How Luis Fernandez structured his firm to foster creativity

Summary

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Trade Tales: How Luis Fernandez Structured His Firm to Foster Creativity

Podcast: Trade Tales
Host: Kaitlin Petersen, Business of Home
Guest: Luis Fernandez, Interior Designer/Architect
Date: September 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Trade Tales, host Kaitlin Petersen sits down with the innovative designer Luis Fernandez. With a unique trajectory from architecture to fashion and back to design, Fernandez shares how his creative journey shaped his approach to running a firm focused on both creativity and efficient structure. He opens up about crafting his firm’s financial backbone, managing clients’ growing expectations, setting boundaries, and exploring the Metaverse as a new design frontier. The conversation is a robust look at how balancing creativity with business systems can foster success, happiness, and growth in the interior design industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Inspirations and Career Pivots

• Childhood Spark (02:58): Fernandez recalls a formative school assignment where he drew his house plan and developed a fascination with floor plans from real estate magazines.

  • Quote: “I would sit there and study the floor plans with the pictures and try to correlate those two. And it kind of awoke in me this idea that you could depict spaces in this two dimensional floor plan.” (02:58)

• Fashion Foray and Architecture (04:11):
  His career in fashion started as a hobby but evolved into a major business, giving him unexpected opportunities to flex his architectural skills in store and show design.

2. Starting A Firm After Magazine Recognition

• Launching into Interiors (05:45):
  After restoring a mid-century home in LA, the project’s feature on the cover of ELLE Decor propelled Fernandez back into the design world and led him to officially open his firm.

3. Adapting to Residential Work

• Transition from Large-Scale to Personal Projects (08:45):

  • The shift from major commercial projects to intimate residential design demanded adaptation – emotionally and procedurally.
  • Quote: “Your job ends up becoming more of...like a symphony director, where I’m hearing you, I see what you’re thinking, but I need to make sure that it fits into the full part of the project.” (09:55)

• Emotional Labor and Client Boundaries (11:21):

  • Fernandez discusses the unexpected emotional demands of residential work, including his natural tendency to want to please clients – sometimes to his own detriment.
  • He draws clear lines for himself after a client expected near-constant companionship: “At some point you’re like, I’m a professional. I can’t be here all day long to like have multiple discussions about a lampshade for four days.” (12:12)

4. Selecting Projects and Clients

• Red Flags and Saying No (13:05):
  • Fernandez now prioritizes client energy over just the project scope, declining clients who undervalue design or see their designer merely as a cog in a profit-driven flip.

5. Firm Financial Structure & Billing Experiments

• Billing Models Explored (14:30 - 18:20):

  • He describes challenges with hourly billing, flat fees, and percentage-of-budget structures, currently experimenting with pricing per square foot for clarity and fairness.
  • Quote: “Hourly…because a client never fully understands how much time goes into something. And then there’s also…how do you build the non tangible?” (16:13)

• Retainers and Phased Payments (20:07):

  • Implements a 20% upfront, non-refundable retainer due to the heavy investment early in projects; the rest of the fee is split into project phases, adapting billing to project timelines.
  • Addresses the idea of adding “time expire” clauses if projects linger beyond a set duration.

• Project Management & Contractor Involvement (23:53):

  • Now bills project management hours beyond a set threshold, encouraging clients to hire quality contractors, candidly noting how cheaper contractors often lead to more work for him.

6. Managing Procurement and Limiting Liability

• Streamlining Purchases (25:09):
  Fernandez avoids direct purchasing to sidestep liability and bookkeeping headaches, having clients pay vendors directly and use fulfillment services that inspect deliveries.

  • Quote: “The bigger piece for me that’s always a driver is what is the cost of liability?” (25:43)

• Quality Control Concerns (27:05):
  Reports a significant share of items arriving damaged, changing vendor loyalty based on how issues are resolved.

7. Client Relations and Communication

• Boundary-Setting in Communications (28:53):
  He confronts challenges with clients who want to be deeply involved, sometimes overwhelming themselves (and him) with details via group texts and multiple communication channels, advocating ultimately for streamlined, email-based documentation.

• Budget Education (32:39):

  • Fernandez strives to help clients understand where to invest, sharing stories like a client’s desire for marble bedroom floors over higher-quality plumbing fixtures.

8. Organizational Systems and Structure

• Borrowing from Architecture (36:31):
  Fernandez’s architecture background shapes his love for systems:

  • Quote: “The design process is messy and kind of non linear. So if all your other processes around that can be very rigid, then I think you’re sort of set up for success.” (37:14 & 00:02)

• Collaboration with Other Architects (37:56):
  Prefers a mix—some projects are full-architecture/interiors by his team, others involve working with an architect of record or layering onto an existing architect’s work.

9. Expanding into the Metaverse

• Digital Design During the Pandemic (40:02):

  • During the NFT craze, he was commissioned to design a house for the Metaverse, finding creative freedom in the absence of physical constraints.

  • Quote: “You could build without materiality, you could build without physics. So how could that be a different expression of creativity that doesn’t have to mimic the real world but without becoming kooky and outlandish and weird?” (42:32)

  • Humorously recalls a client's unexpected request: “Okay, fine, no bedroom, but we’re going to need a sex room. ...This Metaverse thing is going to be huge.” (43:16)

10. Growth, Staffing, and Vision for the Firm

• Staying Lean and Concierge (48:43):
  He prefers working alone or with a few freelancers, embracing the ability to offer personalized, principal-led service. Growth isn’t about scaling to a team of 40, but maybe to 10—maintaining balance and client experience.

