← Trade Tales
Trade Tales
How Jae Joo unlocked better creative control over her projects
00:49:54
Jae Joo on how she builds demand for her work by taking a strategic approach to getting published, how she’s prioritized structuring her fees in the most digestible way for clients, and why she now insists on building her own team of tradespeople to executive her visual vocabulary.
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- [00:03]
Jae Zhu
I try to just not care about that, but you know, it's always in the back of my mind, Am I going to be roasted for this? You just have to believe in your idea and like, execute it, and you have to believe it in your vision.
- [00:16]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season seven of the show, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm.
- [00:32]
Unknown
My hope is that you hear your.
- [00:33]
Caitlin Peterson
Own why a good in these stories, or an idea or way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer whose work is all about taking a step outside of the status quo. But getting there isn't a destination. It takes constant effort. She explains how she attracts clients who are willing to take creative risks, and why getting every contractor on board with her vision is an essential part of her process.
- [01:07]
Unknown
I can't wait to share it with.
- [01:08]
Caitlin Peterson
You, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is sponsored by Regina Andrew, a luxury lifestyle brand specializing in lighting, furniture and decor. Born in the Paris of the Midwest, the company's roots run deep in a city it calls Home Detroit. The city's singular style and character have shaped who they are, what they make and how they make it. With a deep commitment to soulfully crafting heirloom quality items, their pursuit of inspiration has taken them across the world to discover materials and forms that drive their designs. Crafted with passionate attention to detail and a quest to deliver the unexpected, Regina Andrews products, much like the journey that inspired them, each have a story. Start shopping for your next project@reginaandrew.com market. You'll save 15% off your next purchase by using the code TRADETALES15 at checkout now through July 1st. Start shopping today at reginaandrew.com market. This podcast is brought to you by Surya, the leading source for design forward rugs, furniture, lighting, wall decor and textiles. Known for superior quality and meticulous craftsmanship, Soria's beautiful assortment of home furnishings is backed by the highest stock rate in the industry to keep designers projects on track and on time. And from its experienced product specialists to an easy to shop website, the company's customer centric approach makes finding the perfect pieces for your projects absolutely effortless. With no order or reorder minimums to open an account, there's never been a better time to join the suria family, visit suria.com to open a trade account today. That's S U R Y A dot com.
- [03:12]
Jae Zhu
I was born and raised in Korea and then later moved to New York to pursue my dreams of becoming an opera singer. So music was kind of a major part of my life. Playing the piano and singing, which led to getting a degree in opera performance by the time I was done in college. I love music. I felt pretty done with singing. I just felt the need for more of a practical and, like, creatively, like, diverse career or outlet, so I was looking for that. And I'm also a very social person, so I realized I just really love working with people, and I wanted to find something that's Jae Zhu.
- [03:50]
Caitlin Peterson
While she was looking for a new career, she married her college sweetheart, and the pair purchased a brownstone in Brooklyn. Before long, they got to work reimagining the space from top to bottom.
- [04:01]
Jae Zhu
Although I always loved decorating and, you know, obsessed over, like, decorating my college, my dorm room, this was very different. Historic renovation felt like a different game, and this kind of felt like, you know, first place we owned, and everything kind of fell on our shoulders. So I learned a lot through this process, most of them being very hard lessons. Importantly, I learned that I really have a passion for this. So I really started to get into, like, wanting to have a career in this. And that's when I found homepolish.
- [04:32]
Caitlin Peterson
At the time, Home Polish was still finding its footing as a lead generator for up and coming designers. Once Jay signed up, success came quicker than she expected.
- [04:43]
Jae Zhu
I started with small projects within the company, but that changed really quickly, and within a year, I was juggling, like, nine projects at once. It felt chaotic, but I really didn't mind. And for the first time, I really felt like I was doing something that I genuinely loved. It started with them helping me with almost every single part, but then quickly, it kind of became more of my own business, where I was juggling a lot more. By the time that I was leaving, I mean, I was, I would say, almost, you know, 90%. I was running it on my own. So a lot of it was kind of like, okay, I think it just really makes sense for me to start my own. I remember signing my first project after I left Home Polish and feeling, like, really relieved that, okay, I think I can do this. Like, I can write my own contract. You know, things like that. You know, it was a. Yeah, there was some, you know, growing pains, but it. Eventually it worked out on its own.
- [05:31]
Caitlin Peterson
By 2017, Jay had officially launched her firm. I wanted to talk to her about how the pursuit of getting published shapes her work, why she's prioritized structuring her fees in the most digestible way for clients, and why she no longer takes projects if she doesn't have total creative oversight.
- [05:53]
Unknown
When did you start to feel like your business had really hit its stride? When did you start to feel like, I know what I'm doing. I am established. This will absolutely work?
