The pandemic almost shut down Meg Lonergan’s business—here’s how she revived it [Rebroadcast]

Summary

Trade Tales Podcast Summary
Episode: The pandemic almost shut down Meg Lonergan’s business—here’s how she revived it [Rebroadcast]
Release Date: July 2, 2025
Hosted by Kaitlin Petersen, Editor-in-Chief of Business of Home

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Introduction

In this rebroadcast episode of Trade Tales, Kaitlin Petersen revisits a 2022 conversation with Houston-based interior designer Meg Lonergan. The episode delves into Meg's journey of nearly shuttering her business during the pandemic and her subsequent revival strategies that led to building a stronger, more resilient firm.

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Early Career and Beginnings

Meg Lonergan shares her early fascination with interior design, inspired by her aunt's stunning home decorations in Baton Rouge. Despite studying political science and French in college, Meg's passion for design led her to work in small businesses, including Antique Asian Furniture Co. and a fine bedding linen store in Boulder. These experiences solidified her love for design and paved the way for her career in interiors.

Meg Lonergan [00:02]: "I was in a place where I was like, I can't hire. I don't know how to hire people... It took that sort of dramatic experience to really force me to look inward at my own weaknesses."

After college, Meg moved to New Zealand to be with her high school sweetheart, Tim. Without formal education in design, she secured a position at a showroom under the mentorship of Colin, an influential figure who taught her the importance of innate talent and continuous learning in design.

Meg Lonergan [03:59]: "I had a real apprenticeship with him. So that was sort of the beginning."

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Business Growth and Early Success

Upon returning to the United States, Meg and Tim settled in Houston. Meg took a part-time position at a design firm that strictly required formal design degrees, leaving her feeling undervalued. Her first major project, assisting with a stately home purchase by her in-laws’ friends, marked the true beginning of her own firm. This project not only boosted her confidence but also landed her work featured in Better Homes and Gardens.

Meg Lonergan [04:50]: "I had no idea what I was doing. I just didn't feel worthy of $45... I resigned from the firm and took the challenge."

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Challenges in Team Building

As Meg’s business grew, so did the complexities of managing a team. Initially, her hiring process was unstructured, leading to high turnover and inefficiency. Meg admits to hiring out of desperation rather than strategy, resulting in a lack of cohesion and effectiveness within her team.

Meg Lonergan [11:33]: "All my hires were out of desperation. I never hired the right people."

This period highlighted Meg's leadership weaknesses, particularly her difficulty in fostering a collaborative team environment. Recognizing these flaws was a pivotal moment that prompted her to seek mentorship and coaching to improve her managerial skills.

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Impact of the Pandemic

The COVID-19 pandemic was a turning point for Meg's business. Struggling with work-life balance after the birth of her first child and facing a dysfunctional team, Meg felt overwhelmed and considered quitting her business. The pandemic exacerbated existing issues, leading to the loss of her team as employees sought stability elsewhere.

Meg Lonergan [15:28]: "I was at the point of absolute exhaustion. Zero help, zero takeaway food... It was very, very hard."

During a family trip to New Zealand amidst the pandemic, Meg experienced intense isolation and increased workloads, which culminated in deciding to let go of her entire team. This drastic move forced her to confront her leadership shortcomings and inspired a profound personal transformation.

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Self-Reflection and Personal Growth

In the aftermath of losing her team, Meg engaged in deep self-reflection with the help of a business coach, yoga teachers, and a therapist. She acknowledged her need to change, release control, and build trust within her new team structure. This period was marked by humility and a willingness to learn from past mistakes.

Meg Lonergan [13:12]: "I never knew how to work as a team... I was the oldest child, so I was the bossy sister."

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Strategies for Building a Strong Team

Meg’s revival strategy focused on creating a trusted, cohesive team. She carefully selected team members who aligned with her firm's values and emphasized trust and collaboration. Meg now approaches hiring strategically, ensuring that new hires bring the right skills and mindset to contribute positively to the team dynamic.

Meg Lonergan [24:16]: "The foundation of successful and good team is trust. And without trust, you cannot function in a high-level team."

A significant milestone in this transformation was when her team members felt comfortable declining last-minute requests without fear of repercussions, demonstrating the established trust and mutual respect within the firm.

Meg Lonergan [25:11]: "We are doing the work. They are able to trust me enough to know that I'm not going to fire them if they tell me no."

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Financial Strategies and Billing Methods

Meg discusses her evolving approach to billing, moving away from flat fees and hourly rates to a monthly flat fee subscription model. This change ensures consistent compensation and reduces the unpredictability associated with project timelines. The subscription model also fosters a more respectful and efficient client relationship, as it aligns incentives for timely project completion.

Meg Lonergan [34:16]: "I have enough data from all the years to really have figured this out... this feels the most comfortable for me and the most comfortable for the client."

This approach not only stabilizes her cash flow but also makes her services more accessible and psychologically palatable for clients, enhancing overall business profitability and client satisfaction.

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Definition of Success

Meg redefines success as maintaining inner calm and mental peace amidst the chaos of the design business. For her, a successful day is one where she remains unflustered by challenges and maintains her well-being, rather than solely focusing on financial or project-based achievements.

