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Trade Tales
Swati Goorha on the power of storytelling in design
00:55:37
Swati Goorha on why she doesn’t conduct discovery calls, how she set herself up to work on higher quality projects, and the billing adjustment that made clients more respectful of her time.
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- [00:03]
Swati Gura
I think it's not just the object or the creativity that went into the object, it's the story that supports that creativity. And people don't just buy objects, people buy stories.
- [00:18]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season six of the show, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a business design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea, or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough and entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guest today is a designer who made a splash at the recent Kips Bay Show House in New York for telling the story of her own growth through her design. That approach was way more than a one off, it's a strategy that underpins many aspects of her firm. She tells me how she's using storytelling for everything from Project Flow to getting clients on board with the design concept. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsors. This podcast is sponsored by Regina Andrew. Born and raised in South Detroit, the brand's roots run deep in the city it calls home. Known as the Paris of the Midwest, the city's style and character have shaped who the brand is, what it makes, and how it makes it. Regina Andrews Pursuit for Inspiration has taken the company across the world to deliver the materials and forms that drive its designs. Crafted with a passionate attention to detail and a quest to deliver the unexpected, Regina Andrews products much like the journey that inspired them, each have a story. Take 15% off your next purchase by using the code TRADETALES15 at checkout now through December 31st. And don't forget to visit Regina Andrew this month at High Point Market or anytime@reginaandrew.com Room and board is a trusted resource for furnishing homes with modern artisan crafted furniture and decor. Now, businesses and industry professionals are also turning to them to help furnish offices, hotels, lounges, multifamily housing and other commercial spaces. When you work with Room and Board for business, you get access to exclusive services like 5 or 10 year product warranties, customized delivery solutions and so much more. Visit roomandboard.com business for ideas and inspiration for your next project and to learn more.
- [02:59]
Swati Gura
I have a very circuitous way of getting to design design. I was born in India and I grew up there. Chemistry and math and technical degrees were the Only way to go. So I have an undergraduate degree in chemistry, and I have another master's in advertising and marketing. I got married, and I moved in with my husband. He was at Cornell at that time, studying, and that's where we had our son in Ithaca. And I actually started to go to the architecture school and the photography school because I knew I wanted to do something creative at this point in my life. Like, now I have this opportunity to pivot, and the whole world is open to me. So after much research and thought process, I decided that design would be my career.
- [03:45]
Unknown
That's Swati Gura.
- [03:47]
Caitlin Peterson
She went on to earn her master's in design from Drexel University. But graduation didn't bring quite as many opportunities as she hoped.
- [03:56]
Swati Gura
I graduated in 2009. Like, entire firms were collapsing, so finding a job was, like, near impossible at that time. And there was somebody like I was going to school with, and she was working in retail, and she was like, why are you looking for a job? Why don't you work in retail? And I was like, no, I didn't go to school to work in retail. You know, after a few months at home, I was like, well, you know, it doesn't hurt to do something. So I just, like, took up a job in retail, and I think that is the best decision I ever made. You learn to deal with a lot of different personalities. Having that experience helped me really understand how to communicate with people, how to set myself apart, how to tell people this is what they need.
- [04:44]
Caitlin Peterson
Swati eventually got back into her chosen field, and she took several jobs at local design firms. Before long, her ambitions grew bigger.
- [04:53]
Swati Gura
Last place I was working in, there was just, like, so many things I saw that. I was like, okay, there are these good things, but there are these things that I can do so much better. And that's when I made the decision to, like, go out on my own and start my business. I went to one of my past project manager, and I was like, I'm starting my own firm, and I would like to get some feedback and some advice. We were eating lunch, and he said to me, well, in this area, if you throw a rock, it'll hit a designer. So you make sure that you're clear on who you are and you stick to that. I took that advice to heart. There are enough designers that if you're interchangeable with somebody else, you're not doing it right. But if people are coming to you for who you are and what you have to serve, you would be able to create good design. That's what I've stuck to as a firm.
- [05:47]
Caitlin Peterson
In 2016, Swati founded her firm. I wanted to talk to her about why she doesn't conduct discovery calls, how she set herself up to work on higher quality projects, and the billing adjustment that made clients more respectful of her time.
- [06:04]
Unknown
What was your vision for the firm at the beginning? How did you kind of clearly identify what was specific about the work you were going to be doing?
- [06:14]
Swati Gura
So as you know, like when I started my firm, gray was the hottest color.
- [06:20]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [06:20]
Swati Gura
I take pride in saying I've never done a gray wall. And that was one of the things, you know, even at the height of like the farmhouse kitchens.
- [06:28]
Unknown
Gray, gray, gray, yeah.
