← Trade Tales
Trade Tales
Leann Conquer on why there is more than one way to build a budget
00:50:50
Leann Conquer on why she sees their entire discovery phase as a test run—and a sales process—before the job truly commences; why the firm has developed not one, but two tried-and-true approaches to building a budget; and the importance of shifting the way the firm communicates depending on a client’s personality type.
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- [00:02]
Leanne Conger
This idea of customer service and going above and beyond does not require this seismic shift in what you're doing day to day. It just requires this mental shift towards thinking ahead or thinking beyond what's right in front of you.
- [00:23]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season six of the show where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea, or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer who's celebrating her firm's 10th anniversary with some big wins and industry recognition, but also with a fresh perspective on how to evolve in the years to come. With operational excellence top of mind, she's focused on refining the firm's systems while protecting space for creative pursuits. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is sponsored by Universal Furniture. Universal has another incredible lineup designer focused speakers panels and seminars this fall at High Point Market. Don't miss your chance to hear from top industry experts like Melissa Gault, Gail Dobie and Jenna Christiansen. Space is limited, so be sure to save your seat when registration opens on September 18th at universalfurniture.com marketevents plus visit the Universal Showroom during market to experience the brand's fall introductions at 101 S. Hamilton St. This podcast is also sponsored by the Shade Store. The Shade Store offers designers everywhere a simplified resource for premium handcrafted custom window treatments with a team of dedicated design consultants available to guide you through the material and product selection process, measure and install professionals to ensure the perfect fit and more than 150 showrooms nationwide. The Shade Store offers the bespoke customization of a high end workroom backed by the support of a national organization. Let the Shade Store take care of the window treatments for you. Sign up for a trade account today@theshadestore.com Trade.
- [02:48]
Leanne Conger
I grew up in a very small town, Pennsylvania and at first I thought I wanted to be an architect. My mom as a teacher she taught AutoCAD to high schoolers at my high school. So I was really drawn to the technical side of drafting and thought okay, this is I could just nerd out in front of a computer drafting doing isometrics forever. I'll go into the architecture track, and then felt this pull to the interior side of things and went to school and studied interior design and knew from an early age that I wanted to experience something different, something bigger.
- [03:31]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Leanne Conger. That desire for something more culminated in a move to New York, where she started working for a design firm. Then her boyfriend got a job in San Francisco. Leanne decided to take a leap of faith.
- [03:45]
Leanne Conger
With no job and no career lined up, I just said, let me hit pause for a second. I'm a couple years out of school. I can pretty much do anything. At least that was the mindset. And then I started to work at a furniture manufacturer here in San Francisco. It was a small company. It was myself and the owner, and we did it together. It was the production side of the interior design world. And we worked with commercial interior designers and residential interior designers at a time in San Francisco where the tech offices were booming. So Instagram, Dropbox, and we did furniture for these companies. And I got to meet and interact with interior designers that are now my peers and friends. And I didn't know what I was doing truthfully at the time, looking back, but we figured it out, and that. That is so exciting to me.
- [04:43]
Caitlin Peterson
At about the same time, fellow designer Alexis Tompkins was also relocating to San Francisco. Crossing paths would put both of their careers on an entirely new trajectory.
- [04:55]
Leanne Conger
We both moved to San Francisco within a couple months of each other. She had a very similar story. Her husband got a job offer at the same company my husband did. And I met her husband Ian first. And talking to him about what I'm doing, I just moved to San Francisco. You know, I'm an interior designer. I'm working at this furniture manufacturer right now. She's like, okay, you need to meet my wife. She's also an interior designer. So we met up at a dive bar and had drinks and chatted, and that started our friendship. And Alexis, in the way she speaks about her passion towards art and furniture and the home, is so compelling that from day one, I thought to myself, sign me up. How can I help you do this? And after a few years, it was time to do it. We jumped ship of our current positions and started Chroma.
