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Trade Tales
Why Mandy Cheng won't delegate her firm's finances
00:57:36
Mandy Cheng on why she’s not delegating the firm’s finances, the best methods for decoding a client’s taste, and the client education document that’s transformed the way she vets potential new projects.
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- [00:03]
Mandy Chang
You know, they hired me for a reason and I need to get them out of their comfort zone a little bit in order for the two of us to meet at some design point. So how far can I push them and how do I go about that?
- [00:18]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales. We're back for season six of the show where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots and perspective shifts that come with growing a design design firm. My hope is that you hear your own why echoed in these stories, or an idea or a way of doing business that sparks your own breakthrough. I hope it helps you realize that even when times are tough, an entrepreneurship feels lonely. You're not alone. My guest today is a designer who launched her creative career in set production before discovering that transforming interiors was a perfect fit. The past few years have been pivotal for her firm, with industry accolades and high profile clients that have brought growth, but also pushed her to explore what creative expansion will look like in the years ahead. I can't wait to share it with you, but first, a quick word from our sponsor. This podcast is brought to you by Cloths, the world leader in sauna luxury. For thousands of years, sauna bathing has provided the heat we crave. With cloth saunas, you can select the exact levels of temperature and humidity to create a wide range of soothing atmospheres, from a classic Finnish sauna to a gentler, soft steam experience. When you step into a cloth sauna, you are in control. To learn more about the leaders in sauna Luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit kloftsusa.com that's KLAFS USA.com.
- [02:08]
Mandy Chang
I am the most like quintessential child of immigrant parents. You know, I'm Chinese and my parents immigrated from Hong Kong. There was just this expectation their kids were going to be a doctor or a lawyer or maybe all of the above. I was a biochem major. I had a lot of friends that were in the same program as me and I could tell like this is their thing. They know what they're doing, they really like it, they're really good at it. I can get by, but it's just not me.
- [02:40]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Mandy Chang. She left biochemistry behind and spent her senior year earning a psychology degree while doing graphic design as an intern at a marketing firm. She got married, moved to LA, and took a series of jobs in customer service, cosmetics and mortgage loan processing, all before landing a role working in production at the DreamWorks Animation Studio. Five years later, she was looking for a fresh start when the urge to reinvent herself struck again.
- [03:10]
Mandy Chang
I was like, I'm going to become a production designer. Some of my best friends at the studio, they came from film school, and they would shoot projects of their own, like, on the side on the weekends. So I would go and help them, and I really loved it. And at first, it was kind of, you know, all hands on deck. So, hey, you used to be a makeup artist. Can you do makeup for this shoot? Or, like, hey, can you help us build this set or decorate or whatever the case may be? So that was kind of how I first started getting into production design. And then when I decided it was time to leave the studio and go out on my own, I just went for it.
- [03:48]
Caitlin Peterson
The world of production design was thrilling, but it also left Mandy little control over her own schedule and quickly led to burnout. Before long, she realized it was time to find work that felt more sustainable.
- [04:02]
Mandy Chang
While I was doing all of this, I met my now husband, who is an architect. I think he recognized that I was really tired all the time, and I was really stressed out all the time, and I was always worried, how am I going to pay, you know, my bills for the next month or two? And so he suggested, you know, what about interior design? You're still going to build stuff, you're still going to design stuff, but the end use is that somebody's going to appreciate what you've done for as long as they live there until they redesign the place. And that's.
- [04:31]
Caitlin Peterson
That's.
- [04:31]
Mandy Chang
That's really nice. I think I recognized, like, oh, this is something that I can do or I can learn to do. I can work normal hours and I can have my own business. So it was obviously a scary jump, but it just seemed doable.
- [04:49]
Caitlin Peterson
In 2012, Mandy launched her design business. I wanted to talk to her about why she's not delegating the firm's finances, the best methods for decoding a client's taste, and the client education document that has transformed the way she vets potential new projects.
- [05:09]
Fred Nicholaus
What were your goals when you launched the firm, and how have they evolved?
- [05:15]
Mandy Chang
This is going to sound really bad, but I don't know how else to phrase this. I don't think I had any goals when I launched the firm. I just needed to, like, make ends meet. Like, that was the reality of it. You know, like, I hope I get a project. I hope somebody trusts me with their house. I know I'll do a good job, and I hope they pay me enough to Go buy groceries. Like, that was. That was my goal. It was not far reaching at all.
- [05:43]
Fred Nicholaus
What does that look like today for you?
- [05:45]
Mandy Chang
It's changed a lot, definitely. So I have been so fortunate to have been awarded, you know, various accolades. And I think with those comes pressure of continuing them or continuing to remain relevant and how do I go about that? So I think there's always the goal of maintaining that or becoming relevant in some other way in design and also to grow from a design perspective. You know, going back into commercial, like, I really want to do more commercial projects just to show that, you know, we are a diverse studio, we can handle a lot of things. I think that as a woman, it's harder to like, prove that to people. So, you know, the chances or the opportunities being extended to me may be smaller or, you know, less frequent. But I have high hopes.
