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Trade Tales
Hannah Oravec on bringing wellness into the design process
00:49:42
Hannah Oravec on her first foray into retail, why the best new hires have their own personal taste, and how her careful approach to pricing a job balances overbidding for the work without scaring clients away.
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- [00:03]
A
It's important not to have carbon copies of myself. You know, I don't want to just hire another one of me because that's not interesting, that's not coming up with new ideas. We already have one of me. And so being able to have other people on the team who have different aesthetics and can bring something to the table, I think makes again for a better project at the end of the day.
- [00:25]
B
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season six of the show, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots, and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer whose firm places a special focus on wellness. As she scales her business, she's navigating how to protect her values while embracing growth and embarking on the shift in leadership that comes with it. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsor. This podcast is brought to you by clofs, the world leader in sauna luxury. For thousands of years, sauna bathing has provided the heat we crave. With claf saunas, you can select the exact levels of temperature and humidity to create a wide range of soothing atmospheres, from a classic finish sauna to a gentler, soft steam experience. When you step into a CLOF sauna, you are in control. To learn more about the leaders in sauna luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit clothsusa.com that's K L A F S USA.com.
- [02:07]
A
I actually grew up in the same house that my mom grew up in and my dad was always renovating it. So I was always exposed to that. Was always kind of helping him with little miscellaneous projects, even getting really into picking out like colors with him and materials and just going to the store with him. I feel like I was really immersed. So something I just knew really early on that I wanted to do.
- [02:29]
B
That's Hannah Orifak. After studying architecture and design, she landed her first postgrad job at a design firm. That's when she decided to take on a side gig.
- [02:41]
A
I found this online company that I did e design for. I had a bunch of student loans and so I was like, if I can have a secondary job that I can make a little bit More income. I can pay off my student loan a lot quicker. So I did that for about a year. I had gotten another job up in Boston after a year. I was going to move back to Massachusetts at that time. The week that I was moving back to Boston, actually met my now husband. He had his own business at the time. This was about 10 years ago. And I was like, wow. Entrepreneurship wasn't really as popular then, I think, because social media wasn't as popular. And so I was like, wow, you're 25. How do you have a business? I thought you had to be, you know, 40, 50 years old, you know, work your way up the corporate ladder, then start a business.
- [03:25]
B
As the relationship progressed, Hannah got a firsthand look at entrepreneurship, and she began to think about her own career differently as a result.
- [03:34]
A
I had mentioned to him the E Design stuff that I was doing, and he was like, you could totally turn that into a business. You don't need to be working and doing that for someone else. You can do that yourself. And so the next year, that's when I formed Lawless. I made the website, I made a portfolio. I did renderings for about six months. I worked on that stuff. And then in 2017, I got my first client in person in Boston.
- [03:58]
B
By the following year, Hannah went all in on her own firm. I wanted to talk to her about her first foray into retail, why the best new hires have their own personal taste, and how her careful approach to pricing a job balances overbidding for the work without scaring clients away. What cemented for you, like that shift into residential or the pull of residential work?
- [04:25]
A
What I think is really cool about residential design is you get to know your clients so well and you learn about their families and their kids and what sports their kids play and where they go on vacation. And you learn all these things because you're working together for years. And one of our clients, they in early on in onboarding, they had mentioned that they love to travel, and they went to Portugal for their honeymoon. And our team's always taking a lot of notes on little things that clients might say that, you know, is very personal, that we can kind of relate to or add that into design. And we had found these really cool bar stools for their kitchen, and they were from Portugal. And the husband always comments on them whenever they're. Whenever we're over there, and their friends and stuff, saying that they're his favorite piece because they have that sentimental value of reminding him of a really beautiful time that he got to have with his wife on their honeymoon. And so it's those little things that I think is really cool to be able to add that personalization into a client's home and make it feel. Make it feel like it was designed specifically for them, because it was.
- [05:38]
B
I want to talk about how you forge that connection with clients. What does that look like in the early stages of meeting somebody when you're onboarding? And how does that effort you put in at the beginning kind of help a project flourish down the road?