Meg Lonergan [44:06]: "Success is the feeling of calm... I've had a good day and a successful day when I have been able to maintain a level of peace within myself."

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Conclusion and Insights

Meg Lonergan’s journey underscores the importance of self-awareness, strategic team building, and adaptive financial strategies in sustaining and growing a design business. Her experience during the pandemic served as a catalyst for profound personal and professional growth, leading to a more resilient and harmonious business model. Meg’s story serves as an inspiring example for interior designers facing similar challenges, highlighting that introspection and willingness to change are key to overcoming adversity and achieving long-term success.

Meg Lonergan [42:34]: "Accolades do not define anyone as a business or make them a better or worse design firm. You have to fill your cup."

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Notable Quotes

• Meg Lonergan [00:02]: "It took that sort of dramatic experience to really force me to look inward at my own weaknesses."

• Meg Lonergan [11:33]: "All my hires were out of desperation. I never hired the right people."

• Meg Lonergan [24:16]: "The foundation of successful and good team is trust."

• Meg Lonergan [34:16]: "This feels the most comfortable for me and the most comfortable for the client."

• Meg Lonergan [44:06]: "Success is the feeling of calm."

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This episode provides valuable insights into navigating business crises, emphasizing the significance of internal growth and strategic planning in the face of external challenges. Meg Lonergan's resilience and adaptability offer actionable lessons for designers aiming to build sustainable and fulfilling practices.

Transcript

[Meg Lonergan]

I was in a place where I was like, I can't hire. I don't know how to hire people. I'm not hiring the right people. And I'm obviously a terrible leader because I can't keep anyone and I can't train anyone and I can't get this right. But we have tons of work and the work we do is good. It took that sort of dramatic experience to really force me to look inward at my own weaknesses, to realize that some of this stuff was easily fixed within me. Changing.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. As we wrap up the seventh season of the show, we're taking a break this month to dream up even more great stories for you about building better design business.

[Alex Kaler]

Since my conversation with Alex Kaler aired.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Two weeks ago, I've been inundated with messages about how much her experience resonated and how now, for many of you, listening to the way she navigated falling out of love with her business and finding her way back again has made you feel like you too, have the ability to reassess the way you're working and prioritize your own joy. With that in mind, I've picked out one of my favorite episodes from the show's archive to share with you today. It's my conversation with Houston based designer meg Lonergan from 2022, where we talked about how she almost decided to shutter her firm for good, and how instead she ultimately decided to build it back better. We'll return with an exciting batch of new episodes starting in late July, but for now, enjoy the show. Hey designers. By now you've probably heard about Ask Us Anything. It's our new advice show, which airs right here every other Wednesday. In every episode, I'm fielding a business question from an anonymous designer and then tapping a former Trade Tales guest to offer helpful guidance. We've solved some great dilemmas so far, and now we want to hear from you. What are the questions that are keeping you awake right now? Maybe you're struggling with pushy clients or crappy contractors or toxic employees. Maybe your questions are more philosophical about when to hire or how to get payroll right? Or how to know if you need a coach? Don't worry, we're going to keep it anonymous. So if you've got a question that you'd like answered, please start the conversation by sending me an email@trade talesusofhome.com I can't wait to hear from you.

[Meg Lonergan]

Everybody just seemed to care about their houses in my Life as a young child. My aunt is a well known decorator in Baton Rouge and her homes have always been gorgeous and stunning. And I guess that's just a core memory of mine being in her house. I went to college. I studied like political science and French. My family lived in Singapore at the time and I went to school in Colorado and it was just lonely. So I took these jobs working for small businesses throughout the years of college. And I became really close with the owners of these small businesses and they sort of became my adoptive family. And the businesses were antique Asian Furniture Co. And I used to work on Sundays there and rearrange the shop when no one would come in the entire day. So I would merchandise and style and play and I loved that. I loved it so much. I also worked for a fine bedding linen store in an old house in downtown Boulder. I loved being in that environment.

[Alex Kaler]

That's Meg Lonergan. By her final year of college, one thing was clear. She was destined for a career in design. But after earning her degree, she made two major leaps. First to another continent and then into interiors.

[Meg Lonergan]

My high school sweetheart Tim, who's now my husband, he is from New Zealand. So after college I moved to New Zealand and talked my way into a job at a showroom. With no experience and no education in design. I got a job working for an incredible man named Colin, who really showed me that design and a good eye is truly something you're born with and then you have to hone in and educate. So while I didn't have formal education in it, I had a real apprenticeship with him. So that was sort of the beginning.

[Alex Kaler]

After three years abroad, the couple decided to move back to the US as they put down roots in Houston. Meg took a part time position with a design firm, but the work culture marked a stark departure from her previous gig.

[Meg Lonergan]

That firm was pretty particular about insisting that all of their designers have degrees in design. It was pretty much vocalized to me from day one that there was no real future for me because I didn't have a degree in interior design or interior architecture. I never really felt comfortable because of that. But in that time, like right about six months in, my in laws best friends had bought a really beautiful stately home across from Rice University. And they asked me to help them with it. And I had no idea what I was doing, zero idea. I remember calling my aunt and being like, do I charge $25 an hour? And she was like, at least 45. But I just didn't feel worthy of 45. I mean, even 25. I mean, I was just, I had no idea what I was doing. I resigned to the firm and took the challenge and helped them with that house and it turned out great. And that sort of kick started my, my firm and my confidence. So yeah, that was kind of the beginning.

