Jim Dove on why designers need to know how to sell themselves

Summary

Trade Tales: Jim Dove on Why Designers Need to Know How to Sell Themselves

Episode Release Date: August 14, 2024
Host: Kaitlin Petersen, Business of Home

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Introduction

In the latest episode of Trade Tales, Kaitlin Petersen, editor-in-chief of Business of Home, sits down with renowned architect and kitchen designer, Jim Dove. Jim shares his journey from his early inspirations to establishing a successful design firm in both New Jersey and Palm Beach. He delves into the critical role of sales in design, the challenges of team building, and the evolving landscape of kitchen design in luxury markets.

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Jim Dove's Career Journey

Jim Dove’s passion for design was ignited during his freshman year in college through a transformative course called Architectural Treasures of Europe. Reflecting on this pivotal experience, Jim states:

“I was 17 years old. I was never on an airplane. We started in Madrid, went to Istanbul, went to Cairo, Luxor, and ended in Paris. It literally changed my life.” (00:30)

This trip solidified his commitment to the world of art and design. After spending a few years in advertising, Jim pursued a master's degree in architecture at UCLA. However, his tenure at a commercial design firm, which involved creating architectural plans for airport projects, didn’t resonate with his true interests.

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Establishing and Relocating the Business

Jim’s career took a significant turn when he moved to Glenwood Springs, Colorado, landing a role at a kitchen design company. His enthusiasm for kitchen design surged as he transitioned from small kitchens to sprawling 20,000-square-foot log cabins in Aspen. Jim explains:

“When you do the kitchen, you know, you're one of the centerpieces of the house. You're an important player to the client, you're an important player to the architect.” (04:00)

In 2013, Jim founded his own firm, focusing exclusively on kitchen design. This specialization allowed him to build a strong reputation, leading to the eventual relocation of his business to the luxury market of Palm Beach in 2021. This move provided a fresh perspective on succeeding in a competitive environment.

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Importance of a Physical Studio

Having a tangible representation of his brand proved crucial for Jim’s success in Palm Beach. He emphasizes the significance of a well-designed studio in establishing credibility and attracting clients:

“People walk in and go, oh, I know who you are. Jim Dove is what they see, what I do. You know, the room, the designs speak for themselves.” (05:38)

Jim meticulously crafted his studio to reflect his design philosophy, transforming it into a living space that showcases his expertise:

“I made it a living space. There's a banquet. There's comfortable wingback chairs at the dining room table. There's a fireplace mantel from Chesney's. … I created this very joyful living space.” (06:14)

This approach not only impresses visitors but also allows potential clients to envision their own homes through his designs.

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Show House Experiences

Jim has participated in several prestigious show houses, each playing a pivotal role in elevating his business:

1. Champagne Bar (2019):

   • A modest space that garnered praise from top designers like Jeff Lincoln. Jim recounts:

     “Jeff Lincoln came down… said, wow, I thought you were a hack. This is great.” (08:30)

   • This exposure connected him with industry leaders and expanded his vision beyond Short Hills to Palm Beach.

2. Monkey Bar (2020-21):

   • Showcased his talents in Palm Beach, earning feature placements in high-profile design publications. Jim notes:

     “It was a beautiful story in the shiny sheet… great exposure.” (10:34)

3. Whole Kitchen (2024):

   • The latest show house allowed Jim to fully demonstrate his specialization in kitchen design, receiving unanimous positive feedback from clients and peers alike.

Through these show houses, Jim effectively positioned himself as a leading kitchen designer in the luxury market, attracting a steady stream of high-end clients.

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Building a Team

As his firm grew, Jim faced the challenge of assembling a reliable and talented team. He highlights the importance of trial and error in the hiring process:

“I think it's trial and error. … When you have a great employee, it's easy. And when you don't have a good employee, business isn't easy.” (15:28)

Jim values long-term relationships, noting that his team members, such as project managers and draftspeople, are integral to maintaining consistent quality and client satisfaction. He stresses the necessity of having employees who not only possess technical skills but also align with the firm's vision and work ethic.

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Evolution of His Role

With the expansion of his firm, Jim’s role has evolved from handling clerical tasks to focusing primarily on design and sales:

“I'm focusing on design, I focus on sales, you know, and putting myself out there.” (17:12)

This shift allows him to dedicate more time to creative endeavors and client interactions, ensuring that his firm continues to deliver exceptional designs while fostering business growth.

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Embracing Sales in Design

Jim passionately advocates for the integration of salesmanship within the design profession. He believes that designers inherently possess sales skills, as they must effectively communicate and sell their vision to clients:

“We're all in sales and every talented designer I know is a really good salesman. You have to know how to sell yourself to be successful.” (17:58)

For Jim, selling isn’t merely about promoting products but about building trust and conveying a compelling design narrative. He articulates:

“The most important thing is gaining a client's trust and that's through your personality and your knowledge.” (18:16)

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Challenges: Cash Flow and Personalities

Running a design firm presents significant entrepreneurial challenges, particularly in managing cash flow and navigating diverse client personalities.

