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Trade Tales
Caroline Gidiere on setting her rates for the clients she wants
00:50:45
Caroline Gidiere on what it took to secure her first workroom relationship, how she’s preparing for the launch of her new book, and how to adopt the mindset to charge for the client you want.
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- [00:03]
Caroline Jidier
I've never had a sense of this will get to be too much and I can't manage it. I've had a sense of put me in coach. I'm ready.
- [00:13]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Hi, I'm Kaitlyn Peterson, the editor in chief business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season seven of the show, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories for an idea or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer whose firm's trajectory is a masterclass in growing with intention. She explains how her approach to scaling is hinged from the very beginning on carefully choosing which projects to take and on making sure that her rates reflect the type of clients she she aspires to work with. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is sponsored by Ethan Allen. Imagine you've just landed a major client and they want a big presentation in a very short amount of time. Ethan Allen Trade puts everything designers need right at their fingertips. With Ethan Allen's state of the art floor planner, designers can create realistic floor plans, 3D images and even 3D video previews. And Ethan Allen Concierge can pull together furniture options, accents, samples and then when your client says yes, Ethan Allen handles the ordering and delivery for you as well. Apply for your own trade account today@ethanallen.com Trade this podcast is also sponsored by the Shade Store. The Shade Store offers designers everywhere a simplified resource for handcrafted custom window treatments with a team of dedicated sign consultants available to guide you through the material and product selection process. A vast network of measuring install professionals to ensure the perfect fit in more than 150 showrooms nationwide, the Shade Store offers the bespoke customization of a high end workroom backed by the support of a national organization. Let the Shade Store take care of window treatments for you. Sign up for a trade account today at the shade store.com trade that's the shade store.com trade.
- [02:46]
Caroline Jidier
I lived in a very, very small town in the South Lawrence, Alabama. It wasn't a big city and there weren't decorators. Because of that. My mother was a firm believer that if you had good taste, you didn't need a decorator. She really focused interior furnishings and decorative arts. It was very Important to my mother to have a beautiful house. And she did it all herself. And so seeing that my mind was wired that this is something that you can do, but that it is not a profession. And I was a good student, I made good grades. So my parents encouraged me strongly to pursue a career in law.
- [03:28]
Kaitlyn Peterson
That's Caroline Jidier. She quickly found success in her law career, moving to D.C. to work for the Department of Justice before settling back down in Birmingham and making partner at a firm doing complex corporate and securities litigation. But over time, she started to dream of growing in another direction.
- [03:48]
Caroline Jidier
Around about the time when the pressure was getting to be too much, we were finishing the construction of our home here in Mountain Brook that I had worked on with James Carter. We worked on it together. We went to lunch together every week and considered the details and did the site visits every week. And once it was completed, I have people dropping notes in my mailbox or knocking on the door asking for paint, color and help with their own house or friends saying, hey, could you come over and help us figure out what to do with our dining room?
- [04:22]
Kaitlyn Peterson
While Caroline continued to practice law, she began taking on small design projects for friends at no cost. Then she got the push she needed to go all in on a new path.
- [04:34]
Caroline Jidier
I had a good friend who had hung out a shingle and decided to be a decorator and kind of called herself one. And I was telling my husband, like, oh my God, can you even believe that? And he was like, you should do that. That is the Christmas that he packaged it all up. My business license, my resale certificate, the articles of incorporation, all of it. He put it all together, put it under a tree and said, when I opened it, it's time.
- [05:00]
Kaitlyn Peterson
With her Christmas gift in hand, Caroline began to wind down her law career and lined up her first clients. I wanted to talk to her about what it took to secure her first workroom relationship, how she's preparing for the launch of her new book, and how to adopt the mindset to charge for the client you want. You know, you said it took about a year from getting that business certificate to really kind of go all in on it. What was that intermediate year like? How are you starting to lay the groundwork for the business you would have later?
