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Trade Tales
How better boundaries helped Adam Hunter fall back in love with his business
00:53:58
Adam Hunter on the hire who brought consistency to his firm’s processes, how he developed boundaries to protect his professional relationships, and how he’s looking at his firm’s mission in a new light after the wildfires in Los Angeles.
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- [00:03]
Adam Hunter
We need to be together. We need to feel things and be tactile and talk to each other and have that bounce back and have the happy accident moment where they say something and I say something and it turns into the right textile. There's something that happens in the room that reminds me very much of being in the room in the theater.
- [00:23]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Hi, I'm Kaitlyn Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season seven of the show where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer whose first career on Broadway gave way to a second act in design, where he's tapping into his talent for selling a vision. His candor throughout our conversation shines a bright light on the real cost of design at a certain echelon of the industry. He also explains how a shift toward cultivating deeper relationships helped him find the right size for his firm, why landing celebrity clients isn't always all it's cracked up to be, and why he's thinking bigger as he embarks on the next stage of his career. I can't wait to share it with you, but first a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is sponsored by Lutron. Lutron offers a variety of whole home solutions that allow designers to control light like never before. Create beautiful bespoke and intuitive scenes for your clients with Lutron's unrivaled quality of light, motorized window treatments and custom engraved controls. Visit experience.lutron.com to get inspired today. This podcast is also sponsored by Serena and Lily, whose trade program offers designers exclusive access to their high quality collections including com and custom size upholstery, and a dedicated support team for seamless end to end collaboration. Other trade member benefits include the best pricing, fast complimentary swatches, competitive lead times and an extended window for returns. Plus, Serena and Lily trade members receive additional discounts and free white glove delivery offers on their benchmade furniture and decor throughout the year. Visit serenandlily.comtradetales to become a member today.
- [02:52]
Adam Hunter
I always say that there are those of us who are rearranging their bed by age 5 and I was definitely one of those. I am from Winnetka, Illinois, which is 20 minutes north of Chicago and My neighbor growing up was Holly Hunt, so I feel like I was always doing this. However, my first career was singing on Broadway. You know, it was the family business. My mom was also on Broadway. You know, I was very lucky to do it very early. I graduated Michigan at 21, and I was in Les Mis a couple months later. But when I was on Broadway, I would be the guy who went flea Marketing with Patti LuPone and Julie Andrews and people like that. So, again, it was always sort of part of my thing.
- [03:32]
Kaitlyn Peterson
That's Adam Hunter. After spending a decade on Broadway, he relocated to Los Angeles for a role in a TV series. The show was canceled before it even started filming, leaving Adam to search for a new gig.
- [03:46]
Adam Hunter
I met Spencer Barnes. He was the makeup artist to Kate Somerville. She is in Guru to the Stars here in Melrose Place. And Kelly Werstler was doing Kate's skin health clinic. Kelly had to do the Viceroy and was getting a little too well known. And Kate was saying, what am I going to do least? Too busy, I'm sure. I think they were doing it for whatever arrangement they had. And then he said, wait, my friend and I can do it. And I circuitously, very randomly ended up doing that, which actually was quite a splash. The Brentwood Palisades women would go to see that. And then I was suddenly doing ground ups very early in that area.
- [04:22]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Within a matter of months, Adam was straddling two careers. Taking client meetings in the morning and auditioning in the afternoon. Before long, he realized that it might be time to choose.
- [04:34]
Adam Hunter
My friends were saying how I was being a designer. I was sort of shamed about it. I was like, I'm not really a designer, you guys. I'm gonna come back and get my Tony Award. And they're like, but maybe this is your Tony Award. And I remember my friend saying that. And I thought, what being a designer for, like, rich people? What are you talking? Like, I didn't understand it. And then, yeah, that's exactly what happened. It sort of did become that, and I love it. And I think the two things are bizarrely connected. I mean, art comes from the same place, and your brain, it just manifests differently.
- [05:03]
Kaitlyn Peterson
In 2008, Adam officially launched his firm. I wanted to talk to him about the hire who brought consistency to his firm's processes, how he developed boundaries to protect his professional relationships, and how he's looking at his firm's mission in a new light after the wildfires in Los Angeles.
- [05:22]
Unknown
Where did you look in the early days of your business for the structures and systems to really run and manage a design job.
- [05:31]
Adam Hunter
We learned very quickly that interior design has a very weird reputation with rich people. They all think we're out to scam them. They always, all the billionaires say they can't afford me, which is my favorite line. You know, there's some sort of trauma and there was. There were designers in Los Angeles who I would love to mention, but I'm not going to, in the early 90s who gave us a bad reputation because they would buy things at the Rose bowl flea Market for $30 and then add on three zeros and then that caught up with them. And when I started, it was about. We were being nailed by our wealthy clients about transparency. And I wasn't. Not transparent, but I didn't realize how big of a deal that actually was. So that was one of the things I would think that's extremely important to me. I'm always authentic and honest and open and transparent. Sometimes to a fault, I would say. But I think that that's kept me having a good reputation with integrity, which is really important.
- [06:29]
Unknown
What does transparency mean to you in the context of process, in the context of billing communication?
- [06:37]
Adam Hunter
I think the fact that I am an actor and a good communicator is my superpower as an interior designer. I feel like I know how to be malleable to different personalities and then I know how to be the gay best friend to my Brentwood housewives. And I don't mean that in a bitchy way. I have genuine relationships with some of these people. I have sung in their children's weddings or bar mitzvahs. You know, these are intense three year relationships. I cut my teeth on ground ups and that's all I've basically done. And it doesn't mean that I'm good or bad, it's just that I didn't know as much how to do someone's living room as a one off. Do you know what I mean?
- [07:16]
Unknown
Right. That wasn't where you learned.
