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Trade Tales
Considering a sabbatical? Chloe Redmond Warner did it—and shares how you can, too [Rebroadcast]
00:56:19
Chloe Redmond Warner on the employee who pushed her to improve the firm’s processes, the lengths she’s go to to determine a client’s aesthetic sensibility, and how taking a sabbatical ultimately helped her discover a new way of working that preserved her time and mental energy.
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- [00:03]
Chloe Redmond Warner
People who dress very well, people who are amazing chefs, people who are perfumers. Everybody has people in their life who, like, vibrate on that level, but it's never been named. And so I was like, oh, I think it's aesthetic intelligence and I'm going to shorthand it aq. And I think it's the secret to having a life that feels good.
- [00:27]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to trafi. As we wrap up the seventh season of the show, we're taking a break this month to dream up even more great stories for you about building a better design business. We heard you loud and clear that the vulnerability of designer guests like Adam Hunter and Alex Kaler totally resonated. These are designers who were ready to step away from the work entirely. Instead, they shifted their systems and processes to recapture their ability to find joy in the work. If you're looking for more of that energy, stick around, because I picked out one of my favorite episodes from the show's archive to share with you today. My conversation last year with Oakland, California based designer Chloe Redmond Warner. We talked about the sabbatical that allowed her to see her firm with fresh eyes and implement the systems needed to preserve her time and mental clarity. We'll be back with an exciting batch of new episodes in two weeks, but for now, enjoy the show. Hey, designers. By now, you've probably heard about Ask Us Anything. It's our new advice show, which airs right here every other Wednesday. In every episode, I'm fielding a business question from an anonymous designer and then tapping a former trade sales guest to offer helpful guidance. We've solved some great dilemmas so far, and now we want to hear from you. What are the questions that are keeping you awake right now? Maybe you're struggling with pushy clients or crappy contractors or toxic employees. Maybe your questions are more philosophical about when to hire or how to get payroll right or how to know if you need a coach. Don't worry, we're going to keep it anonymous. So if you've got a question that you'd like answered, please start the conversation by sending me an email@tradetalesbusinessofhome.com I can't wait to hear from you.
- [02:37]
Chloe Redmond Warner
From a pretty young age. Like, I remember watching Designing Women when I was little and being like, you know what, that seems like a good time. But I think even like young me knew that interior designer was like a little bit not taken seriously and architect was what was taken seriously and I wanted to be taken seriously. And so what I said I wanted was to be an architect. I went to Harvard Architecture school, and I knew at the beginning of architecture school that I was kind of swimming in the wrong pond. I just remember, like, talking about, like, the theory of, like, a room that you could make with sound waves one time, and I was like, oh, my God, like, I'm not in the right place. I just want to make, like, really beautiful spaces that make people feel a certain way.
- [03:27]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Chloe Redmond Warner. She graduated from Harvard in 2005, but the program had taken its toll. Diploma in hand, she was ready to hit refresh on her design dreams.
- [03:40]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I think I just felt like I had been in the trenches and paid more dues than I wanted to. I just felt like I needed a break. And I. I got engaged right at the end of school, and I was so happy about that. And so I was like, oh, I'm just going to, like, get married and do my apartment for me and my husband and think about it. And really there was nothing to think about. I, like, just started it. That was my project. And that got into Domino.
- [04:10]
Caitlin Peterson
The feature was a hit, and soon it netted Chloe the client she needed to get her firm off the ground. Even so, success didn't come immediately.
- [04:21]
Chloe Redmond Warner
It was not fast. I didn't make money for years. I just had very low overhead. I had a fortune cookie that said, like, struggle is the hallmark of progress. And I put it on my stupid bulletin board and I was just like, okay, another year. And I was like, that thing has been up for years. And it was. It was just like many years of doing nice projects but not making very much money. I've always had some support and assistance. So I was paying employees either, like one or two, but, like, not really paying myself. I think I started making money in, like, the teens, but that had been five years of, like, not, which is wild.
- [05:05]
Caitlin Peterson
Since its founding in 2005, Chloe has grown her Oakland based firm, Redmond Aldrich Design, into a thriving operation.
- [05:13]
C
I wanted to talk to her about.
- [05:14]
Caitlin Peterson
The employee who pushed her to improve the firm's processes. The lengths she'll go to to determine a client's aesthetic sensibility, and how taking a sabbatical ultimately helped her discover a new way of working that preserved her time and mental energy.
- [05:32]
C
When did you start to feel like you really hit your stride? You said it was in the teens, but what suddenly felt different?
