How eliminating a markup has fueled Bella Mancini’s creativity

Summary

Trade Tales: How Eliminating a Markup Has Fueled Bella Mancini’s Creativity

Episode Release Date: May 21, 2025

Host: Kaitlin Petersen, Editor-in-Chief of Business of Home

In this insightful episode of Trade Tales, Kaitlin Petersen sits down with renowned interior designer Bella Mancini to explore how a pivotal shift in her business model—eliminating traditional markups—has not only stabilized her firm's financial footing but also unlocked new levels of creativity. Below is a detailed summary of their engaging conversation, complete with notable quotes and timestamps.

---

1. Bella Mancini’s Journey into Interior Design

Bella Mancini shares her unconventional path to becoming an interior designer, highlighting the challenges and serendipitous moments that led her to the profession.

• Transition from Fashion to Design:

  [02:43] Bella Mancini: "Most designers are thinking about design like 90% of their day, so I really hated the fact that I felt like we were losing time."
  [03:16] Caitlin Peterson: "I had a boss who was, like, not awesome. And one day, I just had enough. I walked out of the office one day, and I was like, I quit."

• Taking the Leap:

  [03:44] Bella Mancini: "Make your favorite hobby a career. Like, if you can do that, you've, like, struck gold."

2. Early Business Growth and Recognition

Bella discusses the formative years of her design firm, the initial success, and the role of early press in establishing her reputation.

• Building the Firm:

  [05:22] Bella Mancini: "We got our first interior design client with a $5,000 budget."

• First Media Feature:

  [05:33] Caitlin Peterson: "She wrote the first piece of press about us in New York magazine that year."

• Establishing Clientele:

  [07:08] Bella Mancini: "I started getting really serious about the kinds of staff members I was looking for. I got pretty clear about what kind of clients that we wanted."

3. The Impact of the Pandemic

The conversation delves into how the COVID-19 pandemic severely affected Bella's business, forcing her to make difficult decisions and rethink her strategies.

• Pandemic Challenges:

  [19:21] Bella Mancini: "The pandemic, wow, that was fun."
  [19:57] Bella Mancini: "As embarrassing as it is to admit, I did not have good cash reserves."

• Personal Struggles:

  [20:03] Caitlin Peterson: "I... had to lay off pretty much everybody but her."

4. Overhauling the Business Model: Eliminating Markup

Bella explains the critical decision to eliminate traditional markups and adopt a flat fee plus production fee model, guided by business coach Sean Lowe.

• Consulting with Sean Lowe:

  [24:16] Bella Mancini: "Sean helped me completely rework the way we build, the way I thought about my business, about knowing my value."

• Transitioning Billing Practices:

  [24:35] Caitlin Peterson: "He helped me, like, completely rework the way we build, the way I thought about my business."

5. Benefits of the New Billing Model

The new flat fee plus production fee structure has transformed Bella’s approach to client interactions and project management, fostering transparency and trust.

• Freedom and Clarity:

  [27:27] Bella Mancini: "I felt like we were losing time... but I also felt like I hated the fact that I was being nickel and dimey with people."
  [27:55] Caitlin Peterson: "We also charge what we call a production fee, and that is instead of a markup fee."

• Client Relationships:

  [30:32] Bella Mancini: "What it's going to cost... I can put together a really strong budget for them right at the get-go."

6. Team Structure and Roles

Bella highlights the importance of a dedicated and cohesive team, detailing the roles of key members and how they contribute to the firm's success.

• Key Team Members:

  [34:20] Bella Mancini: "Kat is our phenomenal production person."
  [35:03] Caitlin Peterson: "She really runs the projects in terms of the timelines."

• Collaborative Environment:

  [37:41] Caitlin Peterson: "We are able to make sure that everybody's doing what's in their zone of genius."

7. Employee Growth and Development

Bella emphasizes fostering a supportive and inspiring work environment to ensure team satisfaction and professional growth.

• Encouraging Inspiration:

  [40:07] Caitlin Peterson: "I encourage them to get out often. We've been to Milan together and sent team members to design events."

• Creating a Positive Workplace:

  [41:17] Bella Mancini: "We all like each other a lot. We're genuinely friends in our office."

8. Reflections and Advice

In wrapping up, Bella offers valuable advice to fellow designers on financial management, billing models, and maintaining authentic client relationships.

• Financial Prudence:

  [45:25] Bella Mancini: "I wish I had started a 401k earlier."
  [46:08] Caitlin Peterson: "I wish that I had socked away the six months of emergency fund that everybody should have."

• Authentic Relationships:

  [47:02] Bella Mancini: "I have zero aspirations to have my name on a product... I just want to do great work and make people super happy with the homes we designed."

Conclusion

Through strategic financial restructuring and a focus on authentic client relationships, Bella Mancini has successfully navigated her interior design firm through turbulent times, emerging stronger and more creative. Her story offers invaluable lessons on resilience, adaptability, and the importance of aligning business practices with personal values.

Notable Quotes:

• "[27:34] Bella Mancini: I just didn't want to do that. And working on a flat fee, it frees me up to just think about it whenever I want, however I want."
• "[30:32] Bella Mancini: I can tell them right away what it's going to cost. I know exactly what it's going to take, how many months it's going to take, what it's going to cost, and I'm able to put together a really strong budget for them right at the get-go."
• "[49:16] Bella Mancini: I just want to keep making beautiful homes for really nice people. I have really super, super lovely clients. And that feels pretty darn successful, I have to say."

For more inspiring stories and industry insights, tune into Trade Tales each week on Business of Home and follow Kaitlin Petersen for the latest in interior design trends and business strategies.

Transcript

[Bella Mancini]

Most designers are thinking about design like.

[Caitlin Peterson]

90% of their day, so I really.

[Bella Mancini]

Hated the fact that I felt like we were losing time.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But then I also felt like I hated the fact that I was being nickel and dimey with people and working.