- [05:56]
A
We have a lot of conversations with clients even before we start designing. So even before we get into looking and talking about colors or their vision or anything like that, I always ask a client, you know, from that initial call and consultation, tell me about yourself. Tell. Tell me about your family. I want to hear about you. We also have a client questionnaire that we send out to our clients once they are onboarded. That's part of our onboarding process. And so it has everything from, you know, colors that you like or metal finishes that you prefer, down to how you take your coffee, where do you shop for clothes, what is your favorite candle scent, anything like that. Because if a client is coming to our studio for a morning meeting or we're going on site for a meeting, we'll go and to a coffee shop and get their coffee for them. So we're going on to that site having coffee for them. And again, it's those little touches that I think sets us apart, where it's that whole service base where you think you're paying for an interior designer, but you're also paying for all of these other little things. And we're hearing and we're listening to you. And so I think it's really just creating that value and again, kind of that relationship, too, with a client.
- [07:14]
B
What are some of the other things in that vein that you'll do to really cement that relationship early on?
- [07:20]
A
This is something that we do actually at the end of a project, but throughout a project, I love music. It's something that I'm really passionate about. And so I create these project playlists on Spotify. And it's really just different songs that I feel like give kind of a sense to the vibe that the house is going to be at the end. So at the end of a project for their client, gift week, give our clients a custom vinyl of the different songs. And so after the photography's done and we have our professional photos, we put that together, and that's the gift that we give them. And I think it's just A really cool kind of custom gift that we give to our clients. And so we'll try to incorporate music, too. We might see some of their own albums that they have at their home or we've had conversations about music that they like. So adding those things in I think is really fun.
- [08:12]
B
What is the secret to client fit for you? Who are you looking for, what are you looking for? And what makes you say yes to a job today?
- [08:22]
A
Clients have been coming to us more and more because of our focus on wellness, which I think is really amazing. That's something that I'm really passionate about and something that we incorporate into our projects. And then also having that project management where the client allows and this goes into the whole trust factor. And listening to a client is they are allowing you to make the decisions for them and you're presenting them with a couple of options and they're trusting you that what you are giving them is going to look great and, you know, be executed as to what their end goal was that they initially told you. I also think it comes down to personality, too, and, you know, just even different ways that we manage a project. We are a very, you know, high touch team where we send out weekly emails on Mondays to clients about weekly email updates about, hey, here's what we're working on this week. Here's the decisions we need you to make. We do a lot of project management. There might be a client that might not need that. Maybe they don't want that. Maybe they stay at home and they have more time. I think a lot of our clients, you know, typically they're couples, young families, they have kids. They don't have the time that, you know, it takes to manage contractors or subs, nor do they want to or have the experience. And I always say there's, you know, we're not the designers for everyone, and that's okay. There's so many great designers that might be a better fit for someone than us. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that.
- [09:54]
B
You mentioned, you know, the developing the trust so that they, you know, trust the options they're getting, trust the selections they're making, trust that what they've selected will be realized and meet their goals. What does it take to get there?
- [10:09]
A
I think a lot of it comes down to listening, and sometimes that's kind of also compromise. You know, maybe there's something where you're like, hey, I actually think that this might be the best route. And maybe a client just can't see it. Maybe they can't visualize it and you know, maybe you go with the safer option that time, but then on something that you really think is going to be this really amazing focal point, maybe that's something that you do push for and you're not pushing for every single amazingly different, you know, wild, funky design element. I like to call it a Hail Mary where we might like put like a really like funky chair in or this like interesting paint color that maybe they hadn't thought of or just whatever that is. And sometimes a client picks it, sometimes they don't. And you know, we don't need to force everything on someone. I think at the end of the day, a big thing for me is reminding us that we are designing this home for our clients and this is their home. And our goal is to make sure that they love it. And not only do they love it at the end, but they also love the process. And so creating a really great process and project for them where we're taking the stress away from them, I think is really important.
- [11:26]
B
What kind of team have you built around you to guarantee that the process feels good?
- [11:34]
A
So we have Rafaela, who is our director of operations, where she is the one that's doing a lot of the project management, the order management, continually following up with our clients on our weekly email updates. Mari is our senior interior designer that is amazing. That heads up our design projects now. And then we have Erica as well, who's another one of our interior designers designers who's been with me for four years now and she was my first hire. So we're a small but mighty team and I feel like clients are able to really trust our team and I think we all work really well together because we have a really great collaborative team at the studio. So I think that's really important they see that.
- [12:20]
B
What role have you carved out for yourself within the studio?