Cash Flow Management: Jim highlights the unpredictability of income in the design industry, where payments from clients are often spread out over extended periods:

“There's a lot of work... that people don't see.” (29:58)

To mitigate this, he established a disciplined savings strategy:

"I discovered a savings account that I can't touch to like… Sleep better at night fund." (34:25)

Managing Personalities: With multiple clients and stakeholders, Jim finds balancing different personalities demanding:

“You have to breathe and stay calm and let them… listening is so important.” (34:48)

He emphasizes the importance of consistency and professionalism in maintaining positive client relationships, even amidst conflicts or differing design opinions.

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Kitchen Design Trends and Client Needs

The role of the kitchen in modern homes has expanded beyond its traditional function, becoming a central living space. Jim discusses how this shift influences his design approach:

“Most people want everything in their kitchen. … They want art. I’m like, it’s a kitchen, you know.” (36:39)

To address diverse client expectations, Jim adopts a functional zoning strategy rather than relying solely on the classic kitchen work triangle. This method enhances both aesthetics and practicality:

“I do the public side of the kitchen and the cooking side of the kitchen… I separated sort of public space and private space.” (39:10)

By focusing on lifestyle-oriented questions, Jim ensures that each kitchen design aligns with the unique needs and habits of his clients:

“Lifestyle tells me more than anything… It tells you everything that you need to know about what a person needs in their kitchen.” (38:28)

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Business Growth and Future Plans

Jim is actively pursuing strategies to scale his business while maintaining design excellence. He is in the process of integrating a new, more affordable cabinet line to cater to a broader clientele:

“I'm bringing in a lower line… they don't want to spend 150 on the kitchen.” (20:41)

Additionally, Jim is focused on expanding his team by hiring junior designers who share his design sensitivity and sales acumen. This expansion aims to increase his firm’s capacity to take on more projects without compromising on quality.

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Defining Success

For Jim, success is a continual journey of improvement and client satisfaction. He remains driven by competitiveness and a desire to exceed expectations:

“I feel successful, but I think I can be more successful… It’s a good thing. That’s what makes us good.” (41:50)

Jim’s definition of success revolves around creating impactful designs that resonate with clients and fostering a dynamic work environment where both he and his team can thrive and innovate.

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Conclusion

Jim Dove’s episode on Trade Tales offers invaluable insights into the intersection of design and sales, the importance of specialized expertise, and the relentless pursuit of excellence in the luxury kitchen design market. His experiences underscore the necessity of building trust, adapting to evolving client needs, and continuously seeking growth opportunities. Aspiring and established designers alike can draw inspiration from Jim’s journey and apply his strategies to enhance their own practices.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jim Dove on gaining trust:
  “It takes more than a beautiful studio. It takes more than a great personality and talent and design. It takes time. It takes a while for you to gain their trust.” (07:31)

• On being a design therapist:
  “You have to read the person or try to read the person.” (36:20)

• On the evolving kitchen:
  “Your kitchen is 10 by 12. You can't help all that.” (37:02)

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Resources Mentioned:

• Business of Home Insider Access: Complimentary weekly educational workshops and an extensive course archive.
  Join at businessofhome.com

• Four Hands Designer Trade Program: Access to over 6,000 home pieces with exclusive pricing and discounts.
  Apply at fourhands.com

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Trade Tales is produced by Kaitlin Petersen with contributions from Fred Nicholas, Caroline Burke, and Michael Castaneda. For more episodes, visit businessofhome.com.

Transcript

[Jim Dove]

For people, especially in the industry, it takes a while for you to gain their trust. I realized that it takes more than a beautiful studio. It takes more than a great personality and talent and design. It takes time.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

Hi, I'm Kaitlyn Peterson, the editor in.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Chief of Business of Home.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season six of the show, where I'll be talking to interior design designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you'll hear your.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Own why echoed in these stories, or.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

An idea, or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is an architect who discovered a corner of the industry that played to his strengths, kitchen design. After firmly establishing his business in New Jersey, he began building a new client base in Palm beach, where he gained a fresh perspective on what it truly takes to make it in a major luxury market.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

I can't wait to share it with.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

You, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. Forance invites you to create a comforting space with their newest arrivals, all intentionally designed with rest and well being in mind. Look for the latest in the company's Power Motion collection featuring hidden reclining controls. Plus best selling pieces from the recently launched collaboration with Amber Lewis, which is now available in new fabrics and finishes. Visit fourhands.com to see more than 350 new arrivals and to get inspired today, ready to build a better design business? As a BoH Insider, you'll unlock complimentary access to weekly educational workshops with leading industry experts offering insights and best practices to level up your business. Plus, BoH insiders gain access to an archive with dozens of past courses to tackle your most pressing business problem, meaning there's always an expert solution within reach. Learn more and join us [e-mail] bohinsider.

