← Trade Tales
Trade Tales
Yates Desygn on the course correction that saved their team
01:00:28
Bryan and Mike Yates of Dallas-based firm Yates Desygn on the low-overhead approach that got their business off the ground, the business consultant that inspired them to transform their firm’s structure, and how they’ve strategically created curriculums that outline pathways to growth for the members of their team.
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- [00:03]
Mike Yates
Being ready is a myth. You start, you suck. You figure it out, you get better.
- [00:12]
Caitlin Peterson
Hi, I'm Caitlin Peterson, the editor in chief of Business of Home. Welcome to Trade Tales, where I'll be talking to interior designers about the challenges, pivots, and perspective shifts that come with growing a design firm. My hope is that you hear your own lie echoed in these stories, or an idea that sparks your own breakthrough.
- [00:33]
Caroline Burke
I hope it helps you realize that.
- [00:34]
Caitlin Peterson
Even when entrepreneurship feels lonely, you're not alone. My guests today are a design duo who discovered at the height of their firm's success that their team's morale was at its lowest. They explain how that realization prompted an internal overhaul, setting in motion a structure that amplifies each employee's strengths.
- [00:57]
Caroline Burke
I can't wait to share it with you.
- [00:59]
Caitlin Peterson
But first, a quick word from our sponsor. This podcast is brought to you by June laloy. The Total Home brand just debuted its spring collection, which features over 100 new designs leaning into vintage revival influences. The collection leads with lush, saturated colors, and its wide selection of furniture fabrics includes a spectrum of rich velvets. There are even more great finds across categories like rugs, furniture, lighting, and Decor. Head to JuneMalloy.com today to discover designs that bring your projects to life with a partner that is backed by more than 20 years of trade expertise. That's j o o n lo l o y dot com.
- [02:06]
Brian Yates
Well, I always grew up in a creative household. I had the creative freedom and the support from my parents to do what made us happy. And my parents were always a big advocate of you. Follow your passion and the money will come. Grew up in South Texas. I decided to go to Texas Tech for undergrad. I studied landscape architecture. From there, I practiced for a little bit. I was in Houston at the time, and I was working on this project where we were doing an island off the Bahamas. I just kept going back and really being fascinated with this blurred line between what is landscape architecture and what is interiors, and then decided, you know what? I want to get a master's in interior design. And so I did a bunch of research and figured out, hey, I want to go to Pratt.
- [02:58]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Brian Yates. He soon packed up and moved to New York, where he thrived in Pratt's program. Before long, he secured a dream design gig at Yaboo Pushelberg. And then he met someone who would change the course of his life and career.
- [03:15]
Brian Yates
Mike and I met the night they passed gay marriage in New York State. We had a mutual friend, and our friend was like, I'm going to be at this bar to celebrate. And I said, well, I don't have plans and let's meet up. And so we did. And I remember talking to Mike for just two seconds, Just saying hi. And I remember leaving that bar, saying, I don't know how or what, But I know I will know him for the rest of my life.
- [03:41]
Caitlin Peterson
Brian's intuition was correct. And as he would soon learn, his new acquaintance also had a design background, Just with a slightly different journey into the industry.
- [03:53]
Mike Yates
I grew up in hawaii. I was born and raised my family as a heavily military. Mom and dad were marines. So I moved to Arizona Just to go to arizona state university as an engineer. I got into this cohort program where we all stayed in a room and the teachers came to us. It was this new thing that they were trying. And so I had engineering class, math, sciences, physics, all that. And it just started overwhelming me. My friend actually wanted to go take a hip hop class on a Tuesday. He's like, let's do this. And I said, you know what? I'm going to do this so I can learn a few moves or two. And so I started taking this class on Tuesday. And I noticed that every day on Tuesday I was waking up very excited. And for some reason my brain said, why not do this every day? And so I walked into my advisor's place and I said, I want to switch majors. She said, you're aerospace science right now. Do you want to do mechanical or electrical or bio? And I said, I want to dance.
- [04:50]
Caitlin Peterson
That's Mike yates. After his surprising pivotal, he soon found himself pulled to another side of the dance world.
- [04:59]
Mike Yates
I took a dance production course. Our first assignment was to create lighting design based off of a song that we picked. I ended up picking Janet jackson. If I had so much fun hitting all the beats and making the lights dance on stage. And I just got hooked. And so I applied to arizona state as well, but on the theater side to do performance design. One of my history courses, I saw a piece called piazzolla caldera by Paul taylor. It is wonderful kind of sexy tango music. His whole movement was just. It took my breath away Right then and there watching, I was like, I'm going to move to new York and I'm going to work for that company and I'm going to do it in less than 10 years. And I did it in seven.
- [05:40]
Caitlin Peterson
In New York, he met and eventually married Brian, who was still working at yahoo. Pushelberg. But Mike was traveling a lot and Brian was thinking about the next step in his career. Together they began to envision a life at the helm of their own business and started thinking about where they could go to make it happen.
- [06:01]
Brian Yates
I remember just one night looking at each other and saying, why are we here? New York is amazing. I never thought I would leave. Mike was like, we're not enjoying being here anymore. I travel all the time, I live out of a suitcase and you work all the time. What are our next steps? What do we want to do? Once we got married, we kind of really just pulled the trigger and jumped, quit both of our jobs, jobs, leave New York, move across the country, start a firm. Not have a single connection, not have a single client, not have a single job lined up. We moved there and lived off our savings and, and just started running.
- [06:40]
Caitlin Peterson
It was 2016 when the pair moved to Dallas and launched their design firm. I wanted to talk to them about the low overhead approach that caught their business off the ground, the consultant who inspired them to transform their firm's structure and how they've strategically created curriculums that outline pathways to growth for the members of their team.
- [07:06]
Caroline Burke
In the beginning, how did you start to look at your respective experiences, your respective kind of areas of expertise and map out the roles and responsibilities of running this firm together?