- [12:24]
A
It's interesting because it's actually just recently changed a lot this year.
- [12:29]
B
A lot.
- [12:30]
A
Our studio has been through a lot of different things because we did also open a vintage furniture shop this year back in the spring. And so that's where, you know, hiring another interior designer for this studio was really important because I knew that I could only have my hand in so many projects. And for years I was the only one working on projects and we had some part time help. But truly I was the only one going on site, meeting with clients and doing different things. And now just even in the last three weeks of having a baby.
- [13:08]
B
Congratulations, by the way.
- [13:10]
A
Thank you. Now it's crazy because even, you know, six Months later, from opening another business, now having a baby, I'm just releasing more and more of projects and design, and I'm doing a lot less of the design and more business and more management now.
- [13:29]
B
How does that feel?
- [13:30]
A
It feels really good. I feel like what's really cool is when you start bringing in other designers other than yourself, that you get a new perspective and a new kind of outlook on design, and they have interesting ideas that you might not have thought of. And I think it's really cool to be able to collaborate on design. And I've really enjoyed that because for a long time, like I mentioned, it was just myself doing it.
- [13:54]
B
Yeah.
- [13:54]
A
And I think it's fun to bring in someone else's ideas because I think that just makes for a better end product at the end of the day for the client. So it's been really great. I love business. I love analytics. I'm definitely a business nerd in that sense. So it's. It's been a nice change to be able to have other. Have other people on the team have different roles.
- [14:19]
B
Where are you sort of stepping in or starting a project to set the esthetic or how important is it for you that your sort of the aesthetic vision that you establish sort of at the outset of the firm continues to be the look and feel of the end products your team is creating.
- [14:38]
A
When we are hiring, we look for someone who has, you know, some sense of our design esthetic established already, but then also can bring their own personal design esthetic to the team as well. I think it's important not to have carbon copies of myself in projects. You know, I don't want to just hire another one of me because that's not interesting, that's not coming up with new ideas. You know, we already have one of me. And so being able to have other people on the team who have different aesthetics and can bring something to the table makes, again, for a better project. At the end of the day, I.
- [15:18]
B
Feel like I talk to so many people on the show who say, you know, they worked for somebody else and it took them a long time to find their own voice. When you're looking for an employee who, you know, can speak your language and then add something to it, what is sort of the test for that?
- [15:36]
A
I look at their portfolio, and I think that when you're hiring, being able to see creativity versus just seeing a specific design aesthetic, I think what's important for myself is we have, you know, our core set of values as far as materials that we use or using natural Materials and earth tones and kind of we have a design aesthetic, but then we also do modern, we do transitional, and we kind of do a multitude of different styles. And I think when you see that in someone else's work, where maybe they've done different aesthetics, but then they do have their kind of key design elements that are incorporated into every project, I think that's where you can see, okay, they're going to fit here because they get it. They understand that there's a foundation somewhere.
- [16:25]
B
You mentioned, you know, wellness as sort of a core component of your business. Was there a moment when that crystallized, when you realized that that should be sort of an essential component of what your firm was offering?
- [16:39]
A
Back when I was working for the hospitality firm in Boston, I was going to go for leed and well had just come out, I think, that year, where well is how the buildings affect the people in them and LEED is how the buildings affect the environment. I felt more called to how buildings affect the people in them because it's a little bit more of the interiors. Obviously, with interior design and with wellness being such a passion of mine, I started to see how all the little decisions that we make, how they can affect our lives and our well being in them. And so I got my accreditation for, well, about, probably about eight years ago at that point, you know, I had some hormone health issues about like six or seven years ago. And I think that also solidified about like different cleaning products that I use or different beauty products. And kind of just. I think it's something that you just continually are growing and learning about. And so it's just been a passion of mine. And when you think, when you start to learn about one thing, it then relates to another and correlates to another. And so, you know, it's really just grown in the studio.
- [17:53]
B
What is sort of the foundation of that certification for somebody who's thinking about it, who might want to take that step? What was that process like and what did it initially sort of reveal to you about how you wanted to work differently?
- [18:06]
A
I think that if you want to work in the commercial field, I think that, well, accreditation is a great thing. I don't necessarily think that someone needs to specifically get it just to understand wellness and design. But I think, you know, I think they have a great foundation of aspects and attributes that you can learn about. So, for instance, learning about the healthy materials in it, or the biophilic design, learning about how lighting is important or water, indoor air quality, there's all of these different factors that go into, well, that we've attributed into our designs, too.