[Jim Dove]

I grew up on the beach with no architecture in southern New Jersey. But really, what changed my life? My freshman year in college, I was in a course called the Visual Arts and I had this woman who became my mentor, my undergraduate. Her name was Ellen Muhammad. She was an artist and she had a course every winter break. It was called the Architectural Treasures of Europe. I was 17 years old. I was never on an airplane. We started in Madrid, went to Istanbul, went to Cairo, Luxor, and ended in Paris. It literally changed my life.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

That's Jim Dove. After that trip, his future quickly became clear. He knew that he belonged in the world of art and design. He spent a few years working in advertising, went back to UCLA for a.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Master'S degree in architecture, and then got.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

A job at a commercial design firm. The work included architectural plans for airport projects and never felt quite right. But what came next would change the course of his career.

[Jim Dove]

We moved to Glenwood Springs, Colorado, which is now in the mountains, Aspen. And I got a job working for a kitchen design company. And I loved it. I started with these small little kitchens. Within a few months, I was doing 20,000 square foot log cabins, you know, in Sterwood and Aspen. And I'm working with the architects, I'm working with the builders. When you do the kitchen, you know, you're one of the centerpieces of the house. You're an important player. You know, you're an important player to the client, you're an important player to the architect. You're part of the play, which is interesting.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

Jim thrived in kitchen design, especially when it came to selling his vision to clients. After several successful years in Colorado, his growing family headed back to the east coast, where an entirely new chapter awaited.

[Jim Dove]

So I moved back to New Jersey and went to work for another kitchen design firm. Her name was Joan Picone. She's retired. You know, up until that point, it was cabinetry in a room. But she was right at the edge of kitchens, sort of becoming furniture, becoming living rooms. And we were really at the. At the forefront of doing furniture in kitchens. I went out on my own from there.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

Since 2013, Jim has been at the helm of his own firm. In the years that followed, he followed his clients to West Palm beach, first for a couple jobs, then setting up a satellite office, and finally officially relocating his business in 2021.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

I wanted to talk to him about.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

How his show house experiences proved he could make it in a new market, how he navigates the sometimes tricky teamwork of collaborating on a home's design, and why fellow designers should be glad that their client has hired a specialist to tackle the kitchen.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

In both cases. When you put down roots with your business in a community, both in New Jersey and in Palm beach, you opened up a studio space to showcase your work. Why has having that physical representation of your company been so important to you?

[Jim Dove]

It was especially important for. For me moving here because no one knew who I was. Where in New Jersey, I had a small studio with literally a piece of furniture that I designed and had built. Yeah, Here I built out a whole studio, you know, a whole studio concept. And what has happened, People walk in and go, oh, I know who you Are right. Jim dub is what they see, what I do. You know, the room, the designs speak for themselves.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

What did you put in this studio that does all the talking?

[Jim Dove]

Basically, the concept was, to me, I made it a living space. You know, I went back to my roots, a kitchen as a living room.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Dove]

So there's. There's a banquet. There's comfortable wing back chairs at the dining room table. There's a fireplace mantel from Chesney's. There's a beautiful range from the atelier. I designed a breakfast bar, a beautiful hood, a beautiful island, you know, that you could sit. So I created this very joyful living space.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

And people are able to walk in and say, oh, I want to. I want to feel like this at home.

[Jim Dove]

Yes. People coming off the streets, I get hired, they fall in by accident, and they hire me. It's worked out.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Did it feel like starting over, saying, all right, Palm beach is going to be the place where we headquarter this business?

[Jim Dove]

I think going into it, your adrenaline is in it. And now I've been it. It's 2024. I'm just realizing this year, because of your ego and because of your adrenaline, oh, I'm the new guy, and I have to say it's been sort of a wake up call.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

In what way?

[Jim Dove]

I'm meeting the biggest builders in town, the most successful builders in town, and they don't hire me right away. I'm like, what? Because they've been working with people for 20 years, you know, 15, 20 years that they trust, that they know. So I've realized that it takes more than a beautiful studio. It takes more than a great personality and talent and design. It takes time. It takes a while for you to gain their trust. It's been really, really interesting.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

I want to talk about Kips Bay a little bit because I know you've participated several times.

[Jim Dove]

Three times.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

And I've seen you. Yeah, I've seen you credit the show house in a lot of ways with changing the trajectory of your business at sort of key moments. Can you tell me a little bit about each of those three show houses and what they meant for you or what they changed for you in the way you looked at your business?