- [07:20]
Brian Yates
I think we're completely different than when we first started.
- [07:23]
Caroline Burke
Okay.
- [07:24]
Brian Yates
I think we have grown a lot and we've done the work to do that. Listen, I will say our first year was not easy. You know, being married for the first time, being starting the company together, us being really passionate also sometimes means we're both very hot headed. And I think it was understanding what our rhythm was. And I think that that was really important to us to figure out how to define what our lanes are. Obviously we both own the company and it becomes blurred, but I think it was really important for us to sit down and really map out what each role was and what we were going to contribute to the business and how. And I think once we did that, it became a really nice smooth sailing of really feeding off each other. And then we became an asset to each other as far as how we met with clients, how we went for interviews for new projects, how we met with vendors and reps. And I think, you know, that just really helped us to really get going.
- [08:33]
Caroline Burke
How long was it before you did sit down and define those roles?
- [08:36]
Brian Yates
I would say in the first three months.
- [08:38]
Caroline Burke
Okay, so you knew immediately we have to kind of level set with one another about where we're going to take this business and run with it.
- [08:46]
Brian Yates
I think for us, it's always about being intentional. And it's important to really establish expectations. And I feel like us creatives really can kind of swerve on the lanes, you know, a little bit to get to the path that we need to. But when we set the right expectation, it just makes all the deliverable that much easier. And I feel like that's kind of the way that our mentality has always been. We just didn't know how to define it as much until we really had to. Right.
- [09:20]
Caroline Burke
What does that look like?
- [09:22]
Mike Yates
Defining the roles for me was about. I was coming at it from a, you know, production aspect. You know, we have a show at this date, which means I load in here, which means I travel on this date, which means we have to, you know, rehearse this much. And then I have to get the lights and the cues and the plate. And so it was like working backwards. And so I was trying to bring that kind of process into our structure. And to do that, in my eyes, I was like, okay, I'm going to handle all of this back end and you work on the design. You make it look beautiful and perfect and take care of the client that way and I'll just take care of everything else so that you could focus on that. And for me, it was almost trying to problem solve throughout and I still to this day can't figure it out, but trying getting a little better every time on. On how to make this work. Being that everybody in the industry, from vendors and our friends and clients and builders and all of it, they all do it differently. And so how do you work in an environment that is always changing and always answering different questions in different ways? And for me, it's a continued. It's a continued challenge that keeps me interested.
- [10:42]
Caroline Burke
Yeah.
- [10:43]
Mike Yates
And keeps me. Keeps me going. And I kind of equate it to a little bit of my lighting design background, where I Learned from over 10 different lighting designers over my years how to do lighting design. And so I can take a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and I kind of made my own style. And so I'm kind of doing that and then just kind of updating our process, updating our. Our way of working with clients. Oh, we forgot to ask that question. Put that in the questionnaire. Make sure we. Make sure we look at that, those kind of. Those kind of things. Just always looking to improve ourselves. Because I. We're not perfect, but we, we want that person to have that experience. Brian likes to say all the time, this person's investing all of this Money into an idea. In a sense, you can go out and test drive a car, and you sit in it, you drive it, you feel it, you touch it, and you know, okay, I'm. This. This car is worth $250,000. Trying to get somebody to spend that kind of money without being able to really touch and feel and experience it, that's. That takes a lot of trust.
- [11:52]
Caroline Burke
Whose responsibility is that of the two of you to cultivate that trust? Or where are you showing up to the client separately and where are you showing up together?
- [12:02]
Brian Yates
I think it all starts with our team. Before any client comes through those doors and hires our firm, it starts with our core. And I think for us, that's just super important to make sure that we have that down to us. It's. It's. We've really worked on, you know, how do we make us happy? How do we make our team happy? How do we create an environment that really cultivates growth and design and celebration?
- [12:32]
Mike Yates
For me, it comes from my dance background. So with production, I was working at Richmond Ballet, and they would provide lunches for the production crew. That way you didn't have to run out, spend money, then run back, and you retired, and the morale was really good. They ended up taking that away to save a little bit of money, and it just kind of killed the morale. And ever since then, for me, morale and creativity are number one. And so for me, as a. As a leader and a boss, I wanted to always create an environment in which inspiration and creativity can happen. I read a book by Twyla Tharp called the Creative Habit, and she talks about creating a discipline in your. In your life, in your daily life, to be ready for the moments of inspiration and creativity. And so it's a process. Yeah.
- [13:21]
Caroline Burke
What does that look like in your firm, though? Like, is it. Is it free lunch for the design team? Or, like, what is the version of that that you use in your firm to kind of create that foundation for everyone?
- [13:34]
Brian Yates
Well, first of all, I think it's being supportive. It's coming with a really great benefit package. You know, we give our team their vacation or their time off, but we also give holidays, all the bank holidays. We give two weeks paid vacation to a team during Christmas and New Year's, which we find to be, you know, the best. Everyone really enjoys that because they come back so refreshed and creative because they've traveled. And so how can we make sure that you're 100% taken care of and you're happy? And I think one thing that we do that has been really beneficial is we have these, what we call onetoo every month, and we really sit down and we send them a questionnaire and we have them answer it and then we it and we talk about those together, where we really talk about their answers and then we follow up with answers on ourself, like based on them as an employee. And that has been really helpful because it really gets us to understand what they're passionate about or what they're looking to want to do within our firm or what they're really excited and proud of what they've done. And so that's been really beneficial for us too.