- [05:47]
Caitlin Peterson
In 2014, Leanne and Alexis officially launched their firm. I wanted to talk to Leanne about why she sees their entire discovery phase as a test run and a sales process before a job truly commences. We also talked about the importance of shifting the way the firm communicates depending on a client's personality type and why Chroma has developed not one, but two tried and true approaches to building a budget.
- [06:17]
Alexis Tompkins
What did you set out to accomplish in the beginning? You know, when you came together and you said, all right, we're gonna take the sleep of faith, we're gonna start a business together, what did you want to create?
- [06:29]
Leanne Conger
An opportunity to say something a bit different than what at the time and maybe even still to this date that we see in Northern California, in San Francisco. Our work shows a broad range of this creativity and pulling from the landscape and culture and what's around us to. To help create something really unique and in doing so, create a brand and a lasting mark on. On the city and the design here and then hopefully beyond.
- [07:04]
Alexis Tompkins
How do you start when your dreams are that big, but you need the first job, you need the first client, you need the first website. What did that look like in the beginning?
- [07:15]
Leanne Conger
In the beginning, you don't know what you're doing. So you have these rose colored lenses that you have an idea of the first steps and rely on mentors and friends and your intuition and you just go one step after another and you try things and you fail and they don't work and, and you reflect and you try something else. And I think the key is that you just keep going. And something that Alexis and I have, which I'm very grateful for, is our partnership. And we both bring to the table something very different. Mind being the operations and really loving and the passion for the how and Alexis for the what. So as we go in the early days, just tons of scouring of projects and magazines and building a relationship with those people. And in the early days, it was looking back and we didn't know this at the time, it was all about those connections and those relationships with architects, with general contractors, with other interior designers, with vendors and who do our clients work with? We want to connect with those people and we want to hear what they have to say. And if we can give back as well, then that symbiotic relationship is really important for the growth. And that's what fueled us in the early days.
- [08:51]
Alexis Tompkins
Where did the first client come from?
- [08:53]
Leanne Conger
There were a lot of first clients and we did everything okay. We did. Anything that walks through the door, we did. And it was really probably year two or three where we focused on residential. In the early days, we were doing a lot of commercial or office spaces as well. And the first client came through, we were interviewing and we totally bombed the interview. Just totally bombed it. Not a good interview. We prepped so hard for it too. Oh my Gosh, I think we probably prepped too hard and we got nervous and just totally bombed it. We weren't focused on listening to them. We're just kind of talking about ourselves. However, we did put together a very visually compelling proposal. So while personalities maybe weren't a great match, they could tell that we had a lot of passion. And they referred us to a friend of theirs who said, okay, you're not quite our fit and style, but we think you would be a perfect fit for this other our friends of ours. And to this day, they're dear friends and clients still. And for that I'm really grateful. And that project was in Architectural Digest and that really kind of set us on the trajectory that we are today.
- [10:14]
Alexis Tompkins
For you and Alexis, how did you find a comfortable cadence working together? I know you've described yourself on your site as sort of the yin and the yang of the firm, but was it clear from the beginning how you were going to settle into roles and responsibilities?
- [10:30]
Leanne Conger
So in early days I mentioned we just did everything together and that was, that was a lot of learning and comfort knowing that we had each other back up ideas off of backup. Totally. And as the years went on, we start to trust ourselves more. There was always trust between our partnership and each other. And I think because we did everything together in the early days, we didn't trust ourselves enough to split the responsibilities or to do things on our own. And that naturally took a lot of time and just learning, doing the crash and burn experiences of, oh my gosh, we just totally bombed that, or we designed something and it looks bad, or we are building a team and we're not building it in the right way, or that wasn't the right thing to say or communication. So through those experiences of really just trusting your intuition and then starting to trust yourself more then you, we take little baby steps into separating our responsibilities. And from there, because we had talked about it so much together, it was quite obvious what fulfilled us and what our passions were. And we were able to divide the company and the roles so that Alexis could really focus on the creative direction of the firm and our work and the brand. And that I could help with the building of the infrastructure and taking this initial brand idea and really harnessing it and getting it out into the world.