[Bella Mancini]

On a flat fee. It frees me up to just think.

[Caitlin Peterson]

About it whenever I want, however I want.

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season seven of the show, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea, or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer whose firm was flying high for nearly two decades when the pandemic hit, suddenly shattering her project pipeline with with a bit of outside help, she's embarked on an overhaul of her systems and ultimately built back a business that's prepared for whatever comes next. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is brought to you by Dallas Market center, the largest and most active open daily design marketplace in North America. Designers can source from thousands of top brands across home decor, furniture, lighting and more any day of the week, and friendly showroom staff help elevate your design business in a marketplace that's ready when you are design professionals. Discover what's new, what's next, and what works in Dallas. Visit DallasMarketCenter.com to learn more about home and design resources as well as upcoming design events and markets. This podcast is also sponsored by the Crate and Barrel trade program Designers if you if you haven't joined yet, it's time to check it out. You'll get access to beautiful, high quality furniture and decor from three design driven brands, Crate and Barrel, CB2 and Kraton Kids right at your fingertips. Plus, there's a dedicated concierge team to support your projects. From concept to flawless installation, members get an exclusive 20% discount with no minimum purchase. Join today@ CrateAndBarrel.com trade to start enjoying all the perks this program has to offer.

I had no idea that I would have a future in interior design. When I was growing up I went to college and I studied clothing and textiles. But I moved to New York with a dream. I wanted to actually work in fashion publishing and I thought that you Just called Vogue, and you got a job because you were, like, smart and eager, and it turns out that's not how works. So I was, like, temping and having fun. And then I got really serious. I ended up working for a marketing.

[Bella Mancini]

And advertising, a small agency.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I had a boss who was, like, not awesome. And one day, I just had enough. I walked out of the office one day, and I was like, I quit. I called my best friend, and she happened to work for Waterworks. We met at the White Horse Tavern, and I was, like, sobbing into my glass, and I'm like, what am I gonna do with. I thought about my dad, who was an entrepreneur, and he said, you should.

[Bella Mancini]

Make your favorite hobby a career. Like, if you can do that, you've, like, struck gold.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I was like, how do I get into interior design?

That's Bella Mancini. And as it turned out, she was in luck. One of her friends designer clients was in the market for a new assistant.

I was introduced to a woman named Ellen Hamilton.

[Bella Mancini]

I have no idea why she hired me.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I had no business being anybody's interior design assistant, but she did. And what I learned to do, which was probably the most important lesson, was I learned how to run a business.

[Bella Mancini]

She was very generous with me, and.

[Caitlin Peterson]

She'S like, if you're going to work in interior design, you need to learn how to draft. So I signed up for classes at the New York School of Interior Design. I learned to hand draw. I just kind of poured myself into it in my spare time.

While Bella nurtured her design skills, she also began hosting elaborate dinner parties with a friend who worked in event planning. Before long, the pair realized that they were on the verge of something big.

We had this idea that we wanted to bring great, gracious living to people our age, marrying this world of events with interiors and creating these beautiful dinner parties. And so we were like, let's start a business. Like, how hard could it be? And eventually, I did leave my job with Ellen to start this business with Alyssa. You have to understand that this is the time of the dot com boom.

[Bella Mancini]

There was young kids with funny money around the city.

[Caitlin Peterson]

We were hired by these dot com millionaires to throw parties. We were making them look beautiful.

[Bella Mancini]

We got our first interior design client.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Was a friend of ours, and we.

[Bella Mancini]

Had a $5,000 budget.

[Caitlin Peterson]

We really hustled around that same time. We somehow got in touch with the.

[Bella Mancini]

Very great Wendy Goodman.

[Caitlin Peterson]

She wrote the first piece of press about us in New York magazine that year. I think it must have been the fall of 2000, the year our was born.

By 2005, Bella's business partner moved abroad, and she became the sole owner of the design firm. I wanted to talk to her about the business coach who overhauled the firm's processes, why it's crucial that clients communicate with every member of her team, and how getting rid of her markup has transformed her business for the better.

[Unknown]

What changed immediately when it was just you?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Well, to be honest with you, I.

[Bella Mancini]

Was really scared to have a business on my own. I wasn't sure I could do it, and I wasn't sure I wanted to do it. I just was nervous.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Alyssa is this charismatic, wonderful girl who.

[Bella Mancini]

Is super well connected in New York.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I felt like if I lost.

[Bella Mancini]

Her, was I going to be able.

[Caitlin Peterson]

To get business on my own? And I did. Yeah, I just kind of kept going forward.

[Bella Mancini]

I just trusted my instincts, as I.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Always have, and I just thought, like.

[Bella Mancini]

Okay, I can do this.

[Unknown]

What did that first 10 years in business look like? I feel like that 2005 to 2015 is sort of a distinct moment in New York.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Well, so I started my business in 2000. In 2005, I was then just on my own. So I would say for the next 10 years after that, my life changed a lot.

[Bella Mancini]

You know, I got married in 2005. I had my first child in 2008. I had my second child in 2012.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I started getting really serious about.

[Bella Mancini]

The kinds of staff members I was looking for. I got pretty clear about what kind of clients that we wanted. I kept the business to a manageable size and scale.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I was doing it on my own, and everything was me meeting clients, sealing.

[Bella Mancini]

The deal, starting the work.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And so I kept it pretty small for those. Those early years.

[Unknown]

Where did you land when you said, you know, you figured out who you wanted your client to be? What did that look like as you were kind of maintaining the business in that time?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Well, I started not saying yes to.

[Bella Mancini]

Every single project, and I set a budget requirement. And for me, that felt really scary because we got a lot of calls.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But they were for what I considered.

[Bella Mancini]

To be very projects that were too.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Small for a small firm. And so I set a budget requirement.

[Bella Mancini]

At the time, it was $150,000, which seemed is a lot of money.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I don't ever want to pretend that $150,000 isn't a lot of money, but it's not a tremendous amount of money in this work that we do.