- [05:35]
Caroline Jidier
Well, first up, trying on the concept of what am I going to tell people I'm doing? Because I did have a lot of shame and embarrassment because it's kind of a dog eat dog world out there and throw in elbows and, you know, you're only as good as your last Win in the courtroom. And so to be like, and I'm going to start decorating. And it just seemed like, like, what am I going to tell everybody that I'm doing? And so I mainly didn't tell anybody what I was doing, that I was just retiring, that my mother was not in good health, and it was too much pressure, and I needed to step away and take a break from it and focus on my family. Meanwhile, I've, like, got my business license and a couple, you know, like a client, I had some friends who had asked me to do three rooms in their house. And so. And I had that going on the day that I walked out of the office that afternoon. I was going to my friend's, slash, client's house to get started on their project. Then I told people that I was doing this, that I was stepping away, that I was going to do it as a profession, and had some really sweet, generous, and supportive friends who were like, great, we want you to do these three rooms for us.
- [07:04]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Well, what did that project teach you? Or how did you use that to kind of wrap your arms around what this profession was going to be?
- [07:11]
Caroline Jidier
I knew that I could do it. I knew. I'm like, I'm smart enough, I'm good enough, and dog on it, people will like what I do when I do it, you know, But I just. I. I just have to roll up my sleeves and figure it out. And the same friend, I had a friend and was like, hey, just so excited because in the practice of law, there is a lot of camaraderie and a lot of exchange of information. And I was blindsided by the fact that this isn't always the case in design. And so I was like, hey, can I get the number for your work room? And she said, oh, she's not taking any more clients. I was like, oh, okay. But I was like, well, can I get her number? Because maybe I could talk her into it. She was like, no, she's pretty serious about it. She's not taking. She told me not to give her number to anybody else. And I was, like, sitting there thinking, like, how am I going to get this number? I don't. Like, I can't have this business and not have somebody who can make drapery. I mean, that I can't do. And so it was like, well, I was like, let me just have her know, Just send me her number and I'll see if I can talk her into it or not. And it was a battle of wills. And ultimately, I insisted enough. And I finally Got the number. And she was busy, very busy. And so I was like, look, it's just two pillows. I don't have a timeline. I'm not in a rush. Do you think you could help me out? She was like, well, I could do that. Yeah. And so I took it out there and I went and I got a box full of pastries. Okay. It just showed up. And I was like, hey, I also have this pair of draperies. Like, do you think you could help me with these? And she was like, well, sure, sit down. And literally, for over a year, every time I showed up at the workroom, I had some sweet treat so that they were looking forward to me. I mean, there's a will, there's a way.
- [09:08]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What were those early years of getting the business up and running like for you, you know, with that first job? But also, you know, what were the benchmarks you were hoping to hit as the business grew and evolved?
- [09:21]
Caroline Jidier
Well, I guess I haven't had necessarily benchmarks. I've been lucky in that I'm not having to put food on the table. So the pressure in all of that has been removed so that it could truly be organic. And just to put a pin in that, I'll go back and say what that first job was like was very, very scary. I had a lot of anxiety about the execution, but also there were things like, I remember that, like, the hardest lesson, the best lesson was the first one. When I was hanging drapery. I had measured probably three times, but all on the same side of the window. It was a big, huge window in a brand new house. Went back like three times to measure, just making sure I got it right, but didn't measure the other side. So there was a huge slope. There was like a 3 1/2 inch difference on the other side. So the drapery on one side was literally like blowing in the wind on one side and perfectly kissing the ground on the other. And I was in a panic. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe she, like, the work room's off so bad. And the drapery hanger was like, oh, no, it's three and a half inches longer on this side. Did you not measure on this side? And I'm like, what? No, I did not. I did not. And I called her from the site and said, oh, my gosh, what do we do? Do I need to buy more fabric? She was like, oh, no, just run them out here. I can hem them. I'll. I'll fix them. I can have them back to you in a week. And that's when I was like, oh, okay, all right, you know, there's a solution. We can get things worked out. And so they were, you know, took them down, told the client, hey, the measurements are off. Let me get these back to you next week.
- [11:15]
Kaitlyn Peterson
How far into that kind of that first job did you start to say, okay, I'm ready to take on more jobs, more clients. What's next for me?
- [11:23]
Caroline Jidier
Day two. I mean, I was, I've been ready, I've been sitting on go from the get go and ready to scale up. You know, I guess I just had this sense, particularly practicing law with these huge cases that you had to manage with a room full of documents where you had to read every one of them and get an outline and figure out how each document was going to come into evidence. I've never had a sense of this will get to be too much and I can't manage it. I've had a sense of, put me in coach, I'm ready, I can do this. Like, you just point me in the right direction. You give me, give me the project, give me the place, I'm ready for it. But having the privilege and the luxury to not be the breadwinner of the family in that moment, I have said and I tell the people that I work with, I am doing this for joy and for love. I want this to be enjoyable for us and for the clients. And so we're going to pass on a lot of work. If I get a red flag or they seem like they're going to be difficult, or this ain't my first rodeo, if I get a couple of red flags, I'm really apt to say, you know what? I think I'm not the right person for this job and move on.