- [06:53]
Fred Nicholaus
How did some of that acclaim and attention make you start to think differently about the studio and the work that you're doing?
- [07:04]
Mandy Chang
I mean, one, it's incredibly flattering. It's really cool because people want to work for me. And that's always really mind boggling. It always is. I mean, the fact that I have a team is mind boggling. The fact that these girls, like, you know, I mean, it's a really bizarre thought. Like if you just bring it down to the simplest form that these girls wake up every day on a weekday and they decide that they are going to spend their entire working day designing for me, that blows my mind. So I think, like, having this type of recognition kind of validates that for me in some ways. Like, okay, good. Well, at least, at least I have this award or recognition. So it doesn't seem that crazy that they're working for me. And then from like a client perspective, you know, it gives me a lot of clout. So clients, like, finally, finally trust me that if I give them some kind of design choice that maybe they wouldn't originally choose. You know, there's an element of like, okay, well, you know, it is Mandy Chang design. And it does seem like, you know what, she knows what she's doing. So I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt on this and we can go with this option. So with that kind of confidence, like coming from clients, I start to have the confidence to keep pushing that.
- [08:36]
Fred Nicholaus
Does having more eyes on the work change the way you approach the work? Is there an extra layer on top of that of like, oh, like, people will be looking at this differently?
- [08:47]
Mandy Chang
I think in the back of my mind, I always know I need to photograph this project, and I need to publish it. That is how I get more work. I don't, you know, run advertisements or anything. I'm just. I am discovered by, you know, these awards and then publications. So that's always in the back of my mind. But I don't design with that in mind at all. Like, it's very much. And this kind of goes back to, like, the psychology of it all. Who is this client? What do they want? How far can I push them? Like, what do I know I can get away with? And I don't mean that in, like, a vindictive way. I just mean, you know, they hired me for a reason, and I need to get them out of their comfort zone a little bit in order for the two of us to meet at some design point. So how far can I push them and how do I go about that? I think that's always my focus.
- [09:45]
Fred Nicholaus
What draws you to a project today? Who's the right fit for you, and who's the right fit for the firm?
- [09:52]
Mandy Chang
I think first and foremost, I need the client to be kind, and I need to feel like I'm welcome into the home, in a sense. And I say this in kind of like a broad sense. Like, there was one time where this. A client that was interested in hiring me. We did, like, a zoom call. And she talked about how during the pandemic, her home became kind of like this constant, this permanent state of chaos. Like, the dining room became the office, the living room became a gym and a playroom, and furniture kind of went all over the place. And her husband really liked it, and it just kind of has stayed that way. And she picked up on my website that a different client had left a review, saying that at times, I am, like, the therapist of it all. And this person that, you know, I met with was saying, like, I need you to be that for my husband. And I. And I was like, okay, wait, so he likes it the way that it is? She's like, oh, yeah, very much so. And I was like, okay, but you don't. She's like, no, I want the house to go back, you know, to the way that a house should be. I'm like, okay, you're not ready to hire me. I'm not ready to walk into this situation. Like, I'm not actually a therapist. I cannot talk your husband into allowing you to, you know, resituate the house to how you want it to be. So I think it's really important that everybody is ready for, you know, what I'M about to do. And then of course there's, you know, like the normal stuff, like, are we on the same page as far as budget? Are we on the same page as far as timeline? And, you know, if not, conversations can be had and those things can shift. I've had plenty of those. But I think, you know, those are kind of, those are the basics.
- [11:58]
Fred Nicholaus
When we were preparing for this call, you know, you. You spotlighted that connection you have with your clients as sort of a superpower that you bring to the design process. What does that look like for you? What are you picking up on that really impacts your work and the output of the firm?
- [12:17]
Mandy Chang
I think this goes back to the, the many lives that I've had and all the different jobs that I've had. It's really taught me how to, like, pick up on what kind of person is this? And then, like, you know, the design should follow. So if this is a young family with three kids and three dogs, and there's always people in and out of the house and you entertain a lot and you don't take your shoes off when you go into the house and your doors are always open, like, that's a very specific type of life. And I can go and design that house, but I'm not going to design that house the way I would somebody else with no kids, no dog, they love white furniture, they take their shoes off outside of the front door. So it's just like I have the ability to pick up on that very, very quickly.
- [13:15]
Fred Nicholaus
Is that a conversation then that you're having with clients? Does observation inform conversation or does it just inform output?
- [13:22]
Mandy Chang
No, we still have the conversation. Because I, you know, I could be wrong, I could be assessing the situation wrong. But I will ask that and I will allude to. It seems like you are this way. Am I reading this correctly? Are you looking for super low maintenance everything because of X, Y and Z?
- [13:46]
Fred Nicholaus
What are the most important questions you're asking clients that kind of create a.