[Bella Mancini]

But it is funny how, you know, you set these. You're so scared to say that number on the phone, you're like, I have $150,000 requirement. I remember the first time I said.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It, I was like, you know, squinching my face, and they're like, okay, you know, no problem. So.

[Unknown]

And did that keep happening then? People just kept saying, oh, that's fine.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah. But I mean, I think that we.

[Bella Mancini]

Were better able to educate people on what things cost. And at the time, we were doing like, you know, one to two bedroom apartments.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But what I found, Caitlin, is that as I started growing older and my family expanded, so did my clients.

[Bella Mancini]

Because for a long time, I was.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Designing for my peers or people in my sort of age group.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I was starting to get older. They were starting to get older.

[Bella Mancini]

The types of clients that we have, I do not work with a super artistic clientele or creative clientele.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So in these sorts of fields that my clients work in, whether it be law or finance, medicine, they. Their careers were expanding as well.

[Unknown]

What happened next? I mean, some of that early press that really put you on the map. How did kind of recognition kind of follow your business in those early years once you were out on your own?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I think press is.

[Bella Mancini]

Is great no matter what. And if it's. If it isn't great for drumming up new business, it's just really great for the ego.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I think I. I've always felt.

[Bella Mancini]

Very strongly that it does legitimize your business. Certainly I have never gotten business from press, except when we.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Those.

[Bella Mancini]

Those New York magazine lists that they used to do many moons ago.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I feel like it gave me the confidence. You know, I.

[Bella Mancini]

As I said before, I wasn't sure.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I wanted to have a business on my own. And so it gave me the confidence to kind of keep going, keep doing.

[Bella Mancini]

What I love to do. In the last several years, I have.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Not worked super hard to get press. I don't feel like it's the biggest.

[Bella Mancini]

Driver for my business's success or it hasn't been.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I'm not saying that that might.

[Bella Mancini]

Not be true for other people. It just has not been historically where.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Our projects come from, our projects really.

[Bella Mancini]

Come from word of mouth, and we.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Do repeat work for pretty much every.

[Bella Mancini]

Single one of our clients.

[Unknown]

Has word of mouth always been the biggest driver for you?

[Bella Mancini]

Yes.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Word of mouth is really everything for.

[Bella Mancini]

Us, which is why the relationship with.

[Caitlin Peterson]

My clients, our clients, I should say, is so important.

[Bella Mancini]

We've done nine houses for one family.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah, they have a lot of houses, but we've done, I think, all of them, I hope all of them.

[Bella Mancini]

The relationship part of this business is really the most important part to me.

[Unknown]

How does that show up in kind of the early days of getting to know a client? What is the work that you're putting in to solidify that relationship on the front end?

[Bella Mancini]

The most important thing to me is that a client feels comfortable.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I am, like, not the kind of designer that I'm trying to pretend.

[Bella Mancini]

I am, someone I am not.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I'm really casual. I'm super casual. I am really honest about my own life.

[Bella Mancini]

I share a lot of personal anecdotes.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Because I think that puts people at ease.

[Unknown]

Oh, like about the design process or just, like, about having a family?

[Bella Mancini]

Anything about all of it.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I mean, we spend a lot of time together. And honestly, like, I want to like.

[Bella Mancini]

Them as much as I want them to like me.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And, you know, 25 years in business.

[Bella Mancini]

I'm a pretty good detector of personality and whether someone's going to be a good personality fit for us. We do not work with mean people. That is like, something.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I can sense it from the first phone call. If they're going to be mean, that's just like, I'm not interested.

[Bella Mancini]

It's. Life's too short.

[Unknown]

What's the tell for a mean client?

[Bella Mancini]

I would say the tone that they use when they're on the phone. It's like, mean is maybe not the only word to use here, but I think that if you don't respect what we do.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Oh, I know, I know. A really good tell is when somebody says that they really could do it on their own.

[Bella Mancini]

They just don't have the time.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, they're gonna be a terrible client. I love that terrible client.

[Bella Mancini]

So mean people or who. People who don't respect what we do. And I also don't. If they question, like, right off the bat, start to poke holes in how we charge. Like, do you do that with your doctor? Do you do that with your lawyer?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, I don't think so.

[Bella Mancini]

It's not like we're charging millions and millions of dollars.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, nobody's buying a private yacht from our firm. So just know how have you set.

[Unknown]

Up some of that intake and getting to know you process to sort of facilitate that ease and that comfort on both sides.

[Bella Mancini]

We start every new project in the same way.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So we have, like, this really dorky.

[Bella Mancini]

Questionnaire that we make clients fill out.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But I think it's fun for them because nobody ever asks, you know, a partner in a law firm what sort of flowers they like, you know, so we. We really try to get to know people's preferences.

[Bella Mancini]

I ask questions like, what kind of.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Clothing brands do people wear and where.

[Bella Mancini]

Do they like to take a vacation?

[Caitlin Peterson]

So it just gives me a sense.

[Bella Mancini]

Into who somebody is.

[Caitlin Peterson]

As a human, we try to understand how a person goes about their day.

[Bella Mancini]

In their home from the minute they wake up till the minute they go to sleep, what they do on the.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Weekends, where they like to sit, how.

[Bella Mancini]

They eat their dinner. I often say that if you eat dinner at your coffee table every night.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, I don't care.

[Bella Mancini]

I'm not judging you.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I don't really.

[Bella Mancini]

I really don't care.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But I want to give you a.

[Bella Mancini]

Coffee table that you can eat at. So just be honest about your life. Like, I want your life to look like more beautiful and maybe function better.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Than it does when you call me. But I'm not looking to change who.

[Bella Mancini]

You are as a human. I just want you to do it.

[Caitlin Peterson]

With a better napkin.

[Bella Mancini]

I have a really good friend who says this. Kathleen Walsh. I'll steal this from her and give.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Her credit, but she always says, you.