- [07:18]
Adam Hunter
No, I learned how to get married to them very early on, you know. And then, you know, early, early on there were celebrities. Neil Patrick Harris and Travis Barker, Kay Somerville, Christina Hendricks. And these people had a certain privacy, you know. So you learn about that very quickly, especially as someone who is, like I said, a communicator. I probably err on the loudmouth side of things. So you learn to shut your mouth quickly. But it's a lot of on the job training.
- [07:47]
Unknown
How has the business evolved? What's changed most profoundly when you look at where you are today? Versus where you are then.
- [07:54]
Adam Hunter
I have had two ladies with me from three months into opening my door was one of them. And Kaylee came in maybe two years later. And they were the opposite of me in every way in the sense that they were both. We were all extremely creative, but they had much more. An eye for implementation, spreadsheets, project trackers, and we have basically built the rule book ourself. But when I bring in people from Michael Smith and Nicole Hollis and very reputable, wonderful designers, Ken folk, they all say, wow, this is really good. Because I didn't know. Right. We don't know. We don't also know what other designers charge. And I started something early on called design Dish. Oh, this is interesting. Maybe because as Broadway people, we are over communicative. We overshare everything, and if we don't get a job, we want our friend to get a job. So I go, hey, I tried out for this. I didn't get it, but you're perfect. You should go in. And interior design, especially when I started, it was the exact opposite.
- [08:57]
Unknown
I was gonna say that is only now I feel like just maybe starting to happen.
- [09:01]
Adam Hunter
And I gotta say, I was a real loudmouth about it. I went to Annette English and Aaron V. I can think of the people who I met with and said, let's get together and share upholsterers. Why does it hurt your business for us to be able to get the best vendors and for our trusted vendors to get more work? And it's energetically and karmically the right thing to do.
- [09:22]
Unknown
How was that received early on?
- [09:23]
Adam Hunter
Terribly.
- [09:24]
Unknown
Okay, that tracks us what I expected.
- [09:27]
Adam Hunter
Yeah, terribly. Because, like, I didn't know what I was doing because I wanted to approach things as. As a family. And by the way, my firm, people have been with me over a decade and some people 14 years because of that. I only knew how to run things like a Broadway dressing room. When you're doing eight shows a week with people for two years in a basement, it's like the army bunkers. You are each other's family better or worse. You might be different races, you might be different political views, but you're in it together.
- [09:59]
Unknown
Designing a project's not that different.
- [10:01]
Adam Hunter
Exactly. Right. Which is why I don't like remote. I built a big, beautiful office. We need to be together. We need to feel things and be tactile and talk to each other. You know what I mean? That's all part of the magic. And yes, I think zoom and stuff is great, but it doesn't. There's something that happens in the room that reminds me very much of being in the room in the theater.
- [10:24]
Unknown
Has it always been you +2 or how have you approached team building?
- [10:29]
Adam Hunter
It's always been me plus two. Now we have seven. In Covid, I had 17.
- [10:35]
Unknown
Whoa, let's talk about that.
- [10:36]
Adam Hunter
That was, you know, and I wasn't successful with it, to be totally honest. I had learned how to run a business pretty darn well. I had not learned how to scale a business. That is something that people, you know, should be very aware of that. That is a separate skill. And I would have consulted more people than I did. I think that would be my big lesson there. Covid was the biggest explosion for the interior design field that I'm aware of. And clients kept coming in. Great clients, people I would dream of. And you had to hire people. Hiring people is so difficult. I talk to a list designers all the time in chat rooms and threads. And we're all trying to help each other because people are. Especially in this environment, I would say hiring is the biggest challenge. So then to go from seven to 17 in a matter of three months.
- [11:30]
Unknown
What were you hiring for? Was it just more hands? Was it execution? Was it design?
- [11:35]
Adam Hunter
It was all the things. And by the way, I think that's inherently flawed. Another thing I'd like to tell people about interior design businesses, and I've talked to again, a lot of my peers who would say the same thing. You just end up chasing a bigger. Your tail, but in a bigger tail, you know what I mean? So you're not making. There's no more money to be made because your overhead gets bigger and bigger. There's no profit margin that changes and licensing deals are great, which I have and people have. But I've believe that people know how to get the designers by saying, look, we're going to put you in ad with your picture. And they're going to say, great, I'll take nothing. You know what I mean? But I didn't do it very well. I hired the wrong people. I hired a couple right people. It was extremely overwhelming. It became strictly about managing employees. I wasn't even managing clients anymore. I was. I was. I was sort of missing that.
- [12:24]
Unknown
Was it just sort of like, hi, it's your first day. Jump in on this project.
- [12:27]
Adam Hunter
Yes, it was. And by the way, clients hated that. By the way.
- [12:31]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [12:31]
Adam Hunter
Because they were like, no, no, I know. Adam, Danielle and Kaylee. Those are the three principles basically of the company. And both of those ladies do have a piece of my company right now, because of their extreme loyalty and good work, and their clients did not like that. And then a lot of them were bad, or a lot of them were won't do many things, won't do pretty basic things all the time. It's not true of everybody. But it was so much learning so quickly. I compared it to, like, the Matrix, like, when you get downloaded into your brain. And it was just swirling at me too fast, and it was sort of a mess. And I thought I always wanted to do it. I had three women in my life. This is going to sound so homosexual. You're going to kill me. But Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman was like my inspiration for everything. And then Barbra Streisand as a little Jewish boy to be on Broadway. And then Madame Kelly Werstler, believe it or not, who I've told many times, and I believe a lot of people feel this way. But what I loved about what she did is she had a theatricality. By the way, she was, of course, the person who I had never heard of, interior designer. So I heard of her first. And the way she did everything with her office and her branding and the way she treated the, quote, fabulousness of being an interior designer, which we all know isn't the truth necessarily.
- [13:50]
Unknown
Right? Yeah.