[Jim Dove]

I did the Champagne Bar in 2019.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

In New York, right?

[Jim Dove]

Yeah. It was 34 inches wide. I think the room was three by five, not even. It was literally three by maybe 42 inches wide by 66 inches long with an eight foot ceiling. It was a closet, but it was a long closet. So you could look into it. And I did really well with it. Jeff Lincoln came down. He's a great interior designer from New York, Long Island. And he came into. Walked into the space, spun around, because that's all you could do is spin around. And he said, wow, I thought you were a hack. This is great. And if you know Jeff, it was a complete compliment, you know, it was the nicest compliment I could have gotten. Vicente Wolf was right next to me. Christopher Peacock was across from me. It exposed me to these really, really, really top notch designers in our country, in our world, and I was part of it. And I was like, wow. And it also gave me. This is. When I came to Palm beach, it exposed me that I can do this, that I can be bigger than Short Hills. Short Hills became small to me. In my mind, you know, I was feeling a little. A little static. So I wanted to expand. And the Palm beach market was absolutely perfect for me at the time. And since then, I have watched, you know, a hundred, literally 100 designers open businesses here.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Yeah, everyone's in Palm Beach.

[Jim Dove]

I was sort of the first that moved from the north to open a business. But the Kips, that Kips Bay opened my eyes to a bigger world. And then I did the Monkey Bar in 2020, 21 with de Gournay, and that was really well received in that.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

House that was in Palm beach, that was like kind of planting the flag in Palm Beach.

[Jim Dove]

Yes, right. That was me. And that year I had a beautiful story in the shiny sheet. Full page front design section, front of the design section, and the back page of the design section as the Palm Beacher, the local Palm Beacher in the show house.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

That's great.

[Jim Dove]

It was amazing. So that was. That was pretty good for my business. People read those. People see that. So it was great exposure.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Well, then you did the whole kitchen this year, I mean, which is where we met in person.

[Jim Dove]

And then I went for it. The house came up, and I approached Nazira, and Nazir, being Nazira, gave me that, I'll see.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Dove]

So I went, okay. And I, you know, sort of went quiet and just let it happen. And then Nazir called me and said, do you want to do it?

[Unnamed Co-Host]

What felt different about this year's house?

[Jim Dove]

Well, it was. It was. I got the kitchen, and I'm a kitchen designer. So this was my opportunity to show off what I really do. You know, financially it was a big risk. And intellectually and in the design world, it was a big risk because it better be good. And I couldn't have been happier. Made People happy. It made everyone happy.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

How do you balance out the design risk? Like the style risk? I mean, because I think you're right that everyone looks at the kitchen of the show house. You remember the kitchen of the show house. You have opinions about the kitchen and the show house. How do you strike that balance? I think so often when I talk to designers about show houses, you're either looking to appeal to a lot of people or you're trying to say, well, this doesn't have to be for everybody, but this is going to be for my people and I'll build the relationships that matter. How did you navigate those two approaches to getting that space right?

[Jim Dove]

I think my approach going into it was architectural. I went into it quietly and architecturally, the room is very clear. It's very simple, it's very organized. And then I went, you know what? I want to please the crowd. I want to please the Palm Beach. Everyone wants to be Palm Beach. Right? Everyone wants to identify with Palm Beach. So I said, I'm going for Palm Beach. And I did, you know, with, with the Gracie wallpaper, with the pink cabinets, you know, with the bold colors, with the high gloss finishes. I didn't, I didn't spare anything. I, I went for it 110% from, you know, from a decorating side.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

The start was, well, I'm going to solve the problems of this room. Or, you know, this is the obvious answer for you.

[Jim Dove]

Yeah. And as a kitchen designer, it has to work because people, you know, it's interesting, John Q. Public, what they can grasp in a kitchen, because everyone has one. Does it work for them? Does it make sense? You know, where's the refrigerator? Where's the. Everyone comes in, they're very excited about how it works. You know, where's the sink? And everyone can imagine themselves in the room. Or if you go into a, you know, a fancy full design living room, you're like, well, this is a little, you know, whatever.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Where do I sit down? Like, can I sit down?

[Jim Dove]

No, I do. But in a kitchen, everyone can imagine themselves at the sink, at the dishwasher, going into the refrigerator, going back to the stove. So everyone. It's interesting watching people.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

The kitchen is also a room where people somehow in show houses feel more comfortable. Like everywhere else. You're kind of not supposed to sit down most of the time.

[Jim Dove]

Yes, yes.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

But I feel like everyone comes over and opens the stove, opens the ranch. They like the refrigerator.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

Yes, sure.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

You can open that if you want.