- [06:30]
Swati Gura
With like white kitchens with white backsplash and all that. I just made sure that I stuck to it and you know, made sure that I wasn't doing 20 projects in a year. But that's not something I ever wanted to do. I was doing two or three projects in the beginning a year. But they gave me enough satisfaction. I still have some of those first early projects on my website because it just makes me nostalgic. But it also shows my growth. I always stuck to who I was. So I was always doing color. I was always, even in the height of grays and whites, I was always very clear on who I am and what I serve. And it was not to serve my purpose, but to serve my clients purpose too. You know, when you're clear on who you are and what you serve, you attract the client who's attracted to what you have to say. Just being very clear on who you are and then tailoring that language to the person you're working with.
- [07:30]
Unknown
Was there any fear in that, in the beginning of saying, okay, I'm going out with a vision that is so specific that I am going to rule out a lot of prospective clients?
- [07:40]
Swati Gura
It was, yeah. Now that I look back and I'm like, well, you know, you know, at that time, you know, I didn't, I didn't think of it that way. This is. I started the firm with this very clear vision. And I remember in 2017, I was asked to do the show house and it was like height of shiplap and you know, white kitchens with white backs. And that was the biggest trending thing right now at that point. And I, in the show house, I did a green kitchen.
- [08:14]
Unknown
Wait, what show house was it?
- [08:15]
Swati Gura
This was called Grace's house. It was a very small show house. But I think that that kind of put me on the map a little bit because like I remember Haley walked through and a couple other people walked through and that kind of like put me on their radar. And also I signed on like two or three clients from that.
- [08:35]
Unknown
Oh, amazing.
- [08:36]
Swati Gura
Yeah, I still work with them. I'm still working on their second houses and stuff. But, you know, it was height of like white kitchens. And here I was with like a green kitchen with a pink backsplash and black countertop with geometric floors, a little bit of art deco going on there. And my whole thing was either they're going to love it or they're going to hate it, but at least I got to do what I really wanted to do. And people loved it because they. Everybody was getting tired of the grays and the whites and, you know, and I ended up signing clients from that. It got published. I mean, till recently, a magazine was like, oh, can we, can we photograph this place and print? I was like, it was unfortunately a show house. It doesn't exist anymore. It was just like, it was just like. Being authentic to myself has always served me well.
- [09:25]
Unknown
I want to talk about show houses in general because if that was your first show house, you just really made a splash at Kips Bay. Did you approach that with sort of the same, I'm going to put blinders on and be true to myself spirit 100%.
- [09:39]
Swati Gura
And that's true for every single thing I do. And I have had a little bit of a pivot year last year where, you know, my son went to college and I was like suddenly an empty nester at 40. And I was like, I don't know what to do with myself anymore. It was a year of self reflection and self growth. And I think that's something that we all should do, like not just as people, but also in our business. Self reflection on business and constant growth in who you are as a business and what you want to portray and what stage of your business life and your personal life you are in. Because, you know, we are not the same people we were five years ago. Five years ago. The way I used to think about things was totally different from the way I think about things now. You know, in the present, you know, it could be maturity, it could be growth or it could be experiences. So I constantly do that kind of like growth. And I was like in that process when I got the call and I walked in the house and we only had like what, five and a half weeks to do that space. And I was like there and I, I was walking up and down and I was like, what do I want this to be about? And I Wanted it to be very authentic.
- [10:59]
Unknown
And we should tell everyone that you were doing the staircase of the whole house?
- [11:03]
Swati Gura
Yes, I was doing the staircase. And it was like connecting all the floors of the house.
- [11:07]
Unknown
It's like four floors. Five.
- [11:09]
Swati Gura
Yeah. Five floors from the garden all the way up to the fourth floor. So, yeah, I was walking up and down and I realized that I wanted to tell this story, story of my personal growth. And that's why it started as like this purple night that became a blue, almost like a dusk. And then from dusk to dawn. And then as you kept growing up, as you go all the way to the top, you have enlightenment or like complete growth process. So I think it's not just the object or the creativity that went into the object. It's a story that supports that creativity. And people don't just buy objects, people buy stories.
- [11:51]
Unknown
How do you weave the story into your process when you're working with a client?