- [12:10]
Alexis Tompkins
How did you start hiring? How did you start to build a team around you as your business grew and evolved?
- [12:17]
Leanne Conger
That's a lot of word of mouth. And you just start organically finding folks that are a great fit and we're so appreciative of the team members that were our core team of setting us out on our first design steps to a few transitions. Throughout the last 10 years, I feel like we've had two or three large business transitions where there's been team changes and then also a growing up period for Alexis and myself and the company. We like to say that there are five business buckets for a well rounded company. We have your team, team growth, there is finance, there is marketing, there is sales and then there's your service offering. And you can't focus on all five of those business buckets at any given time. It's too much. You can't do it. You can't divide your brain into that many parts. So if we're focusing on marketing and sales because we need to grow our pipeline or we need to get new work in, we know that if we focus on that for one or two months, we're going to have to shift gears over to our services and our team growth. And then we start hiring and building our team, making sure that our service offering is up to date. Do we need to improve any process or documentation how we're forecasting and training people? And it just kind of goes, keeps going around and around and around. And it's really important for us to be as transparent as possible with our team of how to do that. This is what makes a business. It's not just about coming in and designing, but we're running a small business that everyone should have a hand in understanding of how the business works and operates. And I think that transparency has afforded us an opportunity to work with some really great people.
- [14:13]
Caitlin Peterson
What does it require of you to.
- [14:15]
Alexis Tompkins
Be that transparent about how the business works?
- [14:18]
Leanne Conger
It's hard. It's hard. Yeah. And there's a fine line with anything of going in too deep yet having an understanding or having this open relationship or this open dialogue of here's how we're doing financially and this is what we're focusing on now and folding everyone into the goals of the company. And it's helpful to start big picture. You don't need to go into the fine tuned details of how we're auditing our process. It is helpful to sit down with their team once a month or whatever, cadence feels good and share what's going on in the business. These are our goals, These are the goals that we're meeting. These are the goals that we're not meeting. How can we do it together? There is a process of buy in that we talk a lot about Alexis and myself, that if you have an Idea and you're trying to do change and change management is hard. We have to get folks excited about where we're going and how we need to get there. Requires everyone's buy in. So there's a large conversation around what's in it for them, how is this change going to benefit them.
- [15:36]
Alexis Tompkins
You mentioned that there have been these sort of transitional moments or kind of leveling up moments for the firm. Can you talk me through how you in retrospect see those different phases? Phases of evolution?
- [15:49]
Leanne Conger
Yeah, I feel like there's been three. There's 2014. We decided to create our LLC. Okay, we're officially open for business, but we look at each other and say, how do we get work? What, what is sales, what is marketing? Okay, we're really starting from scratch here. And I'd say, yeah, two to three years in, there is a shift towards, okay, if we are going to work within the residential world, we need to only focus on getting that type of work. That was the first big change. And if that means that we are running really lean, that means that we are running really lean to do that. And then I'd say there was another one around year six where we knew how to provide a service and what we needed to do. We had then accomplished a few project cycles. So we understood then how to change and become more efficient with our process and how to provide a service offering, how to really go above and beyond in being a service provider. How we should be billing, how we should be selling, how we should be marketing ourselves. And I think in year six we really ramped up our marketing efforts and through this big marketing engagement push, we went out and searched for a branding firm and redid our website. And because we don't have a robust portfolio of work, because we were being really choosy, we need another way to tell our story of who we are as creatives and who we are as owners of the business and what we're trying to do and say. So we doubled down on the idea that if we didn't have 12 projects but we only had four, how else can we show our potential clients and the industry and folks who are interested who we are? And that looked like the website development, that looked like our social media development. Emails, one on one meetings, print mailers, really going above and beyond and hitting it hard on the marketing and brand development.
- [18:11]
Alexis Tompkins
Did you feel the difference from those things right away or how long does it take before you start to see that return on investment?
