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Trade Tales
Jenna Chused on embracing risk in order to grow
00:49:46
Jenna Chused on honing her marketing efforts to achieve better exposure, how she overcame a fear of delegation in order to grow, and the real costs of project photography in order to get published today.
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- [00:03]
Jenna Chuse
You have to grow and hire people and get bigger spaces and do all these things to take on larger projects and to like, keep going in the direction you want to go in. That's risk. And I just have to get used to taking risk.
- [00:19]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season seven of the show where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea, or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer who spent the first part of her career helping other entrepreneurs get their ideas off the ground before finally taking a chance on herself. Now that she's at the helm, she told me how she's learning to embrace risk and why she's never satisfied her quest to perfect her presentations for clients. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsor. This podcast is sponsored by Ethan Allen. Imagine you've just landed a major client and they want a big presentation in a very short amount of time. Ethan Allen Trade puts everything designers need right at their fingertips. With Ethan Allen's state of the art floor planner, designers can create realistic floor plans, 3D images and even 3D video previews. And Ethan Allen Concierge can pull together furniture options, accents, samples, and then when your client says yes, Ethan Allen handles the ordering and delivery for you as well. Apply for your own trade account today@ethanallen.com Trade this podcast is also sponsored by the Shade Store. The Shade Store offers designers everywhere a simplified resource for handcrafted custom window treatments with a team of dedicated design consultants available to guide you through the material and product selection process, a vast network of measure and install professionals to ensure the perfect fit, and more than 150 showrooms nationwide. The Shade Store offers the bespoke customization of a high end workroom backed by the support of a national organization. Let the Shade Store take care of window treatments for you. Sign up for a trade account today at theshadestore.com/trade. That's the shade store.com trade.
- [02:53]
Jenna Chuse
I went to University of Texas, majored in fashion design. I was always interested in interiors but they didn't have an interior program. So I ended up going to a magazine called Mirabella and then became a Stylist it was a tight team and I sort of felt like I found my calling. It was super creative and I shopped the market and I found the best clothes and we travel all over the world. It was amazing. Back then there was no Internet, so I think a fax came across the fax machine and it started to be whispered throughout the office and they were like, they've just closed the magazine. They've just closed the magazine.
- [03:28]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Jenna Chusett. After Mirabella folded, she continued to land high profile styling gigs. Then a new opportunity came knocking.
- [03:38]
Jenna Chuse
Someone that had worked with us at Mirabella named Amy Crane. She said, do you want to come do this with me? Wanted to create a home magazine that you can buy everything in the pages of the magazine. So it was her, her husband and I, and we went on to create and shoot and print and send off to everyone as a catalog this amazing, beautiful magalog called Rune. And that's where I learned about home. After that, that business was, you know, financially it was strained because we had to stock inventory of everything we were showing in this beautiful magazine. And I was really looking for my next thing. And so I went to one of the trade shows that we usually went to and I saw Christiane Lemieux. She had done a printed bedding line and I was like, wait a minute. That's exactly what was in my mind. So we started talking and I went and joined her. Over 13 years, we built Dwell Studio. It started off as a bedding brand and then we went into everything for home.
- [04:36]
Caitlin Peterson
As the brand grew, it gave Jenna more opportunities to explore interiors. When Dwell Studio was acquired by Wayfair in 2013, she decided it was time to bet on herself.
- [04:47]
Jenna Chuse
I'd always been sort of the number two. That had always been my experience working, you know, at these startups as the number two and making things happen. And then I was like, you know what? I'm going to start my own thing. I'm ready. I want it to be about me. I don't want to be the second line anymore. I want to be an interior designer. I had a lot of people recommend me after, after they knew Dwell closed. I had a lot of just people coming to me and just starting projects and one thing led to another and I actually was an interior designer.
- [05:17]
Caitlin Peterson
By 2015, Jenna had officially launched her firm, Chusit and Company. I wanted to talk to her about honing her marketing efforts to achieve better exposure, how she overcame a fear of delegation in order to grow, and what it really costs to photograph projects and get published today.
- [05:35]
Unknown
Did you kind of officially launch the business in 2013 or did you kind of ease your way into it? What is sort of that, like, official start date of, like, the launch for you?
- [05:45]
Jenna Chuse
I think I was easing myself into it. So I was doing consulting for like minded brands that knew me at Dwell, and so I'd come in and help them sort of like their back end and all that kind of stuff. So. And then I started to get one or two projects. So it wasn't until I stopped all the consulting agreements and went into doing interiors full time. And then I hired someone who used to work for me at Dwell and she became my assistant. And we were at my house and we had like three or four projects that were, like, pretty, you know, like meaty. You know, it's sort of like I just made it happen. I'm like, I'm going to be an interior designer. I remember my dad was like, well, you can't just go be an interior designer.
- [06:23]
Unknown
I'm like, watch me.
- [06:24]
Jenna Chuse
Actually, I think I'm going to do it. I'm. Watch me. And so I did it. And so I have to say, I'm sort of proud of myself because after, you know, I've been working since Whatever, 1994, and it's taken me until this age to sort of feel confident enough to start my own thing, and that was my path. You know, I always say, gosh, I wish I had gone into interiors so much earlier and blah, blah, blah.