- [13:51]
Mandy Chang
Bespoke space, I think first function and how do you live. Who all is living here? How do you use each of these spaces? And then what is your design preference? So I always encourage people to pull reference images. Even if they think their reference images don't have a through line. They always do. And sometimes the through line is for three different houses. So I'll also tell them that. But they clearly have a specific taste that they like. So kind of knowing what direction we're going in is really important. What colors they like, what colors they dislike, and I can kind of tell, you know, from their, from their reference images because they'll, sometimes they'll just pull images and, you know, we'll have a conversation about them. So I'll pull it up. We'll, you know, we'll do a zoom call, we'll do a shared screen. And I'll say, like, okay, well what do you like about this image? And they'll say, you know, I really like the shape of this table. I really like the shape of those chairs, but I hate the color of the chairs. So just ignore that. And it's kind of those like, offhand remarks that I can pick up on and realize pretty quickly, oh, they just, they hate the color purple. So it's that kind of, it's always purple, right? Purple is a very divisive color. People either love it or they hate it. And I mean, more often than not, people hate it.
- [15:19]
Fred Nicholaus
I know some of your clients are more well known than others. And in sort of that celebrity space, how does that change the way a project unfolds?
- [15:32]
Mandy Chang
I don't know that it necessarily changes it. I think the, well, unfolding maybe is different, but the way it starts is the same. It's the same conversation, right? Like it is their home and it is their safe space. So in a sense, we all live the same way. You know, we all have a place where we sleep and we have our family and we eat. So all of that, you know, those initial conversations are the same as far as how it unfolds. I think it's different for every project. Sometimes there's more people involved than just the people that would typically live at the house. So assistants or best friends that are also, you know, design enthusiasts. So you kind of get a few more opinions than you typically would. It probably affects my team more than it affects me because at the end of the day, they are probably dealing with more people and personalities because they're handling a lot of like, the day to day activities of like, being at the house. Who are they interacting with that day? Who is helping to make a decision or inserting themselves in a design question that, you know, they wouldn't typically have to answer to for a project where the client isn't a celebrity. So, like, it's there. I think, I think I've done this long enough to where, you know, if, if one of my employees mentions it to me, I kind of have learned like, I'm going to pick my battles. So, you know, you typically, I just go with it. Typically, I go with it. Sometimes I'll say Something this person doesn't live here. Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, I think it's important to. If they feel like it's important to ask a friend or ask, you know, a parent or whatever, or an assistant or business manager, like, what they think about it, that's fine. You know, just like we ask our friends. But if at some point I feel like this person who is not a designer is inserting themselves to where it's kind of challenging me to where I can't really do my job, that's when I'm going to say something.
- [17:58]
Fred Nicholaus
What is the piece that feels most essential to you? What feels non negotiable when working with a client?
- [18:04]
Mandy Chang
I'm saying this because I'm sure that vendors will be listening. I think, I mean, hands down, no exception is that I will always stand up for my team. And if I feel like anybody on my team is treated differently than I would be treated. And again, this kind of goes to like the, oh, she's AD100 or she's whatever, you know what I mean? Like, it's. It's actually Mandy coming in and talking to me. So we're going to like, give her, like, really great customer service. I kind of expect that for my entire team. And if anybody ever feels disrespected or like, talked down to as though, you know, they're, I don't know, the help, it really, really infuriates me. So, like, that is where I'll go from 0 to 100. Like, if I feel that anybody is being disrespected, I'm. I will be very upset about that. And same goes with like, subcontractors or like workers. Like, I care so much about the people that I refer to my projects. If anybody is rude to them, I get really upset.
- [19:14]
Fred Nicholaus
It's always wild to me too, that people think you won't find out.
- [19:19]
Mandy Chang
Yes, I will always find out. I will always know. They're not going to not tell me. The non negotiable for me would be if it starts to impact the overall design. So my design process is. I have like, let's just, let's say like a living room. I will render out three versions of a living room. So I'll have like my top pick, combo number one, top pick, combo number two, top pick combo number three. And I'll render those images so that the client can actually see what this living room will look like with all of the pieces that I've selected to go together. But then I'll have several pages after that. Of alternate items. So if they say, I like everything in combo two except I would like the side table from page eight instead. Great, I'll put it in there. If it works, great. If it doesn't, I'll say, I don't really like that. But if you really like it and you like the way this looks, I think I can be okay with this. However, if the client says I don't like anything, what do you think about this? And it's, you know, something from Alibaba that they found that is like obviously a knockoff of that piece and it's, you know, really cheaply made. And like, I'm not, I'm just not into it. Like, I don't want to make design decisions solely based on budget. I understand if we need to cut back in certain areas, like, especially like not the heavy hitting rooms we need to cut back on, fine. But if that is the goal for everything, then like, this isn't going to work.
- [21:03]
Fred Nicholaus
How different are those three options?
- [21:06]
Mandy Chang
Usually quite different. So I mean, an easy example of this would be if it's a couple and one person likes this style, you know, the other person likes this style and then the third style is actually what I would recommend without either of them inserting their thoughts.
- [21:24]
Fred Nicholaus
How much aesthetic alignment are you looking for from a new client or you know, what are clients coming to you saying they liked about your work that makes you more inclined to want to work with them.