- [05:39]
Chloe Redmond Warner
So one of my employees came to me and she is just like, listen, I'm about to get poached By Nicole Hollis. I would really prefer to stay here. Oh, yeah. But I need you to lock in. And I want to work on more projects with architects. I want an assistant. And I think she wanted more money. And I was like, look at you and your goals. And I love it. And literally, like, the same day, I just agreed to all of it. I was like, that is terrific. Let's. And so it was very much like she manifested it. I agreed, Loved working with her. And, yeah, we kind of locked in. And then I noticed. I was like, oh, I think good things are happening. And it really was a matter of doing more projects with architects. And I think I had always prided our firm on everybody being able to draft. And I have an architecture background, but the quality of the projects that we work on, where we're not doing the architecture is so much better. We can do a beautiful, lovely kitchen or bedroom, but I've never done a full house. I would never. For myself, I would hire an architect. And so that was a game changer when we started collaborating with the best architects in California, Really.
- [07:12]
C
So you always had somebody in the office helping you. What did that look like in the early days, and how did that start to evolve?
- [07:20]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Well, my first employee was Maria, and she was just incredible. I think she had taste and technical skill and a lovely temperament and was just a great collaborator. And then we. I kind of always recognized the value of, like, some operations expertise. And at the beginning, that felt unnecessary. And then, like, during the. That, like 2008 to probably 2011, it felt unnecessary. But now I would never go back. We have 12 people, and I think a third of our office is ops and finance, and that is just so critical. Ever since Maria, I feel like I look for taste, which is, I don't know, kind of innate. It's my least favorite thing to teach. Temperament, which I don't think you can teach, and then technical skills, which I think you can teach. So the three T's is what we've looked for. And my first hires embodied them all, and I try to get there with everyone.
- [08:40]
C
As you were setting up your business, where did you look to model sort of the systems and the structure when you went out to work with clients?
- [08:51]
Chloe Redmond Warner
That is. That is a hilarious question. I had. No, I really, like, I had had one internship in Boston, and I didn't really have systems. My first employee brought systems from her former employer, where I think she worked for, like, a few years. Like, she was quite young. I was young. We just used, yeah, Maria's system. And like, both of our good judgment. And I think we're both, like, very, like, empathetic and tuned into people and very, like, golden rule oriented. Like, we treat people how we would want to be treated. We provide a ton of, you know, information. So those things have always been important. But I really don't know how other people do it. I never got it. That education.
- [09:48]
C
How has that structure or process evolved? Do you feel like you've landed in a process that you feel kind of rooted in and that won't change?
- [09:58]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yes, and I love it. I sometimes think I really like having a business. I like thinking about systems and process and, like, I love color and pattern and ornament and design. But I think if you thought about that full time, it could get stale. Like, I really enjoy the puzzle of having a business and trying to make that better. I didn't know how much I would like that when I started it.
- [10:30]
C
Did you have a vision for how the firm would grow, or when did that start to crystallize for you?
- [10:36]
Chloe Redmond Warner
It was just the right time. Like, my kids were not babies. I think they were in school. And I was like, I do need to lock in. I do want to lock in.
- [10:46]
C
What did that mean for you? What did you have to change?
- [10:48]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I think it was. I've always had ambition and always have, like, wanted to be taken seriously. I remember when I turned 33, I was talking to my friend, and I was like, the best thing about being 33 is that people take you seriously. Yes.
- [11:06]
C
Oh, my God. That happened to me, too.
- [11:08]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Did it really?
- [11:09]
C
Yes. That was the moment where I feel like people stopped being like, oh, my God, you're so young. And I was like, right. But I'm also good at my job.
- [11:16]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yeah. And I'm a business lady.
- [11:18]
C
So there is something magical about 33. That's really funny.
- [11:23]
Chloe Redmond Warner
But that's always been something that I have liked and wanted. And I, you know, I've gotten into the enneagram recently, and I'm like, do you know? Do you know your enneagram?
- [11:34]
C
I think so, yeah.
- [11:36]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Are you a three?
- [11:37]
C
Yes.
- [11:38]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Oh, my God, I'm a three. So, like, I like a list. I like to achieve. And I think, you know, there's like, a fog of young parenthood. And then once that evaporated a little, I was like, all right, it's go time. Like, let's make some lists. Let's do some stuff. And I put, like, incredible things on my board, and I don't take them off until they get done. I don't put things up Willy nilly. I only put up things that I really want, but there are things that have been on my board for years, and I won't take them down until I get there.
- [12:18]
C
How have you shifted as your team grows?
- [12:21]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I think it's actually the most interesting question because I think people, everyone needs to grow and evolve. And I feel like interior design is very important work, and we are making people's lives, like, very much more interesting and better, and I love it. And like I said, there's never been anything else I wanted to do, but doing the exact same thing. I think you risk repetitive stress, injury, and so in order to have a long career, you have to do some different things. And, like, some of the things on my board involve, like, being creative, but in different ways. So I'm gonna tell you something that I have not told anyone, which is I know I have wanted to do a book forever. Like, I've always aspired to be a designer who has a book. And I sold a book proposal this summer. I'm doing a book.