- [13:51]
Adam Hunter
But it's still a wonderful thing to aspire to. Was very much what I wanted to do. So she was at the rug company. I went to the rug company. She had her name in lights on Melrose. I had my name in lights on melrose. She had 17 people. I had 17 people. We both had books. You know what I mean? Like, I really did manifest model your career. Yeah, yeah, 100%. But until I realized I don't have a billionaire husband.
- [14:17]
Unknown
Fair.
- [14:17]
Adam Hunter
That is not to take away any of her incredible talent. She's magnificent. But people are in different economic statuses. So I was sort of throwing money out the window a little bit without great investments like real estate and hotel and things like that, which is what the part I didn't know.
- [14:33]
Unknown
Right.
- [14:33]
Adam Hunter
I was looking at the gloss, the frosting, and the smoke and mirrors, and I achieved that.
- [14:37]
Unknown
And.
- [14:37]
Adam Hunter
And suddenly I needed the 17 people in the projects to pay for the extremely oversized office. And I do think that that's an easy thing for some designers. I think. I've heard people say I'm a cautionary tale. And I'm okay with that, actually, in the sense that my ego as an actor, I actually don't have that much ego. Like with my clients, if they say they don't like a room. I'm so good with it. It's funny if you come after me about singing, then. Then I'll come after you. But. But as a designer, I'm totally, totally okay. But I do think the actor formed their designers have egos. We do. We really do. And mine was more about, you know, naming lights. That's what I wanted. I wanted.
- [15:21]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [15:22]
Adam Hunter
And I wanted to be a great designer. But of course, I know designers who are brilliant furniture purists. And I. And all those things. And I respect and I love those blue chip people. It's not me. I am more in it for the relationship, the magic, and making each person feel elevated in their homes. It's more about an energetic thing for me.
- [15:43]
Unknown
How long did you have those 17 employees? And what did you do the moment you realized, like, oh, I thought I wanted this. And I don't.
- [15:50]
Adam Hunter
You know, I'm not going to go into too much because it actually turns personal for me, but I would if you and I had a drink. But I will tell you that I didn't want to go to the office.
- [16:01]
Unknown
Was that. Was that a new feeling for you?
- [16:03]
Adam Hunter
I had never had that in my life. I walked in and I saw so many people at desks. I'll never forget. It was one specific day, and I thought, I don't even know three people's names like this. Again, I tell you, I'm going to run things like a family, right? And then suddenly the family was so big. Also, the dynamics change. They're all talking to each other about other employees. They're talking about me. It became like survivor a little bit. And I was like the king of never having that happen. We don't have that kind of drama. There's plenty of drama to be had in interior design, but I don't let the stupid stuff happen. But it did. It absolutely did. Because I couldn't control it. You know what I mean? I was like, you got what? What is happening? Like, be grown ups. Because I was used to these ladies who had just done their job so diligently, loyally, and well. And how did it happen? It slowly trimmed down, I would say now that I'm thinking about it, the projects trimmed down and the clients. But there's always that imbalance that we designers face, which is how many employees versus how many clients, because our projects are long. I don't think anyone's ever mastered that. I've talked to every designer I know, and you always have some. Some projects that stop early because I just lost three because The Palisades fires.
- [17:24]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [17:25]
Adam Hunter
And I had to let someone go. Just the way it is. I didn't want to, but now I understand it's the way it is. It used to take me down. It used to feel personal and very emotional. And now it's sort of like you look at numbers on a spreadsheet. It's like two plus two has to equal four.
- [17:41]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [17:42]
Adam Hunter
Doesn't make it any easier. It just makes it more easy to.
- [17:45]
Unknown
Understand what is sort of the range of team size then that feels comfortable for the volume of work you want today.
- [17:52]
Adam Hunter
7.
- [17:53]
Unknown
What are the essential roles on your team for you today?
- [17:57]
Adam Hunter
Danielle Asher is my again with me from 21 years old as an intern. She's now a 34 year old mother of twins. And I would say our aesthetic is identical. We formed so many things together. She finishes. My sentences were the exact opposite in every single way. Like I said, I'm a talker. She's not I'm vision, she's details. And they all think they want me in the beginning and after the first few meetings, they only want her, which is great with me. So I get to come in sometimes. And she is also considered a partner at this point. Kaylee Nichols is our wonderful operations person and was so important in finding out just by being scrappy through different firms, through talking to chat lines and online and group or whatever and figured out how to make project trackers and very important details. So clients are completely transparent. They sign off on things. There's a really good system. All boards look the same. There's a great uniformness to everything that makes it very clean and simple. Because as you know, it's sort of a messy process. So you need everything internally to be really strict. I would say those two and then senior designer, then just. I would say a regular designer. Yeah, you know what I mean? We used to call them intermediate and I didn't like that either. So now it's senior designer, designer, design assistant. That's the tier.
- [19:25]
Unknown
Is that design team then like doing their own procurement? Like you don't have a separate sort of project management team.
- [19:31]
Adam Hunter
I certainly did in the COVID time. I think we had three on procurement. Kaylee, who I said is the studio director now, always has eyes on procurement at the end of the day. Almost like Danielle and I checking the double, you know, crossing the T's and dotting the I's. But we do have one dedicated person to it.
- [19:51]
Kaitlyn Peterson
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- [20:04]
Unknown
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- [20:05]
Kaitlyn Peterson
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- [20:14]
Unknown
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- [20:17]
Kaitlyn Peterson
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- [20:29]
Unknown
Who sees clients, who's client facing on your firm, and how. How comfortable are you kind of sharing that relationship?