- [11:58]
Swati Gura
I have very defined processes. You know, as, as a designer, every single time I had an issue, we fixed the issue and we made it a process. And to the point where we have very stringent and very like lined up processes. But they also keep evolving as we go forward because of, you know, oh, okay, we thought about this, but we didn't think about this part because, you know, with every project it's a new learning process. Now in terms of storytelling, because we have such defined processes, we put that in a contract. You know, when we, from the initial concept, people know when they're contacting us that it's, it's not whatever goes. There's a process. When you call us after that, what happens? And if you call anybody in my office, even if I'm not there, even if, like anybody picks up the phone, they all know what's going to happen next. You know, if they answered this call, they take down certain amount of information and they'll send them a discovery call. After that, what's going to happen? After that, what's going to happen? So it's not like there's any confusion because our processes are so clear. And by the time they meet me, they already know who I am because of all these steps that, you know, they have followed. And then I go meet with them, I spend two hours in their house and, you know, do the whole spiel. And then I come back and I send them a very detailed statement of work. And in our statement of work, in a very graphic format, like, with like images, we have defined our entire process. You know, this happens because oftentimes people, people get us sow. And then they say, so, what's next? You know, with us, they never have to ask because everything's spelled in word format in the statement of work, and then in a graphic format for the people who don't read. So, you know, sometimes you don't want to read all that, all that documentation. So you basically look at the imagery. You know, sometimes, you know, when you go on website, you see, okay, everything's like a flowchart. That's one page. And you can get with that if there's a little text underneath and you just look at it. And I was like, oh, okay, all right. So then after that she'll do this and then she'll do this. Okay, in the end, this will happen and the end.
- [14:29]
Unknown
And don't you think sometimes that clients just want to know that there is a path? Like maybe it's not necessarily like, okay, step one, step two, step three, but just sort of like, oh, this person is going to give me a roadmap to follow.
- [14:41]
Swati Gura
Yes. Okay. Let me just put it this way. I just put a addition in my house, right? And even though I'm in the industry, it was the most stressful experience of my life because, you know, even though I knew what was going to happen next. When you're living through it or somebody doesn't show up or this doesn't happen, or that's not happening, it's the worst.
- [15:05]
Unknown
Day of your life.
- [15:06]
Swati Gura
Exactly. Now I'm in the industry and I still get stressed over it now. Can you imagine the people who are not in the industry? Because in our industry, if there's one thing we know is anything that can go wrong will go wrong. You know, there will be somewhere you would open a wall and then the pipes are all like, rotten, and now you have to re plumb the whole thing. So you need to kind of know what's coming next to be able to guide them through the process. If you don't know yourself what's going to happen next, how are you going to guide them?
- [15:36]
Unknown
Where else at the beginning of a client relationship are you really setting expectations around both what you'll need from the client and what you and your team are going to deliver? Because I feel like you're really good about that, about being clear so that everyone knows what to expect. But what are the most essential places to you that that shows up?
- [15:59]
Swati Gura
It starts from the discovery call. Like, discovery call is not just like, what do you want to do? But we talk about budget because we get a lot of calls because people Love our work. They see a different language. And unfortunately I wish I could service every single person who calls us because they're attracted to what we do and they like our storytelling. But unfortunately we can't because we have limited resources in personnel and me and we just want to be able to service the people who can afford our services. And so from the get go, the first call, we talk very clearly, like the person who does the discovery call for me, she talks about the budget.
- [16:43]
Unknown
You're not doing the discovery call. I want to talk about that.
- [16:46]
Swati Gura
So I realized that when I was doing discovery calls, these 30 minute discovery calls were becoming an hour long because like, oh, so can you tell me how much would it cost to do this room? It's basically, can I send you pictures and you can tell me beforehand and you know, you know how it becomes. And it's not coming from malice or just people just want to know what they're getting themselves into. And I completely understand that. You know, if I'm not doing my client's work, which is billable work, then I'm wasting my time as a business because I have some responsibility towards my business. And we were getting a lot of like discovery calls initially. Like sometimes we were getting like eight or nine discovery calls in a week. And if I was doing that, I was not getting my work done.
- [17:32]
Unknown
Do you charge for those?
- [17:33]
Swati Gura
No, discovery calls are complimentary. They're 30 minute calls. And it's more, more to assess whether we are a good fit. So then I have this amazing person in my office and we talked a lot. We, we have a right, like a script written and then we, I like, I initially when they start doing it, I listen on the calls and then after the calls are done I would give them feedback. And that kind of like is our discovery call and discovery call is nothing. Just to make sure that we are a good fit for each other in a very small format. So once we do that, we send them a paid in home consultation link where I go in and I talk to them and meet with them, I talk about the budget, I tell them what I do. And I have hardly ever had maybe because of our website or the way we do discovery calls. I've hardly ever had anybody who's like, oh, I didn't know this is what you do or I didn't know that this is what I was getting. You know, people are pretty clear by the time I go there to meet with them in person, in what they're getting and what they're looking for with us. So it's been a good process for us. And then we do this detailed sow and our sow is very like it literally says this is what the firm is, what, this is what our values are. This is what we stand for. This is your designer, this is what we do, this is what our process. So it's not just a contract with just text in. It is to remind them of who they're planning to sign on with. And some reviews of the clients too. Like things that clients have said. We service really well, we really make it about dossier. It's not just a document with like, oh yeah, this is what you're going to get. And these are the standard terms and conditions. It's a detailed document which literally talks about us as people, us as team, and what we service. So with some client reviews, with our processes in graphic format, in word format, you know what to expect, how we charge every single thing. Like what is the timeline, what is the charging process, what is this like everything spelled out. The only parts we customize is the scope of work, which is a letter that defines like this is what we're doing, the amount of time we think it'll take to do the project. And we will sometimes tweak it. Like if we know that they're not even in construction, they're just doing architectural drawings, then we would tweak the timeline to reflect like a two year process or three year process versus like a six month process. But we make sure that the clients understand this. Sow is a, is an expiry, has expiry date. It's not like once you sign on with me, I'm your slave for the rest of your life.