- [13:23]
C
Oh, my God. Congratulations.
- [13:25]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yeah, I'm so excited. I sold the book to Abrams, and I loved doing the proposal, and that's a way that I see my role evolving. I've never made a book before, and I'm so excited about it, and it is within my firm. Like, it's the book of Rad's work and our strategy for making beautiful atmosphere. But it's not as much like client work. It's, you know, I'm making something lovely for our projects to live in, as opposed to making a lovely house for people to live in.
- [14:05]
C
It's a home for. Home for the portfolio.
- [14:08]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Exactly. And I'm very excited about it. But there's, you know, there's things like that. And, like, I feel like one of the things I love about your podcast is people come on and they're like, oh, I have a product line. And I think that maybe it was a year ago when Beata was on with Dennis, and she was like, you know, I just have been really into my product line because I want fewer, better clients. I didn't want the ability to say no. And I was like, oh, wow. I say yes to everything. I've always wanted new products. And, like, we're doing. I did, like, a fabric and wallpaper line this year, and it's coming out next month. And that never would have been possible, but, like, as people kind of mature and grow and earn and deserve autonomy, it clears the Runway for me to do these other creative things that all are like, within the firm and within the brand, but they're just different. And it feels. It feels great, but it's just been so interesting and the book is huge. I can't believe that that's happening. But also the, like, fabric and wallpaper line, like, I have always wanted that. And within a year, like, we're launching in September.
- [15:25]
C
Okay.
- [15:26]
Chloe Redmond Warner
And that is so special. I designed these fabrics and wallpapers and I never knew how that was going to be able to happen. And all of these things definitely. Like, when I look at the list of, like, lovely things that have happened post sabbatical, I'm like, oh, you didn't do this by yourself. Like, your operations director worked in showrooms for years. She has been incredible. And we did Kips Bay and that was incredible. And one of my senior designers did such a great job on that. And I have a PR person who's gotten us on just very high level stuff all year. But it's so different than how it was before the sabbatical. It's just, like, abundant. And before it was very pinched.
- [16:19]
C
How did that product line come together?
- [16:23]
Chloe Redmond Warner
So, you know, it was just another thing I had always wanted to do. And I was a painter. I like to paint. I know how to paint. And so one of my employees told me that her sister was taking a surface pattern class. And I was like, yeah, I was like, surface pattern. And I took an online surface pattern class, and it was incredible. And there are technical things that you need to do to make a pattern that repeats, and I loved learning it. And then we got invited to do Kips Bay, and I was like, oh, my God, you do not say no to Kips Bay. But if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna, like, make something for it. Make something custom and special. And so I took my favorite pattern and we produced enough to tent this, like, beautiful loggia. And, like, it all just worked and it just felt. I was like, how could this happen?
- [17:20]
C
That space was extraordinary, by the way.
- [17:22]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Oh, my God. Did you go to. Did you go down there? Oh, I wish we would have met. Thank you so much. I loved it.
- [17:29]
C
So the patterns, are you producing and selling them yourself or how are you distributing them now?
- [17:36]
Chloe Redmond Warner
We are self produced. We are printing to order. We use 22 to collaborate with on the production. And they're incredible. They're just a lovely, lovely resource. And the first pattern went so fast and easy. And then after that, I think the people in production were like, oh, we could. This might be better on a different fabric. And we've tweaked and taken our time on the following three patterns, but we are now fully locked, and they're amazing. And we have, like, you know, non woven wallpaper, grass cloth wallpaper. We have a dupioni silk. Like, it's a beautiful little capsule. And yeah, it's all, like, made to order. Oh, except for performance fabric, which is made in Italy, and we are stocking that.
- [18:28]
C
That's awesome.
- [18:29]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yeah, it's all gonna be for sale on our website.
- [18:33]
C
Did the response at Kips Bay this spring change how you completed the rest of the collection?
- [18:41]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Honestly, like, I loved the response and got so much out of being there and meeting people. And, like, I felt like it was really well received. And then I was like, oh, we are gonna get orders and clients. And, like, so far, like, we've gotten one order, actually we've gotten two orders, and one was my dad. I haven't done anything. Like, it's really. It's officially launching, you know, in September, but it didn't change anything. I feel like I'm not super strategic. Like, I am just trying to make things that I love and that people, you know, my peers will like and want to use. But I did feel warmly welcomed by Florida, and that was a good experience.
- [19:29]
C
Do clients still come expecting FaceTime with you and how do you navigate that? How do you. Where do clients see you and then where are they working directly with your team?
- [19:41]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I am very present in the beginning with, like, establishing the kind of look and feel and tone of the atmosphere. I am present at meetings, but I am off of email.