[Alex Kaler]

From there, Meg's business quickly took off and her very next project landed in the pages of Better Homes and Gardens. But while her talent provided an early springboard into the industry, growing her business presented some unexpected hurdles. It would even put the firm's future in jeopardy. I wanted to talk to her about the crisis that caused her to re exam her team building approach, the pricing model she created to foster a smoother design process, and why a cost obsessed client isn't a fit for her firm. When did you start to feel like you had hit your stride in the business?

[Meg Lonergan]

My firstborn was born at the very end of 2011. And at that time I was still working out of my house and I had one design assistant. I thought that was the end. I thought like, okay, you know, I played designer a little bit and now I'm a mom. You know, I really didn't think I wanted to have both things at the same time or I think I could have them both at the same time. And so the first year of his birth, I really hunkered down and didn't really work and wrangled with that.

[Alex Kaler]

Was that hard? Did you miss it?

[Meg Lonergan]

I did. I couldn't really stop. You know, people are still calling, they. I still love it. I'm still obsessed with it. I still have all the crap at my house, the samples, you know, junky furniture that I pick up is like on the porch. But I remember a friend of mine, Sarah, telling me, you should get an office. And I didn't think that was possible for myself. I was like, an office, like, that's real.

[Alex Kaler]

Was it like, who pays for that? Or was it just sort of the leap to taking yourself that seriously?

[Meg Lonergan]

That was it. It just, I didn't take myself that seriously. I had really had this hang up about not having a degree. So I really had this feeling like I wasn't a real designer because I didn't have a piece of paper telling me I was a real designer. So I didn't really feel worthy.

[Alex Kaler]

Right.

[Meg Lonergan]

We were outgrowing that house and we were like, we have to get this stuff out of here. Like, I really do need an office. So I leased a really small, little cute studio. And that was a big step to kind of reinvest. To reinvest and also to just separate like work and home.

[Alex Kaler]

What did that change for you? Emotionally?

[Meg Lonergan]

It felt like a relief. It felt like I could be home and not be thinking about projects. Definitely was tidier. And it was fun. It was fun setting up the office. It was fun building it, creating it, designing it. I felt proud to have clients there.

[Alex Kaler]

Did you start to staff up again once you had that space?

[Meg Lonergan]

Yes, yes. And so I probably only had about one person through those years. And then I moved to a bigger office and then we got more people. Yeah. And then my most recent move is. Has been this year and we have moved into an incredible studio space which is a hundred year old house. It's my old house that I used to live in.

[Alex Kaler]

Wait, what?

[Meg Lonergan]

Yes. So we never sold it. We just moved out of it and got a bigger. We. We needed more space. We had a third child and this house is typically old with not that great of storage. And so the baby was sleeping in a closet for two years. A walk in closet. But we were outgrowing it and so we ended up just holding onto it. We moved into a bigger house for our family and then we held onto this. And it's already proving to be so beneficial. Our clients love it. It's like such a beautiful experience to come here and have a meeting. We're able to. The way we have it set up is all the offices and libraries are upstairs. And then the downstairs is sort of like a showroom with furniture that's all part of our inventory available for purchase with a huge dining table, conference table that we host meetings at.

[Alex Kaler]

Oh, that sounds magical.

[Meg Lonergan]

It is magical. And we have a kitchen and we can have lunch. It's just nice. We also love the part of town we're in. We can walk and get coffees and. Actually, a funny story. Yesterday we had a meeting we sort of spaced about and it was a new client coming in and Melissa, one of my designers, was like, oh no, I'm not really dressed for a new client today because we didn't think we had anything on. And so she just walked down the street like two blocks to a cute little boutique and got a great little dress and came back.

[Alex Kaler]

And I was like, I'm ready.

[Meg Lonergan]

Yeah, yeah. So it. We're. I think all the whole team is loving it. I'm really loving it. I'm spending a lot of time here.

[Alex Kaler]

That's amazing. How did you grow your team over time? When did you feel ready to hire and how did you make that decision, you know, as you kept growing?

[Meg Lonergan]

So I never Had a plan, and I was constantly flying by the seat of my pants. I had mentors in the industry. And of course, at that time, I was like, Toby Fairley's blog was, like, very helpful. Like, I was, like, trying to. This was sort of before podcasts, right? So you were just trying to learn however you could. I was, like, reading all the design business books and everything like that. But, I mean, at that time, flat fees sounded unattainable for me. You know, like, I just wasn't in that place with the scope and scale of work I was doing. So it. It felt disconnected. Like, I would read about the magic.

[Alex Kaler]

Of a flat fee. Right.

[Meg Lonergan]

Yeah. And I read about all these amazing, like, foundational business ideas that every design firm should have to help them be more efficient and more processed. And I was just like, that's amazing, but I can't do that. So I would. Basically, all of my hires were, like, out of desperation. I know that sounds awful, but it really was.

[Alex Kaler]

It's honest.