- [06:03]
Jae Zhu
So I think things really started to take off when my Brooklyn loft project was published, which was only, like, my third project. And I think I got very lucky with getting a really perfect match for clients and also the space alone. And that project had. Had gotten a lot of press, and it got published a few times. And I realized that I was getting different scale projects then. So even, you know, I was leaving home polish then. But I started to feel like, okay, I'm getting a much bigger project, and clients are really looking for me to lead these projects, Hiring the architect and, like, coming up with all these things. So, you know, I just kind of had to feel like this was the moment that I scale and I kind of just level up everything. And this was during COVID My Brooklyn townhouse had come out, and it went clever, which is outside of ad, And I was kind of, like, bummed out about it going to, you know, not the ad, but the response for that project was, like, honestly, overwhelming. I couldn't believe how much attention I got, and a lot, honestly. And also the funny thing was, on Instagram, all the comments were like, I can't believe this designer ripped all the historic details and then, like, did this modernized townhouse. And I just couldn't tell what the reaction was, but it was like, I couldn't believe it. So, I mean, I had to hire somebody to take the. The respond to the emails that I was getting back then because I was getting so many. So I was like, okay, I think. I think we're okay. You know, I think we're on our own. How.
- [07:37]
Unknown
I mean, how do you think about press as sort of a tool to grow your business? It's funny, there was, I guess, a couple episodes on the show, talked a lot about really thinking strategically about pitching for digital based on who has the most Instagram followers. And I had never heard someone say that in sort of such a clear and specific way.
- [07:58]
Jae Zhu
Yeah, very refreshing because it's true for everyone. Everyone, I'm sure, feels the exact same way. Everyone wants the account that has the most followers, of course, you know, and.
- [08:09]
Unknown
You Felt the difference when, you know, when that's where your project lands?
- [08:13]
Jae Zhu
Yes, I think so. I mean, to be honest, you know, it makes you feel validated and it makes you feel good that it's going to a publication that a lot of people are looking to, you know, when they want to get inspiration. You're, like, really flattered, and it kind of gives you confidence. But also there, there are surprising moments where your project goes somewhere. Like, one of my first projects landed in Business Insider, and I remember being like, this is such an odd place for it to go. But then I got all these projects from it and then, you know, like, Rob Report, all these, like, magazines that are more maybe like business related and, you know, and, but people are kind of looking for designers but not particularly interested in reading all these magazines. So, like, yeah, it has its own power. But I am very, very picky with, you know, I, I, I'm very selective with, you know, where I pitch my projects, and I think very hard about it.
- [09:04]
Unknown
Can you walk me through that process of sort of elimination or that process of maybe looking at a project and saying, where should this go? And when do you start thinking about where you're gonna pitch something?
- [09:15]
Jae Zhu
When the project's wrapping up, you kind of start to get the feel of where, you know, you would like to see it go. And recently it's more stressful because clients also have list of where they want to see their house go. So, you know, you're kind of in a situation where like, of course, you know, everybody wants to do the best and, you know, I have to be in a position where I'm comforting the clients to be like, of course this is good, of course this is good. You know, we're doing the right thing. And so, like, you know, you think about it pretty early on, if I'm being really honest and how I pitch it. I have, you know, built my own connections for like, these major press, like a few people per press, where I do my main pitch myself always. And then after that, if it, it really depends on how well it does. And you could kind of feel it once it goes on social media. If I feel that it's really worth it, you know, I would hire a peer person to kind of pitch it internationally or like wherever, or if the project does really well on its own. Let's say it goes to ad, if AD France or AD Italy would just publish it on their own without any sort of effort. So, like, sometimes that's what you really want, but, you know, you kind of just wait and See how it's received.
- [10:28]
Unknown
Where did those instincts come from? Or how did you sort of hone those instincts in that approach?
- [10:34]
Jae Zhu
Honestly, I was, like, shooting for the stars from the beginning because I was getting inspirations from these magazines that I was looking at. You know, I would really study the photos that they would publish. You know, what kind of setup, what kind of mood, what kind of, you know, what kind of colors. You know, I would really try to mimic those in my own way. And. And then you kind of, like, find your rhythm and style with the photographer that you really love and, you know, kind of go from there. And, you know, I have yet to work with a stylist, and I think it's because I'm so obsessed with, like, how each, you know, shot looks. And I don't. If there's too many voices in the room, it gets very hard to say no or disappoint someone's opinion. You don't want to do that. It's a very private process for me. So, you know, like, I kind of just learned to, you know, look at the photos that these publications like, and I. I want to kind of bring that to my, you know, my projects, but with my own voice.
- [11:30]
Unknown
I want to talk about your voice. You came into the industry by working on your own home. As you started to work for clients, how did you balance, you know, creating something for them but also zeroing in on. On your aesthetic, your creative output, your vision?
- [11:52]
Jae Zhu
Yeah. So I think, honestly, in the beginning, because I don't come from the industry, I did look at a lot of different work that the other designers are producing to make sure that I was meeting the standard no matter what client. I wanted to make sure that I was doing things right. Then, you know, after, you know, honestly, some validation and some jobs that you get that you kind of know that people trust you, you start to inject more and more of your voice into the. And after a while, what I really learned is that successful projects are really all about the clients and what they love. So I'm not one of those designers that push my clients to do something that they, you know, they're not really comfortable with. I want to elevate, you know, what they love already into something and show them a creative vision with what they already connect with. And that kind of works for me, where I get to have a bunch of different styles of portfolio because each client wants different things, and I get to kind of explore different vision within the themes and the values that they have. So for me, it's really about Each project is entirely different, and if my voice comes through those in certain ways, I love that. But I'm always approaching projects in a completely different way every time.