- [20:37]
Adam Hunter
There has been times where I didn't want to have anything to do with it, so I really was training people to be sort of that person. And what I'm learning is it's impossible almost to find someone who does all of the different things a designer needs to do. Now, I'm not talking about being a good designer. I'm talking about being empathetic, being. Having social cues, being able to read people selling, which is totally different than those things, managing their emotions, and most of all, being a leader and someone to look up to and a commanding presence. You'll never get. Let's say there are five traits. You'll never get all five. You'll get two out of five. But I have tried and hired and fired many people, great people from other firms who just. They didn't pass the test because my clients would tell me they weren't passing the test. Do you know what I mean? You have to be like an inspirer and a leader, but also like a really organized project manager. And I'm not a really organized project manager. That's why I have a team behind me. Yeah, I'm sort of a tornado in some ways, you know, which can be really good for vision and outreach and building the company, which is really what I want to do right now. That's the part that really thrills me.
- [21:52]
Unknown
Is that why you started bringing team members in into those relationships with clients?
- [21:57]
Adam Hunter
Yes. So I could do other things. I have a book coming out for Rizzoli. I've had a couple. I have a show for Apple tv. There's a lot of other. I thought of doing a furniture line, but I don't have a passion for it. I do have a really successful line at the rug company, which I'm super proud of and have for 10 years. And we have a new collection coming out. So I was thinking I wanted to do more of that. I've come full circle, and now I sort of love managing my clients and the relationship because it's. I find joy in being able to communicate that and you. It's a fine line between managing and selling because you have to sell things at the end of the day.
- [22:37]
Unknown
We'll talk about that. Because some people are. I think so many designers I talk to are uncomfortable with the selling part of the job.
- [22:43]
Adam Hunter
Yep, I'm great at it. Sorry. By the way, I don't think I'm great at everything. I think I'm 10 pounds overweight. I think, like, I'm short. I mean, I know what I'm not good at. There are better designers for sure than me. I mean, I think I'm good, but I think there are way better designers. But I do do some things better. And I think that's either just because the way I was raised or because of my theater background.
- [23:04]
Unknown
How do you talk to clients about product?
- [23:07]
Adam Hunter
It's just a general enthusiasm. If I get so excited about things, and again, I get very excited, it's a little bit contagious. I've been. And they'll feel it, but I'll always give them options because, again, I'm not from that school in the 90s where you sell them. The more expensive table, to me, the more expensive markup. We'll show you three different tables at three different price points. We just love the one so much that you can feel it. And a lot of times that feeling is what sells it.
- [23:36]
Unknown
How do you. I'm going to back up, actually, maybe a little bit. How do you talk to clients about money?
- [23:40]
Adam Hunter
Now we have rates, and I. Kailee, the studio director, talks to them about money. Or I also have an outside business manager who comes in for the big, big, big ones when you're talking about over a million dollars. And I have this design dish with all my friends in the area, and we're all sort of charging. Shannon Wallach of Studio Lifestyle and I talked about unionizing interior designers in a way, especially with the Palisades fires, so they can't do what they do, which is. Well, Shannon's charging less than you are, which people do all the time. I don't know why you don't go negotiate with your doctor. You don't negotiate with your real estate broker. But we are up for negotiation like car salesmen. And it's very frustrating and I'm very emotional, but I've learned to not be emotional about it. It's totally fine now. I'm sort of like, I get it if you can't do it. Sorry. My overhead has to be paid a certain way. I think the way interior designers charge in general is broken and I've been waiting for someone to come up with a better idea. I think we all have and no one has, because you either do the square foot, your design fee plus a markup, right, 35% markup, or you do the design fees, which we would all prefer, but those are always over a million dollars. Even though it all rinses out after a three year project, you're just cutting up your food differently. It's the same amount of money, but you have to psychologically feel your clients. So you said, how do you talk to them about money? You get some cues pretty early on of how they respond to things. Sometimes I'll drop in numbers in a conversation. Like, I'll be like, yeah, well, if a chair is $15,000, some clients will go $15,000 and some clients will say, yes, you know what I mean? And then you're going to be like, okay, so they know, they don't know. So you got to educate a certain way. Of course, we all want to give to the billionaires who just say, yes, of course, $15,000 for a chair. I'll take three. But it's usually the people who are, you know, they still have many millions of dollars, but they've made their many millions of dollars being extremely careful about money, unlike me, who just knows how to bring it in and spend it. I mean, spend it.
- [25:44]
Unknown
Where do you take that? You've dropped that sort of like $15,000 chair into the conversation. Where do you go from there? How are you outlining your fees, what their all in cost will be, and actually how do you get to that all in cost?
- [26:00]
Adam Hunter
I'm going to tell you our structure. We have an hourly rate. Steve Gianetti, who's the architect that I cut my teeth with, is a wonderful architect and a couple other people I know in the business. Actually, I've learned this from a lot of business owners as of late. The big people do hourly, period. The end. That's what it is, hourly. And it makes sense because when we sign projects for two years or three years, they're always three years and four years. They're never what they are, right? And the one thing, if I could say to anybody that I've learned is clients will pay your fee for the two years. Let's say it's $300,000 for the two years, excluding the procurement. The minute that two years is up and you have to send your hourly, which comes out to, let's say, 10,000amonth, they lose their shit. Because, and I understand why psychologically they have Spent millions of dollars and seen no result. So all they do for you is spend $2 million, and all they've had is dust. They can't live there. They're.
- [26:57]
Unknown
And now you have the audacity to send them an hourly bill.
- [27:00]
Adam Hunter
And the trigger is so profound that if any designer is listening to this, figure out a way around it. You know, if you track things and give them a lot of time, like within every couple of months, be like, you're this much in. You're this much in. So when I didn't do that in the beginning, I would just say, okay, your project's up. Give me ten grand a month from here on in. And that would just. And literally they would say no, and I just wouldn't get it. Like, there was no compromising. It was lose the project or continue. So now we try to, like, be very scheduled about it and give them updates. But again, if you do hourly, it never. That doesn't happen. There's no shift lawyers. It's hourly. It is the way it is. But again, ours is so flexible. Everyone does something different. So that sort of leads the idea that it can be bent. You know, you can be malleable because everyone else is.