[Meg Lonergan]

Yeah, it's honest. It was like, you know, I would try to find somebody, and literally, like, I'd have two interviews, if two. Sometimes it would just be the first person, and I'd be like, great, you could do it.

[Alex Kaler]

What were you hiring for at the beginning?

[Meg Lonergan]

Junior designers and project managers, like, underneath me that did kind of both things. And then I'd always have somebody do ordering, and I was like, 0 for 3 with people doing that.

[Alex Kaler]

Okay.

[Meg Lonergan]

Because I didn't look to hire in a strategic way. I never hired the right people. And I can say all this now with where I have come from, with all the mistakes I've made. But during that time when I was in it, I was a young mom. I mean, two little kids, great big projects coming. I really just was doing the best I could. I really wasn't sure. You know, now it's different. I've been in talks with one potential new hire since August and to start in January, you know, like a. It's just more serious and it's more strategic and thoughtful and cautious. And I think it's. Obviously, I think it's going to serve me better in the long run because I just made a lot of mistakes previously with that. And I know this now because I work with a business coach, but I actually never knew how to work as a team in a team. I never played team sports. I ran cross country and trash. Yeah. So I didn't. I was the oldest child, so I was the bossy sister.

[Alex Kaler]

Oh, my God. Same.

[Meg Lonergan]

Okay, so this has been really humbling for me, like, through the pandemic, I lost all of my team for various reasons. I let them go in six weeks, and it was like the house of cards came down, and I was in a place where I was like, I can't hire. I don't know how to hire people. I'm not hiring the right people. And I'm obviously a terrible leader because I can't keep anyone and I can't train anyone, and I can't get this right. But we have tons of work, and the work we do is good. So it took that sort of dramatic experience to really force me to look inward at my own weaknesses and try to figure out, with the help of a business coach and the help of my yoga teachers and the help of my therapist and the help of my burnout coach and everybody else I've leaned on during this time to realize that some of this stuff was easily fixed within me, changing. And my vulnerability and my willingness to release control and my willingness to learn how to trust. And so that's been our focus the last year and a half, Building a really solid, incredible team based on trust and being methodical about what we do, what projects we take. And this sounds kind of cheesy, but I'm all into this stuff. It's, like, about the energy. You know, like, does this feel good? Does this feel right? And it goes along with everything with the clients who we choose to partner with, the vendors who we choose to partner with. You know, lately, I've been telling the girls, like, there's been a few times in which a vendor sort of, like, let us down, like a mover or whatever, and I'm like, you know what? That just doesn't align with what we do. You know, not only have I had a big shift in staff, but I've also had a shift in the vendors I use.

[Alex Kaler]

I want to come back to that in a second, because I know when I ran into you in September, you told me I almost packed up my business during COVID Oh, yeah. I wasn't sure I wanted to do this anymore. Can we step back and can you tell me sort of how you got there and then how you came out of it?

[Meg Lonergan]

Sure. Well, I mean, it's like the perfect. It was a little bit of the perfect storm. I had a baby at the end of 2019, so that just stretched me thinner. My team was not functioning well. I thought it was, but now that I'm in a functioning team, I look back and think, oh, shoot. I was very generous with time and money. To everyone except myself and my family. And that only carries you so far. That actually does not work. And you find out it doesn't work until you like hit the wall. And then you think, why am I having trouble getting out of bed? Why am I so angry at this little tiny thing? Or why is this frustrating me so much? And I really fell out of love with the work. I was like, this is so boring. I can pick a drapery fabric in my sleep. It just didn't feel like a challenge, like to decorate a house, design a house, or to decorate a house. I'm like, I can do it. I felt like I had learned it all in terms of that side. I've been published. I was in an amazing book, an Andrew Martin design review book. I mean, that was a huge moment. The external things like publications and all of that were not fueling me or filling my cup. And then I had to reflect the mirror in words and figure out, do a lot of work on myself and do a lot of work on what my values are and what boundaries have I not set and what boundaries have I ignored or. And just kind of evaluate how all of that had a role in me wanting to quit.

[Alex Kaler]

Did the pandemic play a role in that too? Or how did that trigger kind of push you?

[Meg Lonergan]

It did because we went back to New Zealand March 6th of 2020 to baptize our baby for two weeks for spring break. And we lived in Asia during sars. So we were well aware of what I don't know. I was scared of COVID but I was also kind of like, we lived at SARS and Americans don't even know what SARS was like. It'll be fine. We figured we needed to go because we didn't know when we'd get back. But we thought we had plenty of time to get home if we needed to get home. But what actually happened was we went there and within like five days we had to make a decision. Do we want to get on a Covid filled plane with our 5 month old baby and 2 kids and head home to a huge city which could be the next New York? Or do we stay in this, you know, very isolated, beautiful, amazing utopic place.

[Alex Kaler]

Which was taking a very different strategic approach to Covid.