• Industry Peer Pressure (50:23):

  • While peers’ stories about running large firms seem “painful,” he values balance and the “slower, but better” path.

• Product Collaborations and Side Projects (51:05):

  • He envisions more product lines, installations, and non-client-driven “special projects” in addition to traditional design work.

11. Defining Success

• Personal Measures of Success (52:34):
  • “It sounds so cheesy...happy mind, happy life. ...the less worrying and the more you’re able to create and build beautiful things, I think that’s success.”
  • He admits his approach isn’t profit-first, but is confident that when you stick with doing the right work, profit eventually follows.

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Memorable Quotes

• On Residential Design vs. Commercial Work
  “You get those texts at 6am on a Saturday.” (09:53, Luis Fernandez)

• On Client Boundaries
  “At some point you’re like, ‘I’m a professional. I can’t be here all day long to like have multiple discussions about a lampshade for four days.’” (12:12, Luis Fernandez)

• On the Value of a Thank-You Note
  “There’s no price in the world that can beat that.” (06:24, Luis Fernandez)

• On Billing Models
  “Hourly...because a client never fully understands how much time goes into something.” (16:13, Luis Fernandez)

• On Procurement and Liability
  “What is the cost of liability?” (25:43, Luis Fernandez)

• On Process and Creativity
  “The design process is messy and kind of non linear. So if all your other processes around that can be very rigid, then I think you’re sort of set up for success…” (00:02 & 37:14, Luis Fernandez)

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Important Timestamps

• Career Origin & Real Estate Obsession: 02:58 – 04:45
• LA Move & Mid-Century Project: 04:55 – 05:45
• Residential Versus Commercial Design: 08:45 – 12:12
• Project & Client Selection: 13:05 – 14:20
• Billing Models & Processes: 14:30 – 18:20
• Retainers & Billing Phases: 20:07 – 21:56
• Buying Direct & Outsourcing Liability: 25:09 – 26:58
• Vendor Loyalty After Quality Issues: 27:05 – 28:04
• Managing Credentials, Threads, and Communications: 28:53 – 32:29
• Budget & Value Discussions with Clients: 32:39 – 35:51
• Process, Organization, & Collaboration: 36:31 – 39:55
• Metaverse and Digital Design: 40:02 – 44:56
• Hiring and Firm Growth Philosophy: 48:43 – 51:01
• Product Collaborations & Non-Client Work: 51:05 – 52:34
• Defining Success: 52:34 – 53:49

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Episode Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, spirited, and insightful, with a genuine tone—balancing open reflections on the challenges of design entrepreneurship with a palpable love for creative exploration. Fernandez combines self-deprecation with practical wisdom, frequently highlighting both the messiness of creativity and the necessity for structure.

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This summary captures the main ideas, insights, and memorable moments from Luis Fernandez’s episode, offering designers and creative entrepreneurs an inside look at building a practice that both supports and unleashes creative potential.

Transcript

[Luis Fernandez]

I always say the design process is messy and kind of non linear. So if all your other processes around that can be very rigid, then I think you're sort of set up for success.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in Chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm.

[Caroline Burke]

My hope is that you hear your.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Own why echoed in these stories, or an idea that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer whose boundless creative energy led him to a career in architecture and then fashion and ultimately interiors. Now he's intent on pushing the limits of his craft with new challenges like designing in the Metaverse and some special side projects that have no client attached to them. Along the way, he's establishing airtight systems to guide his firm's output even as his inspiration runs wild. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is sponsored by Regina Andrew, a luxury lifestyle brand specializing in lighting, furniture and decor. Born in the Paris of the Midwest, the brand's roots run deep in the city it calls home. The style and character of Detroit have shaped who they are, what they make, and how they make it. With a deep commitment to soulfully crafting heirloom quality items, Regina Andrews Pursuit of Inspiration has taken its team across the world to discover materials and forms that drive its designs.

[Caroline Burke]

Crafted with passionate attention to detail and.

[Caitlin Peterson]

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[Caroline Burke]

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[Caitlin Peterson]

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[Luis Fernandez]

When I was in 6th grade, our teacher gave us this assignment to draw a plan of your house and for some reason I took that assignment very seriously. I would go to the Magazine store or whatever at that point was the supermarket and buy the real estate magazines, which then at the end had a little card and you would bubble in the houses that you were interested in. So I would send them back and you know, these real estate agents probably got this back and thought, oh my gosh, this buyer from Miami interested in all these properties worldwide. And they would send me the marketing materials for all of these properties that were multimillion dollars. And so I would sit there and study the floor plans with the pictures and try to correlate those two. And it kind of awoke in me this idea that you could depict spaces in this two dimensional floor plan.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's Luis Fernandez. After pouring over all those real estate listings, he went on to earn his degree in architecture and then kicked off his career working for several big firms in York. He quickly learned that the job wasn't quite as exciting as he had hoped. And at the same time, a fashion business that he had started as a hobby soon turned into a full fledged career pivot that would keep him busy for more than a decade.