- [18:21]
Leanne Conger
The return leads us to this third business transition which is happening now, and it's really exciting. We're starting to see opportunities in publications open up. Alexis just had her home published in Architectural Digest in the September issue alongside some serious mentors and fans of our own, Pamela Shamsheri and Athena Calderon. Miranda Brooks, Aurora James. It was seriously such a compelling and exciting issue to be in. And to see Alexis and her family in the pages of Architectural digest in our 10th year is. We're just so delayed, thrilled. And that brings us to our next growing up period. I feel like, okay, we're in it for 10 years. We have seen the efforts of the last four years of marketing and brand development really come to fruition. So I'd say three or four years. Then at that point, what's the next.
- [19:27]
Alexis Tompkins
Kind of way that you see the firm leveling up or changing and evolving?
- [19:31]
Leanne Conger
Alexis and I, we both are moms. She just had her second baby three weeks ago.
- [19:38]
Alexis Tompkins
That's why she's not here.
- [19:40]
Leanne Conger
That's why she's not here. She has a three year old. I have a two year old. And I'm so excited to have all this experience under our belt to really be super focused on what's important now because we do have families and we are mothers and there is this part of our lives that hold our attention and it requires some ultra focused work on our part. We bought a building in San Francisco a couple years ago, and we have plans to create a gallery space. And I think there's this effort of fine tuning what we love within the interior design world, which is product and which is building furniture and building textiles and creating home environments through art consulting and really perfecting it. It's like we've casted a wide range of what we could do and we found this sweet spot and now it's about perfecting it for us. And not reinvent the wheel at this moment, but really focus in on what we know and what we know we can do foreign.
- [21:00]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [21:31]
Alexis Tompkins
I want to talk about your team. How have you approached hiring and how have you approached creating pathways for growth for people once you hire them?
- [21:42]
Leanne Conger
The approach to hiring looks different depending on the season that we're in and the need. And once we have onboarded that new team member, the trajectory of growth looks like a open conversation about their strengths and areas of improvement and setting a cadence of having an open dialogue about that. And for us, a big part of Alexis and our relationship and partnership has been supported through professional coaches. And we've had a cycle of a handful that were really focused on certain periods of the business. So in the early days we were working with a professional coach purely just on how to present yourself in interviews and out into the world and communication and how to speak with authority and with intention. And then we've had professional coaches who are about business development or marketing. And then we've had professional coaches who are, who are focused on interpersonal growth and growth mindset and goal setting. And that's where we're at right now. And we're working with this wonderful woman who we've worked with for a couple years. And we give an opportunity for each one of our team members to work directly with this professional coach as well. So there's this radical candor idea that you can speak honestly and truthfully about what you need if you bring kindness to it. And so we talk a lot about that and we're able to build this level of respectful transparency where ultimately we all want to do a good job. We're all perfectionists at the end of the day. We, we want to be, we want to do our best and sometimes we can't bring our best and that's fine, that's okay. So beyond the skill of the mentorship around designing, there's this fuel that is necessary around growth in your interpersonal relationship, professional relationship with everyone that really impacts the culture and the vibe in the studio day to day.
- [24:08]
Alexis Tompkins
Can you tell me about how you've organized everybody or kind of the roles and responsibilities or the zones of responsibilities of those team members?
- [24:16]
Leanne Conger
We have team leads. So we have senior folks, senior in the industry come in and be team leads. They are the day to day client relationship liaison. And then we have a wonderful team of designers who support in strengths along the way from technical illustration to drafting to sourcing, custom furniture creation, illustrating, and a mix of everyone depending on the project size and scale. We staff that project accordingly based on what the budget is and what the client scope is and what we need. We work with some wonderful consultants that ebb and flow as the project needs, ramp up and ramp down. And Alexis and I are on every project in different capacities at different phases. I'm heavily involved from the Initial. Hello. We're interested in working with you to engagement to the first design phase, which we call Discover. It's very similar to any sort of discovery phase where you're learning about the project, you're learning about the client, you start to hone in on, on what that budget is, what the scope actually entails. We say even though we sign the engagement letter and we get technically going in the design process, we don't win the job until we complete this first phase. Because that's when you really start to talk about numbers in a real way. And you've had a couple meetings to both look at concepts and imagery and style understanding and how much are you really invested into this process, both mentally and financially. And so this is a really good test for us on both sides. It's got to be a good fit and feel that we're in the sales process through, even after engagement until we're through this first phase. And then from there Alexis really starts to take over and is highly engaged and involved through the remainder of the project. And I kind of step behind the scenes and jump in at key milestone meetings. And I'm really helping to make sure that the project and everything that we're doing is operating appropriately and efficiently. And Alexis really then takes over as the design director role and she's in most client meetings with the team lead. So that has been years of trying to figure it out. Truthfully, I feel like you asked me again, maybe in five it'll be different. But that's been our sweet spot for the last couple years of how Alexis and I are involved in all the projects.