[Meg Lonergan]

Yes. So it was horrific just making that decision. And we ended up, we were fortunate to go stay at my in laws holiday home which is in. Outside of Queenstown in New Zealand. So it's in the mountains, it's beautiful and. But the rest of our family in New Zealand was on a completely different island. And New Zealand was extremely strict. So, you know, we were under house arrest. And we ended up being there for nine weeks. And my husband at that time was trading, and so his workday was starting at 1am when the markets open. So. And I was. My son would start his dyslexic tutoring at 6am and then the kids would do their homeschooling. I was nursing the baby. I would put them all down to sleep by seven, and that's when I would start to work. And I would work until 2. The baby would get up and need to eat probably at like 3 or 4. And then we'd do it all over again, starting at 5:45 for nine weeks. And I was just at the point of, like, absolute exhaustion. Zero help, zero takeaway food, zero. You know, I was like, cooking, cleaning, all of it. And my mom was like, I taught you how to do this. You could do it. I was like, I know I can do it. I just. It's very, very hard. And at that time, my staff. I had some working moms in my staff, and I had a staff member who had to cancel a wedding. Of course, that's horrible. But in hindsight, looking back, that's when I really knew we weren't a team, because it was every man for themselves. They were wanting to be paid fully with no miss in pay, but were completely unwilling to do any work. It was intense. And our projects were still going on because construction was deemed essential in Houston and in Texas. So the show was going on with some of our big projects, and when we got back, no one was really willing to work. And so because of that, I just cleaned house and I just got to a place of deep hurt. Like, I, in my mind, thought I treated everyone like family. So I just didn't really understand, you know, why everybody was at as invested as I was in terms of keeping everything going.

[Alex Kaler]

Yeah.

[Meg Lonergan]

So I let everybody go, and then I chilled for like a week or two. During this time, a dear friend of mine, Aaron Rambo, who's an incredible designer, started kind of just freelancing, helping me with my projects because he knew I was up a creek and he was sort of in between projects himself and trying to figure out what his next career move was. And so he was at sort of a transition stage in his life, and we just sort of teamed up together in this sort of, like. We laugh and joke and call ourselves like, you know, Sister Parrish and Albert Hadley, but the Texas version. But we. He just sort of Helped me on some of my projects. And. And because we're such good friends, it was just really fun. We had a project in Austin, so we were, like, driving up to Austin all the time.

[Alex Kaler]

Road tripping together. Yeah, yeah.

[Meg Lonergan]

And stopping at all the antique stores along the way. And it was actually really healing for us, both of us. And then I. The first person I hired after that, I sought out Mia, and she was the Schumacher showroom manager for 15 years. Something just came to me and I was like, I need to find her. I knew she wasn't at Schumacher anymore. She had left Schumacher kind of during the pandemic or just before. And I played telephone and called three or four people to try to hunt her down and find her. And I cold called her and was basically like, would you come work for me and help me? And she's like, I'll be there tomorrow. Wow.

[Alex Kaler]

Did you know what you needed her for or what you wanted her to do?

[Meg Lonergan]

So she had incredible, incredible industry knowledge just being. She had worked for designers, she had worked in the showroom side fabrics. She just knew all parts of the business. And I really wanted her help with all the office stuff, like the orders, invoicing, tracking orders, you know, helping me with those things. And I focused on the design part. So it was her and I for a while, and she believed in me when I didn't believe in myself and really helped me through that time, assuring me that I could do it.

[Alex Kaler]

You said before that, you know, you've approached building a team differently this time. What does it mean to work as a team to you? Now?

[Meg Lonergan]

If you'd asked me that question a year and a half ago, I have no idea what I would have responded because I literally didn't know how to work in a team. I didn't even know what that meant. I was sort of the boss making all the decisions, controlling everything, which is.

[Alex Kaler]

How so many design firms work, by the way.

[Meg Lonergan]

Yeah, yeah, it's very common. But, you know, my husband works for a big corporation, and they are very team focused. And he had said to me one time, like in an argument or something, like, you don't know how to work in a team. And I, you know, I. I remember, like, hearing that and going, oh, my God. It kind of was in the back of my mind, like, oh, my gosh, I don't know how to work in a team. And then when I'm in this position where I don't have any team members, whose fault is that? Mine. You know, my name's on the door So I hired a business coach and he has taught us all about this. And the foundation of successful and good team is trust. And without trust, you cannot function in a high level team. And you can't have trust unless you have conflict. And conflict is not a fight or an argument. Conflict is being willing to ask a question. It's suggesting another way of looking at things. It's saying no.

[Alex Kaler]

Yeah.

[Meg Lonergan]

Two weeks ago, I was on a little mini installation with my friend Aaron, who I mentioned earlier, and I really felt like I needed more help with my team there. So I had texted them, can y' all come over here and help? And they responded back, no. Like, we have deadlines and we have pressing things to do, and you're asking us to come help at, you know, two o' clock on a Friday? And they literally told me no. And that was so huge. I mean, I was so proud. I was like, this is it. Like, we are doing it. We are doing the work. Like, they are able to trust me enough to know that I'm not going to fire them if they tell me no. I was over the moon, excited, like.

[Alex Kaler]

Up a creek a little bit, but really ecstatic.

[Meg Lonergan]

Totally. And I was like, it's no big deal. I'll actually figure it out. It's fine. You know, it was a huge moment for us as a team. Huge.

[Alex Kaler]

Does it feel different for you?