- [06:49]
Unknown
Do you.
- [06:50]
Jenna Chuse
But that's. I do, I do. I'm like the kind of creative person who, like, loves math and loves organizing and, like, process. Yeah. So I think. I think this is, like, the perfect career because it's so much production and so much organization and so much. Like, I like that there are rules because you can learn this craft and get better at it and you get better with scale and you get better at layouts and you get better matching fabrics. And then it just works. And, you know, when it works with fashion, it's like if someone tells you that someone with an upside down hat on looks good and like, you know, thinks that looks good, then it looks good and you're sort of like, does that look good? But I feel like with interiors, you know, if something feels right, like, because you're in a room and it just feels good, it feels complete, it feels layered. It feels like the furniture's in the right place for conversation. It feels great when you walk through the room. And that's what I wanted to conquer. Like, I getting really good at that was my goal.
- [07:54]
Unknown
I like rules. I think that that structure is really helpful. Do you subscribe to the theory or that. To that idea that once you know all the rules, you can break them or what do the rules give you?
- [08:08]
Jenna Chuse
I do. I mean, you know, I remember when I was first designing and I had hired someone else that had actually gone to design school. I'm like, oh, you know, how many inches between the sofa and the coffee table? And they're like, oh, they didn't teach me that. I'm like, well, what did they teach you? I'm like, like, all I want to know is like, you know, how high should a lamp be on a 28 inch table when you're sitting next to it so you don't see the bulb? I wanted to know those rules that I thought they had learned in design school. And I have yet to have someone work for me that was taught that in design school.
- [08:36]
Unknown
Is that just like a book of knowledge that you build for yourself by getting it wrong, or where does that come from?
- [08:44]
Jenna Chuse
When I wanted to find out, after I'd completed the first project, I would sit there and I would measure and then I would figure out that the best is 18 to 22 inches between the edge of a sofa and a coffee table, depending on the scale of both. And so then I would have a little thing in my iPhone called Things to Remember, and I'd put it in as like a thing to remember. It's like, and I need 12 to 14 inches of carpet behind a sofa so it doesn't look like the furniture's falling off. And then I'd write that down. And so every project I'd learn something. And it was like, oh, I only put that curtain rod 10 inches past the window and it looks short. I think that from now on, I'm always going to use a 12 to 14 inch pastel window of a certain size. So every project I would just like, look and be like, that's not quite right. It's going to pass. No one's going to notice. But it's not perfect. And so I would just have these lists on my phone of like, I'll never do that again.
- [09:36]
Unknown
Yeah, well, is there something empowering about realizing that the information you were reaching for didn't come from design school anyway?
- [09:45]
Jenna Chuse
Absolutely. Because then I didn't feel like a fraud. You know, everyone always has imposter syndrome. And at first, at first, I have to say, like, when I started doing it, I would just show up and I was like, oh, my God, what Have I done, like, do I really know what I'm doing? Like, yes, I did my own house. It was beautiful, blah, blah, blah. But, like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And then it took, you know, two years, I would say, to sort of feel confident walking in and being like, yes, I am an interior designer. You know, give me a call. We'll talk about your project. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it took a minute, but I think it can be learned. And I think that, you know, I came from fashion, so obviously I had a creative, creative schooling about color and fabric and texture. It's not like I went to school in finance. You know, like, I did have creative color and theory and all of that.
- [10:33]
Unknown
When you look back at this decade in business, what part of running your firm has tested you the most as an entrepreneur?
- [10:43]
Jenna Chuse
I think being afraid to put money into my business. So I'm now in my third office, and I now have six people who work for me. And I think that's what I was always afraid of is, like, building something and then not having the business to support it and then being like, oh, my gosh, I don't have enough money to, like, run this office and have these people working for me. And that's been something that I've had to get used to because I've always, you know, it started off, like me and my house with, like, someone I knew as my assistant. Then, like, I started to hire other assistants, and I got my first office, and then Covid happened, and then I opened my store, and we said, oh, okay, well, I'll just work in the back of the store, because if the store doesn't work, at least I'm just paying for the rent. Like, I've always been really safe. And then finally sort of grew out of the store, and now we've just moved into this huge office in Red Hook. And, you know, I just cross my fingers that I'll still have a business. You know, like, it's always so scary. You have to grow and hire people and get bigger spaces and do all these things to take on larger projects and to, like, keep going in the direction you want to go in. And that's risk, and I just have to get used to taking risk.
- [11:57]
Unknown
Was growth always a goal for you? Did you always think, I want to hire people, I want to take on that bigger project? Or was there temptation to stay small at the beginning?
- [12:06]
Jenna Chuse
Absolutely. So I had spent 13 years doing a startup, going from two people to 50 people, sales reps all over the world, and I was Like, I don't want to manage anyone. I was not a good manager. You know what? Like, I was actually never a good manager because I work really hard, but I like to do it myself. So I'm a horrible delegator. And I was like, you know what? The next thing, I just want to do something myself that maybe I need, like, one assistant to help me. Like, I don't want anything big. I don't want to have to answer to anyone. I don't want to have to, like, manage, you know, I was like, I don't. I'm just going to do this and see how it goes and do a couple projects. And then, like, then it started growing, and I was like, you know what? After. And then I took a break. Let's say this because I had been working since I was 23. We sold Dwell in 2013, and I'd had two kids. I had never not worked. And so I took the entire summer off and traveled with the kids. I needed that break. And so then when my business started taking off, I was like, you know what? Let's go. Let's do this. I'm ready. I'm ready to work, and I don't want free time. Like, I love working. I love being really busy. And I'm like, you know what? Let's do it. Let's get this going. Let's try to see what I can make of this.
