← Trade Tales
Trade Tales
How Studio DB took their firm out of its startup phase
00:55:16
Britt and Damian Zunino of Studio DB on how they communicate the value of a coordinated architecture and design process to clients, how a consultant helped sharpen the firm’s structure and systems, and the ways they’ve honed their ability to recognize when they’re ready to grow.
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- [00:03]
Britt Zanino
That became a theme as our company has evolved over 18 years. Recognizing when we need help, when we need to pivot, when we need to just be vulnerable, recognize where our weaknesses are and try to find solutions for them. That's an ever evolving thing for us.
- [00:20]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in Chief of business of home. Welcome to TradeTell. We're back for season seven of the show where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea, or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guests today are a husband and wife duo whose creative partnership was a perfect match, bringing expertise in architecture, architecture and design to create spaces where each discipline informs the other. But as the years went on, they realized they couldn't do it alone and it would take a carefully curated team to produce the kind of results they had always dreamed of. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is brought to you by Dallas Market center, the largest and most active open daily design marketplace in North America. Designers can source from thousands of top brands across home decor, furniture, lighting and more any day of the week, and friendly showroom staff help elevate your design business in a marketplace that's ready when you are design professionals. Discover what's new, what's next, and what works in Dallas. Visit DallasMarketCenter.com to learn more about home and design resources as well as upcoming design events and markets. This podcast is also sponsored by the Crate and Barrel trade program Designers. If you haven't joined yet, it's time to check it out. You'll get access to beautiful, high quality furniture and decor from three design driven brands, Crate and Barrel, CB2 and Crate and Kids right at your fingertips. Plus, there's a dedicated concierge team to support your projects. From concept to flawless installation, members get an exclusive 20% discount with no minimum purchase. Join today@ CrateAndBarrel.com trade to start enjoying all the perks this program has to offer.
- [02:41]
Damian Zanino
I grew up in a creative family. My father is an architect and my mother was a fashion designer. So I was always surrounded by creative individuals. But when I was in college it was very important for me to sort of like carve my own path very quickly. Started as a math major. That didn't last long but then found a love for art history, and then really found that that love was more for architectural.
- [03:01]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Damian Zanino. He eventually pivoted to architecture school and soon took on an exciting new job at a firm in New York.
- [03:10]
Damian Zanino
So after school, worked for Cook Fox Architects, converting a lot of the old fish market buildings down in the Sussex Seaport to residential. And I was on site there and loved kind of the hands on aspect of that. And so just sort of like going back to the office, sketching something and then having it be built in the next, you know, week was really gratifying. And I was on that project for about two years. And when that wrapped up, one of the retail tenants there asked if I would design a store for them. And I had zero retail design background.
- [03:36]
Caitlin Peterson
The project was for a pet store called the Salty Paw, and Damian was eager to take it on, but he also knew that he needed some retail design experience to really pull it off. Luckily, someone he met around the neighborhood happened to fit the bill.
- [03:51]
Britt Zanino
I'm not sure I had a plan, to be totally honest. I was like, absolutely sure. Let's do it. Let's try it.
- [03:56]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Britzzagnino. She had the design skills that Damian was looking for, but her own early career had a few more twists and turns.
- [04:05]
Britt Zanino
I grew up in northern Michigan. As a child, I was always interested in design. I have this incredibly fashionable aunt that I grew up with who worked in fashion and always had these incredible interiors wherever she lived. And they were just so magical and so whimsical, and it was so inspiring as a kid. But I didn't necessarily think, oh, like, I'm going to be a designer. After graduating from high school, I actually used to be competitive snowboarder. So I moved to Colorado and had a different path other than always redecorating the house that I lived with, you know, like, eight other, like, snowboarder boys and trying to make the best of our crazy living situations.
- [04:48]
Caitlin Peterson
Before long, Britt was ready for a change. She left Colorado behind and set off for New York to begin a career in fashion.
- [04:57]
Britt Zanino
I did that for a few years in New York and loved the experience. But then ultimately I began helping out with store remodels and restorations for the brand I worked for. It became evident that that was the direction that I really wanted to go in, that the store design was really fun for me. And so I went back to school to study interior design at fit, which was a great experience. I was still working, and I took classes at night, and I Just made it all work. And then I freelanced at Martha Stewart also in a really incredible learning experience for me. I worked as a freelance stylist, and I really learned a lot about business and expectations and working very hard, and it was great. It was really wonderful. I was interested in retail design, and I think Damian approached me knowing that I had that background. And so it was an opportunity when the Salty Paw was looking for help and he needed help. So, you know, I think it was just saying yes. I think a lot of how our company has evolved, it's been just being open to saying yes.
- [05:51]
Caitlin Peterson
By the end of the project, their impromptu partnership had turned into a budding business. In 2007, they officially launched the architecture and interior design firm Studio db, and they would go on to get married two years later. I wanted to talk to them about how they communicate the value of a coordinated architecture and design process to clients, how a consultant helps sharpen the firm's structure and systems, and the way they've honed their ability to recognize when they're ready to grow.
- [06:23]
Unknown
When did you start to look at a body of work and say, all right, this is who we are. This is what our business is. This is the direction we want to start to move in, really, intentionally.