- [27:55]
Unknown
Well, I think what's interesting is that you're giving clients a choice.
- [27:58]
Adam Hunter
Always they get three options. Hourly, flat fee or design plus markup. We actually. We call them architecturals. The design fee.
- [28:06]
Unknown
Wait, design plus markup.
- [28:07]
Kaitlyn Peterson
You're.
- [28:08]
Unknown
Aren't you charging a markup anyway?
- [28:11]
Adam Hunter
Yes.
- [28:12]
Unknown
Is it a bigger markup if they go that route?
- [28:15]
Adam Hunter
No, no, the markup is always the same. What I meant by design fee, what we call design fee, some people call architecturals, which actually is a little clearer. And that means all the millwork and the floor and the finishes and the exterior and the part that I love to do in the house, the stone, stuff like that. And then the FF and E is the procurement. Yeah.
- [28:38]
Unknown
Is there one or the other that gets picked more often?
- [28:41]
Adam Hunter
Always the cheaper one.
- [28:43]
Unknown
The cheaper in the moment.
- [28:44]
Adam Hunter
Oh, sorry. The cheaper in the moment. That's exactly right. See, even I did it right. Always the. Always the lesser number up front. Now, we've had a couple really successful ones, because when you are into the bigger meaning, like the number that you say up front, over a year or two, they're not thinking about it anymore. Their business manager is wiring the retainer, and you're always available. It's very clean.
- [29:08]
Unknown
Is there one or the other? Or does a client choosing to work with your firm in one way or another change the energy of the job in any way?
- [29:20]
Adam Hunter
Completely. I mean, yes. It totally depended. I have a good human rule. It's in my contract. When I first started, I got sued by a crazy client who had. I was his fourth designer that he'd hired, fired, and sued.
- [29:32]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Okay.
- [29:33]
Adam Hunter
So it was sport for him, and it traumatized me. And I almost quit the business very early on because I just. It wasn't worth this guy. And I realized it's just easier when it's cleaner.
- [29:44]
Unknown
Okay.
- [29:45]
Adam Hunter
Because you as the designer know that when your fee is going to be up and the contractor isn't ready, which is 100% of the time, you have to go to that trapdoor and pay the $10,000. After that guy, I put a thing in being like, I'll set my boundaries. You're not going to call me at night on a Saturday or whatever, but you have to be a good human. I just can't take yelling or irrational in any sense. Everything has to be extremely logical. And people have a lot of pathology around money. A lot.
- [30:16]
Unknown
Are you looking to kind of root that out early in the client vetting process or how are you deciding what jobs to say yes to?
- [30:22]
Adam Hunter
You can tell early on. Like, even in the. In the interviewing process, you can tell. They will say, certain architects they've worked with, and then you're like, oh, we're safe, we're good. Certain previous designers that they've worked with.
- [30:34]
Unknown
Is designer hopping a red flag for you?
- [30:37]
Adam Hunter
100%. And I will always say that to a client, including the guy. All those years ago, I said, if I'm your fourth designer, I said this quote, there's something about. There's something wrong with you. And he said, it is why I took the job. You're right.
- [30:52]
Unknown
Oh, okay. He knew.
- [30:55]
Adam Hunter
Yes. And his self awareness gave me security. Right. I thought, okay, this guy has a shit together. He's aware. He knows. So I'm going to be able to have a logical conversation with him. Too bad. That was not true. And in the end, the judge said, adam has given you all that you want. He didn't do anything wrong. What do you. Why are you continuing this? He said, because I want to ruin his 40s.
- [31:18]
Unknown
Oh, God.
- [31:19]
Adam Hunter
So when he said that, I won.
- [31:21]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [31:22]
Adam Hunter
But it still cost me $220,000, which was more money than I'd ever heard of in my life. And fees. Yeah, yeah. So then you correct your contract and you go to a lawyer. That's what I mean. It's so much for me. It's a lot of learning things the hard way.
- [31:36]
Unknown
Tell me more about vetting clients.
- [31:39]
Adam Hunter
We were going to work on an Olson Kundig project who are great architects. I was super excited to work with them, and they were excited as well. And the client came back, and she just. She was talking about, if we do the bathroom with tile, but then do the hardware here, will that save $2? And I was like, you're working with Olson and Kundik, and you're asking me that? I was like, that doesn't match up, like, automatically. I thought, oh, you're a green light. Because you know what? Because I know their fees and you know what things are going to cost.
- [32:05]
Unknown
And they've slipped through. They've made it through their filter already.
- [32:08]
Adam Hunter
Correct. They're already working with them. And. And I definitely remember thinking it was a beautiful ground up in Seattle on the water. It would have been amazing. And the ladies who have been with me all these years were like, are you sure we want to say yes? No. And I was like, yes. I feel really good about saying no. You know, you get to the point where you don't realize you also get older and you process things differently, and you're like, wow. I just know instinctively and through some hard lessons that that wasn't the right thing to do.
- [32:36]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [32:36]
Adam Hunter
Another red flag. They're talking about bringing all their own stuff. Another red flag. Can I put markup on Markups on this? But not things that I find myself. Discussions about art. When you get so into the pixels of the money, there's. That's a flag. Oh, another code thing I will drop a lot. Is restoration hardware. Because rich people want you to put restoration hardware in their guest bedrooms. That makes them feel like what regular people would think of as living spaces. Right. And I don't. I think I'm in the middle. I don't think I'm either one of those people. But if we put restoration. And my reaction to that is, A, also like, hey, Gary Friedman's made those prices not far from our prices, A and B. Yes, of course we will. If they're saying they want to put Restoration Hardware in a guest room, that's a green flag. That means they know that Holly Hunt is going in the living room.