[Jim Dove]

They do. And in other rooms, it's no touch. But in the kitchen. It's all hands on and it's fun because people really love kitchens. They feel at home.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Is it reasonable to expect that clients come from a show house space?

[Jim Dove]

I've always said the nice thing about doing the kitchen is it's the only one right in the house. I'm the only kitchen designer, so you get really good attention. And I've gotten some solid, direct business from this past show house. And the nice thing about show houses is they last forever. People save these books. When I do my kitchen, I'm going to call him. And they do. They come back five years later. I've been saving your postcard for five years. It's pretty interesting. They keep giving.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Can you tell me how you've approached hiring a team around you to facilitate the work your firm does?

[Jim Dove]

I hate to say something magic, but I think it's trial and error. Yeah. My project manager in New Jersey, Jamie, she had an interior design business in Manhattan for 20 years. She was trained as an architect and she was married to a man that I went to NJIT with in 1985. So we've maintained a friendship. We were personal friends. And she was slowing down in the city, lived in Milburn, Short Hills, and said, jim, I hear you're opening a business. If you need a project manager, let me know. So there's my first project manager. And then the other big link to my business is people that do the drafting work and now more than ever, the renderings. And I have a person, Maribel, who's been with me probably for seven of my 11 years, but she's my fourth one in 11 years. Right. Because people come and go. And then here I've had. I'm on my third project manager, but I think I'm settling into this one. When you have a great employee, it's easy. And when you don't have a good employee, business isn't easy. It's the hardest part of your business. Right? You want your employees happy because it makes everybody happy.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

As your firm started to grow, how did your role in the business change?

[Jim Dove]

I'm doing less clerical, I guess. I'm doing less bookkeeping, I'm doing less invoicing. I'm not, you know, I'm not writing the quotes as much as I used to. I mean, I still do, but yeah, I don't do a lot of things I used to do. I focus on design, I focus on sales, you know, and putting myself out there.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

I want to talk about that a little bit because I think that idea of you Know, designer principle as salesperson is something so many people resist. Right. They don't feel comfortable thinking of themselves selling. They're resistant to that in so many ways. How do you approach it? Or what is your, what is your mindset because you so openly embrace that piece of the job?

[Jim Dove]

You know, we're all in sales and every talented designer I know is a really good salesman. You have to know how to sell yourself to be successful.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Do you mean selling actual product or selling your vision as a product?

[Jim Dove]

My vision?

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Yep.

[Jim Dove]

Yeah. And then the product falls in because if they believe you, they'll believe what you sell. Right. The most important thing is gaining a client's trust and that's through your personality and your knowledge.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

You know, as you've built your business, are you setting parameters around the size of jobs you want to take on? That person who comes in with the $2 million home, is that still an important or interesting project for your business at this point?

[Jim Dove]

Yes, it's called bread and butter. And what I like about those is they keep everyone full speed ahead full time. Where the, the big projects, you know, they don't come in as much as the smaller projects. So I welcome both because, you know, back in the, when I first started, a big kitchen was 40,000, you know, expensive kitchen. Now the least expensive kitchen I do is probably in these two million dollar houses. It's probably 80 to 100,000. That's, that's real money. Right. So there's, and I'm, I'm actually going through a business growth strategy seminar. Not seminar. I, I've hired people to do a growth strategy plan for me and they've been, they've been talking to vendors and employees and clients and contractors and they're coming back with a plan for me next week. And what I'm trying to do is grow my business. I have a super high end cabinet line. Custom, Custom. Custom. And I'm bringing in a lower line, which I've always had until Covid and that company that I had during COVID went out of business. And I haven't had another line. So I'm bringing in a less expensive cabinet line for those $2 million condos because they don't want to spend 150 on the kitchen. No, it's a, it's a 1200 square foot apartment. Right. So you have to be careful. I don't, and I don't want to give away $100,000 job, but I let go this season probably four jobs that would have brought me in $700,000 I was like, what am I doing? Why am I saying no? Because I didn't have the cabinet line to, like.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

To make it work for the client.

[Jim Dove]

To make it work for the client? Yeah, to make it work for the client. Because the thing about my project managers, they're so talented that I do a sketch, and my. And the people that do my drafting, I do a sketch, and they can do it. So it's not. It doesn't take, you know, all of my time. I can. I can move on once I design in my. The way I've set up my company, I'm sort of done. I'm still supervising everyone, of course, and overseeing everything, but they're taking it and running. They're all behind, supporting me.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

How far along? I guess. Where are the client touch points and where does the client see you?