[Bella Mancini]

Know, you shouldn't see your home on my website.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You shouldn't see it yet.

[Bella Mancini]

It hasn't been designed. So we have such a wide range of abilities.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And everybody in my office has a.

[Bella Mancini]

Design preference that's different from the other.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So it's really fun to kind of.

[Bella Mancini]

Tap into all of our brains and.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Create something different for everybody.

[Unknown]

What happens after the questionnaire?

[Bella Mancini]

We always get to work next on drawings. We always start with a furniture plan. We present those to the client in.

[Caitlin Peterson]

A meeting, and we present as many.

[Bella Mancini]

As makes sense for the room. And then from there we start on. If it's just a straightforward decorating project, we start on the actual decorating work.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Which is, you know, super fun part of the project.

[Bella Mancini]

But we start to pull together the fabrics and the furniture and the lighting and the window treatment ideas and the rugs.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And we usually take about three months.

[Bella Mancini]

From the time we sign a contract to get to that first meeting that we call the preliminary design meeting. So from there, we take a client shopping.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I like to show them as many.

[Bella Mancini]

Options as they can see.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I mean, in this day and age.

[Bella Mancini]

It'S hard to see things in person.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But we will try to take them.

[Bella Mancini]

To see as many things. I'm pretty insistent that they sit on sofas.

[Caitlin Peterson]

If something is not.

[Bella Mancini]

If something's being custom made, then that's.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Really easy because we take them to the workroom while it's being in the.

[Bella Mancini]

Various Stages of completion.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But I like people to sit in sofas.

[Bella Mancini]

There's such a massive investment, and I.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You know, I'm five three, and everybody.

[Bella Mancini]

In my office is tiny.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So what's comfortable for us is not comfortable for a client who's, you know.

[Bella Mancini]

Everybody in the family is 6ft and above.

[Unknown]

When you've left that preliminary design meeting, what decisions have been made? Is it more about like, okay, this is the direction we're going, or have you locked in fabrics, some furnishings?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I would say that we have locked in many fabrics, many furniture pieces, but.

[Bella Mancini]

We are usually missing a few pieces that we call the to be found options. And that's usually where we want to incorporate some vintage antiques into the mix.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And, and we'll fold those in throughout.

[Bella Mancini]

The remainder of the project. But I'd say that we have a.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Very clear design direction, color, story, and a lot of the furnishings, at least the look and feel in place when.

[Bella Mancini]

They walk out the door from that preliminary meeting.

[Unknown]

You know, all of those clients saying, get, like, whatever you think, what percentage at this point is returning versus new clients typically?

[Bella Mancini]

Oh, gosh.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I would say that almost 100% of.

[Bella Mancini]

The large scale projects that we've done.

[Caitlin Peterson]

In the last 10 to 15 years.

[Bella Mancini]

We'Ve at least done a second home for the clients.

[Unknown]

Are you still bringing kind of new people into the fold consistently, though?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Yeah, we are still bringing new people. So we get, I would say we're working on, let's see, four projects now that are brand new to us of this year.

[Bella Mancini]

From this year.

[Unknown]

You called yourself, when we were preparing for this conversation, you called yourself a friend, collector, which I love. How does that show up in the work, though? Or how does that show up in your relationship with clients?

[Bella Mancini]

Well, I think that's part of my.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Ability to make people feel at ease, that I try to keep it really personal. Like, I am totally different from a lot of designers who are, like, maintain these very strong lines between, you know.

[Bella Mancini]

Their professional life and their personal life.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And mine are way more blurry than that. And I, I don't know that it's always a good thing, but I end up being friends with a lot of my clients. And sometimes I actually even forget that we started out working together. I guess I think that what that does is just allows people to feel comfortable with us and knowing that, like.

[Bella Mancini]

I have their best interest at heart always.

[Unknown]

Does it ever make it hard to send an invoice?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I try to stay out of billing.

[Unknown]

Okay. Oh, we'll talk about that a little bit.

[Caitlin Peterson]

No, it doesn't it's not hard for me.

[Unknown]

I want to pivot. You know, we were talking about kind of how the path your business took to the present and I wanted to talk for a little bit about kind of the pandemic's impact on your firm.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So.

[Bella Mancini]

The pandemic, wow, that was fun.

[Unknown]

Well, I know, I mean, I know it landed differently for you. I think one of the interesting post pandemic things and I catch myself doing it, I catch our team doing it, is we talk about the pandemic's impact on the design industry and we tend to frame it as this bountiful time as just like, oh, it was the COVID boom and it didn't necessarily land not me. And I think that actually does the industry a disservice to kind of gloss over the fact like to assume that it landed that way for everybody.

[Bella Mancini]

No, it did not.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It was really hard on me.

[Bella Mancini]

As embarrassing as it is to admit, I did not have good cash reserves.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I mean a couple things happened. One, we had no new business in the pipeline.

[Bella Mancini]

Two, all of our projects got shut down. All of our projects were in New York City. So every job site was shut down.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I had no cash reserves. I also had two young kids at home. Let's not forget how fun that was for parents.

[Bella Mancini]

I had a husband who absolutely had to work every single day.

[Caitlin Peterson]

He was on a zoom from, you know, they, they started at like 7:30 or 8am until the evenings. And I had a second grader and a sixth grader and so I kind.

[Bella Mancini]

Of had to step back from my business to be honest.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And my, my right hand woman, she's.

[Bella Mancini]

Sort of a partner at this point.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But Taryn, she really had to take.

[Bella Mancini]

Over on the day to day and.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I, I had to lay off pretty.

[Bella Mancini]

Much everybody but her.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So that was heartbreaking. I am an incredibly loyal person. I loved every single one of those people. But I knew that the best shot.

[Bella Mancini]

I had for being able to bring.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Them back was letting a couple people go and allowing one of them to collect unemployment. So the only thing I was doing at that point was like working on.