- [19:58]
C
I think that sounds super radical.
- [20:01]
Chloe Redmond Warner
It's so radical. And this is actually, I think that, like, when we did the just, like, pre work, I was like, oh, my. Like, big radical, profound pivot is I, you know, I did a sabbatical last year, and it wasn't until I got back from the sabbatical and just saw how, like, solid the office was and how little everyone missed me, including our clients. And, like, it was really eye opening. And, like, what I expected was, like, people would be like, oh, yay. Phew. We have these hundred things that we've been waiting for you to get back to deal with. And it was not like that at all. It was like, oh, these things are ready, and you just get to stroll in and, like, take all the credit, basically. And I was like, oh, wow, this is. This is wild. You guys have thrived. And at first that was scary. And then I was like, oh, I'm gonna use this bandwidth for good. And I Hired a coach. I, like, became more, like, involved with the forum group. Like, I am more. Yeah. I like, see people in my industry more than I do or used to. And then the big. The big one is I was like, I am no longer responding to email.
- [21:26]
C
Do you just mean, like, client correspondence? Right. Like, all of the, like, chatter, kind of of like a job?
- [21:33]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yeah. And I was, like, being pretty indulgent and, like, I was just frittering away, like, six hours a day crafting emails with, like, you know, perfect inline responses. And when I look back, I'm like, what. What was I doing? Like, I. I don't think it was a great use of my time. And so I said, I'm no longer going to respond to emails. I will be available by phone anytime. I will be available by text anytime. Which was new. I used to be like, oh, that sounds great.
- [22:10]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:11]
Chloe Redmond Warner
No texting. And I will be available in person. So those three things I, like, made room for. And it's just the email that I kind of took off, and it's been great. Like, I enjoy texting with clients. I don't overthink a text from a client, and I don't think they want me to overthink it. And a call that could. Would take 4 to 15 minutes is an email that would take me, you know, 30 minutes to three hours, depending on what it was.
- [22:43]
C
Right.
- [22:44]
Chloe Redmond Warner
You know, and I think I was overestimating how much people wanted from me.
- [22:49]
C
So I want to talk about this sabbatical because I think everyone listening to this will want that.
- [22:55]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yeah.
- [22:57]
C
Yes. Yes. How. How did you decide to do it? How long did you go away for? How did you prepare?
- [23:05]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I decided in kind of a demented way. Like, I was in a very. I was in a very dark place. I was just feeling like, really, I had Covid and it just lingered. I got really paranoid that I was losing my vocabulary because I. I felt like I had brain fog for the first time. And I was like, oh, no, what if I can never speak again? And I had to reach for words, and that was alarming. And I was, like, sick for a month in 2022. And at some point during that, I was like, I am either going to retire, like, I can't do this. And I stayed working the whole time. I was like, on zooms because I was never really sick, but I was miserable. And I was like, oh, God, I have to change. I saw an ambulance and I was like, oh, that would be nice to just be taken away. And that was like a Horrific thought. And I was like, for somebody to really think that who actually has, like, a nice life, there's something wrong upstairs. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to take a sabbatical in 10 months. And we planned it like a military operation. And my husband was very committed to seeing that I did this, and my operations director was very committed. And so even when I was like, better and had my vocabulary back and felt fine again, they still were like, oh, well, it's on the calendar. Let's meet up.
- [24:36]
C
You're going?
- [24:37]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yeah, you're going. And so there were like, three meetings where they're like, yep, you're going, you're going, you're going. And then I. I just did.
- [24:44]
Caitlin Peterson
Did you stay home or where did you go?
- [24:47]
Chloe Redmond Warner
My gosh. So you. As an enneagram. Three will understand. I was like, what do I do? How many.
- [24:52]
C
If I'm not doing something I'm not. I don't like.
- [24:57]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I know. I was like, should I move my family to a ski town and make it work there?
- [25:02]
C
That's a dream.
- [25:05]
Chloe Redmond Warner
And my hairdresser has a beautiful salon. And I was like, what would you do if you had a. A sabbatical? And she was like, not work. And I was like, whoa, what a novel idea. I can't imagine. And I worried that I was going to, like, flip out a little bit. So I. I planned to train for a ski race. I planned a trip to Egypt. And then I was like, oh, I'll take the piano up again, and I will make good dinners and I'll pick my kids up from school and I'll just try to chill. And honestly, it was so much easier than I thought. I was really nervous that I would get itchy and I can fill a day. It turns out I.
- [25:53]
C
There are things.
- [25:54]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yes, there are things. I took, like, an online gardening course that I loved and I took it seriously. And, like, I have notes. I haven't done anything about it, but.
- [26:03]
C
How long were you gone for?
- [26:04]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Like four months.
- [26:06]
C
Did you check work, email?