- [13:24]
Unknown
How did your goals evolve from when you launched the firm? How has the industry changed around you? How has that shaped your ambitions? How have you felt that evolution?
- [13:35]
Jenna Chuse
I think the firm has changed because we've gotten better, bigger projects. You know, we did a lot of construction. I ended up having an architect on staff and doing all that. And then I realized, no, I do not want to do construction management ever, ever again. So now we only. We. Basically, most of our projects are with an architectural firm as a partner.
- [13:57]
Unknown
That's a really interesting switch, because I feel like so many people are talking about wanting more control over construction or wanting to sort of. No.
- [14:07]
Jenna Chuse
Why.
- [14:07]
Unknown
Why would you caution against that?
- [14:09]
Jenna Chuse
Because we're responsible. Like, that is not the creative part of the job. Like. Like, when I'm talking. When we work with architectural firms, we're starting from the beginning. We're in, like, the first SD meeting and, like, doing the layout. So I have all those good creative parts, but I don't have to do the drawing. You know, I'll do our own elevations and sketchup models and blah, blah, blah, but I won't have to do construction drawings. I have. I don't have to bid it out. I don't have to be responsible on the contractor's timeline when he's late. They were always late. They were always. It was always disappointing. And like. And then I felt that we spent so much time apologizing to our clients. Like, okay, he said, it's going to be another two weeks. And then I. It's not the part of the business that we wanted to be in. Like, I have creative people working for me. Like someone who's a project manager of a construction project. It's something totally different. And like, it's not a business I want to be in. And also, when we started doing bigger projects, they had architects they were working with. And I was like, you know what? This is. This is what we're taking on and this is what we want in the future. We want larger projects with an architect or an architectural firm as a partner. And we do the creative. They run the construction. And also, like, I can have bigger ideas. When I had big ideas, I would have to figure out how to do it. Like, once I wanted to make a bathroom vanity and metal and with turn legs. And yes, I could have done it. I could have. You know, we would source a metal worker, we would have done the drawings and we've gone back and forth with them. But now I just draw it and I give it to the architects and they're like, yeah, we can make that. We have. We have people who can make that. This is going to be easy. And so I feel like that has made me more creative because I would stop myself from doing things like that when I was smaller because I was like, oh, God, I'm just creating a new project for myself. Like, I'm never. This is going to be horrible. Like, I'm not. Let's. Let's just do wood. But now I feel like I'm doing really cool things because the people around me have these sources. They. They know how to execute it. Yeah. And so it just frees us up.
- [16:13]
Unknown
Is there a financial trade off? I mean, I'm guessing there was a lot of time, maybe billable time, spent overseeing a project. Do you miss the revenue portion of that?
- [16:24]
Jenna Chuse
Yes. When we're in control of the whole project, I would take a percentage of the contractor. But then, you know, my financial person actually said he completely advised against that, that the contract should always be in the client's name because if not, I'm liable. And so, you know, I gave that up. But now, like, if I'm working on a project That's a complete renovation or a new build. I divide the design fe into two segments. So it's the pre interior portion is working with the architect throughout the schematic design construction phase and being available for meetings and doing all that stuff so that I do still charge part of the design fee. And then when the next stage starts, there's another design fee for the interiors. So I sort of break it up.
- [17:15]
Unknown
Are those flat fees or are those hourly?
- [17:17]
Jenna Chuse
I do flat fees, and then I divide it monthly just for cash flow for myself and for the client.
- [17:23]
Unknown
How do clients respond to that? How long have you been doing it that way and how this is taking me?
- [17:28]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, this is like, I've done everything I've done. I went to flat fee, then I went to hourly, then I went to this, and I went to that. And I actually think this is great because it just makes it like, when I say the design fee, I also show what the monthly fee will be, and it's just a little bit more digestible when they see it broken down monthly. And then it also sort of says, okay, I think we're going to work on that portion for six months, and then we're going to do this portion for four months. And I'm going to bill you every month for this amount. And it just feels like there's a flow. And I think they like it. And I think they also, like, I was doing hourly for a while, and I was like, oh, this is really great. Like, I'm making so much more money doing hourly. But I hated sending people the bill. Like, I just like, oh, my God. Do you think that this is gonna. They're gonna be like, what the hell was she doing? Like, I hated. There was too much pressure. Like, I felt bad, and then I'd always underestimate my hours. And it was just, like, super. You know, I don't think it was good for either of us because they want to know how much they're spending. They don't want to be surprised. And then I want to be paid for what I think I'm doing. So I feel like the design fee is just sort of like, okay, this is what it'll cost. You're not going to be charged any more than this, so you can. And when we do our budget, we're going to put this number in. And then that's also paired with, you know, a 30% markup on the net price. So that's how. And I've been doing this for about two years, and I feel like I finally settled on, you know, coming up with a design feed, that's another story, but I feel like, as just a concept, it's a very good way to work.
