. So there is sometimes some of that. And I. I let. I set people up for success by saying, like, you got. You kind of need to expect that. We call it boot camp here. It's like the very beginning.

[A]

I love that you've sort of normalized that as part of the process. That there is.

[C]

Oh, totally.

[A]

There is a learning curve to get to where you will be successful here.

[C]

And that first of all, yes. And I firmly believe in this culture, we do not normalize failure enough and we don't normalize growth enough. So I am someone who it can be very hard to work for because I'm so direct. And it's because I feel that failing and growth are normal and part of the process. And so when I say to someone, I hate this, I'm like, kind of like, but that's cool because, like, you this the first iteration. Like, I don't have to love it right now. In fact, isn't it kind of cool that I don't? Because we can do better than this. Like, we can start here, but, like, this isn't where we end. And then by the time we get to where we're going, you're gonna be so proud of it. Because, like, there was that tension and there was that iteration. So I look for people who have a growth mindset and get excited by that, and don't they take things too personally? Because I try not to.

[A]

How long is that Runway? Is there a point, though, where if someone, you know, a year in is still showing you things where your first reaction is, I hate that. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it time to.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, what is sort of the tipping point where you're like, this is. The on ramp has ended. You need to, like, merge in.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I think if this is going on past a few months, like, in a really serious way, not like, oh, I don't like this, but, like, I usually like everything you show me, then it's probably a bad fit. You probably did something wrong on the front end.

[A]

Final thought. You know, when you think about this question asker, you know, really trying to put parameters around hiring creatives and, you know, finding that good fit, what's the most important thing you would tell them to reroute now?

[C]

Have a more rigorous hiring process, like, use all these different tools. Trust your gut. At the end of the day, you have to learn to trust your gut, because it's always there to help you. But I think just like, having a big toolbox and also having people around you that you trust, you know, I think maybe, like, the designer didn't do a good job at hiring or hasn't done a good job training. Like, I think there's also a lot of accountability. I had to learn that about myself, and that was one of the hardest things I've put myself through, which is like, 3, 360. Is that what they're called? Reviews?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Did you. You just did it to yourself?

[C]

Oh, my God. I did it to myself for two years, the way that I wanted to be institutionalized after I read those things, Like, I was like, oh, my God, I'm a literal horrible boss. Like, I am terrible at life.

[A]

Wait, so you had someone come in and evaluate you?

[C]

No, I had my employees evaluate me anonymously. Two times. Two different years. The first time, my husband looked at me and said, I think you need to. Are you ready, Prepared to read this? Are you in a good headspace? I then went into a funk for six weeks. Okay, my point is, is in order to be a good employee employer, you have to be willing to look at yourself and be accountable for the parts that you're playing in, their inability to perform right. And once you sort through that, like, I actually now think I'm an amazing boss, I will say that this is the first time I can probably say that. Probably, like, maybe, like, this year, maybe last year. And it's because I took a really hard look at myself. I allowed people to evaluate me. That was horrible. I accepted it as truth. I didn't make excuses for myself. I wasn't like, no, I mean, listen, there's always both things, right? Right.

[A]

There's a reason. And.

[C]

Yeah. And an employee can just be kind of, like, annoying, you know, And. And not everybody said I was terrible. Right. Like, most people actually didn't. But the way we understand criticism is, like, all of the accolades go to the side, and the criticisms are the loudest. But I don't mind that, because I needed that to happen to me to become a better boss. Yeah. I didn't like it. It was horrible. I'll never do it again. I thought, two years. I feel like I've paid my penance.

[A]

Wait, was it two years in a row?

[C]

Yes, two years in a row. I finally said, I can't do this again. I don't know if I'll ever get out of bed.

[A]

Before I let you go, I wanted to ask, what is the best piece of advice you've ever received?

[C]

Okay. Well, it dovetails really nicely into what I just said. So aside from the one that said, hire people better than you. And I do think that's really important, because I do think some designers very threatened by talent, and they're like, I'm the boss, and everything has to be me, and I'm the best, and that. I think a firm suffers from that. But I will also leave you with this piece of advice, which is surround yourself with people or seek people out. I, in fact, seek mentors out, people whose lives I admire, and I get them into my orbit, and I ask them as many questions as I can.

[A]

Mm.

[C]

Because I was once told that if you can learn from the people around you, from their mistakes and not make them all yourself, you will have a much easier life. Because if you're like, wait, I like this person, this person I trust, I admire. They told me, if I do X, Y will happen. Like, why wouldn't I believe them? So then don't do X. You know, you've. We've all met the people who won't listen to any advice and just refuse to. And they just continue to, like, mess up and suffer. So, like, don't be that person.

[A]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone listening with a question of your own. I'd love for you to ask us anything. Don't worry. We'll keep it anonymous. Please start the conversation by sending me an [e-mail] if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. And if you're looking for even more great business advice, head on over to businessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Caitlin Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you here next week.