- [06:32]
Damian Zanino
We've been really fortunate to get most of our projects word of mouth. It's been nice that things have sort of grown organically and that most of our clients have seen our work and then wanted to work with us. So we've been very fortunate, I think, to be able to kind of be true to ourselves and do work that we were excited about. I don't know, though. I think we always. We're still sort of always looking for something new and different. I think, probably like, to our own detriment, like, as soon as we've done something, like we don't really, you know, or as soon as we, like, use the material or we've done it, we won't do it again. Like, it would be so much easier to sort of say, like, this is our thing, and we'll, you know, this is our formula. You know, we've refined our business to be much more standardized. But I think in terms of our approach to design and projects and types of projects, I think it's still always evolving. We're always sort of looking for something that's new and that we'll learn from and that we go in with a fresh set of eyes.
- [07:21]
Britt Zanino
But I do think after a few years of just the two of us working together, we made the decision we had a few freelancers who had come in and to help with some drafting and intern and whatnot. And we were working out of our loft downtown. And then there I was, pregnant with our daughter, our oldest daughter, and I had the flu. And everyone was in our loft and they were working. And I was just like, oh my God, like, we need an office. That was like, the first step is like, we have to this. We need to grow up and we need to move out of the house and we need a real office and we need real help. And so I think when we hired Kate and Sunny, who were first two employees, I think that was a big step for us. There was a lot going on. So we had to recognize when we needed help. And I think that became a theme and I think something that, as our company has evolved over 18 years, recognizing when we need help, when we need to pivot, when we need to just be vulnerable, recognize where our weaknesses are and try to find solutions for them. That's an ever evolving thing for us.
- [08:28]
Damian Zanino
But because we always like to sort of try be in a different market or a different type of project, I think we very much know what our limitations are. And I think about finding people with strengths in that and collaborating or just picking their brain and learning from them. And I think there's so many talented people and experienced people, and it's always been important to us to kind of be very aware of our limitations and find the right people to seek out for information or support.
- [08:57]
Unknown
Like, from the beginning or since you founded the business, have you basically only worked in tandem together, or do you also take architecture only or design only jobs separately? How intertwined are the two of you in the actual work?
- [09:14]
Britt Zanino
Occasionally we'll work with an outside firm if they're sort of like the architect of record or it's a collaboration where. But we would still be both involved. So I think, like, sometimes we'll do just a furniture package maybe where it's like less of a heavy lift on the architecture side. But yeah, it basically doesn't happen otherwise, which is good. I think we, you know, we have a good system in place. And I think when we founded our company, it was really all about the idea that those two disciplines were working together. So it doesn't really fit our model to do something else.
- [09:50]
Unknown
How do you work together? Or what does that look like? Where does one person's role begin and the other's end? Or, you know, like, what is that flow of ideas back and forth throughout the life cycle of a project?
- [10:01]
Britt Zanino
I mean, we're working from the very beginning through move in together. So there's certainly Damian or the senior architect on the project would be working on things like filing packages and things that are sort of specifically related to architecture. And I would be doing, you know, maybe certain furniture details or whatnot. But we're really, like, from the creative, like starting, like, mood boards and thinking initial floor plans and everything. We're doing it all together.
- [10:30]
Damian Zanino
It's always one package. It's not really that there's. We don't really view interior design and architecture as different design disciplines. I mean, obviously they're functional parts of it, and I could not put together a very good upholstery package for sure. So it's good. I think there are those parts that our team specialize in, but I think that when it comes to the creative part of design, it really is one team and one process. I think the challenge of bringing those different viewpoints together, those different scales or those different ideas, or, you know, like, challenging each other and learning from each other is really like, what's such an important part of how we design, you know, bringing our different ideas together and figuring out how they. How they merge. And I think we also like kind of the tension in our work sometimes. So it doesn't have to be a single, you know, single idea. It's really about. It's about the dialogue and kind of seeing where. Where it leads.
- [11:25]
Unknown
So that tension was sort of more the driver at the beginning than like, some sort of, like, aesthetic mind meld or something like that.
- [11:32]
Britt Zanino
Yeah, I think we. We approach things very differently, I think, often, and there's a healthy debate throughout the design process. But I think we have enough confidence in our relationship and our. And each other that we are. We're happy to have that debate. And that goes for our team as well. I think we have a lot of really amazing designers that work in our office, and everybody has a different point of view. And it's really great to hear other people's point of view. So. And we're comfortable doing that. It's not, you know, I don't think anyone gets offended. I think it's really a great exchange of ideas. And so, yeah, I think it makes for a stronger project, and I think that goes for clients, too. We work with a lot of creatives.
- [12:13]
Unknown
That's interesting because they have opinions, too.
- [12:15]
Britt Zanino
They have a lot of opinions. They have a lot of opinions, but it makes the project better. Often, you know, creatives are. They're used to working in a team. They're used to this flow of ideas. So it's iterative, they understand the process. So I think it's really quite fun. It can be challenging, but it actually makes, it makes the project feel. Our goal is always to create more of a feeling and set a tone and a mood and make it very personal for our clients. And so having them involved really makes our designs much more meaningful.
- [12:52]
Unknown
I want to talk about your team for a moment. I know you have, I think, nearly 20 today on the team. How did that grow over time?