- [19:03]
Caitlin Peterson
We're taking a quick break to remind you that it's not too late to apply to Ethan Allen's trade program. Trade members gain access to Ethan Allen's floor planner for creating gorgeous presentations that will stop your clients in their tracks, including floor plans, 3D images, and even 3D video previews of their proposed projects. An Ethan Allen concierge can recommend furniture frames, pull together samples, and help independent designers create presentations that will truly wow your clients. Put the tools of Ethan Allen trade to work for you. Apply today@ethanallen.com trade. That's ethanalin.com/trade.
- [19:45]
Unknown
Are you billing for the project management time then? Is there a fee for that or is that sort of folded into the markup portion of your business?
- [19:54]
Jenna Chuse
So after we do the ordering, so. So there's the design fee for the interiors, and then we order, and then that's 30%. After that, there's a lot of management that comes. So basically at that point, I'm like. Then we go hourly and I try to explain to clients, you know, like, it's really for like, oh, we're going to do a new room or I'm going to end up being on site because, you know, we're going to end up doing all the art or, you know, like something that's sort of extra, you know, not doing a lot, but like, yes, because then the project. We've had projects go on for like a year later than I thought. And I had. Yeah, I had to have something that sort of also. Who covered that time? So basically it's a design fee, a commission structure, and then an hourly on just like, as the project is going forward and closing or, you know, doing little projects or different things that were not in the original.
- [20:49]
Unknown
Yeah, but like someone on your team calling a vendor to be like, hi, is this sofa still on track to arrive on this date? That's all part of the markup.
- [20:58]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, I say that the. The 30% covers the production of the order, which is price, ordering it, following it through, having it delivered, and that's why we're getting paid that fee.
- [21:11]
Unknown
Do you feel different when you talk about money to clients now that you're doing it this way?
- [21:17]
Jenna Chuse
Yes, and I think I've been doing it long enough to figure out what it cost me to do a project, because sometimes before that, I mean, hourly helped a little bit actually by doing it Hourly. I realized how many hours it was taking so I could better estimate a design fee when I went into this new billing system.
- [21:41]
Unknown
How many jobs is comfortable or typical for the firm at one time?
- [21:45]
Jenna Chuse
So I have two senior junior teams and that's also like. That is like the money. It's taken me such a long time to figure out the best process and I really feel like this is good. So I split the projects up between the two teams and I would say like 14 to 16 projects in different stages. So we have a senior and a junior and the senior, like, it's. My team's great because the seniors are so different and they have different skill sets. And then so it's really easy for me to like get a project and to be like, okay, this is more architectural. I'm going to give this to Juan and Durga. Or this is more, just interior based or more like, you know, so it's. That's how I divide them up. So the teams, the team skill sets are not the same.
- [22:34]
Unknown
And then who are the other. What rounds out your team? Who are the other employees?
- [22:39]
Jenna Chuse
And then I have. We have a design assistant and she. I used to have a lot of interns, but now I have a full time design assistant. So she helps do everything. I mean, there's always something that needs to be taken somewhere or somebody needs to show up for, you know, something to be delivered. Like, she's busy every and all day. And then we have a store manager who only does the antique side of our business.
- [23:02]
Unknown
As your firm has evolved, what's the biggest business pivot that put your firm on a different trajectory?
- [23:09]
Jenna Chuse
I think it was when. So I moved and redid a townhouse in 2019.
- [23:14]
Unknown
For yourself?
- [23:15]
Jenna Chuse
For myself. And I did all the architectural work. I did everything. It literally almost killed me. And that was in ad. And that's what changed my business completely. And the best part of that is that when it's your own house, it's who you are as a creative person. It's like everything that you love. And when people respond to everything that I love, the right clients were coming to me and they're like, oh, we love that. And I'm like, well, then you got it. Like, I mean, then I know I can give you that because that's who I am and that's what my design, you know, esthetic is. That's everything I love. So I felt so comfortable and it like, it was amazing. And only getting clients who really want me for my style.
- [23:59]
Unknown
Do you look now for clients who reference that project as the reason they want to work with you?
- [24:05]
Jenna Chuse
Well, honestly, a lot of people do, naturally, because so that happened. And then I got all these projects, and all of those projects are sort of completed now two years later. And so I'm now I've just shot five projects, so I didn't even have that much else out there at one point. I had, like, my house and, like, a couple of other really good projects, but now is the slew of them coming out that are results of being hired from my house.
- [24:31]
Unknown
Do you feel poised to kind of have another, like, kind of, like, big step after this once. Once the world starts to see what you've been working on?
- [24:39]
Jenna Chuse
Yes.
- [24:40]
Unknown
How does it feel to be sitting on all of that?
- [24:43]
Jenna Chuse
I, like, I'm with my fingers crossed because, like, I know that this is how you get business and, like, you have to have the project seen and that's how you get more business. So I'm like, I'm so excited to put these out into the world. So I think two are going to now be. Have just been accepted. So I'm really excited about that.