- [20:33]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [21:26]
Unknown
I want to go deep with you on profitability because I know that's always been at the heart of what you want for your business. What shaped your thinking about the way you were going to approach money management.
- [21:41]
Swati Gura
I love to travel. I travel to like five or six or seven different countries every single year. That's my passion. And I have a. I am a little bit of an adventure freak. You know, I like scuba diving, jumping from planes, hiking in very like adventurous spots and stuff. That's something I love to do. And if I'm not able to afford these things that I do after working so hard and my team is not able to afford these things, then what's the point of working? Our clients, they are all very business oriented. You know, they are wealthy because they know that if they put this kind of effort into something, they would get their bonuses, they would get a certain salary. And if you explain it to them in those terms, like you don't work so you can't afford whatever lifestyle you want, then how do you expect me to do that? You want me to be a subject matter expert and you want me and my team to service you in a certain way, then that comes that kind of professionalism, that kind of luxury, and that kind of like experience comes at a cost. And that there was a little bit of like shift that I had to make in my firm. Like in the beginning I was just basically like everybody else, just running in the treadmill, taking on projects and doing work, and then basically breaking even or maybe 10% profitability. And then I was like, wait a minute, why am I driving myself so crazy in doing all these little projects when I can just do one project that's equally profitable and gives me more creativity and be able to service what I do? So it's not about the number of projects, but the quality of projects you did. And also I also made a pivot in shifting my focus from purely a product driven approach to a more experience based model. Initially we were concentrated on creating beautiful design and just running around in circles. But I realized that what truly resonated with our customer was the story behind each piece, the story that we tell on their behalf and the work we put into understanding who they are and converting it into design. That's the difference. It's very important to be very clear on who you are.
- [24:09]
Unknown
Number one, I've heard people say, you know, we're going to take like the bigger, fewer, bigger, better jobs. If you also say, okay, we're going to invest in the storytelling aspect of these projects, how do you start to make that happen in real time in your business?
- [24:29]
Swati Gura
So it starts from every touch point that the client will see, right? So for me, it was our website. You know, our website became less about, oh, anybody can have my services to who I am, what my values are. I only have work that I want to attract more work.
- [24:52]
Unknown
Like that was a shift for you. You didn't start with that robust website.
- [24:56]
Swati Gura
No, I mean, I. I improved my website. I had a basic website, and then I started adding more and more information on it. More blog posts, more like, more information stuff, and more what we are, who we are. This is what. Because, like I said, there were weeks that we were getting 10 discovery calls, and I was like, half of these people are like, most of these people are not my clients, and most of stuff is not what I want to do. You know, if. If I'm interchangeable with Designer A on the left and Designer B on the left, then I'm doing something totally wrong. And there might be some people who are just starting out their business or are in a very certain kind of market who are listening to this and just shaking their hand like, yeah, easy enough for you to say, you know, But I. I'm going to say it. It wasn't easy. In the beginning, I was doing the similar kind of things that everybody else does. You know, in the beginning, I was taking on projects of doing a kitchen, which was like. I was like, why are we even bothering with it? You could just go to anybody and do it. You know, whatever. What am I servicing? But then when I did get that kitchen, I made sure that there was a growth that happens in a client. And I'm not just a yes man who's taking orders. I explained to them, well, I understand you want a white kitchen, but have you thought about this? But how about we go here and how about I educate you in this? You know, how about we make a information exchange? You know, so there's a growth that happens in them and a growth that happens in you. Every time I meet a new client, I grow, I learn something new, because I'm not stuck to my ways. I always try to find something new and understand from where they're coming from. And then they see that I'm trying to understand where they're coming from, so they try to understand who I am and what I am bringing to the table. So it becomes a really nice, fun exchange process. So, yeah, so that's the process. And now the question about storytelling. I think I was very consistent about that with not just my website, my social media, too. There'll be, like, information that I share. You know, this is the story behind this. These are the people behind this. Then we started doing that with a styling, too, and we were taking I started hiring, like, florist who would, like, cut up fruits and put, like, beautiful fruit scapes. And, you know, pictures started looking less like interior design pictures and more like still lives, which to me was like, you know, house is not just just a table or a chair, but it's a sum of a lot of different parts. So, you know, that started changing in terms of the way we styled. And then I do show houses I've done for now, and all those show houses, I just make sure people understand very clearly who I am, what I'm servicing, what my story is. And that has helped a lot because, you know, even though there are people who have never been to those show houses, they've called us for a project and they would be like, even though we never went to the show house, we saw the work and we read the story and we are very attracted to it and we would like you to tell our story. So that's helped a lot.