- [12:59]
Britt Zanino
Really? When we reached like the time the major change of staffing for us was during the pandemic. And that was really the biggest shift for our business Even before the true, like, lockdown started. I think just because I'm sort of maybe a nervous Nelly about certain things, I was like, we have to figure out how to work remotely. And we put all these systems in place in the weeks leading up to when everything shut down. And that set us up for success. So when everyone actually was sent home, we, we had, you know, everyone had their packages of samples and we had remote desktops working and, you know, we were really set up to go, which was really helpful. And then I think, you know, in the immediate, like, right when everything happened, you know, there was no, really, there was no work. There was, everything was like shut down. You know, all of our job sites were shut down. Every, you know, projects that were about to start, Obviously everyone's pausing, but we, it gave us opportunity to navigate like the next steps, to sort of look at how our business was operating, how could we be more efficient, training, all of that sort of thing. We scaled back to a four day work week so we didn't have to lay off our team. And then figuring out how to navigate, like working on projects outside the city, a lot of learning happening. And then, you know, as we became even bigger, onboarding new team members, that was challenging as well.
- [14:31]
Damian Zanino
So one of the things I think we learned very quickly and we had to was before the pandemic, we'd always sort of done like one project outside of the city. And the rest of our work was essentially in New York City. And I think it made us realize and helped us. You know, we had to put in systems in place to be able to work remotely and to be able to do projects in different places that we didn't have such a regular presence. And one of the things about our business model is in the construction side, we're on site a lot, or we like to have a really strong relationship with the contractor. And we obviously during the pandemic could not be on site with that frequency. And so we really figured out, we put in systems and we learned how to kind of do a lot of that remotely. And it really opened up the ability to do projects in all over first the country and then be able to do a couple international projects as well. And so I think that was, you know, something we definitely learned through the pandemic.
- [15:23]
Unknown
What are some of the secrets to navigating that relationship like, or to managing a job site from your phone?
- [15:31]
Damian Zanino
I mean, I think this has always been something that's really important to us, but just having a really strong relationship with, with contractors and fabricators and receiving warehouses and movers and artisans and like, that's, that's always been really important to us. And I think everybody was learning to navigate, doing that over zoom or facetime or whatever. But I think just building those relationships in places with people we didn't, in markets that we didn't have connections was really critical in doing that.
- [16:01]
Britt Zanino
You have to have trusted partners because it's just not going to be successful. We have been really lucky. The projects that we've done internationally have had really wonderful contractors and team members on the ground. And so that's the only way that they can be successful because you have to have somebody who can be your, your eyes and ears and really open to being a team. But yeah, it's a little bit of a leap of faith to a certain extent.
- [16:29]
Damian Zanino
Yeah, I mean, I think we don't bring a lot of ego to it. I think we really enjoy collaborations. We, you know, enjoy the value of those relationships. But it's, you know, we try to just try to get to know people on a personal level and obviously on a very professional level. But just try to make sure that it feels like, you know, the values of our companies align and because I think, you know, something inevitably is going to go wrong somewhere along the way. And it's, you know, it's really important to have somebody that, you know, wants to work through it with you and not point fingers and they're not all perfect. And, you know, we've learned a lot along the way.
- [17:05]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [17:47]
Unknown
Going back to your team for a second, was there a big jump in the number of people you were managing or was that something that sort of grew slowly and incrementally?
- [17:55]
Damian Zanino
There are definitely some milestones along the way. I mean, we went from just the two of us to four with Kate and Sunny, and then we had like a couple of sort of freelance people. We got. Then we got a. We got our first development project, multifamily development project, where we did the interior architecture and design, which was one Van Dam down in soho. And there we did grow our team. I think we probably added maybe four people. We kind of doubled at that point and then we kind of stayed at that number for a while. We did some, you know, some good sized projects, but like, we were, we were really good at that size. And there's sort of these moments where like, well, I don't know that we never want to be more than eight or maybe 10, you know, and then we'd get another. We had another, another multifamily development project or sort of a large, you know, a large townhouse project. We'd add a person here or there. We, you know, somebody would recommend somebody that just felt like it could be really great asset to the team. And so it just kind of happened. And when the pandemic started, we were, I want to say we were 11 and we kind of went down to 10. And then, you know, then things got really busy. And one of the things as Bert was mentioning, we were kind of evaluating, you know, our systems. And we did start working with a consultant, a business consultant. One of the things we realized when we were all a small team and in person is that like we, we knew what our systems were and we just did them as a team. And when we were remote and we were growing and we were trying to onboard and hire and train people, we realized that we didn't have any documentation to like make that clear. And when we weren't able to like have all that facetime and you know, sort of teach and mentor ourselves, like, we realized how ill prepared we were for that. And so one of the things was working with a consultant was sort of just creating, documenting all of our systems, being really clear about what our goals were and what our, our structure was. And you know, I think that's, it's always still evolving, but I think that we really prioritized the clarity of what of our systems and what our goals were and our mission and our values.
- [19:53]
Britt Zanino
Right. And during. So during the pandemic, we essentially doubled our team again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was crazy and, you know, very difficult because you're doing it most. A lot of people were remotely working. As Damian mentioned, the onboarding was really challenging, and then we would have limited time once the office was back open. You know, we could only have a cert. We really had outgrown our space. And so half the team would be in and then half would be out and just getting people to know each other and work together on teams and, you know, had, like, the old crew and the new crew, and it was really. It was really challenging. I mean, everyone was great, but it was really a lot. And I think it was that point, too. We. We recognized that we needed a more robust, you know, human resources situation. You know, just couldn't be the two of us. And also recognizing that we really needed someone who would be, like, a director of operations and adding this, like, third person to help us with, you know, all of those duties, which. It just became very clear that we were ready for that. We really were past that point.
- [21:05]
Unknown
Really.