- [12:46]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What had changed for you by the time you made your first hire?
- [12:50]
Caroline Jidier
Well, it was Covid.
- [12:52]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Right. So everything.
- [12:54]
Caroline Jidier
Yes, yes. And, you know, things started picking up more quickly during COVID and, you know, I had a new project that was coming in and we had a tight turnaround. And so I took a bedroom in our house and put two desks in there and put an ad in business of home for an employee and hired someone. Just almost two weeks later we got started and we worked until seven, eight o'clock at night, every night, five days a week and sometimes seven. I mean, just nonstop. So the first year and a half. So it was a year and a half with an employee in my house and then took out a lease that was really, it was in 2021, actually. When I got my first office in the middle of doing Kips Bay in Dallas, and I really felt like I was jumping out of an airplane and not sure if the parachute would open. Doing both of those at the same time.
- [14:00]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What did the employee change for you? What did that kind of make possible?
- [14:05]
Caroline Jidier
Twice the amount of work. I mean, it's just like, just, I'll take this, you take that. And then also having a second opinion when you're. I mean, I pick out everything for all of my clients and collaborate with them, but you have to have people whose opinion that you trust to collaborate with on a daily basis, or at least it's better if you do, to say, is there too much yellow in this pink? Should we do one that's cooler? And look at their face when they're looking at it. And if they squint, you're like, okay, you're right. We do. We need a cooler one. Just it so good to get feedback and to collaborate with someone and when they come in with ideas and honoring that, like, oh, that's a great idea. Let's do that. Or send you images. Have you seen this? And it's just. It's hard to be the only one who has the ideas. And I've been very fortunate that people that I've worked with have a really. Have beautiful taste and sense that I can trust. And so that's nice.
- [15:17]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What was the role that you hired for initially and what does your team look like today?
- [15:22]
Caroline Jidier
I hired an assistant designer. I don't know whether you call it project manager, probably. Now, what the job is, is as project manager, I mean, always toy around with what. What's the accurate description here Again, If I had worked at Bunny Williams firm for, you know, five years, I would be real strong on these details and what everybody does. But she did more of the quoting. And then we would sit down and go over the proposal together and figure out the details. And she would put the dimensions once I did that, and cad. And we would sit down and work that out. Hey, this is going to be too tight over here. And now I have two project managers. We divide up the projects and then we have interns that seasonally that assist in each of the designer project managers with their work and their workload. But they take each take different projects and procure and put together the proposals based on the information that I give them. And then we also have an office manager who does all of the billing and invoicing and bill paying and manages all the details so that we are only focused on Those things.
- [16:43]
Kaitlyn Peterson
When did you add that person to your team?
- [16:45]
Caroline Jidier
So a year ago. And I was trying to do a lot of it, doing all of the billing and invoicing myself. And I really wanted everything to work like clockwork. I want, I know exactly which day of the month I wanted my bills to go out. Because, you know, running a small business, there are a lot of tenants that are the same as far as, you know, invoicing and cash flow and things like that and keeping an eye on running a successful business. And when the workload just gets to be too much, you have to have someone that will allow you to focus on what you're best at. And so our office manager is great now. She manages everything and we just focus on the design.
- [17:33]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Where do clients see you and where do they see your team? How much of that kind of client interaction are you handing off on a day to day basis?
- [17:43]
Caroline Jidier
I make my staff available to my clients when they have questions that they want answered. But it's always me interfacing with the client. For instance, today we were working on some exterior lighting with a client. And you know, when I was in Palm beach last week, the thing was, the contractor says this needs to be picked out this week if we're, you know, we're going to meet certain deadlines. And these are the things that, you know, here's the thing, here's the CAD drawings from the architect and here's the email from the client. And so I look at all of that, do my own research, call the client and say, let's schedule a call. And we sit down and work through it. And this morning I'm on the phone with a client talking about the different options for the different places while my assistant is sitting next to me taking notes. And she, the client and I make a decision. And now the design assistant, the project manager executes. She gets the quotes and the lead times and interfaces with the contractor and then hands off to the office manager who sends the invoice to the client.