- [14:53]
Mike Yates
For me, part of that too is establishing expectations for our team. We have curriculums and pathways that we're building with them. And Brian and I put together, this is what a juju designer looks like. These are the skills that we expect you to start with, and these are the skills we expect you to grow into to then become a associate designer, to then grow into a senior designer, to then grow into a team lead. And all through that, that establishes this is where you're at and this is where you can go. This is your path. Within our company, within that, we want to know what else are you interested in. Production management, site management, project management. Are you rendering. One of our, one of our employees right now, Andrew, he is very interested in architecture and he just found out about, or he knew about a conference in Texas that they put on every year that's all about architecture and materials for exterior buildings and all the new stuff that comes out. And so I'm like, great, I'm going to send you down there and you're going to, you research everything, get everything, collect all the information, bring it back to us and tell us all about it. So he's really excited to do that. And so it's creating this environment of exploration, of inspiration and curation. Those are. That's a pillar of ours that we really want to dive into, that we truly think is important for our people to be passionate about this industry and bring these ideas that have never been created before. And for me, that environment of creativity and inspiration is so important. That's why we have the studio we have and how we designed it. We've been in 60 square feet or whatever it was some ridiculous small space sharing with some people for a very long time.
- [16:36]
Brian Yates
We believed in keeping our overhead as low as possible for as long as possible. As we're building the company, I think it was just really important to be wise with our money and so that's exactly what we did. And then once we started building up momentum, we saw the need for a studio. But what we really wanted to create was something that felt like an experience. And so it's a good way for our clients to see little bits and pieces of things that might be really important to us, like lighting. Lighting is extremely important. So we have a Lutron system in our conference room and half of the office that we can sit down and really show that circadian rhythm and. And show that we could take, you know, lemons on the table and make them oranges and, you know, show that the draperies can be pushed a button and the track, you know, brings the shade down and the drapery slides out. You know, those are things that are really important that we don't want to have to necessarily take our clients to instead of going necessarily to a bunch of showrooms, which we do a lot of showroom visits. However, we believe in not taking the clients. You know, we're here to have them be hyper focused on what we're trying to present instead of meandering through a showroom that might change the trajectory of what we're trying to achieve. You know, we've done all the upfront work that you can see here versus taking you there.
- [18:04]
Caroline Burke
Can you take me back for a moment? You move and you launch the firm. 2016.
- [18:10]
Brian Yates
Correct.
- [18:10]
Caroline Burke
When did you start to expand and what were sort of the external markers you were looking for that let you know that it was time to start hiring, that you were ready for a studio, that you had the work to sort of support this bigger version of the firm?
- [18:27]
Brian Yates
Well, when we first started, you know, for us, even though I've worked on a bunch of amazing projects, nothing was beneath us. We did everything that we could to get our name out there and go to places, but we were able to work a deal out with a builder. He had an extra room in his studio, his office, and so we ended up renting that out for pennies, basically. I think we had to give them a couple of free hours a month to really, you know, subsidize the rent. So we did that. And then we actually brought an employee, 2020. So she started in January, I think, six or whenever, you know, right after.
- [19:09]
Caroline Burke
Solid months of work then. And then it got crazy.
- [19:12]
Brian Yates
And I remember Covid hitting, and she was like, had that look of fear on her, her eyes. And Mike all of a sudden says, do not worry. Nothing is going to happen to you. And we already had that kind of savings going because we believe in being financially set, which doesn't mean perfect at all. But we knew that we had the ability to pay her for a little bit, you know, like at least a couple of months, which I think was great. And then, you know, like everyone else's story with COVID it was like, we're going to have to run, right? You're not. You're not leaving. We're running at this point. And so that's just kind of what happened. And she was with us for four years, which was amazing and helped our. Helped our business and helped us grow.
- [20:05]
Mike Yates
And yeah, it was. It was 2020. It was actually 2019. And we had been working with a builder and one of another builder in the area was looking to join this franchise. And with that, you have to get rid of your interior design. And he was a design builder. And so it was very organic. And so when he kind of told us, hey, we're going in this path, this is an amazing, talented designer. I think you should meet with her. And I mean, it was instant. We knew, we saw. And I. It was just amazing for her to join our team. And Brian was right. I. I left her dead in the eye and said, you're not going anywhere. We need help. We have projects. Don't worry about it. We got you. And we just kept working together. And she was by Brian's side pretty much six months every day. Whatever he did, she was there. And she was just the type of person that could learn through osmosis, I think, and she just picked it up quick. And her creativity was just phenomenal. And it was just. It started growing and then from there, we needed another person.
- [21:13]
Caroline Burke
When you started building out that team, when you went from two to three, you have a team, I think, of the two of you, plus four. How did that start to shift your roles within the business? Or how did it clarify what your roles were going to be and how do you see those roles today?
- [21:31]
Mike Yates
Well, I think it clarified that we were not ready. The scaling of it, when you're three people and you're in a smaller room, you just know what's happening. Right. You are in charge of the projects. You are on top of each other. You are looking out for each other.
- [21:51]
Brian Yates
And the good, the bad, the ugly, right?
- [21:53]
Mike Yates
Yeah. And. And you knew how much you could work on. The three of you worked on, you know, one project at a time. You could span it out. You can kind of control that. When we started growing bigger and bigger, overhead goes up, you take on more projects. Brian gets split in multiple different ways. I'm trying to organize different timelines with builders and installs. And, I mean, everything just started going chaotic. And the way that it used to work doesn't work anymore. The whole what got you there won't get you there kind of mentality. And I always go back to the moment that I think really changed our business was in 2023. We had one of the great, one of the best years. Financially, our team was miserable, and I consider that a failure.
- [22:41]
Caroline Burke
How did that start to show up? Or how do you start to realize that that's not sustainable? The way that they're working isn't sustainable?
- [22:48]
Brian Yates
Well, I think, you know, being in one room, you know, we were five people at the time, then we lost one, and then we lost another one. And then, you know, then, you know, our senior designer left. That had been with us for four years. And I think it was a good way for us to sit back and. And take ownership for letting it get the way it got. And it wasn't a bad thing, but it wasn't a good thing. And, you know, one thing that we did, I think that was really great, is we believe in getting help. We believe that we can't do everything. You know, I always think of interior design as the conductor of the orchestra, bringing in the best of the best, you know, to help to create a beautiful piece for a client. And I think that's exactly what we ended up doing in this situation is, you know, we brought in a business consultant, and the best thing that we did was have him sit down with our senior designer that left and our procurement person that left and really interview them as an exit interview on why. And from there, we took all of that information and we just tried to change who we are in the way that we run a team.