[Luis Fernandez]

I started this little T shirt brand, a little side hustle with a friend. We got picked up by a showroom. Overnight we went into 20 stores, mostly Japan. It snowballed into a full on menswear brand. We were showing in Fashion Week. I got into to the CFDA. That took 15 years of my career. I got to practice architecture when it came to designing our stores or designing the choreography and the spaces for our Fashion Week shows, which was another way of flexing that creative spirit.

[Caitlin Peterson]

After growing disenchanted with the fashion industry, Luis was ready for a new creative challenge. A move to the west coast gave him the fresh start he was looking.

[Luis Fernandez]

For eight years ago. Kind of exactly to the day we moved to la. It was at a time when I knew I didn't want to continue fashion. And in some ways the world of interior design and architecture seemed a lot more exciting and a lot more future forward than fashion did at the time. And so I did a house restoration of a mid century modern house here in la. And it was the first time that I was able to apply all the facets of the job, right? Architecture, interior design, landscape into one project. And that project very fortunately got published and got the COVID of El Decor in October of 2021. And it kind of just propelled me right back into architecture and interior design. And here we are now.

[Caitlin Peterson]

After the ELDECOR FEATURE In 2021, LUIS officially established his firm. I wanted to talk to him about how he's carefully considering how much liability he wants to take on with each new job, what he's learning while exploring different approaches to billing, and why he's appreciated this phase of working on his own rather than staffing up.

[Caroline Burke]

What happened next? You know, you get this. This article comes out. People you don't know start calling. How did you start to make sense of those calls and of how you wanted to approach designing especially for strangers?

[Luis Fernandez]

You know, I think you. You sort of adapt quite quickly. And then I think I. I didn't overthink it, obviously. You know, that writing that first contract was hard and. And talk about something that completely continues to evolve. And from every project, you learn how to, like, reframe the contract for the next project that you write. So it's been a learning lesson. And sure, have there been a couple projects where you should have set it up differently from the beginning, but you sort of just suck up the punches and keep moving, right? And hope that in the end you're creating a great project and that that'll, you know, kind of, again, launch the next one and, you know, just making sure that the clients in the end are happy. And so I've also been fortunate in that regard that have both become friends with the clients as a result of the process, and they're. And they're happy, and they send me notes, which is talk about, like, one of the. The biggest highlights of this profession, right? Like when a client sends you a note and says, I'm sitting here and I really am enjoying this space so much, I just needed to send you a note like that. That right there. There's no price in the world that can beat that. So, yeah, that part has also been really nice. And now once you start to learn the lessons and you get some inquiry calls, there are certain red flags that immediately you're like, nope, not for me. And it's not so much like, not a project for me, but sometimes maybe not a client for me.

[Caroline Burke]

I love that difference in, you know, the personal versus the. I don't want to characterize your early work as impersonal, but Dulles Airport and Barney's stores have less feelings, right, Than an individual homeowner. And there certainly may be less voices in the room. How did you have to adapt early on from, you know, I'm one of 30 people on this project to, all right, it's me and the homeowner, like, what did that require?

[Luis Fernandez]

That's a really good question. And it's funny because I've never fully thought about that. I mean, there's certainly a difference when you're working for a property management EP who does this all the time. Although the Barneys, that was quite special because those stores had so much soul and story and. But it is very different to have residential clients where, and especially if it's the type that these are, this is their hard earned savings and they finally get to design this house or restore this house or renovate this house. And that's, that's very different. And obviously it comes with a lot of challenges because it is more emotional and you do get the calls. I literally just got an email from new clients a couple minutes ago with an inspiration picture that they found. So it becomes a very emotional. And you know, you get those texts at 6am on a Saturday.

[Caroline Burke]

I was just thinking, yeah, exactly.

[Luis Fernandez]

And I think what I keep reminding myself is that your job ends up becoming more of. Or my job ends up becoming more of like a coordinator or like a symphony director, where I'm hearing you, I see what you're thinking, but I need to make sure that it fits into the full part of the project. Proportions, scale, you know, like, everything has to be addressed because it's very easy. And this is one of the things I've noticed is becoming slightly problematic. There are so many of those AI rendering images out there that clients keep sending me, and it's like, okay, but that's not a real space. And I'm all for it. I love the inspiration aspect of that. But if a chair isn't depicted in the dimensions and the clearance that you need around that chair to make that space work, then that image sort of fails as that inspiration. Right? Like, you can't achieve that and still step into it. And so I think that that's becoming like the new client education, where it's like, okay, I love that image, but let me tell you why we can't do that. I mean, talk about an industry. When you go into residential design where you're, you're a therapist, you're a counselor.

[Caroline Burke]

Were you prepared for that?

[Luis Fernandez]

Not as much as. Yeah, no, I definitely was not. Not prepared for it. But you, you kind of. I mean, I guess I do have the natural disposition for that. And, and, and sometimes I would even think I'm a sucker for that. Right? Like, I, I get myself into situations and I'm a pleaser, so I try to like, make it all better all the time. And sometimes you're like, oh, my God, Gosh, I've only like, ended up firing one client because it just got too much to Be too much like the.

[Caroline Burke]

Things they were asking for or like what they asked of you?

[Luis Fernandez]

It was more what they asked of me.

[Caroline Burke]

Can I ask, like, what's the, what's the line for you? Like where or what kind of boundaries have you tried to put in place so that that continues to feel productive or positive? The emotional connection with a client, I think.