- [13:15]
Unknown
Where do you go for inspiration now?
- [13:17]
Jae Zhu
I always look at these historic homes, and that's kind of where I got started with the love of insert design is these, like, castles in Europe with these, like, portraits with, like, gilded frames that are, like, hung up all over the walls without any, like, sort of order. Like, those kind of photos, like, really inspire me. Like, it's very exciting for me. So I'm. I'm always kind of looking for those historic reference and trying to modernize it in my own way, like translate in a different way.
- [13:48]
Unknown
There's a huge translation process happening there, I feel like, because I'm looking at your portfolio right now, and I don't see, like, gilded Renaissance portrait here.
- [13:55]
Jae Zhu
Yes, yes.
- [13:56]
Unknown
But you're, You're. You're. You're turning it into something that's, you know, maybe like 12 steps away. What does that look like internally?
- [14:03]
Jae Zhu
Oh, God. Yeah. I have my own rules. And this. It took me so long to even translate them or say that I'm out loud to my team to even know what it is that I want. I would always say, like, I want something. Something weird. I want something off. I don't want something to be perfect. That was always like. I don't want something to be too pretty or predictable, all this stuff. But now I think really what it is is playing with balance and playing with old and new. You know, I don't want the room to have this overwhelming feel of anything. I want it to be balanced between. If there's the, you know, gilded frames, I want there to be, like, almost like hilariously modern bed in it. You know, something that kind of contrasting and interesting at the same time. But. But something like that. I think I'm always kind of looking for that sort of a contrast. Yeah, yeah. It's the fun part.
- [14:55]
Unknown
Where is your work today? Are you still concentrated primarily in Brooklyn or has your kind of scope of work expanded?
- [15:01]
Jae Zhu
Oh, so I'm in Tribeca, and it's really expanded. Like, a lot of my projects in the past few years have been downtown New York, just Tribeca, SoHo. I've wrapped, like, four of those projects last year and this year. And this year, I actually signed two projects in Bellport and in West Hartford. So it's getting more suburban and it's getting to be more of, like, these completely different style homes. I have this, like, crazy historic property that I'm working on in Hudson that's like that. We're restoring and reserving almost every single details that it came with. So it's, it's, it's really fun working on all these, like, different projects with a completely different feel.
- [15:45]
Unknown
How do you think about the responsibility of a restoration project like that?
- [15:52]
Jae Zhu
A lot of it is tedious. A lot of it is a lot more expensive than buying new. So it's, it's a, it's something that you really have to cherish and, you know, put value in it. You know, if you really want to follow that route, then we can. But it's a lot slower and expensive process. Like the Hudson house, we're restoring every single windows into the original mechanism of the windows. So, like the chains and the hardware, everything will be replicated into what it always have been. And it takes a long time, but, you know, it's very special.
- [16:27]
Unknown
It also costs a lot.
- [16:29]
Jae Zhu
Yeah, it costs a lot. It goes a lot. And it's, you know, it's like the clients have to appreciate that. I'm not going to force that on somebody, you know, really. But if it's meaningful to you, then, you know, of course, you know, of course that's the right way.
- [16:44]
Unknown
When you look back on this career you've built, this business you've built, what part of running your firm has tested you the most as an entrepreneur?
- [16:54]
Jae Zhu
Oh, God. I think first it was creating a team for me because, you know, when these, some of my projects were successful online, you know, I felt the universe telling me to grow, grow, grow like this. This is your only time you need to exp. Expand the office, do it all.
- [17:12]
Unknown
What do you mean by you felt the universe telling you? Did you feel like I am ready for expansion or did you feel like what I see from the Internet and from the industry is that I'm supposed to expand?
- [17:23]
Jae Zhu
I think just from the industry. Like I, I could feel that I'm.
- [17:28]
Unknown
Supposed to have a team, right?
- [17:30]
Jae Zhu
I could feel that I'm supposed to have a team. And you know, my team was just me and two other people and it was going great. And I really never really. Because I don't take on that many projects. I know my limits. But it just felt like even though, let's say if I'm collaborating with an architect, you know, they expect me to have a 10,000 square foot office with, you know, like project manager 1, 2, 3. It's not like that. You know, I like to keep my business where I'm still designing. I don't want to manage 20 designers. That is absolutely not what I want to do, at least for now. So it was like I really needed to make sure that I'm growing, but growing the right way, which I learned was that I can't hire a bunch of designers because I like to design and they're coming to me and they want to design and they're going to feel very bored and underappreciated if they're just doing technical stuff. So I knew that I don't know how to do the technical stuff. So I hire two people who just, you know, does drawings and, you know, I like to do the creative stuff. You know, that's really what I love the most. So I have to build the right team. So everybody's kind of collaborating together and they're, you know, doing their best, thriving in their own best way.