- [21:37]
Mandy Chang
So I think kind of the more unique thing about my studio is that we, we really don't have a set style. Like obviously they're all my projects, so there's going to be an underlying, you know, element or few elements that are characteristic of my designs. But if you look at my website and my portfolio, I've kind of designed all over the place, like, you know, very white homes, very, very colorful homes, like all different styles, all different patterns or no patterns at all. So I think I am happy to work with a client as long as they like my work in general. If they like. I think more recently I've had the confidence in myself to just say, you know, I don't think this is the right fit. If they come to me and they say like, oh yeah, I really like your work. Here are my reference images. And I also really like these projects and none of them are mine. They all belong to maybe three design. All of the images belong to three other designers. I'm like, you should hit them up. They are very much your style. I'm happy to give you that. But I'M essentially copying people that, you know, they exist. You should just call them. So as long as they reference a project of mine, they say that they like this specific style, and it could even be like, hey, we like this project that you just did, but we're not quite as adventurous in color as you've done here. But if you dialed it back, like, 25%, we would love it.
- [23:25]
Fred Nicholaus
How do you take a project like that or, you know, a client who comes to you with that, where they're like, we actually want a little less? How do you say yes to that project but still feel like you're pushing the creative boundaries for yourself?
- [23:37]
Mandy Chang
I feel like that is pushing it in a way. You know, it's a challenge, and I think it's partly why I design all of my projects differently anyway. It always creates a challenge. Like, to constantly change things up is going to be a challenge, and it's a challenge for my team, too. And I want my team to grow, and I want my team to get that kind of excellent experience. So, you know, let's just say it's like, one of my latest projects was David and Elena, and that project, it came out on Arc Digest Digital, and I've gotten a lot of response from that. You know, we love the colors. We love the earthy palette. And in new projects that we're working on, I can reference that project, but I can say this, but different. Show me what different looks like, and it makes them have to think. So I like that challenge. And if a client comes to me and says, you know, I like David and Leia's project, but rather than earthy tones, like, give me more of, like, the blue green tones. I like that challenge.
- [24:43]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [25:30]
Fred Nicholaus
When you look back, what part of running your firm has challenged you the most as an entrepreneur?
- [25:37]
Mandy Chang
I think just the growing aspect of it. Like, internally, like, for me, I know that I need to grow. I didn't really have anybody to ask, how do I grow my business? So I'm not kidding when I say that I listened, like, especially during the pandemic. My husband and I would listen to podcasts on how people grew their small businesses.
- [26:02]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah.
- [26:03]
Mandy Chang
Just so that I would have some kind of, like, framework on how other people did it and failed or succeeded. So I think that's probably been my biggest challenge. And I finally hit a good point. But just understanding, you know, obviously to grow means to hire somebody for me to figure out when can I afford to hire somebody and then what tasks do I delegate to that person once they are on board.
- [26:31]
Fred Nicholaus
Were you solo then until the pandemic?
- [26:34]
Mandy Chang
No, I started out with part time assistance. And I want to say I started with part time assistance in 2017.
- [26:43]
Fred Nicholaus
Okay.
- [26:44]
Mandy Chang
And then about five and a half or six years ago, it got to the point where I was like, I had just decided, like, I really need a legitimate full time employee that is on payroll. So, yeah, that was about six years ago. I had one girl that was working remotely full time. And then I brought on Jamie, who is my senior designer now. She's still with me, and I kind of consider her employee number one.
- [27:12]
Fred Nicholaus
What were you comfortable delegating?
- [27:14]
Mandy Chang
Immediately administrative tasks, like the purchasing, the tracking. Like, I run a very organized business. You know, we work off of spreadsheets and just anything so that everything kind of can become a process because that's the way that my brain works. Like, I need. I need things to happen in an orderly fashion and I need every project to operate in the same way so that at any point, if project seven is at stage three, I know exactly what that is. So kind of delegating the administrative stuff was a great way to give me time to like, just really focus in on design and have somebody else take the purchasing, the tracking, the returns. Going to a job site to drop something off or go pull samples, that kind of stuff, to be able to delegate that to somebody else really opened up a lot of time for me.
- [28:17]
Fred Nicholaus
I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about who you've brought on, for what reasons and what your team looks like today.
- [28:24]
Mandy Chang
Yeah. So I have a senior designer who I mentioned Jamie. So Jamie and Lauren, my associate designer, they are both my most client facing employees. So they are kind of my project leads in a sense. So for each of my projects, either Jamie or Lauren will be assigned to that project and work on it with me. So, you know, they will meet with the clients on site. They will meet with, you know, vendors, contractors, subcontractors, walk them through things, check on stuff, drop off samples to clients. And then they also really, really help me with design, like with the quantity of projects that we have now. They, you know, they help with sourcing, they help with pulling rooms together. Obviously, everything comes back through me at the end of it. But they are heavily involved in design, so. And then I have Terry, who supports both of them. So Terry is the project coordinator. She helps with purchasing, tracking, basically any type of administrative back end coordination. She handles it across the board. And then I have Caitlin and Darina, and they are my two technical designers. So anything drawing related goes to them. And I've started to separate them. So they each have their own projects. But I've kind of learned that it's actually good for them to both be on all of the projects in some capacity, so that if, you know, one is out for the day, the other person has some familiarity with the project and they can take over. Whereas I don't feel the need to do that between Jamie and Lauren. So, yeah, two technical designers, a coordinator and two project designers.