- [27:08]
Alexis Tompkins
How many team members are touching a given project?
- [27:11]
Leanne Conger
It depends on the size. And we'll use a, maybe a standard or kind of medium sized project, which is be like a single family home in the Bay area. Maybe it's 3 to 5,000 square feet. They're doing some interior architecture, kitchen and bathroom renovation ideas and furniture. It'd be three. Three people? Yeah. So it'd be Alexis, team lead, and likely a project designer, design assistant. And there might be a consultant that jumps on to help with the architectural illustration through any renovation. And then it ebbs and flows from there. We've had projects where we've needed to staff up to six people per project, down to maybe it's just a team lead and a design assistant part time. So it depends.
- [28:02]
Alexis Tompkins
Is there a ceiling to how big you imagine growing the team?
- [28:06]
Leanne Conger
We'd like to think that there's of course, never a limitation. I do feel like a small or Intimate team is just more appropriate to where we're at currently. Having a smaller, leaner team allows us to ensure that everyone is at baseline and really moving forward with the work and progressing in their learning around creativity and drafting and drawing and researching at the same pace. And when we start to grow, that means that there's a lot of work to do. And there. And there needs to be. There needs to be more revenue, of course, to make sure our margins are healthy. And a bigger team means that there's just a lot of sales effort. There's. There has to be a lot of inbound leads. And the last couple years with. For us, and we've talked to other folks in the industry, it's shifted. There's less of a drinking from a fire hydrant type of mentality with projects. It's consolidated a bit and there needs to be more focus and intentionality on growth. So at the moment, it's hard to imagine scaling up double or triple our size just because the sales effort that it would need to take is more than what we want to give at the moment or that I think is available at the moment.
- [29:33]
Alexis Tompkins
How many are you right now?
- [29:35]
Leanne Conger
Including our wonderful consultants that pop in were 15. So it's modest, it's small. I mean, I know for the design industry, a lot of firms operate in this capacity. And the number of our team does not equate success in our mind. The goal, looking back and just remembering all the sessions of writing goals and doing that, there's never been, I mean, maybe a couple times we talked about team size, but it's mainly been team fit or who do we need? Do we need project managers or do we need more senior designers? Do we need more specialists or do we need more generalists? That's been the conversation, and I think that's an important thing and to not get caught up on the team size, because you can move mountains in this industry with a very small, robust team.
- [30:29]
Alexis Tompkins
Where did you land on that specialist versus generalist question?
- [30:33]
Leanne Conger
Get back to me on that. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm open.
- [30:43]
Alexis Tompkins
That's great. I want to pivot a little bit. One thing I was really excited to talk to you about was this notion that I think you have of sort of operational excellence, of fine tuning systems, of building processes, and also of doing that with the client experience in mind. Can you talk to me about, I mean, really building that from scratch, where you started and how you think about that.