- [25:02]
Unknown
Congratulations.
- [25:04]
Jenna Chuse
Thank you. I basically have five projects that I'll have finished and the photos will be ready to be seen. And, yeah, I hope that will give me a big push for mid-2025 and get, you know, and I'll have another whole slew of new customers. That's what I'm hoping for.
- [25:22]
Unknown
I want to go back to 2019 and your house. We talk on the show about getting published all the time and whether or not that's sort of like the lever that matters the most. Do you think it was about being in ad? Do you think it was about the house itself and sort of that representation of you?
- [25:40]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, I mean, I think it was a good project, and I think that when it goes out to 8 million Instagram viewers, you have a business. I think it's very important. I mean, I would say, like, most of my business comes from Instagram, so.
- [25:55]
Unknown
It wasn't necessarily about someone who, like, bought the magazine or a subscriber. It was about the digital viewership.
- [26:01]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah. And let me just clarify. It was not printed in the magazine. They. It was a home tour, web story. But, like, honestly, it's the same now. I mean, I think that when they get you in front of 8 million.
- [26:15]
Unknown
People, the paper doesn't matter.
- [26:18]
Jenna Chuse
It really doesn't. Like, I mean, of course I'd love to be in print because I just think there's something like, have it on the newsstands, but I Mean, honestly, like, I think these web stories are really. They're very powerful.
- [26:29]
Unknown
Did the clients who see this kitchen or just the project in general, are they coming to you through Instagram DMs? Did you have a way to kind of collect those leads and funnel through them? Like, were you ready for what happened to your business?
- [26:45]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah. I mean, and that. I think that comes from me being older and have been in business long enough. Like, my website's been up since the very beginning. I've had all the emails correct. I've had, like, a landing page for Product Inquiry. Like, I know how to do all that, and I was ready for that so that those just come in through another email so I can collect them and they. I don't lose them.
- [27:05]
Unknown
Wait, that actually alone is really smart. No one's ever said that on this show before. Oh, really? No.
- [27:11]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, because it's nice. It's like Project Inquiry at Chusev & Co. And it just sits as, like, another mailbox. And I know they're all there.
- [27:18]
Unknown
That's great.
- [27:19]
Caitlin Peterson
Are you.
- [27:20]
Unknown
Are you the one vetting incoming projects or who tackles that on your team? And what are you looking for these days?
- [27:27]
Jenna Chuse
I want to make sure that the project is big enough and people are going into it knowing what it cost. You know, you'll get a lot of people that are young, and I think that they don't know how much things cost, and that just ends up being a frustrating project for both the designer and the client. Because the other thing is, I think a lot of everyone wants to use a designer. Why wouldn't they? But I think it's a luxury, it's expensive, and I don't think people know that. And so when I get someone young that doesn't know that, that's a red flag for me because I don't think they can afford. When they tell me the budget, I'm like, honestly, you shouldn't hire me. Like, you should use your entire budget for your furniture. Like, why would you take 30% of the number you're giving me? And, you know, you're not going to have enough.
- [28:15]
Unknown
Do the leads that come in all come in with sort of a stylistic alignment?
- [28:20]
Jenna Chuse
Yes. And that's the beauty of, like, how this. How my business really took off and started, you know, because once I had my house, then I had clients who wanted that. So now all of my projects are very much Houston & Co. In my aesthetic and my vision for interiors.
- [28:37]
Unknown
You mentioned that, you know, the success of this project also sort of was the validation. You were looking for running your own company. How did that change your outlook about being a boss, about being at the helm, and about what you wanted to build from that point forward?
- [28:59]
Jenna Chuse
It gave me a lot of confidence, and I was like, I knew it. Like, I thought this was pretty good, and now other people do, too. And so it gave me the confidence, and I just wanted to do it again and again and again. And so when I started to get the bigger projects, that was always very scary because I had to build a team. You know, I didn't have enough people for the amount of requests I was getting in. And then I also probably didn't have the process down right. So there was a lot of. There's a huge learning curve of, okay, how do we get our ideas across? Like, what does our mood board look like? Do we need to do three Ds? Like, how are we going to present it to someone so they know what we're talking about? And that's always been a huge. My biggest thing is, like, every time we do a presentation, we always do something different and better. Because I never. I never think. I never can really fully get what's inside my head on paper to someone who might not be able to visualize something. And so I think with AI like, you know, we're doing renderings, and those take, you know, back and forth to someone who. Who does the rendering for, like, a week. And that's not the answer. I think, hopefully AI in the next two years will have tools where we can sort of be able to present an idea and have it be come across as what you're trying to show versus, you know, okay, having a piece of fabric, having a picture of a sofa, and trying to figure out, like.
- [30:27]
Unknown
You know, is what you're looking for that simple? Kind of like having something to, like, put this fabric on that sofa. Or are you looking for something more complex from AI?
- [30:37]
Jenna Chuse
No, honestly, I would be like. I'd feed in the room, and I'd be like, I want to try this room with these four pieces. I want these. This fabric on these four pieces. I want to put a light here. I want to walk through this room. I want to make sure the furniture feels right. I want to look at the color story. Even though it might not be perfect, I can still see the holes, and I change them. That's what I want. Because even when I do renderings now, it helps me. Like, sometimes I'll look at it and I'll be like, oh, my gosh, we cannot do that. And then I'll Change it.