- [21:05]
Britt Zanino
We had. And it was. We needed help. So that was a really. That was a big step for Damien.
- [21:12]
Damian Zanino
It was a very big step. I did a huge chunk of the. You know, I did all the proposals. I did all the invoicing. I did all the. You know, we. I mean, the relationships in the business development side, we did collectively, but, like, sort of the back. Back office stuff was something I held very close, and I had a really hard time with the idea of letting other people in on that.
- [21:33]
Unknown
Was it about control? Was it about saying, you know, if I do this, I know it's right? Did you actually like it? Like, what was driving. Really wanting to keep that on your plate?
- [21:42]
Britt Zanino
All the above. Right.
- [21:46]
Damian Zanino
I liked knowing exactly where things stood. I mean, we were. We were small, and the dollar. You know, every dollar did matter, and, you know, it still does, but, like, it was just. We. I don't know. I think it was very much a control thing. I think. I. And I. I do, like. I don't know. I like that part of it. I don't mind. I like. I appreciate the business side of it, but I think it was. It was definitely a struggle for me to kind of. To let go of that or to. To bring somebody else into it. And, you know, it's still very collaborative, but it's really nice to not be the one responsible for it all, you know?
- [22:19]
Britt Zanino
I think we recognized also that we were missing out on opportunities because we were so backlogged, you know, in like putting other proposals. And also we have four kids and we had, you know, we just had a lot going on personally as well. And it just felt we, we had this. We doubled our team, we had all these amazing opportunities, but we were just dropping the ball and we really needed somebody who could focus on those things so that it was a good thing for us to. To do, but we had to be vulnerable and just admit that it was time and it was someone else could do it better.
- [22:51]
Unknown
Where do you go looking for that person? What is. What job have they had before or sort of what qualities felt most important for someone in that role?
- [23:00]
Damian Zanino
This is a very good setup because we found both of our business directors on Business of Home.
- [23:04]
Unknown
Oh, no way. That's great.
- [23:06]
Britt Zanino
Yeah.
- [23:08]
Damian Zanino
The first one was very much during the pandemic and she was fantastic. She had worked in a couple architecture firms, but also had experience. She had run the business side of a vineyard and had her own business before. So she kind of knew all aspects of, of that side of it. And it was really great to just have somebody who knows, knew so much more than we did. She ultimately moved upstate and wasn't able to be in the office as much. And so we, we started looking for a new person. The person we who is currently in that role had worked at Christie's and previously at Sotheby's and had worked in sort of in the design department, but also in the business side of it and just had an appreciation for design, but not in any way a. A background in design or architecture. And having somebody come in with sort of a fresh viewpoint was really helpful too.
- [23:56]
Britt Zanino
Yeah, and she's very forward thinking and I think was really interested in sort of the next steps of growing the business and next steps of like innovation on our end. And so that was really the next step, I think, for us, which is great.
- [24:11]
Unknown
Designers tell me sometimes that there are different phases of management sort of as your team grows. Can you tell me a little bit about how you felt in your roles, kind of at the helm of the firm when it was small, when it was sort of a little bigger, and maybe now when you have this larger team, does it ask something different of you, like emotionally or as a boss?
- [24:36]
Britt Zanino
I think so. I mean, I also think we were younger and we had a lot less experience. And so I think in the beginning, I'm not sure we were always the best managers. I think we were sort of learning as we were going as well, I think it was like maybe more friendly. And I think we encouraged everyone to have a different point of view, which I think we still do now. But I think people kind of did things their own way and we were okay with that when it was a smaller office. And then we realized as we grew, like there had to be so many more levels of consistency and we had to just have like baseline, like standards in a way that maybe it can be like a little loosey, little bit loosey goosey maybe when you're a smaller office.
- [25:21]
Damian Zanino
I would say for the first 10 years, we basically, it felt like a startup. Like we were always just reacting. We were going from, I mean we were, we were always growing and doing really great things. But just from a management standpoint it was very reactive. It was putting out fires or just going sort of from one issue to the next and never kind of focusing on the systems. And I think, you know, when we paused a little bit and ironed that out and put it in like real clarity of our expectations in place, I felt like finally and had the right, right team and the right people help us. It just feels very different, I think the way we, I don't know, I mean, there's still always, there's, you know, always things from a day to day standpoint. But it's really fun to be able to look, be much more forward thinking about, you know, our approach to projects and building our business and you know, what, what our real goals are.
- [26:10]
Unknown
You mentioned at one point that, you know, you said, oh, we'll never get bigger than eight people or whatever it is. Do you put that limit on your ambitions for the business or the size of the business?
- [26:21]
Damian Zanino
Now when we hired a director of operations, a business, you know, director of business, that, that allowed us, I think, to grow to, you know, to 12 people and ultimately to 20 people and then having support for that person as well. I think that because we love the design part of it and we really enjoy the client relationships, we found that when we were. If we had too many projects going on, we felt detached from or just not as connected to each project as we wanted to be. And I think that that's where we sort of realized that, you know, this feels like a good size and a good number of people and a great, you know, great team. But I think, I don't think that we would want to grow bigger than where we are now. I think that we just. Part of the, our love of it is the connections with our clients and the connections to the projects and being able to actually design and, you know, collaborate with our team. And I think it. It feels like we're. We're not giving. We're not able to give. Give that project. Yeah, exactly. If we're. If we're any bigger, you know, and I think, like, there have been moments where we just sort of had a few too many projects and like, we weren't. It just didn't feel like we were as connected as we wanted to be. I like where we are now.