- [28:23]
Unknown
How have you structured your business to set yourself up to be profitable?
- [28:28]
Swati Gura
So first, like when. When I started out, our. Our thing was very straightforward. Like everybody else, it was like a flat fee. And then whatever we sell, we do markups on it. And then I realized that we were losing a lot of money doing that, just the flat fee. And sometimes we are not very realistic in estimating those flat fees because we're like, oh, if they see $90,000 in design fee, they're going to faint, or something like that. So I kind of started, like, having my team track every single minute they work on a project, and we are not very good at it. Sometimes we'll track very well, sometimes we don't. But. But we got more diligent about tracking, and we realized that design fee that we were initially charging was also not servicing all the time we were spending on this project. Whatever the number we were coming up with, sometimes it's not very realistic. Because sometimes you think you look at a number and you go, oh, that seems very high. I don't know if they'll balk at that design fee. We've all been there at some point, but then you're shortchanging yourself, right? So what we realized is that it's not just the design hours and the time to source products, but it's also like, afterwards, because we have such a high touch and luxury firm, we were spending so much time in making sure everything goes right and everything's done properly, and all the things were done according to plan. So we were spending so much time that we were losing money on. So so now we have changed our process. Now we have a flat fee for design, Then we do markup on products, and then we do a project management fee. So once everything's ordered, after that we start charging first five visits on site to manage the vendors is already incorporated in the flat fee. And then after that, any visits we do is going to be billed by an hourly rate.
- [30:31]
Unknown
Are you charging for other project management? Like all of those emails with vendors, all of the kind of correspondence to get things to install day.
- [30:41]
Swati Gura
So some of these emails to vendors get absorbed in the markup cost.
- [30:47]
Unknown
Got it. Okay.
- [30:48]
Swati Gura
Yeah. And it's just project management, which is like, if you're coordinating with a plumber to get to the house and we're emailing it five times, then we're sending him this and coordinating with the client. All that becomes billable time.
- [31:04]
Unknown
One, how did that shift, you know, your P and L statement, but also, how did that shift, the way you talked about money with clients in multiple ways?
- [31:13]
Swati Gura
So first it was a big realization for us how much time we were wasting and not getting paid for. Every employee that you have in your firm needs to make you money. They need to be profitable. So, you know, we became very diligent about tracking our time, and we realized how much money we were losing on the table. So that just really helped us assess and reflect on ourselves. Like, do we really need to sit on that floor plan for like seven hours and think about every or is like, at some point you say, okay, I think this is the only way it can be designed. You know what I'm saying? You know, as creatives, we can just like, mull over things for till cows come home. But it's also like a practical thing. So it helped us streamline ourselves in terms of our time, number one. Number two, because we were billing for, like, our time the way we should, clients became more respectful of our time. You know, there's sometimes, do I really need to sit there and watch the paint dry? Because there is no bill to it. They want you to sit there and watch the paint dry. And then when it became so becomes billable time. Sure. Yeah. My team, somebody from my team will be there. And then, you know, we started hearing, it's okay, I'll manage it, it's not a big deal, or I'll have my nanny do it. You know, something like that. There was a lot more, like, lot more respect that started coming when it started coming with a price tag. So. Because otherwise, people think our team members are their private assistants sometimes. So, you know, that kind of helped define the boundaries a little more. I am all for being friends with my clients. I really do become very close to my clients, where I know everything about their personal life. And we go for coffee afterwards, we go for dinner. But when we are working together, it's very important for me and them to have that client and service provider boundary.
- [33:13]
Unknown
How do you set your markup, or how do you approach that percentage, and how do you talk about that with clients?
- [33:19]
Swati Gura
So when we do custom items, the margin percentages are higher because this item doesn't exist in the world, and we are creating it from scratch. And then we have very good relationships with our custom builder that if we were to create. If that item existed in reality, it would cost way more than us designing it and creating it from scratch. So the markups on items like that. And also we have, like, very good buying power on certain vendors where we have stocking dealer accounts, wholesale accounts, so we know what the retail price are, and we've set benchmarks against that. And I'm very clear in talking about markups, because oftentimes people will ask us, you know, do you share your discount with us? And I would say, yes, we do share some of our discount with you, where my discount is more than 30%. If my discount is more than 30%, then you get like 20% or 10% off what retail will cost you. But if my discount is 30%, where I'm going, like, you want to buy something for Restoration Hardware, you know, and I'm only getting 20% off, you're not getting that 20%. That's my, you know, and that's, that's. That's. It's very clear in the beginning. And we tell them anything that's being purchased through us or specified bias will have some. Even if it's retail, we'll have some kind of markup for us to send that order out, follow up on that order, and then make sure that when it comes in, it is what it is, because we check everything and then it's installed. Because there'll be times where we'll purchase something for them, and then something goes wrong, and then you have to return it. And then there's this fee and that fee and that fee, and clients don't want to pay those fees. Fees. I need to be able to cover myself for those things, you know, so.