- [26:08]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Never. Not once. That would have been. And my husband was, like, so strict about that. And that would have ruined it.
- [26:18]
C
Well, I have to say, too, because you worked together already, right? We haven't talked about that yet. But did he.
- [26:23]
Chloe Redmond Warner
No, we did not work together.
- [26:24]
C
Oh, okay. So there. It wasn't like he was coming home from work.
- [26:28]
Chloe Redmond Warner
No. So he.
- [26:29]
C
Yeah. Okay.
- [26:31]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I feel like. So he is a real estate developer and he had just kind of finished an apartment project and then he really made it his beeswax. To make sure that I had a successful sabbatical. And he, I think, was looking at my emails the whole time to kind of make sure things were fine. And I believed him. It was like, you know, if someone from my office was reporting, hey, like end of the day, all your emails are good, I would have, it would have felt like work. But I trusted that if something was like wild, he would have told me. But yeah, there were all of these things that kind of Andrew was exposed to and had interest in bandwidth and kind of started being helpful and supportive and it was like very game changing and helpful.
- [27:26]
C
Is he like full time in the business at this point or what does his role look like today?
- [27:32]
Chloe Redmond Warner
He is not full time. He, you know, he has his real estate project where he is a landlord, he is the primary parent for our two kids, and then he oversees kind of the finance and operations. So we're moving our office, for instance, and he negotiated the lease and he's picking up a lot of complementary skill sets or he has a lot of complimentary skill sets. And that's pretty great.
- [28:16]
C
Were you ready to come back to work when those four months were over?
- [28:19]
Chloe Redmond Warner
No. And that was so scary. My vision was that I would be super refreshed and that didn't happen. I was like, all I need is like a little break and then I will feel renewed instead.
- [28:37]
C
You discovered the joys of retirement?
- [28:39]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yes, I did. I was like, oh, I'm so good at the piano. Why don't I do this? And like, I exercised and had lunch with friends. It was just like, this is nice. And I think because I knew it was temporary, I, you know, I didn't have any guilt about it. I was just like, it was a really nice way to spend a few months. And when the time came, I was like, oh, no, I actually have been very busy and I could use more sleep and more whatever. But I think the real surprise was, you know, I came back and I wasn't refreshed, but then I saw the office and I was like, oh, you don't have to go back to doing things the way that you had been doing them. And so it wasn't that I got a break from doing those things. It was that I got to change and grow. And so I'm no longer tired, but it's because I'm doing things differently.
- [29:47]
C
Ah, that's beautiful. What was the most profound shift in your role?
- [29:52]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I think the email is like wild and profound. And then I hired a coach.
- [30:01]
C
What did you want to work on with the coach?
- [30:03]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I didn't know. I just. And it came out of my trip to Egypt. There were 10 other creative people on that trip, you know, mostly women, two guys. And they were all at kind of different stages, but they all seemed like they had their shit together. And I bet they were all enneagram threes just like achieving every which way differently than I was. And they all made it look much easier and better than I felt like I was making it look. And Barry Benson, the designer, was on that trip. And I have like, you know, loved her from afar for many years and she is better in person than like I could have imagined.
- [30:55]
C
It's like a meet your heroes moment.
- [30:57]
Chloe Redmond Warner
It was a meet your heroes. When I was leaving, my husband dropped me off at the airport and he was like, he was like, have fun. I hope Barry Benson lives up to your expectations. And like, she is just absolutely the best. And so, you know, we were talking about things and we have so many things in common. And I feel like she felt this. She felt similarly to how I was feeling at a point. And she was like, you should speak to my coach, Sarah. And I did, and I do, and I still do. I think Sarah, like signed me up for a six month coach program and at the end I was like, no, we must continue. It's been really. Now that I work with her, there's so many things that I just kind of stopped learning. And I never worked for a company, so I didn't really have an idea of what a leader, how a leader behaves, or how you grow or how you don't take everything super personally. There's so many things I didn't know and I feel like every time we meet I feel more equipped to. It's just been profoundly helpful to me and to me being happy as the creative director of this company. Like, I think when I started I was doing so many things that were reactionary or based in fear. And she's taught me to just be like more optimistic and confident and things are so much easier when I work them with her. It's pretty wild.
- [32:55]
C
That's amazing. Is she like a design industry specific coach or more of like a leadership coach?
- [33:01]
Chloe Redmond Warner
She has a company where she does enterprise coaching solutions for Fortune 500 companies.
- [33:08]
C
Oh, okay.