- [27:43]
Unknown
What roles have you really carved out for yourselves? What are you most protective of, maybe within the business? And then what were you more comfortable handing off to someone on your team?
- [27:55]
Damian Zanino
We have a team of five architecture people. One of the things we also did was sort of create a team. So you have a senior and intermediator, senior and two intermediate and junior people within sort of architecture and interior design side. But I think we have people that are architects but study interior design or vice versa. And I think that was important. So everybody. It was helpful when people came into the company kind of understanding both sides of it. But. But we have architecture teams, we have interior design teams, and they collaborate on pretty much all of our projects. And then we have a support. We have a business director, we have an office manager, our operations coordinator. And then one of the newer things in the last sort of three to five year, three years, let's say, was we hired a procurement person, procurement coordinator. And up until that point, sort of everybody, each team did that for their own projects. And we do a lot of procurement on both the architecture and interior design side. So we'll by a lot of plumbing and tile and appliances and all the hardware, and then obviously all of the FF and E. And so everybody, every team used to do that kind of for their own projects. And I think it's been really helpful. It's still a very collaborative relationship with the procurement coordinator. But I think that was also a big shift that it freed up the teams to focus on design more. In terms of personally, what. Well, I still have some involvement in, like, preparing proposals for clients. Like, I really. That was probably the biggest struggle. And as Britt mentioned, like, sometimes my holdups of doing that would cost us jobs. Like, you know, I just couldn't. It wasn't something I would prioritize because I dreaded doing it. And so there'd be some times where, you know, a week and a half would go by and, you know, hadn't put a proposal together and, you know, client would move in a different direction and that was pretty painful. So it's really great having somebody else to handle that. And then, yeah, I think that just being able to have more face time and just more project meetings. We're always in every client meeting, but having more just individual team meetings and project meetings and I think just having a little bit more time to do that has been great. Yeah.
- [30:09]
Britt Zanino
And I think I wouldn't want to do this if I wasn't involved in like, the details and like, looking at all the fabrics and looking, you know, like that. That's the part that I love and like the meeting new, you know, new furniture designers and new, you know, artisans that we're going to be work with, like developing those relationships is really, really important to me. So that's something that I don't think there's any point in doing it if we're not involved in, you know, in that process still. I think we've really talented people that work with us on the team and they bring so many wonderful ideas. And so sometimes it's just a matter of editing and. But working with them. But it's all still very hands on, which is really important to us.
- [30:52]
Unknown
You've had, you know, some of these team members for a very long time. How are you thinking about their growth and development as the firm grows and develops?
- [31:01]
Damian Zanino
At this point, the person that's been with us the shortest amount of time has been with us for three years. And you know, Sunny's been with us for 15 years and there's a couple team members that have been with us for sort of seven to nine years. But I think it's always about, you know, giving them more opportunity and more opportunities for growth and. And you know, Sunny started out as a draftsperson and is currently the director of architecture. So like, there's been, you know, there's lots of, lots of growth opportunities along the way. I think it's sort of figuring out what people's interests are, what, what their strengths are and then providing, you know, sort of tailoring roles to fit those and how they can best, you know, obviously benefit the firm. So, you know, we've probably to our detriment, but our org chart is sort of always shifting or our roles are always kind of evolving because, you know, we recognize, you know, more and more what people's interests and strengths are and kind of how they can best fill a role. And while we have sort of clear job descriptions, they, they do kind of evolve based on the individual.
- [32:03]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [32:45]
Unknown
How many projects is sort of a comfortable volume at a given time for the business today?
- [32:52]
Damian Zanino
I mean, I think it's fun to have like one large development project or hospitality project and then, you know, I think depending on sort of the scale and scope, you know, maybe sort of like six to eight projects in design and then the rest kind of, you know, I guess probably we sort of have somewhere between 15 and 20 projects going at a time. Probably at the peak it was sort of 25, 27 and that was probably 30, almost hit 30.
- [33:18]
Unknown
And that was the. That was when it felt less good.
- [33:22]
Damian Zanino
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So I think it's sort of, you know, if there's projects in construct, in under construction and projects in procurement and install phases, I think that that's kind of a good balance of, you know, around 20 projects.
- [33:33]
Unknown
What are you looking for in clients and projects today? You know, as you really assess where you want to devote that time and energy, what makes you say yes to a job now?
- [33:43]
Britt Zanino
I think, you know, something different is always like really exciting to us. Like if it's a different location, if it's a different type of architecture, if it's more of a renovation or a ground up opportunity is always so exciting. But I think most importantly, it's really fun to have clients who are engaged in the process. And I think, you know, we work with a lot of different types of people and some people are very involved and some people are not. And we can do it all and it's all fine. But I think it's really fun when the client shares the same amount of enthusiasm for the project as you do. Because I think it's just, you know, you're working on it for sometimes years together. And so you want to make sure that you, you know, you have the same set of values, that you're both excited about the project, I think open to ideas, that makes it the most fun, I think. And I think, you know, as Damian mentioned, something always goes wrong. There's always something that happens, you know, like, and there's a lot of money involved. And so you really want to make sure that you're working with somebody who, you know, is in it for the long haul, and they. You have a really open dialogue with one another. I think that that's really helpful.