- [24:06]
Mike Yates
But what we did by doing that too, is we included the team that was left, and we said, this is what we heard. This is what we're seeing is going come in. These are our ideas to fix this. What are your ideas to fix this? And then together we create a plan to then say, okay, this is how we're going to be working moving forward. And I think investing into our team is where we really then that it just started to change everything on how we make decisions, on the type of work that we take, the expectations that. That we're giving each other, and the accountability. Everybody feels they're part of the business, that they have a say when something's coming up. Hey. Saying, hey, I've noticed this in the office. Can we talk about that, and then in the next production meeting, it's a line item agenda, and we go through a process in which we ask, okay, what's the problem? What are we trying to get to as a solution? And then working together, what is that solution?
- [25:09]
Caroline Burke
What did those exit interviews surface and how did you start to make changes? What were some of the concrete things that you realized you could shift to really change the way your team functioned?
- [25:23]
Mike Yates
I think it was really clarification of people's roles. And when we first started, Brian wanted everybody to do everything in a different capacity at different projects so that they would learn and be more well rounded.
- [25:40]
Brian Yates
As a designer, that sounds so noble.
- [25:42]
Caroline Burke
In theory and so difficult to track on paper.
- [25:45]
Brian Yates
Is that. Well, that's what we found out.
- [25:48]
Mike Yates
Yeah, that's what we found out. Exactly. And so it just became like, what am I on this job? And, like, which hat am I wearing on that job? And where are we at in the process of this job? To where people were getting frustrated, things were, you know, not happening. Hey, I asked you to do that. Oh, I thought you were going to do that. You know, all these things. And I think that's where it was. It was clarification of job roles.
- [26:08]
Caroline Burke
Yeah.
- [26:09]
Mike Yates
And so.
- [26:10]
Brian Yates
And setting the expectations from that for, like, from that day on, I feel like we have been very deliberate on setting the expectation. And learning from our team has helped to just traject what we do for our clients, which has been fantastic.
- [26:26]
Caroline Burke
I want to go back to, you know, Brian, I feel like you were talking about kind of being in the trenches in the design on every project. Mike, how has your role shifted?
- [26:35]
Mike Yates
I think my role is shifting from the actual doer, where I used to send out the invoices. I used to talk to the client about, you know, time building when they had questions or issues.
- [26:47]
Brian Yates
The IT person.
- [26:48]
Mike Yates
The IT person, you know, everything else, you know, ordering the snacks, ordering this, the charcuterie plate for the clients that are coming up, organizing the calendar, you know, everything that I was the one running to, to the point in which everybody was call, Mike or, hey, Mike, this is wrong, or, hey, Mike, this is this. And, you know, I. I was the problem solver, which, you know, for me is a little bit kind of exciting because I feel, you know, wanted and needed at the same time. I also became the enabler. Right. You know, I'll just take care of this.
- [27:18]
Brian Yates
Well, to the point where everyone's like, I need a mic.
- [27:20]
Mike Yates
Yeah. To where I think my role now is working with my business coach, is taking that and and empowering our team to kind of take the lead and take the roles. Hiring for those positions through the third party with a bookkeeper and you know, just finding these things that people are experts at, these jobs in which they can do it at a way better rate and efficiency than I can, which then releases that time for me to become more of the CEO and the business development side of things and the exciting things that I actually do enjoy networking and connection building such as the CNEXT trip that we just went on. I mean that's exactly the type of stuff that I love and that I want to do and that's where I think I'm kind of trying to push. But to do that, the processes and the implementations all need to be in place. So people come into our business knowing exactly how things are run and they can just make it better.
- [28:22]
Caroline Burke
Who's client facing then? Is everybody in the firm client facing?
- [28:26]
Brian Yates
Everyone's client facing?
- [28:27]
Mike Yates
Everyone has that opportunity but again in a specific way. So Brian is definitely the design client facing. Anything design wise can go directly to him and, or the team lead, which is Georgina, she mainly works on that project. Dustin is operational calendar client facing. Hi, I'm Dustin. I'm going to work with you to schedule this meeting with them. These are the times that are available. These are the things we'll be bringing to your, to that meeting. These are the things we need you to bring to that meeting. If you have any money questions, that's where I come in. That's the, that's I'm the client facing when, hey, what is this going to cost? Hey, what is this, you know, question about timing over here? So there's depending on what questions you have, there is a specific person but you get told that very upfront and very kind of specifically so, you know.
- [29:17]
Brian Yates
We used to think of the pyramid in our firm of hierarchy and we really have this year changed that because I can't wrap my head around a high up person and then it tearing down to different tasks. Right. And so we did our two weeks instead of traveling for the holidays. We sat down and just dove into our business and really tried to figure out ways that what are our pillars, what are our, you know, where are we going, what are our goals, what are we wanting to do? All of this stuff and we just had this epiphany and came up with the idea of like almost a DNA strand. Right? You need all of these components to be interlinked and glide together for it to be successful. And that's how we kind of have shifted from doing the pyramid structure. It's all about bringing in, like, a web. Yeah, it's all about this design web. And it's bringing in people that are great at their craft that can enhance how we do things. Right. We have Andrew in our office that is amazing at 3D renderings and construction documents. And Mariana is really great at construction documents in design and project management. And then Georgina, who's our senior designer, is, like, really great at fabrics and colors and furniture and design. And then, you know, we have Mike, myself. And then Dustin's really great at just client relationships and getting things done. Getting things done. He is like a check marker, like, to the nth degree. And I'm so bad at that and.
- [30:54]
Mike Yates
Reminding me, hey, we have to do that.
- [30:58]
Brian Yates
You know? And so to us, it's. It's all about this design web that we have created in our. In our office to really make sure that everyone is kind of gliding together to design. You know, not everyone might work on the same project at the same time, but everyone has a hand in it. At a certain part within a project.