- [33:29]
Unknown
Okay. When you look at the business you've built, what part of running your firm has tested you the most as an entrepreneur?
- [33:37]
Adam Hunter
I know. Exactly. Not being emotional. As someone who is so emotional. I mean, you can probably all hear my voice. I am emotional, and I've become great at it.
- [33:51]
Unknown
Yeah. What did that require I would say.
- [33:53]
Adam Hunter
It'S like working any muscle to a point, you get better at it. I would say I've been in therapy my whole life. My sister's a psychiatrist. I would say, like I said, I'm a good communicator. So I over talk a lot of times and I over talk with clients and employees and it's been successful. But again, that's a personality trait that I have. I do think it's a muscle that you learn to work. Just like dating. I'm dating again and that's a different muscle to work. And it's amazing. I did have something crop up yesterday from a long term collaborator and I thought what they offered was such a grind and it was so insulting that I had to call my, what I call my board of directors who is my brother in law and my best friend, both really successful business people. And I was like, okay, my heart's in my throat. I had to step out of a meeting, I'm really mad, I'm sweating. And they were like, wow, we haven't heard you like this in years. And I was like, well, it's good. I'm glad you haven't heard me like this in years. And within an hour of not being reactive, I was able to look at it and within a couple hours I was able to reply and say here are the actionable steps and basically we're going to pass on the project. Even though it's stupendously incredible client. A lot of times successful people, especially with celebrities, will use that to do things for free. I've had many of them.
- [35:09]
Unknown
Well, can we talk a little bit about that? You said something early on about, you know, navigating clients who value privacy and I thought that was really interesting. How is your work different because of the notoriety of the clientele you often have?
- [35:27]
Adam Hunter
Well, it depends on whether or not they want free shit. Doesn't that sound so horrible?
- [35:36]
Unknown
It sounds so honest.
- [35:37]
Adam Hunter
It's very. I've learned again, 15 years later, this is the truth. I am more in the hedge fund area. There's a different perspective when you're talking about a $15,000 chair. Just is. It's facts. But I think that I wish I could name her a very famous celebrity I have who certainly does not need the money. Billionaire heiress and is just used to things being done for free. And at the end of the day I did a beautiful design and I think it was a matter of me charging them $50,000 for like two years like that. That little. And someone else would do it for free. So they went with them. So I do think that's true of celebrities. I do think if you get them, make sure you lock them into what you need, you know, make that relationship work for you. And then I was with my dear friend Vanessa Alexander, who's a designer that I love last week, and she was saying she can't publish anything. And I'm certainly in that thing too. We work so hard on these beautiful pieces of art and we convey to our clients at the very beginning. You don't understand that the pictures are your gift to us. We want to work harder because we want the record of our hard work. Not just that we love you, not just that we have integrity and we'll do a good job. That's expected. But there might be an extra five points in there for you if you let us do that. And sometimes they will understand that, and oftentimes they won't. Oftentimes it's a non starter because how are you supposed to get more work without being able to show your work?
- [37:10]
Unknown
Is it a good referral business? Is that sort of insular circle of influential people? Does that generate referrals in a way that is meaningful enough to overcome?
- [37:19]
Adam Hunter
Not publishing with those people, yes. With celebrities, no. You're going to then be known as the guy who will do stuff for free to get into ad. And I know plenty of those people, too. And I've talked to them, and they're resentful. Yeah, they don't want to be. They say, I made this choice. This was my decision.
- [37:36]
Unknown
But then you get more jobs like that.
- [37:39]
Adam Hunter
Correct. You're attracting that.
- [37:40]
Unknown
That's really interesting. How do you get off that train?
- [37:43]
Adam Hunter
I remember with this person I'm telling you about, I had to make that decision. $50,000 was all it would have cost me, which was not a lot of money for my $2 million overhead a year, you know, But I said, no, we got to stop the bleeding. I don't want this to get around to so and so and say, hey, I heard you'll do this for free. And I've been in that circle. I did that at one point.
- [38:06]
Kaitlyn Peterson
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- [38:34]
Unknown
I've talked to so many designers who want a celebrity client. What would you tell them?
- [38:42]
Adam Hunter
I would consider that it is a transactional relationship. And they're coming to you because it just happened to be on Instagram. A great celebrity came to me. We talked for a while, and they basically were like, will you do it for pr? And I was like, you know what? Right now I can't. In the future. In the future, maybe. And in the past, maybe. But right now I got to pay bills. So you just have to be really cognizant of that, you know, and then boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Because celebrities don't have any. They'll call you in the middle of the night, yelling about their coffee table when they're really mad at their partner, but they're going to do the transference about you and the table that you scratched.
- [39:26]
Unknown
What has your approach to setting boundaries been?
- [39:28]
Adam Hunter
I had to learn. I was boundary less. And I prided myself on being boundaryless again. That's the theater. We're overly honest. We're a bunch of drama queens. But we're also magical and authentic. There's so much good and so much bad in that relationship. And it's so opposite an interior design relationship. And I would admire people like Miranda Priestly, the Devil Wears Prada, because she didn't care what people's feelings thought. And she would just say, that's all. Get out. You know, that's all. And I was the opposite of that. I would qualify everything. Do you love me? Do you love me? I'm sorry. Here it is. Blah, blah, blah. You could call me. It's okay. And while I'm not at all near. That's all. I'm definitely. I'm sorry, we can't make that work. And there's no follow up with I hope you still love me. Even a couple years ago, I probably would have put in, I'm sorry, we can't make that work. I hope you still love me. So it ends with a little energetic kiss.
- [40:22]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [40:23]
Adam Hunter
And you know what I'm learning? That people respect you more when you don't.