- [18:41]
B
When you're talking to a client about wellness, what are some of the examples that you give of how that will show up in their home and support them?
- [18:52]
A
So, initially, early on, I think space planning is a great one. And layout and really thinking about the function and the ergonomics of a room layout, thinking about, you know, where the daylight is in it and the windows and how we're setting up rooms and the furniture in the rooms, I think that's kind of the really early on stages of something. And color is another great thing that we talk about with clients as far as their design aesthetic and how they just want to feel in their home. And a lot of times that is you have different rooms that have different feelings. One of my favorite things to design in a home is a dark and moody space. My team, like, knows and clients know I love a dark and moody space. But you might not necessarily want your whole home to feel very dark and moody. That might be a little eerie and depressing, but having little pockets of different things. You know, maybe you want a really cozy study or library with a fireplace in there to feel really warm and inviting, but in your living spaces, in your kitchen, maybe you want it to feel a little bit more light and airy and have a lot of windows in there. So I think that's another huge thing is the psychology of color. The other things, and I think, you know, really importantly are the materials that we use in a home. I'm a huge advocate for, for natural stone in a kitchen and bathroom. I'm not a fan of quartz for a number of reasons, but just other than, you know, aesthetics alone, because I think marble and soapstone are beautiful and just have natural. Great natural veining is the manufacturing process of quartz, you know, causes a lot of respiratory issues for people. And, you know, quartz is now being banned in other countries like Australia. So just having a lot of conversations, I think, with clients about why our team uses certain materials and why we make specific choices with our upholsteries. We use all natural fiber, cottons, wools, shoots, things like that. You know, we talk about how it'll help with air quality. Microplastics won't be in the materials that we're using with, like rugs, if you have dogs or young kids. So we have a lot of conversation throughout the project with that.
- [21:11]
B
How has being more open about that focus on wellness shifted your business or shifted the way you feel within your business?
- [21:22]
A
Well, I think at the end of the day, more People are coming to us for that reason. More people. I think it's also just even a shift. I think wellness is becoming more apparent about what is being used in like our skin care, beauty products or what's in our food. I think it's just a conversation that more and more people are having. And so I think more people are excited about that. We work with a lot of people. We've worked with athletes, you know, people who are in the wellness space and it's something that they want and that they're pursuing. You know, and someone who's an athlete is, you know, looking to be at the top of their health. You know, having these key elements implemented in their home is really vital for them too.
- [22:12]
B
How do you think about, I mean, wellness is such a funny word maybe, because I do think it stretches into. Right. Human health, health of the planet, sustainability, ethics. In some ways. How do you sort of draw a circle around what that means to you?
- [22:30]
A
To me, I think it's just a culmination of all the different factors. I don't think that it's just one thing. And I think that's something that even personally for myself over the years I've learned. I think, you know, back when I was younger, I thought that being healthy was exercising and eating well. I didn't think that sleep was important. You know, I didn't know about the different ingredients in cleaning products or other things. And so I think that wellness isn't just prioritizing one thing, but it's prioritizing multitude of different things.
- [23:05]
B
To prepare for the show. I asked you, what is your superpower at work beyond design? And you, you told us that you are an efficiency queen. Well, you didn't use those words, but I'm going to use those words. I want to talk about that. I think so often, especially, you know, creative people don't raise their hand and be like, I'm super efficient. You know, where does that come from? What does that look like? And how have you put those skills into your business for good?
- [23:38]
A
I definitely think that I get it from my mother, who is definitely a list task maker. And so I think I always just grew up seeing her being really mindful and thoughtful about those different things. And so I'm a huge to do list person where I have my daily to do lists and then I also have weekly and then ongoing lists that I have. So I prioritize. I set a to do list for that day of the different things that I want to get done and put them in, you know, order of what's most important to me to get done that day. Sometimes you get everything done. Sometimes things might carry over into the next day. Something else comes up, you know. But I also do not disturb is my favorite thing on my phone. My family and friends and clients all make fun of me because my phone is always on. Do not disturb. You can call me and I'll come through, but if you text me or send me an email or whatever, I don't get any notifications. When I'm working, I want to be so productive and get something done as quickly as I can to move on to the next thing. I also think that just even in the work environment and hiring, I will learn a task and how to do something before I hire someone to do it. So I can understand what might work, what might not. Relatively like how long should this be taking? Or how long should like you know, what am I doing wrong here? Or I kind of learn all of the mistakes on it to understand when I'm bringing someone into the team, I understand what that process is. I kind of love learning different things and so I think it's a fun challenge to learn. And then I think it's also nice to be able to have that understanding of all the different aspects of the business so that if I need to do something or we're hiring a new person, we're able to train too.