- [31:11]
Leanne Conger
Today I had this interesting college job and I had this. I had these second jobs which were in customer service as a receptionist and went through this phone training through the Disney program. Still really impactful because I talk about it and I think about it to this day, which is hilarious that you anticipate the needs before their needs. And this idea of customer service and going above and beyond does not require this seismic shift in what you're doing day to day. It just requires this mental shift towards thinking ahead or thinking beyond what's right in front of you. And so much of what we do is the day to day, like I need to call this vendor, I need to check on the production of this and I need to do that. This. There's a lot of two foot view of how to progress the project forward and then there's. It's really important to step outside of that and look at the larger view of okay, where's my client at right now? What's going on in their world? How do I meet their needs? What type of personality are they? Are they an amiable, Are they a driver? Are they an expressive, Are they an analytic? What is their core need? And then how can I meet that through my normal communication, just by fine tuning what I'm saying or how I'm saying it. And this idea that if you're meeting the client where they're at, they're able to get you what you need in response to it. And it's really important. It goes a long, long way. There is just micro adjustments into helping them and helping us through the process. And what we do is so personal. We're working in homes and it's a large investment for them. It's very time consuming. They usually have a full time job or a family that they're, you know as their job. And this inherently is a busy and stressful process for them, especially if they're renovating or building a home from scratch. So as much as we can do to meet them where they're at and to help them through the, through the process with our communication, the better.
- [33:47]
Alexis Tompkins
Can you give me an example of a change you might make or how you might shift the way you present something for someone's personality type? I feel like so often the advice I hear from designers is like, don't change your process for the client. Right? Your process is sacred. This is what it takes for you to successfully execute a job. And I think what you're saying is it's actually just that you change how you talk about the process.
- [34:13]
Leanne Conger
So if we are working with an expressive, we are not starting the meeting talking about budget and timeline. We're going to start by showing them this insane idea that we have. Okay. And get them really jazzed about it. And then we'll likely add the meeting in high level budget conversations and then share with them and ask them a question. Would you like to go into detail now or do you want to digest this and come back around? If we're working with a driver, we're going to start with this is what we're talking about today. We have about an hour set aside. These are our talking points. We're going to jump into all things creative and then we're going to end talking about our budget and timeline and where we're at. If we are talking to an analytic, we're going to start with how we're going to move through the process with them and allow them times and breaks to answer questions. So we could say we've taken our first pass at doing creative sketches. They're going to be loose, so some ideas might be more fully formed and others not as you see them. Interrupt us and ask as many questions as you want. If we're working with an amiable, we're going to say, you mentioned that you were really wanting to involve so and so in this process or you really liked this artist. I just wanted to let you know that we've talked to them and they're really excited about this idea and we have some of their ideas in here. And also we've invited the general contractor because we know that there are some key things that we want to talk about together. So we're still having a design meeting and we're still talking about concepts and we're still talking about budget and we're still talking about timeline, but we're just adding in these different areas that we know will be really helpful for them so that they don't get stuck in the meeting being disoriented, being annoyed, being whatever, or just having this feeling of like, oh, this is hard. Why is this hard? Okay, now they're not actually in a space to give us the feedback that we need.
- [36:28]
Alexis Tompkins
How many projects do you typically have going on at the same time?
- [36:32]
Leanne Conger
Anywhere from 12 to 15. And those also include our small ongoing projects or if we're working with a client on helping them with their next round of art collecting or sourcing fine tuned touches with the home to the larger scale projects. Active listening goes such a long way. If someone is telling you something, repeating it back to them in a thoughtful way. Okay, I heard what you said. Is this, I totally understand. This is what we're doing for you? We don't have a solution yet, but we're working towards it. Or we do have a solution and here are the two options. Which option would you like? I think it's really powerful and diffuses a lot of situations when you feel hurt.
- [37:24]
Caitlin Peterson
This podcast is sponsored by Universal Furniture Experience Universal's new introductions at High Point Market this fall, all beautifully displayed in the brand's 115,000 square foot showroom. While you're there, you can visit the Designers Lounge for hair touch ups at the Beauty Bar, craft cocktails and a great series of special events. Sign up online for sessions and seminars@universalfurniture.com marketevents and make sure to visit the showroom October 24th to 30th at 101 S Hamilton St.