- [31:19]
Mike Yates
Then they also have a moment in which if something. If they notice something, they know they have the ability to step in and help.
- [31:26]
Brian Yates
Yeah, we believe that everyone in our office has a voice. At the end of the day, it is ultimately Mike and I's decision. But everyone in our office has a platform to be heard and listened to and to bring suggestions that can maybe enhance how we do something to this firm and I. And we believe in celebrating that.
- [31:48]
Caitlin Peterson
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- [32:39]
Caroline Burke
But once you've created this web, how do you grow it? How do you add someone to that equation and kind of set them up to be a player in that system?
- [32:52]
Brian Yates
Well, I think it's identifying what the need is. The short answer is, we don't know. It's a new thing that we're trying to achieve. But what we are really proud of is we have a solid team that fills all of the immediate needs at the moment and we don't really want to be a huge office. I really enjoy being in the pit with everyone even. It's kind of funny, you know, we built this office and I have my own office and I just felt like I hated being in solitude and so I, I'm now outside with everyone else and I actually sit in the middle between, you know, all of the team. I think for us, you know, moving forward it really is just continuing to identify our needs and then catering towards those needs.
- [33:46]
Mike Yates
Yeah, I think the growth happens when we identify something that is lacking. I think the easiest one that we would see that we would think about adding on is possibly an in house architect that we feel would join our team that would add to another level. Then they would come in again as an expert in their field. But if they needed to jump in and do some drawings to finish up and hit a deadline, they could. Right. Or help out in some way. They could even add to the interiors and you know, we would push them on that side of things. Everybody has their specialties, but in the end it's really just a team effort.
- [34:22]
Brian Yates
And I think right now our immediate need is procurement. You know, we're, we're getting ready to open up for someone that just specializes in filling that gap for procurement. You know, we're trying to fill that need right now that we have lacking and currently everyone's kind of just joining in and trying to fill that. But you know, we need, we need someone that is dedicated towards that because.
- [34:45]
Mike Yates
I'm noticing the failures.
- [34:47]
Brian Yates
Yeah, we see the slipping, you know and I, and I think that this, this you know, idea of this web has really been kind of like at the end of the day it is a way for me to actually tangibly understand our, our company. And it shows us where we need to bring someone in and where we don't need to bring someone in. And instead of just having that pyramid of I'm the, you know, creative director or team, you know, and then having a team lead and then having a senior designer and then having a junior and an intermediate and a.
- [35:24]
Caroline Burke
What does any of that mean?
- [35:26]
Brian Yates
What does that mean? Question mark. I never understood, I could never grasp my head around it. And we did, you know, we have a business coach who is fantastic for us and he asks series of questions that really just make us think we call it, you know, he's almost like our business therapist, you know, and he just asks us questions and pulls out information. And I'm just like, I hear what you're saying, but I think we need to think about this differently. And he's like so intrigued by this new concept. Concept that I just keep going back to, but for some reason in my brain that just makes sense because, you know, what it shows to me is that we're all an equal. Because I can't do. I can't do everything. You know, in our previous, the firms that I was at, you know, I didn't get to do everything. I think that's why I was like, when we start this firm, I really want us to do all of it. You know, I want everyone to have a hand in everything because I think it's important not to just have that mundane day of doing the same thing over.
- [36:34]
Caroline Burke
You only do drawings. You only do. Yeah.
- [36:38]
Brian Yates
And so this is a hybrid for us because I don't want to do the same thing. That's what I love about this industry. And what we do at our firm is, you know, you can walk into the office and think your day is going to be one way and then it is 100% not that way ever, you know. And I feel like we're constantly on this, like, dance, throwing it back into to Mike's background. You know, we're in this constant dance of. Of different tasks that we do. And so when we started, I was like, I want everyone to do everything. And then quickly, you know, recently, we're just like, no, let's not have everyone do everything, but let's be really thoughtful about what the intention is of that person doing it. Even though they're going to have a hand in everything, they're going to. We want them to focus and specialize on one thing, but not do that one thing every single day until they are not here.
- [37:36]
Caroline Burke
I want to talk about clients for a second because I think that's in some ways very parallel, I would imagine, to employees. What makes for the right client for your firm today or what makes you say yes to a project now?
- [37:50]
Brian Yates
I think it's. I think it's really who they are. Financial maturity, I think, is always really key. You know, we want a client that loves design, but it's okay sitting back and knowing that we're going to bring them and deliver the expectation that they are really wanting. Right. I don't want someone that's going to second guess us constantly. I don't mind a conversation on pushing back. Right. I think that that only enhances a. I love someone that likes to deep dive into, well, what is it like? You know, let's understand this a little bit more. I might need a several different velvet colors in this, you know, to see. I think that that doesn't bother me. I just want someone that comes to the table that really trusts us, that likes what we have to offer. And I also want someone that can identify on our website or on our Instagram of an image that they like and why. And if you can't answ that, then you're not hiring us for us. You're hiring us for our ability to just get the job done.
- [39:01]
Caroline Burke
How much information do you need from a client to be able to kind of give them back those numbers when they're asking?
- [39:07]
Brian Yates
We're telling people averages up front, and then we're honing in on. On them. So before we actually get into the design process, you know, in that original, you know, meeting where we're showing them, you know, this game where we're talking about their questionnaire, where we're really taking any Pinterest or any clips or any that they might have saved that. That inspire them, you know, that's when we're talking about averages. And then the next meeting, we put together a floor plan, whether it's new construction or it's, you know, a rent, a full renovation with kind of a arbitrary layout based on what we're thinking, you know, all the checkboxes. Right. Of how to make this space a space. And then we put together average numbers based on our clients. So a sofa X, a side table X, a rug X. Those are all things that we kind of put together. And we say, hey, here's kind of where we're thinking, does this still align with you? And then that's a stopping point. And then from there, they say, this is great. We love this. You know, this is kind of. You know, we always say this is kind of the base, you know, and.