- [25:33]
B
What do your firm's systems look like.
- [25:36]
A
For all of our projects? We have, you know, an outline of how our projects run. Like I mentioned, we have an onboarding process with clients. We have all of our design phases that we work in and then each person on our team has specific roles that they play on each project or the a junior designer, a senior interior designer. Our new project management. We have all the different roles and everyone kind of understands their key piece to a project.
- [26:08]
B
Is there a software or a program that keeps you organized or what did you turn to to kind of keep everything in in check?
- [26:17]
A
We use Studio Designer for all of our specs and order management and then we use Google. We do a lot of things in slides and sheets and documents. I think what's nice is they're all live documents so you don't have to worry about saving or having the most up to date thing. We all have that accessed in our Google Drive.
- [26:41]
B
We're taking a quick break to remind you you about cloths, the world leader in sauna luxury. The finest natural materials are essential for creating the cloth sauna experience. Carefully selected woods from around the world lend distinctive qualities to each Cloths design Making every moment within your sauna exceptional. When it comes to material selection, there is no compromise. Cloughs the art of sauna since 1928. To learn more about the leaders in Sana Luxury and their exclusive trade program, visit clothsusa.com that's k l a f s usa.com Is there anything that hasn't worked for you that you had to pivot away from?
- [27:32]
A
So many things. I feel like every couple months it's like, oh, this isn't working. We're moving on to this. And you know what? I think that's also a huge benefit of hiring is getting different people's experiences in and seeing how someone else might have done something at a different studio or, you know, figured out a different way to do something. I think that's really great to, to get those different experiences in. So I've had so many different softwares that we've changed over the years, different project management tools, I mean, you name it, I, I've made all the mistakes over the years.
- [28:13]
B
How do you talk to clients about money, about the investment in design, but also in what working with you and your firm will cost?
- [28:21]
A
I think that is something that can always be a awkward conversation if you don't have it early on. So I always like to have the financial talks with clients, you know, obviously from that initial consultation, even when they're sending the inquiry as far as like, hey, like, what is your budget for this project? And you know, I talk about it in the initial call with a client too. And we continually will have those conversations. I would rather have a client expect to pay more or expect our time to be more and, you know, overestimate our hours for project because we work hourly versus under bidding a project and then being, you know, on edge about, oh, we gotta like do this quicker, oh, I have now have to talk to a client that it's gonna cost a lot. I'd rather come back and be under budget from them because it's just kind of that feel good again, that trust with the client. If we're bidding a project and we're under bidding it, and then I have to go to a client halfway through a project saying, hey, we actually already worked all of the hours that we, you know, the project's gonna need this much more. The client's gonna lose trust at that point.
- [29:36]
B
How, how do you navigate that without, you know, scaring the client away? How do you strike that balance where you're like, okay, we can absolutely come in under this.
- [29:47]
A
We give clients a range okay. So I think that's really helpful. And I think too, when you're giving clients, when they're seeing the higher end, we talk about why it could get to that higher end. Maybe you're wanting to see more options for something or you want more iterations of something. If you're more decisive, then it's going to be a lot less money. And so I think that's also kind of the incentive of putting it on the client as far as, hey, you can save money here if you're going to make decisions quicker, but if you want to see 10 different options and then we're going back to the first option that we initially presented to you, then it's going to be more money. Yeah, So I think it's just having those conversations with the client. First. We work hourly and we bill monthly versus, you know, if we're working a bunch and we use half our fee in that first month, you know, and then a client sees the bill and they're like, oh, what the heck? I didn't have that expectation. I think setting clear boundaries and expectations for a client with hours, projects, you know, how long something is going to take. That's why we also do the weekly client email updates. So there's that constant communication as far as they know what we're working on or if we're pausing on something or waiting on something for them to make a decision on.