- [19:01]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What has that system given you or how has that freed you up to do other things?
- [19:08]
Caroline Jidier
It's incredible freedom. And I tell them all the time, I thank them. I'm so appreciative to get to the point where I can focus on what I think is my highest and best use. They're choosing me because they like what I do. They've seen my work and they like that I have had clients. And in fact, I've had a client that I had to let go that hired me on the recommendation of someone else had not seen my work and was going purely off of somebody else's recommendation. And that does not work because they don't know whether or not they trust you or they don't know if it's going to be good and when it works best. They've seen your work, they're captivated by it, and they want something that is of the caliber of the things that they've seen you do in the past. And they would be disappointed if you were to give them to hand off the project completely to someone else who's now making the decisions. And so I want to be free to call up the client and say, here's what I'm thinking. Here's why I'm thinking we should do these things and be the one to make the decisions. I would be on my back foot if I was having a conversation with a client and someone else had selected all of these things. I wouldn't even know how to try to sell it. You know what I'm saying? I mean, just so I have to be the one staring at it on a board and thinking, oh, we need a little green in here. Ooh, what if we pulled in this little sell it on green? And, like, where can we use that? So if you hire me, I'm the one who's making all the decisions, and I love that. And that's why I'm doing this, because I just. I used to do it for free. I just love doing it. And I'm working with people whose opinions I trust, who check me and say, do you think that's, you know, it seems a little much or not enough or what have you. And also who are smart enough to be able to process all of the. The procurement and manage time management, tracking, expediting, keeping everything together with all the dimensions and working with the work rooms and everything to execute on my sketches and my drawings of how I want the drapery to look like and how I want the chairs upholstered.
- [21:36]
Kaitlyn Peterson
We're taking a quick break to remind you that it's not too late to apply to Ethan Allen's trade program. Trade members gain access to Ethan Allen's floor planner for creating gorgeous presentations that will stop your clients in their tracks, including floor plans, 3D images, and even 3D video previews of their proposed projects. An Ethan Allen concierge can recommend furniture frames, pull together samples, and help independent designers create presentations that will truly wow your clients. Put the tools of Ethan Allen trade to work for you. Apply today@ethanallen.com that's ethanallen.com trade. You know, you mentioned that you used to do this for free. And so I want to talk a little bit about pivoting to charging to do this work. How did you approach that in the beginning? And how has your thinking about billing for your firm's work evolved?
- [22:37]
Caroline Jidier
Well, I've kind of been somewhat unapologetic because it's a second career, and you.
- [22:44]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Came from, I would imagine, a deeply entrenched history of billable hours. Unapologetic billable hours.
- [22:51]
Caroline Jidier
That's right. That's right. And so I also have believed that I'll say this. I was having my conversation with my now dearly departed mother many moons ago when there was a potential of a client working with a particular client, and she said, you don't need to charge too little. First of all, it's going to be a lot of work. Second of all, this client doesn't want a bargain. If you're a bargain, she won't hire you. And that is to say that you have to price yourself for the client that you want.
- [23:34]
Kaitlyn Peterson
How did that change your mindset?
- [23:36]
Caroline Jidier
Well, you do have to be willing to sit there and not get the project because you're too expensive, particularly in a small town. But I'm not here to argue with someone over the cost. If you want to argue about it, then we. I'm probably not the best person for you. And I also have friends in the industry who have been generous, very generous and kind to give me information on what I should be charging. There's the other thing.
- [24:10]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What did getting that information change about the way you charged?
- [24:14]
Caroline Jidier
Well, I didn't realize that people were charging when I first got started that people charged a markup plus either an hourly or a design fee. I thought you just charged the markup and that was it.
- [24:30]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Oh. And then I was like, where's the money in this?
- [24:34]
Caroline Jidier
Yes, exactly. And maybe that's why my friends took pity on me and gave me the information and gave me a hand up and said, no, no, no. Here's how you do it. And I've never had a moment where I've had a question, even when I have issues with a client or what have you, that I couldn't pick up the phone and call one or the other of them and say, has this ever happened and how do I handle it?