- [38:02]
Alexis Tompkins
Can we also talk about money? Because I feel like that's really parallel to this conversation. I mean, because I think those probably are some of the harder conversations. But how are you helping clients through kind of the billing journey, just of understanding what design costs, understanding the level of investment required and kind of staying the course?
- [38:24]
Leanne Conger
We talk about it from the very beginning and I just ask out the gate, could you share more about your budget goal? And there are always two answers, I have no idea. Or a number, which is great. If they say a number, it immediately either rules in or rules out the project as viable.
- [38:48]
Alexis Tompkins
Right.
- [38:49]
Leanne Conger
If it's a number, where it's a little low. But you have done some research. Okay, I think maybe let's just engage for the first phase, which is, you know, just call it 20 to $40,000 within like the first phase or something depending on the size of the project, to see what the project could be. It's kind of, it's kind of like when folks engage in a contractor with preconstruction, you engage for set amount to figure out if the project is viable. The folks that say I have no clue, there needs to be a next level of conversation. If you know the house or the property listing and you kind of know how much they've already invested in the home, there's a sense that you can then further the conversation and then in the proposal start to give some budget ranges, like what's your comfort zone? Are we talking X amount to X amount? Let's call it 100,000 to 250, 250 to 5, 5 to a million million above. And they're going to have a reaction. There is always a reaction to that. And from there having their feedback on that gives you the course of action, how to Approach a project. Okay, we have two different ways. Let's say if they really just don't have a clue what they want to spend, we ask them, do you want to sit with a number that you feel like is a. Not to exceed like, anything more than that feels uncomfortable. And then we can build a scope to that. Or do you want us to hear what you have to say, talk about the spaces you want to do and the ideas that you have and build a budget blindly kind of line by line and just see where it lands. And then you have an opportunity to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, no way, or okay, that feels good. So there's usually these two tracks. It's either build it to a number or build it line by line and see where it lands.
- [40:43]
Alexis Tompkins
As you've grown the business, is it harder to say yes to those, like, smaller budget from a profit or from, you know, kind of a financial health standpoint?
- [40:52]
Leanne Conger
The small projects are important for us. They as a small firm, and I think a lot of folks think in this way too, that if you're always whale hunting for the big projects, that means that there are going to be periods where there are. You don't have big projects and the small projects are really important. You might be in a project cycle where you're ending three large projects and projects are starting again until the fall. And these small projects are what carries your team through. And I think that's what's a constant conversation between Alexis and myself is the smaller, leaner you are, kind of the more volatile your project cycles are because you're not able to take on more work.
- [41:38]
Caitlin Peterson
Right.
- [41:39]
Alexis Tompkins
There's not always like seven big jobs happening.
- [41:41]
Leanne Conger
Exactly, exactly. Because if you have seven large jobs, you need to have a team that can fulfill those seven simultaneous jobs. Just depends on what you're. How you're wanting to build your firm and what you're looking for.
- [41:56]
Alexis Tompkins
Can you tell me a little bit about how you've approached the fees for the firm's work? How you. You know, we talk a lot about billing strategy and charging methodology. Where have you landed for Chroma?
- [42:08]
Leanne Conger
In the beginning, we decided to do only service time and not material as a way to get into the market and learned that there's a reason why there's a margin on furniture and that is to be less stressed financially. Of course, there's a ceiling to however many people you have. That's as much as you can, you can bill to your client. And there's this really interesting idea within the design industry that. And something that truthfully I battle with which is you're much more than a designer. Are you a personality? Are you investing in your marketing firm? Sometimes. And that takes a really large investment and it goes beyond just the service offering. If you're just a service provider and you're. You have, you know, small expenditures, then you can do that. And, and there's a reason why there's a trade and there's a reason why we get trade pricing. And it is marketable to have a margin on our furniture with our hourly rates. So it's time and material and knowing that allows our firm flexibility to invest in other creative projects, which is an important part of our goals. That may not be the case for every design firm, but I think for us it was an important shift.
- [43:41]
Alexis Tompkins
How long ago was that?
- [43:43]
Leanne Conger
It was a few years in. It was sort of like during that first business transition.