- [31:05]
B
Is that hourly billing only for the design time or is that also for the project management phase, the hourly billing?
- [31:12]
A
So we, when we estimate a project, we only estimate the design time, because that was one of the mistakes I made, you know, over the years was management. It's just impossible to guess how many hours it's going to take for you to project manage something if you don't have a contractor picked out. You know, if you're using your contractor that you've worked with 10 times or if it's a new person that the client wants to bring in, those are going to be two very different hours for us because we know the builders that we work with. We know how to communicate with them. We know how many times we need to be on site or all those different things. We have a better understanding than someone else that we might not know. But also there's always random things that come up on projects. Sometimes clients want a little bit more management and a little bit more handholding, and sometimes they don't need that. And so again, those are conversations that we have with the client as far as how much do you want us to be involved. And so I like to break it out that we only can be definitive on the design time, or at least generally definitive versus the project management and our order management. So anything where we're writing the specs on, sending it through studio designer, working with their receiver on everything, those are things that too a lot of times are out of our hands as far as how long something's going to take. You know, like with deliveries, them never showing up, things being damaged, it's hard to estimate those things. And I don't really think it's fair to give a number to a client because there's so many different factors that can change it.
- [32:49]
B
Do clients want that number for project management or are they understanding of sort of the open ended nature of, of that part?
- [32:57]
A
We have not been giving them project management order management fees for probably about a year and a half now. And I've not had one client have an issue with it.
- [33:09]
B
Okay. I mean, because that's a significant part of the project budget. I would imagine it is.
- [33:14]
A
And it's something again we just communicate with them. It's also something I think is a little bit more tangible for people to see how much you're working on it. You know, if they see how many design meetings that they have in their, in their invoices that we're sending them, they can see how many site visits we've had. It's a little bit more clear as far as like externally what can be seen versus design. I don't think clients.
- [33:41]
B
Nobody knows what that means.
- [33:42]
A
Yeah, no, no. So I think it's a little bit easier for people to kind of understand.
- [33:46]
B
How are you talking about the investment level you want your clients to have in the, in the furnishings of their home as well?
- [33:54]
A
I think what's really important is finding that line of, you know, how long are they going to be in the house, what their design esthetic is, their budget is and you know, bringing in all of those different factors as far as like what their end goal investment would be. A big thing for us is vintage obviously with, that's why I started the, the shop anyways. Obviously I have such an admiration for vintage. I think that it, you know how we talk about that personalization touch. I think that vintage pieces bring in that really cool character to home. With our studio being in New England, we work on a lot of historic old homes and so I love having new mixed with old in there. And also at the end of the day I think that like vintage furniture was all handmade and the quality is very High and amazing. And so I think if a client's investment is a little bit like they can change. Maybe they want a little bit high and low or something like that. I think a vintage is a great option for people, for different resources.
- [35:05]
B
Do you have a budget minimum to work with your firm or how are you assessing like budget fit?
- [35:13]
A
We don't necessarily. I don't have a specific number. I think sometimes it really just depends on the project. I think that, you know, if it's a client where maybe they're phasing the project, maybe I won't be as selective if they don't have, you know, X amount, you know, ready now. Exactly. You know, if we know this is going to be a longer term thing or you know, they have another property that they want to work on. I think for me it's more about is this client a right fit for a number of reasons and then we can figure out a minimum. Obviously it needs to make sense for our studio to work on. Like we won't work on a decoration of like a one room kind of thing. But I don't necessarily have a hard line as far as, yes, we'll take this project on or we won't take it on.
- [36:03]
B
Do you put a kind of spend requirement in your contract?
- [36:07]
A
We don't have spend. We have an understanding. You know, I don't think at the end of the day I want to put in my contract right now, at least you have to spend X amount of your money on this. I think again, it kind of just goes back to that trust factor of the clients hiring us and we're trusting them, that we are working on all the rooms that we quoted for them. And with all of those rooms, we feel comfortable that there's enough of a project for our team for, you know, financially to make sense for our team to work on.
- [36:40]
B
How are you thinking about profitability for your business?
- [36:43]
A
Think about it all the time. That is something that I love the business. I'm like nerdy financial side of things. And so that's something that I'm constantly looking at. I think that there's being able to understand finances and the business side of things is like the most important thing when running an interior design too. It's the most important thing in running any business because at the end of the day, if you can't be profitable, then you're not having a successful business and you can't grow what drives profit.