[Meg Lonergan]

It does. It feels like I don't have the weight of the world on my shoulders. And it feels like the work we're putting out is better.

[Alex Kaler]

In what way?

[Meg Lonergan]

It's just more collaborative. This is not just an internal staff thing. This is also everything in my life. Like, I'm trying to do this with my clients. Like, I'm wanting to look at these projects. Like, of course, we always call it a team with the builder and the architect. Like, we're on one side of this football field and the clients are on this other side. I'm looking at it like we're all together on the field. And that same trust discussion and that same conflict discussion completely translates to the client relationship as well. And so I think the work is coming out better and smoother.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Hey, designers, I'm back with another reminder to send us your business questions for an upcoming episode of Ask Us Anything. Whether you're struggling with how to get clients to spend on art and accessories at the end of a project or looking for the financial strategies that will help you level up, I'd love to help you find some answers. If you've got a question that you'd like us to tackle. Please start the conversation by sending me an email@trade dealsusinessofhome.com.

[Alex Kaler]

Talk to me about that client experience. Part of it. How did you start to make shifts there? How did you start to approach the process differently?

[Meg Lonergan]

So that's something we're really working on right now, is establishing really ironclad processes. I've kind of organically, gradually grown them and built them over the years, but it's not something like we have like formally written down, which we're working on doing now.

[Alex Kaler]

It's all been in your head, right? This is how we work, this is what we do next.

[Meg Lonergan]

And again, it's like the weight of the world on my shoulders. It's like, what if somebody else in the team thinks that we should do it differently? Like, it's not my way or the highway, you know, it's Meg Lonergan Interiors as a firm. And this is what the firm does and this is how the firm works, and this is the values the firm has, and this is the way we approach our projects. This is the way we design our projects, and this is the way we deliver the service and the luxury and the experience for our clients. At the end of the day, I want the clients to feel like they're getting the home that they want, not that the home they were told to get.

[Alex Kaler]

How do you get there? Or what, what shifted in those conversations or in those, in that discovery process?

[Meg Lonergan]

I mean, I had a project a good year before the pandemic, maybe more. And it was just intense. It was a long project, it was a big project. And I think I was always trying to please. And I think because of that, the client didn't feel confident in my selections, that we didn't have the tension we needed, we needed conflict. We needed me to say no. We needed her to say no. We needed more of that to get us, you know, where we needed to be.

[Alex Kaler]

Yeah.

[Meg Lonergan]

And so that, that really taught me a lot. Like, you know, doing kind of roses and thorns, looking back and analyzing it and thinking about it non stop. And how can we be better for the next experience?

[Alex Kaler]

What does your team look like today? How many of you are there and how have you divided up the roles among your staff members?

[Meg Lonergan]

We have Mia, who is our mama bear. She is our office manager, procurement manager, and handles all the orders and the invoicing. And then we have two project designers, Kelsey and Melissa, who are earlier in their careers but completely capable and incredible and smart and creative and talented. I mean, they're just amazing. And we're sort of at a crossroads right now of how we're expanding and I outsource bookkeeping, we outsource our marketing and social media management also. And that just takes those things kind of off our plate.

[Alex Kaler]

Yeah.

[Meg Lonergan]

And then right now we're investigating hiring another sort of assistant role to assist everybody. Just almost like a jack of all trades, you know, kind of running samples around or jump on this install this week or go help do this this week. Just a little bit of everything. And then the guy we're in talks with is considering making a big industry shift. But the role I've sort of dreamt up for him is a role I've never had here before. And it's. I guess we're just calling it operations manager. But essentially my dream is to have all of the project scheduling and management from an upper level umbrella point of view delegated to him so that I can just be free of that pressure and more open to new opportunities and networking and the creative process and more time in front of clients. So I've spent a lot of time sort of really reviewing what I love about that. When I wanted to quit, I was like, what do I like about this job? You know, I was really doing a lot of like investigation.

[Alex Kaler]

When I feel like when you start from that point, you start from. Do I like anything about this job?

[Meg Lonergan]

Yes, exactly. I love the client part. I love being with clients. I love that part of it. I love being in homes, I love installations, I love. And I love traveling. That's such a huge, huge part of our work. And it's actually in my mind one of the things that is your biggest competitive advantage. The knowledge, your Rolodex of sources and your knowledge of what's available out there so that you're able to give that to your clients. So if my brain is so filled up with like the stress of we need to pick plumbing for this client by this date and you know, times 25, it's a lot. And I don't have as much time or space energetically to spend kind of looking forward. Like, I don't know if I can take another job or not take another job. I have no plan, you know, like, I don't know how to look forward to. I kind of can, like in my brain and in my mind, but I don't have anything like formally.

[Alex Kaler]

Yeah.

[Meg Lonergan]

Written out in a calendar or in a spreadsheet, you know, kind of showing me like, okay, you can take these two new projects, but that's it. Or. And I want someone to create that.

[Alex Kaler]

For me, I want to pivot a little bit and talk about money. And I know you said at the beginning, you know, flat fees felt so out of reach. How has your approach to billing for your work evolved?

[Meg Lonergan]

Oh, my gosh. Basically, it's like trying to throw mud at a wall and seeing what sticks. It's a real problem in the industry, honestly, because there's no standard.