- [24:59]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What does your billing structure look like today now that it's not just markup only?
- [25:05]
Caroline Jidier
Well, it depends on the project. For instance, we have a client that we've done a lot of work for several Projects right now, it's something that is very small that they want our help with. And once we start working with a client and we love them, it doesn't make any difference how big or small it is. So this is a markup plus hourly. Because there's just not enough dollars involved in it to charge a design fee, if that makes any. It's just easier. We just charge by the hour. So smaller things. We charge by the hour. Project based. We charge a percentage of the project budget. Yes. And a flat fee.
- [25:46]
Kaitlyn Peterson
When did you start thinking about doing it that way?
- [25:49]
Caroline Jidier
I guess when I learned from. From both of them. One does it one way and one does the other. And my hesitancy and my leaning was towards the flat fee. Having billed hours.
- [26:01]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Yeah.
- [26:02]
Caroline Jidier
And. And my hesitancy on that is. And I'm confident it's a loss leader. And I also feel like the clients think like, oh my gosh, that's. That's enormous. But when you spread it out over the years and you think about it like if you were paying a monthly hourly fee, it's a lot less. And it's usually, I imagine that we lose money on it if we were billing by the hour. But here's what I don't want and the reason that I do a percentage on a. On a project that is because when. Often when we need to spend the most hours is when you have monthly billing fatigue and you don't want to pay for it. And so when we need to get in there and finish out. For me to be able to walk away from a project and feel like we did the best is not when.
- [26:56]
Kaitlyn Peterson
They want to green light a ton of time. Probably.
- [26:59]
Caroline Jidier
Exactly. And also when they don't want to see you showing up with three people from your office. You know what I'm saying? Like. But there are times when you need all hands on deck. Let's go in. Let's get this done. And we need everybody. And I don't want to have to justify or defend or what have you. So it gives me a lot more autonomy of how to finish out a project.
- [27:22]
Kaitlyn Peterson
I love that. How do you charge that percentage? Like, what does that bill actually look like? And when does a client get.
- [27:30]
Caroline Jidier
Comes at the beginning. We agree in the contract and it is divided up. Normally I front end load it over the first six months of the project. I have keyed it to deliverables, but then sometimes that is a gray area. I think it's a lot easier if everything's just very black and white for everybody. Of course you have to have a lot of trust from your client because it's a lot. It's very big dollars. But I haven't had issues so far, and we take our job very seriously. Particularly that's, again, the attorney and me being. Being a trustee essentially, for the client's funds and, you know, safeguarding those funds and being a fiduciary on their behalf. It's our obligation to manage their funds just as if we were like a trust officer and holding ourselves to that standard.
- [28:35]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Does that mean that after those. Maybe after those first six months, the client is, except for the markup, done paying your firm, and now you could work together for three years on this project and they aren't seeing another bill from your office except for, like, cost of goods plus a percentage.
- [28:54]
Caroline Jidier
Correct.
- [28:55]
Kaitlyn Peterson
How does that change the client relationship when money is just sort of done, taken care of, off the table?
- [29:02]
Caroline Jidier
Yeah. I mean, and here's the thing, Caitlin. I've got to have it that way. And I also have to have a straight markup. It's like, it's in my contract. And I tell them, let's have the hard conversations up front when we really don't know each other and we can be really frank about it.
- [29:18]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Right.
- [29:19]
Caroline Jidier
And I cannot play the game of a. If you're going to try to find this someplace else and. And get it for less, I don't have time for that. I can't play the game of how much I'm actually paying for this. I mean, I'm. I want to be able to send you a link for this fixture where it shows you exactly what the. Either the, you know, the retail or the net. Either one. Whichever one I sent. Send you. Because normally with a, you know, with a 30% markup, you're ordinarily less than retail. If not, you're just a little bit over. And the only places that you aren't are in big box stores. And we really don't shop there. And when we do, we are trying to find something that's a budget for the client, and we're doing them a service of trying to find something that's a lot less expensive. But we're using our judgment to find the right thing, the right dims, the right finishes, and we're managing the delivery as part of the project and all that kind of stuff. And usually the clients are. Are happy for that. But a lot of times people are like, oh, my God, I can't believe you're going to sell that. You could sell this for, like, 10 times whatever it's just straight, straight billing. If I can find a budget of a deal for my client, I'm happy to do it. Because we're always trying to find the balance between the higher end, nicer things. Those things always come along. You don't have to worry about something.