- [18:39]
Unknown
So it's you plus two, is that right?
- [18:41]
Jae Zhu
Right. No. So now I have two technical designers. I wrote one project manager and a bookkeeper. But I think also I need to hire a procurement manager soon because it's pretty crazy.
- [18:56]
Unknown
Were there missteps in hiring that made you realize that you couldn't have someone else who wanted to design? Or was that something you sort of saw ahead of time?
- [19:05]
Jae Zhu
Oh, no, I, I have some missteps for sure. You know, I, you know, I feel very lucky that I get a lot of emails with people in college, you know, just graduating, you know, wanting to work. And I've had a few of those situations where I did work with them, but they want to source the furniture, they want to design the rooms, and really it's hard to let them know that that's not really, you know, what I'm looking for. Hiring a entry level designer. There was some difficulties figuring that out. Making sure, you know, I want them to be happy. I don't want them to find their job boring or tedious. So there were some steps that I had to take that to kind of make it all work. Yeah. So everybody was kind of contributing meaningfully without feeling a certain way.
- [19:56]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [20:33]
Jae Zhu
When.
- [20:33]
Unknown
Did you add a project manager to the mix and what did that, what did that change for you three years ago?
- [20:38]
Jae Zhu
It's. I needed one because that's not my favorite part of the job. And I also realized like having someone in between you and the client and that stressful moment to just kind of being the liaison between, it's very helpful. It's, you know, one degree away and you know, you kind of know that it's getting taken care of and it's, it's, it was, it felt like it was very needed. So I feel like project management is like a huge part of the business where you know, you have to meet client expectations and make sure that everything's going right. So hiring a responsible person who's a great communicator was a very important thing.
- [21:20]
Unknown
Where do clients see you and where are they working with that project manager?
- [21:24]
Jae Zhu
Where.
- [21:24]
Unknown
How do you divide that up, up.
- [21:25]
Jae Zhu
Project managers usually really work with the architects or the construction management to like, it's really behind the scenes part where we hope that the problems that my project manager is calling me about doesn't even get to the client. So it's really about damage control even before it becomes any sort of a damage. So that's really where I have my manager go there and just report every single possibility of problem that could even arise.
- [21:52]
Unknown
That's great.
- [21:53]
Jae Zhu
I realized that that's all that matters. You got to be transparent. You got to let you know, you got to know everything. You got to really have your eye on every single thing to know that project is going to be successful.
- [22:04]
Unknown
What else? You said there were a couple things. What else was on your list of things that Roadblocks in entrepreneurship?
- [22:11]
Jae Zhu
Also another part was, I mean, honestly, there's a lot of pressure just from the industry alone. You're operating on your own and you get to see your peers here and there for these events that you get invited to, but not really talking about the real thing, you know?
- [22:25]
Unknown
Right, right.
- [22:26]
Jae Zhu
You should talk about how great you're doing, how great your project is and.
- [22:29]
Unknown
How everything working on this amazing thing. Yeah, totally.
- [22:31]
Jae Zhu
Yes, exactly. That's all you're talking about. And nobody ever wants to even get to the core of the problems, you know. And I think, I think just that alone, like feeling like, am I doing things right? Am I meeting the industry standard? Like, am I growing the right way? Like all of those things, things start to get to you. But honestly, like my, the best advice that I've gotten is like, just keep your head down. You just have to focus on what you like and then see where it goes. If You. If you try to kind of control, like, the, you know, where the project will go or, you know, how it's going to be received, like, it's. It's just going to put limitations on your creativity. So I just try to block it out. But, yeah, there's a lot of industry pressure always. Like, yesterday I get an email from somebody from a publication being like, okay, how many projects are you working on? Like, what are you working on? Please let us know. Like, in my mind, it's like, what if I did assign these two new projects last week?
- [23:30]
Unknown
You're like, zero. Yeah.
- [23:32]
Jae Zhu
It's like, you know, I better be busy, you know, because I want to. I want them to keep checking on me. It's a huge compliment that they are even checking on me. So, you know, I want to say something exciting.
- [23:42]
Unknown
Yeah. You mentioned earlier that you. You've really intentionally kept the number of projects you take on small. What is the range of, like, what's comfortable with the team you have?
- [23:55]
Jae Zhu
I know that my limit is around like, eight. I don't even want to take more than that. And I've started taking on only renovation projects. So right now I don't even have any furnishing, only projects. So it's enough for me at least, you know, with my team. It's. It just feels like. I mean, because each project takes like three years, you know, it's. It's. It's a huge process, and you're kind of needed throughout the entire thing. So I, you know, I just tried to keep it at. At that. And right now, when I wrapped, too, so I signed two, and, you know, I probably won't sign until I wrap the other ones. It's just kind of works for me to kind of focus on these projects and just again, like, kind of have my hands on every single part of it. I've. I've had more employees in the past, and it was just so much work for me and so much more stress for me. So I think I just need to stay where I am, and I think this looks good for me at the moment.