- [40:16]
Caroline Burke
Have you signed a contract yet?
- [40:18]
Brian Yates
Yes, of course.
- [40:19]
Caroline Burke
Okay. Okay. Okay.
- [40:20]
Brian Yates
And it's ever evolving to be tighter and tighter until the last day when they walk in and the whole house.
- [40:28]
Mike Yates
Is done and there are no surprises.
- [40:30]
Brian Yates
And we do that because of the fact that we both hate surprises. Hate surprises. Me, prizes. And Brian's the worst at surprises. I really am. But also, we before had it to where we did so much up front, and then we would talk about the numbers, and we were so excited to present. We were so excited for what we came up with. And then they thought that, you know, I was the Grinch and stole Christmas, and I don't like that. Feeling, you know, I don't like that feeling. And I was like, we have to figure out a way to change this, because I don't want to present something that has. That has come out of, like, months and months of work or weeks and weeks of work and.
- [41:16]
Caroline Burke
And passion and creative inspiration.
- [41:19]
Brian Yates
Yeah, exactly.
- [41:21]
Mike Yates
They're falling in love with.
- [41:22]
Brian Yates
We put our heart and soul into what we do, like, every single, you know, other designer out there. And I just don't want to deliver something that feels like a failure. And so I thought, hey, how can we keep changing this? And Mike's like, we gotta cast that net and just hone in and really, you know, have a bigger orb that gets smaller and smaller and smaller throughout the entire process. And I think the. That's the way to do it, because then when we present, we're spot on on the number. We're spot on on where we're going to go. And then the client's like, I love it, or I want to change this one thing or this two things, but for the most part, it's like we feel like it's a home run.
- [42:02]
Caroline Burke
Yeah. How many meetings with a client are you having as you continue to refine that vision?
- [42:09]
Mike Yates
Well, actually, I think it starts from the very beginning. And the moment they. They enter our website, it's built in a way to kind of guide them into the process and, you know, the. The journey and. And price points. You answer a question like, are you in this range? Are you in that range? You know, so we're talking about money from the very beginning before we even get to talk to you. Then I jump on the call and I'm, you know, what's your budget? And they're like, well, we don't really have one. And I go, actually, you do. So do you need help? Have you ever worked with somebody to help help establish a budget? And they go, no, I actually haven't. And I go, great. So that means they haven't worked with anybody. Right. So I don't have to ask that question. And then I'm like, okay, based on what you're telling me, and I looked at your house, and I did some research, and, you know, this is kind of a general number and range that we're in. Do you go in and continue the conversation? Yeah, that sounds great. Perfect. Then we get to actually see the space. Brian's walking through it, and they always want to know, well, how much do you think it's going to be? Based on Brian's educated guess, based on the construction, that the construction Knowledge he has. He's like, okay, you're actually a little bit more in this range, whether it's up or down, mostly up, just because they keep adding things, right. And there's that scope creep. And then. So from there, then we're doing a floor plan, and from that floor plan, like Brian said, we're showing specific. You know, this is how we think you could lay it out. You think about that. Based on that. Here are the individual rough numbers. And then they can see it starts to add up. People think, you know, there's a certain number comes out and they're like, well, that's the sofa and chairs. Why is it so expensive? You're like, well, it's actually not just a sofa and chairs. It's sofa, chairs, chandelier, rug, coffee table, books and accessories and table lamps and floor lamps. And all these things start coming up and they're like, oh, oh. And then you start explaining all of those things you see in a magazine that you're actually falling in love with.
- [44:04]
Brian Yates
Yeah, let's talk about why you like that.
- [44:06]
Mike Yates
It's all the little pieces. It's everything that makes it a home, not just. Not just a sofa. Right. And so then they start understanding and they also start seeing the numbers we're putting in front of them next to a sofa is not ridiculous.
- [44:19]
Caroline Burke
Right.
- [44:20]
Mike Yates
It's actually. It's actually stuff that they're used to that's seeing and actually sometimes even less than what they're used to.
- [44:25]
Brian Yates
This all adds up pretty fast.
- [44:26]
Mike Yates
It just adds up. And that's the educational process. Then that's where we start building even more trust with them. Right.
- [44:32]
Brian Yates
But it's also knowing from the beginning, evaluating what they have and what we should incorporate. Some. Some people have a lot, some people have zero. You know, it just depends on what is right for them. But, you know, we're always willing and, and excited to incorporate something that is meaningful to them.
- [44:50]
Caroline Burke
How are you thinking about profitability when you look at the projects that you take on on?
- [44:54]
Mike Yates
I mean, the profitability part, it goes back to Brian. You know, if we're passionate about it, the money's going to come, Right?
- [45:00]
Brian Yates
I agree.
- [45:00]
Mike Yates
There's a structure. You're. We're really looking for somebody who's, who's, who values our opinion. That's what you're paying for. You're paying for our time to design something that we know you're going to love. The end result based on our process, and it will be individually, you and your family. And that is my value. That we bring to the table. We also make money on the furniture because we're using that to incorporate and procure and install and all of those aspects. So if you're okay with this system that we have built for us so that we can support our team and our own lives and the families behind us that are helping us create these visions for you, then let's move forward. That's the profitability.
- [45:44]
Brian Yates
But our clients also see a monthly invoice of everyone that has worked on the project, how many hours they've worked on the project, what they're doing on the project, and then as far as any of the procurement stuff, you know, we have an itemized statement that shows every single item with the picture and how much they're paying from us.
- [46:04]
Caroline Burke
When you talk about that idea that, you know, a client is really signing on to pay for the vision, for the ideas, how does the way that you bill reflect that? Is this like an hourly charge for time? Are you charging a flat fee? And how do you talk about really what that, that methodology represents?