[Alex Kaler]

There's strengths and weaknesses in that. Right?

[Meg Lonergan]

There really is. And it's like now I'm at a place where if I can tell someone is like, so motivated by what our fees are that they're not the right fit. Because I'm like, this relationship is so intimate. We're creating a home for you. Of course it matters what it costs, but it's me versus somebody else down the street. At the end of the day, if I charge a flat fee and they charge an hourly rate, we're going to shake out around the same price, probably. You know what I mean? So I just think it's such like when people are making the decision of who to hire and I can kind of quickly tell that it's very price driven of what they're. The information they're seeking. From me, I can tell really that that's not the best fit. I'm looking for people who want to talk about the experience of it, the process of it. I mean, it's a journey. It's.

[Alex Kaler]

Yeah.

[Meg Lonergan]

Sean Lowe always talks about, you know, when you're creating art, you don't really know what the final product's going to be. You know, you're able to create something because you've created things in the past and, you know, you're able to deliver on time and on schedule and on budget. But there's always little shifts and nuances and things and decisions that have to be made along the way that goes not as planned. And so I'm always looking more for people who can hear me out on that and understand that and can relate to that and that. And that's somebody I want to work with that really understands that we're on this sort of journey together. So lately. So we've charged in all ways, we've charged hourly, we've charged flat fees in a number of different ways. And ultimately I definitely believe in the flat fee because I just don't think anyone wants to get a bill for a phone call.

[Alex Kaler]

Right.

[Meg Lonergan]

That's just the nastiest, grossest. Like, like, really, like they don't even want to call me because they're going to get, you know, a Bill for the phone call. It feels so gross. I hate it. So the latest thing I've been doing is I've been charging a monthly flat fee for the duration of the project. I was doing bigger flat fees for, like, the design, right?

[Alex Kaler]

Like, up front.

[Meg Lonergan]

Yes, up front. The problem with that is that we have no control over the length of time in which these projects take. So if I do that, and I think that it's going to be a project that's finished in 18 months, it actually might not be finished for 36. And they're still emailing me and calling me and needing me 24, 7 for 18 months that I'm not getting paid for. So I've pivoted and I do a monthly flat fee per month. It's like a subscription service, and you have us on retainer for whatever you.

[Alex Kaler]

Need us for until the end of the project.

[Meg Lonergan]

Until the end of the project. And some months. We never see them hardly in the middle of things. And at the beginning and at the end, we see them, like, every day. And it's a lot. But I just ultimately think that it. I have enough data from all the years to really have figured this out, so I've really kind of looked at it all carefully, but I think this way feels the most comfortable for me and the most comfortable for the client.

[Alex Kaler]

How did you land on that monthly fee? Is that sort of like looking at what your flat fee for the whole project would have been and sort of breaking it down?

[Meg Lonergan]

Pretty much. You know, I got in a situation during the pandemic where there was a house that was supposed to be finished in December, but it didn't end up finishing until March. And so. And I spent an exorbitant amount of time during those months on it. And it left me feeling, like, unappreciated.

[Alex Kaler]

Yeah, I think.

[Meg Lonergan]

And. And that was on me. That was on the way that I built the fee structure. And so I realized that I'm in control of that. And this way I still feel like I'm being compensated from every month that we're working on these projects. And I think the clients like it because it's. There's no guesswork, there's no surprises. And also for them, it's predictable.

[Alex Kaler]

There's an incentive to move a little faster on their part, too, if they can.

[Meg Lonergan]

Absolutely. I'm glad that you picked up on that. That's by design. Because I'm like, an efficient person and I love these people, but I'm also thrilled when we're finished. It's Like, I get job satisfaction from completing a project, finishing it, it's done. I love you. Goodbye. Go have a huge party to celebrate. Instead of calls for months over small things trickling in, or do this or fix this, or how about these pillows instead of those pillows? And so, yeah, you're right. This sort of is a solution to that problem of projects dragging out when you're really kind of wanting them to wrap up.

[Alex Kaler]

Do you have a formal way of sort of ending the relationship? I mean, I guess there's the reveal at the end, but is there something else you're doing to say, like, cool, we're out. You don't get a bill anymore, but also, we're done here.

[Meg Lonergan]

Yeah, we do that at the installation, but I don't hold people to that fee if they're missing, like, two things that are, like, taking forever to come in. So I'm reasonable, you know, and then we just deliver it over there and kind of wrap up. And then we have a thing in our contract just about reinstating if they ever want to pick back up again. And depending on the scale of what they want done and how we can. How we can do that.

[Alex Kaler]

When did you start doing this? And have you finished a project with this system in place?

[Meg Lonergan]

So the first one I trialed this on started in August of 2020.

[Alex Kaler]

Okay.

[Meg Lonergan]

And it wrapped up December 21st, and it was fantastic.

[Alex Kaler]

Is it better for business? Is it just more profitable as well?

[Meg Lonergan]

I think it's a little bit more profitable, especially given that we're in these sort of unpredictable times and everything's taking so much longer than it ever has. Also, like, I think that there's something so much more palatable about getting, like, a four or $5,000 bill than getting, like, a 30 or $40,000 bill. It's almost psychological. Like, it just feels affordable.