- [24:55]
Unknown
When you have those jobs, you know, stretching three years and there aren't, you know, a million of them. How do you make the cash flow work? How have you structured the finances of your business to match. Match the cadence of the work that you're doing?
- [25:10]
Jae Zhu
Yeah, so I do. I. There's three parts where I have a big flat fee in the front to kind of start, which would last us a while, like 50%. And as we hand off our drawings to arch tag, I charge another quarter. And before we even get into the construction, paid off the entire part of the phase one. And by the time we're done with that, you know, we're in the furnishing stage where we're charging 25 to 35%. And that covers us for the phase two, which really is me. You know, I'm doing all of the sourcing and procurement is going to get done separately. But yeah, it's. It's a lot of time and hourly. So I think that, yeah, that covers for the phase two and the phase three is our project manager. My time for just overseeing anything, we just charge hourly. It's not like a major cost, but it does keep people from calling about every problem.
- [26:09]
Unknown
Right, right, right.
- [26:10]
Jae Zhu
Yeah. And it's been a really good system. I've changed this around a lot of times, many times to see, like, what was the best. And I think this is the most fair and the best cash flow for us to us to be in.
- [26:22]
Unknown
As you hire that procurement employee, will you be billing hourly for the procurement work in addition to that percentage, or will that change just stay the percentage?
- [26:31]
Jae Zhu
I think it's probably gonna just stay the percentage, you know, 35%. I feel like it's. It's fair. And at this point, like, I think the time that we spend to source and to procure, I think it's. It's pretty fair.
- [26:46]
Unknown
Yeah. How are you talking to clients about money in general and about the way you charge specifically? How do you help them understand, you know, what the portion of their budget going to you represents?
- [26:58]
Jae Zhu
Sense. Yeah. So I, I've learned that putting it as a percentage is the most digestible way. And that's what the architects do, and that's what the, you know, that's, that's probably the easiest way to put it together. And honestly, sometimes up front, it's a big percentage of your total budget, but the moment that it starts, you kind of. Clients start to see the. The involvement, the level of involvement you. You have from the very beginning, just like. Yeah, breaking down as a phase one as. And then the phase two just kind of being like, you know, you explained the trade, pricing plus the percentage, you know, the usual. And then, you know, I think it's. It's starting to be. There's starting to be more understanding about it. You know, it's. It's. The more work that you have out there and the more, you know, press and publications and all of the stuff like it. All of these. Gets a little bit easier.
- [27:54]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah.
- [27:55]
Caitlin Peterson
Just.
- [27:56]
Unknown
Do you just mean that clients ask fewer questions or. Or you're attracting the clients who get it? Or.
- [28:02]
Jae Zhu
I think, you know, the unrealistic budget. Clients start to filter out when you have these projects that are out and, you know, you talk about how long it takes and, you know, you have to buy these pieces from Paris and an auction and how you, you know, it's all of the process just. You just know that, you know, this feels like a lot more involved than, you know, know what you would like to do.
- [28:25]
Unknown
Yeah, you mentioned that, you know, you frame the cost as a percentage of the project budget. Is that actually how you're calculating your flat fee for the design work? Or is that more like just kind of normalizing a big number?
- [28:39]
Jae Zhu
I think normal. It's more of a normalizing a big number. So the phase one kind of goes into my hours and the technical designing and the rendering, which is of freelance, but all of those kind of go into it also, like the surveying cost, like, just the whole part. So I realized also, like, when you calculate it, it just does come down to a certain percentage always, you know, so it's just better. It's just better to just put it in that way to make it more. More easy to understand.
- [29:10]
Unknown
Did the way you bill have to evolve as you hired or what sort of pushed you to find this model for yourself?
- [29:21]
Jae Zhu
It's just trials and errors. It's just the hourly billing. I hated it so much. I hated sending the hourly. It's like my least favorite saying. And I felt like, oh, my God, this is a lot. I've spent this many hours looking for your sofa. I feel like nobody really wants to see that, so. Because also, you know, I really think clients are paying less, not paying hourly, because, you know, designers obsess over these details. You know, they're. This is their passion. So sometimes you don't even know how many hours you're spending on a project. So, yeah, like, it was trial and errors, but it ended up being the most fair system and digestible for clients. And for me to explain, how do you source.
- [30:05]
Unknown
You know, you mentioned, you know, shopping at auctions in Paris, but where are you. Where are. Are you looking for the products you're placing in your projects?
- [30:12]
Jae Zhu
I mean, I do a lot of first dibs. A lot of. Now I have these vendors a lot in Connecticut, these antique dealers that I go and they will send me pictures of the stuff they get. I use a lot of vintage pieces of my. My work. And also there are just like, so many interesting furniture Stores in New York City that, that are around the neighborhood of Tribeca and soho, where I'm always trying to use new stuff, you know, without trying to be too like, trendy or, you know, replicate each time. But yeah, like, I'm, I'm always looking for new stuff and I, I don't like to use the same stuff in my project. So sourcing is a huge effort for me.
- [30:52]
Unknown
I love that you are doing such like, elevated avant garde work. And I wonder, like, where did like the visual vocabulary come from for you?