- [30:24]
Fred Nicholaus
Who's navigating all of the operations for the firm, the bookkeeping, the accounting, the invoicing, all of that.
- [30:31]
Mandy Chang
Me.
- [30:32]
Fred Nicholaus
You didn't want to delegate any of that?
- [30:34]
Mandy Chang
No, because I grew this company very organically and I probably did this wrong, but I don't really know. I didn't have anybody to ask. I never took out any loans. I never did anything to grow my business other than to just, you know, organically grow, get to the point where I just genuinely didn't have any more time in the day. And like, I was at a breaking point. And so then I would hire another person. So because of that, I think I've just always needed. I don't know, maybe I'm a control freak. I just needed to know where I was financially, right. So for me to continue doing it just makes sense. If I delegate it to somebody else, I think I would feel very lost.
- [31:23]
Fred Nicholaus
You know, when we were talking about your early career and you know, building a coffee shop in a warehouse in two weeks, obviously there is creativity in that, but there's also a profound amount of execution and organization in that. How did some of that translate to the way that you approach project management on your jobs?
- [31:44]
Mandy Chang
That's a great question. So as a production designer, I think it's just industry standard that spreadsheets are a way of life. And so there is a. There's a spreadsheet for each of my projects that is kind of like. It's like the bible of the project. And Terry, my coordinator, handles that spreadsheet and it's always up to date, like, you know, as close to real time as possible. It's constantly changing and it's, you know, it all stems from how I ran my production design projects. So that was kind of a direct translation. And then as far as execution, I used to build sets. Like I actually, I have. We always joke that in my car at any point I have enough tools to build a house. So I know how to use power tools. I jump in at times when needed. And a lot of it is because I used to actually physically build sets alongside my team in production design. And I love that I know how to do it. It's super important to me because sometimes, you know, as a girl and I look younger than I actually am and I'm small, I'm like five, three. So if I show up to a job site, I'm not always taken seriously. And there have been times, not recently, but there have been times in the past where, you know, a contractor will just kind of start to like talk, assuming that I have no clue what they're talking about. And they might throw out technical things and they have no idea that I'm married to an architect and I've, you know, built a house alongside him and done all of these things. So me knowing what is actually happening is super useful.
- [33:37]
Fred Nicholaus
How are you keeping clients informed during that, the phase of the project that is more ordering, tracking, project management?
- [33:44]
Mandy Chang
Well, everything gets approved by them. So we're always kind of in communication. Maybe not me specifically, but Terry for example. So like even if, okay, let's let me back up. So let's just say I send over like a phase two mood board, which means like we've gone through all the heavy hitting rooms. We're now going into the secondary rooms, like the guest bedroom, the foyer, the hallway, closets or whatever. I send that over, we schedule a meeting to review it together. After they've had a weekend to review it in that meeting, we'll go over everything and then they'll approve, like, okay, I approve these four rooms. Go ahead and start pulling quotes. We'll pull quotes on it. Terry will put together a PDF of all of these quotes, send it back to the client so that they can look at everything one more time and then they approve it. So this is all kind of like written, you know, like the ability to go back in emails and say like, yes, you approved it at this point in time.
- [34:41]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah.
- [34:42]
Mandy Chang
And then once things start going through, everything gets updated in this, that, that big tracking spreadsheet. So that they can see, here's a running list of what has been purchased and things are like marked in green. It's been ordered or it's arrived at our storage facility. So, like, there's different colors and then there's a running number at the bottom of how much they've spent.
- [35:04]
Fred Nicholaus
Do clients want that? Like, I mean, I know that there's probably comfort in having it, but are they actively sort of checking in on progress or.
- [35:12]
Mandy Chang
No, I think it's there for peace of mind and maybe they'll like use it after we've wrapped the project. Because there's live links to the products in there.
- [35:25]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah.
- [35:26]
Mandy Chang
So just knowing like where this came from or like paint colors, you know, that we've selected for their cabinets, if they like, you know, want to paint something else that color. So it's really useful for that. I think our spreadsheet, like, to be perfectly honest, is such a big spreadsheet that most of my clients are overwhelmed by it. They'll just call in and ask a question. But I think it's peace of mind. It's knowing that you've hired a studio that is this organized. It really says something.
- [35:57]
Fred Nicholaus
How are you billing for the firm's work? And how are you talking to clients about money?