- [31:03]
Unknown
I asked for this, but.
- [31:04]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, but that's it. But the rendering system is probably like MP3 players before the iPhone came out. Right, right. It's a clunky process. That's not. It doesn't have. It's not going to succeed long term because of the time it takes to do it. And then you look at it and then you're like, oh, no, I want to change everything because I don't like it. So then someone else, you know, someone has to then go and like create pieces again. And we only do it now for clients who really can't visualize and we can't convince them of something. And it's usually for like bathrooms or something or marble or kitchens. And so now we'll do like a black and white sketchup and then we'll try to Photoshop things in. And that's helpful because it's not so realistic. Because also sometimes it's too realistic. They're like, well, I don't want it to look like that. And you're like, well, you know, it's.
- [31:56]
Unknown
Not going to look like the Sims.
- [31:57]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [32:02]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [32:32]
Unknown
What is sort of the cadence or how does your presentation to a client unfold right now? What are you showing them? How are you explaining the concept, the pieces, the decision making process?
- [32:44]
Jenna Chuse
So the first thing we'll usually do is do a furniture plan. And, you know, we'll do like two different plans for each room. And we'll go through that and just make sure that we know what we're looking for and create a budget from that. So before we even look for anything, I want to know, I want them to be realistic about what it's going to cost and know the price point of what I'm looking for and for them to see how much really goes into a room. And so once we have that sort of outline and then the next time, depending on how large the house is, we'll start doing a deep dive. And I used to do it in multiple meetings, but now it's sort of like once I get in and design a room, I just design the room. So I can do it much faster now. So by the second meeting, as many rooms as we can start to put together, we show them. But you know, I think that also, like, you don't want like a five hour meeting. So we try to divide that. We're gonna like, let's do the first floor. And if I'm, and if I'm doing, if it's a construction project or we're designing kitchens and bathrooms, that's a whole other level. So we'll do that separately. And then we go into lighting pretty fast because I need to know where, you know, I have to have it in the construction documents, where I want sconces, where all the lighting is going. And that was a learning curve because lighting used to be. I used to choose it as part of the room and I was always too late. Like, they're like, where are the sconces? I'm like, oh, but I don't even know what the room looks like yet. And so now having to think about lighting first, it helps everyone on the project A, because like, that's the first thing you do. And we start to at least, you know, like ceiling fixtures. I can always change out the very last minute. But it's really like the sconce boxes and hi hats and like where everything is going. You have to choose pretty at the beginning of the project. It's like one of the first things we do.
- [34:34]
Unknown
How do you keep them enthusiastic throughout the life cycle of a project?
- [34:38]
Jenna Chuse
I think the worst comes in when I, when I have my angry clients. It's punchless time because no one can get. There's, you know, like the very end, everything's done and there's like a two page list of like what the contractor has to come back to do, what the painter has to come back to do. The one piece that was arrived broken, that you're getting a replacement. That is the bane of my existence. Like that last two pages of a project.
- [35:04]
Unknown
Is there a way to help clients ease that frustration for clients? How do you talk to them about that, that piece of getting across the finish line?
- [35:14]
Jenna Chuse
Honestly, you just need to get it done. You need to figure out how to be. You need to withhold money. You need to figure out like, I think you have to be, you know, because I think we're really nice and we're like so understanding. But I think at the end you have to be a bitch. Like, you have to. Something has to be on the line to get these people back because they don't want to come back. And like Put one nail in a wall, you know, like so. Yeah. But you know, sometimes what we'll do is we'll hire someone else. Well, like all those little things, if we feel like we can do it ourselves, I'll take our handyman and I'll go over and just do all this stuff that I'm waiting for five different trades to come and do. In the end, it is still up to us to get it done. And I think that I was just like asking myself before we got on the phone, I was like, how do I get this done? And I think you have to like, really? I'm like, we owe you money, right? And you're like, yeah, okay, well you're not going to get that money until you come. Do you want that money? Like you have to just be like, there's something in it for you.
- [36:11]
Unknown
You mentioned that you shoot, you know, you're going to close out the project and shoot it. Do you shoot every project?
- [36:16]
Jenna Chuse
Yes.
- [36:17]
Unknown
How do you wrap your head around some of the costs that come with that?
- [36:20]
Jenna Chuse
I mean, well, I don't hire a PR person and so it really in my budget for the year. It's just photography. Marketing. It's marketing because like that's how I get my job. So that's why it's important. But it costs so much money now. You know, I think in the price range, I think that the photographers that everyone seems to be using are now all between six and $7,000 a day.
- [36:47]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [36:48]
Jenna Chuse
And I think you can do the 3,500, 4,500, but they're probably the younger crowd. Like all, all I know is like the people's names that you see all over Instagram, they're about six to $7,000 a day.
- [37:01]
Unknown
And the stylist is more.