- [31:07]
Jae Zhu
Yeah, I just like when things look like a beautifully created mess. So, you know, I want things to look natural, you know, like, I love the live in feel. I don't like like an immaculate bedroom with like, you know, puffed pillows and like four blankets. You know, I really love that those homes that look almost like so bare, but there's these interesting moments and colors that you're just like, oh, what about this do I love so much? Like, why, why is this so charming? And so, you know, I'm always kind of looking for that off kilter color contrast or, you know, like sizes or things that I can make it a little bit different. But yeah, I think I feel like that just kind of fits my personality, my business or everything just feels a little bit different than the norm. And I'm always trying to be, trying to make sure that I'm doing it right as an industry standard.
- [32:01]
Unknown
What, what does industry standard mean to you?
- [32:04]
Jae Zhu
So, like, for example, like, I've had this project in, it's a Boston brownstone project, and I had used this like humongous lamps besides the bed and these tiny paintings above it. And I got roasted on Instagram. I literally have never gotten so much hateful comments like, this designer needs to quit her job. And it was like this like crazy reaction, right? And to me, it was just like, like, I want an interesting composition somehow. I, I don't want a regular room, you know, so it made me really, made me think a lot. I'm like, oh, maybe like people hate this, but I love it.
- [32:41]
Unknown
Like how your client loved it, right?
- [32:44]
Jae Zhu
Yes, yes, yes. But it's like you also think I'm like, oh my God, is my client gonna see this post?
- [32:49]
Unknown
Right, right, right.
- [32:51]
Jae Zhu
But it's like, you know, I really, you have to believe it in your vision. You just have to believe in your idea and like executed and know that it's, it's, you know, it's on the level of like, still tasteful and acceptable, you know? You know, it's, it's it's. I just, I try to just not care about that, but, you know, it's always in the back of my mind, am I going to be roasted for this?
- [33:14]
Unknown
You've had big reactions to your work?
- [33:16]
Jae Zhu
Oh, huge reactions. Yeah. Like, so my, like my biggest project, which was the online, which is the Brooklyn Townhouse project, this huge corporation had, like, made these furniture pieces that really resembled my project. So it was like they made the side tables and chairs and then they reached out to my clients to shoot those pieces in my project. I didn't know anything about it. And it dropped online one day on social media and, like, I got tons of messages being like, oh my God, like, did you collaborate with this brand? Like, they did all these things and, and I just, like, I was like, I mean, this is so flattering because, you know, I, I didn't, you know, think that this would happen, but I also felt like, oh, my God, like, once something gets a lot of attention and people want to make it a look right away, they want to just overkill, you know, they want to, like, make everything a fluted fireplace. They want everything to be plaster. And I, I feel like that those kind of things did kind of surprise me a bit, but I feel like, like it's all good for your business at the end of the day.
- [34:18]
Unknown
Even the hate.
- [34:19]
Jae Zhu
Even the hate.
- [34:23]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [35:03]
Unknown
What are you looking for in a client? Or how are you determining these days who's going to be game to go on that journey with you?
- [35:13]
Jae Zhu
Honestly, it's all about the trust. You just know right away. I can sometimes tell from like the initial phone call how it'll go. So, like, if I'm suggesting these, like wild scale art or like, you know, like something that's like a little bit unusual, I am hoping and there is that there's some understanding that I really do believe, strongly believe that this is the best choice for them. You know, I'm always like, trying to stem it from like, what I think they will like. And I think that's kind of my superpower is that I try really hard to understand them. I really put in an effort, and I am a chronic client befriender. Everyone tells me. Everyone tells me that I should not do it, but I honestly can't help it. Like, I just sometimes like them so much. And I do build strong relationships. You know, I do form meaningful bonds with almost all of them. And I think that really helps me coming up with, like, some, you know, the ideas that the clients I can both agree with, but something that still stands out.
- [36:14]
Unknown
What is that discovery process like? And what are the kinds of questions you're asking to get to know them, to understand what they would want, and to kind of tease that out of them?
- [36:24]
Jae Zhu
Recently, I just had this project with my client who. Who I became really good friends with. I've been on two trips already.
- [36:31]
Unknown
You're not kidding about being friends. I thought you meant, like, dinner party friends. You're like, vacation together friends.
- [36:36]
Jae Zhu
Yes. Okay, together friends. And it's like, you know, she's from. She's from China, and she isn't so in this, like, modern loft. And I think she, like, really missed and wanted to be around things that. That she grew up with, but also what she values and what, you know, and it was, like, a journey to find these pieces. You know, like, we have these dining chairs from Shanghai that we just got delivered, and all these, like, amazing screens from Japan and China. Like, we really are intentional with what we source. You know, I don't want to just put a mural because it's what's beautiful at the moment. Like, I want this to feel like them. I want their home to feel really, just really like them.
- [37:24]
Unknown
We talk a lot on this show about how a principal's role evolves as their business matures. How have you seen your role change within your business, and where do you think your role is going? I know you said you want to stay hands on, but where have you felt that sort of evolution internally?