- [36:02]
Mandy Chang
Do I have to answer this one? I hate talking about money. This has been a really tough one for me because again, you know, I started with very, very small budget clients that they still matter and we still really want to design beautiful spaces. But as my studio has grown in order to sustain my practice, the. I guess the budget sizes also need to grow. Otherwise I'm essentially losing money. I'm paying my employees more than I'm making on a project. So, you know, there has to be a balance there as far as talking to potential new clients. I have created this packet, like a digital packet, and it talks. It's like a 37 page document and it goes through an overview of my process, typical budget ranges. And by budget ranges, I mean like a range for my design fee. So expect to pay me somewhere in this range outside of the budget that you're going to need to take on this renovation or, you know, full home decorating or whatever the case may be. So it talks about my budget range or my design fee range. And then it goes into the types of projects that I typically take. So full home renovation, ground up build, or full home decorating. And then it dives in further to each of those types of projects and it illustrates what, like, if that were your project, what the process would look like with me. So it shows you examples of renderings. It shows you an example of our tracking spreadsheet. It shows you examples of mood boards that we would. That you would get as a client and, like, you know, things that we would talk through. It would also show you examples of technical documentation that would go to your contractor or subcontractors or, you know, to a custom furniture builder. So it kind of shows you what the process looks like. And I have learned that it really shortens the amount of, like, learning time it takes for a client to, you know, you. Like, I could have five meetings with a client before they decide to hire me, because they're asking me all these questions. Or I could prepare this document, have them look at it, study it, talk it over amongst themselves, and then whatever the remaining questions are, I found those can all be answered in one last meeting.
- [38:39]
Fred Nicholaus
Do the conversations you're having with potential clients change once they've reviewed this document, or how do you feel that difference?
- [38:46]
Mandy Chang
Yes, a lot of them just disappear. Okay.
- [38:53]
Fred Nicholaus
Is that like, do you think that's budget.
- [38:56]
Mandy Chang
Yes. Scares people off? Because, I mean, we're talking about a lot of money, you know.
- [39:01]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah.
- [39:02]
Mandy Chang
What is the reality of renovating a 5,000 square foot home or something like that? You know, that's. That's a really big number. And then on top of that, you're talking about hiring, you know, my studio to oversee all of it and then any of the other trades that are involved. So we've got structural engineer and an architect and a general contractor. And then you've got landscape after that. And hey, you want to throw a pool in, because we're in California. Like, all of those things cost so much money. It's just. It's really overwhelming. And sometimes they'll come back. Like, it's just a matter of, like, we needed time to swallow this, but we're back now.
- [39:41]
Fred Nicholaus
Scream into the abyss a little bit. Save some money.
- [39:44]
Mandy Chang
Exactly. But even then, a lot of people just kind of disappear. Like, their idea of what it would cost to hire my design studio is just way far outside of, you know, what they've budgeted, which I also find kind of funny, but I don't have to explain it.
- [40:04]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, Tom, what do you mean by that? Just that people undervalue design.
- [40:08]
Mandy Chang
Yes, very much. So, like, how do you think I have a business? You know? Like, how do you think I keep employees? Like, do you just think that they're paid, you know, below minimum wage and, like, for fun? Like, we all just do this for fun. So if you think about a typical design studio where, you know, we have anywhere from two to 10 employees, and then you think about your own salary, what is the overhead for that studio and how do they maintain that? You know what I mean? Like, I am a real business, and I really do have employees that I pay fair wages to and, you know, all the other things that companies have. So it's just kind of funny when people, like, tell me, like, oh, yeah, I have a $5,000 budget to pay you. It's like, what am I going to do with that? Really? Really, what am I going to do with that? Like, if it was just me, you know, and I have my own studio all by myself, we can have that conversation, because I can figure out what can I do with this money? And it's a lot, but, like, the second you bring in taking care of another person and their livelihood is a completely different story.
- [41:22]
Fred Nicholaus
Are you billing a flat fee? Is that the range you're able to show people, or is it hourly? Or how are you approaching the studio's fee?
- [41:32]
Mandy Chang
I bill a flat fee and then a commission on purchases, and my flat fee is divided up on a payment schedule throughout the project.
- [41:42]
Fred Nicholaus
Has that always been how you worked or how did you land on that as the right kind of cadence and approach?
- [41:48]
Mandy Chang
That is how I've always worked. So when I first started to do interior design, I kind of had this little blip where my husband and I left LA to go build a house together in St. Augustine, Florida. And when I went there, I kind of was like, oh, God, what am I going to do for work? And I was approached by a company that's no longer in business. Homepolish.
- [42:17]
Fred Nicholaus
Oh, yeah.
- [42:17]
Mandy Chang
And I became one of their E designers and their platform. I can't remember if they recommended or if they just required that we, you know, that. That we bill clients as a flat fee. And the way to do it was we had to kind of calculate, like, okay, a dining room is going to take us 15 hours to design, and you just start to add up all those hours, and that's your flat fee. So I learned from that kind of like how long it actually takes me to design a space. And that's how I come up with my flat fee now, actually.
- [42:59]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. Kind of accounting for the team's time for all of that.
- [43:03]
Mandy Chang
Yeah, but I mean, it's in addition to design time.
- [43:05]
Fred Nicholaus
Right.
- [43:06]
Mandy Chang
It's also like, they have to go to the house. They have to go and, like, pull samples from a showroom and, like, all of those things and obviously there's overlap in rooms, so they might, you know, be sourcing for five rooms at the same time. So that helps in keeping the numbers down. But yeah, all that's. That's basically how I come up with my flat fee.
- [43:26]
Fred Nicholaus
How are you presenting that to clients? What are you talking to them about what that fee kind of represents or the service that they should expect from the firm for that fee?