- [37:13]
B
For the design side of the business.
- [37:15]
A
We have two different factors. So it's our time and Then the furniture and, you know, any trade markups that we're getting, our furniture is majority of the profit. And then our hourly is a little bit extra. So I don't like to have it be like we're just breaking even with our hourly. I like to have a little bit of a buffer in there.
- [37:38]
B
How do you know when it's time to raise your rates?
- [37:40]
A
We're constantly looking at that. I think that it's, you know, what market you're in, you know, what our clients. Where are you able to be? We're in the Boston area, so I think that rates are a little bit higher here compared to, you know, if we were in somewhere else in the country. I think that when your studio has enough credibility too, I think when you're growing and you have different, you know, number of projects down on point, I think it's part of, like, a confidence level. I think we haven't raised our rates in the last year. I think we're at a really good spot. But, you know, when you're first starting out in the business, too, your rates are significantly lower. And a lot of that is just coming down to experience. And I think as your knowledge and your experience grows, that's when you're able to raise your rates because you're able to deliver a better project and give clients a better value at the end of the day. I also think too, with our studio is we have more seasoned designers. We don't necessarily have junior designers. And so I feel comfortable with our rates being at a certain point because we're not having someone who is in school or just out of school doing something. We're having our team members who have 10 years experience doing the design work, so they're very efficient with stuff.
- [39:01]
B
Do you charge different rates for different team members, or is everyone billing at the same rate?
- [39:06]
A
Everyone's billed at the same rate currently. I think it would change if we did bring in other junior designers. I think that is a different conversation. But the three designers, myself and Eric and Mari, we all have the same experience.
- [39:19]
B
What part of running your firm has tested you the most as an entrepreneur.
- [39:24]
A
Separating business from personal life? I think that when you're running a business, and I think this is something that I didn't really realize from the beginning is it's really hard to turn off. I think also just being incredibly passionate about what I do and knowing that this is, you know, what I've wanted to do basically my whole life, it's really easy for me to continue wanting to work and do Stuff and work on the business and never really putting things down because I'm so excited about things and like, it's so fun like that we get to do this and like the shop now is something that's also really fun. It's like sourcing for the shop and pulling all these cool things I'm looking at. And I think I've had to, especially this year with getting pregnant and having my daughter a few weeks ago is like, wow. Like, okay, I do need to slow down. I do want to live my life in a manner of having a little bit more of like a personal life hang out. My husband, my family and like, I think it's been a really great awakening for me this year as far as I started my business. I actually told the company I was leaving. The reason I was starting Lawless is because I wanted to have a career, that I was able to have a family still and be able to raise my kids and go to my kids soccer games and be a part in a big presence of my children's lives. So that's something for me now that we do have that, it's like I want to be in her life all the time. And so being able to have a great career and, you know, businesses is one thing, but I think to me, family is so much more important. At the end of the day.
- [41:08]
B
Do you feel already a pull to show up at work differently in the future?
- [41:14]
A
Yes, yes. I actually stopped in a couple of days ago to drop some things off for the shop and I think for me it's just going to look a little differently. We're still trying to navigate care and working the business. But I think what's been really amazing is I have such a supportive team who some of the other girls on the team are mothers as well. And so I think, you know, one thing that when we were opening the new. We opened a new office this year, we were moving in there. I wanted it to be a place where anyone on the team felt comfortable that this was going to be a studio where we work really hard when we're here. But work isn't everything. And I want, you know, family and, you know, things that you're really passionate about at the end of the day to be a big presence in your life. And so I think that is a company culture that we've created that again, work is really important, but it's not everything. And we create these great relationships and, you know, manage these projects extremely well for clients. But at the end of the day, there's also more to life than design and more to life than what we're working on for projects. And so just having my daughter in the last three weeks, it's just been truly amazing just to have a little bit of a separation from work and just, you know, I'm not, you know, not exactly. I know the team, you know, was trying to get me not to do anything, but I'm a little bit of a psycho. So I do like to just check in and, you know, do a few miscellaneous things, things throughout the day. But it's been nice to kind of have that little bit of a break and, you know, different difference and kind of have like a little bit of an eye opening as far as what things are going to look like in the future for our studio.