- [37:44]
Jae Zhu
Generally, I've just become more understanding of challenges and crisis, and I just have a much better grasp of, like, how to solve problems. And I think not having a grasp of that could stress out your entire team. You know, in also, like, when I was a younger designer, I just really felt the need to enforce strict boundaries and carve out, you know, like, spaces for my role and their role and things like that. But I think things are more flexible. So now I know that I've learned how to navigate difficult moments between the team and between the clients, which kind of makes the process smoother for everyone.
- [38:20]
Unknown
What does it take to cultivate that within yourself?
- [38:24]
Jae Zhu
I mean, everything, honestly. It's because you have to solve the problem that arise during your renovation. So it's. It's something you're gonna have to. It's a step that you have to get to. And I think stressing out about it only makes things confusing and complicated for everyone. So also, now just. I just have more context where, like, let's say, like, if there's a leak this art or just fell off the wall or, like, something's crooked, I know who to contact, and I know who to call to fix these things right away. It comes with time. You know, when you're young, you feel like it's the end of the world. But it's like, now I know this guy, and so I know this guy in trouble, this guy in upstate. Like, I can call, and they'll go fix it. And, you know, we. We have a solution. And if you're not a grounding force for your team or your clients, everything starts to fall apart. So, you know, like, I have to really believe in how I feel. And I think, you know, with time and experience, it just came naturally.
- [39:22]
Unknown
What constitutes a work crisis today?
- [39:26]
Jae Zhu
Geez. Honestly, it could be. It could be from the very beginning to end. Like, recently, I had this thing where we're signing a job, and because, you know, I'm a designer who's constructing a team, like, hiring the architect, hiring the contractor. So, you know, they're having these conversations. They were trying to have these conversations on the side, and, you know, and we weren't aware, and there's miscommunications happen. And, you know, I think it's just, like, sitting them down. You know, they're much older than me. They're men, and, you know, like, the construction crew. And I have to, like, be like, listen, like, stop having these conversations. This is not acceptable. And, you know, it. It sometimes doesn't sit well. But you just have to, like, really let them know how we have to work in a harmonized environment, or this is going to fall apart. We can't blame each other. Like, we can't. It just. It just can't be that way. And clients can trust you if you're just fighting each other, you know, So I am very honest. It recently just happened for the project that I signed. I said, I know you have a builder you love, but I think for a job this size, it's very important that we get different bids and we explore different options, because I don't Think. Think, you know, his business is big enough for this. And it's. It's a hard conversation because I don't want to tell people what to do. But I also care very much about how everything goes, and the process is smooth. So I'm very upfront, and I. You know, sometimes it sounds like I want to do everything. I want to hire everyone, you know, I'm in charge. But it really comes from a space there where I want things to go well. And it's just. Just my honest, you know, opinion. From my experience, the client is still.
- [41:01]
Unknown
Hiring those professionals and has the contract with them directly. Right. Or is that actually going okay? Okay. That's not going through your business?
- [41:08]
Jae Zhu
Yeah, I mean, I. I explore that. I've thought about that. It's not.
- [41:12]
Unknown
The liability of that is insane.
- [41:14]
Jae Zhu
I can't do it. It's not me. Yeah.
- [41:17]
Unknown
Do you have structures in place to make it clear now that you are sort of the pilot, that you are sort of running the job?
- [41:25]
Jae Zhu
Yeah, I think, honestly, did I manifest this because I. I started only taking projects where I could do it, and honestly, I have to say no for so long, and it felt bad because, you know, I. I didn't want to come off ungrateful. It just, like, just. It just feels bad to keep saying no, but I. I just knew my strength and I. I just really wanted to build a portfolio where I could show my everything. So I just started vetting projects where if I don't get to do everything, I just didn't take them.
- [41:54]
Caitlin Peterson
How do you ask that?
- [41:55]
Unknown
I mean, is that just about being straightforward, too? Is that just, like, it's.
- [41:59]
Jae Zhu
It's a risk? I mean, I had a client who had possibly the most famous architect in the team already and wanted me to be the designer. And I said, well, I want to design the kitchen and the bathrooms, because that's just what I like to do. And they. They went back and forth, and I think the architect probably didn't like that idea and I didn't get the job. But I also know that if I didn't get to do that, it's not going to be my, you know, favorite project or it's not going to be the project that I want to do. So it's. It's. Yeah, it was a lot of. I had to really vet it heavily.
- [42:33]
Unknown
How do you build consensus with those other, you know, partners, the architect, the builder? Like, what does it take to get everybody working in tandem on the same page and on time?
- [42:44]
Jae Zhu
I think a. Like, not blame really the blame game part, it just can't happen. Everybody has to really work as a team, so. So I try to never, ever talk about them in a way to clients where I think the builder's doing this wrong, the architect's doing this wrong. I'm just always presenting us as a one team. They're working for the client. So we have a lot of internal meetings. There's a lot of documentation, a lot of communication, and I make sure that everybody's always talking at the same time and not having side conversations. So it's really about setting the rule from the front and also knowing what. What builders use procore and, you know, what architects communicate, how, you know, what kind of system or systems are in place that the constant communication is happening. So, like, it's really about checking their standard and, you know, how they work and how they organize their time, too.