[Jim Dove]

I meet them initially and we give them a proposal. They hire me. I have another meeting to discuss more in depth their desires, their wants in the spaces that we're working on. And then I go away and I design. I turn that over to my drafting people and rendering people. They put together the design with me, the detailed design and the renderings, and then I present those plans and renderings back to the client. I have the meeting with them with my project manager, maybe in the beginning, sitting next to them just to meet them, you know, just to get to know them a little bit. But I'm there until pretty much the cabinetry. Cabinetry goes into fabric until we sign off on the fab for fabrication. And then once. Once the job site starts, the project manager takes over and I'm there as needed. And then the project's installed. I'll show up, walk through, make sure everything's okay. Of course, I'll meet the clients and shop with them for hardware, countertops, lighting, furniture. You know, I'm on the design front, and my team is on the production front. Works very well.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

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[Unnamed Co-Host]

Talk to me about being a kitchen designer. You're working with the architect. There's a design, maybe there's another designer on the project. You're working with the designer, you're working with the client. You're in this very interesting middle of the Venn diagram spot. Designing a room that in, I would argue the last 10, but especially the last five years, has become the room people are most fixated on in their homes. That's a complicated spot to be in.

[Jim Dove]

It's a comp. Yeah, because you are. And you can. And I have to be careful. For example, right now, I'm working on a new job, Martha's Vineyard, fabulous architect, beautiful house. You know, it's new construction, so I have the plans, great client, the client is not happy with. I've worked for her before, worked for the family before. She's not understanding what they're doing with the kitchen. And it's not, it's not a flight to the architect. And there's also a really big. There's designers involved, two designers that are beyond talented, that are also involved, but thankfully, they're not kitchen designers. So in this situation, the architects have handed over the plans and said, here, go. Thank you. You know, here's the AutoCAD design, the kitchen, the decorators design, interior designers are staying out of the picture until I come up with a. A good design that she's happy with. And then they will get engaged to help with color and texture. And so I'll work with them to put together the look of the room, the cabinet style, the. I mean, I'll present all this and they'll come back and edit or add. And I really like, I prefer working with designers because it adds another layer to the room. So it's, It's a definite team. And then there's the contractor, which you work with a little bit later. You know, you get more involved with the contractor at the end. So that's another team member that we're. That we're dealing with. But it is, it's complicated. But when there's a good team, it's. It's easy. But when there's teams that are, that have that one all the control, it's not so easy.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Are people territorial?

[Jim Dove]

Often, yes. And I always push back because I'll say to these people, it's not about you, it's not about me. In the end, it's their home, it's their kitchen. So let's. Let's do the right thing for them instead of fighting amongst ourselves, let's do what they want. And a lot of the times the people want to be in control of everything, especially the architects. So they frown upon, you know, it's just. When I was in architecture school, they called interior designers desecrators. I mean, come on. Yeah, it's just. It's just ar. It's ignorant. It's ignorant. You know, these designers make a lot of these architects look better. If we're all professionals, it's the best project. You know, having a designer, having the architect, having the kitchen designer, you know, having the lighting professional step in, it's fantastic. You know, when they say they're bringing in a lighting designer, I'm like, cool. You know, it's going to light me up better, right? It's. Having all the different fields involved is exciting.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Why is it so essential to hire a kitchen designer who has that specific expertise?

[Jim Dove]

It's base. It has to, it has to function. And a lot of decorators, designers, will design it just to be pretty. I mean, there's some very good interior designers that do kitchens, and then there are others that it's a decorated cabinet. I'm known for my interiors, my cabinet interiors. And I don't think a person that is not completely focused on the kitchen will offer what I can offer as far as the kitchen design and how it functions. And also, I'm an architect, so I have the brain of the architect, but I also have the brain of a technical kitchen designer. And I'm also a designer, so I. I'm a specialist.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Do you have to. You know, there's so much conversation in the industry about charging, hourly charging, a flat fee, charging, however you want to charge, plus cost, plus, plus this, plus that. Does your focus sort of change how you present those numbers to a client? Like, is there an advantage to one approach over the other for you?

[Jim Dove]

This has been a struggle. And I think everyone has the same struggle, especially in the kitchen design industry, of how to charge because there's so much work, you know, designing a kitchen. Designing a kitchen is super technical, but we're doing a ton of work behind the scenes that people don't see. And this is where. This is part of the reason I left architecture as a young guy, because I was trying. I was raising a family and I wasn't making the money that I needed to make So I went into kitchen design because it's sales, it's commission based. Right. Where architecture is not commission based. When you're at the beginning, you're an hourly employee and that's it for a long time. And I didn't have the time to do that. You know, that's backing up to the beginning too. One of the reasons I got out of architecture was I wasn't making enough money to support my family. Yeah, I went into sales. The way kitchen designers price are very different. You know, it's a percentage. It's there. It's like it's everyone else. We're doing the same thing. We're putting percentage on and then I'm charging and I have different percentages for different products. You know, I have different percentages for stone, different percentages for fixtures, different percentages for cabinetry. So everything is on a scale.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Is there a design fee on top of that or is it really truly just product?