[Luis Fernandez]

I mean, in that particular case, they, they basically just wanted someone to be around all day long as entertainment companion. And it very much was a type of household which was like entourage driven. There were people around all the time and it was all about the circus for entertainment all day long. And at some point you're like, I'm a professional. I'm not, you know, I'm not like, I can't, I can't be here all day long to like have multiple discussions about a lampshade for four days. I understand that, like, you really want that entertainment value of that, but that's not, that's not what I can do. And so, so, yeah, so I had to bow out of that situation.

[Caroline Burke]

What makes you say yes to a job now?

[Luis Fernandez]

I think the client's energy, I think that's, that's super key. And then I think it's the projects when they're like, okay, we have no budget, we don't really want to pay a design fee, and we want to put the moon in our house. That's where you're like, hard. No, absolutely not. Right, right. And then I've said yes to a couple of those along the way. And not in a, you know, not big projects, but. And then they turn around and they flip the house for 10 times. And so you start to realize that you were kind of a cog in the wheel of a, of a flip project with no, with no gains. And I think that for like, especially in a place like la, New York also, I think I'm becoming more cognizant of that. Right. Like, your designer is not your, you know, is not someone who is part of your money making scheme. The minute that someone doesn't value the, you know, the, the industry and not want to pay a design fee, I think that that's a very telling part right there.

[Caroline Burke]

How have you structured the financial piece of the firm, the billing piece of the firm, and what informed your approach?

[Luis Fernandez]

I love that you asked that question. Like, I have a full grasp of it because I'm still trying to figure that part out. It's all still pretty grassroots, to be honest. It's the email every month that I hate sending to Clients. Right. Because again, there's a lot of self doubt in that process. Right. Are they going to receive this bill and be like, oh my God, what? You know why? Or are they going to receive this bill and be like, yes, you're not charging us enough. Which is never the case. But yeah, it's all very grassroots still. And that's the area where like my, my business has sort of doubled over the last two years every year. And so now it's getting to the point where it is becoming. I do need some structure and I do need a system around that.

[Caroline Burke]

What do you have in place now or how does it work now?

[Luis Fernandez]

I mean, I have an account management firm that helps me with, with all the, the big stuff, but on a daily invoicing that's still all just me. So like I don't do the purchasing myself. It always goes right to the client. And a lot of my friends are like, oh my gosh, like you could be. Or my industry friends are like, you could be like overcharging on that or you could be making profit on that. I figured out a way to do profit in a different way so that I'm not creating a crazy bookkeeping also job for myself.

[Caroline Burke]

Can you tell me more about that? How are you charging then?

[Luis Fernandez]

And I'm still exploring different versions of how to, how to build. So one of the latest ones that I'm testing right now is pricing per square foot.

[Caroline Burke]

Mm.

[Luis Fernandez]

And you can get a sense of the type of scope. Right. Is this a room that is going to be super tricked out and every millwork detail has to be, you know, drawn out in plan section elevation or is this a more simplistic project? Right. And so I think you, you can get a sense of that. And so I've been, I've been testing out this pricing per square foot on the recommendation of other industry friends as well. I've tried the hourly, which is hard. Hourly. Right. Because a client never fully understands how much time goes into something. And then there's also. How do you build the non tangible? If you're out shopping on a Saturday and you're discovering things as opposed to being sitting on a beach, how do you bill that time? You kind of don't. And so you leave somewhat on the table by billing hourly, I think. And then I try to avoid the flat fee. I always do a flat fee with a, either with a cap or an understanding of what, what led to the generation of that flat fee. But you know, in all the instances that I would go over the other One's the price per budget that's becoming harder. And it's definitely a discussion amongst my peers where if you price per budget, especially in today's world where we actually don't really know what things cost because of these tariffs, the price of labor that's disappearing, it's becoming really hard to price per budget. I also feel there's this perception from the client where they think you're always driving for more expensive things for a price per budget.

[Caroline Burke]

Do you mean just like a percentage of the budget?

[Luis Fernandez]

Yes. And that, I mean historically that's been, that's been a pretty robust way of billing for a long time. But that one's getting harder and harder because the cost of things is very kind of a roller coaster right now. But also that perception. And if, you know, when you talk to clients and they tell you their stories of working with the designer and working with an architect, they always feel that if that's the case, they're being kind of steer to something more expensive because they get a bigger profit. And so, and so I think to not build that way, I'm loving it because you could steer to get the better, nicer dining table, which is more expensive. But the client doesn't feel like I'm driving that because I'm making money off of that.

[Caitlin Peterson]

We're taking a quick break to remind designers of about one of the benefits of the Shade Store's trade program. Trade. Exclusive access to the Shade Store's com program for Roman shades, drapery and cornices. Combined with the Shade Store's extensive collection of more than 1,200 in stock materials. The creative possibilities are virtually endless. Visit theshadestore.com trade and sign up for a trade account today to learn more. When you are pricing per square foot.

[Caroline Burke]

Now that fee that the client pays represents all of the work that your firm will do for them. And then how often are you billing that like, is that just one big check? Is that spaced out throughout the course of a project or how does that, how does the money come in?

[Luis Fernandez]

Right now I have it set up so that there's a fairly hefty percentage that is a retainer and is non refundable. If you change your mind then I think I learned my lesson along the way where you do a lot of the heavy lifting and a lot of the emotional commitment to a project in those that first month or two and then the client would then three months in say, you know what, we decided we're not going to do this or we're going to sell the house and do something else. And so, and it's like, well, I've already kind of like fully vested myself into this.