[Bella Mancini]

All the government paperwork to get right.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Right loans and, and trying to like not slip into like terrible alcoholism and, and homeschool my children at the same time. So that was, it was really rough.

[Bella Mancini]

But I, it was so great in.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So many ways when I look back on it now because it really helped me do a few things. Like one, I got financially lot smarter.

[Bella Mancini]

I now am at have at least three months reserves. I Mean, you sure you're supposed to have more?

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I worked it to six months reserves with a full line of credit and one person decided that she wasn't going to go back.

[Bella Mancini]

She didn't want to commute into the city anymore.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And then one person came back and.

[Bella Mancini]

And then of course I kept tearing through the whole time. She was actually the only person who.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Got paid through the whole thing. But I was happy.

[Bella Mancini]

I wanted to do that for her. She had a brand new baby at.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Home and she was really working really, really hard. I mean, she was doing kind of everything. And we did have a couple, we ended up getting a couple of remote projects and she was running those. I mean, I was consulting for her basically on them, but she was really running them on her own.

[Bella Mancini]

So she, she kept at work.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But yeah, it was a pretty, pretty dark time for me and I, I do not shy away from sharing that.

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[Unknown]

When did you start to feel optimistic about your business again?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I suppose that fall.

[Bella Mancini]

That first fall, you know, we got.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Back to work and my family and I moved back.

[Bella Mancini]

We had a weekend house on the north fork of Long island where we.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Waited out most of COVID in that summer. And we moved. We came back to Brooklyn and my girls were back in the office that first summer. So like July of 2020, they were back in the office. But I started feeling optimistic. Then we, we started a new project in Connecticut and we had another project in Woodstock. And yeah, I mean, it wasn't great. It wasn't, it wasn't financially like booming moment business, but at least I. I could see sort of light at the end of the tunnel.

[Unknown]

You ended up hiring Sean Lowe to help sort of overhaul your systems. What changed?

[Caitlin Peterson]

He helped me, like completely rework the way we build, the way I thought about my business, about knowing my value. But the most magical thing that he.

[Bella Mancini]

Did, which took a massive leap of.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Faith for me, was the full overhaul.

[Bella Mancini]

On our billing practices.

[Unknown]

Where did you start and where did you end up at the end of that Transition.

[Bella Mancini]

When I first started my business, we were a flat fee model plus a small markup.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And then we went to an hourly plus a markup. For many years, we were hourly plus a markup.

[Bella Mancini]

When I started working with Sean, he.

[Caitlin Peterson]

If anybody knows Sean, they know that he is very anti hourly and he is very anti markup. So I said, said I thought to myself, like, I'm investing all this money in hiring this consultant if I don't just do it. So I, I did. And it completely transformed the way I.

[Bella Mancini]

Feel about the business and about.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I think my, my team loves.

[Bella Mancini]

It so much too.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So Sean's whole model is, you know, valuing the work that you do, valuing the design, valuing the things that the client cannot do and they cannot design.

[Bella Mancini]

That's what we're there for.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So putting a number on the design work and getting good at figuring out what that should look like and how much of our team's time it's going to take to design it and how much time it's going to take to execute it is really what we did. And it's been really wonderful for us. I just love it. Now.

[Bella Mancini]

It's not to say that we don't still have some projects that we charge hourly plus a markup for. I do still work that way with returning clients.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So if a client comes to us and they say we want to do, you know, we want to turn our.

[Bella Mancini]

Teenager'S bedroom, they've left for college, we want to turn that into an office. I do still work hourly plus a.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Markup because it's very difficult to price a project.

[Bella Mancini]

Like if they came in off the street with that project, we wouldn't take it.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But since returning client, we'll do it.

[Bella Mancini]

And we can be really fast with work like that.

[Caitlin Peterson]

We've already done all of the work into the, like who they are. We know them really well, we know what they're going to like.

[Bella Mancini]

We know that frankly, we can probably.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Show them one item for each, you know, for the room and they're going to sign off on it. So it's kind of quick and dirty work and just really easy, easy to do. So I still won't do that. And then we still do work hourly when it comes to construction management.

[Unknown]

What does a flat fee plus markup free? What does the billing look like or how does that work and how do you talk about it with clients?

[Bella Mancini]

We do estimate all costs based on.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What we think the time it's going to take us. But I really hated the fact that when we worked hourly. I felt two ways. One, I felt that we were always forgetting to write down time.

[Bella Mancini]

And if you're up in the middle.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Of the night thinking about a project.

[Bella Mancini]

Are you supposed to be writing down that time?

[Unknown]

It just always felt you're also brushing your teeth. Does it count?

[Caitlin Peterson]

Totally.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, you know, I. I mean, most.

[Bella Mancini]

Designers are thinking about design, like, 90% of their day.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I really hated the fact that.

[Bella Mancini]

I felt like we were losing time.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But then I also felt like I hated the fact that I was being nickel and dimey with people. And, like, I don't.

[Bella Mancini]

I just didn't want to do that. And working on a flat fee, it frees me up to just think about.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It whenever I want, however I want. And I also think that clients, in.

[Bella Mancini]

My experience, get hourly billing fatigue.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I call hourly bills mystery bills because I think that, like, they have.

[Bella Mancini]

No idea what they're going to open.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Up in that email and then on.

[Bella Mancini]

The back end of things.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So we also charge what we call a production fee, and that is instead.

[Bella Mancini]

Of a markup fee.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And the reason I like that so much is because I frankly always felt.

[Bella Mancini]

Like a used car salesman when we charged the markup on things.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I don't want to feel like that. And I want to feel like there's a freedom to show you a $50,000.

[Bella Mancini]

Dining table if that's the right table.

[Unknown]

For you, and not have the client wondering, well, gosh, if she's making 35% on this.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Totally. And also, like, I'm only human. Like, I like money as much as the next person. Of course, I me to be thinking about how much money I'm going to make on that table.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It never made any sense to me. Even when I did it. I just kind of went along with.