- [43:36]
Mandy Chang
So that's where that initial deck that I was talking about, that 37 page deck, really comes into play. So at that point, they know what they're going to be getting from me. And it's a pretty hefty amount of, I guess, hand holding. In a sense. We are a full service studio. So we walk you through everything and whatever you're not involved in, it's still something that has to be done and we handle it. So at that point, they should have a pretty good understanding of what they're going to get from my studio. And then as far as my fee goes, I think maybe half the time I get the question of like, well, how did you come up with this? But that explanation is already in the deck. You know, I explain, like, I come up with the number of hours and it's like a conservative number of hours that I come up with to design this space. And in addition to that, everything that goes along with it all the way through to giving you a move in. Ready Home. So it's pretty black and white at that point. You either are okay with it or you're not.
- [44:42]
Fred Nicholaus
What are the kind of the last steps then before signing that contract and the client saying yes and you saying yes?
- [44:48]
Mandy Chang
I don't think it's like a. There's not like a ton of fanfare. It's just like a, okay, we're ready to move forward. And, you know, have you closed escrow or how are you going to go about this? Like, are you ready to move out now? Do you want to stay there while I work through the design process with you? And it's not until we pull permits that you move out. It's kind of, you know, just the logistics of it all.
- [45:15]
Fred Nicholaus
Was there anything specific that you did to level up your clientele? Like, what was it about your approach that helped you make that leap?
- [45:26]
Mandy Chang
I don't think I specifically did anything. I think, you know, first being awarded AD100 was like the biggest, like, pivoting point for my studio thus far. Like, the first time I got it, all of a sudden I. It's just like the recognition and kind of like, the. I want this designer to design my house, and to have somebody make the effort to seek me out typically means that their budget is healthier than anybody I've had previously. So I didn't specifically do anything. I definitely owe a lot to, you know, this type of recognition that I have, the clients that I have. And, I mean, I definitely. I don't take that for granted.
- [46:24]
Fred Nicholaus
Was that. Was that truly, like, an overnight thing? Like, you wake up one morning and the phone calls that come in are.
- [46:29]
Mandy Chang
A little different, sort of. Yeah.
- [46:31]
Fred Nicholaus
That's wild.
- [46:32]
Mandy Chang
To live through it. Yeah. I mean, that's why there's still, like, these moments where I'm like, you're willing to work for me. It's just, you know, it wasn't that long ago, and the thing is, like, not that much has changed about me. So it's just the fact that now people are willing to give me the time of day, like, that's wild.
- [46:59]
Fred Nicholaus
Beyond the AD100, beyond kind of that list piece of it. I know press is a really big part of how you communicate your firm's work. How do you think about the entire media and social media landscape? How is that shaping the way you photograph, share, talk about the projects?
- [47:25]
Mandy Chang
I would say the only time that it really comes to the forefront of my mind is when we're actually photographing. So I'm there with my photographer. We're lining up a shot. In that moment, I might think, if this were to get published, is this the right angle for the shot? You know, and, like, I think back to all of the magazines that, you know, I've looked at all of the images because there was a point in time where I was like, I don't know, probably using a crappy camera and photographing my projects myself. And, like, in order to do that, I needed to study other magazines and see how people were lining up their shots. Like, you know, what was their field of view, all that kind of stuff. So because of that, I kind of in my head, have this archive of, you know, various camera angles that I like, ways that rooms are lined up, or, like, how close of a shot do I like, and how much of the sofa do I like to see? So in those moments with my photographer, I might think of it, but other than that, I really. I really don't.
- [48:38]
Fred Nicholaus
How are you thinking about kind of that, those costs of doing business for you?
- [48:43]
Mandy Chang
It's just a necessary part of it for me. Again, I don't pay for marketing and advertisement in digital publications or anything like that. So, like, this is my marketing fee. It's just. It is what it is. Every year when I look at my budget, I always put aside X amount to make sure, you know, photography for the year will be covered. For all the projects that I am forecasting to close in that year, it's the most important thing, like, otherwise, like, what did I do all this work for? How am I going to get another project if I don't show another project?
- [49:19]
Fred Nicholaus
Do you encounter clients who don't want their home photographed?
- [49:23]
Mandy Chang
Yes, I do. I say that with so much sadness. Yeah. And I have been fortunate that most allow me to photograph them. In this past year, I've only come across one and I still have high hopes. Maybe they're not that high anymore. I have medium hopes that they'll let me come in and photograph it. Clients have kind of a funny idea that if their home is published that suddenly everybody is going to know that it is their home. They're going to figure out the exact address and that, I don't know, weirdos are going to show up and, like, appear in your living room, sitting on your sofa when you come downstairs in the morning. And I understand feeling very exposed and vulnerable with your project being out there, but the reality is, like, how many projects are being published all over the world every day? And how many of those projects do you care about beyond when you stop and admire that image? Nobody cares where your house is where, like. No, nobody cares. But I understand if you're not used to having your space, you know, out in the open like that, that it feels very vulnerable. So, yeah, it's a really, really, really huge, huge bummer to me when a client doesn't allow me to photograph their project. It's actually I'm allowed to photograph the project if they tell me they want that removed. I have to, like, have a conversation with myself on whether or not the project is worth it.