- [30:51]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Falling in love with something expensive.
- [30:53]
Caroline Jidier
Yes, exactly. So when we can find things that are fabulous in a great deal, I'm not trying to profit from that. I'm thinking to myself, I've got some, you know, I've got some leeway in the bank. Maybe that'll give us some space for the whatever unknown that comes along, whether, you know, it's a shipping bill that was more than we anticipated or whatever, you know, so, so it just makes it easier, it keeps it looser. It makes it where we can just truly collaborate. I don't want to have tough conversations later about money. I don't. And then I will say also what, what I do have on the backside is a true up to actual cost. So we say the, let's say we say the budget is X. And then the client comes in and says, okay, but also we've decided we want to do patio furniture. We need to add that on. Oh, also, can we do the pool house in the pool house bath? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, it grows. And so we quarterly thereafter true up the design fee to actual costs.
- [32:04]
Kaitlyn Peterson
How do you handle those closing costs, the shipping, the installation, the punch list, stuff that just can feel like a bunch of little bills all at the end.
- [32:14]
Caroline Jidier
Where we are right now is we get an estimate for everything on the front side, including shipping, and we estimate what, what the taxes will be. Because I want you to have a really good idea of what we're talking about here because, you know, I, I think we all kind of want to know that. And then we give a range of, you know, that's about a 15% range on that high and low to give everybody a little space. But then when they come in, as we invoice, we indicate on the invoicing, you know, against the client's funds when something is over what we anticipated and then it'll show on the bill. So let's say we anticipate it would be 550 and it comes in 625. If that's the only thing that month you'll have a bill. There'll be an invoice against the funds available. Also. I think that's important, important to shift the risk of loss right to the client. Now they own it. We don't And. But also for their accounting for their insurance purposes, but then they'll have a bill for like, $75. So we try to do that as we go along as things are coming in.
- [33:35]
Kaitlyn Peterson
You are currently juggling quite a bit with a space coming up in Kips Bay, Palm Beach. Can you tell me a little bit about how that's going? This is your second time doing it. What made you say yes again? And how you've had to adapt a little bit to make room for that kind of concentrated output?
- [33:59]
Caroline Jidier
I've wanted to do it again in Palm beach because I see. And I did Dallas first. And I see this as my demographic, in my market as a colorful, more traditional approach to design. You know, if they had one in Minnesota, I would probably, you know, or California or Oregon, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be as interested. I feel like this is more kind of like in my wheelhouse, the. The. The two of these. So I have always had my eyes on Palm beach, and I decided to do it this time because it coincides with the launch of my book. And I felt like it would be a good launch pad because there's some good press that comes out of it. There's some buzz. And I had already started working with. I was on a panel last week in Palm beach, and I had started working with Casabranca to design a chair of theirs with their fabrics for the panel. And so I had the idea to pitch them to turn that into an entire room. And so I think the name of the game with Kips Bay is using the sponsors or. Or finding sponsors, because it is so expensive. And I got a lucky draw this time. I got a sitting room off the master bedroom, which is right in my wheelhouse again. And I mean, that's just. I can. I could do that blindfolded, two arms tied behind my back. You know, I can. I can do this in my sleep.
- [35:54]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What space would you not have wanted?
- [35:55]
Caroline Jidier
Anything with a bathroom or a kitchen or any kind of hard infrastructure. A patio with a pool or anything like that. When I was in Dallas, I always say, if you want to know where you fall on the design totem pole, sign up for Kips Bay. They'll tell you. Because I got. I got the. A wide space in the hallway in the basement, but with the bathroom. So, like, the worst of all draws. So if you want to know if I've paid my dues, yes, I have paid them in blood. Absolutely. It cost a fortune. It was a basement. A lot of people didn't even come down there. And I had to do a whole bathroom. And so this go round, I have a much older and much wiser than I was three years ago. And it's been so much easier not having a bathroom. It's been a delight working with Casabranca and all of the other show sponsors. I've tried to use every one that has something that I can use, and then that way you get those things for free. And it works the way that it should in that they're invested in your room and promoting it and you're not having to spend as much money on it yourself. It's not as much out of pocket, so they can come in and take pictures of your space and your stuff. And I've delighted in it this time, actually. It's been a lot of fun and I've really enjoyed it, and I'm so proud of what we're doing. I think it's going to be so beautiful. But also, I was talking to Mark Sykes when I did it before, and he said, here's my best advice. Make it beautiful, but keep it simple. Because he was like, you can get in over your head really quickly and so understanding the time limitation, it's a show house. You've got like, eight weeks to turn it around. There's only so much you should be doing.