- [43:05]
B
As you're thinking about what balance looks like moving forward, does that change? Like, you know, do you need to staff up? Do you accept projects differently? How does. How does the business shift around you in addition to kind of you shifting your approach to the business?
- [43:22]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think that definitely continuing to hire is something that I want to be doing, continuing to grow the team. You know, I'm not the. I don't need to be doing everything. I think we have such an amazing team already that, you know, if we continue to grow, that I don't need to have my hand in everything. And I think that's the importance of being a leader and growing a team is you hire people to do the job so that, you know, better than I could at the end of the day. I also think that it's, you know, having conversations this year when we were onboarding clients or, you know, taking on new projects, having conversations that I'm not going to be on every call or any meeting and setting those expectations, because before I was. And clients, I've gotten so much great feedback from clients as far as the other girls on the team that they've been working with and the positive experiences that they've had. And to me, that just makes me, you know, be like, okay, great, we can continue to hire and continue to keep doing more. I think each year we get more selective on the projects that we're taking on and the clients that we're working on. I think that's just something that every studio, you know, you continue to kind of, you know, challenge yourself and take on different things.
- [44:31]
B
How have your goals evolved since you launched the firm?
- [44:36]
A
I'm constantly looking at different projects that we want to get or just like, different designs that we want to do or, you know, different elements that we're going to add into the business. For instance, for years, I've always said, too, that I see Lawless as being not just a design firm. And so for years, I've always wanted to have a furniture shop. And when we were moving our studio this year, there was a open space right next door. And I was like, man, this is actually the perfect size for a retail store. And I was like, this just isn't the right time right now. You know, I knew that I was wanting to have a family soon, and I was like, this just like, is not great time at all. And, you know, having a lot of conversations with my husband, I think what's really amazing is my husband's my biggest supporter. And I know I would not have had my business if it wasn't for him just being able to encourage me and just being that person, you know, talking through all the business ideas and everything like that. And he was really the one to encourage me to go out full time on Lawless. And he was also the one to encourage me to open the shop this year. And I was terrified, too. And I was like, well, what if it doesn't work? Or whatever. And he's like, well, yeah, what if it doesn't? Like, you'll make it work. Which I think is so cool to have a partner to be able to do that and be able to give you that support. So opening the shop this year, I'll just say, was not on in the plans at all for my forecast for this year. And it really just made sense because we were able to get a space right next door to our studio. There's a doorway that go. That connects them. So both our shop team and our design team are able to work together on different things. I'm able to be at both places throughout the day when I'm there. So I think it's important just to be adaptive, you know, when different experiences and different opportunities come up, to be able to kind of shift and adapt to that.
- [46:36]
B
Has the industry changing also impacted the way you've adjusted your business?
- [46:42]
A
I think a lot more people are immersed into design, especially with social media right now. And so I think it's where they might say, like, oh, I've seen this brand, or like this sofa, and, you know, being be like, hey, you know, I've used this company before, I've had issues, or, you know what? That fabric is not going to be a good fabric. You know, it's going to stain or whatever. You know, maybe this is an alternative. I think that. I think that's probably the biggest challenge in the industry that our team is seeing is just how immersed people are nowadays.
- [47:18]
B
Is that a good thing or a bad thing that people know more?
- [47:21]
A
I think that's a really positive thing because I do think that, I think there's such a shift too with, you know, in the last few years, people seen the value in our industry and seeing the value in your home and investing in your home because so many more people are, are in our home nowadays. So I think that is really cool. I think just the challenge is if there's someone who maybe, you know, thinks that they know a little bit more because they've seen things online, I think that's just might when it might become more of a challenge. But quite honestly, I feel like we're extremely lucky where I feel like we have such amazing clients. I feel like very rarely do we have a difficult client that is tough to work with. I think we've been able to this is something that, you know, over the years you're able to vet out clients a little bit better or understand questions to ask or, you know, be able to financially be in a place where you can take on specific projects.
- [48:23]
B
What does success mean to you?
- [48:26]
A
To me, success is my family, really. I mean, being able to have a business be successful is one thing, but I think having an amazing husband and family outside of work, I think is really what matters to me most and what, you know, really drives me at the end of the day.
- [48:53]
B
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Before you go, if you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, more great podcasts, check out new products or browse job openings. Head on over to businessofhome.com if you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@trade talesusofhome.com finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson with Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you again in two weeks.