[Jim Dove]

Just for me, it's product. Some I charge a very minimal retainer, but other, bigger, they charge big numbers. And I don't, I don't know why I should, but I don't. But I'm expensive. I compete with, you know, I'm. I'm as much as most of them out there.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

This expansion you're thinking of, then, it just, it allows you to take more jobs, say yes to more. Sell more product.

[Jim Dove]

Yes. I'm trying to build. I'm trying to build my clientele. I want to build my clientele base. I want to build my builder, contractor, architect, interior designer base. My. My idea is I want to have business that is feeding me instead of Mr. And Mrs. Jones, Mr. And Mrs. Smith, Mr. And Mrs. You know, one. If just one. One, one, one, one. I want. My goal is to provide a service to builders that keep them coming back. And I think part of it is having different options in different cabinet lights to meet their needs at some point.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

The start of every project right now requires you. Do you have a vision for your business where it expands beyond your sketch, your vision, your ideas at the beginning, or is that still essential to you as part of the experience of working with your brand?

[Jim Dove]

I'm working to find a designer who has my sort of sensitivity to what I do, but as a junior, a junior designer, and it's very difficult for me to do that's part of my plan is to bring in other designers because again, it's sales, you know, these designers and also they have to sell. They just can't sit there. When I first started my My kitchen design business in Aspen, Colorado. I used to go to job sites like get out of my car to contractors. People don't do that.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

They're like, what, I should talk to strangers? Yeah.

[Jim Dove]

When I was in there were other designers were like, wow. But I did very well. I did very well because again, I was the newcomer, you know, in Aspen. And that's what you have to do. You have to put yourself out there and sell yourself.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

What part of running your firm has tested you the most as an entrepreneur?

[Jim Dove]

Banking.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

In what way?

[Jim Dove]

Two things. Cash flow and personalities.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Let's talk about cash flow first.

[Jim Dove]

I have a friend who's almost, he's worth almost a billion dollars. And he started with nothing, literally. He, his parents sold eggs on the side of the road. Literally.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Okay. Yeah.

[Jim Dove]

And he's worth almost a billion dollars. And we were talking, yet we're good friends. And he said, I still worry about money. So the point of that is when you have your own business, it comes with the territory because without me, the business, this business is not moving forward. And your employees care, but they're not moving the business forward. And they're not designed to move the business forward because they're project managers and they're drafts people. Right. They're not out there. I mean they're selling because they're doing a good job, naturally, because they're good. I'll get referrals. Right. So they are doing sales in that way, moving the business forward. But I'm the one that has to make sure that there's money in the bank. You know, it's the age old story. Right. And there's a beauty of having your own business, but then there's that stress that comes with it.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Are there unique cash flow challenges in your business based on when the money comes in?

[Jim Dove]

Yeah, because we, we have very long. So there's much months between payments from a client. So you have to worry about cash flow. And that's why I discovered a savings account that I can't touch to like.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Sleep better at night fund.

[Jim Dove]

Yeah, I don't know the code. Yeah, I don't know the code.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

You said personalities was the other thing that have tested you.

[Jim Dove]

Well then personality is. And this is when you have 25 clients and maybe there's two of them involved in each of those 25. That's now 50 personalities.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

At any one given time.

[Jim Dove]

Yeah, at any one given time. You know, with the phone rings like, you know, it's, it's. And that is a challenge. That, that's where my personality I Have to. I mean, people hire me because they like me, you know? Absolutely. But I have to. I have to breathe and stay calm and let them. You know, listening is so important because everyone has a different approach. Everyone sees the cabinet differently. Everyone sees the process differently. So you have to be very clear and consistent with your approach, that your approach is the same with all 25 clients, so you can be consistent in what you say when they come to you with their newfound complaint. I hear things. I'm like, well, I've never heard that one before. You know, there's always something new, you know, in our business because there's so many parts, there's so many moving pieces that you have to be consistent within yourself about what you're doing and try to stay unemotional, which gets. Which gets challenging. Because part of being a designer is emotional, and part of why we do beautiful work is because we're putting our emotion into it. We're putting ourselves. We're putting ourselves into making beautiful things. I've always called myself a design therapist. You also have to be a therapist in our. In our business. You have to read the person or try to read the person.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

We touched on this a little bit, talking about the, like kind of the many people on a job and how you fit within it. But I want to go back for a second to that idea that the way people think about their kitchen has changed so profoundly in recent years. How does that change the way people show up and what they're asking you for?

[Jim Dove]

Most people want everything in their kitchen. Okay.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

Right.

[Jim Dove]

They want the tv, they want the desk. They want a place to lounge. They want a place to have a drink. You know, they want a bar. They want comfortable seating. They want great lighting. They want art. They want. I'm like, it's a kitchen, you know.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

And an air fryer and every single appliance.