- [34:56]
Damian Zanino
I mean, I think we view, you know, when they're interviewing us, we're very much trying to get a feel for them and trying to understand, you know, the, you know, a lot of. Also what we do is sort of is. Is marriage counseling and family, you know, or just therapy and, you know, just understanding dynamics, understanding decision making processes. We, we ask a lot of questions and we really want, you know, there's a real range to our work because we want every project to feel like that that person or that family's home. And so it's, you know, it's. It's very much about us sort of telling their story through design and have it feel very personal. And, you know, when they walk in for the first time, that it's like, it feels just comfortable and it feels like theirs. And so it's really important that they're, you know, that we feel like they're open to that process and that they're, you know, and they're also trusting of us and what we do, but that they're willing to share and be open and be excited about the process and as Brett mentioned, bring that same enthusiasm.
- [35:55]
Caitlin Peterson
Is there a certain aesthetic through line.
- [35:58]
Unknown
In the work that you can identify, even kind of within that sort of like push pull of flexing to each client's needs?
- [36:04]
Britt Zanino
I think we're always looking to do something that's maybe a little bit unexpected, whether that's in the detailing. I mean, it's. Our work is very detail driven, so it's just like little nods. Maybe they're subtle, maybe they're not. But the details, I think, are incredibly important to us. And then I think that this level of personalization, you know, we know we love color, but I think that we can also do a room that's relatively neutral and still make it feel very cozy. And it's more about the texture, but I think it's just. It's very much about the details. Like during the pandemic, it was really interesting because we had a lot of clients who have reached out to us, and some had not really spent very much time in their homes, truthfully, because they worked a lot or they maybe their projects were relatively new and they would reach out and say, oh, you know, I didn't even realize that I had this, I don't know, little knob or a little, you know, secret thing that you made Me and, like, this is so special and, oh, so thoughtful. And that. That's, like, the greatest compliment to us, that when people discover things down the road and there's just a thoughtfulness to it, and hopefully it feels fresh but also feels timeless at the same time. So that's the goal.
- [37:18]
Damian Zanino
Yeah. I mean, I think we, like sort of unexpected juxtapositions and mentioned sort of tension between, you know, materials. But I think we want things to feel very, very comfortable and warm and inviting. And, you know, that can mean different things to. To different people. But. But I think it's. Yeah, I think all of our projects, we just want to feel very, I think, both. Both timeless but fresh and, I don't know, just very, very inviting coming into.
- [37:48]
Unknown
A project, you know, with the idea that your firm will be doing both the architecture and the design, no matter what the scope of the job is, how did that shape the way you talk about money with your clients or the way that you charge for the.
- [38:01]
Caitlin Peterson
Work that you're doing?
- [38:02]
Damian Zanino
So from the beginning, we've always worked on a flat fee for pretty much everything. We now do, like, construction administration hourly, and sometimes we'll do bidding and FF&E install hourly, just depending on, like, how clear the scope of work is. Sometimes if people, you know, are either going to be living there and they want pieces to kind of show up as they're ready, then, like, we'll do, like, install hourly because it may mean, you know, a lot of trips to the. To. To the apartment to kind of help install things and set things up. I think one of the reasons we did a flat fee from the beginning was that it was good to sort of settle the financial part of it up front. I think we were always concerned with hourly that, like, you know, design is iterative. We, you know, we may spend way too long on something and, you know, the client wouldn't see the value of that something. Maybe, you know, we may come to the idea, you know, the first, you know, our gut instinct about something turned out to be like, the best idea. But also, I think there's also a model, like percentage of construction or like a high markup. And I think we felt like that was sort of a. Sometimes I think a lot of our clients felt like the incentives there were maybe misaligned. And so we felt like doing a flat fee that kind of covered a fixed scope of work, you know, protected us, but also felt very fair to the clients. And so we've always worked that way. And, you know, it used to sort of just be like three phases. There would be schematic design, design development, and sort of a construction document phase. I guess there was always CA too. You know, now we sort of, we do separate out interior design architecture partly because of charging sales tax and things like that on interior design services. But we still make it very clear that, like, we'll only do schematic design for, you know, architecture and interior design as one, one design process and same with design development. But we do, we do assign a fixed fee for each of those phases of the job.
- [39:59]
Unknown
Is that comfortable for the client? Do they understand sort of how you're assigning value to the work?
- [40:05]
Damian Zanino
I think they appreciate the flat fee knowing up front, like, what it's going to cost. 1. Sometimes we run into a struggle when we, because now we do separate architecture, interior design is separate phases is that people will compare our proposals to an architecture firm only or an interior design firm only, and they're like, well, your lump sum for this is X and theirs is only, you know, it's, you know, half of X and, or, you know, or two thirds of X. And like, you know, why are you so much more expensive? And I think rarely is it apples to apples. And so I think sometimes we, we run into that struggle. And usually we can talk about it and explain our services and our process, but, you know, we are very full service and we really put such a focus on design, so there's a lot of time associated with that. So I think it's just being really clear about our process and about all the deliverables.
- [40:59]
Britt Zanino
Also, it's really important to us to be able to explain the value that we're bringing to the project as well, because I think if you have both interiors and architecture coordinated, there's, there is a savings in terms of, like, our fees are going to be higher. I mean, we're just certainly not the least expensive firm, but we provide a lot of value. We're going to be very coordinated. There's, you know, hopefully the construction goes much smoother. You're. You have less overhead and carrying costs, especially in New York. It's very expensive if you're living in a rental or even temporary space. So I mean, we try to explain all of that and the efficiencies that go along with that. So ultimately there's a, hopefully a time and cost savings to having everything under one umbrella. And I think a lot of clients do appreciate that. And I think also just the time savings and just the energy savings of not hiring two separate firms is really appealing to people because I Just think there's a. Just an emotional, like, the idea of, like, if you, you coordinating between two firms that don't necessarily always agree, and it's just that can be really challenging for clients who've done it in the past and have had that experience, and they, they don't want to do that again.