- [43:46]
Alexis Tompkins
Has that held steady then at that hourly plus markup, I guess model since then?
- [43:52]
Leanne Conger
Okay, it has. And there are certain times where we negotiate depending on the relationship and the client. We've tried not to exceed. They don't work well for us. I think when you are working with so many different people that are truly outside of your control, it is hard to put a number of hours that it'll take to get something highly creative done. We do our best, we do our best to forecast and to once we have the budget conversation say okay, great, this is what our furniture budget is and this is, this is where we feel like in compared to that furniture budget our design fees are going to be and let's even break that that down further and say if it's a 24 month project, this is what you're going to see each month from us. And we'll let you know if we go, you know, as scope changes, if that's going to go above that. So we get pretty detailed into the idea of projection. But we do need to draw a line and we've had to draw that line. That that doesn't mean it is not. That's not a fixed fee. That's for our estimating purposes and for your planning purposes.
- [45:04]
Alexis Tompkins
Has the complexity of the or how have you adapted to the complexity of the business changing the more customers work you do?
- [45:12]
Leanne Conger
We do a lot of custom. So there has needed to be a shift and we're constantly talking about this idea of now we have an approach to certain custom pieces that we like and that are important for our brand to have through lines and we have a large archive of details. Here's a sofa arm detail that we really love. Here is a chair leg detail that we really love, and we're able to take that as a base model and build from it so that we're not reinventing the wheel each time. And depending on the client and their aptitude and what they're interested in, we could have a client that has a more modest budget and still wants to, so to speak, have our chroma voice. And so we can pull from this archive that we've already developed and it's already tried and true of this custom detail that we've done, and then get to, you know, apply their fabric and their texture and style to it to clients who truly just want something that we've never done before and have this crazy idea that they want something built in their home, and we're totally there for that, and they're there, and the client understands the level of time and investment that's required. So there's this delicate line between doing everything custom to having it be special and be unique to who we are and to the client. But pulling from this archive of an idea, so to speak.
- [46:48]
Alexis Tompkins
You mentioned this idea of at some point prioritizing having that through line in your work as a firm. What does that mean to you and how do you talk about that internally and also with clients?
- [47:02]
Leanne Conger
I think this idea of this archive is an important aspect of that, and we've been talking about it for a couple years. And to do it is hard to go back and look at all the ideas that you've had, the ideas that were successful, weed out the ideas that were not as successful, and then combining it in a way that's useful is challenging. That's a big project. But I do think it's critical for us because the work we're doing could look so different from project to project that there are these certain aspects that come through that starts to be identified as our style, and that's important, so that doesn't look chaotic. We also know that for us, it's really interesting to have such a diverse area of work and that we can work in a lot of different realms of eras and periods of time and architecture styles. And truthfully, that's just because that's our passion. That's what we love to do. I think it's. There's something really beautiful and unique about doing a style that is a style, and that is what you do, and you really focus in on that one type of look and feel, and then there is a focus on how to get there and what you do and pulling from fashion details and architecture and vintage lighting and custom furniture. And it's the pieces that are pulled together that are the same for us. And how it comes through, whether it's a modern home or something built in the turn of the century, is going to look very different. But the formula in which we got there is the same.
- [48:53]
Alexis Tompkins
What does success mean for you?
- [48:56]
Leanne Conger
I think at one point success meant winning big jobs and then at another point it meant buying this building so that we could play and explore and have our own space to dream and to build gallery or to manufacture our creativity, to making sure that Alexis and I are fulfilled within our roles. That was successful. Or that's what success meant to us at one point of really defining our roles and once we define them, feeling very accomplished around that. As you grow and as you succeed in your goals, you move on to your next set and you feel proud and you take time for that and then you're ready to go after something else. I think success means that we have an opportunity to keep going and to keep growing.
- [50:01]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Before you go, if you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, more great podcasts, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com if you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share. I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@tradetalesusinessofhome.com finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others to discover the show. Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson with Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you again in two weeks.