[Jim Dove]

Oh, and then every appliance, which. That's why the. That's why the pantry comes in handy. The big room next to you, next to the kitchen. Yeah. I think the new thing is because it's a living space. Everyone's living in the kitchen, and it has to. Even if they don't cook, they still want all the bells and whistles. And because of social media, Right. Online, you can see so much so quickly, so many cool ideas, and they just go through. I want that, I want that, I want that, I want that. But Your kitchen is 10 by 12. You can't help all that. Right? So that's. That's always a challenge to give people what they want when they really don't have the space, nor do they have the budget for, you know, what, what they have in their minds, that's, that's a big challenge. Kitchen kitchens are expensive. And when I get a first time kitchen person in, I'm like, oh no. Because the education is, it takes a lot to educate people on the process. Especially if you're doing a serious project, it's serious. There's a lot that goes into it and it's more complicated than ever because of technology.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

When you talk to people about function, you know, separate from their million item wish list, aesthetically, what kind of questions are you asking?

[Jim Dove]

Lifestyle tells me more than anything. Like when someone says to me, hi, my husband and I cook and my two boys come over and they love to cook too. And they make a mess in this one. And you know, this one cooks this and that one. So that means there's four cooks in the kitchen or I'm the only cook or I don't cook or my husband cooks and I clean up. So I'm like, okay, where's your husband? Let's talk to him or wife, whatever you need to cook to talk to us, right? Lifestyle toast tells you everything that you need to know about what a person needs in their kitchen.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

How have you changed the way you think about function and making these spaces work?

[Jim Dove]

First, I do the public side of the kitchen and the cooking side of the kitchen. So I separated sort of public space and private space. The private space being the cook space, which, so you're protecting yourself from the people that are in your kitchen that aren't doing anything. And then what I do from that is I do the prep space, the cook space, the cleanup space, instead of the triangle. More of a functional layout. That makes sense because when you're prepping is different than cooking. So the triangle isn't really, you know, you really want your sink closer to the refrigerator. That's what you're going to be washing and the, the stove, you know, and then other like a freezer doesn't even have to be in the kitchen for the amount of time you need an ice maker close by, but the amount of times you go into a freezer, you can move that into another room almost. So, you know, appliances have changed to the. Because appliances have become so fantastic. The drawers have changed the way we design the way we use kitchens. These sinks have changed the way we use kitchens. You know, it's, it's great. So many things have, have added to the complexity of kitchen design in a good Way in a more functional way. Yeah. That's why the triangle. The triangle is not even a. These huge kitchens you have to do. I. I do them by zones versus the triangle.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

What makes you say yes to something today? What kind of job are you most excited about?

[Jim Dove]

I'm most excited about jobs that I can be my most creative. I love a good renovation. I love a gut of a great house that they're going and reconfiguring. I like using. I like using my architectural experience. There's a house we did here in Palm beach that we've. The back of the house had the laundry room, the powder room, and the mud room. And I flipped it and put the kitchen on the back and put the. The laundry room, the powder room, and the mud room. Not really a mud room, but a bar in the middle of the house where the light wasn't needed. And that was just. It was a home run, you know, and they. Because I, I've. I like projects that are going to really change the way people, you know, it's exciting. Creative process excites me the most. And I'd like to say, you know, the million dollar cabinet job is pretty good too.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

That goes right into my next question. Maybe what does success look like for you today?

[Jim Dove]

You know, what I'm doing right now, I think because I'm so competitive, that I feel successful, but I think I can be more successful. You know, we all beat ourselves up and I'm like, oh, I haven't done anything in my life. And then people remind me of my, oh, you've done pretty. You've done okay. You've done things right. It's just. I don't think I've done anything, so. But that's, I think, a good thing. I think that's what makes us good.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

It makes you. You're always looking for the next thing.

[Jim Dove]

Yeah. Looking to improve and looking to be better and looking to do it better and looking to make people make clients, you know, happier. Right. More content with what we've done for them.

[Unnamed Co-Host]

That doesn't get better than that.

[Jim Dove]

No, I don't think so. I think it's. I think it's good. Yeah. So I'm excited about. I get bored, so I need to keep trying to improve. Right. Instead of doing the same old, same old. Like when I was doing the show, I said I could be in the show house, then go to clients and then go to my office and then go to clients and then go to job sites. The busier I am, the happier I am. Because if you're moving, that means there's, you know, for every action there's a reaction. You know, I think that's, that's super important that you have to keep creating action.

[Kaitlyn Peterson]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Before you go, if you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, more great podcasts, check out new products or browse job openings. Head on over to businessofhome.com if you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email [e-mail] finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson with Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you again in two weeks.