- [33:09]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I know. But she has a small number of personal clients and I think like, because Barry referred me, she was willing to talk to me and now I just can't imagine not being able to hear her take. And we're just making huge strides. I think something that probably many female business owners would identify is a desire to please and just a people pleasing instinct that will get you very far. But there comes a point where you're like, oh, maybe this is hurting me. And I realized I had absolutely zero boundaries. And we were talking about a client who had like, actively yelled at me on the phone while I was watching my car be broken into from the window of my office. And I was. I know. I was like, oh. And this was like right after I came back from sabbatical and the client was upset with me and it was total nonsense. And my response was, I hear you. That sounds so frustrating. Oh, my goodness, that must be really hard. And I absorbed it all. And my coach was like, how about if we make a boundary that you don't let people be an asshole to you on the phone? And I was like, okay, that can be sure. Like, literally, she had to propose it for me to.
- [34:44]
C
Yeah.
- [34:45]
Chloe Redmond Warner
And my. My instinct is to be like, yeah, let's. Let's settle this. Let's like move through this and make sure that this guy is okay. And I was like, well, I don't know if I can say, like, it doesn't sound like this is a productive line of conversation and maybe we should talk about ways to like, move through the problem and like, be solutions oriented. And she's like, oh, my God, honey, that is like varsity level. You don't have to be there now. All you have to do is pretend it's a bad connection and hang up. I was like, what? She was gonna be okay with that? And I was like, okay, really? I can just like, sorry, I can't hear you. And she was like, absolutely. Because it's your boundary. Cause you won't let people be an asshole to you. And I was like, oh, my God. Okay. And like, it really rattled me because I was like, oh, my God, I can have like a good relationship for years and then somebody can like, turn on me. And it was scary.
- [35:45]
C
That's awful.
- [35:46]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I know. And I think that's the hardest. That's the hardest thing is I think I get attached to the projects themselves and the people and like, when I leave them when it's done and I never get to go back, I, like, have a sense of loss. And I didn't realize that, but I think that was something that was adding to my fatigue is I was like, oh, we just pour it out for these projects and then we have to walk away. And in a way I was like, oh, it's like we're, you know, fostering a pet and then and then it gets adopted. Yeah, and then it gets adopted. And I felt, like, real sadness and real loss when we finish. Instead of, like, a sense of, like, achievement, I would be like, oh, my God, I actually love this house. And now it is theirs. And that is right, because they paid for it. But it was sad.
- [36:55]
C
How do you move through that? How do you shift that sadness to joy?
- [36:58]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Well, I think that being able to put. To photograph my projects is when I feel like they become mine again. And then being able to put them in a book makes it feel like they're mine again. And that's like a surprising little, like, therapeutic twist.
- [37:22]
Caitlin Peterson
Hey, designers. And back with another reminder to send us your business questions for an upcoming episode of Ask Us Anything.
- [37:29]
C
Whether you're struggling with how to get.
- [37:30]
Caitlin Peterson
Clients to spend on art and accessories at the end of a project or looking for the financial strategies that will help you level up, I'd love to help you find some answers. If you've got a question that you'd like us to tackle, please start the conversation by sending me an email@tradetalesusinessofhome.com.
- [37:52]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I.
- [37:52]
C
Was deep in your website preparing for this call, and you have really beautiful language there about helping clients discover what you call their aq. Can you tell me what that means to you and why it's so important to put that sort of at the forefront when you're saying who you are and what your firm does?
- [38:14]
Chloe Redmond Warner
This is, like, my favorite concept that has dawned on me. I didn't invent it. I was at the DLN in London a few years ago, and Ilsa Crawford, who is, you know, one of my all time design heroes, gave a talk and she was showing images and she was like, well, you guys get it. Everyone in this room gets it. And I looked around and I was like, yes, we do. Absolutely. And what is that? I was like, it's because we all have this, you know, shared aesthetic intelligence. And once I started thinking about that as, like, a specific and valuable kind of intelligence, I was like, oh, it's not iq. It's not like that intellect, and it's not eq, which is like, you know, the charming, charismatic ability to move things forward on your personality. I was like, but it is special. And people who work in industries where, like, the senses are involved, I think have it. And it's like people who dress very well, people who are amazing chefs. Like, everybody has people in their life who, like, vibrate on that level, but it's never been named. Or maybe it has been named, but I hadn't heard it named. And so I was like, oh, I think it's like aesthetic intelligence. And I'm going to shorthand it aq. And I think it's the secret to having a life that feels good because that's how you connect with your senses. And so if you're able to kind of like, tap into that and be aware and maximize it where you can, you're going to enjoy your life more. And almost everybody who thinks to hire an interior designer has some amount of AQ and is like, yeah, I like, this definitely matters. But it's really fun to kind of watch a before and after where people are like, oh, I made an effort and color coded my books and then watch them make good choices over nine months and then come home and be like, oh, my God, this is what it was supposed to be the whole time. That is so special and lovely is.
- [40:34]
C
The idea that clients come in with a little bit of that, and then that's like a muscle that you're training and strengthening together to help them get to those end selections. Or how does it show up in your conversations with clients?