- [40:27]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [40:27]
Adam Hunter
But again, it goes against my nature. I have to literally think, don't do it.
- [40:32]
Unknown
What are the most important boundaries that you've established for yourself?
- [40:37]
Adam Hunter
We are dark on the weekends. I don't bother my girls on the weekends either. You know what I mean? Or. Or a gentleman who work here. Whatever. Life is more important than anything else. Health is more important than. I'm a doctor's son, you know, like perspective. I'm really good at perspective. So when I'm in their house and the wife is freaking out about a tile. I'm like, I feel so sorry for you and your $40 million house on the beach lady. And I'll say it just like that.
- [41:01]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:02]
Adam Hunter
And you know what? Boom. She changes. Oh, my God. Thank you. Or she'll just even not thank you, even. She'll just smirk like, okay, I hear you fine. I needed to check myself. I think humor. I think I've been able to do a lot of stuff through humor. Maybe it's a manipulation. I do think I have a sense of humor and I've raised my company to have a sense of humor. And my clients are often comedians and great people in that sense. I think, again, you attract certain people. If there's a client who wants the bitchy guy who comes in and doesn't like, says, no, no, it's wrong. And there are, there are those clients. They don't want me. They don't want me. I know who they want. And I respect those guys who can stand in their own way and not feel like they have to people, please. I just won't be that guy. But I also offer a really loving, supportive environment for long term relationships in multiple homes.
- [42:01]
Unknown
Wait, I want more. One more boundary. You said dark on the weekends.
- [42:05]
Adam Hunter
Oh, good. Human rule. Absolutely no swearing. Absolutely no yelling. If you do, I will walk out of the room.
- [42:12]
Unknown
Will you end the relationship right away or is it more about just saying, like, I won't tolerate this behavior.
- [42:18]
Adam Hunter
I will one time I won't. And then I'm going to get an apology, text, phone call, or email that I actually believe, and then I'll continue. And if it happens one more time, we're done. Yeah, I have a very strict policy, and if the project isn't good enough or isn't really doing anything for us financially, I will walk. In the beginning.
- [42:36]
Unknown
We talk a lot on this show about how a principal's role evolves as. As their firm grows and changes. How are you thinking about the work you want to be doing next?
- [42:48]
Adam Hunter
The Palisades burned down, and while it was still on fire, I started something out of. I don't know how it happened. It just happened quickly because I didn't want. I thought I'd either go to bed for the rest of my life or, like, work through it. I was living in the process. I started a foundation called La can do, which is creatives aid in natural disasters. And we raised $5 million of free furnishings in eight weeks. And we gave all people brand new furnishings for their homes. And it was really fulfilling and lovely. I didn't get to everybody. Some people are mad at me. A lot of trial and error again. But I think the overall was a net positive. And at the same time I thought of the nonprofit, I thought of a for profit. And I realized that I want to move into developing and I want to develop the Palisades. I lived there, I healed there. The Palisades is not for rich people. I thought it was. My sister lived there 25 years and I only knew a certain kind of the Palisades. But after I lived there for some healing that I needed to do emotionally for two years, I realized that half of those people were just regular people. And it was the most home I'd ever felt in my life since the west village, since West 12th Street, I felt it Winnetka, West 12th street, and then the Palisades. Never in West Hollywood, where I'm currently living again after 18 years. So I am potentially working with an amazing human, incredible developer, sort of the mayor of the city in some ways. And I can't say who it is yet, but I'm really excited because I reached out to Richard Landry and William Hefner and friends of mine who are wonderful architects. And I put together a small collective of people to basically do semi custom homes that are up and they're for people who didn't want to lose their homes. There's an area of the Palisades that's called the Huntington Palisades where I mostly work, which are the $20 million up homes. That's the Alphabet streets and those are more of the $3.5 million homes. And those are the people who are in their grandfather's homes and can't afford it and don't want an Adam Hunter home. That's not interesting to them. I just want to give them a home. And at 50 and going through, I'm recently sober of a couple years. I just feels like there's more meaning in that. And I can take what I've learned as a communicator, as a therapist, as a Broadway guy, as a salesman and as a designer and that this is what I was meant to do.
- [45:08]
Unknown
What does that mean for your design business?
- [45:11]
Adam Hunter
Someone wanted to buy it. I almost sold it last week. Not kidding. Isn't that funny?
- [45:17]
Unknown
That's wild.
- [45:18]
Adam Hunter
The staging company wanted to buy it. And my design business will then hopefully be able to be still run by me, more run by Danielle, and take on the long term clients that we love, that we value, that we Want to be with where they're fun relationships and we're traveling to cool places or just generally spending time with people we like, making things pretty. The other business is much more about contracting real estate developers and an infrastructure that I don't have and I don't want to learn. So that's why I want to partner with this person, because he has all this infrastructure and developing and knows how to do it. But what I do have is a vision. I have the connections and I want to make sure that the Palisades stay the Palisades, which is a little sleepy and a little Mayberry, if you're old enough to know that reference. And not Beverly park, where I have clients that live, and not Lamborghinis in Beverly Hills and not Newport Beach. It has to stay that way. And that's what I feel sort of a calling to do. And I hope it can be profitable. You know what I mean? I think there's a chance that it could be much more profitable than I told you, than designers who are chasing their tails with fee markup, overhead and employees.
- [46:30]
Unknown
What is the biggest hurdle to keeping the Palisades?