- [50:59]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. Are you doing your own social media or how have you approached that piece of kind of telegraphing the visuals of the firm's identity?
- [51:10]
Mandy Chang
Up until recently, I have been doing my own social media and I still do. I do have my friend Haley. She's kind of a whiz with branding and marketing. I just brought her on to help me with social media. A lot of it, though, is because I think just for, like, my own mental health, I can't be on social media that much. Like, I. It's. It's a time suck. It also kind of, I've noticed at times can, like, pigeonhole my creativity in, like, how I take on a space. So it's good for me to step away from that. But to know that, you know, for business reasons, the account is still moving is important.
- [51:56]
Fred Nicholaus
Where do you see the most opportunity for you and your firm when you look ahead?
- [52:02]
Mandy Chang
I'm really hopeful for jumping into the commercial space. Like, my dream is a boutique hotel. You know, a lot of my projects. Well, all of my projects, in a sense, they all tell kind of a story. So the idea of being able to. Every room, like, in my ideal project, every room is a little bit different. You know, they all tell a different story, but there's. It's all part of the same book. So being able to have a space like that would be just so cool. Such a cool project. It's. It's what I'm manifesting. It's what I'm putting out there for 2025.
- [52:40]
Fred Nicholaus
Can we also talk about lighting or not yet?
- [52:43]
Mandy Chang
We can. We totally can. I'm so excited.
- [52:45]
Fred Nicholaus
So you have a line coming out with Hudson Valley Lighting Group in January.
- [52:50]
Mandy Chang
Yes.
- [52:51]
Caitlin Peterson
How did that come about?
- [52:52]
Mandy Chang
So I don't really know. I think they just reached out to me. I think it was just like, an email showed up in my inbox of like, hey, we're, you know, we collaborate with designers for some of our lines, and we're interested in collaborating with you. Do you want to put together some ideas and see if we could work together?
- [53:14]
Fred Nicholaus
Did you have, like, a language of lighting already that you were like, oh, I wish this existed? Like, did you know immediately what you wanted that to be?
- [53:22]
Mandy Chang
No, but I will say that over the last several years, I had been approached by, you know, various vendors in different capacities, like, do you want to collaborate on, you know, making something like this? And I turned them all down because they just didn't feel authentic to my brand. And I've always thought to myself, if I were to come up with a product, like, I would want at least the initial products to be architectural. Like, I want them to be something permanent to some degree. It's, like, attached to the structure. So, like, whether it be plumbing or lighting or cabinetry or something of that realm, that was always much more of a goal to me than furniture.
- [54:13]
Fred Nicholaus
For example, come January, this launches. What are your expectations or what are your hopes for what that line becomes?
- [54:21]
Mandy Chang
I hope that it resonates with, you know, the general public. Like, regardless of where you live, it's a line that, you know, the material and the textures of the line are very much inspired by nature. I was at High Point recently, and I Was talking to another designer, a friend of mine, Nas. And Nas's line, you know, it's. It's jewelry inspired, and it's very, very beautiful and stunning. And she's like, I just want you to admire it from afar. And I was like, oh, I want people to touch my, my lights. And she thought that was hysterical. And it's just because, you know, like, there's like woven textures, there's linens, there's jute fabric. Like, it's. It's all of these textures that are very much inspired by nature and being outdoors. You know, for the majority of my teenage to adult life, I've lived in California on the coast, and being outdoors is, you know, a big part of living out here. So it makes sense that my line, you know, kind of reflects that. So, yeah, I'm really, really excited for it.
- [55:33]
Fred Nicholaus
What does success mean for you today?
- [55:36]
Mandy Chang
I think I have it.
- [55:38]
Fred Nicholaus
I like that.
- [55:39]
Mandy Chang
I feel very successful. I'm sure that my studio will continue to grow. But I mean, as it stands, I'm in a situation that I really don't think I ever thought I would be in. To have as good of a team as I have, because that was another thing is that I would hire people that really had no business working in interior design. But in my mind, it was like, this is what I deserve. This is as good as I deserve to have.
- [56:05]
Fred Nicholaus
In the early days.
- [56:06]
Mandy Chang
Yeah, exactly.
- [56:06]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah.
- [56:07]
Mandy Chang
So now that I have people that, like, actually have design degrees or like some type of interest in interior design, even, like, it's wonderful. I have a really nice life. I work incredibly hard. I work, like, nonstop. I even dream about work. That's probably not healthy, but as far as just, you know, the idea of success to me is to have this business that I really never dreamed I would be allowed to have, and to have a team that's willing to help me with it is amazing. And then on top of that, you know, to be recognized for it, it's all pretty mind blowing.
- [56:47]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening.
- [56:51]
Fred Nicholaus
Before you go, if you'd like to.
- [56:52]
Caitlin Peterson
Keep up with the latest design industry news, more great podcasts, check out new products, or browse job openings. Head on over to businessofhome.com if you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me at Trade tales, business of home.com. finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show Trade Tales is produced by me, Caitlin Peterson with Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you again in two weeks.