- [43:37]
Unknown
Have you shifted your. Your deliverables or the platforms you use then to kind of be more in sync with those professionals?
- [43:45]
Jae Zhu
Yeah, I mean, Proko is huge. It's. It's probably something that I found very annoying and keep up with in the beginning, but, oh, my gosh, like, being in all these remote projects that I can't do side fits every week, like, or every month, like, it's the best. You see progress every day. They tell you what's been done, how many hours of plumbers were there. Like, every single thing is just laid out and people just feel better because you know where your money is going, how the time is getting spent, and it just. It's just a very helpful program.
- [44:18]
Unknown
We started this conversation talking about press and how that sort of amplified your business at the beginning, but I also wanted to kind of circle back to that and ask, you know, do you shoot every project? You know, you said you're strict about the look, but, like, is every project publishable? How. How do you weigh what to do with the firm's output?
- [44:43]
Jae Zhu
No, I don't shoot every project. But it's funny because, you know, those, like, smaller projects in the past, they. There's a press for those that you could really use. So, like, for example, Wall Street Journal would ask for, like, you know, certain articles. Like, or do you have, like, a project that's like this or that? And I had this small project that I. It was perfect for what they were looking for, and it got printed, like, the entire page.
- [45:09]
Unknown
And is that, like, do you have one room? Do you have a before and after? Do you have something that illustrates this trend, or was it really about that project?
- [45:17]
Jae Zhu
Well, no, it was illustrating a trend. Exactly. It was like. It was something about a gallery wall or something.
- [45:23]
Unknown
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:24]
Jae Zhu
And it was like, it was like a small project and it got printed. And it's. Sometimes some projects are perfect for something like that. There's different press for, you know, that, you know, AD or ED won't pick it up because you can't see the bathroom or whatever, or kitchen. But it's like. It's like if you. There's. There's some. Yeah. Things you can do with these smaller projects that are, you know, very useful for your business too.
- [45:48]
Unknown
How do you decide where you're gonna shoot and where you're not?
- [45:52]
Jae Zhu
Honestly, I feel like by the end of it, like, how the project ends and if they're those projects where a client kind of want to leave some room for them to sit with and do the art later, and which I'm totally happy about, but, like, you know, I can't shoot unfinished projects with, like, borrowed art. You know, I don't want to do that. So, you know, I just shoot projects where I can really, like, have. Feel like that it's finished.
- [46:20]
Unknown
Have those experiences of having the client who. Who wants to let it breathe a little bit. Are those jobs that you would maybe not say yes to now?
- [46:28]
Jae Zhu
Yeah, probably not.
- [46:29]
Unknown
Okay.
- [46:31]
Jae Zhu
Those are like, you know, those are like the, you know, few years ago and now I'm like, so not. Not. Our buying is a huge process in my business, like, if not one of the biggest. And I love it so much where, you know, I work with these galleries and, you know, they send me these new artists and my clients buy. It's. It's funny because, like, these projects evolve and they evolve too. So, like, even when we started with just renovation and furnishing, by the time we're wrapping up, maybe their financial situations better or they want to be an art collector. And, you know, and that's happened to me many times where after, like, three year renovation, they're like, okay, now I want to spend money on art and I want to collect like, six, seven pieces this year. I'm like, all right, let's do it.
- [47:17]
Unknown
How do you think about the firm's evolution as you look ahead? Like, when we look at your career in the next five years, 10 years.
- [47:25]
Caitlin Peterson
What do you want us to see?
- [47:27]
Jae Zhu
You know, I want to keep working on projects with people that I enjoy working with and, you know, these deeply designed, focused projects where it's. Whether it's a historical restoration or like a ground up contemporary glass house, you know, I want to be able to really get in there and create something special. And I love to eventually expand into products because, you know, I feel like I find myself repeatedly designing the same custom pieces with my mill worker for billion dollars. So I just want to have a shop where, you know, I, you know, I have things that I love to use but more accessible. But I, I think at the moment I'm really happy to grow naturally and just keep working on the projects, you know, better and bigger and great projects with nice clients.
- [48:23]
Unknown
What does success look like for you today?
- [48:28]
Jae Zhu
I think just having good reputation and always just like being able to wrap these three four year jobs successfully to me is, is, you know, is success. I think there's so many variables, so many difficult moments to happen. But, but staying consistent and professional and being a person that your clients and the team can trust and kind of being that anchor is important. I think being able to do that and be that person that people can trust is successful to me.
- [49:05]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening.
- [49:09]
Unknown
If you'd like to keep up with.
- [49:10]
Caitlin Peterson
The latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@trade talesusofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Caitlin.
- [49:35]
Unknown
Peterson and Caroline Burke.
- [49:37]
Caitlin Peterson
This episode was edited by Carol Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson.
- [49:44]
Unknown
Thanks again for listening and I'll see.
- [49:46]
Caitlin Peterson
You back here next week.