- [37:53]
Kaitlyn Peterson
We're taking a quick break to remind designers about one of the benefits of the Shade Store's trade trade. Exclusive access to the Shade Store's com program for Roman shades, drapery and cornices. Combined with the Shade Store's extensive collection of more than 1,200 in stock materials, the creative possibilities are virtually endless. Visit theshadestore.comtrade to sign up for a trade account today and learn more. Can you tell me about the book as well? What were you hoping to achieve with the book? And what does having a book mean to you at this phase in your career?
- [38:33]
Caroline Jidier
The book has come a little early, don't you think?
- [38:36]
Kaitlyn Peterson
No.
- [38:38]
Caroline Jidier
Well, I. Do you think so? Okay, let's talk about that. I. I was offered a book deal, and I turned it down at first, Caitlin, because I was like, I'm not ready. I don't think I can do that yet. And then I had a friend who was like, okay, we're going to hang up right now, and you're going to email them back and you're going to say, I thought about it some more and turns out I am ready. Let's go. Because they were like, you're not going to get this opportunity again. And I felt like one day I would want to do a book and it completely blindsided me to have to think of it. And I said I wasn't ready because honestly, I was scared that I wouldn't have enough images to even fill a book. And in fact we started with an organization of the book because I was like, I can't do like 10 full projects. You know, I won't have 10 whole houses. But at the end of the day I ended up with. I have over 200 images that we didn't use. So that's, that's been good. Having a book for me is a great. It's like having a great portfolio that I can show range and what I'm capable of of and, you know, just demonstrating how I can make a home bespoke to individuals. I think it also puts you in a different. I think potential clients view you differently as more established. And so as we've established through this, I've been eager for that. I just love it. So that's what I'm doing. Just like going down this road, it's very organic. I don't have goals. I'm open to whatever comes because honestly, everything has been more in. Down this road has been more than I would have wished for myself. So I'm hesitant to wish because I think my, my dreams are smaller than, you know, what could be. So I try to just stay open and listen and wait for the things to come.
- [40:48]
Kaitlyn Peterson
You know, you talk about the way you describe sort of this lack of images of maybe like the whole house. Does that reflect the jobs you've said yes to? Are you prioritizing the whole house or are you prioritizing interesting work? And what do you choose to photograph as?
- [41:04]
Caroline Jidier
Well, historically now we are more focusing on project based. We've worked ourselves into that because it's harder to take the smaller projects. We have enough returns, smaller projects from our clients who are like, you know, we want to do the laundry room and the guest bedroom and pantry. I'm never going to turn that work down. But there's enough of those little things that we do that we don't. We really have to for it to make sense for us to spend our time. It's just easier to be more project based, which doesn't have to be the whole house, but it has to be significant. Right? And you know, there's just different situations for all of them. A lot of times it is the case, and it's certainly the case in three of these houses that we photographed that they had to come in stages. Just because of the constraints of the life of the client. Like one of them, we've got to get in for the wedding and then after we get finished with the public rooms for the wedding, we'll come back and do these other things. And, and honestly, by the time we got to the photo shoot, like in that moment, it was probably a year and a couple of months before we actually started shooting at anything for the book and, you know, projects had completed and by the time we had spent another year and a half shooting more projects had completed, if that, and more sections of houses had completed and we went back and did a couple of more last minute photo shoots to grab things that had finished. In the meantime, how do you wrap.
- [42:44]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Your hand around some of the costs of photography today?