[Bella Mancini]

It because that's what everybody else does. But I just.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I don't like it. And being agnostic to a client's spend has been incredibly.

[Bella Mancini]

It's been creatively very freeing.

[Unknown]

How do you calculate that production fee, then?

[Bella Mancini]

Well, it's loosely based on a percentage, but when I say loosely, I mean very loosely.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I always make sure that the production fee wouldn't be higher than if they were going to hire a designer at, you know, we were at 35% markup, or we are at 35% markup.

[Bella Mancini]

On those types of projects where we.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Do hourly plus markup. But I am very careful that it would never exceed that. But it's really a calculation about how.

[Bella Mancini]

Much time it's going to take from.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Our Procurement manager and how many months.

[Bella Mancini]

The project's going to take to produce.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So we figure out what that flat fee is going to be and we divide that over the course of however.

[Bella Mancini]

Many months a project's going to take.

[Caitlin Peterson]

To produce and ultimately install.

[Unknown]

If that project goes over like, you know, if the timeline keeps going, does the client keep paying or when they've paid that last, you know, say you divided by 10, when they've paid the 10th installment of that fee. What happens in the 11th month?

[Bella Mancini]

If in the 11th month the project's not finished?

[Caitlin Peterson]

To no fault of my office, I usually give them a freebie month. And then if it's not completed, I usually move to an hourly model for our time.

[Unknown]

How did this shift change your conversations with clients about money?

[Bella Mancini]

The conversation about money feels very different.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Because I can tell them right away.

[Bella Mancini]

What it's going to cost. I used to hate saying, well, I don't know what your hourly bills are going to look like because I don't.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Know how fast you're going to make decisions. Like, that's sort of a lame answer. And so now I know exactly what it's going going to take, how many months it's going to take, what it's going to cost, and I'm able to put together a really strong budget for them right at the get go.

[Unknown]

How has the experience of sort of retooling your financial systems and just the financials of the business changed your mindset as a principal?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I feel very freed up to think about other things now, knowing that I.

[Bella Mancini]

Can look at our projections for like we're looking at projections for. We're almost two years out at this.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Point, and I know exactly what we.

[Bella Mancini]

Have coming in for the projects that we're working on now. I know exactly what we have coming in.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So if you don't know what someone's going to buy and what happens if a budget gets slashed, you know, it.

[Bella Mancini]

Happens all the time, and especially in.

[Caitlin Peterson]

This very uncertain financial environment we're in at the moment. Yeah, it's helped me just get a lot more confident about how we approach the budget conversation as well, because there's nothing tied. None of my firm's earnings are tied.

[Bella Mancini]

To what they're spending.

[Unknown]

How does thinking about your business through that lens change your goals or your ambitions for the firm? How did it make you look differently at the opportunities that are ahead?

[Bella Mancini]

Well, I'll tell you, working in this.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Model, I have not taken on quite.

[Bella Mancini]

A few projects because of it. You know what it's allowed us to.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Do is just know right away if somebody's not going to be a good fit because either they don't see the value in what we bring to the table, so they, they think that they're not going to pay that, which by the way, they're going to. Yeah, I mean, we all get to the same number. We just go about it differently. So they might go with the designer.

[Bella Mancini]

Who says that they can do it for less.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But like I have been doing this long enough to know I know what it cost to do a project. And either you're going to. Not. Maybe you won't make any, maybe another designer is not going to make any money on it.

[Bella Mancini]

But that's also not great for business.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But more importantly, I just know what.

[Bella Mancini]

It'S going to cost them to get.

[Caitlin Peterson]

A job like that done. So if a client shies away from our Billy model or whatever I say the numbers look like in the very.

[Bella Mancini]

Beginning, like they're probably not a right.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Fit client, and that's okay. I like the way this model works.

[Bella Mancini]

For us because with the ability to do our projection so far out, I can know how much work that we.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Either need to bring in or what.

[Bella Mancini]

Kinds of projects we can take.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So it's made it a lot easier to be very clear about what we.

[Bella Mancini]

Need to be working on and how many projects we need to take on.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I just don't, I don't want to run a million projects at a time anymore. I'm just like, I'm absolutely not interested in it.

[Unknown]

What, what is sort of the limit or what, what's comfortable for the team you have right now?

[Caitlin Peterson]

We try to work on between five.

[Bella Mancini]

And eight projects a year.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And right now I think we have.

[Bella Mancini]

12 projects running in our office at various stages. So we are very tiny but mighty team.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I always say that we are four.

[Bella Mancini]

It is the right size for us at least right now.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I do sometimes think that if we had one or two on the large scale projects that we, we do, maybe.

[Bella Mancini]

Another person could fit in there.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But right now, this is, this has.

[Bella Mancini]

Been a great size for us for the last few years.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So it is myself, my name is.

[Bella Mancini]

On the door, but I am absolutely not the person doing all the work.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I tell people that the second they call me too.

[Bella Mancini]

I want them to know that every.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Single person working with me is going.

[Bella Mancini]

To be working on their project and they will not always be speaking to me.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It's very important that they respect my.

[Bella Mancini]

Team members in the same way they respect me.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I have a woman named Taryn Burns.

[Bella Mancini]

She's been with me for 14 years.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And she really runs the projects in.

[Bella Mancini]

Terms of the timelines.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So she. I mean, she's a fabulous designer, first of all, but she's my right hand for sure, and she really keeps everybody in the office on task. And she's, you know, kind of the den mom.

[Bella Mancini]

Then we have a woman named Alex Campolongo.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Alex has been with me now going on eight years in July. She's a tremendously skilled drafts person, and she does beautiful renders. She's a great designer. She's a fantastic senior designer.

[Bella Mancini]

So she works with both Taryn and.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Myself on all of the presentations and.

[Bella Mancini]

All of the projects and all the project management.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Then we have Kat Clench, and Kat is our phenomenal production person. Funny story. So Kat started with me as my family's babysitter.