[Caroline Burke]

What percentage are you charging at the start?

[Luis Fernandez]

I would say it's almost like 20% of the total fee upfront and then the remainder gets divvied up per phase. So at the completion of phase one is a percentage at the completion of the conceptual phase another and then with a small minor percentage at the end on completion and punch list. And that also if you are having to kind of supercharge the team to deliver five phases in one month and you have to ramp up your costs, then you get compensated for that in the five months. If that drags out the, say you know, over a course of several months, then, then it, the billing drags out as well. I actually, I had a conversation with a friend who is interviewing architects and she was asking me and I've seen this in several contracts where there's a time kind of like a time expire on a thing.

[Caroline Burke]

So like if you, if we don't finish this within X number of months, like you have to pay to restart.

[Luis Fernandez]

Basically or pay more. Like it becomes more expensive if this project lingers. Which is kind of an interesting thought and I'm trying to figure out how to structure that because yeah, like some of these projects can, can linger for no, you know, for no, none of your own doing. A lot of it is actually contractor generated. That's another thing where I, I'm trying to be cognizant of especially right now when getting contractors labor is becoming like again slightly more difficult than it's been a lot of that for like ice and all of that that's happening. But so many times like you're, you can have so much more work if the client decides to go with the cheap contractor. And I know that that's like not earth shattering news, but I'm realizing that where there are instances where I should have pushed my foot down and said no, we can't hire that contractor, one, because you're going to regret it. But two, it just, it makes a lot more work for me. And then, and then there's the, the, the factor of like the babysitting time and how do you bill babysitting hours?

[Caroline Burke]

I want you to put, I want you to call it that on your invoice. Like I babysit contractor for 14 hours this week.

[Luis Fernandez]

Yes, actually that's a great idea.

[Caroline Burke]

See how that goes over and let me know.

[Luis Fernandez]

Yeah, I mean it also kind of illustrates the fact that, and it's it's that saying, right? Like, you get what you pay for, but then, like, if you decide to, to save on the contractor and, and make your life miserable at the same time, then, like, I'm going to have to bill more.

[Caroline Burke]

Do you currently bill for the project management component?

[Luis Fernandez]

I had, up until recently I had included it, and it, you know, it becomes exhausting. It can be super easy, and with the right contractor, it can be a walk or it could be really, really tough. And so now I've started to adjust my contract where there's, there's a. A certain amount of hours of that construction, but then beyond that, then it becomes hourly. And I think that helps to. That helps with that whole lingering.

[Caroline Burke]

That might help people choose the better contractor, too.

[Luis Fernandez]

Yes. And, you know, it's important. I, I've never understood the designers that are not involved in the construction process. I mean, if I could, I would love to be there all day long, but that's obviously not sustainable. But the success of how something gets built and finished depends so much on you being there. I've never, I've never been part of a project where you can kind of just phone it in and, and it's.

[Caroline Burke]

Beautiful at the end.

[Luis Fernandez]

Yeah. And you arrive three years later and you're like, oh, my God, this is exactly what I drew. It just doesn't. It never happens that way.

[Caroline Burke]

I want to ask you one more money question because you mentioned a few minutes ago that you're really just funneling purchasing right to your clients. Can you tell me what that means? Because I think a lot of people listening to this will find that revelatory and maybe find the purchasing process to be one of the most painful.

[Luis Fernandez]

Yeah. I think, I mean, the parts that scare me there, I think with all of this, the bigger piece for me that's always a driver is what is the cost of liability?

[Caroline Burke]

That's a great question.

[Luis Fernandez]

I think when you are doing the purchasing and then just giving a bill to your client 2x or 0.25x or whatever, you now are buying that liability for yourself. And it's happening more and more where the quality control globally is kind of gone down the drain. And so that table arrives and it's the wrong thing from what was ordered. It's broken. It's. You've. You now have to address all of that. And so I think it's more liability. And so if you can. And bookkeeping. And so if you can just have that go back to the vendor, then that's kind of off your list. Of liabilities. I mean, I'm still building the order with the vendor, but then the, the actual execution of that order is done through the client. So because otherwise I would be buying it, I'd be taking it in, I then make that item appear on installation day for the client. There's just a lot more situations where that can go wrong.

[Caroline Burke]

Are you having stuff then sent directly to the client's home, like on a rolling basis, or are you still warehousing and then installing everything?

[Luis Fernandez]

Mostly. I mean, it depends on the stage of the project or the type, but. But yeah, going to, and I highly always suggest is going to a fulfillment like receiving place who then does the inspection upon arrival is, is priceless. I was on a project where, and this was a large house, I would say 75% of the items arrived damage broken. And this was, you know, a mix of high, low, and more high than low. But yeah, it was crazy. And I, at some point I, I kind of was like, is our tolerance level really low? Because this can't be. But no, I mean, I do think there's, there's something happening in the world right now where quality control is not at the highest that we, we've seen.

[Caroline Burke]

How do experiences like that inform where you want to shop or how you source in general?