- [42:50]
Caroline Jidier
Well, it is a lot. It is. And it's not just as I was telling somebody, it's like you're flying in the photographer and the photographer's assistant and you're paying for their airfare and their hotel room and their Starbucks coffee and their, all their meals and you're paying for the photo stylist and the photo stylists, all the flowers and everything and all of their meals and their lodging. And it ain't cheap. But I think I got lucky and then I negotiated a contract for the whole book with my photographer and then I'm lucky enough to live in a town with a lot of very talented photo stylists and one that I had worked with a lot and you know, that I, I feel like, was it good? She does great work and it was a good deal. I've worked with other ones who charge an arm and a leg and aren't half as good, you know what I'm saying? So I got, I felt like I just, I couldn't be more pleased with my team and we enjoyed being around each other and that makes a difference in the work that you're doing. When you, when you delight in each other's presence and you're not annoyed by each other, you know, that makes, at least. I may be speaking out of turn, at least I felt that way about them. I can't say whether they truly felt that way about me. Certainly since I'm paying the bill, we'll probably never know. But I certainly felt like I loved being with both of them and their assistants and. Yeah, and you know, and you have to find someone who you work well with. There are photographers who do beautiful work that I have to move along at a brisk pace. If we spend all day trying to, you know, hold up Black sheets and capture the light. And we only get one room a day. I start getting anxious and salty. Everybody's different. Everybody feel, you know, like it's a very kind of feely, kind of emotional thing when you're photographing your work. So. But yeah, it's not, it's not for the faint of heart, although it is an investment in the business. I'm sitting on all of these images. It's like such a treasure trove that I'll have for years and years to come. The work won't change. It's been captured, it's there. I'll always have those images and I'll have things that I can pull out of my back pocket 10 years from now.
- [45:37]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Will you put some of that stuff on Instagram or how does social media drive your thinking about image capturing?
- [45:44]
Caroline Jidier
I won't put this stuff on social media for at least for a year. I'll have most all of that under embargo until the book has gotten a little stale, if that makes any sense. So you'll have to, you'll have to buy the book to get access to the images. But with Instagram, I think, I don't know, I think with stories and I think the, the standard scroll post of just images of interiors has gotten a little stale. I think we're in this TikTok age of more dynamic, where it's more video clips.
- [46:25]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Have you embraced that?
- [46:27]
Caroline Jidier
Yeah, I mean, I, I haven't done as much TikTok. I would, I really need, you know, like a 25 year old TikTok champion to come intern for me in the summer. And I think it's better when it doesn't all seem totally canned out of a PR firm. I mean, those are nice and they're beautiful and they're a great promotion, like little, you know, little commercials, if you will, for your business. So I do think it's where we are and it's very, it's very important. It drains me. I don't like. It's a very supportive community for design. So it's not, you know, that. But being forward facing, I can only do it for so long and then I have to retreat and go black for several days before I can come back and, you know, engage again. It, because it does, it does pull energy from you for sure.
- [47:30]
Kaitlyn Peterson
What is the one thing when you look back that you wish you had known when you started your firm?
- [47:36]
Caroline Jidier
I think I wish I had known from the get go that everything has a solution. Things can seem like a crisis in the moment. You know, but usually if you take a breath, you step back, you can figure just about anything out and make it work. I mean, there are very few design crises that cannot be solved.
- [48:02]
Kaitlyn Peterson
How do you think about the evolution of your firm moving forward? You know, as we follow your career for the next decade, what do you want the world to see?
- [48:13]
Caroline Jidier
Well, I have been set up and I'm ready to grow. I'm putting the mechanism in place to be able to expand. And just because I think we're ready for that and we can do it.
- [48:32]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Does that mean a bigger team? Does that mean more projects? What does expansion hold for you?
- [48:37]
Caroline Jidier
It means both, and it means whatever. I mean, like, I'm just, like I said, I'm open to what comes next. And like, I wouldn't have said the book and it came and it's cr. So it's like, okay, well, I'm not going to say what it is. Show me. Show me what's next. I'm, I'm excited for what, what it could be.
- [49:00]
Kaitlyn Peterson
How do you define success?
- [49:04]
Caroline Jidier
I define success. Sleeping well at night and being proud of the work that I've done, that's about, I mean, very simply, very simply. If you can sleep well, get in bed and you're not riddled with anxiety. And part of sleeping well is honoring the people around you, family, friends, clients, employees, artisans. And you're able to create work that you're proud of and sleep well at night, I think for me, that actually is successful.
- [49:47]
Kaitlyn Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening, and I hope you'll be back with us next week for the launch of our new show, Ask Us Anything. Where I'll be answering a designer's business question on air with the help of past Trade Tales guests. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@tradetalesusinessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castanega. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again from listening, and I'll see you back here next week.