- [46:22]
Brian Yates
Yeah, I mean, again, I think that's from the start. We are an hourly firm. We have done a bit of hybrid before, and that's something that we're still kind of maybe thinking about. I think it goes back to always. We try one thing and see if it works and then, and keep kind of improving that. But right now we are an hourly firm. We are a tiered system based on, you know, my time, senior designer, junior designer. So everyone has their different hourly rate and that is up front and shown to the client from the beginning. We do an estimate of how many hours or how much it will be for our client for the project. And we give a range. It's, it's, you know, not an extreme range within maybe $10,000, but it's, it's based on, on previous similar projects and how many hours we put on those and what we know, how fast we are in our capability of all of that. And so they do have like a hard number. And we're really good about staying within that. And we also evaluate every month what hours we've spent. And I feel like we're really generous with when we think that maybe something's taken a little bit longer than it should, or we're really learning a new program to get better. You know, we'll eat some of that, but our clients will see that as a zero charge. So they see how many hours we'll do, which I think is actually really important so that they can. One we can have that data for future. But two, our clients can see that, hey, we're not just nickeling and diming you on everything. You know, in fact, we're probably really nice when it comes to how much we like what we actually charge every hours on work with Yates.
- [48:13]
Mike Yates
We don't charge you the full price.
- [48:14]
Brian Yates
Yeah. So to us, you know, we've had clients that needed a lot more handholding that, you know, we believe our word is. Is Bible. And so, you know, when we did that back in the day of a flat fee and a client took longer, you know, I didn't have the maturity to come up and say, hey, this is outside the scope. And this is, you know, this is going to be a added charge. You know, I feel like we love what we do. And then it just. I hate to say no. And so we just found that it just didn't work for us. Maybe because we weren't as diligent.
- [49:00]
Mike Yates
We get to ask this question a lot when we sit on a panel or something. And. And, you know, how do you charge? Right. Everybody wants to know, how do you charge? How do you do it? How do you. Because again, nobody does it the same.
- [49:09]
Brian Yates
Yeah.
- [49:09]
Mike Yates
And I always. My answer for this always is, how do you want to talk about money?
- [49:15]
Caroline Burke
Yes.
- [49:15]
Mike Yates
So if you're the type of person that doesn't like to talk about money, I would say hours. You know, hey, I spent this many hours. This is how much it took. Let's go. If you do don't mind talking about money and scope, then I would say a flat fee. And from all the research I've done, you actually end up making more. So but you have to be able to say, hey, this is outside of scope. This is the next part of it. This is how much we're gonna have to re. Agree upon this. Right.
- [49:41]
Brian Yates
Well, I also think for us, it's. I don't want to go back to the client and say, oh, this wasn't in the scope we're gonna have.
- [49:48]
Caroline Burke
This isn't included.
- [49:49]
Brian Yates
Yeah, More. Right. And one. That's kind of why we like the whole house. You know, whether it's new construction or it is a full renovation, you know, we won't just go in and do a kitch, because it always happens to where someone wants the living room, someone wants the dining room. And I just. I don't like that because the way that my head is, is when I'm in a project, I'm fully immersed in the project. And so I want to make all those decisions when we're when we're just immersed in it, the minute that we, you know, order everything and we're waiting, my mind is onto a next project. And so I don't want to recome back to that project and, and say, oh, now we need to figure out this, and now we need to add that. And it's like, man, I have a hard time with that stop and go. Because I do feel like I like that mentality of being in the project and really working out and then being out. Like that is the way I work. And I think that's the reason that, you know, we have these like micro bursts in our, in our office of, you know, we will work on this project and then we'll jump on this other project and then, you know, so it's not like, I mean, we're still weaving all of our projects at the.
- [51:08]
Mike Yates
Same time, but it goes back to the inspiration striking. Right? My struggle as a, as a boss on the, on the management side is the organized chaos that happens with creatives in the sense of, I can't just say, okay, on Tuesday from 12 to 4, Brian's going to, to create this beautiful design for this client. And so we can schedule that. And then on Thursday, he's going to have this inspiration spark moment. That's that, you know, you can't do that. Right. And so when, when you have these, these moments of creativity and inspiration that hits you, you're like, okay, go. Like, don't take them out of that.
- [51:45]
Caroline Burke
Don't stop until it kind of runs out.
- [51:47]
Brian Yates
Yeah, exactly.
- [51:48]
Mike Yates
So don't.
- [51:49]
Brian Yates
So true.
- [51:50]
Mike Yates
Don't trigger. You know, somebody's on the phone and you know, Dustin calls you. Hi, you know, how can I help you? Oh, I got, I had to talk to Brian. I have this thing. Great. He, he has time and tomorrow between 12, does that work for you? Oh, I need to talk to him right now. Sorry, he's, he's a little indisposed. I can have him call you when he's ready, but looking over, I don't think he's going to be ready today.
- [52:08]
Caroline Burke
Brian, like, as the person sort of in that creative flow, is that something you would be able to do for yourself or is it really helpful to have someone kind of creating that space for you? You?
- [52:19]
Brian Yates
I think it's always helpful to have a team that is helping you think of a celebrity. Right. Like, they have so many shields around them. And that's kind of what I think of it as what we're doing. It's like, do not disturb me right now. Like you know, there's so many times that, you know, Mike and I are supposed to go to dinner or something, and I'm like, I'm in this mode. Like, I'm fully in this, and I just. I can't right now. I can't.
- [52:44]
Mike Yates
And I'm like, you don't even love me. Me?
- [52:46]
Brian Yates
Yeah. And I'm like, I'll love you tomorrow.
- [52:51]
Caroline Burke
I wanted to kind of wind down a little bit by asking the two of you about your partnership and what, this kind of decade plus of working together, how has that challenged you, maybe? And also, where do you see yourselves really, like, flourishing because of this partnership?