[Luis Fernandez]

That's a really good question. I mean, it definitely has altered going back to the same vendor, and it's more of a, of a loyalty thing. If I have three instances with one vendor, I'm not going to go back there again. It's also about how they address it and fix it and make it better, which is that it's wild to see how differently that's addressed. Right. Like, certain people are like, oh my God, we're so sorry. We're going to do all of this to fix it and make it better and make the client happy. Other people, you almost have to like, argue with them to get it fixed.

[Caroline Burke]

Do clients see that process? Are you shielding them from that back and forth around damages, or are they sort of involved and updated in what's happening every step of the way?

[Luis Fernandez]

You know, for some reason, a lot of my clients so far want to be involved in the process, down to the nitty gritty. And, and half the time I'm like, but why don't you just want to like, arrive on installation day and everything's already set? And, and I think that's another of those learning lessons of kind of trying to encourage the clients to tune out a little bit. Exactly, exactly. I, I actually asked the client recently because he created a joint thread for the two clients, myself, the, like their PA and the contractor. And so every single question from the contractor on that text, they were exposed to. And some of it is normal day to day questions, but to a client, some of them felt like they were alarming and everything's wrong with the project. And so at some point I was like, do you really want to be on this text thread? Like, doesn't it drive you crazy that it's pinging all day long with random questions going back and forth? And so, and they, they said, no, we, we still want to be on it. So I think moving forward, I'm gonna try to not have that.

[Caroline Burke]

Does that create like kind of side problems for you to kind of like calm them down then, or have they been pretty.

[Luis Fernandez]

Yeah, a little bit. I mean, fairly mellow. But. But yeah, there were certain cases, there were certain times where it was like, you know, that I would have been alarmed if I was the client as well. But yeah, and also, I mean, that also has opened up this whole conversation of how do you communicate with clients and with the contractor? And that was a project where the contractor insisted on texting. And I feel like text for the purposes of administration of business and certainly construction is you can't search it, you can't archive it. And so I mean, literally things would get caught in the, in the text. And so they weren't actionable. And I think so as much as possible it was like, can we take this back to email where you can file, archive, save, do from your computer, put attachments, add, so that that whole communication with clients, because we now have so many vehicles for communication, is, is becoming problematic. Right, Because I, I have certain clients where there's text thread, multiple tech threads, depending on who's on it, email and then DMS on Instagram, if they're sending you something that they like or they comment on something you post. And so that's yet another kind of vehicle for like maintaining communication. And there was, oh, and then WhatsApp as well. And so kind of streamlining that conversation so that everything can get documented and recorded and filed is, is actually becoming somewhat of an issue. And, and the more that you steer people to email, I get it, it's so much easier to send a quick text.

[Caroline Burke]

Right.

[Luis Fernandez]

But it doesn't help the process.

[Caroline Burke]

How are you talking to clients about money, about what their budget is represents and about kind of how far their budget can take them?

[Luis Fernandez]

It's tough, right? No one sets out. I mean, I know we joke about it all the time. Like the. Oh, and there is no budget meaning, like it's endless. That doesn't really exist. The wealthiest clients are, in the end, the most frugal. And the more you can have that honest conversation and even in some cases education with your clients. I think there's always that misconception that expensive means precious means high design. And so it's not necessarily that it's going to be precious, but it's the opposite. Right. That it's well made and lasting. And. And then there's the conversation too, of where is the balance? Right. Like, where can you and I. I love that part of the conversation. Right. Not everything has to be a million dollars. The mix of high, low, the mix of different price ranges is actually what makes a project successful. But also where do you want to flex and where do you want to, like, be more frugal? And every client has a completely different right. Realm of what. Where they see the flex. I had a client who did not care whatsoever about, you know, the, the plumbing fixtures, so the faucets and which to me is like a big one.

[Caroline Burke]

A big place to invest, you mean or.

[Luis Fernandez]

Exactly. Yes.

[Caroline Burke]

Yeah. Okay.

[Luis Fernandez]

Like you touched that every day. Like the, you know, plastic versus actual metal makes a big difference. He yet loved marble. And we ended up doing marble slab flooring in the master bedroom. And as much as I tried to say, like, that is the worst place to put that money because half of it is going to be covered by a rug and the other half by a bed, that was. That was a place where they really, really wanted that. And so, you know, at some point, it's like you. I like to give the clients what they want. Right?

[Caroline Burke]

Yeah.

[Luis Fernandez]

I illustrated why I thought that was not a great use of. Of money, but that, that they wanted it. But, you know, and I think those are. That it's that conversation of like, balance at the end of the day and trying to understand why they have that value system. Similar anecdote. I have clients who absolutely do not want anything vintage. And I think it's a cultural thing. And this idea of living with other people's stuff, and then also this idea of like, you've succeeded, you've thrived in life, you should be able to afford new things, not old things that have been used. And, and it was just. It took me a while to understand that, but once I did, it made sense for that client.

[Caitlin Peterson]

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[Caroline Burke]

You had such a powerful kind of understanding of process from your architecture career. How did that inform what you started to put in place as your design business grew?

[Luis Fernandez]

I mean, I think all of it, right, because that is the way that my mind is geared and also like, I think that that background very much informs the way I think. I also feel that for a highly creative person, I also have that other side of me that is very every folder needs to be called out the same from project to project, every file. And so I kind of geek out when it comes to that type of like nitty gritty, detail oriented organizational structure. And that's helped a lot because I think I, you know, you, you can gain so much efficiency. I always say that the design process is messy and kind of non linear. So if all your other processes around that can be very rigid, then I think you're sort of set up for success because the more that your, your process can be very organized, then you can let the design be chaotic and experiment. You know, all of that.