- [37:03]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, and the stylist is 25 to 4,500. And then they always get like a thousand dollars of flowers, which I need to stop doing because I never use them. And. And then if it's a two day shoot, I mean, it's crazy. You know, luckily some of the bigger projects that would be a two day shoot, an architect is involved too. So he wants the pictures and then you can split them. But then I was like, oh yeah, we'll just split this. But then I didn't realize that the photographer charges more for someone else to use them. So the bill went up too.
- [37:34]
Unknown
Right. You're like, oh, that cost savings. Was not.
- [37:37]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, was not as I thought.
- [37:39]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:40]
Jenna Chuse
But I have to say, like, there's no getting out of it you need the best possible pictures of your projects, period. That's how you'll get the next job.
- [37:51]
Unknown
I agree with that. Something funny we've been talking about sort of internally at BOH is the changing landscape of designers paying all this money for the photography, for the stylist, and then those images often getting picked up and being run as is. I know you said you had a couple commitments for these kind of upcoming projects. Is it your film that's being published or are those getting reshot?
- [38:16]
Jenna Chuse
No, a hundred percent. Like, the magazines have no budgets for photoshoots anymore.
- [38:21]
Unknown
It feels like that's final now, which is interesting. I feel like it had. Felt like it was in flux for a while, and that just feels like a foregone conclusion now. And it's. It's wild. It's different.
- [38:31]
Jenna Chuse
It really is. And because this sort of online home tour has become so popular, they're accepting more projects. And then, you know, if I send scouting photos and be like, oh, maybe this, they'll shoot it. I did that to one really good project and she was like, no, this looks like, you know, like, she's like, no, thank you.
- [38:52]
Unknown
They weren't looking for potential. They were looking for, like, the done deal.
- [38:55]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah. And so then I actually went and shot it, and then it got picked up by, like, two publications. So it's like you can't even show people unless they're professional shots.
- [39:04]
Unknown
Are you styling or photographing with a certain publication in mind when you approach a shoot?
- [39:11]
Jenna Chuse
Honestly, yes. I mean, obviously we want the publication that has the most followers, because when they post it, it's going to have the most eyes, and that is ad. I use it as a tool to get more business, period. And so that's what I'm thinking about. Like, how do I get it in front of as many people as possible so that great new projects people reach out to me because they like it and they know. Otherwise, how would they know about me? I think sometimes people don't even want to share their designer because they don't want their friend to have the same look that they have. So I don't think word of mouth is as strong as a tool for getting new business. I think it's getting people to see your imagery, whether it's on Instagram or getting people to your website or pinning your images, because that's how everyone's doing it. So you need these images out there so people can pin them and have you on there. A lot of people will come to me because a picture of mine was on their inspiration board. That's important. I also think it's important to get on best of list. Like, if you're someone who needs to find a designer to interview, where are you going? What are you looking at? Maybe you're going to Ad Pro and looking at that directory. You're looking at directories, you're looking at Pinterest, you're looking at Instagram. So I think getting yourself on those lists, it's all about being seen. Otherwise, how someone going to find you.
- [40:32]
Unknown
Where does the store come into all of this? What made you want that and how has that developed?
- [40:40]
Jenna Chuse
It started at a very young age with my grandmother. And I love flea markets. I love antique markets. Like, I can't stop shopping and I couldn't. You know, like when you're in Paris and like, you're not in the same time zone and you're finding stuff for people, I mean, I can't be on the phone with all these sending them pictures, trying to convince them that it's.
- [41:00]
Unknown
Four in the morning eastern time.
- [41:01]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, yeah. Doing videos. And I was like, I know this is really good. I just want to get it. And so it started from just sort of like, I'm buying too much and I now have to open a store.
- [41:12]
Unknown
Okay.
- [41:13]
Jenna Chuse
Then I was like, I would love a store. I've always wanted a store. So then, yeah, I got the store. And then I was like, oh, it's super safe, because I would have to have an office anyway. So now I'm in the back of the office. But then that lasted about six months, and then we, like, totally. There was just too much stuff. So now we have an office. And now the store has to be sustainable. Like, obviously, I'm my best customer, but it's great, you know, like, I keep the store in business and then if I can get other interior designers and, you know, retail customers too. But I think that I'd really love to get other designers involved with, you know, coming to me as a source. I mean, that's my favorite part of the whole process is sourcing. And so I do it. I do it because I love it, and it keeps me able to travel and buy. But we've gotten to this point. It's a huge turning point where I have to sort of bring it up, meaning I have to spend some money getting the store to look a certain way to handle the price points of the items I'm selling.
- [42:12]
Unknown
Okay.
- [42:13]
Jenna Chuse
I don't think it was there, and I think it was sort of like when I first opened, it was just Sort of like, let's just throw everything that doesn't sell and we'll.
- [42:19]
Unknown
How long you opened? About a year, a year and a half ago. Is that right?