- [53:10]
Brian Yates
We both have our own individual interests, and I think it's so important for us to be separate and identify as together. And I have, like, he'll hang out with his friends, and I'll hang out with my friends, and we'll hang out with our friends, and he'll go bowling. Mike's an avid bowler, so he travels all the time for bowling. And so we have these separations of weekends sometimes when he does that, and it's kind of just a. A way for us to have a little bit of a break. But then also, we don't have our own office. We're not.
- [53:45]
Mike Yates
Not.
- [53:45]
Brian Yates
We're collaborating together, but we're also not collaborating together. So I think it was really important for us to establish the roles and the, you know, expectations up front. And I think we keep saying that, but I think that's just the way that it works for us. It's just so important when you can say, this is the way I work. This is the way I need you to show up. This is the way that that is right for me. I feel like everyone always honors that, and it just helps for everything.
- [54:17]
Mike Yates
I mean, we do have a sense of what he's really good at, I'm not. And then what I'm really good at, he's not. And so when we're in sync, we're like a cog in the wheel that just works and fits. And it's almost. We know when we're on because it's effortless.
- [54:34]
Brian Yates
Yeah. And when we're not, that thing is.
- [54:36]
Mike Yates
Sparky noises that come up.
- [54:40]
Brian Yates
But we also make a rule that we don't fight at the office.
- [54:44]
Caroline Burke
I was going to ask about that. Like, how do you deal with that when you feel like you're not in sync about a work thing? We're about a life thing.
- [54:51]
Mike Yates
My coping mechanism is always humor. And so when there's a moment of tension, I'M always. I always say mom and dad are fighting. Yeah. Like, I run out, people laugh a little bit, and it kind of breaks the tension. I mean, there are moments. Walk away and. And just take a moment. Never, never have discussion in front of your team. I mean, it's almost. I never want to say a family. We're not a family. We are a team. But having the conversation, it's like, I need you to come over here for a moment and have a discussion, because this is an instant in which you overstood your boundaries, and this is my side of the business. And so I willing to hear your input. But in the end, you have agreed in the beginning that I make the decisions when it comes to these matters.
- [55:32]
Brian Yates
Yeah.
- [55:33]
Mike Yates
And what.
- [55:33]
Brian Yates
You know, that took a long time to learn. So what. What comes out of the mouth that's. Is saying this is like years of just working at it. It's. You know, we are not perfect. We are the type that we learn the hard way. We learn by our mistakes constantly.
- [55:50]
Mike Yates
Price of a lesson learned.
- [55:51]
Brian Yates
Yeah.
- [55:52]
Mike Yates
What I call it.
- [55:53]
Caroline Burke
Is there anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to talk about on the show? Is there anything I haven't asked you that I should have.
- [56:00]
Brian Yates
Have? I think one thing that I would say is it's really important to find your group. I say that for all the people that are listening right now that we feel like we're on an. On an island by ourself. And I think design firms in general always almost have that mentality. And what I love about where we live here in Dallas is we have formed an amazing group of friends that all have their own businesses, that there are 13 different design firms that we get together every month. And that has been the best thing that has ever happened. And this has been going on for only a year now. And we support each other. We love each other. We call ourselves the Design Assembly Group. Now.
- [56:51]
Mike Yates
In Design Mafia.
- [56:53]
Brian Yates
Yeah, we want to be the mafia, really, but really it's. It's. Have you gone through this problem? Have you experienced this? What would you do in this situation? This was a good moment that I'm proud of for the month. This is a bad moment, you know, because there's so many times we have a group text message that they're like, hey, I'm experiencing this. Do y' all have a solution that. That we might be able to do, you know, or. I need a vendor for xyz. And I just feel like it's just been such a lifeline line for us that has helped us grow. And I, I think that it just helps to the rising tides in our industry. You know, instead of just being a lone person on an island feeling like you're Wilson, you know, I think it's. I think it's really important to have a party on an island, you know, instead.
- [57:47]
Caroline Burke
What does success mean to each of you?
- [57:50]
Mike Yates
Oh, gosh, I, you know, everybody. I've heard you ask this question before, and I've asked myself, what does that mean? Success to me is a creative firm that enjoys coming to work, that is excited to bring new ideas to the table, that creates an experience for clients that enjoy the process and the building of their dreams. What about you, Brian?
- [58:20]
Brian Yates
Can I be quite honest? I don't really know what success looks to me because I think that I'm always. I'm always evolving and I'm always interested in different things and I'm always changing. And I know that sounds so generic, but I'm just always trying to figure it out.
- [58:37]
Caroline Burke
Have you had different definitions of success at different phases of the business?
- [58:42]
Brian Yates
Oh, I think so. I think that, that I'm very goal driven and I feel like success is checking off that goal that we have put into place and we've worked extremely hard to achieve. You know, I, I feel like success was our first Kips Bay in 2021. You know, that was just a huge honor because I remember being at my first Kips Bay in like, I think it was 2014 or 13. I don't remember thinking, I want this to be me.
- [59:13]
Caroline Burke
Right?
- [59:14]
Brian Yates
Yeah, exactly. And so instead of thinking of success as a ultimate finish, I think of it as these baby steps that I'm just like, really proud of something that I've achieved.
- [59:26]
Mike Yates
And just like our process is, it's a start and stop. You, you create a goal for yourself and then you get there and now you're like, okay, I did that. Now what can I do?
- [59:39]
Caitlin Peterson
That's our show for today. Thank you so much for listening.
- [59:43]
Caroline Burke
If you'd like to keep up with.
- [59:44]
Caitlin Peterson
The latest design industry news, check out new products or browse job openings, head on over to businessofhome.com and if you're enjoying trade tales, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show. If you have a note for the show or a story of your own to share, I'd love to hear from you and you can email me@tradetalesusinessofhome.com TradeTales is produced by me, Kaitlin Peterson and Caroline Burke. This episode was edited by Caroline Burke and Michael Castaneda. Our theme music is by Kyle Scott Wilson.
- [60:16]
Caroline Burke
Thanks again for listening, and I'll see.
- [60:18]
Caitlin Peterson
You back here next week.