- [40:49]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I think that we are kind of presenting ideas and asking for feedback in, like, maybe more than one area. So I'll be like, oh, like, what music do you imagine listening to in this room? Or do you imagine there being a bar here? Are you gonna be having cocktail parties here? Is the lighting gonna be low? Is it gonna, like, are you. Will you be, like, snuggling, or will you be perched here? And so we try to think about a space in terms of how it's gonna live and its atmosphere. And then I'll make a playlist and we'll come up with some, like, wild aesthetic inspirations, and we'll be like, oh, this is this world. And it encompasses more than just how it looks. It is how it looks, how it sounds, how it feels, how it. You know, we're trying to make something that feels specific to the person, appropriate to the architecture and, like, not easy to date.
- [42:00]
C
When you show that to a client, when that all just sort of gets unveiled to them, is that what they're sort of saying? Like, yes, that. And then does that become, like, selections and choices and products later? Are they just opting into, like, Vibe, or is that also, like, the design potentially of their space?
- [42:20]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I think a good example and like, one of my favorite examples is we have a very artistic varsity collaborator client who she is able to articulate how she wants things to feel with amazing words. And she bought a House in Occidental in the woods. And she's like, I love it. It's so spooky. But I want it to be happy. But I also want it to remind me of David Lynch's Twin Peaks, But I also want it to be appropriate for a family. And I was like, oh, everything? Yes, absolutely. And so I will put together, like, a style guide, but it comes with a playlist first, and that is so much fun for me. And then while I pull the inspirations, I listen to the playlist, and then I send them both. And what's funny is I hardly ever get any feedback, and I think it's because they're so abstract, But I know, and my team knows that we are, like, kind of going to this place, and it translates into, you know, colors and lighting choices and fabrics, and it translates into everything. But I think, for the most part, clients are like, okay, well, I'll wait and see how this turns out.
- [43:48]
C
I love that you're saying you don't get that much feedback, because I feel if someone sent me, like, a Vibey mood board and a playlist, there is a visceral reaction that comes with that.
- [43:58]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Oh, my God. A super funny one that I also love. Like, another terrific collaborator. We were, like, kind of trapped between two worlds. And one was, like, artistic California, barefoot goat yogurt. And then the other one was, like. Was like a sea captain from a wooden ship who was washed ashore with his art collection. So they both, you know, what they shared was art. And she called and she was like, I don't know. I guess I'm more sea captain. Really, really didn't really care. And I was like, thank you so much for this. We will not let you down. The sea captain and their, like, art collection with full steam ahead. But, yeah, she was just like, I think it's really like, the pictures that I'm sure they're resonating with a little bit more. But to us, to me, to the office, it builds a world, and it really helps us.
- [45:02]
C
Is that primarily something that you're doing solo, or is that collaborative with your team?
- [45:06]
Chloe Redmond Warner
That is definitely, I would say. I love doing that. I do that, and I like asking my team to kind of do them to practice. But it's super. I mean, it's really fun, but that's where I see myself, adding value, and I'm not ready to give that part up.
- [45:29]
C
How have you approached talking to clients about money? How do you help them understand what design should cost, what their budget should be, and what your firm's time and talent should cost.
- [45:43]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I put together a scope in the beginning where I estimate how much the project that they are describing would cost in time and how much I want to request as a furnishings budget. And I put like a spread there. Like, they know that they can drive it towards the upper or lower end of the spectrum. And I purposely keep the top end pretty high because I want to scare people before they sign up. And I think that was like an amazing piece of advice from, I think, Martha Angus. When I was first starting, she was like, honey, you want to give people a heart attack first? And I was like, okay, permission to do it? Yeah, permission. And I think that's, I think that's good. Just to be like, you could spend this. You don't have to.
- [46:43]
C
Just to like normalize that big number.
- [46:45]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Yeah, I think you got to normalize that big number. And also, yeah, to like, know that that's a possibility and they can come back to me and be like, that is not a possibility. And then I will say, okay, that means you're going to be making hard choices. You know, a few hard choices, a lot of hard choices. But if people are like, even the bottom number isn't going to work. I'll be like, I just don't, you know, I like for like our time to be 20% or less of the overall spend at our office. Or else you're like, I'm like, you're not gonna feel like you're getting amazing things. Like our time with you will end and you will be left with a bunch of retail furniture. And that's not how I want to leave you. I want to leave you with things that are going to last for, you know, if it's all going to be hard choices, it's not going to be fun for anyone.
- [47:39]
C
You said time, so I'm assuming that's how you're charging. But how have you approached your firm's fee structure?