- [35:14]
Unknown
Just make it go away for them.
- [35:15]
Swati Gura
Exactly. That's true. So, you know, we are tradespeople, which sometimes give us kickbacks. 10 to 20%. If you're buying plumbing Fixtures or you know, any appliances and stuff like that. Those don't have high margins. They would have 10% margins, 20% margins. And we, anything that goes out of our firms will have some kind of markup. You know, we don't, we don't just like buy it from here and just pass it on because it's, it doesn't work for us like that. If that is the case, we just tell the client, just go buy it yourself. We are not marking up the light bulbs like that makes no sense. What we charge for our time and then you get all the bulbs at cost and here's the receipt. So yeah, so those, those kinds of things. But most of the things we buy are to trade only. We hardly ever deal with retail because you know, there, it's just if you are going to purchase retail, you don't need me. That's not what I do. If you want to do like something unique and creative for your space, then you need me. So, you know, things that are more mechanical, like plumbing appliances get a smaller, like 10 to 20% markup. But things that are custom light fixtures, custom sofas, all those have a larger markup because we have higher buying power. And it's not to say that our clients are paying way more than what they would. It just to say that we do so much business with these companies, they give us such good buying power that you're still saving money even though we have higher markup.
- [36:52]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [37:32]
Unknown
What are some of the most profound changes around money that you made in your business besides the way you charge?
- [37:41]
Swati Gura
As any creative in the beginning, you know, I would never look at my P and L. It was like a thing I would look at at the end of the year. Sometimes I didn't even know what my books look like. I had like a higher, like how to hire bookkeeper. Especially in the first few years I, I had this one woman who would come end of the year and start balancing my books and at some point she was like, I can't work for you anymore. It's too much of a mess. And I was like, well, I gotta get this in order. So then I hired somebody who came into our business and who became a very integral part part of our business. And she helped us set up a lot of our money related systems. And the first few months, like, she was like, oh my God, I need to fix so many issues here. And. And I was sitting with her and not just like seeing all the issues, but learning, you know, because I'm not an accountant, that's not how my brain works. I've been scientific and advertising and marketing. Like as a business owner you have to wear so many hats. So I kind of like started sitting with her and seeing how she categorizes different purchases because we do such wide variety of purchases, you know, so how are we categorizing them so that we know what to do more of, to be more profitable versus what to do less of? And just basically being able to see my books at the end of the day and seeing what's outstanding, what's gone, how much profit are we making? If I'm doing my payrolls, what's left over, you know? And now I start looking at my books every week. And that also brought that thought process of do I need a new client or am I just trying to sign on a new client for the sake of vanity? It just helped me figure out what kind of clients. I would say this ex client was very profitable and we spent this much time with them and they did most of the custom stuff and that helped us a lot. And now that means that I do I need to take two more clients the end of this year or how many more clients do. I don't need to take 20 clients every year. If I have two or three good clients, I don't need to drive myself or my team ragged. I could tell the other clients we are at a weight at capacity right now and if you would like to work with us, maybe we can work next, next year. If you're just wanting to do. And there are. Sometimes I would look at the books and things have been slow. I was like, okay, we are doing that kitchen, you know, even though it's not a whole house, it's just one kitchen. I think we need to do that kitchen to stay. So looking at your books and looking at your numbers also helps you determine what is it that your business needs?
- [40:26]
Unknown
That weekly cadence of checking in, what do you see that either gives you pause or gives you confidence? What are the, what are the key metrics on a weekly basis that kind of tell you how things are going.
- [40:40]
Swati Gura
Basically just keeping in check that, you know whatever is coming in, and if there is a discrepancy between what's in your account versus what's outstanding, then there needs to be, okay, what is it that we're doing wrong right now? Like, do we need to bill more? Have we not built enough time? And that sometimes also lets us realize that, oh my God, we didn't build for this much time or, or something wrong and we need to fix our processes. Unless you have those figures in front of you and you're looking at them, you don't know what is it that you're doing wrong. And the way it, it works is like, if we are doing our part right, if you're spending X amount of dollars, then everything should work the way it should. So if you're like, we are taking on two projects and they're two projects that are running simultaneously, we are allocating X amount of time on this and X amount of time. So now my payroll and all the work that goes into that project should be paid for. And we take payments on materials up front. So we don't do half and half. Like, if you're ordering something from us, unless something is like coming after seven months or eight months, then we'll do 50, 50. But like, most of the times, anything custom, we take full payment upfront. So if there's a discrepancy in the amount of money coming in and the amount of money going out, there's definitely something going wrong.