[Unknown]

Oh, my gosh.

[Bella Mancini]

In the fall of 2020.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And she was professional dancer, and she.

[Bella Mancini]

Was looking to make a career transition, and there was, like, not a lot.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Of dancing happening during COVID so she.

[Bella Mancini]

Started babysitting, but she became my. My. My babysitter.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And then the next year, when my family moved out of the city, we moved in the summer of 2021 to Sag Harbor. And my husband looked at me and.

[Bella Mancini]

He'S like, you cannot lose Kat. She's too awesome. And I was like, you know what? You're right.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I approached her and we had a.

[Bella Mancini]

We had an opening in the office. And I said, would you be interested.

[Caitlin Peterson]

In this position that I want to create, as it's not a design position?

[Bella Mancini]

I was really clear with her. I said, we need a production person.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I want to. I want a person who is, like.

[Bella Mancini]

Just dedicated to production and delivery schedules.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And liaising with our bookkeeper. And she was excited about the opportunity because she was trying to transition out.

[Bella Mancini]

Of dance, and she wasn't quite sure what she wanted to do.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So she's been with us now for.

[Bella Mancini]

What is that, five, almost five years.

[Unknown]

What is that job or what's so essential about that job?

[Bella Mancini]

Well, we say she's the lady with all the information.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You know, if you want to know.

[Bella Mancini]

Where something is, you call Kat. She liaises with our warehouse. So she knows exactly, like, what's come.

[Caitlin Peterson]

In, what's at the warehouse, what we're waiting for. She places all the orders, she's handling all the payments that she can from her side of things. And then she, as I said, she liaises with her bookkeeper for anything that.

[Bella Mancini]

He needs to do.

[Unknown]

We talk a lot on this show about how a principal's role evolves as their team changes. What are you thinking about the work that you want to be doing or what is the role that you've really carved out for yourself within the firm and on each job?

[Bella Mancini]

Because my team is so small, we.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Are able to make sure that everybody's doing what's in their, like, what do they call it in those zone of genius.

[Bella Mancini]

Right, the zone of genius.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Thank you. Yes. So I try to make sure that the girls in the office are doing the thing that they like the most. I mean, that should be the majority of their day. And that's hopefully what keeps them excited and happy about the work that we do. As the person with the name on the door, people, when they first call, they want to speak to me. And that's a part of the process. I love, I love the early stage that we talked about earlier of the getting to know you, getting to know your family, getting to know your preferences. And I love the relationship aspect of it. I mean, that's a really long winded.

[Bella Mancini]

Way of saying that I love the.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Relationship aspect and I think I'm really good at it. It's something I'm super comfortable with. So I am in every single design meeting and we do all the design.

[Bella Mancini]

Work together as a team.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So those are the things that I think I'm best at.

[Bella Mancini]

I'm not a great project manager.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I don't want to get in people's way. And I think I used to be.

[Bella Mancini]

A lot more micromanaging than I am now.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And part of not being that way anymore has to do with the fact.

[Bella Mancini]

That I just have such an awesome team.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like I don't have to. And I think that they all do what they do so well that like, I just don't really need to. I don't need to be breathing down their necks.

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[Unknown]

How do you think about that idea of employee growth and development or sort of fostering contentment in an office?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I encourage them to get out often. Taryn and I have done a Lot of traveling together, so we've, you know.

[Bella Mancini]

Gone to Maison Object together a couple times.

[Caitlin Peterson]

We've been to Milan together. And this past salone I sent, sent Alex and Taryn together to go and be inspired and come back with lots.

[Bella Mancini]

Of new refreshed ideas.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And they have. So I try to keep them excited.

[Bella Mancini]

About their jobs by doing things like that.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's a real, it's an easy way.

[Bella Mancini]

A low cost way to the company.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Of making them feel like they're doing more than riding the subway to work.

[Bella Mancini]

And sitting at their desks all day.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And so things like that, we, we hang out together.

[Bella Mancini]

I mean, the truth is we all like each other a lot.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, I'm like a hundred years older than everybody, but I assure they don't like to hang out with me as much as I like to hang out with them. But it's for friends. We're genuinely friends in our office. And it's a funny story. We, we actually hired an HR person.

[Bella Mancini]

A few years ago.

[Caitlin Peterson]

We were like, Taryn and I were like, we got to get serious about this. You know, we got to like, we had an employee that we were worried a little bit. He, he didn't work out for the office and I was. Both Taryn and I felt we were.

[Bella Mancini]

Very disappointed that it didn't work out.

[Caitlin Peterson]

But we also felt like we were probably not as buttoned up as we should be. And I would encourage any, any designer.

[Bella Mancini]

Established or not, if you do not.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Have a, an HR company you're working with to make sure you have a handbook and all of that, those things in place, I would encourage everybody to have that.

[Unknown]

Are there other things like that? Those like, I don't want to say little investments because they're not always small, but I don't know, are there other things like that where you would say, like, oh, every designer should spend the money to do X?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I think every designer should spend the money or not spend the money, but take the time to figure out the billing model that works best for them. It's not a one size fits all thing. And I'm not saying what I'm doing is right for everybody. It really probably isn't the things that I'm bad at, which is I really hate talking about money and it's very.

[Bella Mancini]

Much a female thing.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I am really trying to, to.

[Bella Mancini]

Get better about it. If you're comfortable and you feel super.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Confident that charging markup is right and.

[Bella Mancini]

It makes sense to you, then great, do it. But like, it never felt right to me.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So it Always made me really terrible, frankly, about talking about it, because I didn't even know how to back it up. I didn't actually ever believe in it. So I would say either it's an.

[Bella Mancini]

Investment of time or money.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Get really clear on making sure that.

[Bella Mancini]

Whatever you're doing, whatever you're presenting is really in line with your values. And also, I've let go of a.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Lot of the stuff that I used.

[Bella Mancini]

To really care about. You know, I used to think that I had to go to everything I.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Was invited to, and if I didn't.