[Alex Kaler]

Yeah.

[Meg Lonergan]

I still think people struggle paying for ideas, and so I think this is a way to achieve the same exact bottom line, but in just a little bit gentler way.

[Alex Kaler]

And it covers. I mean, that's covering ideas and project management to some extent, right?

[Meg Lonergan]

Yes.

[Alex Kaler]

And so depending on where you, as the client see the value, I guess you're paying for all of it either way, but maybe changes their perspective a little.

[Meg Lonergan]

Yeah, yeah. And I think. I think people aren't afraid to reach out. And they. They're just. It's almost like everybody's more respectful of each other's time in a way. They're not feeling like, oh, I paid this huge chunk of money, so I'm actually Going to have her do two schemes, you know? You know what I mean? Like, they get to the presentation and it's all so perfectly organized and perfectly put together and they think, really, I just paid that big chunk of money for that. It looks too easy. Even though they have no idea what goes behind the scenes. You know, we were agonizing over tiny details and, you know, sifted through hundreds and thousands of fabrics to get that one particular shade of celadon. But it's so far it's working out and I, I feel good about it and I feel like, I feel like from a business perspective, it's almost like the apps, like, you know, nobody's thinking twice about paying Hulu and Netflix and Disney plus and all these things. Nine, 99amonth, you know. Yeah, it's a little bit along that line of like, it's kind of like a subscription and you have a subscription to our, our service and that gives you access. It is, it gets you a key in the door. And our service ranges from helping you with some flowers for a party or a dinner or something you have to full blown installation photo shoot day, to managing all the orders in between, you know, a little bit of everything.

[Alex Kaler]

What does leveling up look like for you?

[Meg Lonergan]

So that's where that piece of the operation manager role I'm looking for really comes in. Because I don't know, okay, I want somebody to come in with that sort of type brain because I don't have it and tell me, you know, take, take all of our data, which we have tons of it and we're meticulous about keeping it. We're super organized here and using that information and creating strategic plans and then I'm hoping that provides some clarity. One of the things I've noticed lately, currently we spec all of like the plumbing, the hardware for all these new construction projects, but we don't procure them. The builder procures it all. But we literally make every selection and we're in there and we're doing all the work and the builders are the ones calling us when they're missing a knob. And that's an area in which I'd really like to just start to run under the umbrella of our business because we're already in it, making the decisions, curating it. And why are we giving those profits to a builder? I know the builder has his or her position to play, but at the same time, I think it's a big gray area in our industry right now and I think it's a big opportunity for designers to increase their profits on the projects for the work that they're doing. So that's something I'm curious about and I'm starting to investigate for next year and weaving that into our contract. And so it just seems like it's money on the table that we actually have earned that we're leaving behind.

[Alex Kaler]

When you look back, what is the one thing you know now that you wish you had known?

[Meg Lonergan]

From the beginning, I felt like I really chased publication and editorial and any kind of, you know, design awards and things like that, accolades for validation. And that does not fuel you. Ultimately, it doesn't fill your cup. You have to fill your cup. So those accolades are amazing and well deserved to all the people who are receiving them. I think they do not define anyone as a business or it doesn't make them necessarily a better or worse design firm than anyone else necessarily. You know, it's easy to, especially with social media, it's easy to get caught up in the like, oh my gosh, but they've been published here and there and. But I love my work and why did I get denied from this publication? And, you know, it's easy to get down on yourself about that. It's easy to use that as your marker of self worth in your business. And when you're a sole proprietor, you don't have like the board of directors going, don't worry, it doesn't matter. You're crushing it. You know, it's just yourself. So that's something I wish I would have learned when I was kind of younger, to just realize that, like, I got to the level of getting in that book and getting some of these magazines, and I was in Milieu magazine last summer, which was just such a thrill, but I was in such a dark place wanting to quit my business that I really couldn't even celebrate it.

[Alex Kaler]

What does success look like to you?

[Meg Lonergan]

I think success is the feeling of calm. Because this business is just a lot of highs and lows and a lot of energy and a lot of fire drills and a lot of problems all the time that we're solving and a lot of quote, unquote, emergencies that are absolutely not emergencies.

[Alex Kaler]

Yeah.

[Meg Lonergan]

And to me, I've had a good day and a successful day when I have been able to sort of maintain a level of peace within myself and not get off track or rattled from a situation or comment or a negative, you know, a negative comment on Instagram or something like that. So to me, that success is just, it's honestly mental piece for me right now. Of course, money, of course, health, of course, abundance and all of that plays a part of it. But that's what I've been really seeking lately and focusing in on as I think about what was a good day and what was a bad day.

[Alex Kaler]

This has just been so amazing and so inspiring. So thank you.

[Meg Lonergan]

Thank you.

[Alex Kaler]

That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening.

[Caitlin Peterson]

Before you go, if you'd like to.

[Alex Kaler]

Keep up with the latest design industry news or great podcasts, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com if you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share. I'd to love love to hear from you and you can email me@trade talesusofhome.com finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. Trade Tales is produced by me, Caitlin Peterson and Fred Nicholas. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you in two weeks.