- [42:10]
Unknown
So there's like this exhale of like, oh, at least that's like, not a conflict I have to manage.
- [42:15]
Damian Zanino
And I think our role in ca, too, in the construction administration is very much meant to make sure that, like, we keep, you know, if something comes up on site, and it always does, it's like that we can address it quickly. So we're really doing our best to keep jobs on schedule and on budget and sort of minimize, you know, change orders or delays or, you know, coming up with quick solutions to things. So we enjoy that part, but it's also very much a benefit to our clients. And also I think, you know, we have a lot of experience with that at this point. And so it's, it's helpful for our clients. You know, they, some of them like to come to meetings because it's, it's fun, but like, they're not responsible for, like, managing the contractor, you know, and.
- [42:55]
Unknown
Are you always managing the contractor?
- [42:57]
Damian Zanino
There are a couple instances where the client and the contractor had sort of a relationship in advance of us being involved. But for the most part, we work with this sort of similar group of contractors on most of our projects, and we're always open to new people. So, yeah, I mean, I think clients might come to job sites and we'll certainly let them know. There are always sort of these key moments of like, when the framing is laid out and making sure that the rooms all feel right, or if something comes up, we very much bring them into conversation. But I think it's, it's. They generally appreciate that they can rely on our experience and our relationship with the contractors to, to manage the process. For the most part, we really are. We generally are managing that and we, and we like doing it. And we look at that very much as a collaboration with, with a contractor. Like, I know sometimes there's this very adversarial relationship between architects and contractors, and we've always sort of appreciated their knowledge and their experience. And it's a good relationship, an important relationship.
- [43:58]
Unknown
I want to talk a little bit about what happens when the project is done and press, as the firm grows, as you're getting published, as you're getting awards in the industry. How does that start to change the Opportunities that come your way.
- [44:13]
Britt Zanino
Well, it's interesting, over the past few years, we, I guess it was three years ago, we decided that was actually another big step for us or a milestone for us is we decided to hire a PR firm. So we hired Dada Goldberg, which we have been working with, and we love working with them. And they. And I think part of that was just recognizing that we had relationships with editors, we had relationships with people in the industry, and they knew our work. But the reality was that we were just. Just working so much that we really didn't have time to respond, really to requests. We really didn't have time to put together any sort of packages to send to press. Like, it just. We just didn't have time to really. We had these beautiful projects that were sitting there the same way. Our proposals were right, and we couldn't really get them out there. So we decided to take that step of hiring a PR firm, which has been really wonderful for us and a great experience. We also joined the Expert, which is the online portal for online design, which has been really wonderful and meeting people from all over the world, actually. So that's been another way to get our names out there and to meet new people.
- [45:34]
Unknown
Do you feel the difference when you do that kind of stuff? Does it change the type of inquiries that are coming in for full service design?
- [45:42]
Britt Zanino
I think it does. I think that we still have a very strong network of word of mouth, you know, and referrals, which is really meaningful. And a lot of our work has come that way. And we have so many repeat clients, you know, at any given time. We're always doing a project for a past client. There's always something going on in the office, at least a couple. I think that it's, though, given us this opportunity to work with people who really connect with us stylistically. So it's not just, you know, their friend gave us a really wonderful review, but, like, we really aesthetically align. And so I think it's opened us up to working on projects that maybe are a little bit crazier or, like, more creative or just because they maybe saw something on Instagram or saw something in press. So that's been. That's been fun.
- [46:34]
Unknown
Is that that kind of cadence of getting work published still sort of an important driver for you as you look ahead?
- [46:41]
Britt Zanino
It is, but I think that we went through a period where we were shooting everything and, you know, felt the need to shoot every single project and try to get it out there. And I think it's incredibly expensive endeavor, you know, I think a lot of magazines don't have the budgets that they used to in order to really produce shoots on their own. So I think the onus is very much on a lot of designers to produce the work and hire the photographer and the stylist and all of that. And it's incredibly expensive. And so I think we have shifted our focus to, you know, really shooting projects that I think are. Are spend investing in those certain projects, but certainly not all of them.
- [47:26]
Unknown
Well, you just published a beautiful book.
- [47:29]
Britt Zanino
Thank you.
- [47:30]
Unknown
I would imagine that phase of shooting everything was actually very helpful for the book, or maybe motivated by the book in part.
- [47:36]
Britt Zanino
Yeah, it was pretty great.
- [47:38]
Unknown
Which came first? Were you shooting everything and then it became a book, or was it that you wanted to do a book, therefore you shot everything?
- [47:45]
Britt Zanino
So half of the book was already photographed with Matthew Williams, who we've worked with for a long time. And then when we did get the book deal with Rizzoli, we knew that we had a certain amount of projects they wanted to include that were. A lot of them were under construction. And then we had a few projects that were past projects that we wanted to go back and reshoot that really were meaningful projects for us and just sort of the journey of our firm. And so it was important for us to capture them again. They had already been photographed, but we went back and reshot them so that they. The photography was consistent and, you know, it felt fresh and new.