- [47:46]
Chloe Redmond Warner
We've always done hourly. I think there's been a few things where we've done flat fee. Oh, we did a huge commercial project for an apartment building and that was flat fee. But because we are like high end service, part of what that means is we say yes. If somebody has a request or an issue or anything, a problem, we will be like, yeah, we're on it, we're on it, we're on it. And so with a flat fee, I don't think I've ever been able to make that work because people are like, can we add this? Can we do this? Will you design a pool for us, and we just love to say yes, and then are like, oh, why are we spending? You know, why are we over the flat fee? Because, you know, because we designed a pool.
- [48:39]
C
Yeah, right.
- [48:42]
Chloe Redmond Warner
And. Yeah. Didn't think to, like, put a change order in. I'm not the best at that sort of thing.
- [48:47]
C
Is there a piece of billing that has given you pause as you've grown your business?
- [48:54]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Oh, I hate. I mean, I hate it. I take it super personally, but I just don't see. I don't see another way to do it. I listened to your Kate Marker episode recently, and she was like, flat fee. All in projects we bill every other month. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, by the time she was done, I was like, can't imagine that at all. But she seemed so happy. And I bet it does work. I just. I don't know. I don't love billing for time. I think it does take a ton of time. And so whenever I feel bad, I'm like, it actually takes this amount of time to do a good job, and I'm so careful to not inflate or deflate. I'm like, it just has to be accurate. And if I take time off, I'll write a note being like, we took time off because of maybe, like, a mistake we made. But, like, I'll never. I'll never just be like, just make it smaller to make it smaller to make someone else comfortable. And I think it's the only. It's the only way to have a business that pays people is to actually have revenue. And. I know, I know, but I had to be coached into this and because I love the job and I enjoy it. And I will say, as soon as recently as last year, there was a client that was like, we have, you know, gone over the estimate that we set forward back when the project scope was half of this, and therefore, you know, we no longer want to pay. And it is wild because my first instinct is, no problem. We'll just make it great. You know, and that is not a. That's not sustainable. And, you know, that's my instinct of what to say. But then, you know, I am actually, like, very hurt by that and don't understand why people think they can, you know, renegotiate a contract at the hour. And, yeah, have taken that issue to my coach and to my forum group, and it's not uncommon. Like, that is a thing that clients do to many designers, and it doesn't happen very often, but it's really. It's like scary. And it, it like rattles your cage when it happens because you're like, what? I would never, I would never move.
- [51:36]
C
Through the world like that.
- [51:38]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I would never move through the world like that.
- [51:41]
C
What part of running your firm has tested you the most as an entrepreneur?
- [51:47]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Oh, my God. The very few people that I have had to let go, it just destroys me. I have a really hard time firing people.
- [51:56]
C
Do you keep them for too long knowing it's not going to work?
- [51:59]
Chloe Redmond Warner
Not, like way too long. Once it dawns on me, it has to happen. I've never come back from an awareness that this person should probably go to, maybe they can stay. It's always been a question. And then over three weeks, it solidifies into certainty. But those three weeks, I don't sleep, I have trouble eating. It really messes with me and it's way more dramatic than I thought it would be. But I think to tap into the awareness that if it's not right for me, it's not right for them either. And that letting people go on a different path that is likely to be more aligned with them is for the best and it's likely that in a year they will be in a better place.
- [52:55]
C
One thing you said earlier that stuck with me was sort of this idea of like, not coming from a place of fear when being in your business. What does that mean for you now, especially after working with a coach?
- [53:11]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I think, you know, a clear example is maybe a few years ago when I was like, I was reviewing all of the time billing and we had a bill that was our biggest time bill ever and we had multiple people working on a project. People were spending a lot of worthy and necessary time. But I knew that the number was eye opening and I felt so bad about that. And I remember talking to my therapist about it because I was scared to let it go out because I didn't want to hear back and have to say those things, you know, I didn't want to have to say like, this is all, you know, worthy, necessary time and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, do I just say, like, it's a one off, we are doing all this work, but it's going to get better. And her advice was like, instead of apologizing or being afraid to send this, what if you took the internal attitude of being grateful to have this opportunity to do this beautiful work? And what if you imagined your clients seeing how much work is being done on their behalf and being like, wow, glad all this work is being done on our behalf and it was completely different than how I, you know, my instinct, which was to like minimize and apologize. But I was like, actually is really important and like meaningful work. And if people were doing this on my behalf, I would be psyched. Yeah. And I tried it and I sent the time billing and never heard anything.
- [55:08]
C
What does success mean for you today?
- [55:10]
Chloe Redmond Warner
I think I would like to figure out a way to have a business that outlasts its founder. And there are so few interior design firms that outlive their named partner. And I can't quite figure out why. And I would, I would like to, and I would like to be a firm that does that.
- [55:37]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear hear from you and you can email me at tradetalesbusinessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson.
- [56:13]
C
Thanks again for listening and I'll see.
- [56:15]
Caitlin Peterson
You back here next week.