[Caroline Burke]

How often are you working with another architect and how often are you doing the whole thing, architecture and design?

[Luis Fernandez]

I'm trying to think right now of like the, the projects I'm working on right now. There's a architect builder for one of them for project in Connecticut. There's. I've, I've got a new Palisades rebuild for that one. I'm doing all the architecture, interior or exterior. But I brought on an architect of record to work with me. So you know, eventually they'll start to take my files and turn them into the permit set and all of that. I've got a project in Costa Mesa that was started by an architect. So my, my interior architecture will then layer into theirs. So actually a lot, it happens a lot more than I was thinking.

[Caroline Burke]

Is the mix good or is there a perfect type of project for you?

[Luis Fernandez]

I think a mix is good. You tend to flex different, just different muscles with different projects. I'm just starting a new commercial showroom for a brand. I don't want to say yet, but it's a brand that we all know and love and so that's exciting because it's a totally different. It still feels residential because there's still the emotional attachment to it, but it's nice to start to get back to more of a commercial space. And then I'm working on this project, which is a purely digital project, for the first phase. And that. That's also interesting because you get to flex different muscles. It's actually taken me back a little bit to the. The days when I was designing Metaverse digital spaces and kind of developing those environments.

[Caroline Burke]

What got you into that or what. What was that like? How did you embark on some of the Metaverse work you were doing?

[Luis Fernandez]

That was. I mean, it's, it's fairly. It was fairly easy. It was during. During the NFT craze, during COVID when people couldn't be out and a woman asked me to come or commission me to design her Metaverse house. And when she approached me, I was like, I. I have no idea what that means, but I, you know, like, with everything, I, I became a student of it. I dug right in and. And I was like, oh, wait, this is kind of amazing.

[Caroline Burke]

Can I ask, how much do you charge for something like that? What does it cost to get a house designed in the Metaverse?

[Luis Fernandez]

Yeah, that was a different billing structure altogether, but it was in. You know, it's a more intensive process also because we were, oh, gosh, I'm going to geek out into this. What I, what I wanted to build didn't exist. Like, so basically a fully immersive space that was rendered super highly. So, like super high fidelity. There wasn't a place for that. And so a lot of the worlds that became popular were super pixelated. So I kind of. I approached it in a agnostic way when people would ask me, well, where. What world are you designing that house for? And it was like, I'm not designing for a world. I'm designing the best case scenario. And then we took it and applied it to all the different metaverses that existed at that time. But that was like. It was fascinating. And I think for me that still, I think one day will come around. I always told the story of, like, walking into my son's room during COVID and he was playing Minecraft with all his friends who were all in different places. They had, you know, they were in Minecraft, they were on messenger, texting, they were on FaceTime, so they could see their faces and speak. And I, I remember thinking like, oh, my gosh, that combination of all three of those, that. That's the Metaverse. It allows people to not be in the same space and. And still digitally and virtually cohabitate.

[Caitlin Peterson]

What was different about working with a.

[Caroline Burke]

Client to design a home for the Metaverse versus, say, working with one of the residential clients you're working with now?

[Luis Fernandez]

Very different. Right? Because it's kind of like a fun project, right? You don't have to be able to sleep in it. And for me was always. And this was a huge lesson from one of my architecture professors in college, and it was always like, question the why. And for me, it was like, okay, great, Metaverse space. But. But why and how is it different? That, for me was the fun part of it was that you. You could build without materiality, you could build without physics. So how could that be a different expression of creativity that doesn't have to mimic the real world, but without becoming kooky and outlandish and weird?

[Caroline Burke]

Right? Like, it's not floating in a cloud or something.

[Luis Fernandez]

Right. And so. And I think that was like, my why you also want there to be a semblance of reality also because it's what people are familiar with, right? And why we're not all walking around in video games, which are completely kooky and. But. But even in terms of, like, scripting. Right? I remember. And this. It always made for a fun story when I was doing, like, speaking on panels around the world on Metaverse. But I remember calling her one day and I was like, you know, this house doesn't really need a bedroom or doesn't really need a kitchen. You're not cooking, you're not sleeping in the Metaverse, so the. The programmatic functions are totally different. And she was like, oh, my gosh, you're right. And 30 minutes later, she called me back and she's like, okay, fine, no bedroom, but we're going to need a sex room. And I remember when she said that, I was like, oh, my gosh, this Metaverse thing is going to be huge.

[Caroline Burke]

Yeah, that's wild.

[Luis Fernandez]

This is going to be huge. Just because if you think of, like, what the porn industry has done for any innovative technology has, you know, usually made it thrive. And so I was like, oh, wow, okay. And so that one project that has this, like, floating, quote, unquote, sex room in the ocean. So it's. And those were, like, the kind of cool things that you could do in the Metaverse, right? Rooms could float in the ocean, but still make it tasteful and more to, like, what you would expect to see in a, like, a design publication.

[Caroline Burke]

Back to the real world for one second. You know, you mentioned that your business has experienced pretty profound growth in the last few years. How have you had to evolve the.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Way you approach the work?