- [42:22]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah, a year and a half ago. And I'm sort of glad that I didn't, like, publicize it, because it's taking me that long to figure out, like, what it is I want. And then I also don't think I realized, like, I need it to look like my interiors because someone needs to be inspired to want to live there. You know, like, when you walk in a great store and you're like, oh, my God, I want everything. I want to live here. Well, then that will be like, oh, you know, this is actually Jenna Chuse, and she. This is her store, and, like, you can hire her to do your home. So I don't think I fully realized that. And that costs a lot of money, and I just have to do it. I think. I think I can have a great business, and so I have to just put money into it. So I'm putting money into the store, I'm putting money into the website, and I'm putting money into photographing the projects. I mean, the products, which is, again, very expensive. But I think that if I don't have good imagery of these pieces, then they're never going to. You need to create a mood when you shoot these pieces, and it needs to represent the esthetic or the interior that this piece would be in. And it needs to get people thinking. And so that's not easy. And that. And I. We're so busy with other things, I haven't really given enough time to that. And so basically, in the next three months, that's what I'm doing. And we're just sort of going for it and seeing if we can, like, develop that business, too.
- [43:42]
Unknown
We talk a lot on this show about how a principal's role evolves as their team grows, as the shape of their business evolves. Where is your role in the project? What have you wanted to hold on to even as your firm changes around you?
- [43:57]
Jenna Chuse
I still. I sit with everyone because I hear everything that's going on. Like, I'm in the office a lot. Like, with the team, we work very closely together. So, like, if they're doing a presentation, they're constantly running it by me because I'm always. I can help them a sort of figure out a mistake that I see that could possibly, you know, like, they're getting the wrong size, something that they wouldn't have known because they've never done That I can stop that mistake from happening. And then also I like to just make sure that they're on the right track aesthetically. And so I'm always, They're always. I mean, I think they all know me well enough now that they get it right more often than not, but I'm always on it. As soon as they finish something, I look at it and it's fast now. And I trust them more now that we've gotten busier, they can get further along with the presentation.
- [44:49]
Unknown
How does that feel?
- [44:50]
Jenna Chuse
Feels amazing.
- [44:51]
Unknown
Okay.
- [44:51]
Jenna Chuse
Oh my God. It's the most amazing thing to have people who are doing some of the things that would take so long or, you know, be so just like time eaters and me being able to focus on better ideas. And so now I found myself only being able to do the creative and only being able to source and only being able to be inspired. And it's, it's completely changed the output because I'm getting so much more in me and more inspiration and I'm coming up with just like better ideas.
- [45:23]
Unknown
How did you. I mean, we were talking at the beginning about both being the kind of person that often just says, oh, I'll just do it right? Like, I'll just take that always.
- [45:32]
Jenna Chuse
Yeah.
- [45:32]
Unknown
How did you get over that?
- [45:34]
Jenna Chuse
It's hiring the right people and having the right people around me and I have such a great team. And that's taken a while because I think that I've gotten better people as I've gotten more known because, like, if you put an ad out for a designer, then the designer is always going to want to go to the most well known firm. So, like, when I wasn't as well known, I might not have been getting the same talent that I can get now. And so I have such a good team and we work so closely together that I trust them. And so when I can trust them to do it, then I can release it. But it honestly, that is the first time in my life it's probably been like this year that I've ever done that. Otherwise I just do it myself. I just, I'm afraid of something going wrong or it's like easier for me to do it than even say it out loud. You know, I just, I, I need to, I need to delegate and I think I've been much better at it.
- [46:35]
Unknown
How do you think about your firm's evolution moving forward as we follow your career for the next decade? What do you want us to see?
- [46:44]
Jenna Chuse
You know, we talked about size of firms. I don't want I don't think I want to get bigger than I am right now. Maybe I would get another team. But I like the size. I don't. I don't want to have to manage more or run more or be. I think it would just stress me out. So I really like the size I am, and I think that the goal now is to get, you know, bigger projects and more lucrative projects, and I think that's what I'd like to see going forward. And then also making things, because I come from, like, a manufacturing background, so, you know, I do my own rugs. I want to sort of, like, make that into a rug line. I want to make, you know, I have all these ideas for wallpaper, doing a wallpaper line. Like, I'm not necessarily that interested in licensing, creating things that. That we could sell in the store. Or like, you know, maybe we do a coffee table that we love that was so special in a project, and we offer that to people through the store. You know, offer the rugs through the store, do the wallpaper line through the store. I could see myself doing that.
- [47:47]
Unknown
What does success mean to you?
- [47:50]
Jenna Chuse
Success means having the size of business I want and it operating itself and making money on top of just operating and being recognized, you know, for my efforts. Honestly, I would love to be 8100 or El Decor. Like, I would love to be on a list, because I think that would just sort of cap off my years of hard work. And it was sort of almost even cap off, like, all my years of hard work, because so for so long, I was behind the curtain and I just stayed there. And I think that was frustrating for me. I didn't realize how frustrated I was. And so now being front and center and being like, oh, it's you. This is your style. This is your work. This. It's like my artwork. A home is my. It's me, you know, like, I did it. And I think it's important from. It's not important because I'm like, an egomaniac. It's important because of where I've been and how long I've been working for other people that I might not have gotten all of the creative recognition that I deserved. That's why it's important to me.
- [48:57]
Unknown
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Before you go, if you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, more great podcasts, check out new products, or browse job openings, head on.
- [49:09]
Caitlin Peterson
Over to business owners. If you have a note for the.
- [49:12]
Unknown
Show or a story of your own to share. I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@tradetalesusinessofhome.com finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson with Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castanet. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you again in two weeks.