- [46:35]
Adam Hunter
You know, as they were, the numbers. So there's a mansion tax in the Palisades, where you go over 5 million, you got to pay 1 million. The original homes that were there in the Alphabet street sold for $3.5 million all in. But that's because the land was bought 40 years ago for $300,000. Now that there's nothing left, the land is $2.5 million. So let's say you build a house for $3 million, which is almost impossible in this area. You're still over 5 million. Then the mansion tax kicks in. So that's why I needed somebody connected to the city, someone who was able to all. You know, we might be getting rid of the mansion tax. It might be happening because just like there's a lot of innovation happening with AI helping permits get expedited. My vision for the palette New Palisades is the smart city of the future. A totally fireproof city with green roofs and things. So of course, it's this really tricky thing of wanting to keep it quaint, but it's going to cost money, right? But I don't know why I feel like called. I really do. I really, really do. But no, I've started to love my business again a little bit. You go through phases, by the way, if people listen to this, there are times that you hate it. I hated it. 23 and 24. Oh, my God. I didn't do.
- [47:52]
Unknown
What changed?
- [47:53]
Adam Hunter
I think personal things in my life, okay. I think where I, where I was personally where I was in my relationship with myself, with my relationship to my.
- [48:01]
Unknown
Friends didn't line up with what the business needed.
- [48:03]
Adam Hunter
No. And I was really, really resentful against people who had the money that I felt like I should have for no reason. Why should I have it? I wasn't born into it or I didn't. Well, I wasn't a hedge fund guy. I was. I was being completely entitled and lost sight of the creativity. And I think that's so super easy to do when you're depressed. And I have been depressed often at points in my life. That's the first thing that goes. That and your sex drive out the window. You don't want to do either thing. You know what I mean? You just want to isolate and be. And I was almost. There were points last couple years where I was like, please don't ask me about a chair. Please just don't ask me. I don't want to know. Ask me about anything else. And now I'm moving into my own new place that I just am finishing and it's my favorite thing I've ever done. And it's woken me up again. And I think there's a lot of new energy around the Palisades build back again because I've been a Palisades designer for so long that everything feels a little reinvigorated now. Of course, we live in a scary tariff bizarre world. So that also plays into this stuff. Insurance companies play into the Palisade stuff. Insurance companies are saying they don't want to pay. And so the company that we're building might actually bring on an insurance company and a bank. So it's an all in one stop shop. But you know what's exciting to me about this as we maybe close soon or whatever, is that the business part. I feel excited as a businessman to learn things I've never Learned at age 50 about. I don't want to learn too much because my brain, it's not my brain, but I want to learn about real estate and permitting and why things are a certain way. I don't want to get into the codes, but I'd like to know why things have to be a certain way and what I can do creatively to value engineer it a bit to make it work. How can you make it pretty without having to put in porcelain tile?
- [49:52]
Unknown
Is the sustainability piece and kind of the fireproofing piece an interesting challenge as well?
- [49:56]
Adam Hunter
Yes. But that part's sort of thrilling. People are coming up with things minute by minute of ways to do that. But the initial thing in January, February, when this was happening was like, we're going to build a concrete city. And I was like, no, we are fucking not. You know what I mean?
- [50:11]
Unknown
Right.
- [50:12]
Adam Hunter
You might want to do that. That's fine. But we're going to put cedar shake on the outside, so if it burns, it's the skin that burns, not the inside. But no, we're not making a bunch of adobe homes. Sorry.
- [50:22]
Unknown
Right, right. Oh, that's amazing. When you look back at your career, what is the one thing you know now that you wish you had known from the beginning?
- [50:34]
Adam Hunter
I think it's ignore the imposter syndrome. How's that as an answer? Ignore the imposter syndrome. Because the first decade of this, I identified as a singer, and now I identify as a singer, as a human being, and, like, as a gay guy or as a Jew, as a human being. But I identify as a designer for my career. It's a more of. This is such a douchey word, but visionary. With the Palisades, I have this. It's more of a vision than a design.
- [51:00]
Unknown
That's amazing. Did it feel different to be in your career when you finally said, oh, this is who I am? Professionally?
- [51:09]
Adam Hunter
Yes. It sounds so trite, but it was probably when AD did my home. I remember being like, just a few years into my career. I remember being like, well, this is sort of like a Tony nomination. You know, this is sort of something you could qualify. I think the first thing was also my. I'm really proud of my rug company deal. When I started 10 years ago, there was just me, Kelly Werstler, and McQueen and like, a very few people now. Now it's opened up a bit, but it felt like I was really proud to be in that club creatively because it didn't have to do with my personality. It didn't have to do with my singing, my charm, my humor. It just had to do with the work. And if I could do anything in my life now, I just want people to look at the work. But I do think my superpower as a business owner is me as a human.
- [51:58]
Unknown
What does success look like for you today?
- [52:01]
Adam Hunter
Financial freedom. I don't need to be as rich as these people that I work for, because I thought I did. But I don't want to worry anymore. And I've worried my whole life. Again, I grew up with probably some Jewish pathology in Chicago, and then I was a check to check actor in New York for 10 years and then I was an intern and then I was scrappy building a business. And then it, it flows sometimes and it doesn't flow sometimes. And I think that's true of every interior designer. Even different price points, you know, you're up and you're down. So I would love to not worry most. I would love to be in love. I haven't been in love in a long time. That would be most successful to me. But happiness and peace and serenity I've sort of I'm getting for the first time. And I really think sobriety has a lot to do with that. I can't believe I'm saying that out loud, but it's so true for me.
- [52:52]
Unknown
That's amazing.
- [52:54]
Adam Hunter
Yeah, it's been really great and it's informed how I run my business, too. I find myself being more secure, more honest with people, honest with myself and love and not worrying about money would be great.
- [53:10]
Kaitlyn Peterson
That's our show for today.
- [53:11]
Unknown
Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, check out new products or browse the job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show.
- [53:27]
Kaitlyn Peterson
If you have a note for the.
- [53:28]
Unknown
Show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@trade talesusofhome.com.
- [53:37]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn.
- [53:39]
Unknown
Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda.
- [53:45]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson.
- [53:48]
Unknown
Thanks again for listening and I'll see.
- [53:50]
Kaitlyn Peterson
You back here next week.