- [42:05]
Unknown
That design fee, do you charge it all at once or is that phased out for the client?
- [42:09]
Swati Gura
It's phased out in two parts. So we take 50% deposit at the time of signing. Because we do spend a lot of time at the beginning. And then the second part is received after the first part. Like once we do the first present the final presentation, sometimes we do first presentation, we get some feedback and we make some edits and change some things or find something else, and then there's a final presentation. Once that final presentation is made and before we go into sourcing, that's when we charge the clients for the final design fee.
- [42:40]
Unknown
So, I mean, your cash flow is fairly predictable.
- [42:44]
Swati Gura
Very predictable and very straightforward. This is why it's never a stressor. And when it's, this is why it should always be like net positive. And this is why I want to check in and make sure, you know, everything's going. And if it's not, then there is a problem, you know, so that's kind of. And it's never happened where I'm like, oh, my God, what's going on?
- [43:05]
Unknown
Where'd the money go?
- [43:06]
Swati Gura
Exactly. Yeah. So, but it's like just that check in every week. Just make sure that, like, there's things that are getting billed, things that are getting paid on time, vendors that are getting paid. Like, nobody, none of our vendors ever have to, like, say, oh, when are we getting paid? Or anything. We are very, like, proactive sometimes. They would not bill. I was like, don't you want to get paid? How do you run your business? And it's like, we run it that way. And we kind of tell our vendors, too, like, if you're not profitable, if you're not paying your bills, then it's a problem for me because then you're going to fall out of business. And I want you to stay in business because I like working with you. You know, there was this one time where I was in your business and I was like, oh, yeah, let's just do this. Spend this on marketing. Spend this on this. Spend it like every shiny object. I ended up. And that's another thing that profitability and looking at your books comes very handy. If somebody comes to me and says, hey, listen, do you want to do a show house? I look at my books. I don't think I can afford to do a show house right now, you know, Or I look, hey, listen, do you want to publish in our magazine or do you want to take out an ad in our magazine? I look at my books, I was like, yeah, in past, this has produced no roi. And right now, I don't have that kind of bandwidth to spend on this, you know, this is why looking at your books is also very important to make these kind of informed decisions. Whether you want to do certain things or not. I need to have all the employees. I have a buffer of a year. If we don't sign a client for a year, I need to have that much money somewhere so that even though we don't sign a client for six months, I'm able to pay this payroll for six months. Because, you know, with current economic situation, whatever is going on in the world you don't covet came out of nowhere. But we were fine because I had that padding and I could, like, you know, take care of my farm and take care of myself in that time where we were not doing any work. So if anything we have learned is that if you're not profitable, you're basically not serving the ethos of your business. You need to have some padding to be able to like, if you don't sign a client for next six months, you should be able to pay for your employees. They shouldn't be penalized for a slow economy or whatever else that is going on.
- [45:22]
Unknown
Where did you land on kind of the cadence of clients or projects that you wanted to say yes to? What does a full plate look like for firm now?
- [45:32]
Swati Gura
I don't take on too many projects. I take on like four or five projects a year, but they are meaty projects. Like, they're big projects. And I've talked to my bookkeeper, I was like, oh, how are you doing compared to other medium sized firms? And she was like, no, you're, you're doing pretty good. So I, I was like, okay, sounds good. All right, then we don't need more than these kind of projects and we can just really dig down and take a few weeks to like just focus on designing these projects and sourcing for these projects and not be on constant hamster wheel. But that's, that's the cadence I'd always set from the beginning. Because when I started my firm, that was one thing I did not want to do, that I learned from other firms. And you know what, now that looking back, we are probably more profitable than, you know, some of the people I work for. And we probably produce more revenue with like quarter of the clients that they service. And I think that's how we figured it out and that's how we set it up. And I'm very grateful that I was able to pull this off.
- [46:46]
Unknown
Yeah, I did read just about all of your website preparing for this interview. And one thing I loved in the part that describes you is it talked about your focus on rational architecture and emotional design. And I thought that one is a very beautiful phrase. But can you tell me what that means to you and how that shows up in the work that you're doing with your clients?
- [47:12]
Swati Gura
So rational architecture is like informed by the place the building is in. Right. If you're in Northeast, we are not going to do thatched roofs. It's just not going to work out, you know, so architecture is always informed by the environment that it lives in. You know, there are some spaces that you walk into, you open the door and you walk in and suddenly you're like, I feel like I'm home. And that's kind of what I want to create every single time we take on a client. You know, I put so much time and effort in having them do inspiration boards, having them fill out a questionnaire, do a call with them to understand who they are as people talk to them about their moms, their grandmothers, what their fathers did or what they do or what is important to them, who are their children and what do they want for them. Because, you know, the ultimate compliment that any client has given me is like, oh, my friend came in and she was like, oh my God, this is so beautiful. It's so you. And that to me is an alter. That means we have been able to succeed in taking the essence of the people they are and convert it into a space that they live in. And that to me is the emotional design.