- [48:27]
Unknown
How do you approach photography kind of strategically to make that investment make sense, to know that you'll sort of have the body of work that you need to kind of deploy it effectively?
- [48:38]
Britt Zanino
I think having experience. My experience working at Martha, just even as a freelance stylist, does inform the process. I think just like being. Having the experience of working on set. I think, though, I. I think early on, we didn't hire stylists.
- [48:58]
Unknown
I was gonna ask, are you styling your own projects or.
- [49:00]
Britt Zanino
No, No. I mean, occasionally. I don't know, but not really. I think that we recognize. No, I mean, I think I. I think it's another thing that it's like, no, that I. I want to really work with the best. I think that that's like a through line also. I think we just have. As we've matured, as our company has evolved, I think we want to do the best possible work that we can do, and we want to partner with the best possible people. So it's recognizing when we're not bringing the best to the table, then we really need to be partnering with someone who is. And I think that there are certain projects that I definitely did some styling, whether, you know, it was a. For budgetary reasons or whatever. But I think now our commitment is just working with the best photographers, the best stylist, and. And doing it right. And I love it. I love. I love the photo shoot piece of it. Like, I love. That's my. That's one of my most favorite things. That's probably the thing that I'm not totally willing to give up. But when we bring in an amazing photographer and you bring. Bring in an incredible stylist, they're going to see it differently. And that's actually kind of the magic, right? That's the magic. And I think sometimes you can just get in your. You just get in your zone that you. You. You've seen it this way a certain way for years, and then they come and they turn it kind of upside down, and it looks amazing and different. And that's the fun part, I think.
- [50:31]
Unknown
So how does it feel to have the book out in the world?
- [50:34]
Britt Zanino
It was kind of scary, but now. Now it's. Now it's great. I don't know. Day. What do you think?
- [50:39]
Damian Zanino
I don't know. It's really exciting. It's great to be able to share it with friends and family and clients and just have people be a little more aware of our work, be able to. I don't know. It's just. It's been fun. It is. It's still scary. I don't know. It just. You know, all of our work is out there on our website and, you know, on Instagram and things like that. But it's. I don't know, it feels. You're really putting yourself out there. And. I don't know. I guess also because there's a whole. There's all the text and there's a story, and, like, it is just very. It's. Our work is very personal, but our narrative is very personal, too. And so I think you feel very exposed sometimes. I think it. For me, it's sort of. I did this imposter syndrome. Like, it just seems crazy that we have a book with Rizzoli of our work. I know we've been doing it for 18 years and we have all these projects, but it just still feels surreal.
- [51:27]
Unknown
When you look ahead. How do you think about what comes next? What does leveling up mean to each of you? And how do you define success?
- [51:37]
Britt Zanino
I will say that it's really funny. We have this habit.
- [51:41]
Damian Zanino
So I was gonna tell the story. Go ahead.
- [51:43]
Britt Zanino
Oh, you Were gonna tell the same story. Well, because we. We have a relatively hectic life, like with the kids and with work and with everything else. And we reached this point, we're like, okay, we really need to slow down and like, let's go away, just the two of us. This does not happen very often, but whenever it does, we get to spend like a weekend away or something like that together. And we start the weekend with like, how can we, you know, make our lives easier? How can we slow down and whatever and. And then by the end, by like Sunday, we're like, we're starting two more companies. We're gonna do this, we're gonna do that, and we can' ourselves to think about, like, doing more.
- [52:28]
Unknown
Are you really going to start two more companies?
- [52:30]
Britt Zanino
I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Not in like a big company, but like maybe a division.
- [52:36]
Damian Zanino
No, I think doing more. More collaborations. More. More. You know, I think we do more furniture. You know, I don't know if it's a furniture line, you know, hardware. I think there's just all these things that are exciting and inspiring for us and that we. Well, we've been talking about these things for a long time. We actually now are getting to, like, really do them. And I think it's it that feels very rewarding in terms of growth or next steps. I mean, I think we. There's types of projects we really want to do. I think we really want to do more hospitality.
- [53:05]
Britt Zanino
We did. We did a retail store in Texas recently for Lila Rose, which was so much fun. So it makes me want to do more like commercial or like retail or, you know, where you get to tell a brand story, which I think is really fun. So when we first started our company, I think like, our work was 50% residential, 50% commercial. You know, we did some, like, bakeries in the pet store and some restaurants and Italian grocery and all these little things. And. And then during the recession, that stopped because no one was really opening a business. So then we just focused primarily on residential and that became our thing. But I think branching out to other. Other things like that it would be. I mean, I. That the project in Texas was so much fun. I mean, mostly because of, I think Leela and her team, and they were so great. But I'd love to do more of that.
- [53:59]
Unknown
What does success mean to each of you personally? What makes you feel successful?
- [54:04]
Damian Zanino
I think it's just feeling both challenged and fulfilled with the quality of the work. Just doing things that we're proud of. I mean, I think that that's such important. Having clients that are happy, having a team that feels fulfilled. Yeah, feels fulfilled. And yeah, I think it's very much about those qualities.
- [54:27]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying Trade Tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own.
- [54:48]
Unknown
To share, I'd love to hear from.
- [54:49]
Caitlin Peterson
You and you can email me@tradetalesusinessofhome.com Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlin Peterson, and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson.
- [55:06]
Unknown
Thanks.
- [55:06]
Caitlin Peterson
Thanks again for listening and I'll see you back here next week.