[Luis Fernandez]

I think you, you have to get more systematic. I think through our conversation, you probably realize I'm a geek for systems and organization. And I think it also, you know, which a client who I've just finished two projects for, who is a CEO and, and a friend and he always advises me on like I could get carried away in the nitty gritty details. And it's amazing for like him as a client slash friend to be like, sometimes you just have to like move on, like decide and move on. The client is going to be happy with that. It doesn't always have to be designed to death. And I think that's been super helpful for me to, to hear, right, that sometimes I strive for that perfection, but the, the business model of that doesn't really work. And so it's how do you keep that in balance? And I, I think I have to become more cognizant of that. When you have more projects and you can't spend five days designing a perfect door handle, I mean, I'd be amazing and I'd love to, but it just doesn't make business sense. And so that's, I think, been one big thing and then staffing is the other one. It's really, really hard to find good people to work with and who get you and you could say blue and they kind of know exactly the type of shade of blue that fits that project. And so that, that I, that's a work in progress. How I like staff up and start to bring on employees.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Have you made any hires yet or.

[Caroline Burke]

Are you still working mostly with contractors?

[Luis Fernandez]

Mostly with contractors, yeah. Mostly with freelancers right now. I would love to find that perfect right person, but that's taking a little more time than I thought.

[Caitlin Peterson]

How many projects are you typically working.

[Caroline Burke]

On at one time?

[Luis Fernandez]

Right now I have five projects and actually five of them are brand new. So it's going to be an interesting thing that all of them are at the same stage at the same time. I'm sort of hoping that there's like an efficiency of means as a result mindset maybe. Yeah, exactly. Like you're going to the plumbing store at the same time for all five. You know what I mean? Like, so I'm hoping that that is a byproduct of that. And then I have 1, 2, 3 projects that are done but you know, still need punch listings, still have some like some construction things going on. And then I'VE just photographed two projects, which, by the way, is also part of, like, the work flow. Right. The administration of the ones that are now finished and you have photography and are about to get published and. Or you're, you know, you're photographing and styling and. And that's. I kind of considered those projects as well.

[Caroline Burke]

I want to pause for a moment and just acknowledge that you are doing all of this at a very high level alone.

[Luis Fernandez]

Mostly. Yeah.

[Caroline Burke]

That's pretty miraculous. Is hiring top of mind for you, or is it something you've been pushing off?

[Luis Fernandez]

Yeah, I've been pushing it off. Finally decided that. I think I. Yeah, it's something I need to do, and I think it's kind of finding that one right person.

[Caroline Burke]

But growth to you does not mean, like, running a team of 40.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Or does it?

[Luis Fernandez]

Yeah, that. That seems comp. Like that. It goes back to that question and that mindset of liability. What is the cost of that liability when you have a team of 40 and they can make mistakes just like you do? But now you're, you know, times 40, and then. And then the whole management process of that, your. Your job becomes completely different. And I think I still sort of enjoy the design process. I still enjoy all of that. So until I kind of get bored of it, then I kind of like the setup that I have right now. I could see a team of 10. The other. I mean, the other thing, too, is I'm able to offer a much more concierge experience to my clients when it's not a team of 40. I'm mindful of that, that that's what the clients are getting, and that's sometimes why they're coming to me. I think some clients come to you, and they've been to other firms, and they realize that they're not dealing with the principal, they're dealing with an intern or whoever it is. And it's a very different experience.

[Caroline Burke]

Do you feel pressure to build a firm like the firms you see your peers building?

[Luis Fernandez]

A little bit. I hear the anecdotes and the stories, and it's like, wow, that sounds really painful. Like, there is no price for that pain. And I've used the word several times. I think it's all about a good balance. And obviously it takes longer to get there, which is probably like, the story of my life. Like, everything just takes longer. But then it's better where you've arrived somehow.

[Caroline Burke]

How do you think about your firm's evolution and your firm's future as you.

[Luis Fernandez]

Look ahead, obviously continue to do amazing projects. I'd love to start to do more of the projects where really you get to showcase the full ability of what you can do. And they're not governed by a million parameters, whether it's budget, size, clients, taste, etc. The other thing, and I've started this process somehow, but like I did the rug collaboration with Modern rugs la. So I'd love to see more of that designing and developing product. I know I'd love to the sort of conversations that are happening. I'd love to do a lighting collection next and I think wallpaper could be super fun. So I'd love to see more of that. And then like this idea of special projects which are not your traditional, whether it's a residence or a commercial space. But like I'm working on an installation during Art Basel in Miami. And so those I, I love, I think those really sharpen your, your skills in completely different ways and are fun even though they're super challenging for a lot of reasons. But and so if I can keep that mix going, I think I would be super happy.

[Caroline Burke]

What does success mean for you today?

[Luis Fernandez]

That's such a good question. And I think it goes back to that idea of what, what the ideal firm size looks like. Right? Like it's kind of, I mean it sounds so cheesy, but it's the what came to mind, like happy life, happy mind or the other way around, the happy mind, happy life. And I think it's that it's kind of the less worrying and the more you're able to create and build beautiful things. I think that success and obviously if you're getting compensated for it, it's kind of like even better. But I do tend to think, and you know, this has also been a fault in my career in the sense that I don't always think profit first and somehow it leads to something better and to profit eventually. But you just have to stick it out and it takes longer and I think for me that like it. All of that summarizes probably what that looks like.

[Caitlin Peterson]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings. Head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me at tradetale businessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you back here next week.