- [48:32]
Unknown
What are you looking for from the people you want to work with? Like, how do you want that ethos to resonate with them? And what makes you say yes, not necessarily to the job, but to the client?
- [48:45]
Swati Gura
So some of the words that I look for is, this is our forever home. We want our home to tell our story. We want a place where we can come back to and call our own. Like, these are the words that sound like they want to personalize this space, not just for the vanity aspect. And there's a vanity aspect in our. Like, don't get me wrong, like if you're hiring a designer, there's a bit of a vanity aspect. And we, we are a vanity industry, you know, but, you know, there's this whole element of keeping with the Joneses versus having a home. And I don't do well with keeping up with the Joneses client. I do well with the clients that want authentic home that tells their story. This is the reason why if you go on my website, every project looks so different from the other, you know, because it's literally essence of the people who live in it. I'll tell you a little story about this amazing client I work with. Her mom was like quite a mover and shaker. She traveled all over the world teaching English to different. She was American and she lived in Syria, in Iran and Africa. She went all over the place and she had like collected all these beautiful things. And then she married a Spanish man. And then my client, who's the product of this relationship, was Catholic, Spanish, and she married a Jewish man and converted into Judaism. Now how beautiful is the story? So many different cultural threads. So she was like, I want an item that tells who my story, like my story. So we made this custom carved door for her which had this Alhambra pattern with nods to her Spanish roots. And on top in Yiddish it says piece of home. And she, we created this door for her, which is like between her kitchen and her and her dining room. And, you know, it was an expense. And she was like, you know what? I love the design. I love it and I'm going to do it. And when you put the door up, she was like, now both my daughters want this door should have been a.
- [51:02]
Unknown
Double door so they could each have one.
- [51:03]
Swati Gura
I know, right? But that to me is like, you know, oftentimes kids don't want anything from their parents house, you know, and that to me was like such a beautiful thing that not only did the kids see the resonation, but she. It was like true storytelling through items. And this is the kind of stuff I want that makes the hard days look good, you know, because every will have a hard day. But if I'm able to have that one day where I say I was able to create something absolutely unique for this beautiful client, this beautiful soul, and the. It's going to be in their family for the rest of this door's life, it just makes me feel like I contributed to something that's going to be generational.
- [51:52]
Unknown
What is the one thing you know now that you wish you had known when you launched your firm that everything.
- [51:59]
Swati Gura
Always turns out all right? You know, when I. No, for sure. You know, this is one thing that we all forget to tell ourselves when we start our business. We get on this hamster wheel, right. And we're running and running. And we always operate from a place of stress.
- [52:15]
Caitlin Peterson
Yeah.
- [52:16]
Swati Gura
You know, everything we start, we always, like, take on all the stress and all this responsibility in our shoulder. Like, we have control over everything, which we don't. Sometimes, you know, sometimes things are just organic and they have. You have to go through, you know, downs and ups to be able to reach a certain place as a. As a firm, as a person and as a business. But when we are in those little, like, valleys, we just take so much stress on. We operate from such a place of scarcity that we forget to enjoy the moments and we just, like, trudge through them to get to the next, next point. And if I had to do it again, I think I would have. Or if I had to go back to my starting self, I would say, take a moment. There's so many roses to be smelled along the way. You don't have to constantly run through. Through things. You know, my firm, when I started out, I couldn't even have dreamt all the things and the people and the. And the trajectory. My firm, like, if I had to write the wildest story, it would not be this and it turned out to be this beautiful story of like this amazing experiences I had. And I'm sure there are more successes to be had or it could have been more like there's always a relative degree. But where I am at, sometimes I look back and was like, oh my God, I started from there and look at where we are today. So it always, always ends up being okay. You have to give yourself grace, take a deep breath, and everything always turns out for the best.
- [53:52]
Caitlin Peterson
What does success look like for you today?
- [53:56]
Swati Gura
Today for me, success is peace and happiness and self assurance. You know, having been through so many different ups and downs, being able to sit here and take a deep breath and not worry about anything and just being in the moment, to me, that is success. And you know, just taking a pause and being able to have this conversation and reflect on all the things that have happened. Good, bad, ugly, really pretty. But you know, all those experiences make you who you are. And to me, success is if you feel happy and you look back at your story and you shake your head and you say, I did a good one. That to me is success.
- [54:48]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Before you go, if you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, more great podcasts, check out new products, or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com if you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share. I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@tradetalesusinessofhome.com finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. Trade Tales is produced by me, Kaitlyn Peterson with Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you again in two weeks.