[Bella Mancini]

Show up, they wouldn't know who I was.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And then Covid happened and we all.

[Bella Mancini]

Learned that none of it actually really matters.

[Caitlin Peterson]

You know what I mean? And then I also moved two and.

[Bella Mancini]

A half hours away from the city, and I am in the city now.

[Caitlin Peterson]

For like half my week, not even every week. And it doesn't actually matter if you.

[Bella Mancini]

Go to every single trade event.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It doesn't matter if, you know, if every editor knows you by name. And it just doesn't.

[Bella Mancini]

It just doesn't matter. I sort of made this rule for myself that I was only going to.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Go to things where I'd really be.

[Bella Mancini]

Missed if I didn't show up.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I can tell you that's probably very few places.

[Unknown]

That's such a great barometer, though.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Well, yeah, I mean, it works for me because I. It also, like, I kind of had to do that because I just can't go to everything.

[Bella Mancini]

Like, and that's the other thing.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, I would encourage people to get.

[Bella Mancini]

Really clear about, like, what they really want from their careers.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I mean, that seems so obvious, but I realized like, a long time ago, like, I have zero aspirations to have my name on a product. None.

[Bella Mancini]

Zero.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like, I love design.

[Bella Mancini]

We love designing custom furniture in our.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Office, but we don't really want.

[Bella Mancini]

Want to.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I don't really want to sell it to anybody. For like half a second we were.

[Bella Mancini]

Like, oh, we should turn our logo into wallpaper. And we had it made for our office wall.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And like, I kind of hated it. And I was like, yeah, this isn't for me. So, no, I, I just, I. I.

[Bella Mancini]

Mean, am I a fool maybe?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I'm sure there's ton.

[Bella Mancini]

I don't know if there's tons of.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Money, but there's like, I.

[Bella Mancini]

My ego just doesn't need it that much. And it's not.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I really want to be very careful.

[Bella Mancini]

To say that that's.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I'm not saying that's an ego driven endeavor. It's just not Something that is interesting to me, I'd rather like. I don't want a book. I want to just do great work and hopefully make people super happy with the homes that we designed for them.

[Unknown]

Is there one thing you know now that you wish you had known from the start?

[Bella Mancini]

I wish I had started a 401k earlier.

[Unknown]

Okay. Yeah.

[Bella Mancini]

And so does my husband.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I mean, I joke about that, but.

[Bella Mancini]

I'm very serious about that.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like that is something that we implemented maybe only 10 years ago. And I'm not proud of that. It's. It's pretty immature of me in a lot of ways. I mean, I didn't think the business could really afford it it for a long time. But then I would say to start.

[Bella Mancini]

Start a 401k as soon as you possibly can.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I wish that I had socked away the six months of emergency fund that everybody should have because being like, you.

[Bella Mancini]

Never know if there's like a ma.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I mean we could be faced with a massive economic downturn.

[Bella Mancini]

I don't know.

[Caitlin Peterson]

All signs point to yes. So that's, that's a little scary. And so I worry about smaller firms that maybe are not as established in.

[Bella Mancini]

Being able to ride that storm.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I would say that I wish.

[Bella Mancini]

I had known that that was really important. I wish that I had known that. So much of the other stuff just doesn't matter like we talked about before, that it only has importance if you.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Place great importance on it. And otherwise it's just vanity.

[Unknown]

Was there ever a sense of kind of letting go of some of the, you know, you said, I don't want a book, I don't want the product line. I'm guessing you don't want to be famous on Instagram, but I feel like, so I talk to so many designers who feel like they're supposed to want all of those things.

[Bella Mancini]

I've never really been the kind of.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Person who does things just because other people do them. I just, it's kind of just not who I am. I wasn't. Yeah, I haven't ever really been like that. I mean, certainly I, I would be.

[Bella Mancini]

A complete liar if I didn't say.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That I obsessively checked.

[Bella Mancini]

Check the Instagram or whatever.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Like that is definitely something that I think about.

[Bella Mancini]

We, we have 12,100 followers or something like that.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And let me tell you, those are hard earned followers. I've never been a person who was.

[Bella Mancini]

Going to buy followers.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I know a lot of people did early in early days. It's just like, I just know in.

[Bella Mancini]

My heart of hearts that it doesn't matter.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Even if you're sort of feeling like.

[Bella Mancini]

You should care more.

[Caitlin Peterson]

So I don't know what to tell somebody if they think that they have.

[Bella Mancini]

To do those things. Maybe they just aren't yet 50.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And if they're over 50, I don't know. I know, maybe just like either, then just like into it, then maybe it does matter to you. Like, it doesn't.

[Bella Mancini]

There's no right or wrong.

[Caitlin Peterson]

It's just like, it's just not something.

[Bella Mancini]

That I prioritize anymore.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I want to do really good work for really nice people. I want the girls in my office.

[Bella Mancini]

To feel super fulfilled in their careers.

[Caitlin Peterson]

I want them to feel that I really care about them. I want them to hopefully make more and more money and be able to.

[Bella Mancini]

Do all the things in their free.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Time that they want to do and.

[Bella Mancini]

Be able to afford it without having a second job.

[Caitlin Peterson]

And I don't know, I want to retire at some point.

[Unknown]

Well, I was going to ask you, what does success look like for you? But is that it?

[Caitlin Peterson]

I mean, yes, I suppose in, in some ways you could say that's it. I, I do think that success is continuing to be able to do this work that I really genuinely love and getting to work with my incredible team. And, you know, I'm not delusional into thinking that everybody's going to stay forever.

[Bella Mancini]

But while we are, the four of.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Us, I want to enjoy every minute of it. And that feels very successful to me. As cheesy as it sounds, I just want to keep making beautiful homes for really nice people. I have really super, super lovely clients. And that feels pretty darn successful, I have to say. And I just like more of that.

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email [e-mail] Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you back here next weekend.